Guild Wars 2

Yes, it is true. Just that the damage distribution is upsetted and that DPS build dishes out more damage in the long run. Blackwater will lose to mostly builds with:

GS
PU
Torch
Good Armor
Good Health
Good Power DPS
Good Condition

So basically a hybrid would be able to beat it.

If you doubt me, go and take all these pointers out and try it.

Anyhow, Blackwater is a very good build, and it’s creator is even more respected. Never forget Natsu’s contribution to the community even if his build ever decides to slip under its postion.

Ah, I meant that any sort of above average Power DPS PU builds have the chance to easily make the Blackwater build to be pushed back. I was talking about other Mesmers, but I don’t really think other classes can get the Blackwater downed very easily. Plus Blackwater can do some serious damage with warlock if it crits, so it isn’t a worry to face a bit tankier spec.

Edit: Against higher Power DpS speccs for any class, Blackwater has to be on its feet for the whole time, which becomes a pain for me lol. Still effective tho.

Hmm, which classes using glass cannon specs are you having the most trouble with?

EnderzShadow.2506:

I’ll make it easy on you guys, I would love to hear

“Enderz, youre crazy, this build is incredible and will only get better with gear.”

“Enderz, you just need more practice.”

And to be fair the above are true.

But, what I want to know, will I always struggle against HIGH DPS builds even with the ‘more practice and better gear’.

Enderz, you just need more practice.

The blackwater build, when played appropriately well (I suppose counting in the tweaks I make when I run it) will never lose in a 1v1 situation to any class other than an ultra high dps phantasm mesmer. That is the single build that can beat it.

As an aside, you generally want to completely disregard anything menace says until it’s independently verified, just a good rule of thumb.

Yeah, but there is no one preventing you from going and tryin it out. I am telling you the literal truth. I have seen countless of times Blackwater making one mistake against a Power DPS specced build for any class, and it suddenly was down in less than 5-10 seconds. It just shows you that you need to keep on your toes the whole fight if you decide to fight against a more Power DPS oriented build

@Pyros. I wish you would stop pointing me out in conversations when I didn’t do anything offensive. if you could, try to not say those things anymore.

Let’s make a deal menace. You stop spreading misinformation, and I’ll stop calling you out for it.

Unless you really really really mess up really really really badly and blow all ur CD all at once…. Which should never happen as there’s a billion defensive things you can do if u have trouble staying alive…. With decent play you should be fine. Blackwater is actually one of the safest and most well balanced builds you can take to WvW roaming.

What might contribute to stupid mistakes is not knowing the opponents class or build, like at all, I admit I was downed once cuz of something like that

I can almost sleep in 1v1 against most classes. There is a phant mesmer on blackgate that always gives me a run for my money. Condi necros are the only class that I actively try to avoid. Too much trouble IMO.

I’m not saying I have never been killed by a thief/warrior/engi/ect, it happens, but the majority of fights I win.

The Black Water is an amazing build. When apparently run by anyone but Menace. There are builds for all classes that are on par with it and thus skill becomes the major factor which is why Menace is having the experience of being beatn to like he apparently is. You just need more practice is all. ^^

Ok, instead of makin assumptions, why don’t you guys duel a PU hybrid spec against Blackwater build? I am seriously not kidding. I am saying that the majority of the time, the hybrid is able to get the advantage and win just because of the fact taht it has better DPS uptime in all areas to use against the Blackwater. Like I said, I respect blackwater, and it is amazing, but it has some weakeness, and I would like to address that that weakness happen to be other builds with good armor, and Good Power DPS with Good condi removal.

Edit: Again, like I said before in two of my previous posts, I respect Blackwater, but his build has some flaws, and all I am ever doing in this post is pointing out those flaws. If you don’t believe go and TEST.

I have a better idea, since you seem to be the odd one out in these discussions, why don’t you explain in detail what a typical Blackwater Mesmer would do in a fight and how your “hybrid build” is better. I want to know. I really do.

Better yet, I’d like to hear two of you discuss it! Set it up Pyro!!

Fraps some PvP like YISHS does and explain what your doing.

OK, I will explain as best I can, since I have some technical difficulties with my computer and need to get that fixed as I have said in my other post.

Also, before I start, I never said that MY hybrid build comes into play here. I meant AnY hybrid build

Best way to defeat PU blackwater is to be able to cleanse as Much conditions as he can, which is just trait with torch.

With some form of good Power DPs Phantasm, you are able to keep the pressure of around 3k phantasms against the build, and if you have good crit chance, you can easily do 100 bleed stacks and around 1000 confusion with good condi damage. Now taking into account that blackwater mostly focuses on Condition, which means he lacks most of other DPS parts.

Blackwater build usually does about 130 bleed ticks and around 1-2k confusion, while having around 2k phantasm attacks

While a hybrid build can do 100 bleed ticks with about 1k confusion and 3-4k phantasms against blackwater.

Not much difference here, except the fact that hybrid has better damage compile over time, which means it is able to eventually finish off the blackwater. Not accounting the confusion, because it is very easy to cleanse these days with Mage apprently. Also, you can try to dodge the scepter attacks.

If a good hybrid build has over 2700 armor and around same health as blackwater, then it is all set to challenge it.

Now I’m not sayin either one is gonna beat the other, I’m just saying the hybrid has the better chance of beating the blackwater. I don’t know what part of all of my previous posts you didn’t understand, but this is as best I can to explain it.

Thank you for taking all the time to say all that.

So your argument is that a hybrid of the PU build is much better damage.

What I didn’t understand is how you mentioned Torch against a Blackwater PU Build.
The BW Pu Build does use torch as well.

And then I didn’t understand when you said “pointers” as in “tips” —- you gave me no tips and no pointers. You just said that about any class in game that is hybrid will be a tough fight for a BW PU build mesmer. I think thats a bit of a stretch…

Sorry for not clarifying so much. Typing hurt my hand a bit. lol.

Ok, I learned from experience that if you don’t have at leastaround 3 stealths against blackwater, (Torch,Devoy, MI)you will lose so very often. I learned the hard way. Torch is good condi cleanser while being exceptional burst when you become a hybrid spec. I’ve seen my torch burst do around 1k to blackwater and sometimes way more than that.

POinters: When fighting Blackwater, go with GS. The counter part is ginormous. Itt’s not even funny. The control and damage taht comes with GS rivals that of Blackwater, and when you summon Berserker in stealth against Blackwater or any other build, it is devastating. Then follow up with iWave and you have the makings of putting up insane damage while maintaining a couple of phantasms. Also include torch, it is just a must against fight with these builds. Veil is unnecessary. Just try to preserve all your skills wisely, and replace veil with some other kind of useful skill.

See you must understand EnderzShadow since you are new to our loverly Mesmer Forum Family.

Menace has already posted PvP footage of himself. It is hilarious please go watch it on his build thread that I must commend him for not self bumping it in over three WEEKS. Amazing.

Also, find the video of Pyro Vs Menace in which if I remember correctly Pyro uses the BW to pretty much decimate the poor fellow.

Also note that Menace seems to have it out for other Mesmer builds. He loves making points about how a certain Mesmer build can’t stand up or will kill this other Mesmer build. Not really sure why he as it out for his “favorite class” (he actually came to us after the Necro forum continuously told him he has no idea what he is talking about and even though we keep doing it and explaining to him and in Pyro’s case showing him by beating him up A LOT he simply is staying for some reason).
Condition removal doesn’t really matter because of how fast the BW and other Condition Builds can apply them. It makes it harder but hardly is a weakness of the build. Also, PU builds are pretty much the bane of high DPS jobs because well we hide and get protection and regen while hiding.

Also, you need to realize that Menace has this deranged idea that hybrid builds (while completely not viable on Mesmers) are the win all kill all builds.

Many of us have actually tested the BW build (another thing you need to know is Menace is kinda infamous for saying he tested extensively and then asking for advice about stuff that if he actually had tested it he would have figured out on his own).

Menace yet again you are wrong. Please stop spreading wrong information.

This post felt good after so long of not really posting anything. ^^

themenaceofseventhdimension.2075:

OK, I will explain as best I can, since I have some technical difficulties with my computer and need to get that fixed as I have said in my other post.

Also, before I start, I never said that MY hybrid build comes into play here. I meant AnY hybrid build

Best way to defeat PU blackwater is to be able to cleanse as Much conditions as he can, which is just trait with torch.

With some form of good Power DPs Phantasm, you are able to keep the pressure of around 3k phantasms against the build, and if you have good crit chance, you can easily do 100 bleed stacks and around 1000 confusion with good condi damage. Now taking into account that blackwater mostly focuses on Condition, which means he lacks most of other DPS parts.

Blackwater build usually does about 130 bleed ticks and around 1-2k confusion, while having around 2k phantasm attacks

While a hybrid build can do 100 bleed ticks with about 1k confusion and 3-4k phantasms against blackwater.

Not much difference here, except the fact that hybrid has better damage compile over time, which means it is able to eventually finish off the blackwater. Not accounting the confusion, because it is very easy to cleanse these days with Mage apprently. Also, you can try to dodge the scepter attacks.

If a good hybrid build has over 2700 armor and around same health as blackwater, then it is all set to challenge it.

Now I’m not sayin either one is gonna beat the other, I’m just saying the hybrid has the better chance of beating the blackwater. I don’t know what part of all of my previous posts you didn’t understand, but this is as best I can to explain it.

That makes sense… Except:

Combat in gw2 is highly skill based, especially high active defense professions like the mesmer. It depends on the players to decide who wins, not builds.

themenaceofseventhdimension.2075:

Blackwater will lose to mostly builds with:

GS
PU
Torch
Good Armor
Good Health
Good Power DPS
Good Condition

So basically a hybrid would be able to beat it.

If this were true, ANY build can beat it, which is true, as its based on skill and not build.

That makes sense… Except:

It makes no sense

Back then, I didn’t know kitten about PU builds. Now I do. Hexxen, I have yet to battle you. Wanna duel for some fun in Arena? Just for fun. also to explain during the fights taht Hybrids ARe viable when paired up with PU.

It’s not like Hybrids can’t do everything you stated that BW can do.

Apply fast condi
Do serious Power DPS
Be very defensive

Again, you guys never Tested while claiming I am feeding bad info. In a sense, you guys are dismissing your own questions that you are wondering(Except Enderz so far). This is the best I can to explain to you guys. Other than that, you have to test for yourselves or just PM in game to duel/talk about it. I play over the weekends btw.

EnderzShadow.2506:

about other classes that are glass cannon’ish builds.

OP, my reply is not meant to insult your skill or anything, just want to shed some light on the matter.

In principle, any condition build is a hard counter to glass-cannon build, because:

- they’re built to last for attrition fight with high defensive stats (they are tough and/or healthy with the use of Rabid, Carrion, and/or Dire gear)

- they deal condition dmg which ignores armor whereas GC builds need to crit thru armor and want to finish the fight as soon as they can. Thus the longer the fight gets, the more advantage the condition build gets.

Blackwater build is a really tough build to beat because it has both the passive defense (stats from gear) and active defense (block, stealth, boons, etc.). Decoy and Torch #4 are pretty much your 2 reset buttons when things go bad.

So I find it surprising that you have trouble fighting against bursty builds. My advice is to control the pace of the fight to your advantage by timing your block/disengage skills (bursty builds usually have hard and fast pace but if they lose the momentum, they’re losing the battle overall).

Now about the hybrid builds matter that Menace raised in this thread.
My view is that hybrid builds are not easy to play and master compared to more purist/specialist builds, that means if you encounter someone’s playing a hybrid build well. They must have great skill and they beat u because they outplay you, not because their build is better than Blackwater. Blackwater is a great build and it has been proved over and over many times.

There is no best build in general imo, only builds that best suit your style.

This is waht I was trying to say. But I guess I tried to say it by bringing up Hybrids. Which was a fair example in its own way. If anyone has any more questions about anything for me. PM in game. I would be happy to answer and get in some friendly duels to pass the time.

@ Edit: Again, reason I haven’t been able to post my dueling vids is because of technical error. I already have the updated build ready for WvW, and I have created a build that suits in PvP.

On a somewhat related note, a way to beat Blackwater i can think of:
- u need good condition removal (kinda obvious going up against a condition build)
- u need high single target dps (AoE will work against you as you keep killing clones)
- u need to attack the right mesmer

So a phantasm build would be your best bet (as Pyro already pointed out).

Or you can go condition build yourself and see who’s more tanky and can stack conditions faster.

The only class that really gives me trouble on the blackwater are thieves, actually let me rephrase that ‘good’ thieves. The fact they can C’n’D off any clone makes it hard to track them down, they have big burst dmg and if things are not going well will go to stealth to clear condi’s/regen health and get some distance to reset the fight and try again.

I tried playing my old shatter build and it was hilarious how kittene it was compared to blackwater. Feels to me like they stealth nerfed shatter damage, not to mention staying visible for long periods gets u loaded up with conditions that you cant get rid of. Plus the blurred frenzy nerf.

So, I’ll just put down a quick analysis of how the blackwater build functions, and how to beat it.

The build applies conditions from several sources, but the most potent of these sources are clone deaths and the scepter torment block. However, both of these work much better if your enemy actually attacks you. Clones can be force-exploded, but there’s no guarantee that they will be in range, and so a careful opponent can avoid the on-deaths if they avoid damaging the clones.

However, with the exception of phantasm mesmers (for the most part) in order to kill you, they will have to attack you. This means they can get hit with your conditions. If a super bursty thief jumps on you, you can hit them with the block, a couple clones, and stealth out. Same deal with a warrior or engie or w/e. If they are actually attacking you, you counter with conditions.

A phantasm mesmer beats the build because they never have to attack. They can simply summon phantasms and let those beat the crap out of you, and most of your offense is disabled due to their lack of direct offense.

Hybrid builds are weak against this build simply because they offer nothing in abundance. This build has strong condition cleansing, and that means the partial conditions applied by a hybrid build will not be too powerful, and this build also has extremely high armor/good protection uptime, and so the partially strong damage that the hybrid build applies will simply not cut it to kill this build.

That being said, well played (non-phantasm) mesmers can be a royal pita to take down with this build because it’s so incredibly hard to actually get the block torment onto the right target. You have to use the block with specific skills to get it to work. Good candidates are chaos storm, confusing images, obvious shatters, and greatsword autoattacks. Once you land the torment, fights generally get finished rapidly.

You mention how it takes a long time to ramp up damage. This is not necessarily the case. The damage ramps up however quickly you are able to start applying counters. Often I’ll dismantle people within the first 10 seconds of a fight because of how offensive they go. Torment block + several clone explosions + confusing images + chaos storm can often kill lower hp classes outright (I have 2000 condition damage when roaming).

So in more explanatory terms, the rapid damage ramp-up is achieved by chaining together multiple quick condition applications. Drop a phantasm, get burning from the prestige, proc the block on an attack, a couple of dodges + chaos storm + confusing images can all be accomplished within 3-4 seconds, and that applies a massive condition load.

The key about this damage is you can’t always launch it right away. Direct damage specs will be able to jump right into combat, but this build needs to counter. If you face a person that just jumps right onto you, then you can counter immediately, but against someone that goes a little slower, you have to match their pace. You get a little more setup, a little more posturing, but once they go in, your counter burst is what kills.

Edit: PvP frapsed vs menace is a been there, done that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KEg07K7q7g

Only the last fight is using blackwater.

keenlam.4753:

EnderzShadow.2506:

about other classes that are glass cannon’ish builds.

OP, my reply is not meant to insult your skill or anything, just want to shed some light on the matter.

In principle, any condition build is a hard counter to glass-cannon build, because:

- they’re built to last for attrition fight with high defensive stats (they are tough and/or healthy with the use of Rabid, Carrion, and/or Dire gear)

- they deal condition dmg which ignores armor whereas GC builds need to crit thru armor and want to finish the fight as soon as they can. Thus the longer the fight gets, the more advantage the condition build gets.

Blackwater build is a really tough build to beat because it has both the passive defense (stats from gear) and active defense (block, stealth, boons, etc.). Decoy and Torch #4 are pretty much your 2 reset buttons when things go bad.

So I find it surprising that you have trouble fighting against bursty builds. My advice is to control the pace of the fight to your advantage by timing your block/disengage skills (bursty builds usually have hard and fast pace but if they lose the momentum, they’re losing the battle overall).

Now about the hybrid builds matter that Menace raised in this thread.
My view is that hybrid builds are not easy to play and master compared to more purist/specialist builds, that means if you encounter someone’s playing a hybrid build well. They must have great skill and they beat u because they outplay you, not because their build is better than Blackwater. Blackwater is a great build and it has been proved over and over many times.

There is no best build in general imo, only builds that best suit your style.

I’m not offended. And thank you for explaining that.

Multiple Bursty DPS specs beat me this last week. It made me think that maybe they were my bane lol. Maybe I should just except that they were my hard counter.

I wanted to know that I wouldn’t regret the time I spent. And I wanted to know what I would expect.

I love you guys. Best community ever. Someone even offered to duel with me to get an idea for what I was doing wrong. In WoW forums they would tell you in no certain order that “You are a waste of life, kitten, QQmoar and gdiaf.”

What a refreshing difference.
Thanks

Pyroatheist.9031:

-snip-

Just want to add Weakness is a good part of the build defense as well, just like you can almost perma-cripple your enemies, you can perma-weaken them, and thats (statistically speaking) 25% dmg reduction for you.

themenaceofseventhdimension.2075:

Yes, it is true. Just that the damage distribution is upsetted and that DPS build dishes out more damage in the long run. Blackwater will lose to mostly builds with:

GS
PU
Torch
Good Armor
Good Health
Good Power DPS
Good Condition

So basically a hybrid would be able to beat it.

If you doubt me, go and take all these pointers out and try it.

Anyhow, Blackwater is a very good build, and it’s creator is even more respected. Never forget Natsu’s contribution to the community even if his build ever decides to slip under its postion.

What you just posted is crap.

themenaceofseventhdimension.2075:

Back then, I didn’t know kitten about PU builds. Now I do. Hexxen, I have yet to battle you. Wanna duel for some fun in Arena? Just for fun. also to explain during the fights taht Hybrids ARe viable when paired up with PU.

It’s not like Hybrids can’t do everything you stated that BW can do.

Apply fast condi
Do serious Power DPS
Be very defensive

Again, you guys never Tested while claiming I am feeding bad info. In a sense, you guys are dismissing your own questions that you are wondering(Except Enderz so far). This is the best I can to explain to you guys. Other than that, you have to test for yourselves or just PM in game to duel/talk about it. I play over the weekends btw.

Its not about testing in this case, its about experience. Hexxen just hit the nail on the head, a lot of the “advice” you just gave is crap on so many levels. Don’t do that.

Menace you never will battle me. We live on opposite sides of the world and the times when you have always said you are on I will be at work or asleep. Also, I have not played in almost a month thanks to FFXIV coming out. I plan on coming back for Halloween though cause IT IS FREAKN HALLOWEEN. (I happen to have graduate at the college in the states that holds the largest Halloween Party in the nation and thus it is my favorite holiday and GW2 did it really well last year.)

First, I hold dearly to my truth that what I am saying is legit. I have tested extensively with my Hybrid for around 2 months, and around 60% of the Mesmers I fought happen to be Condition PU builds, stuff like Osicat’s and Natsu’s. Again, if you don’t believe I am telling the truth, Test it out. Bring a PU Hybrid spec against Blackwater. It is a fair fight to watch. It might be hard to play at first, but when you start to be able to see that anything can happen, you will win. Hybrids are not solely on Build. It is around 60% build and around 40% skill. You guys are saying that everything I posted is crap is pretty sad to see from my point of view, when I doubt you guys have played against a Blackwater with a hybrid as much as I have. I’m not trying to argue here at all, just saying you calling me in*Experienced*(as you have suggested) is not a fair argument either. I admit I can’t explain as well as I would face to face, but that doesn’t mean you can dismiss the truth. If you choose not to believe it, well, I seriously don’t care. I really don’t. It’s up to you guys, but if you say that waht I am saying is crap when you guys barely touched on this subject, is what makes me a bit annoyed to say the least.

EDIT: Since you guys seem to want Proof so much, I will do duelin in PvP against All PU Condi specced classes. I don’t approve of WvW battles in these situations since I can’t gurantee I will meet them in combat, but however, there are at least 1 blackwater Mesmer in each dueling servers I go to. So it will be easy to gather dueling footages. Again, this is not to discourage the Blackwater, but instead, to prove that Hybrids are under appreciated by A Lot of people. Especially Mesmers.

EnderzShadow.2506:

I am not talking about other mesmers. I am talking about other classes that are glass cannon’ish builds.

No offense intended, but I don’t understand what your saying. The blackwater build does use torch, and pu—and has good condition and good health.

I don’t know what you mean by ‘pointers’.

I have respect for natsu, talked to him a few times, nice guy.

I’d say that’s the way it’s supposed to be. High damage, ideally, should soft counter condition builds, while condition builds should soft counter high armor bunkering (and bunkers counter high damage). That isn’t always the case though the way the game is currently balanced though.

I appreciate menace because he always elicits an in-depth response from Pyro that I actually learn something from

Hexxen, on the other hand, seems to have a serious crush on menace and enjoys picking on him any chance he can get. Their writing style is actually very similar (awful).

The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.
~ Stephen Hawking

I like this quote. On this forum, (especially when you are new) it is almost impossible to figure out who actually has enough knowledge to back up their claims.
I love Pyro’s in-depth answers as well.

Joonks.7501:

I appreciate menace because he always elicits an in-depth response from Pyro that I actually learn something from

Hexxen, on the other hand, seems to have a serious crush on menace and enjoys picking on him any chance he can get. Their writing style is actually very similar (awful).

I am not a native speaker of English. What is Menace’s excuse?

He’s obviously very young – so maybe keep that in mind when you’re belittling him on the forum.

Joonks.7501:

He’s obviously very young – so maybe keep that in mind when you’re belittling him on the forum.

“Decent Human Being” is not something that has been used to describe me very much. ^^ So even though we know he is below 19 (he said some place here back a bit) I will not stop how I attack him because youth needs to realize that when they do something wrong (spreading of misinformation) that it is not ok and since he refuses to listen to the rash/calm people (Pyro/Chaos) I try he other way of being a total prick. Which also seems to not be working thus he is simply a lost cause and others need to be told not to listen to him.

To the OP: practice using your stealth carefully and reacting to your opponent. Don’t blow your cooldowns, such as using phase retreat just to get a clone out, sometimes saving it that extra 2s to counter your opponents burst, or saving your decoy to when you know they are going to hit you with something you cannot dodge/escape from.

The amount of ageis you can get from Prismatic Understanding and Chaos Storm will really help, especially against glass thieves, who often fully focus on getting that backstab off. Scepter 2 while they are in stealth then dodge once you see the block message. You won’t be able to catch them if they run, but if you time your CD’s right, you should have no issues. Glassy warriors are over buffed at the moment due to anet giving them such huge sustain, just take note of their animations and keep yourself safe while slowly wearing them down. Clone death traits often help against warriors due to the huge cleaving attacks. Glassy engines are all about that burst, try to avoid the immobilize and make them waste the burst on a clone (watch the vulnerability, this is where a lot of the damage comes from). Condi spam necros can be difficult if they are good, you have to use your stealths carefully to prevent their main skills getting you. Mesmers are a pain, but as a mesmer you will know what to avoid and deal with.

Pryo; I found against phantasm mesmers to keep staff clones up and let the winds of chaos bounces kill their phantasms. It isn’t exactly reliable, but if you can avoid the burst and keep the situation under control it helps. A phantasm/lockdown hybrid build would be tedious though.

Oh 1 thing I learned the hard way recently, "Warrior’s Signet of Might will render the Scepter block useless so watch out for it, I had some nasty surprises with it as this warrior kept CC me with his attacks and they just went past my block T_T. I used Moa to kill him eventually LOL, so no hard feeling now.

@ Hexxen. So you say that I am feeding everyone bad info, when you yourself have barely the knowledge to back up your talk in the discussion of hybrids, while I have been trying to embedd myself into Hybrids since a few months after I got this game, which was last December. I don’t get it. I admit again that I can’t spread my knowledge as well as I would have wanted to in the discussion of hybrids and how they compare to other Pure Builds, but that doesn’t mean you know any Better than me in these conversations. In fact you will probably have lesser knowledge than me in this matter specifically. Now, I still respect you, but when you act like I am a troll even in an area where I dedicated myself to, that is where you step over the line. I would hope that you would stop acting like everything I say about hybrids are false.

Hybrids are the definition of Harmony of two areas, mainly Power and Condi. Many people, and I mean a lot of people, think that hybrids will in the end be lacking just because they Think that it will be overwhelmed in a certain area against a build that Focuses on that area very well. You see, people only go upto that part and stop thinking completely. They forget that that build which Focuses on One area will also be lackluster in another Area that the hybrid posesses, and if the Hybrids is well balanced, than it is capable of overthrowing that Specific Build completely. Now I can back this up by the months of time I spent with Hybrids, but of course you will deny it again, so I have proposed a plan that I will try to get a montage of PvP duels against All Pure Mesmer Builds I can find in Duelin Arenas. If that is not good for you, I don’t know what will be.

Again, I am sorry if I couldn’t have explained as best as I could. I am not comfortable in spreading my ideas behind a computer screen as much as I am directly talking to someone face to face. This is my biggest flaw in gaming. I wish I could have got off to a clean start in this discussion, but I guess people had to point out every little word mistake I made. But I believe it will only help me in the long run, so thank you to all people who pointed me out.

(Chaos,Pyro,Hexxen,Xavi) I’m not trolling here. I sincerely mean it. I really thank for pointing it out, even if it annoys me from time to time because that is not what I was aiming for in conversations. I understand my train of thought isn’t picked up by you guys completely. Plz continue to point out bad stuff when it needs to be pointed out. Only way I can truly learn how to explain stuff over the computer.

themenaceofseventhdimension.2075:

(Chaos,Pyro,Hexxen,Xavi) I’m not trolling here. I sincerely mean it.

sigh We know. That’s what makes it so bad.

How can I make it up to you guys? I feel so bad/awkward/glad/sad at the same time reading your post. It’s a weird feeling. Plz. How can I prove that Hybrids are good while maintaining your point of views too? How!!!

I would like to point out that while I do in fact think hybrids are not viable because you “if they excel in one area they are lackluster in another” can be used about hybrids saying that they are simply mediocre(<- this spelled right) in all areas. You apex build for one says you can do 100 a tick bleed but the build I run has an almost 300 a tick regen so?.

Feel free to prove me wrong. Make a video of you facing good/skilled mesmers/other jobs and beating them and that will sure kill/change my point of view to yours. Another thing you need to keep in mind is that you always compare to other pure mesmer builds. What is good against another mesmer build may not be good against the bulk of the other classes and most of us care more about that than killing other mesmers.

The real point that I got so upset about is how you said (weither you meant it or not) that the BW can be beatn by pretty much everything out there. (Your first post)

The reason we know this is wrong is because Pyro,Chaos and myself and probably Xavi have ran the BW and we know FOR A FACT you are wrong that it can be beatn so easily and has so many weaknesses.

I have always wondered what Real good players are like. I keep seeing bad to mediocre and just below good players in dueling arenas. It was kind of boring and a pain for my comprehension part of my thoughts. I know a good player when I see one by comparing people like Pyros and Osicat and Vesu and Seven Mirror to other average players, but I have been seeing Tooo Mucchhh average players, that I am seriously starting to doubt myself whether I can spot a good player until they hit me right in the eye. I need you guys’ feedbacks or help in how to Find good players to show you guys something.

Also, I am very very very very very very very very sorry that I have disrespected the BW build. I saw some minor flaws and felt that I had a reason to speak to you guys about it. I guess I got a lot hyped up and felt the need to stress the importance of these things and said them as some Huge Major problems for BW. It came out as me wanting to disown the BW build. I guess it all started because I had been getting some good success on how the beat an Awesome build like BW and was getting too hyped up to tell you guys and see if you had already known… Sorry to Natsu, Pyros, Hexxen, Xavi, Chaos, Alissah, Jportell, and many more for paining you guys with my short thinking when posting online. I gotta kitten realize that type/talking over the computer is not the best way to bring out my thoughts completely. Sorry again.

Good builds are designed with a specific role in mind and based on a vivid idea. You can’t make a hybrid build just for the sake of being hybrid.

The problem with hybrid builds lies with its very definition. How do you define a hybrid build?
If it’s about dmg sources (direct and condition) then its really hard to define hybrid because ALL builds deal both types of damage (just differ in the proportions).

Another way to look at hybrid builds is the dual-role/function that build could perform effectively (like playing 2 roles at a same time). And if such a hybrid build does indeed exist, it would be very skill-demanding, not easy to pick up for an average player. And this is probably why hybrid builds are not popular.

I understand your PoV keenlam, but after around 2-3 months of playing hybrids and trying to understand how the heck they work, I have came to the conclusion that Hybrids lie in a very very very fine line of Stats harmony, where one stat is not too much as to destroy the other parts, which I generally felt that the Pure builds were in a sense doing. Getting the Major advantage in one area, while doing poor to mediocre in another. I realized that there is a certain Trait setup that BEst suits a hybrid mesmer, and a certain weapon setup that Best support a hybrid Mesmer. Right now, in the current Meta, I felt that the Best way to become a hybrid mesmer is to Become a PU Mesmer. Standard 20/20/30/0/0. This is where it gets tricky. Finding the right armor combo is the most hardest part I endured. I think I probably messed around with At leasst 30-40 stats combinations to come to the conclusion that is show in my build, but even then I found out that more could be improved to balance the two weapon sets, so I set to work with my build again and came to another build stats change that was at least 2 time better than before for me. I wish to show you guys it right now, but I hope I can be patient enough to wait until I get ready to present a vid.

LOL Pyro, that youtube vid of you vs. menace was hilarious.

“Why you use OP build Pyro?!?!?”
“Can you beat me without using stuns?!?!!”

xD Hilarious.

Yes, I acted like a 3 year old back then. Again, sorry. My bad entirely. I deserved that anyways back then.

Pyroatheist.9031:

EnderzShadow.2506:

I’ll make it easy on you guys, I would love to hear

“Enderz, youre crazy, this build is incredible and will only get better with gear.”

“Enderz, you just need more practice.”

And to be fair the above are true.

But, what I want to know, will I always struggle against HIGH DPS builds even with the ‘more practice and better gear’.

Enderz, you just need more practice.

The blackwater build, when played appropriately well (I suppose counting in the tweaks I make when I run it) will never lose in a 1v1 situation to any class other than an ultra high dps phantasm mesmer. That is the single build that can beat it.

As an aside, you generally want to completely disregard anything menace says until it’s independently verified, just a good rule of thumb.

I beat blackwater builds constantly with my 10/30/30 hybrid build, I push out more dmg with everything I got, compared to their conditions. However, I don’t think they were of Natsu’s caliber, but I’ve met some quite good players that I didn’t have any problem beating.
I actually switched to a 10/30/30 hybrid after running the blackwater build, and getting completely smashed by aforementioned hybrid maybe it just suits my playstyle, or maybe it’s better, I can’t say, but it fits my playstyle perfectly.

Dietzen.6127:

Pyroatheist.9031:

EnderzShadow.2506:

I’ll make it easy on you guys, I would love to hear

“Enderz, youre crazy, this build is incredible and will only get better with gear.”

“Enderz, you just need more practice.”

And to be fair the above are true.

But, what I want to know, will I always struggle against HIGH DPS builds even with the ‘more practice and better gear’.

Enderz, you just need more practice.

The blackwater build, when played appropriately well (I suppose counting in the tweaks I make when I run it) will never lose in a 1v1 situation to any class other than an ultra high dps phantasm mesmer. That is the single build that can beat it.

As an aside, you generally want to completely disregard anything menace says until it’s independently verified, just a good rule of thumb.

I beat blackwater builds constantly with my 10/30/30 hybrid build, I push out more dmg with everything I got, compared to their conditions. However, I don’t think they were of Natsu’s caliber, but I’ve met some quite good players that I didn’t have any problem beating.
I actually switched to a 10/30/30 hybrid after running the blackwater build, and getting completely smashed by aforementioned hybrid maybe it just suits my playstyle, or maybe it’s better, I can’t say, but it fits my playstyle perfectly.

I realize I came here for help, for answers, and I don’t mean this in a harsh way but…. what you said would matter to me ONLY IF every class in the game was another mesmer.

I think it’s great you beat other BW mesmers. I’m sure you are skilled and it probably does fit your playstyle, and I might even give it a try once I feel completely confident running BW build at its peak (which I am not)

How well you do against other BW mesmer builds is irrelevant…unless that’s just your thing and you enjoy hunting other mesmers lol

But I have to ask, how well do you do against every other class?

Do you think you do better because the build is better or because the build feels more natural to you?

ah yeah, sorry for drifting off hehe
Well to be honest with my current build I actually do extremely well against every class. The only classes I fear are necros and thieves, because necros can put out so many damaging conditions that it sometimes become too much for me to handle. And thieves, well because they are annoying as heck and can be difficult to lock down. For the most part I manage to keep them off, I don’t kill them and they don’t kill me. But the really good ones, who stealth/bs/stealth/bs can kill me eventually, if I mess up some of my escapes.

There are two builds I have used on mesmer where I don’t really fear going against anyone, this includes a necromancer.

Phantasm or PU(Blackwater 20/20/30).

IMO these are the only builds for hotjoin and yoloQ, a sh@tter is just too glassy nowadays unless using coordinated bursts/peels/cc which of course happens all the time in soloq LOL.