Guild Wars 2

I am glad they are ruining mesmer, I hope it stays dead for a long long time. Beyond the endless spirit rangers, minion masters, PVP super terri bads ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS roll a clone spam mesmer. This is exactly what the mesmer needed, i hope this isnt the start of the downfall either, I hope they continue to ruin every single class (other than warrior of course) because then I will be able to just give up on this fetid mess of a game. Maybe then a new and decent pvp experience can be made by some people who at least have a clue on how to balance a game.

LumAnth.5124:

They most likely refer to “cheesing” game play as using DE to kill clones, in turn, procing the on death traits.

But instead of toning down the death traits, they nerf DE.

That’s because in that specific example, the problem is DE.
To validate this, spec a spec without DE, use on-death traits, and utilize them, including overwriting at 3 clones to proc on-death traits. Then compare the same again without those traits.

I used to have that (no DE but on-death-traits), and really, if it’s anything it’s underpowered.

It only becomes an issue when you add DE to the mix. Even when it comes to full-clones-overwriting.

Carighan.6758:

LumAnth.5124:

They most likely refer to “cheesing” game play as using DE to kill clones, in turn, procing the on death traits.

But instead of toning down the death traits, they nerf DE.

That’s because in that specific example, the problem is DE.
To validate this, spec a spec without DE, use on-death traits, and utilize them, including overwriting at 3 clones to proc on-death traits. Then compare the same again without those traits.

I used to have that (no DE but on-death-traits), and really, if it’s anything it’s underpowered.

It only becomes an issue when you add DE to the mix. Even when it comes to full-clones-overwriting.

You seem to be making this odd assumption that the devs are making this change for some coherent balance reason. I’d argue that you’re entirely wrong in that.

From everything that we’ve seen, the dev team doesn’t have the first clue of how to balance. This is shown by their total lack of progress since the beginning of the game. The current meta can only be positively described as ‘better than the condition meta’, but it’s absolutely worse than what came before that. This means that the balance team has not learned anything from their mistakes, they haven’t improved.

Now, if you look at the living world releases, they have improved immensely. Each release comes with more interesting mechanics, a better storyline, and so you can generally see a very definite amount of progress with each new release. WvW also has been progressing, with incoming account bound ranks, new map structures, EoTM, and generally better matchmaking.

Now, not only have the devs shown themselves to be incompetent from a balance perspective, but they’ve also shown themselves to be incompetent from a coding and QA perspective. How many Mesmer skills have they broken? How many are still broken? How long did it take them to fix the skills? I’m sure you can answer those questions yourself.

Now, on top of all that, they repeatedly show a distinct lack of understanding about the classes in this game and how they function, particularly Mesmer, but definitely not limited to. This comes from both a factual basis (Jon Peters not knowing clones can overwrite phantasms) and a more conceptual basis where none of the devs were able to articulate in any way approaching clear or concise the background or reasons for the DE change. Their changes more often feel like changes for the sake of changing, disregarding the actual effects that those changes will have.

Overall
I can absolutely draw the conclusion that the balance dev team is completely incompetent and has no idea what they’re doing. They deserve no benefit of the doubt. They deserve to be questioned and pressured at every turn on every questionable change they make, because past events say that they are not acting in a way that best serves this game.

Carighan.6758:

LumAnth.5124:

They most likely refer to “cheesing” game play as using DE to kill clones, in turn, procing the on death traits.

But instead of toning down the death traits, they nerf DE.

That’s because in that specific example, the problem is DE.
To validate this, spec a spec without DE, use on-death traits, and utilize them, including overwriting at 3 clones to proc on-death traits. Then compare the same again without those traits.

I used to have that (no DE but on-death-traits), and really, if it’s anything it’s underpowered.

It only becomes an issue when you add DE to the mix. Even when it comes to full-clones-overwriting.

Yes I know, I used to play a non DE clone death trait. I still even have the armor set I used to use for that build.

I don’t think they know what effect this does to shatter mesmers. This spec is probably the one of the 3 (phantasm vs shatter vs condition) that needs the most help, yet this “fix” to the condition build had the side effect of nerfing shatter.

Shatter is my concern. They are already having a hard time with the current meta, this DE nerf will destroy some of the complex Shatter combos used.

In another thread someone did some math regarding in X minutes exactly how much the on death traits could put up (if you had all of them, even the one no one chooses that applies confusion) … and it was largely underwhelming.

I really did not notice amazing backlash at how “powerful” the on-death traits were prior to this change. Was anyone really complaining? I know people complain about PU because it is an invisibility trait, and invisibility in this game is very frustrating to an opponent. Obviously the on death traits still work, you just can’t use DE to pop them (almost) on demand. You have to use DE to get clones up rapidly and finish with a weapon skill if you want an immediate pop.

It seems like they made 1 too many changes at once. DE was paired with vigor on crit that had 100% uptime essentially in many builds. Why not just take away the vigor like they said (something that has already been done to other classes), and leave DE the same and see if that accomplishes the unknown goal of eliminating “cheese”.

It would be infinitely better to balance around that. Let’s assume that the bleeds are too much (though I can’t see how).

• Reduce effectiveness of Debilitating Dissipation by 33% (reduce stacks by 1)
• Reduce effectiveness of Crippling Dissipation by 50% (reduce time)
• Increase Confusing Combatants (minor Grandmaster) to 3 stacks of confusion from 1

• Make shatters go to your target, not the random thing they were fighting (don’t play shatter, don’t know if this is good or not).
• DE clones should prefer to attack your target, if no target, closest thing

• Keep vigor nerf as is.

Again, I still don’t understand how the dissipation traits are “OP”, if that is the “cheese” trying to be addressed .. but if they are, then why not address them directly and also make Confusing Combatants more attractive since it is a grand master.

When have I ever said on death traits are OP?

Don’t put words in my mouth.

In fact, I said that on death traits are horrible without other traits for synergy, but according to warrior biased devs, it’s too powerful.

DE nerf affects Condition with the “unintended” effect of nerfing shatter. Tell me, how many shatter mesmers do you see now?

LumAnth.5124:

When have I ever said on death traits are OP?

Don’t put words in my mouth.

In fact, I said that on death traits are horrible without other traits for synergy, but according to warrior biased devs, it’s too powerful.

DE nerf affects Condition with the “unintended” effect of nerfing shatter. Tell me, how many shatter mesmers do you see now?

I wasn’t quoting you. I was speaking generally because it has been something that has been assumed by many as the reason for the change since the devs giggled and laughed “no clones for you”.

I agree completely. I don’t see shatter mesmers at all .. which is a shame since it is the class mechanic.

LumAnth.5124:

You seem to not be understanding what I’m trying to say.

They most likely refer to “cheesing” game play as using DE to kill clones, in turn, procing the on death traits.

But instead of toning down the death traits, they nerf DE.

I do absolutely know what you are saying. And I do understand the “cheese”. You do not want DE to be nerfed because it affects your build and you apparently also feel that it affects shatter centered build more than others. You suggested changing the on death traits instead. I personally disagree. I question the view that shatter Mesmers are affected significantly more than other Mesmers. And I certainly disagree with the thought of nerfing the on death traits because they are in no way causing any balance issues.

Nerfing DE because of the on death traits is wrong. But nerfing the on death traits instead to keep the status quo of DE is even worse. If the devs feel that this way of using the on death traits is cheezy they should fix it properly. And this means that DE has to change.

DE comes with a very interesting mechanic and I wished there were more traits like this. I do not like that it impacts the whole balance of a class in such a massive way, though. DE will always cause problems because it is such a powerful trait. It basically is the active counterpart of IC.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Carighan.6758:

LumAnth.5124:

They most likely refer to “cheesing” game play as using DE to kill clones, in turn, procing the on death traits.

But instead of toning down the death traits, they nerf DE.

That’s because in that specific example, the problem is DE.
To validate this, spec a spec without DE, use on-death traits, and utilize them, including overwriting at 3 clones to proc on-death traits. Then compare the same again without those traits.

I used to have that (no DE but on-death-traits), and really, if it’s anything it’s underpowered.

It only becomes an issue when you add DE to the mix. Even when it comes to full-clones-overwriting.

You seem to be making this odd assumption that the devs are making this change for some coherent balance reason. I’d argue that you’re entirely wrong in that.

From everything that we’ve seen, the dev team doesn’t have the first clue of how to balance. This is shown by their total lack of progress since the beginning of the game. The current meta can only be positively described as ‘better than the condition meta’, but it’s absolutely worse than what came before that. This means that the balance team has not learned anything from their mistakes, they haven’t improved.

Now, if you look at the living world releases, they have improved immensely. Each release comes with more interesting mechanics, a better storyline, and so you can generally see a very definite amount of progress with each new release. WvW also has been progressing, with incoming account bound ranks, new map structures, EoTM, and generally better matchmaking.

Now, not only have the devs shown themselves to be incompetent from a balance perspective, but they’ve also shown themselves to be incompetent from a coding and QA perspective. How many Mesmer skills have they broken? How many are still broken? How long did it take them to fix the skills? I’m sure you can answer those questions yourself.

Now, on top of all that, they repeatedly show a distinct lack of understanding about the classes in this game and how they function, particularly Mesmer, but definitely not limited to. This comes from both a factual basis (Jon Peters not knowing clones can overwrite phantasms) and a more conceptual basis where none of the devs were able to articulate in any way approaching clear or concise the background or reasons for the DE change. Their changes more often feel like changes for the sake of changing, disregarding the actual effects that those changes will have.

Overall
I can absolutely draw the conclusion that the balance dev team is completely incompetent and has no idea what they’re doing. They deserve no benefit of the doubt. They deserve to be questioned and pressured at every turn on every questionable change they make, because past events say that they are not acting in a way that best serves this game.

This is what’s called being non-constructive and it’s why the devs will never post in these forums.

Wow, just wow. They decided to break on death (non-pu) builds again. So much for the iCelerity fix when they break the build again the following patch.

Whats the point anymore.

Redball.7236:

This is what’s called being non-constructive and it’s why the devs will never post in these forums.

Why, watch the video, think about the balancing for the last year and a bit. I understand that the Dev’s might be in denial of their skills.
But the playerbase has the duty to point out when people in a position where they are responsible of what’s happening fail. Even if I risk a ban, I will say, for the sake of GW2, those people are having no clue and the people in charge have to reiterate the value of them as an asset to the company.
That is how companies work. You do not keep underperformer, just because they are part of the company. Not in a business with such high success pressure.

It is hard to keep customers pleased. It is ten times harder to find new customers. But in the end, it is nearly impossible to convince a customer that left out of utter disappointment to come back.

Why would the Dev’s try so hard to get rid of their actual playerbase then?

“We don’t do whack-a-mole balance, we’re carefully shaving all classes for balancing”

Nerfing Critical Infusion AND Deceptive Evasion at the same time is not carefully shaving. Not at all. This is exactly the kind of balancing that killed the Elementalist.
Oh Anet… I really hope you’re taking all the feedback threads popping up seriously this time. Pretty much everyone in all aspects of the game telling you this is a horrible idea.
Nobody complained about this, and you’re still going to destroy yet another Mesmer playstyle.

Build diversity ahoy.

In the meantime, warriors get their “huge” nerf with 30 hp/s less on HS.
kitten logic.

Anet tries to fix the cheese by destroying our non-cheesy builds.

That’s a very strange strategy.

Good job I guess?

Just found this on a related thread in the Profession Balance forum.. FYI..

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Thanks for the feedback guys, there were some good points brought up here. This is why we wanted to discuss these future changes so that we had time to adjust to your feedback.

We’ll be discussing this change more internally. Most likely we will make some adjustments or look at other options such as replacing clones not triggering Debilitating Dissipation so it does not impact mesmer play as much which wasn’t our intent.

A minor victory, at least there will be some discussion. I would certainly like clarification on what exactly the thinking was as you answered in that thread. Do they really think Debilitating Dissipation is so overpowered? That is really a curiosity ..

They are actually listening, wow.

On the other hand, the new suggested “option” is even worse. Replacing clones not triggering DD? Why don’t they just delete this trait completeley? xD
We could only apply 3 stacks of bleeds/vuln/weakness IF the enemy decides to actually kill the illusion. How on earth is that a trait worth taking?

I really don’t get why they want those on-death traits nerfed so badly.

“replacing clones not triggering Debilitating Dissipation”

Still fail though.

Wasbunny.6531:

Could anyone having an opinion (one way or another) relating specifically to the perception that the ‘clone death’ builds & traits are too powerful please post your thoughts & findings here:

PvX MESMER Are clone death traits OP?

Since this was the reason given for the Deceptive Evasion nerf I think it’s important to really look into whether this is true or not, especially when proposing alternative solutions like nerfing those specific traits or builds.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Thanks for the feedback guys, there were some good points brought up here. This is why we wanted to discuss these future changes so that we had time to adjust to your feedback.

We’ll be discussing this change more internally. Most likely we will make some adjustments or look at other options such as replacing clones not triggering Debilitating Dissipation so it does not impact mesmer play as much which wasn’t our intent.

Saw this coming down the road.
We need to get ahead of this one or we risk just another pointless nerf to an already struggling trait, build and playstyle. Please, before making assumptions like ‘the clone death traits are OP, so just adjust them’ take a few minutes to do a simple test to isolate how much damage the Dissipation traits account for when coupled with DE.

I’m a little surprised I even need to bring this up but when considering any adjustment:

One needs to determine how much something is before stating it’s too much.

You’ll find I did one such test on the link above and the extremely meager results might surprise some that are thinking these traits when combined with DE are causing any balancing issues whatsoever.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

“replacing clones not triggering Debilitating Dissipation”

Still fail though.

I thought you quit? And you decided not to “wait and see”. Because you got an offer you couldn’t refuse.

Debilitating dissipation, and all clone death traits were always supposed to be, if an enemy killed your clones. It was never meant as an ability to grant conditions by dodging. It was a neat unintended trick, that was never supposed to be that way, and there fixing it.

I quit playing the game, that is true. I just felt like spending some time on the forums as it is fairly entertaining.

I just explained tetrodoxin what Roy meant with his sentence, too late he made a long post in the balance forums already… ^^

Jester.1236:

Debilitating dissipation, and all clone death traits were always supposed to be, if an enemy killed your clones. It was never meant as an ability to grant conditions by dodging. It was a neat unintended trick, that was never supposed to be that way, and there fixing it.

Ah, thanks for the clarification mr. Game developer.

Oh wait…

Kaiyanwan.8521:

I just explained tetrodoxin what Roy meant with his sentence, too late he made a long post in the balance forums already… ^^

I know what Roy meant. Those traits were designed that way back when the game was created, but that doesn’t change the fact that if they would only work that way, those traits would be complete garbage in the game we’re playing right now.
Noone with at least average knowledge about this game kills clones (melee) while fighting a condi Mesmer. Replacing (and therefore killing) clones is simply the best (maybe even the only) way to use those traits efficiently. Sure you can walk next to your clone and eat all the AoE/cleave spam to get your clone killed. Sounds like fun.

Qaelyn.7612:

Just found this on a related thread in the Profession Balance forum.. FYI..

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Thanks for the feedback guys, there were some good points brought up here. This is why we wanted to discuss these future changes so that we had time to adjust to your feedback.

We’ll be discussing this change more internally. Most likely we will make some adjustments or look at other options such as replacing clones not triggering Debilitating Dissipation so it does not impact mesmer play as much which wasn’t our intent.

This should fix the glaring concerns with their original proposal, as it will allow mesmers to still use DE defensively with 3 clones out and retain our ability to properly target shatters.

Unfortunately it still leaves me incredulous at the notion of nerfing the on-death traits. If they really think it’s cheesy to blow them up with a dodge via DE, I can live with it. In return it would make sense to compensate us with a buff to on death traits since it’s pretty clear they aren’t OP.

Jester.1236:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

“replacing clones not triggering Debilitating Dissipation”

Still fail though.

I thought you quit? And you decided not to “wait and see”. Because you got an offer you couldn’t refuse.

Debilitating dissipation, and all clone death traits were always supposed to be, if an enemy killed your clones. It was never meant as an ability to grant conditions by dodging. It was a neat unintended trick, that was never supposed to be that way, and there fixing it.

If this is the case then the number of useful traits keeps shrinking for mesmer. Why would anyone purposely kill a clone? Maybe a staff clone since it can actually apply conditions .. but other clones barely do anything at all.

If what you say is really what the “design” was, then they should just remove those traits altogether. They really aren’t worth it in the majority of the situations unless you can pop the clones faster than someone or something chooses to kill them (if they even choose to).

The layers of bandaids applied to mesmer appears to be growing. Speaking from a software development point of view .. we call massive amounts of bandaids in a software product “technical debt”.

Debts must always be paid eventually … and most of the time they charge interest.

tetrodoxin.2134:

Noone with at least average knowledge about this game kills clones (melee) while fighting a condi Mesmer.

That is why I said this approach of the Dev’s would be dumb.

I will say that I actually doubt they’d be able to make DE not trigger the dissipation traits. Maybe they could do it so that DE clones themselves won’t trigger the traits, but I honestly don’t think they’re good enough to code it properly such that a dodge roll causing an explosion won’t trigger the trait.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

tetrodoxin.2134:

Noone with at least average knowledge about this game kills clones (melee) while fighting a condi Mesmer.

That is why I said this approach of the Dev’s would be dumb.

Gotcha, I actually misread the first time. Thanks for the clarification! (Fixed my posts btw)

tetrodoxin.2134:

Noone with at least average knowledge about this game kills clones (melee) while fighting a condi Mesmer. Replacing (and therefore killing) clones is simply the best (maybe even the only) way to use those traits efficiently. Sure you can walk next to your clone and eat all the AoE/cleave spam to get your clone killed. Sounds like fun.

On the other hand, a good mesmer will position in such a way for cleave/AE attacks to hit their clones, or meat shield, what have you. It is fun when you can lure someone into killing them, and doesn’t necessarily mean you have to take a hit yourself. Sometimes these aren’t the easiest things to do, but is nevertheless skillful play.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

~snip~
We’ll be discussing this change more internally. Most likely we will make some adjustments or look at other options such as replacing clones not triggering Debilitating Dissipation so it does not impact mesmer play as much which wasn’t our intent.

This sentence should terrify any remaining Condition Mesmers.

Just to see how devastating this would be on only one of our few semi-direct Condition applying abilities (scepter auto-attack coupled with ‘on clone death’ traits) I did some tests in the Heart of the Mists. This is apparently what the developers are worried is unbalancing the game. I’ll let the numbers speak for themselves.

Stationary Target Test (PvE):
Single stationary target golem (to represent PvE stationary target) auto-attacking with scepter skill 1 and all three clone death traits (45 point investment) taken.

Results:

• Weakness 50% up-time
• 1 stack of confusion 100% up-time
• Cripple 100% up-time
• 3 stacks of Vulnerability 50% up-time
• 3-6 stacks of Bleed 100% up-time

Moving Target Test (PvP):
Single moving target golem (to represent slow moving PvP target) auto-attacking with scepter skill 1 and all three clone death traits (45 point investment) taken.

Results:

• 0-3 stacks of Bleed 100% up-time
• Occasional spikes similar to the stationary results when the target gets crippled, but the duration/stacks of the conditions were reduced. This spike would trigger roughly once every 20 seconds only when the target was snared by cripple and only if near the clone being destroyed.

Debilitating Dissipation Test:
Debilitating Dissipation trait removed, other two ‘clone death’ traits still active.

Stationary Results (PvE):

• 1 stack of confusion 100% up-time
• Cripple 100% up-time
• 0-4 stacks of Bleed 100% up-time

Moving Results (PvP):

• 0-3 stacks of Bleed
• Occasional spikes similar to the stationary results when the target gets crippled, but the duration/stacks of the conditions were reduced. This spike would trigger roughly once every 20 seconds only when the target was snared by cripple and only if near the clone being destroyed.

Wasbunny, those numbers are all good and interesting but for me the simple fact that I expect to leave a clone behind when I dodge is far more important. It’s one of the most basic mechanics of the mesmer game. That forces our opponents to think, and gives us a way out of a bad situation.

I often use scepter/focus. A decoy, dodge, heal, reveal and auto-attack beside my 2 clones confuses the kitten out of a lot of people, and that’s the just most basic move.

If there are concerns about conditions applied with “on death” then work on that end of the problem! Or, as has been suggested make those “on death” conditions blockable, or evadable. While they are at it, perhaps Anet could address the fact that clones don’t target what I’m targeting?

Anyway, they’ve backed down for now because they figured it out, we know more about the class then they do. For now… ><

Well, my ultimate conclusion from all this testing and debating hasn’t changed at all. I see no supportable or logical reason to change anything with either Deceptive Evasion or any of the Dissipation traits. In fact any such change will cripple all Mesmer builds, except possibly power based phantasm builds.

I should add too, the reason I put this to the test (something I like to think is routinely done by the balance team anyway) is so that if ArenaNet states that the Debilitating Dissipation trait was too strong in PvP and thus required a nerf, we will know they are talking about 0-3 stacks of bleed and a very rare 4 seconds of Vulnerability or Weakness.

Wasbunny.6531:

… if ArenaNet states that the Debilitating Dissipation trait was too strong in PvP and thus required a nerf, we will know they are talking about 0-3 stacks of bleed and a very rare 4 seconds of Vulnerability or Weakness.

And may I say, Excellent Work!!!

You may have found the definition of “cheese”.

Blackhat.4016:

To sum it up:

I don’t expect them to fix the game at all. The fact that they basically achieved nothing after more than a year shows that they don’t know to how to it. Casuals will always have their fun since it’s a decent game for them but all the other players either already left or still hang around frustrated.

i would not be so upset with the dev team,if they finally would admit that certain classes do need buffs for wvw at least. but last time they said they were happy with the mes and i was like well im not. being nerfed to the point where u have nothing to contribute to a largescale fight but a few non dmg utilities, is not balanced.
all i want atm is getting our bugs fixed after months and getting viable non ai based aoe again like we used to with glamours.
give us a little bone please. look at gw1 mes, look the hexes up. thats why mesmer there worked great. maybe replace mantras with something like that or let us spec into mantras to work differently. without recharge. like an aoe u can place. just something like that. after all we are a light armor class.
thats all i wish for. add some diversity in it and help groupplay. veilbot is sooooooooo frustrating and boring.

I’ve now got my engineer up to almost level 70. It is so much fun in WvW, even underleveled and wearing green gear, that I honestly will probably relegate my mesmer to secondary status.

And I don’t even run in a zerg.

This is not a profession that needs massive nerfing.

Qaelyn.7612:

I’ve now got my engineer up to almost level 70. It is so much fun in WvW, even underleveled and wearing green gear, that I honestly will probably relegate my mesmer to secondary status.

And I don’t even run in a zerg.

This is not a profession that needs massive nerfing.

yup made a necro and love that i can deal nice aoe dmg. so much more fun than veilbot…

Debilitating Dissipation needs nerf?

keenlam.4753:

Debilitating Dissipation needs nerf?

No, but DE makes those traits do things the devs might not have intended, mainly the ability to dodge2condition.

Since the traits are weak enough as is, they’re considering nerfing DE.

Carighan.6758:

keenlam.4753:

Debilitating Dissipation needs nerf?

No, but DE makes those traits do things the devs might not have intended, mainly the ability to dodge2condition.

Since the traits are weak enough as is, they’re considering nerfing DE.

Personally, I think if Anet is hellbent on “fixing” this dodge2condtion effect, the easiest way is to make overwritten clones through dodging not counted as dying clones and thus not trigger conditions. Its a big compromise but i think players using clone -death builds will adapt.

Josh Davis.6015:

Hey mesmers,

For clarification: if you have 0-2 clones out and you dodge, you will summon a clone.

If you have 3 clones out and you dodge, nothing will happen.

I’am sorry, but
1- there is certainly WAY more interesting thing to “update” than that ( useless confusion , many pointless uti, pointless interrupt, P thief are better to shutdown than mesmer.. lol ! crap condi mesmer .. etc )

2- even without thinking about the death clone build, it can be strategically more interesting to make a clone pop during a dodge than no clone at all because there is already 3 of them alive.

If you where saying that a clone will NOT replace a phantasm, but will only replace another clone.. yeah OK this “update” would be smart

but actualy.. its just… [cencored]

Instead of working on that “living world” that no one care about, Anet should really focus more on all class to avoid produce somes kind of unlogical change…

Anyway… more it go on, more Anet desperate me.

keenlam.4753:

Debilitating Dissipation needs nerf?

for me, they are using Debilitating Dissipation as some sort of a scapegoat.

its like saying, “ohh we are affecting all builds of mesmer with this DE nerf, totally unexpected, lets just nerf something related to it”

Before we all start asking for a nerf to any of the Mesmer ‘on-dodge’ traits (DE + clone death) by making them uniquely blockable or whatever we must find out if they are really overpowered in the first place.

You need to find out how much something is before stating it’s too much.
Sorry to sound like a broken record, I’m really more reminding the devs than anyone else.

So I did a simple side by side comparison between Mesmer & Thief using only ‘on-dodge’ traits (Deceptive Evasion & Caltrops) and only dodging to kill a moving target golem.

Mesmer: About 3-5 stacks of bleed 100% up-time (90% from auto-attacking clones). Very rarely a few seconds of Cripple,Vulnerability or Weakness.

Thief : 4 stacks of bleed 100% up-time. 45+ seconds of cripple.
also 2-4 stacks of might gained as well as swiftness and endurance regeneration

If anyone can seriously look at those two examples and arrive at the conclusion that the Mesmer is in need of having their ‘on-dodge’ traits nerfed in any way for the sake of balance…then I just don’t know what else to say.

I do find it amusing that it took around 6 months for these nerfs to happen (around 6 months since I remember PU-On Death builds to become “popular” I guess), if they were really overpowered and needed to be Properly balanced, why leave it for so long? it’s blatantly obvious that they are relatively fine, and these changes are just un-warranted.

Perhaps if other aspects of Mesmer gameplay and traits were buffed to compensate, and open up a wider range of build diversity, rather then just illogically nerfing things all over the place and giving less diversity, the game and class would be in a better spot.

Natsu, I think part of the problem is that balance changes like these are usually kept on a very long delay between when a dev gets told by a CM there might be a balance problem and when something hits the server.

Blizzard does their balance hotfixes, but you can see the difference in style. Those nearly always completely remove a skill from a situation or so.

But hrm… to me the problem is that we’re not getting enough nerfs where it would hurt (removal of DE, one Phantasm only, etc), and – together with that – not enough buffs to the plethora of unusable traits/skills.

Mind you, I think we need heavy nerfs. If they ever were to actually balance the undertuned stuff, we’d be overpowered in our versatility and adaptability. So fair enough. But I’d really like to see something done about it soon.

Yeah, I would very much like to see some buffs to make a number of currently “useless/never used” traits useful, I would be happy to see a new range of builds and play styles to come around, it would make it a lot more interesting in my opinion.

I would also prefer that all of our current bugs (not only for Mesmer, but for all classes and the game itself) to be fixed properly before continuing with any balancing, (Also, just stop with the living story, its pointless, send them back and re-make the dungeon team and fix our dungeons! Permanent content > Bi-weekly trash churnouts Another Also, redo the personal story and actually make it “Personal” and re-do Arah story mode, it was a large disappointment) (Sorry, I ended up going a bit off topic it seems, but my point remains valid)

Jackums.3496:

I know you like to make this seem like an issue with DE, but there are plenty of ways to rectify the condi spam problem without even touching DE, which benefits every other build we have more than not. Eg. Add an ICD to Debilitating Dissipation. Problem solved.

And all of those would nerf an already weak trait. The on-death traits are – if you don’t have DE – really weak. Try it for a laugh.

It’s only the combination with DE which is problematic. Since this isn’t the only problem DE causes as far as Mesmer-balance goes, shouldn’t DE get changed?
(Mind you, changed. I don’t agree with the nerf because I think DE needs a complete rethinking.)

Jackums.3496:

Carighan.6758:

keenlam.4753:

Debilitating Dissipation needs nerf?

No, but DE makes those traits do things the devs might not have intended, mainly the ability to dodge2condition.

Since the traits are weak enough as is, they’re considering nerfing DE.

I know you like to make this seem like an issue with DE, but there are plenty of ways to rectify the condi spam problem without even touching DE, which benefits every other build we have more than not. Eg. Add an ICD to Debilitating Dissipation. Problem solved.

If a CD is added to debilitating dissipation then to make up for it all 3 conditions should be applied at the same time. Otherwise a CD for debilitating dissipation is extremely bad idea. The amount of condi dmg and dmg mitigation from trait is really good for pve. But of course zerker players will have no idea because they will die anyway if they get hit.

The best solution that I’ve read so far is simply not have clones proc debilitating dissipation on a DE proc. A CD on Debilitating dissipation is an extremely bad idea if u want to encourage build diversity.

Having only DE clones not proc on-death traits seems weird to me. Unnecessarily complicated, you’d need a visual indicator to tell you which clone was DE, and which was “legitimately” created.

You don’t need a visual indicator at all. simply don’t proc DD on DE dodge. Which ever clone is due to disappear because of that dodge simply won’t proc the DD. Or you are suggesting we have a timer on top of each clone’s head to let the world know if DD will proc for the CD implementation? Don’t see why an indicator is necessary.

Oh, that. Hrm, yeah, that could work. I was thinking you meant that a clone created by DE would not proc on-death traits if later destroyed.

Wasbunny.6531:

Before we all start asking for a nerf to any of the Mesmer ‘on-dodge’ traits (DE + clone death) by making them uniquely blockable or whatever we must find out if they are really overpowered in the first place.

You need to find out how much something is before stating it’s too much.
Sorry to sound like a broken record, I’m really more reminding the devs than anyone else.

So I did a simple side by side comparison between Mesmer & Thief using only ‘on-dodge’ traits (Deceptive Evasion & Caltrops) and only dodging to kill a moving target golem.

Mesmer: About 3-5 stacks of bleed 100% up-time (90% from auto-attacking clones). Very rarely a few seconds of Cripple,Vulnerability or Weakness.

Thief : 4 stacks of bleed 100% up-time. 45+ seconds of cripple.
also 2-4 stacks of might gained as well as swiftness and endurance regeneration

If anyone can seriously look at those two examples and arrive at the conclusion that the Mesmer is in need of having their ‘on-dodge’ traits nerfed in any way for the sake of balance…then I just don’t know what else to say.

This is not a valid comparison, mesmer can dodge to shatter a clone that is far away from them to cause conditions to a target. A thief would need to be on top of the target in melee range.

Not to mention that the caltrops a thief drops pulse every second and are easily walked out of, compared to a mesmer clone death which applies all the conditions at once.