Guild Wars 2

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Mesmer-Poll-Scepter-Auto-Attack-Torment/page/5#post4350768

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Mesmer-CHANGE-THE-CHANGES/page/4#post4354352

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/sPvP-Mesmer-Scepter-buff/first#post4337969

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Condi-Mesmer-Master-of-Torment

I haven’t checked the spvp forum..you can do that ( i believe in you)

blakdoxa.7520:

Solori.6025:

Oh…Well..maybe next time the mesmer community wont cry about a buff…

You asked for a nerf, you cried about a mesmer spec despite the devs throwing you a bone, this is the outcome. Maybe next time the devs decide to be nice to us. Instead of throwing a tantrum and following someones blind crusade against there own profession. You’ll sit back, and enjoy the buff.
You asked for this, deal with it

Where are these people that voted for a nerf? Was it the last CDI?

Also I’m seeing people only talk about PU… What about other mesmer builds affected by these changes or was this community more stagnant than I believed…

I think it’s because some people really want to see PU mesmers nerfed, some of the changes are ok like the bleed stack and adding swiftness and might, but the whole being able to block and evade conditions leaves me a bit concerned. That was how my condition mesmer handled certain bunkers and thieves rather well so im not sure how this is gonna play out. Maybe the torment will help with that but leaves me a bit concerned since I’m a condition build

blakdoxa.7520:

You have to understand that clone death traits punish enemies for killing our class mechanic. Either they kill the clones so we can easily be seen or actually take the extra bit of brain power to figure out which is the real mesmer.

Yes, in theory.
It only really happens at the very lowest levels of PvP-play however, where enemies still fall for clones every so often.

Once you get to medium-low or average levels of PvP ability, no one is fooled by clones. You take the death traits to either punish AE abilities, especially from melee chars, or to hope someone intentionally tries to kill them because the attacks annoy them.

Either way, they don’t help us use our class mechanic (which is shatter – which btw is rather silly). For that to work we’d need them replaced with traits such as:

• Clones now use more weapon skills than just AA (but cause no effect with them).
• Clones and Phantasms now taken 75% less damage while running in for a Shatter.
• Clones and Phantasms now take 35% less damage from area attacks and cleave attacks.

Such traits would help use our class mechanic. Yes. But on-death traits just add a third way of attacking on top of shatter and letting them stay out.

Carighan.6758:

blakdoxa.7520:

You have to understand that clone death traits punish enemies for killing our class mechanic. Either they kill the clones so we can easily be seen or actually take the extra bit of brain power to figure out which is the real mesmer.

Yes, in theory.
It only really happens at the very lowest levels of PvP-play however, where enemies still fall for clones every so often.

Once you get to medium-low or average levels of PvP ability, no one is fooled by clones. You take the death traits to either punish AE abilities, especially from melee chars, or to hope someone intentionally tries to kill them because the attacks annoy them.

Either way, they don’t help us use our class mechanic (which is shatter – which btw is rather silly). For that to work we’d need them replaced with traits such as:

• Clones how use more weapon skills than just AA (but cause no effect with them).
• Clones and Phantasms how taken 75% less damage while running in for a Shatter.
• Clones and Phantasms now take 35% less damage from area attacks and cleave attacks.

Such traits would help use our class mechanic. Yes. But on-death traits just add a third way of attacking on top of shatter and letting them stay out.

Yup and that’s why I don’t get the nerfing of PU when it’s pretty much a hot join level build. Our class mechanic (Illusions/Shatter) don’t really work if we don’t have illusions out, thus nearly every build relies on Deceptive Evasion/Vigor/Energy Sigils. DE is one of the most serious crutches mesmer has (looking beyond the bugs) due to poor illusion generation without it. Without DE, illusions just get cleaved and we are left with a cooldown.

I play variant of PU (zerk) and I could not survive direct damage without taking clone death traits (DD – weakness), DE, Illusionary defense, Signet of Illusions and PU.

As far kittenter goes… I’d be crazy enough to say when a mesmer shatters illusions should either be invulnerable en route the target or warp to the target and shatter. Just kittenter is now we wouldn’t be able to make it without DE.

Funny how it always comes back around to DE in the end. They really need to make it baseline. Sure there are a couple of “viable” builds that don’t use it, but I can’t think of another profession that is more pigeon holed into a trait than Mes with DE.

kodesh.2851:

Funny how it always comes back around to DE in the end. They really need to make it baseline. Sure there are a couple of “viable” builds that don’t use it, but I can’t think of another profession that is more pigeon holed into a trait than Mes with DE.

Except it makes it impossible to roll in a phantasm build/pve.

If they make it so that it doesn’t override, then they might as well remove clone death.

Also, I don’t want to spawn clones while avoiding things in PvE. I hate going in combat more than I need to while moving from point a to point b. If I’m in the mood to kill everything I see, fine, but I don’t always want to do that.

Saying it over and over again remove might from PU.

Esplen.3940:

Except it makes it impossible to roll in a phantasm build/pve.

If they make it so that it doesn’t override, then they might as well remove clone death.

Also, I don’t want to spawn clones while avoiding things in PvE. I hate going in combat more than I need to while moving from point a to point b. If I’m in the mood to kill everything I see, fine, but I don’t always want to do that.

I see…

Yes, clones aggroing random mobs is annoying and should really be fixed.

Still, you only override your oldest phantasm if you have 3 out and summon a clone. So yeah, I’d be totally fine with lazymode triple phantasm PVE builds being hurt so the rest of us can enjoy baseline DE and all the build variety that would allow.

kodesh.2851:

Esplen.3940:

Except it makes it impossible to roll in a phantasm build/pve.

If they make it so that it doesn’t override, then they might as well remove clone death.

Also, I don’t want to spawn clones while avoiding things in PvE. I hate going in combat more than I need to while moving from point a to point b. If I’m in the mood to kill everything I see, fine, but I don’t always want to do that.

I see…

Yes, clones aggroing random mobs is annoying and should really be fixed.

Still, you only override your oldest phantasm if you have 3 out and summon a clone. So yeah, I’d be totally fine with lazymode triple phantasm PVE builds being hurt so the rest of us can enjoy baseline DE and all the build variety that would allow.

Yes, lazymode PvE builds like dropping 3 Duelists on Abomination while you fight him melee away from your duelists so he doesn’t smack the ground and destroy them, relying only on dodges and evasion using Sword 2 to prevent yourself from overriding phantasms (thus negating 5 weapon skills 3,4,5/4,5)

Ever soloed that guy? Duelists make it a lot faster, and the cost of dropping 3 of them is 5 weapon skills.

Esplen.3940:

Yes, lazymode PvE builds like dropping 3 Duelists on Abomination while you fight him melee away from your duelists so he doesn’t smack the ground and destroy them, relying only on dodges and evasion using Sword 2 to prevent yourself from overriding phantasms (thus negating 5 weapon skills 3,4,5/4,5)

Ever soloed that guy? Duelists make it a lot faster, and the cost of dropping 3 of them is 5 weapon skills.

I get where you are coming from, PVE content is boring so clearing it as fast as possible is always preferable

Making it marginally harder for some PVE mesmers to solo bosses would be a small price to pay imho.

You enjoyed this disgrace for a build for too long already.

And I play mesmer as well, this change will benefit our class greatly.

hihey.1075:

You enjoyed this disgrace for a build for too long already.

And I play mesmer as well, this change will benefit our class greatly.

-Shadow Arts Thief

cyyrix.6105:

hihey.1075:

You enjoyed this disgrace for a build for too long already.

And I play mesmer as well, this change will benefit our class greatly.

-Shadow Arts Thief

I’m laughing in my chair too!!!!

I guess I need to look at the ready up to understand the nerf. I haven’t ran PU in months and months and months, so this simply means all of my condition builds was just nerfed. Oh yeah, idk if the devs knew this, but condition Mesmers aren’t all PU. This is short-sighted and doesn’t tackle the real issue here…

Esplen.3940:

Except it makes it impossible to roll in a phantasm build/pve.

Honestly, if Shatter stays the class mechanic (I’m in favour of switching clone/phantasm generation to F1-F4 and moving Shatter to per-weapon skills), then Phantasm builds are something which should not even exist.

As they directly shun the class mechanic. Would need to be rebalanced entirely, limit to 1-2 Phantasms but make them strong enough for the traits to matter, also boost F-skills when using Phantasms in them (make all +damage traits apply to the shatter for example) so it’s worth the trade-off yet.

But I’d prefer just swapping generation onto the class bar and make the skills currently generating a clone use one up (if available) instead, causing effect X, which is unique per weapon).

However you see it, if they implement torment AA and didn’t nerf clone death, it would of broken tpvp.

The 2 2 6 wasn’t the PU build ppl would run in tpvp aswell, so it would br misguided to use that as a point of referance….

Also clone death pressure combined with torment clones can be outplayed now

What scares me is how the tweaked clone-deaths will actually work.

Since they can be dodged/blinded/ect, does that mean they count as a hit?

Does that mean they’ll proc Retaliation on us? Or counter-attack effects?

…Will clone deaths break stealth!?

Chaos Archangel.5071:

What scares me is how the tweaked clone-deaths will actually work.

Since they can be dodged/blinded/ect, does that mean they count as a hit?

Does that mean they’ll proc Retaliation on us? Or counter-attack effects?

…Will clone deaths break stealth!?

Now this… I didn’t even consider this….

If that happens PU would have to skip out on clone death traits entirely…

Don’t scare me like that…

Most of the illusion mechanics are separate from the mesmer and thus I think the effects will remain that way.

Look at it this way. Phantasms hit. Phantasms can be dodged and blinded. They get killed and nothing happens to you. If you are in stealth and a phantasm hits your opponent, you aren’t revealed. I think the same will happen with illusions and the on death trait procs.

This is true, and definitely a possibility, but they could end up with the same properties as if you shattered them.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

What scares me is how the tweaked clone-deaths will actually work.

Since they can be dodged/blinded/ect, does that mean they count as a hit?

Does that mean they’ll proc Retaliation on us? Or counter-attack effects?

…Will clone deaths break stealth!?

They don’t do damage they just apply condis – you don’t break stealth if you daze the target from stealth (unless you also cause damage with the effect).

Chaos Archangel.5071:

What scares me is how the tweaked clone-deaths will actually work.

Since they can be dodged/blinded/ect, does that mean they count as a hit?

Does that mean they’ll proc Retaliation on us? Or counter-attack effects?

…Will clone deaths break stealth!?

you just named the first few guaranteed bugs that will come from Sept 9 patch.
the amount of “workling as intended…for 6 months” bugs in relation to these traits will be staggering.

…and that is why these changes are a bad idea……..it involves anet tweaking clone traits/performance…and that has never worked in the past

which is unfortunate, because its actually fair that clone death effects can be evaded/ blocked/ blinded

Coulter.2315:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

What scares me is how the tweaked clone-deaths will actually work.

Since they can be dodged/blinded/ect, does that mean they count as a hit?

Does that mean they’ll proc Retaliation on us? Or counter-attack effects?

…Will clone deaths break stealth!?

They don’t do damage they just apply condis – you don’t break stealth if you daze the target from stealth (unless you also cause damage with the effect).

True. That’s a very good point.

@Relshdan: Despite anets track record with Mesmer bugs, I don’t like to just assume that they’ll mess up. Its unproductive and further alienates the players from the devs