Guild Wars 2

JonPeters.5630:

Was hoping saying it once was enough but I’ll say it again. This is a work in progress. Try to give feedback based on the utility and synergy of the trait instead of the numbers. Slow every 3rd critical hit could also be every 10th critical hit. It could be 8s of slow instead of two. Obviously these numbers are an attempt to be accurate otherwise we wouldn’t even give them but a lot of this stuff will go up and/or down before HoT is released.

Jon

Hey Jon, with respect I think us giving feedback on the proposed numbers should also be valid. Most of us Mesmers are judging the value of the numbers (such as 1 boon removed per well) based on comparative traits/utilities such as Menders Purity or the reworked signet trait.

As far as the wells go, I think the trait should either reward being able to stay within the well (since combat is very active/mobile. And just about every class, including rival chrono can drop an AoE on it) or give a greater reward for the final pulse. Perhaps resistance.

I assume slow stacks duration so Lost Time should probably have a cooldown of 4 seconds. Please do not change the amount of crits needed just because of greatsword attack rate, or it will just make the trait suck for other weapons.

All’s Well that Ends Well, needs something that is always useful to your group everytime you drop a well, like Quickness or Alacrity. Or you could buff the trait a bit by converting a condition into a boon.

Chronophantasm, needs a bit more to be considered for a phantasm build, maybe phantasms have protection, or respawn on kill as well as on shatter? It feels like it is just another burst shatter skill rather than a skill for phantasm builds.

Flow of Time, should be minimum 1 sec per illusion shattered, ideally it would be nice as 4 seconds per shatter used. Then if your desperate for something to come off cooldown you can “waste” your shatters with IP. With a good MW rotation this would be around 25% uptime on Alacrity for average of 15% cooldown reduction? This also makes Improved Alacrity worth a look if your uptime is a consistent amount.

JonPeters.5630:

Was hoping saying it once was enough but I’ll say it again. This is a work in progress. Try to give feedback based on the utility and synergy of the trait instead of the numbers. Slow every 3rd critical hit could also be every 10th critical hit. It could be 8s of slow instead of two. Obviously these numbers are an attempt to be accurate otherwise we wouldn’t even give them but a lot of this stuff will go up and/or down before HoT is released.

Jon

This trait “Time Marches On” is Too OP.

Compared to Warrior he have to spec into 2 trait lines (Defense+Discipline) and pick 2 Major traits to get a similar effect, but Chronomancer spec in 1 line and get it as a Minor trait.

I like these overall, but here’s a suggestion for All’s Well that Ends Well: Remove/Convert all impeding conditions on end. Cripple, Slow, Chill, Immobilize, etc. Since wells already have long cooldowns, it’s rather poor to only remove one condition when you trait them.

Juba.8406:

JonPeters.5630:

Was hoping saying it once was enough but I’ll say it again. This is a work in progress. Try to give feedback based on the utility and synergy of the trait instead of the numbers. Slow every 3rd critical hit could also be every 10th critical hit. It could be 8s of slow instead of two. Obviously these numbers are an attempt to be accurate otherwise we wouldn’t even give them but a lot of this stuff will go up and/or down before HoT is released.

Jon

This trait “Time Marches On” is Too OP.

Compared to Warrior he have to spec into 2 trait lines (Defense+Discipline) and pick 2 Major traits to get a similar effect, but Chronomancer spec in 1 line and get it as a Minor trait.

Do you remember we got an offhand? My..the.. crying never stops….

Juba.8406:

JonPeters.5630:

Was hoping saying it once was enough but I’ll say it again. This is a work in progress. Try to give feedback based on the utility and synergy of the trait instead of the numbers. Slow every 3rd critical hit could also be every 10th critical hit. It could be 8s of slow instead of two. Obviously these numbers are an attempt to be accurate otherwise we wouldn’t even give them but a lot of this stuff will go up and/or down before HoT is released.

Jon

This trait “Time Marches On” is Too OP.

Compared to Warrior he have to spec into 2 trait lines (Defense+Discipline) and pick 2 Major traits to get a similar effect, but Chronomancer spec in 1 line and get it as a Minor trait.

Give us some of that great sword/sword mobility and then we’ll talk about fairness.

StickerHappy.8052:

Juba.8406:

JonPeters.5630:

Was hoping saying it once was enough but I’ll say it again. This is a work in progress. Try to give feedback based on the utility and synergy of the trait instead of the numbers. Slow every 3rd critical hit could also be every 10th critical hit. It could be 8s of slow instead of two. Obviously these numbers are an attempt to be accurate otherwise we wouldn’t even give them but a lot of this stuff will go up and/or down before HoT is released.

Jon

This trait “Time Marches On” is Too OP.

Compared to Warrior he have to spec into 2 trait lines (Defense+Discipline) and pick 2 Major traits to get a similar effect, but Chronomancer spec in 1 line and get it as a Minor trait.

Do you remember we got an offhand? My..the.. crying never stops….

Not to mention, the other ways Warriors can get full-on Swiftness. You’re seriously going to go jelly-mode? It took more than two freaking YEARS for Mesmers to get a
“Speed-boost” Trait, while being shafted with a non-stacking Focus Swiftness and an RNG-screwed Signet.

Also. We have zero idea what fun/powerful stuff Warrior Specialization will get, now do we?

Since feedback not about the numbers was asked for (which is dumb because how the numbers play out basically determine the quality of the trait line; the whole thing could be turned to garbage by mishandling the numbers):

I think all the traits, modulo the numbers, look great except the well one looks weak and Illusionary Reversion seems close to useless.

What is Illusionary Reversion supposed to do? What build(s) is it supposed to help? Everyone seems to think this is an alternative to DE, it is not, like at all, for a simple reason: Clone generation is only an issue for shatter builds (since clone death is gone) , and you need the clones before you shatter. The problem is that clones do not live long at all, and the primary issue mesmers feel without DE is that they can’t get enough clones out in enough time to get a meaningful multi-clone shatter before the clones start getting killed. IR does not alleviate this at all. Getting some small set up for the next shatter is not the issue, that doesn’t help really. It’s like IR is this trait that helps clone production for your second shatter. So what we need to blow F2 in order to get a good F1? That is kittened.

If someone wanted to give a meaningful alternative to DE, it has to increase on demand clone production, as in it has to give mesmers an ability to produce clones in quick succession before they shatter them. This is the core issue with power shatter, which is still going to be one of the if not the most played mesmer build.

The following would not be OP as an alternative to DE: weapon skills that produce a clone produce 2. There is only one of those on your bar, and each has a cd. You could put an icd on it if you wanted. This would actually be an alternative to DE, and would allow mesmers the on demand ability to get up front clone generation.

so TL;DR: Illusionary Reversion is not in any way an alternative to DE and does very little to help shatter builds.

Let the warriors ignore their regeneration from every time they use it …
… which stacks with healing signet
… and also stacks with adrenal health
… and works great with having higher base toughness

Obviously this one trait is going to allow there to be “Nike Mesmers” … just saying … my eyeroll muscles are getting tired.

Do you remember we got an offhand? My..the.. crying never stops….

?!
what does that have to do with the trait ?

Not to mention, the other ways Warriors can get full-on Swiftness. You’re seriously going to go jelly-mode? It took more than two freaking YEARS for Mesmers to get a
“Speed-boost” Trait, while being shafted with a non-stacking Focus Swiftness and an RNG-screwed Signet.
Also. We have zero idea what fun/powerful stuff Warrior Specialization will get, now do we?

Warrior took a long time to get the current Warrior’s Sprint + Dogged March.

Agreed on warrior spec, but still this trait is OP.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Give us some of that great sword/sword mobility and then we’ll talk about fairness.

Well that set is not popular among warriors, its an extreme set made to be able to keep up to kiting professions like Thief/Mesmer but it’s not a hard counter and beatable easily, still Mesmer in-combat mobility is second to thief.
based on that mentality you could give us some Teleports ?

I have nothing against ooc mobility, Sure mesmer needs it.

But you have to consider as i said before, Warrior needs to spec into 2 different trait lines and pick 2 different Major traits (conflicting with 4 other traits) to get a similar effect of “Time Marches On”.

MSFone.3026:

Since feedback not about the numbers was asked for (which is dumb because how the numbers play out basically determine the quality of the trait line; the whole thing could be turned to garbage by mishandling the numbers):

I think all the traits, modulo the numbers, look great except the well one looks weak and Illusionary Reversion seems close to useless.

What is Illusionary Reversion supposed to do? What build(s) is it supposed to help? Everyone seems to think this is an alternative to DE, it is not, like at all, for a simple reason: Clone generation is only an issue for shatter builds (since clone death is gone) , and you need the clones before you shatter. The problem is that clones do not live long at all, and the primary issue mesmers feel without DE is that they can’t get enough clones out in enough time to get a meaningful multi-clone shatter before the clones start getting killed. IR does not alleviate this at all. Getting some small set up for the next shatter is not the issue, that doesn’t help really. It’s like IR is this trait that helps clone production for your second shatter. So what we need to blow F2 in order to get a good F1? That is kittened.

If someone wanted to give a meaningful alternative to DE, it has to increase on demand clone production, as in it has to give mesmers an ability to produce clones in quick succession before they shatter them. This is the core issue with power shatter, which is still going to be one of the if not the most played mesmer build.

The following would not be OP as an alternative to DE: weapon skills that produce a clone produce 2. There is only one of those on your bar, and each has a cd. You could put an icd on it if you wanted. This would actually be an alternative to DE, and would allow mesmers the on demand ability to get up front clone generation.

so TL;DR: Illusionary Reversion is not in any way an alternative to DE and does very little to help shatter builds.

remember

Illusionary Reversion – Gain a clone after you activate a shatter skill.
Chronophantasma – Your phantasms respawn the first time they are shattered.

DE give you clone when you dodge every 10 sec or 5 sec if you got vigor
so lets assume perma vigor so every 5 sec 1 clone from DE

now the new trait gives you clone for each shatter skills which if you handle it right can produce up to 5 clones (with ip) and then F1 again and you not bound to endurance at all.
also your phantasm will appear again after you shatter so again free clones to shatter

so i think it can replace DE but will need fine adjustment to play style and timing of your shatter as it can bring huge fast burst with f1 with 2 clones + phantasms + ip, f2 with 1 clone and 1-2 new phantasm + ip, f3 with new clone + ip so your rotation can be faster and deadlier as of today power shatter.
again assuming atm.

@Juba:
Remember how your trait gives you regeneration any time someone applies one of those conditions to you?

Or how the current numbers have yours reducing the condition duration by 8% more.

Or how Mesmer and Warrior play so very different that this is rather ridiculous.

Hey – great line up! Here’s a bit of feedback. (Ps I love the puns).

Minors:
-Time Splitter: This trait probably needs notes added to it indicating it allows access to Well skills and the Shield weapon. This should probably be standard for all elite specs. It just helps clarify what all the elite spec does for non-forum roamers.

-Flow of Time: Clarify if it’s per illusion shattered or per shatter skill. The former is obviously preferred. Does this buff stack? I’m seeing some potentially interesting combos to shatter spam (with the illusion and phantasm return traits) to build up alacrity during a chronoshift so that when you exit the shift you have a nice stack of alacrity going – and all your shatters back to boot.

Adept
-All’s Well That Ends Well: Great pun. But consider changing this to granting the new resistance boon. Condition removal/conversion is very Mesmery – but we’re Chronomancers in this spec. Resistance is evocative of stepping outside of time to make conditions not affect your allies briefly.

Master
-Improved Alacrity: Consider changing this to “Alacrity you apply”, it makes the Mesmer himself more supportive to his allies.

Grandmaster
-Chronophantasma: I love this trait – but I worry it will end up being the go-to Shatter Mesmer trait rather than the Phantasm Mesmer trait as designed. I’d almost rather the trait said “Phantasms you shatter reduce the cool down of one of your Phantasm skills by 5s” (prioritizing the current highest or lowest CD) then perhaps give the trait an additional effect (ie Phantasms gain Quickness). As it’s written right now, a Shatter Mesmer would be hard pressed not to get it for the ability to, combined with the Master trait, rapid fire off multiple shatters.

Juba.8406:

Do you remember we got an offhand? My..the.. crying never stops….

?!
what does that have to do with the trait ?

Not to mention, the other ways Warriors can get full-on Swiftness. You’re seriously going to go jelly-mode? It took more than two freaking YEARS for Mesmers to get a
“Speed-boost” Trait, while being shafted with a non-stacking Focus Swiftness and an RNG-screwed Signet.
Also. We have zero idea what fun/powerful stuff Warrior Specialization will get, now do we?

Warrior took a long time to get the current Warrior’s Sprint + Dogged March.

Agreed on warrior spec, but still this trait is OP.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Give us some of that great sword/sword mobility and then we’ll talk about fairness.

Well that set is not popular among warriors, its an extreme set made to be able to keep up to kiting professions like Thief/Mesmer but it’s not a hard counter and beatable easily, still Mesmer in-combat mobility is second to thief.
based on that mentality you could give us some Teleports ?

I have nothing against ooc mobility, Sure mesmer needs it.

But you have to consider as i said before, Warrior needs to spec into 2 different trait lines and pick 2 different Major traits (conflicting with 4 other traits) to get a similar effect of “Time Marches On”.

It has to do with everything, since we only get 2 wep skills as opposed to other classes who get 5, we are being compensated somewhere else. Hence, the trait.

Wait till we see the warrior spec…

Don’t worry – I’m sure it will be the most powerful by far, followed by thief.

JonPeters.5630:

Was hoping saying it once was enough but I’ll say it again. This is a work in progress. Try to give feedback based on the utility and synergy of the trait instead of the numbers. Slow every 3rd critical hit could also be every 10th critical hit. It could be 8s of slow instead of two. Obviously these numbers are an attempt to be accurate otherwise we wouldn’t even give them but a lot of this stuff will go up and/or down before HoT is released.

Jon

I think there are many cases where the line between numbers and utility/ synergy is blurred. In those situations, it makes sense to discuss the numbers, as they might be tightly tied to functionality.

For example, the wells trait. What is the problem with the wells trait? Is it a problem with numbers? Sure, Anet can just up its cleansing from 1 to 2. Or is it a problem with functionality? Ultimately, people are not only discussing the numbers with this trait, but how worth the effect must be to justify waiting 2-3 seconds to get it. What if 1 cleanse is underpowered but two cleanses overpowered? How many wells can a mesmer stack at the cost (or not) of stun breakers and portal? Etc.

This is an example of ambiguity. At least, for me, it’s hard to discern if we’re talking merely about numbers, or if we’re talking about something else as well. Afterall, we are raising potential, problematic scenarios that go deeper than mere number crunching.

That being said, playing with numbers IS fun to some of us. :P

Outside of that, I already posted what I think might be my best contribution on the subject: some of those traits are really exciting, but they feel like they should belong to mesmer’s baseline trait lines/ specs, and not specifically to chronomancer. Chronophantasma and Illusionary Reversion are the two traits that fit that criteria. Chronophantasma, specifically, is like a better version of the new illusion’s trait Persistence of Memory.

I think that you should put at least one of those two traits in a baseline trait line instead (perhaps in illusions, but NOT in dueling, because that one already offers DE), and in its current place, add a shield trait to chonomancer. Illusionary Reversion would be my pick for such change, because it would offer a good alternative to DE for any shatter mesmer build (be it chronomancer or not), and because a chronomancer shield trait would make more sense in its place at master tier, than at grandmaster tier in chronophantasma’s place.

Sebrent.3625:

@Juba:
Remember how your trait gives you regeneration any time someone applies one of those conditions to you?

Or how the current numbers have yours reducing the condition duration by 8% more.

Or how Mesmer and Warrior play so very different that this is rather ridiculous.

Yes i do, Dogged March give 3s regeneration on 10s cd once hit by impeding conditions and get those on reduced duration by 33%.

Yeah on paper with that descriptions it sounds better

But Dogged March conflicts with 2 other traits, the same with Warrior’s Sprint and btw Warrior’s Sprint only works with melee weapons, chrono can have +25% speed on all of his weapons.

This still get overshadowed upon the fact that you can get all these effects with 1 minor trait

Yes Mesmer and Warrior play so different, so why give Mesmer a Warrior trait ??!

btw Arena Net when describing Warrior says “Warriors are masters of weaponry who rely on speed, strength, toughness, and heavy armor to survive in battle.”
^
Speed is the 1st thing Warrior get to rely on, i wonder if that description would hold on or might need a change ?

Don’t need condi removal on wells. That’s what null field or arcane thievery or illusionary disenchanter is for. Don’t overlap utilities, you’ll only make most of them obsolete as people pick the optimal condi removal one.

Do something else with it. And more PvE traits please, mesmer is not solely a PvP class what’s with the obsession on interrupts and shatter those don’t work in PvE.

Juba.8406:

Sebrent.3625:

@Juba:
Remember how your trait gives you regeneration any time someone applies one of those conditions to you?

Or how the current numbers have yours reducing the condition duration by 8% more.

Or how Mesmer and Warrior play so very different that this is rather ridiculous.

Yes i do, Dogged March give 3s regeneration on 10s cd once hit by impeding conditions and get those on reduced duration by 33%.

Yeah on paper with that descriptions it sounds better

But Dogged March conflicts with 2 other traits, the same with Warrior’s Sprint and btw Warrior’s Sprint only works with melee weapons, chrono can have +25% speed on all of his weapons.

This still get overshadowed upon the fact that you can get all these effects with 1 minor trait

Yes Mesmer and Warrior play so different, so why give Mesmer a Warrior trait ??!

btw Arena Net when describing Warrior says “Warriors are masters of weaponry who rely on speed, strength, toughness, and heavy armor to survive in battle.”
^
Speed is the 1st thing Warrior get to rely on, i wonder if that description would hold on or might need a change ?

This is adorable. What you failed to mention is that the warrior meta weapons have far better mobility built into them. I’ll trade you ileap for rush or whirlwind anyday.

Your warhorn is plain overpowered, a group cure for movement impairments+ vigor on a stupidly low cooldown.

The longbow is a far better ranged weapon than greatsword, it dwarfs its aoe potential and god knows what to make of pindown or combustive arrow.

Cry less about your warrior. You’re gonna be the class with phalanx strength who can singlehandedly slap 25 stacks of might at permanent uptime with a group, has the best group rez elite ever since they annihilated ranger spirits. Besides ele you are the class with the highest uptime of fury, the only class besides ele or engineer who can stack vulnerability reliably.

You are arguably in every single meta in the game in far larger numbers than mesmers can hope to be. Guardians and warriors have virtually dominated the landscape of this game while mesmers, necromancers, and rangers have been little more than gimmick classes people bring for a couple of skills on a longish cooldown, not because they buff their allies well or do great damage.

Juba.8406:

Warrior warrior warrior warrior

Warriors also get a minor trait that makes weapon swapping faster.
In HoT, warriors are getting Unsuspecting Foe as a minor.
Conclusion: Sometimes, minor traits are actually good.

This is one of those times. Move along.

StickerHappy.8052:

It has to do with everything, since we only get 2 wep skills as opposed to other classes who get 5, we are being compensated somewhere else. Hence, the trait.

Warrior will get an off-hand weapon too, i still don’t see how that fact could affects traits. assuming you can use these traits with all your weapons not just an off-hand.

Juba.8406:

StickerHappy.8052:

It has to do with everything, since we only get 2 wep skills as opposed to other classes who get 5, we are being compensated somewhere else. Hence, the trait.

Warrior will get an off-hand weapon too, i still don’t see how that fact could affects traits. assuming you can use these traits with all your weapons not just an off-hand.

Where is envy coming from? Warriors have been in the meta for too long, braindead for too long at the same time, i wish they nerf warriors so hard just to hear you qq more.

Why is that when mesmers get some help you guys rain on their parade? Looks at the power block trait…

ASP.8093:

Juba.8406:

Warrior warrior warrior warrior

Warriors also get a minor trait that makes weapon swapping faster.
In HoT, warriors are getting Unsuspecting Foe as a minor.
Conclusion: Sometimes, minor traits are actually good.

This is one of those times. Move along.

Unsuspecting Foe is trash in Arms trait line, i don’t think any warrior will pick it over Strength.

For Fast Hands it’s a minor since the beginning of the game, it should be a Baseline trait, btw did you see what traits Mesmer is getting as Baseline ?

Warrior got 0 Baseline traits.

Juba.8406:

ASP.8093:

Juba.8406:

Warrior warrior warrior warrior

Warriors also get a minor trait that makes weapon swapping faster.
In HoT, warriors are getting Unsuspecting Foe as a minor.
Conclusion: Sometimes, minor traits are actually good.

This is one of those times. Move along.

Unsuspecting Foe is trash in Arms trait line, i don’t think any warrior will pick it over Strength.

For Fast Hands it’s a minor since the beginning of the game, it should be a Baseline trait, btw did you see what traits Mesmer is getting as Baseline ?

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

Traits that are now baseline:

• Reduced glamour recharge rate
• Phantasmal damage boost
• Manipulation range.
• Illusionary Persona: Shattering illusions creates the shatter effect on you as well.
• Illusionary Elasticity: Bouncing attacks have one additional bounce.
• Protective Mantras: Gain extra armor when you cast a mantra.

Warrior got 0 Baseline traits.

kitten the sheer amount off qq is insane… Ill trade your healing signet for signet of the ether. Ill trade some of our finishers for your blasts and firefields.

StickerHappy.8052:

Juba.8406:

StickerHappy.8052:

It has to do with everything, since we only get 2 wep skills as opposed to other classes who get 5, we are being compensated somewhere else. Hence, the trait.

Warrior will get an off-hand weapon too, i still don’t see how that fact could affects traits. assuming you can use these traits with all your weapons not just an off-hand.

Where is envy coming from? Warriors have been in the meta for too long, braindead for too long at the same time, i wish they nerf warriors so hard just to hear you qq more.

Why is that when mesmers get some help you guys rain on their parade? Looks at the power block trait…

You are welcome to give feedback on Warrior spec, but please bring facts, just like what i’m doing now.

Juba.8406:

StickerHappy.8052:

Juba.8406:

StickerHappy.8052:

It has to do with everything, since we only get 2 wep skills as opposed to other classes who get 5, we are being compensated somewhere else. Hence, the trait.

Warrior will get an off-hand weapon too, i still don’t see how that fact could affects traits. assuming you can use these traits with all your weapons not just an off-hand.

Where is envy coming from? Warriors have been in the meta for too long, braindead for too long at the same time, i wish they nerf warriors so hard just to hear you qq more.

Why is that when mesmers get some help you guys rain on their parade? Looks at the power block trait…

You are welcome to give feedback on Warrior spec, but please bring facts, just like what i’m doing now.

Ok then, facts.

Fact: Warrior is meta in every single style of gameplay in GW2.

Fact: Mesmer is not meta in every single style of gameplay in GW2 with the exception of being able to leverage niche utility (usually portal and veil).

So, as a simple logical deduction, it stands to reason that mesmer should be getting buffs that eclipse that which the warrior has received, in order to attempt to put them on a similar level.

Hey Juba. You want to know why Mesmer got baseline traits and Warrior didn’t? Because Mesmer has been severely under-powered and Warrior hasn’t. Additionally, those traits were made baseline in order to give Mesmer increased build variety. Our trait system and choice of utilities made every selection an extremely painful trade off. Other classes might have similar issues but their trade offs aren’t as extreme.

Besides, I think this might be the wrong thread to discuss Warrior/Mesmer comparisons. How about we make a new thread similar to the new Dragon Hunter vs Chronomancer thread???

We finally get rid of the Guardian messing up the thread and bringing it off topic and a Warrior jumps in.

The two heavy classes coming to Mesmer forum to complain about something being too strong, whats next a theif popping in to say Mesmer’s have too much stealth?

This is why the balance is in the state its in.

Juba.8406:

btw did you see what traits Mesmer is getting as Baseline ?

“Baseline” just means “we realized certain abilities were pretty awful unless you took this trait, but we couldn’t buff them without making the trait effects themselves OP, so we removed the annoying trait requirement.”

Basically, here’s your problem:
Warriors are fine right now.
Warriors are good.
Warriors have definite strengths and weaknesses as a profession, but, in general, they’re powerful and valuable in every game mode. (Kinda like guardians.)
You’re looking at “Hmm, we fixed some busted broken stuff” and crying “Where’s my giant bag of candy, too!?” But you’re already holding the bag of candy right now.

Levetty.1279:

We finally get rid of the Guardian messing up the thread and bringing it off topic and a Warrior jumps in.

The two heavy classes coming to Mesmer forum to complain about something being too strong, whats next a theif popping in to say Mesmer’s have too much stealth?

This is why the balance is in the state its in.

Your use of Well of Precognition was super effective. I’m totally expecting a thief to come in here next.

I’m agreeing with Levetty. What is happening? Where am I? Is the Confusion rework already here?

;)

Someone rewound time to 2013!

JonPeters.5630:

*Try to give feedback based on the utility and synergy of the trait instead of the numbers. *
Jon

Yeah we tend to get bogged down in debates of numbers for content we haven’t even seen, but as someone said that’s part of the fun & anticipation of this amazing patch!

There were some refreshing replies that are starting to grasp all of the amazing synergies between lines that HoT brings. We have far less options than before, but far far more viable builds will come out of it. Excellent!

We only have to look at the DH whine thread to see the usual emotional tirades that people go through due to (IMO) pure anticipation. There were literally, rivers of tears cried about how Chronomancer couldn’t compete with DH, and today? lol! All has changed, now Chrono is clearly superior and OPd…blah…blah

Some of the more level-headed folks have started to see the synergies emerging for the Mesmer with the latest info on Chronomancer line. We saw a lot of this with Thief and Ranger trait overhauls to (IMO) a larger degree than Mesmer, and personally it had me worried and a little jealous just how much thought went into synergies between lines.

I now feel this is emerging quite nicely with Mesmers as well. The synergies between specializations for Interrupt & Shatter builds are pretty awesome, each with both Power & Condie variant. Furthermore much stronger Phantasms and support builds also seem plausible and probably viable, and even bunkerish style builds.

For all the theorycrafting going on, I think we will all be surprised by some of the builds and synergies we will encounter. Sure, there will be always be one or two, maybe three builds emerging as “meta” but I think this patch will go a long long way to making other builds viable enough that the “meta” won’t be quite as meta as it is now. Basically, I believe other builds will not lag nearly as far behind the meta as they do now, and thus we will more often run into interesting build combinations more often that force us to think outside of the meta.

Juba.8406:

ASP.8093:

Juba.8406:

Warrior warrior warrior warrior

Warriors also get a minor trait that makes weapon swapping faster.
In HoT, warriors are getting Unsuspecting Foe as a minor.
Conclusion: Sometimes, minor traits are actually good.

This is one of those times. Move along.

Unsuspecting Foe is trash in Arms trait line, i don’t think any warrior will pick it over Strength.

For Fast Hands it’s a minor since the beginning of the game, it should be a Baseline trait, btw did you see what traits Mesmer is getting as Baseline ?

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

Traits that are now baseline:

• Reduced glamour recharge rate
• Phantasmal damage boost
• Manipulation range.
• Illusionary Persona: Shattering illusions creates the shatter effect on you as well.
• Illusionary Elasticity: Bouncing attacks have one additional bounce.
• Protective Mantras: Gain extra armor when you cast a mantra.

Warrior got 0 Baseline traits.

Mesmers are getting things made baseline because we were severely lacking in build diversity due to the outright necessity of many of those traits (or lackluster state of mechanics/skills without those traits). You can’t compare one to the other directly like that and expect some sort of equality without having significant metrics regarding the overall state of the professions. Something I’d point out ANet has.

Either way – this kind of conjecture is pointless. It doesn’t prove anything.

As I said before … Warrior / Ele / Guard have dominated all 3 metas since release. Not just been barely there, but been solid parts of it … usually always 1 of the classes on a team if not doubled up on … and doubling up on a class in a 5-man content means that they are 40% of that party. When we see servers asking people to put away their Warriors/Guardians/Elementalists to play Mesmers … then we can talk … but that has never happened … but the inverse has … once the pocket Mesmers for a token Veil / Mass Invis / Portal are known, it is preferred for other Mesmers to get on Guard/Warrior/Ele … because you can never have enough of these.

Additionally, what the —-- lets you say that +% movement is a warrior trait. My back-side it is. You want that mobility? Look at your bloody weapon skills. There’s tons there in mobility. The only actual mobility a Mesmer has on their weapon skills is Illusionary Leap on Sword … which doesn’t work if the clone dies (which happens all the time to “ooops, cleaved it”) … and Phase Retreat … Warrior has 1 on Sword, 2 on Greatsword, perma swiftness from just speccing into Horn …

Mesmer has nowhere near the mobility a Thief does in combat … the fact that you think this just shows how absolutely braindead this discussion has become. I can’t spam closers on people like a D+P or Sword Thief can. I can’t teleport away constantly like a P+D or Sword thief can. I can’t spam teleports like a Thief Shortbow. Heck, who can other than a bloody Thief? No one. But you don’t see Mesmers going into the Thief forums saying “you took a Mesmer ability!” … because it’d be a braindead thing to do. There’s nothing saying “that’s a Mesmer ability” and even if there was there’s nothing saying “only Mesmers are allowed to do X”.

Heck, come back and cry when every meta-altering build you have is nerfed any time it has threatened Warrior/Ele/Guard dominance of the meta:

• Glamours / Confusion got nerfed hard for Mesmer … heavy forbid the kitten s in WvW stop spamming auto-attack or use a bloody condition cleanse … not like it’s hard to cleanse a condition and/or stop attacking … but apparently too many thought that wasn’t enough counterplay so it needed to be nerfed into the ground … yay for bad players who are overly vocal
• Arcane Thievery allowed Mesmers to steal all the boons from the B.S. boonstacking meta builds … so it got nerfed to only be able to steal a few … because heavy forbid we threaten the passive gameplay that is stacking ridiculous amounts of boons that switch the fight from being about skill to more being about stats due to the ridiculous levels of boonstacking … heck, it wasn’t as if Arcane Thievery could LOS’d, dodged, etc. … oh wait, it did have counterplay to it … hmmm.
• Traps got nerfed for Ranger … because heaven forbid we threaten tanky guard/warriors on a point … surely it didn’t get nerfed because dropping a giant damaging AOE on a point was OP … because Warriors are doing that all day with their longbow.

Personally I think it is sad that a few people not even maining a Mesmer are trying to sabotage a thread created to introduce us to our elite specialization traits.

Haha! This thread’s interesting!

I’ll put my two cents here:

I don’t give a kitten about what the other classes say about the Mesmer 2.0 or the Chronomancer! We NEED that buff because for two whole years, we have been the butt of every joke in every environment (PvP, WvW, PvE)! We needed the buffs and thank God for those. Now every mesmer can be releveant in every meta and we get more build choices and more build diversity that comes long with it. It’s beautiful!

Fay.2357:

Ok then, facts.

When Warrior spec get announced, you are welcome in Warrior forums to give feedback, i don’t want to derail this thread anymore into War vs Mes thing “not my fault”.

My feedback about “Time Marches On” i think is clear enough.

Juba.8406:

Fay.2357:

Ok then, facts.

When Warrior spec get announced, you are welcome in Warrior forums to give feedback, i don’t want to derail this thread anymore into War vs Mes thing.

My feedback about “Time Marches On” i think is clear enough.

It’s quite clear, it’s just clearly wrong.

Titus.2085:

Haha! This thread’s interesting!

I’ll put my two cents here:

I don’t give a kitten about what the other classes say about the Mesmer 2.0 or the Chronomancer! We NEED that buff because for two whole years, we have been the butt of every joke in every environment (PvP, WvW, PvE)! We needed the buffs and thank God for those. Now every mesmer can be releveant in every meta and we get more build choices and more build diversity that comes long with it. It’s beautiful!

Necromancers and rangers have been the butt of more jokes over the years, but mesmers weren’t very far behind I guess, and are more of a joke currently before these changes hit live (specially in WvW).

JonPeters.5630:

Was hoping saying it once was enough but I’ll say it again. This is a work in progress. Try to give feedback based on the utility and synergy of the trait instead of the numbers. Slow every 3rd critical hit could also be every 10th critical hit. It could be 8s of slow instead of two. Obviously these numbers are an attempt to be accurate otherwise we wouldn’t even give them but a lot of this stuff will go up and/or down before HoT is released.

Jon

Hey Jon,

as Chaos pointed out it’s quite hard to give feedback without taking the numbers into consideration. Most of the traits can be either very useful and have great synergies or totally useless. Lost Time is an easy example (Blinding Ashes and Blinding Befuddlement say ‘Heeeey’). An internal cooldown would kill the trait unless the proc was an area effect. Without an internal cooldown the trait would be insane when running GS (while being moderate on other weapons). Such things should be pointed out since the reception of the traits could go from ‘yey’ to ‘hell no!’. But let’s give it a try.

Overall the traitline looks very consistent. It offers interesting traits for different build types (shatter, interrupt, lockdown, phantasm). Since those build types are already established within other trait lines, we will see many options to combine various traitlines with Chronomancy. Within the traitline there are different attractive options to combine traits as well. Of course, the attractiveness of those traits comes down to numbers in the end since some combinations are only reasonable if the effects can be attained frequently and reliably.

There is one big fail among those traits, though. The Well trait. Neither does it follow the theme of the utility group – providing something to your group while also affecting your enemies – it also undermines Glamours which have been turned into exclusively supportive effects. Make it provide group utility without invading Glamour-space (is this a word?). For example: Immobilize enemies for 1s on casting a Well to keep the CC focus. The final hit reduces the recharge by x% per affected target (that is where ’All’s Well that Ends Well’ kicks in). If you feel Wells need some sort of condition removal, put 3s of Resistance on cast on the Well of Eternity (Mesmer only). This beautifully ties into the future-past theme by postponing condition effects.

By the way: Why not introduce a trait which affects the performance of etheral fields? Persisting Flames comes to mind. Of course, we would still need ways to distinguish the purpose of Wells and Glamours. But it might be an interesting way to salvage Temporal Enchanter which is at a point where numbers don’t really change anything (e.g.: Etheral fields grant allies Chaos Armor on cast. Etheral fields last longer. Glamours also periodically heal allies within them (or replenish endurance).).

On a different note: Maybe people could take their ‘Class X is neglected because we wanted Y first’ discussion somewhere else. So far it hasn’t provided any constructive information to this thread. Classes are different and so are traits across classes. People are aware that the trait is awesome. But this doesn’t justify derailing this tread. Especially not when it basically comes down to certain individuals seeing their personal agenda of introducing something to a different profession compromised. Warriors are the last to complain about mobility or return on investment, really.

Elorna.5329:

Titus.2085:

Haha! This thread’s interesting!

I’ll put my two cents here:

I don’t give a kitten about what the other classes say about the Mesmer 2.0 or the Chronomancer! We NEED that buff because for two whole years, we have been the butt of every joke in every environment (PvP, WvW, PvE)! We needed the buffs and thank God for those. Now every mesmer can be releveant in every meta and we get more build choices and more build diversity that comes long with it. It’s beautiful!

Necromancers and rangers have been the butt of more jokes over the years, but mesmers weren’t very far behind I guess, and are more of a joke currently before these changes hit live (specially in WvW).

Oh gosh. Now I pity them cause I remember what they say about them. xD

But PvP wise, I have to give them better respect than the mesmer itself because “unchecked”, they become dangerous foes. Much of the ‘butt of the jokes’ for me come from the fact that the current meta for mesmer is only Shatter and Interrupt and the rest aren’t even worth a mention. And they’re not strong compared to the dominating metas. I wanan see (and I’m afraid of) the Necromancer and Ranger specialziation builds they’ll make. All the more excitement!

Titus.2085:

Haha! This thread’s interesting!

I’ll put my two cents here:

I don’t give a kitten about what the other classes say about the Mesmer 2.0 or the Chronomancer! We NEED that buff because for two whole years, we have been the butt of every joke in every environment (PvP, WvW, PvE)! We needed the buffs and thank God for those. Now every mesmer can be releveant in every meta and we get more build choices and more build diversity that comes long with it. It’s beautiful!

woah, let’s not jump to conclusion, given how Anet has treated Mesmers for 2 years, what makes you think all of a sudden Mesmers are viable in all aspects of the game.

I will believe when it actually happens (and stays relevant with no nerf bats).

I like Time Catches up, the slow movement speed of clones running to shatter has always been a significant weakness and basically forces any mesmer that wants to shatter reliably to generate illusion in melee. I think something like this (though perhaps not super speed) should be baseline on mesmer.

for the balance:

i am thinking of what needs a bit a buff and why

• delayed reactions: 3s slow on interrupt. the problem is the actuall effect is 2 seconds or less because the dace or stund will cover this time anyway.
• All well that ends well: you have to increase the number of condins removed by this traid. you cant say if you want to have a condiremoval hmm in 3 seconds i will get it.

What meybe is to strong

• getting a clone when you shatter is extreamly powerful. Sword leap/ immobilise then a F3 F2 F1 you can stund on the first hit daze inflicts voulnarabilit so you get the 60% more dmg with 3 clones on F1 played with mirrow images. That hurts realy hard!!

• Improve alacrity: 33% longer doesnt sound much but we have to keep in mind that the buff itself is very very powerful useing your shatter and some trainds mean you have your swordsman back in 6 seconds ?

• slow on crit: is to strong when you use gs AA for the others you still need to relay on your crits and 3 hits

I’ll forever be annoyed that our Glamour build was nerfed into the ground (and I never ran it unless asked) … that would have helped combat the current mindless zerg meta in WvW :-/

Hopefully this new stuff gets us in a solid position on some, if not all, of the metas … as opposed to a niche we hold to for dear life with some utility.

JonPeters.5630:

Minor

• Time Marches On – You move 25% faster. The duration of incoming movement-impairing conditions is reduced by 25%. (Cripple. Chilled, Immobilize)

I have 2 opinions about this trait:

1) It is a trait that gives an immense mobility advantage, so I would put it on a major (selectable) trait, not in a minor one. It should be a choice.

2) It is a fix for one of the main disvantages of mesmer: lack of mobility (mesmers have 1 unreliable swiftness skill) so I would not put it on the elite specialization, it should be on the place of whatever is the weakest/lamest core trait currently (so it can be combined with any elite spec introduced in the future). Putting it on this elite spec will make it required for any activity where mobility is very important (WvW?), in detriment to any new elite specs introduced in the future.

There are several very interesting synergies between traits in Chronomancy line and other lines.
Talking from a roamer’s perspective (1-5 people in the party).

Everything below assumes “no ICD” which is pretty unlikely. It also assumes everything goes well (yeah, right).

Seize The Moment + Illusionary Reversion

- Get to the downed opponent, start stomping; use any shatter (quickness and +1 clone from IR) and immediately F4 shatter. Quickness and 2s of Distortion. Guaranteed stomp.
- (can also be used for power-ressing allies; bonus for Mercy runes)

Maim the Disillusioned + DE + Illusionary Reversion + Flow Of Time :

- Sc2 block, dodge: 2 clones + IP: 6 torments (and 5 from Scepter)
- dodge and IR: 2 clones + IP: + 6 torments.
- IR clone: 1 clone + IP: +4 torments (total: 21 torments with 16 PBAoE ones; bonus for Malicious Sorcery with +50% torment damage)
- (Flow of Time reduces our cooldowns in the meantime)

Protected Phantasms (Inspiration minor) + Chronophantasma + Warden’s Feedback

- cast iWarden, hide inside iWarden from a pesky ranger. Immobilize the ranger.
- when iWarden stops spinning or Immobilize starts to expire, sha’tter. iWarden will probably start whirling again ;-).
- I wonder if it will be ‘Protected’ again after coming back.

Delayed Reaction + Chaotic Interruption + Chronophantasma + Flow of Time + Chaotic Dampening + Protected Phantasms + Illusionary Inspiration

- this is Chaos/Insp/Chrono line
- pull enemies with a focus while casting iWarden. Go Sw3->Sw3. You have immobilized (C.I. Fc4 + Sw3) AND slowed (D.R. Fc4) some enemies. Put Chaos Storm on them and yourself. They are Slowed, more chances for Daze to proc CI. Cast iWarlock in Chaos Storm and after it shoots, sha’tter it immediately (it will return anyway and iWarlock should hit in melee). By casting iWarlock you shared to your partymates: staff clone boons, Chaos Storm boons, CI boons (old BI), boons given to you by partymates engaging foes, Protection from Chaos Armour from staff trait
- bonus points: Chaos Armour (St2 + St4) and as sha’tters -> Alacrity, Chaos Storm and iWarlock can be reloaded faster.
- Chaotic Persistence. The more boons you have, the longer the boon/condi duration. And mights from CI feed both Power and Condition damage… and the party.
- if Chronophantasma is a selected trait, probably iWarlock and iWarden live and will return.
- if Seize the Moment is a selected trait, you get quickness to share with partymates.

The most interesting Chronomancy traits to me are:

- Minors. They are great.
I do have my reservations about having both +movespeed and duration of incoming control conditions reduced (pretty strong with Melandru and Lemongrass; “lol immune to control conditions like warriors”?), but I don’t know in isolation; this is a new game for me (Dragonhunters, after all, have insane close range knockback and OMG CRIPPLE combined with OMG DAMAGE and innate guardian evilness). So… yeah, not taking a stance on this yet.

- Delayed Reactions (because it comboes with itself making following interrupts easier and gives us breathing room in combat. ICD will make or break this one (imo, no ICD), especially in group situation (there is a reason why Chaotic Interruption is a strong trait – with ICD it would be pretty useless with mesmer’s rare-ish interrupts being multi-target like Focus, Staff, GS, Pistol (stun+daze), offhand Sword (line daze) or now Shield))

- Illusionary Reversion (lets me not worry about DE in non-“shatter” builds or lets me gorge on clones in shatter builds with DE; this + IP baseline lets me experiment with avoiding Dueling line in Berserker builds)

- Chronophantasma (lots of potential synergies and mind games; I can shatter a phantasm solely to avoid losing it, for example; as a fan of Inspiration line I can combo it with Protected Phantasms; I mean, this + GS phantasm which I shatter anyway?)

- Seize the Moment (potentially very powerful with Mantras, stomping, ressing, boonsharing, phantasm casting… I mean, on-demand quickness? Enemies CANNOT prepare for that even if they know.)

The traits which may be great, but I am not fond of them:

- All’s Well that Ends Well (condition removal is simply not that interesting (I mean, we have Null Field, right?), even if Condi Removal is useful)

- Lost Time (potentially either too high ICD to be useful or will be so strong that all Slow-related chronomancer stuff may get nerfed (or it will be so strong that it will be mandatory even if it is the least interesting and engaging of Chronomancy GM traits we got.))

In short, Chronomancer seems to be a very interesting special ops class with fun and WELL-imagined traits which create interesting synergies with other lines.

DDCarvalho.2071:

JonPeters.5630:

Minor

• Time Marches On – You move 25% faster. The duration of incoming movement-impairing conditions is reduced by 25%. (Cripple. Chilled, Immobilize)

I have 2 opinions about this trait:

1) It is a trait that gives an immense mobility advantage, so I would put it on a major (selectable) trait, not in a minor one. It should be a choice.

2) It is a fix for one of the main disvantages of mesmer: lack of mobility (mesmers have 1 unreliable swiftness skill) so I would not put it on the elite specialization, it should be on the place of whatever is the weakest/lamest core trait currently (so it can be combined with any elite spec introduced in the future). Putting it on this elite spec will make it required for any activity where mobility is very important (WvW?), in detriment to any new elite specs introduced in the future.

If you were gonna put a +25% passive speed boost anywhere, I’d put it in Inspiration. Why Inspiration?

• Flavor. Inspiration quickens your steps just as much as time-mastery can.
• You’re rewarding builds that take the most supportive of all the trait lines with the potential to take a serious-business non-Trav rune to set up some kind of cool support synergy, or to compensate with some added offense or defense. (Without runes factored in, Chaos is the stronger personal defense line anyway.)

You could also put it in Dueling, where nearly every mesmer build could grab it easily, but Dueling is already a powerful and overloaded trait line.

That said, I don’t necessarily think it’s a terrible idea to put it in Chrono. Though I do find it annoying and redundant that Chrono gets both this trait and Shatter Superspeed. Also, despite the theme, it’s important not to stack all the “Be faster!” stuff in one trait line because being faster in this game is really, really good.

…

Actually! Wait! Hold up!

Actually a +25% constant speed boost would be so great for fixing Compounding Celerity!

EDIT: I made a thread about this because I think it’s worth pressing the issue a bit. Inspiration is a bit behind the other trait lines right now, even with the Mender’s Purity buff, and I think fixing its worse trait will do a lot of make it nicer without hurting build diversity.

I know this is a little late, but I checked the point of interest and the trait “Flow of time” (Alacrity on shatter) is 1 second from IP and then an additional 1 second from whenever a clone hits the target. This does stack in duration, so the trait can give up to 4 seconds, which makes the alacrity increase trait fairly strong.

Warlord of Chaos.7845:

I know this is a little late, but I checked the point of interest and the trait “Flow of time” (Alacrity on shatter) is 1 second from IP and then an additional 1 second from whenever a clone hits the target. This does stack in duration, so the trait can give up to 4 seconds, which makes the alacrity increase trait fairly strong.

The trait nets you 1.32 extra seconds of increased recharge time, it’s marginal. It only affects you as well, not your outgoing alacrity. The alternatives are superior.