Guild Wars 2

Seeing as how this is the third thread on this topic, I went ahead and compiled the votes for users who posted in the other two but haven’t posted here.

Feel free to check my count:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Scepter-AA-buff-is-a-fantastic-idea/first#post4333819
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Scepter-AA-buff-is-a-terrible-idea/page/2#post4332101

Subtracting the people who already posted their replies here, the two threads listed above add:

10 to YES
16 to NO

My own answer is a resounding HELL NO.

Yes, because the problem is not Scepter AA but PU. (It’s like Blood Curse-Scepter AA of Necros or Stone Shards-Scepter AA of Eles)

I’d like to say Yes to change PU instead!

StickerHappy.8052:

Poplolita.2638:

I’m against anything which encourage brainless passive play. Also, I do not want Dhummfire 2.0, so no.

please read my post please.

No.

Seriously? What a stupid idea with this poll. We don’t have this changes yet, no point in crying. Let’s wait and see this changes in game. Scepter NEED love cuz is kinda weak, moreover this is condi weapon so it’s so obvious they will try to buff it this way. Torment isn’t bad idea but imho torment should be only for necros, confusion in the other hand only for mesmers. So YES for changes, at least they try. If u cry so much about PU bulids I vote for DELETE of PU trait. Will be much better… -_-

Yes!

As a pve player and mesmer I am very happy that we will get some nice changes.
I am not interested in any pvp or whatever and if they dare to listen to the pvp guys I really hope they will split the function of the scepter for pve and pvp.

Mesmer in pve needs improvement and changes: YES!!!!

I knew a thread like this would pop out. Long time lurker ..don’t really post but have played Mesmer since release!

Yes.

Do I think this is the best design decision that they could have done? No far from it but I also don’t think this is the end all most OP thing that people have been screaming about.

Please don’t start with the argument “Lord Helseth says so”. Helseth also said that Signet of the Ether would be OP and we all know how that turned out.

Starting with the first argument that PU will become overpowered…let’s start with the modes that PU influences.
PvE- Nonexistent, Spvp- Used in Hotjoins/Solo queue but not in Team queue because teams will usually just rotate around and stealth can’t cap/hold a point. WvW roaming – you can pretty much just walk away from PU.

What changes does adding torment do?

PvE- Nothing, WvW roaming – Nothing..if you didn’t run from a PU before what makes 1-2 stacks of torment as you run away any different?

Spvp- Makes PU slightly stronger in solo queue. Assuming you are running 4/4/6 PU with nightmare runes you get 35% condition duration increase. Making the 2.5 second base duration to 3.375. So you can assume 3 stacks per clone and 3-4 for the player (spamming only auto attacks). That is 12-18 stacks assuming you hit with your counter with a start-up time from 1 second (illusionary counter, mirror images) to 9 seconds (slow rolling them out with auto attacks). This is also of course assuming they are running 0 condition removal.

Sorry about the strike through but I forgot that clones don’t get condition duration..which means their stacking potential is MUCH less than I even hypothesize with the best condition. The non PU condition times should be closer to what you can actually get.

So what happens when anyone aoes your clones in any shape or form? Well then you need to start stacking up your clones again. Which means your clones aren’t auto attacking..which means you aren’t getting the torment stacks.

But what about the argument you can get them up again really quickly?

Really? Is this also the same reason why signet of the ether is so OP? Because we can in theory get to almost heal signet levels of regen in spvp by keeping up clones constantly. It is unrealistic to assume we will always have scepter clones out auto attacking and keeping up their stacks of torment. Are you going to stay in scepter the whole time? Of course not, which means you will never have max possible torment stacks up unless you are facing someone in hotjoin or they are afk.

What about non PU condi mesmers?

The most optimal build that has been suggested so far is some variant of Chaotic Interruption. 0/4/6/0/0 with 4 points floating. If you don’t take 4 in domination you lose 20% condition duration. Suddenly your scepter auto attack clones will go from 2.5 seconds of torment to 2.875. At most they will be able to keep up 2 stacks per clone assuming they are all up. With a player aa torment of 2-3, you can have 8-14 torment stacks up. Once again assuming that you and all your clones are autoattacking and your opponent is just standing there with his finger up his nose and has no condition removal.

Non-PU mesmers are not the tankiest in the world, which means that they will be killable (of course we do have some amazing interrupt mesmers…). If anything this increases the diversity of builds that people will be playing in spvp. Does this mean that condi mesmers will be played in tpvp? Maybe? Is that a bad thing that mesmers will not be gs/staff shatter portal? If anything it sounds more interesting in the possibilities of interrupt condi mesmers. The predominant fear of torment stacking OPness seems to come from this underlying belief that we will be able to keep up 3 scepter CLONES constantly throughout a fight without switching to an alternative weapon. If that is the case then why is everyone not just running signet of ether as well?

Sorry for the long post as well as typos…it is late here…(I’m ready for you Pyro!)

TL;dr: Torment stacking adds little to PU spvp, PU already gets ignored in wvw roaming, opens up possible non shatter/portal play in spvp.

Reesha.7901:

No.
Like blackhat said: Promoting passive play is a terrible idea.

People, seriously…. READ THIS ^

Everyone is stating that Scepter needs a buff. Everyone can see that, but do you really want this spec to become more brainless?

Do you really want a spec that is already bad, and cheesy in conjunction with cheesy mechanics to become more cheese? Why can’t you see that this weapon needs a real buff, not just a condition on its autoattack!

Short: I understand Scepter needs a buff, but this is promoting passive play (which is a bad mindset).

Aluren.1896:

I knew a thread like this would pop out. Long time lurker ..don’t really post but have played Mesmer since release!

Yes.

Do I think this is the best design decision that they could have done? No far from it but I also don’t think this is the end all most OP thing that people have been screaming about.

Please don’t start with the argument “Lord Helseth says so”. Helseth also said that Signet of the Ether would be OP and we all know how that turned out.

Starting with the first argument that PU will become overpowered…let’s start with the modes that PU influences.
PvE- Nonexistent, Spvp- Used in Hotjoins/Solo queue but not in Team queue because teams will usually just rotate around and stealth can’t cap/hold a point. WvW roaming – you can pretty much just walk away from PU.

What changes does adding torment do?

PvE- Nothing, WvW roaming – Nothing..if you didn’t run from a PU before what makes 1-2 stacks of torment as you run away any different?

Spvp- Makes PU slightly stronger in solo queue. Assuming you are running 4/4/6 PU with nightmare runes you get 35% condition duration increase. Making the 2.5 second base duration to 3.375. So you can assume 3 stacks per clone and 3-4 for the player (spamming only auto attacks). That is 12-18 stacks assuming you hit with your counter with a start-up time from 1 second (illusionary counter, mirror images) to 9 seconds (slow rolling them out with auto attacks). This is also of course assuming they are running 0 condition removal.

So what happens when anyone aoes your clones in any shape or form? Well then you need to start stacking up your clones again. Which means your clones aren’t auto attacking..which means you aren’t getting the torment stacks.

But what about the argument you can get them up again really quickly?

Really? Is this also the same reason why signet of the ether is so OP? Because we can in theory get to almost heal signet levels of regen in spvp by keeping up clones constantly. It is unrealistic to assume we will always have scepter clones out auto attacking and keeping up their stacks of torment. Are you going to stay in scepter the whole time? Of course not, which means you will never have max possible torment stacks up unless you are facing someone in hotjoin or they are afk.

What about non PU condi mesmers?

The most optimal build that has been suggested so far is some variant of Chaotic Interruption. 0/4/6/0/0 with 4 points floating. If you don’t take 4 in domination you lose 20% condition duration. Suddenly your scepter auto attack clones will go from 2.5 seconds of torment to 2.875. At most they will be able to keep up 2 stacks per clone assuming they are all up. With a player aa torment of 2-3, you can have 8-14 torment stacks up. Once again assuming that you and all your clones are autoattacking and your opponent is just standing there with his finger up his nose and has no condition removal.

Non-PU mesmers are not the tankiest in the world, which means that they will be killable (of course we do have some amazing interrupt mesmers…). If anything this increases the diversity of builds that people will be playing in spvp. Does this mean that condi mesmers will be played in tpvp? Maybe? Is that a bad thing that mesmers will not be gs/staff shatter portal? If anything it sounds more interesting in the possibilities of interrupt condi mesmers. The predominant fear of torment stacking OPness seems to come from this underlying belief that we will be able to keep up 3 scepter CLONES constantly throughout a fight without switching to an alternative weapon. If that is the case then why is everyone not just running signet of ether as well?

Sorry for the long post as well as typos…it is late here…(I’m ready for you Pyro!)

TL;dr: Torment stacking adds little to PU spvp, PU already gets ignored in wvw roaming, opens up possible non shatter/portal play in spvp.

You do not need to apologize for writing this, seriously.

Slightly increases the micro niche for scepters/condi in PvE. Good, but a drop in the ocean that is “we need the stacking cap to go away”.

Or were you talking about WvW?

It is hard,cause the main issue is PU,not the scepter changes.But since Anet does nothing to PU,I would choose NO.

yes
because mesmer’s scepter AA need buff badly. warrior’s imaple is way more op than this

This feels like the dhumfire patch. And what I’m afraid will happen is that there will be qq, anet will start to nerf mesmers in other ways to try and compensate for the change, but then eventually nerf the scepter and mesmers will be left weaker then they were before the buff (like what happened to necromancers). The community reaction now reminds me of when dhumfire was first announced – some excitement, but a lot of top tier players condemning the change.

rfdarko.4639:

This feels like the dhumfire patch. And what I’m afraid will happen is that there will be qq, anet will start to nerf mesmers in other ways to try and compensate for the change, but then eventually nerf the scepter and mesmers will be left weaker then they were before the buff (like what happened to necromancers). The community reaction now reminds me of when dhumfire was first announced – some excitement, but a lot of top tier players condemning the change.

Dhumfire is a trait that was in effect across any/all weapons at any/all given times. Scepter is a weapon choice, and that only available while swapped to it. I’ve been wondering what weapons people are going to give up to have their mesmer take scepter. Precious Greatsword, or Staff (which so many need to survive)? Sword with the new leap/imob, which goes so well with so many offhands? Unless you’re already running scepter you’ve got to give something up to take it, unlike Dhumfire. For a lot, albiet most Mesmers they’re not going to drop their primary weapons for scepter just because of some torment application (see shatter and phant mesmers).

For me I don’t see the point.

Given the mechanics of the auto attack, it doesn’t matter whether Torment, Confusion, ICBMs or Orcs wielding Laser Rifles are added to the AA. It’ll still be a terrible auto-attack to fire.

Yes, it works against a world boss when not moving. Only conditions are mighty useless there. It also works ok against gates (Torment won’t exactly help :P ) and AFK players (yeah, well…).

In all situations:

• The issue isn’t the damage of the AA, it’s the mechanics.
• Staff AA is still stronger, even more so with the buff to elasticity.

It really doesn’t matter. It makes a situationally not-terrible weapon situationally even-less-terrible. But it doesn’t fix the actual issue.

In short: WHATEVER
Really doesn’t matter either way.

All people are crying about Pu … , nobody is seeing the " Return of the Condition Shatter Mesmer " .

Shhh … we don’t want non-Mesmers to know ’bout Condishatter. Or MoD-using Lockdown builds. >.>

No

As Helseth rightly explained on his stream about mesmer changes, there are better ways to improve this weapon’s AA. Giving it a kittenload of torment is not one of them.

Yes, why not? PU is brain dead and it won’t change with this fix. MM is brain dead, the whole class of warrior is brain dead, p/d theif, etc, etc. You always have an option to play cheesy builds and you won’t make people who do love another style play it. In all other aspects it is a big buff to mesmer which is my main, so why should I be against it? Have you ever seen a warrior saying: holy kitten, they are buffing my hammer to make it stun for 4s on AA, no, please, don’t do this, it will encourage bad players to play hambow?

Yes. I dont think PU mesmer are a cancer. If you dont like it, dont play it. I think Scepter needs better auto atack and it is here now. Welcome AA!! I can say the same with other builds that I dont like it. Please, respect players and its style of game.

One thing to note about PU after the patch, there will be better counters to stealth in general. I know I saw Rangers got a big boost to a ‘revealed’ duration that they can put on you, and I think there was something like it for another profession too???

I think both Thief and Mesmer stealth builds will be getting a bit harder in GvG.

I vote for yes. Definitely a good improvement for the scepter.

I don’t understand why forum people are already complaining about an update not implemented yet. We haven’t seen how the changes will affect the actual gameplay. We may all do theory crafting but everyone knows that not all computed in paper are the same in the actual game.

No all the way. Not torment on a spam skill copied by your clones.

PU mesmers already mindlessly troll almost everything in 1vs1, this change would be insanity.

No, torment on each auto attack is too strong. Have the last attack in the chain apply two stacks of torment and create a clone, remove the torment from the first two auto attacks

Flinxe.1623:

I don’t understand why forum people are already complaining about an update not implemented yet. We haven’t seen how the changes will affect the actual gameplay

We saw the horrific meta that was generated in mid-2013 when condis could be indiscriminately dumped everywhere by auto attacks and low-cooldown AoEs. We know what effects easily spammable condis have on the game. We know how strong condi mesmers are. It’s not hard to extrapolate from that experience to see that buffing an already strong condi spec with more brainless condi spam will have a poor impact on the game.

Aluren.1896:

-snippity snip-

Here’s the main issues with this change.

I don’t think anyone has ever said ‘gosh, I think spammable conditions on autoattacks is creative and solid game design’. The problem is that there’s very little middle ground with this type of mechanic. It’ll either be mostly inconsequential (this change), or massively overpowered (underwater trident pre-nerf). This comes from the basic mechanics. If the conditions are strong enough to be impactful, then the only counter is non-stop condition removal spam. If they aren’t strong enough to be impactful, then it’s completely useless.

Basically, this change falls squarely into the ‘completely useless’ category. Will it make some builds stronger? Yeah, it will. PU condition builds will gain a modest amount of pressure, but staff clones already hit harder with long duration bleeds + burning, so it’s not like conditions on clone attacks is a new principle. Will this change make condition shatter (torment shatter) builds viable? Nope, not even close. So there’s basically no positive impact for this change, the only thing it does is slightly buff some already strong builds.

Additionally, it absolutely reeks of lazy design. What this change says to me is this:

“We realize that there is a problem with the scepter autoattack, because people keep telling us so. We have no idea how to make it interesting, unique, and useful, so instead we’ll just slap on some torment and call it a day.”

There are so many changes that could have been implemented here to make the scepter a useful and/or unique and interesting condition weapon for mesmer. Simply adding a taste of torment to the autoattack is neither useful, nor unique, nor interesting. Even worse, it means that Anet has now washed their hands of this attack.

“We’ve addressed your concerns with the scepter autoattack, so now we’ll move on to other things.”

The fact that this change was rolled out means it went through all the lengthy steps that any change goes through. It means that in order to have an actually positive change made to the scepter autoattack, we’re starting back at square 1, with 0 progress.

Summary

This change does not make any previously un-viable builds viable. This change slightly buffs already strong builds. This change does not make the scepter autoattack any less brutally slow and clunky. The changed scepter autoattack is still woefully deficient in many ways, but has been bumped off of the development queue due to this change. For all of these reasons, this change is unequivocally horrid.

I want to test it out first prior calling it OP, but I’m afraid, that if it really is OP, that it will not get fixed anytime soon :/

Definitely yes.

The vast majority of my game time is spent in pve. Where I use scepter
a lot. Not because it’s any “good”. Primarily because the movement activity
required to stay near melee with a scepter is fun, and very “active” game play.
The damage is pretty terrible right now. Still, there are people that enjoy using
the scepter for it’s rhythm, sound, and visceral ‘active’ feel.

1 scepter clone that is the target of any dodge/auto shatter does not seem
overpowered with the proposed changes. This change may make it more
acceptable to use a scepter for informal small group pve. That would be
good.

For pvp, I expect the scepter clones will be just as fragile as ever, rendering
them much weaker than theorycrafting would project.

Yes, but it’s too much torment right now. I propose this:

Ether Bolt: does damage, combo finisher: physical projectile (20%).
Ether Blast: applies torment in an area around the target, combo finisher: blast.
Ether Clone: does damage and creates a clone that casts Ether Bolt.

TLDR: Yes, but needs nerfing.

I’m for more options. So obviously I’m pro-torment.

PRO TORMENT lets find out if its horrible or not, would at least like to play with it a bit.

Do people realize how strong a couple of stacks of torment is? Mesmer condition pressure is good but thats not all you need to take into account. You also need to look at the survivability and effort required to play said spec . If memsers run pu condition build its has good condition pressure with insane survivability and its very very easy to play.

Even without pu trait memser condition build is still very strong if not one of the strongest specs around. You can be tanky and with stealth and ports(staff/blink) you still very survivable. Scepter does need a buff but torment on AA is not the answer. We should be advocating more ways for active play not dumbing down this class.

Also I like to add this is the mesmer forums so ofc its likely to get more people that are bias towards buffing mesmer as opposed to if it was on the profession balance forum.
Its a No from me.

non pu condition build
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PLs0cReY9A

Yes.

I’m all for more ways to kill thieves and hopefully stop a fleeing warrior. Awesome.

Fay.2357:

Aluren.1896:

-snippity snip-

Here’s the main issues with this change.

I don’t think anyone has ever said ‘gosh, I think spammable conditions on autoattacks is creative and solid game design’. The problem is that there’s very little middle ground with this type of mechanic. It’ll either be mostly inconsequential (this change), or massively overpowered (underwater trident pre-nerf). This comes from the basic mechanics. If the conditions are strong enough to be impactful, then the only counter is non-stop condition removal spam. If they aren’t strong enough to be impactful, then it’s completely useless.

Basically, this change falls squarely into the ‘completely useless’ category. Will it make some builds stronger? Yeah, it will. PU condition builds will gain a modest amount of pressure, but staff clones already hit harder with long duration bleeds + burning, so it’s not like conditions on clone attacks is a new principle. Will this change make condition shatter (torment shatter) builds viable? Nope, not even close. So there’s basically no positive impact for this change, the only thing it does is slightly buff some already strong builds.

Additionally, it absolutely reeks of lazy design. What this change says to me is this:

.snip.

This change does not make any previously un-viable builds viable. This change slightly buffs already strong builds. This change does not make the scepter autoattack any less brutally slow and clunky. The changed scepter autoattack is still woefully deficient in many ways, but has been bumped off of the development queue due to this change. For all of these reasons, this change is unequivocally horrid.

This^

The same goes with the new Mimic.. Gee, how original.. Don’t we already have a skill like that. Oh yeah, Arcane Thievery.. why not just tweek this underused skill and give us something more original in Mimic?

Basically, after seeing these changes. Just forget about new weapons or new professions anytime soon. Because its obvious that ANet is out of ideas.

Yes. Totally for this change. Makes scepter so much more viable in all kinds of aspects of the game related to PvE.

This change isn’t just about PvP you know.

“PU might become OP” imo is a stupid reason not to do it. Why should worrying about 1 build becoming OP stop a change that could create 4-6 other types of builds/combos much more viable?

Add this change. I’m not so sure PU will become insta OP. BUT If PU become OP then nerf/change it (then honestly it would probably be a change that has been coming for a long time anyway.

tl;dr: Adding this change is worth it in terms of all the other build types it helps even if it means sacrificing some PU gameplay on the chance it becomes OP.

Yes
I haven’t seen his blog but I’ve heard all over about Helseth saying that with this change a PU Condi can now take and hold a point in spvp. And maybe he was speaking about this in negative terms but to me it makes a once unviable spec in spvp viable. Makes for more diversity. Not to mention the fact that Condi mesmers may now NOT HAVE to have that PU crutch but can thrive without it opening up even more builds.

“PU is already op 1v1 and solo roaming” yadda yadda yadda blah blah. No respectable dueling server allows PU anyway. And this game needs to be balanced around spvp and team play not 1v1 and solo roaming.

If its so terrible they can nix it fast enough like they did the awesomeness of the original power block. My prediction is that it will end up being Bleed Torment Clone with clones doing bleed on auto as the finished product sometime in the near future.

NO.

It’ll be brokenly overpowered.

overall, it’s a yes….although not sure if torment is the correct condition…i don’t feel its crazy OP or unfair having a reliable offensive condition on scepter autos (even with this change, other classes have more dangerous condi-auto attacks). i would have preferred something defensive like a short weakness or chill…or keep in class theme and add confusion….but i’ll wait and see how the torment works for non-PU mesmer builds before i condemn the proposed change. adding to the clone attack is what seems OP to me, but that is not the question being asked.

…and as others have pointed out, PU condi mesmer is already OP. adding torment to their kitten nal isn’t going to change how people react to them (run away as the torment tickles them) when roaming.

No.

I am a mesmer besides maining warrior. The last thing I want is my secondairy class being called ‘lame’ and ‘easy to play’ and ‘all noobs run it’, I could even get more examples on while running on warrior.

Nope. Nein. Neen. Non.

Nevah.

No

Giving mesmer this makes the class boring because everyone and there granny will play the same class.
Where is the challenge thats why I play Mesmer because it takes practice to be good and am still learning.

Yes, cause it will kitten ppl off to no end.

-Sizzap

Yes. Any change to the scepter is better than none. This weapon was been terrible for a long time.

TooBz.3065:

Yes. Any change to the scepter is better than none. This weapon was been terrible for a long time.

Unfortunately, this is false. Take a look at the last couple paragraphs of my previous response. When you get a change that’s simply insufficient, it doesn’t mean they’re partway to a good change, it means they’ve simply reset the clock entirely on any more changes.

UPDATED 8/26/14

.. Is my math correct? o_O

So I ended up doing the calculations and the Scepter AA is out classed most of the time by the Staff’s auto.

Assuming that you have 3 of either clone using the scepter or staff, the staff’s damage output, although less consistent then the scepter does more damage on average. Scepter being 996 while the foe is moving with the trait Malicious sorcery. The Staff averaged 1381. Now this is taking into consideration only the duration of the conditions applied for 1 single attack from each of the clones. The staff does have a 26%(rounded up) chance to be lower then the scepter AA.

My calculations do not account for all factors but I would hope it at least gives you an idea.

Lily.1935:

So I ended up doing the calculations and the Scepter AA is out classed most of the time by the Staff’s auto.

Assuming that you have 3 of either clone using the scepter or staff, the staff’s damage output, although less consistent then the scepter does more damage on average. Scepter being 996 while the foe is moving with the trait Malicious sorcery. The Staff averaged 1381. Now this is taking into consideration only the duration of the conditions applied for 1 single attack from each of the clones. The staff does have a 26%(rounded up) chance to be lower then the scepter AA.

My calculations do not account for all factors but I would hope it at least gives you an idea.

We can throw a couple more factors in too. Hard to slap numbers to them, but it can show which way the results skew.

Scepter clones use a slow-moving, non-homing bolt. This means that they’re very prone to missing if used on a moving target. Winds of Chaos from staff clones home, giving them a very high success rate for actually landing the attacks.

Torment only ticks at maximum strength on a moving target. Targets won’t be moving continually, and so that will lower the total damage by some amount.

Lastly, malicious sorcery will be taken incredibly rarely, simply due to trait constraints, so that lowers the numbers even more.

But really, are the conditions applied by CI more at benefit by condition damage or condition duration? And if this is the case, are you really running CI without an invaluable trait like Shattered Concentration?

Then ask yourself, are you really able to lock down effectively and often enough without the massive boon removal supplied by said trait?

Because honestly I don’t think the small amount of toughness converted to condition damage by Chaotic Transference is worth gimping yourself and running a condition based CI build with incredibly limited ways to handle stability (hybrid rather, and I used to run one myself for a while, albeit it was celestial).

Regardless this isn’t even on topic. It’s still a solid no from myself.

Everytime i read posts like this, i wonder how people conclude about stuff without testing it.

Fay.2357:

Lily.1935:

So I ended up doing the calculations and the Scepter AA is out classed most of the time by the Staff’s auto.

Assuming that you have 3 of either clone using the scepter or staff, the staff’s damage output, although less consistent then the scepter does more damage on average. Scepter being 996 while the foe is moving with the trait Malicious sorcery. The Staff averaged 1381. Now this is taking into consideration only the duration of the conditions applied for 1 single attack from each of the clones. The staff does have a 26%(rounded up) chance to be lower then the scepter AA.

My calculations do not account for all factors but I would hope it at least gives you an idea.

We can throw a couple more factors in too. Hard to slap numbers to them, but it can show which way the results skew.

Scepter clones use a slow-moving, non-homing bolt. This means that they’re very prone to missing if used on a moving target. Winds of Chaos from staff clones home, giving them a very high success rate for actually landing the attacks.

Torment only ticks at maximum strength on a moving target. Targets won’t be moving continually, and so that will lower the total damage by some amount.

Lastly, malicious sorcery will be taken incredibly rarely, simply due to trait constraints, so that lowers the numbers even more.

I know its a no from you pyro, but any suggestion to make it a better condition weapon? I hate # 3 honestly and the AA so any change would be a yes for me. Heck even vuln or weakness is good too.

Even just increasing the Speed is good too. For#3, i dont like the fact that its channeled, maybe change it to be something like the wrench to give instant stacks og confusion.

PS: I said condition weapon just for the sake of the patch, because Anet wants it to be one.

YES!

Do I think it might be a slight overpowered/boring in certain builds? Sure. But until I see it in practice, any buff to scepter is a good buff. I totally agree with what many people, Fay included, are posting: in practice and in theory are very different.

Clones attack slow, they miss a lot, they die, they run around. I think at the end of the day, I don’t think we’ll see an overwhelming number of Torment stacks from the auto.

I say we try it out and ask for minor tuning if it’s too strong rather than reject the adjustment altogether.

Fay.2357:

Lily.1935:

So I ended up doing the calculations and the Scepter AA is out classed most of the time by the Staff’s auto.

Assuming that you have 3 of either clone using the scepter or staff, the staff’s damage output, although less consistent then the scepter does more damage on average. Scepter being 996 while the foe is moving with the trait Malicious sorcery. The Staff averaged 1381. Now this is taking into consideration only the duration of the conditions applied for 1 single attack from each of the clones. The staff does have a 26%(rounded up) chance to be lower then the scepter AA.

My calculations do not account for all factors but I would hope it at least gives you an idea.

We can throw a couple more factors in too. Hard to slap numbers to them, but it can show which way the results skew.

Scepter clones use a slow-moving, non-homing bolt. This means that they’re very prone to missing if used on a moving target. Winds of Chaos from staff clones home, giving them a very high success rate for actually landing the attacks.

Torment only ticks at maximum strength on a moving target. Targets won’t be moving continually, and so that will lower the total damage by some amount.

Lastly, malicious sorcery will be taken incredibly rarely, simply due to trait constraints, so that lowers the numbers even more.

More factors are the buffs from Staff & Clones that will also increase damage and crit chance.

I agree with you in principle Pyro, but I’m not of the opinion that ANet is going to immediately make time to change the Scepter based on our feedback. Most likely they would put it on the back burner for another 1-2 years, and that’s far worse then what this patch will give us. Obviously this will not be OPd, the numbers prove it, it will slightly help out a highly situational non-group friendly build that people love to hate on, but at the same time I do believe it will make other builds more viable and popular.

Straight Condie builds, non-PU, are not commonly seen right now. No wonder, you’ve so far been pigeonholed into either using a terrible MH as your secondary weapons set, or a clearly Power oriented 1h or 2h weapon. Furthermore, spawning Clones by dodging, AA, or #2 while holding a Scepter literally meant screwing yourself over.

Along with the IE fix, making Scepter slightly less broken by providing a unique Condition you can’t get off Staff is while not genius design, sufficient to make the Scepter worth using in condition oriented builds.

I do think we will see some more Mesmer build diversity after this patch.

It’s fine, people are over reacting over a change they haven’t seen in game yet. As long as they don’t go after my Illusionary Elasticity…been waiting for that fix for a while now.

I’ll be very simple. Yes place it. if you want to run condi PU afterwards then go right ahead. Runing without PU will actually make you stronger in roamings unless solo.

condi dmg memser?
Buffed by 10% of toughness (chaotic transference), or 17% when runes of the undead are used (oh: tuning crystals?, wvw buff?) signet of domination? sigils of bursting? sigil of corruption? 1700 condi dmg ? LOL make it 2600 or 3500 with might in wvw. using a condi mesmer with a modded pug carrier will be the death of all roaming groups

I expect a lot of builds to be more powerfull then basic condi PU. You will want a lot of condition dmg?

go 0/0/5/5/4 and enjoy a nice build with the staff and the scepter with reduced casting and 250 condi dmg as well no bleeds on crit , phantasms from bother torch and staff could be more usefull and have a distinct use in self buff..

go 0/5/5/0/4 and enjoy a nice build witrh confusion on clone death and have a freedom for either staff or scepter clones on dodge bleeds on crit

OR go 0/4/6/0/4 and have a freedom for either staff or scepter clones on dodge with pu. but you’ll miss out on some confusion

interestingly: if the scepter would be buffed the deceptive evasion wouldn’t be obligatory anymore for some condi builds…

In the end when I was thinking back to mesmer, well, before the condi nerfs… then they had a niche function, denying 1 player all skill use. This is no longer so. AT ALL..

And why would a torment on 2 of the auto’s be that bad if the staff already does the same with bounces form next patch onwards? And why would it be else then sword warrior for example, doing bleeds on auto ?