Mesmer in PvE: Your Hopes/Concerns?

Mesmer in PvE: Your Hopes/Concerns?

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Posted by: Chaos Archangel.5071

Chaos Archangel.5071

While news has been great for Mesmer on the pvp side of things, there hasn’t been as much clear discussion on Mesmer in PvE. Sure there’s been some tears, plenty of salt, but I haven’t seen much legitimate discussion on the subject of Mesmer going forward in PvE and dungeons/fractals.

What do you guys think about the changes? What would you have preferred and how do you wanna see Mesmer improved in PvE?

Hell.. Are we even in a bad place in PvE? (I mean like Necro bad)

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Posted by: Levetty.1279

Levetty.1279

Hell.. Are we even in a bad place in PvE? (I mean like Necro bad)

Yes. Pretty much every attack from a boss is an aoe so are damage is destroyed making it pretty hard to keep consistand damage in dungeons and meaning we are just auto attacking with GS agaisnt world bosses. When we actually have 3 phantasms up our DPS doesn’t match the other classes DPS who don’t have to set up to reach their max petential (that includes Necros, who can make high dungeon dps builds but are let down by their lack of group support). Reflects are reason we are taken in dungeons even though our dps is sub par but the changes have taken away our damage buff from mantras which greatly increased our feedback damage without really giving anything in return amd I doubt the inbuilt phantasmal Strength will increase the reflect damage from iWarden like it currently does as a trait.

Open world PvE the problem is just how our mechanic is focused on 1v1 fights and mobs die so fast our illusions can barely do anything. Some buffs to GS they have already done and IP help with this but what we really need are some aoe outside of illusions, which maybe Chrono will give but I still think it will be more of a control spec. That and movement speed but they seem to finally be fixing that.

The problem with the changes is how they all focus on shatter and interupt. Illusions, Duelling and Dom will probably be the lines you want to go down for PvE as they have minors, adepts and Masters that will increase your damage but provide no GMs to support the kind of play style needed in PvE. Greatsword training is the closest buts its a ranged weapon.

An idea I have been toying with is take Mistrust and combine it with blinding befudlement. Then in the empty slot put in a trait that makes it so when you shatter you don’t shatter your phantasms or maybe any illusions at all so basically you just get the shatter effect on you. The purpose of that would be so Pve mesmers can get access to a bunch of the on shatter traits to provide interesting options with their builds but without having to give up their dps to use their mechanic.

Now I know this trait is weird and it would be the only trait in the game whose purpose is to actually make one of your skills worse but i think it could be interesting.

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Posted by: Me Games Ma.8426

Me Games Ma.8426

Hopes…
all my hopes so far have been to reduce the passive play. Which phantasms really support. The problem is that we do not have any way to protect our phantasms from damage that 1shots them. (already mentioned above)
The best way to deal with that problem is either to make illusions immune to cleave/aoe in PvE which is totally not going to happen. OR to give us playstyles that do NOT rely on illusions… which is as likely to happen as the first suggestion >.<

I do not know what they are doing with the chronomancer but I know that the time will come when mesmers are meta for dungeons and group content in PvE.

Mindblossom – Sylvari – Mesmer – Jumpingpuzzler
Equinox [EqnX]
Riverside[DE]

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Posted by: ODB.6891

ODB.6891

I had decently high hopes for my PvE direct damage phantasm mesmer…but this preview has shot those hopes down quickly. Zero GM traits for phantasm direct damage. Phantasm traits scattered to the four winds to make sure you can’t make a cohesive PvE phantasm build. Warden’s feedback put in a very inaccessible place to eliminate our primary contribution to PvE instanced content. The primary focus of the entire mesmer trait redesign being PvP related content (interrupts, conditions, and shatters). I’m seriously doubting that the one elite specialization can compensate for this horrible redesign (from a PvE perspective).

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Posted by: Ouroboros.5076

Ouroboros.5076

I have hope that we will get PvE content more in line of what a Mesmer is made to be : a pressure class. GW2 current PvE is all about trashing ret0rd3d creatures as fast as possible by maxing direct DPS, which simply does not fit with the design of the class.

If the extension brings some sort of PvE content where confusion (take this as a general term, including effects, hexes and all) and interrupts are good to have, then Mesmer will be fun to play. As long as it’s a BORING DPS race, other classes will, be design, be better.

(edited by Ouroboros.5076)

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Posted by: Miku Lawrence.6329

Miku Lawrence.6329

Almost nothing changes for mesmer in Dungeons. We are getting some nice addition (Fragility, MW, Phantasm damage boost, IP, Glamour cd, all QOL changes needed) but some PvP-centric decisions are making it worse to compete with a flashy DPS guardian or an even better DPS thief that got even better with their changes.

  • Dueling minor locks us from either Fury or Duelist’s DIscipline
  • Phantasm traits are scattered in 4 lines and we can only choose 3.
  • No worthy GM whatsoever, in any line (bare Signet from Inspiration, unless its a worthless 45 sec ICD proc).
  • Add to this more AoE centric content and we’re pretty doomed. HoT content is locked for mesmers.

Our place will not shift in next meta. Nothing game changing (PvE) came out of this update. We’re forever the glamour bot when a guardian is not needed for aegis or stability. Too bad guard’s DPS goes so kitten high now.

Snow Crows [SC]

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Posted by: Windwalker.7421

Windwalker.7421

I’m definitely among the least qualified to speak on PvE, but just by reading the complaints regarding PvE, it seems to me that people are simply resistant to the fact that Anet is deliberately moving away from passive play for the Mesmer and that this naturally affects Phantasm builds. (PvE and PvP!)

It seems that Anet feels that Phantasms should be only supplementary in nature rather then a fundamental play-style.

That aside, it may not be much for PvE, but the 1s invuln at least should do something and is almost free as long as you’re going for Wardens Feedback anyway. Yes, Temporal Enchanter will hopefully see some further improvements, but all of this would seem to jive well with PvE builds.

I also think other alternatives will emerge for PvE as well. Perhaps Anet felt it would require a focus away from Phantasms, to make people even want to try more active builds in PvE. They are improving Conditions in PvE, Confusion will get boosted as well, and you will be able to do some serious boon sharing in a Boon/Support Shatter build for example. I can’t judge if that’s useful in PvE, but it would seem so? (Mucho AoE Stab, Vigor, Fury and Might…or even Quickness!)

We will also have a ton more reflect options. Just on dodge roll alone or using BF, and/or using a Manipulation which will apparently include Mirror.

Much tankier builds will also be possible thanks to baseline IP making IR a viable choice for self-healing on shatter, and traited staff now providing on-demand Protection and more Chaos Armor in general.

As for Sword being the only melee option for PvE, isn’t Staff with IE and the Dueling line going to do pretty well too? Lots of bouncing Burn, bleed, and Confusion & Bleed on crits? (Not to mention Fury & Might) Trait that sucker and this could make a seriously tanky melee-range build with BD and RI for boons/heals on shatter.

I’m simply trying to point out possible new options that all favor much more active play then focusing a build entirely around summoning Phantasms.

Just my 2 cents for what it’s worth…which admittedly ain’t much! Good luck though, I hope that PvE will not be worse off with this overhaul.

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Posted by: Miku Lawrence.6329

Miku Lawrence.6329

Anet is deliberately moving away from passive play for the Mesmer and that this naturally affects Phantasm builds. (PvE and PvP!)

It is irrelevant passive or active, its PvE; You won’t kill the mobs by interrupting them or removing their boons.

It seems that Anet feels that Phantasms should be only supplementary in nature rather then a fundamental play-style.

60% of our damage is supplementary. Sure.

That aside, it may not be much for PvE, but the 1s invuln at least should do something

It has a 10 second CD, you spawn 2-3 phantasms every 8 second (swap/signet).

want to try more active builds in PvE. They are improving Conditions in PvE, Confusion will get boosted as well, and you will be able to do some serious boon sharing in a Boon/Support Shatter build for example.

Conditions are always subpar unless Tough skin. Shatter is burst and you need steady DPS instead. Bonn share isn’t mesmer’s job, warrior and ele cover that and are mandatory to any team comp.

We will also have a ton more reflect options. Just on dodge roll alone or using BF, and/or using a Manipulation which will apparently include Mirror.

Its self reflect, low uptime and totally unreliable in teamplay due to bodyblock.

Much tankier builds will also be possible thanks to baseline IP making IR a viable choice for self-healing on shatter, and traited staff now providing on-demand Protection and more Chaos Armor in general.

Ele’s (waterfields) and Guardian’s job. Chaos armor is a weak combo in PvE (if not the weakest, tho lifesteal bolts… lmao).

As for Sword being the only melee option for PvE, isn’t Staff with IE and the Dueling line going to do pretty well too? Lots of bouncing Burn, bleed, and Confusion & Bleed on crits? (Not to mention Fury & Might)

Fury and Might from staff are selfboons, warrior and ele give permanent fury and might. Isn’t bouncing autoattacks more passive than swapping phantasms?
Sword is still better mathematically. If conditions really become a thing, engineer and warriors will cover that role (unless something is done with confusion in pve being garbage).

Snow Crows [SC]

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Posted by: Toeofdoom.6152

Toeofdoom.6152

We’re good enough that our regular fractal 50 groups with 2 of us (not meta) go just fine – but when I play guard or thief at lower levels the damage difference is clear. I think in theory with 3 swordsmen up our damage is still quite good but I’m not an expert there. I think we also tend to remove boons most.

I do see a few interesting points in this patch – specifically:

Quickness is a boon – does it use boon duration? does it stack duration? does signet of inspiration copy it? Does it have a cap? (If the stream addressed this directly, please tell me!)

With a cap of 30 seconds or higher and “Yes” to all the other questions a pair of mesmers can provide quickness… to the entire team… for the entire run. Even if ANet missed this it would be nerfed immediately, but a cap of 5-10s and no duration stacking would still give us room to work.

Mantra trait Mantra of pain with HM is actually a DPS boost of a few percent in a rotation – but the change to ferocity is tricky. The point where it matches the old trait is tricky to calculate but it’s somewhere near 90 ferocity per stack (6% crit damage).

If you loop Charge mantra -> sword AA chain -> sword AA chain continually, you’ll average 4 stacks of the ferocity boost. Obviously it gets trickier in a chain, but menders purity may also provide a stack. Given it may affect phantasms too and just requires one utility… worth watching but not huge unless it’s AOE.

Cooldown traits
The phantasm shatter recharge trait is worth checking out – I suspect it actually means 2s per phantasm shattered. If that’s the case, IP mind wrack could be added to the rotation occasionally. It may require fancy timing to immediately drop another 3 phantasms (IE shatter – cast new phantasm before they pop and reduce CD?)

Unfortunately most traits would be difficult to work in effectively. If sinister dps or interrupts are relevant the staff trait is very interesting.

Interrupts
While they’re fight specific, quickness, damage, power block and free duelists may be worth working in somehow.

In summary: I doubt much will change our position (unless quickness abuse is a thing) but it will be fun to explore options. Most look like a heap of button pressing for small benefits but ANet may be aiming for exactly that!

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Posted by: Kaiyanwan.8521

Kaiyanwan.8521

Actually, I am quite happy about the wider spectrum of shatter builds possible in PvE.

But, I am very unhappy about the GS trait being placed as GM trait, no cool. Should be a master trait as it is now.

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Posted by: ODB.6891

ODB.6891

…it seems to me that people are simply resistant to the fact that Anet is deliberately moving away from passive play for the Mesmer and that this naturally affects Phantasm builds. (PvE and PvP!)

I have no problems at all with PvE moving away from “passive play”. In fact, I would love a direct damage build option that does not involve phantasms or illusions at all. Completely remove the entire passive component from mesmers. What I do have a problem with is the fact that the only direct damage melee option for mesmers in PvE is being gutted by what I hope are unintentional poor placements of necessary traits in this new set up. Phantasms are the bulk of the direct damage of a PvE melee mesmer. Phantasms also comprise the bulk of the utility of this same direct damage PvE melee build (reflect, aoe, cripple, etc). I actually prefer to be in direct control of all such effects instead of depending on phantasms to be positioned perfectly and not die instantly. I prefer to control when I have effects such as protection and regen…versus hoping phantasms stay alive to provide those effects. So yeah, bring on the active play…give me a direct damage melee build with minimal passive play (no illusions). Somehow I doubt this is really what ANET is actually trying to do with mesmers though. I’m more inclined to believe they just have the PvP goggles on currently and can only see that part of the game right now.

It seems that Anet feels that Phantasms should be only supplementary in nature rather then a fundamental play-style.

Then move our direct damage back onto the mesmer’s attacks and do the same with our group utility and survivability

That aside, it may not be much for PvE, but the 1s invuln at least should do something and is almost free as long as you’re going for Wardens Feedback anyway.

I would have to disagree with you on how anything in the inspiration trait line is free…considering the closest thing to a damage modifier in that entire trait line is Warden’s Feedback. The opportunity cost of choosing inspiration as 1/3 of your available trait lines is huge…compared to damage modifiers and functionality lost from not choosing a different trait line.

Perhaps Anet felt it would require a focus away from Phantasms, to make people even want to try more active builds in PvE. They are improving Conditions in PvE, Confusion will get boosted as well

Honestly, conditions are trash in PvE and they always will be for instanced group content. Conditions are more passive play than illusions in my opinion. Confusion will always be weak, just like retaliation. ANET is not going to put in the resources to split confusion between PvP and PvE, so they will not let it get to the point where it is making a significant impact on PvP. That’s why retaliation and confusion are in their current state now. If I wanted to play a shatter build, I wouldn’t even be having this conversation. Shatter is a burst build anyway, its inherently weak in PvE because it isn’t sustained damage. It was nerfed for a reason in PvP, players don’t like getting blanked by aoe shatters. Again, the likelihood of them devoting resources to making different levels of shatter effects for PvE from PvP is almost non existent.

We will also have a ton more reflect options. Just on dodge roll alone or using BF, and/or using a Manipulation which will apparently include Mirror.

The name of the game is team utility in PvE. These options are selfish, meaning they only protect the mesmer…not the party. This puts us in Necromancer status with non party contribution.

Much tankier builds will also be possible…

That’s all well and good if that’s what you are after. I personally wouldn’t waste anyone’s time with a “tanky” build in instanced PvE.

As for Sword being the only melee option for PvE, isn’t Staff with IE and the Dueling line going to do pretty well too? Lots of bouncing Burn, bleed, and Confusion & Bleed on crits? (Not to mention Fury & Might) Trait that sucker and this could make a seriously tanky melee-range build with BD and RI for boons/heals on shatter.

Staff is a ranged weapon. Again with the “tanky”. The whole point of the phantasm direct damage build is for a direct damage option…not for condi.

Mesmer in PvE: Your Hopes/Concerns?

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Posted by: keenlam.4753

keenlam.4753

In fact, I would love a direct damage build option that does not involve phantasms or illusions at all.

This I fear would never happen as clearly the idea of the class is to rely on our illusions for dmg. And in PvE, phantasm builds have always been the go-to builds. Although we might see shatter builds become a bit more popular in PvE environments.

I have no problems at all with PvE moving away from “passive play”.

Then let me explain to you how you would rejoice as PvE mes got buffed with this change.

A phantasm build usually specs into Domination, Dueling and Inspiration. With the new system, one could still spec in same traitlines and get more out of it as I explain below.

1) Change to Empowering Mantras and Harmonious Mantras gm traits:
the new HM is a combination of both but the dmg bonus got reworked to now provide Ferocity bonus stacks, from what I know it would mean not only the mesmer gets the dmg boost but also our phantasms. (feel free to correct me if I’m wrong)
The trade-off ofc is this dmg boost uptime is reduced compared to the old EM where u slot and camp with your mantra charges and I believe you would agree with me this is not a healthy playstyle.

2) Change to Mender’s Purity:
This trait now activates Mantra Cleanse, which in turn will proc HM give u 1 additional ferocity stack. So basically whenever u use mantra heal, u get 2 stacks.
Great synergy here. And more healing to keep your teammates and/or phantasms alive.

3) More access to reflect:
No one can deny mesmers excel in reflect role in a group and we just get even better now. Reflect dmg is scaled with Ferocity so again this synergizes with HM trait.

4) More ways to share boons including the new Quickness boon without the need to sacrifice any dmg potential of your own.
So if a warrior can gain 25 stacks of might and share it to the group, a mesmer can gain Quickness and share it too. Both classes act as dmg amplifier without overlapping their roles (so they dont make each other redundant). 2 PS warriors would be less optimal then 1 PS warrior and 1 boonshare mesmer. How about that?

And lastly,

5) No more fear of stat loss when speccing into a traitline
Thanks Anet for this decoupling of traitline and stats.

Right now a mantra PvE build would spec 6/6/x because u can grab all the offensive stats. Meanwhile, the x/6/0/5/x phant PvE build while being more versatile clearly has less offensive stats.
With the new system, u can spec whatever traitline to optimize your dmg thru traits. I know its crazy right?

I can see one of the new PvE mantra/phantasm meta builds would be like Dom/Dueling/Inspiration (6/6/0/6/0 in our current notion).

Domination: Empowered Illusions, Furious Interruption (to gain Quickness so you can share), Power Block (more ways to deal dmg on your own).
Dueling: Phantasmal Fury, Blade Training or Evasive Mirror, Harmonious Mantras
Inspiration: Mender’s Purity, Warden’s Feedback, Illusionary Inspiration.

Mesmers would have new role in group (dmg amplifier thru quickness boonshare) while strengthing their old role (reflect).

TL,DR: For people think that your dmg get nerfed in PvE, may I suggest in the new trait system:
- Grab Harmonious Mantras, Mender’s Purity traits
- Equip Mantra of Recovery and Mantra of Pain
- Put Mantra of Pain on auto-attack
So now you can deal more dmg on your own, stacking ferocity for even more dmg while healing 2k every 5s. Meanwhile your phantasms do their own thing as they have always been doing.

(edited by keenlam.4753)

Mesmer in PvE: Your Hopes/Concerns?

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Posted by: Me Games Ma.8426

Me Games Ma.8426

I really like that HM now increases ferocity. Do you know why?
Ferocity affects our Phantasms. Phantasm damage was never increased by any of those “xy% more dmg” things. NOW it is increased by this trait.
I understand the concerns of it beeing rewarding to wasteful play though.

Mindblossom – Sylvari – Mesmer – Jumpingpuzzler
Equinox [EqnX]
Riverside[DE]

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Posted by: Raccoon.6907

Raccoon.6907

In fact, I would love a direct damage build option that does not involve phantasms or illusions at all.

This I fear would never happen as clearly the idea of the class is to rely on our illusions for dmg. And in PvE, phantasm builds have always been the go-to builds. Although we might see shatter builds become a bit more popular in PvE environments.

I have no problems at all with PvE moving away from “passive play”.

Then let me explain to you how you would rejoice as PvE mes got buffed with this change.

A phantasm build usually specs into Domination, Dueling and Inspiration. With the new system, one could still spec in same traitlines and get more out of it as I explain below.

1) Change to Empowering Mantras and Harmonious Mantras gm traits:
the new HM is a combination of both but the dmg bonus got reworked to now provide Ferocity bonus stacks, from what I know it would mean not only the mesmer gets the dmg boost but also our phantasms. (feel free to correct me if I’m wrong)
The trade-off ofc is this dmg boost uptime is reduced compared to the old EM where u slot and camp with your mantra charges and I believe you would agree with me this is not a healthy playstyle.

2) Change to Mender’s Purity:
This trait now activates Mantra Cleanse, which in turn will proc HM give u 1 additional ferocity stack. So basically whenever u use mantra heal, u get 2 stacks.
Great synergy here. And more healing to keep your teammates and/or phantasms alive.

3) More access to reflect:
No one can deny mesmers excel in reflect role in a group and we just get even better now. Reflect dmg is scaled with Ferocity so again this synergizes with HM trait.

4) More ways to share boons including the new Quickness boon without the need to sacrifice any dmg potential of your own.
So if a warrior can gain 25 stacks of might and share it to the group, a mesmer can gain Quickness and share it too. Both classes act as dmg amplifier without overlapping their roles (so they dont make each other redundant). 2 PS warriors would be less optimal then 1 PS warrior and 1 boonshare mesmer. How about that?

And lastly,

5) No more fear of stat loss when speccing into a traitline
Thanks Anet for this decoupling of traitline and stats.

Right now a mantra PvE build would spec 6/6/x because u can grab all the offensive stats. Meanwhile, the x/6/0/5/x phant PvE build while being more versatile clearly has less offensive stats.
With the new system, u can spec whatever traitline to optimize your dmg thru traits. I know its crazy right?

I can see one of the new PvE mantra/phantasm meta builds would be like Dom/Dueling/Inspiration (6/6/0/6/0 in our current notion).

Domination: Empowered Illusions, Furious Interruption (to gain Quickness so you can share), Power Block (more ways to deal dmg on your own).
Dueling: Phantasmal Fury, Blade Training or Evasive Mirror, Harmonious Mantras
Inspiration: Mender’s Purity, Warden’s Feedback, Illusionary Inspiration.

Mesmers would have new role in group (dmg amplifier thru quickness boonshare) while strengthing their old role (reflect).

TL,DR: For people think that your dmg get nerfed in PvE, may I suggest in the new trait system:
- Grab Harmonious Mantras, Mender’s Purity traits
- Equip Mantra of Recovery and Mantra of Pain
- Put Mantra of Pain on auto-attack
So now you can deal more dmg on your own, stacking ferocity for even more dmg while healing 2k every 5s. Meanwhile your phantasms do their own thing as they have always been doing.

I like the idea of this build but I feel there are issues here that you’re not really adressing:
- Furious Interruption and Power Block are good traits but they still rely on interruption. The way dungeons and fractals we just can’t get enough interruptions off to be able to make these traits worthwhile. This also kind of ruins the idea of sharing quickness because the uptime just won’t be worth it in optimal team builds. Now for the new HoT content this may work, but we can’t judge that yet.
- Harmonious Mantras just doesn’t seem to be strong enough in its current iteration. Not only do you have to specifically equip mantra of pain which doesn’t really help our sustained damage dealing potential and has no real utility, there is also the question on whether it actually is a damage increase in the long run. It’s hard to imagine that the temporary ferocity boosts beat a straight up 8 or 12% damage multiplier, over the course of an entire fight.
Additionally, if we are running Mantra of Pain we have to continually channel this during fights, during which you cannot DPS at all.

Besides all this I feel some of the traitlines are just not balanced in terms of build options but i’ll go into that in a seperate post.

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Posted by: tobascodagama.2961

tobascodagama.2961

I like the idea of this build but I feel there are issues here that you’re not really adressing:
- Furious Interruption and Power Block are good traits but they still rely on interruption. The way dungeons and fractals we just can’t get enough interruptions off to be able to make these traits worthwhile. This also kind of ruins the idea of sharing quickness because the uptime just won’t be worth it in optimal team builds. Now for the new HoT content this may work, but we can’t judge that yet.

I think your general criticism here is correct, however it’s important not to forget about the Defiance reworks. Dazes will be one of the fastest ways to burn through a Defiance bar, and we have a lot of them. So we probably won’t see PvE “interrupt” builds, but there may still be a PvE niche for a Due/Cha/Ins build Daze/Boonshare build that takes Bountiful Disillusionment.

Rather than passing around Quickness (since you don’t have a reliable source of it), you’d be handing out Fury and Stability from Diversion shatters (as well as Mantra Strength stacks? or is that not a shareable boon?). And you’d want to be using Diversion shatter to melt through Defiance bars anyway, since Daze is weighted pretty heavily.

The Defiance melting and Fury sharing would happen on top of the reflects that Mesmers are already doing in our current Dungeon builds, too. (And, again, we’re actually getting even better access to reflects than we ever had before.)

Amberley Avalen – Charr Mesmer
Tanya Larina – Human Thief
Finchy Whyte – Sylvari Ranger

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Posted by: Miku Lawrence.6329

Miku Lawrence.6329

I really like that HM now increases ferocity. Do you know why?
Ferocity affects our Phantasms. Phantasm damage was never increased by any of those “xy% more dmg” things. NOW it is increased by this trait.
I understand the concerns of it beeing rewarding to wasteful play though.

It says ferocity but writes +4%. Maybe it’s both?

To everyone moist about Quickness share, forget it. First on all, Time warp pulses every 1 second for 1 second of quickness so you can NOT double its duration with SoI. Secondly :

On another note, […] the quickness on interrupt trait doesn’t trigger when the interrupt isnt complete. It seems as if only effects that would get transferred to the opposing party are allowed to pass through defiance.

Here goes your imba quickness share on bosses.

I agree that the signet is great to get for free for party support, though I wonder how they’ll handle how you’ll deal with the internal cooldown.
It seems like you’ll easily waste it as you can’t see if its on or off cooldown. I think you’re right to say its a likely subject to change. Right now, however, it seems lacklustery, and not worth grandmaster position.

And here goes your boon share whatsoever.

Dazes will be one of the fastest ways to burn through a Defiance bar.
[…]
Rather than passing around Quickness (since you don’t have a reliable source of it), you’d be handing out Fury and Stability
[…]
(And, again, we’re actually getting even better access to reflects than we ever had before.)

1. Wrong, double deep freeze is the fastest way to burn defiance bar. Daze wieghts less than Stun.
2. Even tho Fury has 100% uptime with one elementalist and Stability is covered by guardian, (the mere seconds of unreliable shatter are not enough) Signet of Inspiration is on a 45 second CD and is wasted upon first phantasm summon (no stability copy).
3. Wrong, we don’t. Just because you get 1sec of mirror after an evade doesn’t make it valuable or even close to reliable. One can however argue Temporal enchanter and baseline CD reduction on Feedback are “an even better access to reflects” while it isnt as these traits were already picked if needed.

Snow Crows [SC]

(edited by Miku Lawrence.6329)

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Posted by: Zania.8461

Zania.8461

Honestly, at this point my PvE hope is that elite specialization will make mesmers viable in PvE. My concern is that the current trait layout feels like it was populated using blindfolded dev with a dartboard.

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Posted by: ODB.6891

ODB.6891

I have no problems at all with PvE moving away from “passive play”.

Then let me explain to you how you would rejoice as PvE mes got buffed with this change.

A phantasm build usually specs into Domination, Dueling and Inspiration. With the new system, one could still spec in same traitlines and get more out of it as I explain below.

1) Change to Empowering Mantras and Harmonious Mantras gm traits:
the new HM is a combination of both but the dmg bonus got reworked to now provide Ferocity bonus stacks, from what I know it would mean not only the mesmer gets the dmg boost but also our phantasms. (feel free to correct me if I’m wrong)
The trade-off ofc is this dmg boost uptime is reduced compared to the old EM where u slot and camp with your mantra charges and I believe you would agree with me this is not a healthy playstyle.

2) Change to Mender’s Purity:
This trait now activates Mantra Cleanse, which in turn will proc HM give u 1 additional ferocity stack. So basically whenever u use mantra heal, u get 2 stacks.
Great synergy here. And more healing to keep your teammates and/or phantasms alive.

3) More access to reflect:
No one can deny mesmers excel in reflect role in a group and we just get even better now. Reflect dmg is scaled with Ferocity so again this synergizes with HM trait.

4) More ways to share boons including the new Quickness boon without the need to sacrifice any dmg potential of your own.
So if a warrior can gain 25 stacks of might and share it to the group, a mesmer can gain Quickness and share it too. Both classes act as dmg amplifier without overlapping their roles (so they dont make each other redundant). 2 PS warriors would be less optimal then 1 PS warrior and 1 boonshare mesmer. How about that?

And lastly,

5) No more fear of stat loss when speccing into a traitline
Thanks Anet for this decoupling of traitline and stats.

Right now a mantra PvE build would spec 6/6/x because u can grab all the offensive stats. Meanwhile, the x/6/0/5/x phant PvE build while being more versatile clearly has less offensive stats.
With the new system, u can spec whatever traitline to optimize your dmg thru traits. I know its crazy right?

I can see one of the new PvE mantra/phantasm meta builds would be like Dom/Dueling/Inspiration (6/6/0/6/0 in our current notion).

Domination: Empowered Illusions, Furious Interruption (to gain Quickness so you can share), Power Block (more ways to deal dmg on your own).
Dueling: Phantasmal Fury, Blade Training or Evasive Mirror, Harmonious Mantras
Inspiration: Mender’s Purity, Warden’s Feedback, Illusionary Inspiration.

Mesmers would have new role in group (dmg amplifier thru quickness boonshare) while strengthing their old role (reflect).

TL,DR: For people think that your dmg get nerfed in PvE, may I suggest in the new trait system:
- Grab Harmonious Mantras, Mender’s Purity traits
- Equip Mantra of Recovery and Mantra of Pain
- Put Mantra of Pain on auto-attack
So now you can deal more dmg on your own, stacking ferocity for even more dmg while healing 2k every 5s. Meanwhile your phantasms do their own thing as they have always been doing.

All I see is Mantras repeated again and again, while still having to deal with phantasms/illusions. Worst of both worlds in my opinion. I may be personally biased, but I absolutely hate the mechanics of mantras. I hate having to worry about charges on them. I hate having to channel them to have them ready again…either in our out of combat. I hate having them forced on me to be effective. I think I hate the concept of having to spam them during combat (and then have to deal with the resultant channeling to get them ready again). I also don’t think the changes to them will really equal a net gain for us dps wise due to having to stop and channel them during combat. Even if they did, I still hate being forced or coerced into loading up my utility bar with mantras versus other utilities I would actually rather use.

I actually like not having to worry about stats associated with trait lines anymore…that was a huge and positive change. I don’t know if I said that in this thread already, but I have in multiple other threads. I have also said multiple times that I think their changes are great as a whole…I just think that PvE mesmer’s are getting the short end of the stick here. Its like the developer who does mesmer balance has his/her brain stuck on mantras and PvP.

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Posted by: Neijala Ceya.1785

Neijala Ceya.1785

All I see is Mantras repeated again and again, while still having to deal with phantasms/illusions. Worst of both worlds in my opinion. I may be personally biased, but I absolutely hate the mechanics of mantras. I hate having to worry about charges on them. I hate having to channel them to have them ready again…either in our out of combat. I hate having them forced on me to be effective. I think I hate the concept of having to spam them during combat (and then have to deal with the resultant channeling to get them ready again). I also don’t think the changes to them will really equal a net gain for us dps wise due to having to stop and channel them during combat. Even if they did, I still hate being forced or coerced into loading up my utility bar with mantras versus other utilities I would actually rather use.

I actually like not having to worry about stats associated with trait lines anymore…that was a huge and positive change. I don’t know if I said that in this thread already, but I have in multiple other threads. I have also said multiple times that I think their changes are great as a whole…I just think that PvE mesmer’s are getting the short end of the stick here. Its like the developer who does mesmer balance has his/her brain stuck on mantras and PvP.

Totally agree with you!
I certainly miss good PvE GM traits. HM is the only useful one and I don’t like it x)
It’s also annoying that the useful traits are spread over Domination, Duelling and Illusion while Warden’s Feedback is in Inspiration.
Some nice solution would be:

  1. Take the phantsam traits from illusion and combine them to a gm trait in domination
  2. let glamours grant stability instead of superspeed
  3. a trait to increase reflect dmg about 25% would be nice too (the guard will still have better dmg modifiers, but let’s be realistic)

I would like to see dmg removed from HM and make it a master trait again. In PvP it could be paired with DE and PvE Mesmers won’t have to spam mantras and let their playstyle and skills be totally dominated by just one trait for a dmg increases other classes get for doing nothing.

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Posted by: Spooksie.4930

Spooksie.4930

I have a concern because I’m a casual player and I kept hearing the devs repeat that mesmer is going to be harder to play than before.

So the take away I got is that this class is going to be harder to be effective with unless you’re the type of player that will spend hours on end to try to play a class that most other people will find too aggravating to main.

Should I just shelve my mesmer then?

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Posted by: Stormbolt.7293

Stormbolt.7293

I feel like a lot of people are looking at this wrong. We may have awful DPS in PvE, but we should be looking at the two reflects, mass condition removal, stability, and other utilities that Mesmers provide.

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Posted by: Spooksie.4930

Spooksie.4930

I dunno…I just hear “For the expansion we’ve planned to make your class EVEN MORE of a pita than a pleasure to play than it was previously.” from the dev side.

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Posted by: redcomyn.4651

redcomyn.4651

As a solo pve player, I don’t care about mass condition removal, or many of the utilities. I need to kill the MOB, not prance around playing with butterflies and hoping that someone will come by and kill it (or them) since I can’t with very little dps, after they remove my ability to fight back effectively.

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Posted by: Zenith.7301

Zenith.7301

It is no coincidence that the same dev that works on the mesmer also produced the lackluster necro trait reveals.

He’s not a PvE dev he’s a WvW/PvP dev and it shows, with his obsession on interrupts that aren’t even worthwhile in PvE since a thief or ele shed defiance stacks fine without wasting utilities or killing their damage output.

In fact it’s puzzling they seem intent on making the mesmer an interrupt class when an engineer or thief or warrior have far more frequent access to CC.

You have a longass cd on diversion, offhand pistol, and mantra of distraction. Offhand sword can also come in but it’s less reliable. Diversion kills all your sustained damage potential.

Then the Harmonious Mantra change, that 8 sec buff duration needs to go up to 15.

By the way, saying the change is good because phantasms benefit from staff is the wrong way to look at it. The fact is, % modifiers should have applied to illusions instead of needing workarounds.

The mesmer minor traits are horrendous as well. especially the inspiration ones. Retaliation on phantasms is worthless. 3 sec regen pulse on a phantasm is worthless. Regen is a garbage boon in PvE because you need spike healing against the kind of spike damage that PvE puts out, it takes regen a decade to heal what a mob does to you in a single autoattack that takes off a third of your health.

I want our class dev traded for the Guardian/Thief guy.

Hell, I’m still scratching my head as to why such a strong class as the engineer was the class that got a revamp instead of mesmer/ranger/necro.

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Posted by: Xyonon.3987

Xyonon.3987

you know defiance gets removed right? but i have to agree – 80% of the traits are for pvp and 19% are garbage and 1% are good for pve. there is just ONE grandmaster trait that is really useful in pve, 1 that is acceptable and 13 that are for pvp. i really wish they would balance the classes around the game (pvp / wvw / pve) and not just try to stuff the mes into the pvp only role. this really sux and right now i’m pretty unhappy with mes in pve. new traits are a part of it … disappointment yea :/ the other thing is the runes and sigil affection on phantasms… fairness op right?

Ziggs Ironeye – Engineer | Madame Le Blanc – Mesmer | Mentor (PvE) | EU
“Mentoring engineers / mesmers and showing you what you can do with your fantastic class!
Just pm me for my advice! Always eager to help!”

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Posted by: Strill.2591

Strill.2591

It seems that Anet feels that Phantasms should be only supplementary in nature rather then a fundamental play-style.

Unfortunately, Phantasms make up about half of our sustained DPS. Mesmer weapons are deliberately weaker than other classes’ weapons because they assume your phantasms will be contributing an enormous amount. To add insult to injury, even with three phantasms up all the time, Mesmers still do significantly less damage than other classes, due to our lack of damage multiplier traits.

If they really meant for phantasms to be supplementary, they’d need to lower phantasm damage, and boost all other damage.

I want our class dev traded for the Guardian/Thief guy.

My only hope is the part where he mentions that Phantasm Mesmer is counter-intuitive, since it makes you not want to shatter. Granted, the trait they added is kitten poor and does nothing to fix this problem, but I still hope for the day when this sentiment comes to the forefront and Mesmers just get redesigned so as not to be hamstrung by our reliance on phantasms.

(edited by Strill.2591)

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Posted by: Zania.8461

Zania.8461

F5 shatter – increases damage by 33% for each phantasm shattered. Duration of buff 30s, recast 30s? Might be a bit overboard. Lets try again.
F5 shatter – applies quickness to mesmer, 10s per phantasm shattered, 30s recast.

This is better, but with boon sharing this will make time wrap completely obsolete. Still this will make gameplay quite a bit more dynamic. Unfortunately this will likely make mesmers a required party member (along with guardian for their symbols), which ANet will probably not go for.

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

We need some skill that can allow us to do more damage when we don’t have illusions out. Simple as that. Something to mitigate the impractical nature of Mesmer’s professional mechanics in PVE.

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Posted by: apharma.3741

apharma.3741

All I see is Mantras repeated again and again, while still having to deal with phantasms/illusions. Worst of both worlds in my opinion. I may be personally biased, but I absolutely hate the mechanics of mantras. I hate having to worry about charges on them. I hate having to channel them to have them ready again…either in our out of combat. I hate having them forced on me to be effective. I think I hate the concept of having to spam them during combat (and then have to deal with the resultant channeling to get them ready again). I also don’t think the changes to them will really equal a net gain for us dps wise due to having to stop and channel them during combat. Even if they did, I still hate being forced or coerced into loading up my utility bar with mantras versus other utilities I would actually rather use.

I actually like not having to worry about stats associated with trait lines anymore…that was a huge and positive change. I don’t know if I said that in this thread already, but I have in multiple other threads. I have also said multiple times that I think their changes are great as a whole…I just think that PvE mesmer’s are getting the short end of the stick here. Its like the developer who does mesmer balance has his/her brain stuck on mantras and PvP.

Pretty much this.

I always hated the way the mantra damage trait worked but the new trait isn’t any better in my opinion. Where other classes get straight up do more damage because they’re on fire, bleeding, you’re using a symbol etc instead Mesmer gets a smallish boost to crit damage when using a mantra for a small amount of time.

At the moment playing a Mesmer in PvE feels either like playing a cut price guardian with less stability and having to put more effort in or some kind of terrible thief knock off trying to help bad people skip easy stuff.

The damage at the moment is very underwhelming, bosses neuter the class mechanics with AoE and straight up don’t target anything but you so no “hiding” with your clones. I feel that Mesmer with these traits will be reduced to a reflect bot or condition cleanser and even then, why bother when a guardian does all that for little to no effort and does more damage more reliably.

Also a lot of people are talking about interrupts, they’re supposed to be changing defiance into that break bar. From what I understand that means bosses are essentially immune to every CC except a timed spike at the right (as in designated, well telegraphed, neon signposted) time. So gg on that.

As far as I’m concerned the best thing to do would be add a caveat into mental torment where it does 200% more damage to NPCs or whatever would make it on par with the ludicrous damage other professions can dish out in 10s. Then we get PvE shatter Mesmer, devs can stop worrying about passive play and PvP isn’t ruined by Helseth wrecking a whole team with 1 shatter.

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Posted by: Strill.2591

Strill.2591

Also a lot of people are talking about interrupts, they’re supposed to be changing defiance into that break bar. From what I understand that means bosses are essentially immune to every CC except a timed spike at the right (as in designated, well telegraphed, neon signposted) time. So gg on that.

That’s how it works already.

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Posted by: apharma.3741

apharma.3741

That’s how it works already.

No it isn’t. Now they can be CC’d once and then gain stacks that need to be removed before you can CC it again. This allows a co-ordinated group to control when they hard CC the boss as opposed to a predetermined time.

Generally my parties use deep freeze on bosses to get a 3s window of safety. This allows us 3s to Rez someone if needed on higher level fractals or just allows us to DPS safely (them long channels are a b***h) during the freeze period. Stripping is then done down to 1 stack left, we check how everyone is, if everyone is good and healthy we strip, freeze, dps. Rinse, repeat.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defiance

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

@ODB

I don’t mind the concept behind mantras. That is, the original one. Ever since that was lost, the things gained multi-charges and were made weaker in turn, I dislike them. I’d rather have seen a proper rebalancing of the original idea (cast time after skill use, but higher cast-time in turn).

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: Gyler.8150

Gyler.8150

Could replace the whole retal on phantasms trait to aegis every X seconds (10?) That would be good, Especially now with the whole chronomancer thing, i can’t see a single reason to use mesmer in a party setting.

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Posted by: Xyonon.3987

Xyonon.3987

Rather than aegis I’d like to have invuln on mesmer dodge – so you can time your evades like aoe oneshots or something.

Ziggs Ironeye – Engineer | Madame Le Blanc – Mesmer | Mentor (PvE) | EU
“Mentoring engineers / mesmers and showing you what you can do with your fantastic class!
Just pm me for my advice! Always eager to help!”

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Posted by: Korusef.3714

Korusef.3714

Or when player evades/distorts so do the clones.

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Posted by: Xyonon.3987

Xyonon.3987

that’s about the same, just that clones aren’t really capable of doing dodge rolls, or rather it will become complicated. so just → mesmer invuln / dodge = phantasms invuln

Ziggs Ironeye – Engineer | Madame Le Blanc – Mesmer | Mentor (PvE) | EU
“Mentoring engineers / mesmers and showing you what you can do with your fantastic class!
Just pm me for my advice! Always eager to help!”

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Posted by: Gyler.8150

Gyler.8150

All those are great suggestions, should be added into the trait “phantasms gain distortion on spawn and when player dodges”.

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Posted by: Me Games Ma.8426

Me Games Ma.8426

All those are great suggestions, should be added into the trait “phantasms gain distortion on spawn and when player dodges”.

and without icd pls >.<

Mindblossom – Sylvari – Mesmer – Jumpingpuzzler
Equinox [EqnX]
Riverside[DE]

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Posted by: Strill.2591

Strill.2591

All those are great suggestions, should be added into the trait “phantasms gain distortion on spawn and when player dodges”.

and without icd pls >.<

I was baffled when they mentioned that trait and made a quip about how powerful it was. Like, what planet are you guys from? Phantasms are not any more powerful than other classes’ attack skills, and yet we have to take a trait to make them not die instantly, and you’re calling that powerful?

It’s like being punched and forced to say “thank you”.

(edited by Strill.2591)

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Posted by: Doam.8305

Doam.8305

PVE is dead for clones as like the TC said there is way to much AoE

Phantasm discussion thus far seems on tract since even though they’ll die quickly they at least last long enough to accomplish something. Agree with the distortion too but all this survivability talk probably wouldn’t make it in due to the PvP aspect. Clone death was such an easy fix but adding survivability like people are talking about to fill the gap would just make other PvP players QQ so I find it doubtful.

Reducing the cast time and shortening the CD might be workable though

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Posted by: Korusef.3714

Korusef.3714

With the new traits it might make more sense to summon phantasm and shatter it after attack.

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Posted by: Gav.1425

Gav.1425

PVE

Bosses kill illusions too quickly, gutting phantasm IE mesmer pve damage.

>>Give us an F5 shatter that gives all of our illusions distortion for x seconds (3~).
>> The shatter should then proc all the new shatter synergy crap they’re adding for us so Phan builts will have a use for shattering.

Mesmer’s need to offer more value to their PvE group.

>>Phalanx (from warrior) should have been a Mesmer trait. Why the kitten would they give warriors Empower Allies (+150 power to allies), banners, vuln generation, AND the ability to perma stack 25 might? All on one class?

>>Mesmer should have gotten something in GS Mastery like might on crits with GS and a GM trait sharing might to allies (IE Phalanx). I see they are giving us something similar with Illisionary Inspiration (whenever you cast a phantasm, cast signet of inspiration aka copy all boons on you to allies – Inspiration GM trait)

>>Another option is a trait that gives an effect like empower allies but based on having phantasms out. Different stats maybe per each phantasm (ie zerker gives power, dualist precision, warden gives feroc… or w/e) gives a trait-buff that stacks up to 3 times. 100 per stack, 300 total because it’s hard to keep 3 phan up.

TW

>When TW got the nerf from 100% to 50%, it should have had the cooldown reduced. Since they are making the glamour cooldown trait innate/built in, and TW is a now a glamour, I’d like to see the cooldown reduced.

Let’s hope alacrity will get us higher on the need list without making us alacrity buff bots.

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Posted by: ODB.6891

ODB.6891

PVE

Bosses kill illusions too quickly, gutting phantasm IE mesmer pve damage.

>>Give us an F5 shatter that gives all of our illusions distortion for x seconds (3~).
>> The shatter should then proc all the new shatter synergy crap they’re adding for us so Phan builts will have a use for shattering.

Mesmer’s need to offer more value to their PvE group.

>>Phalanx (from warrior) should have been a Mesmer trait. Why the kitten would they give warriors Empower Allies (+150 power to allies), banners, vuln generation, AND the ability to perma stack 25 might? All on one class?

>>Mesmer should have gotten something in GS Mastery like might on crits with GS and a GM trait sharing might to allies (IE Phalanx). I see they are giving us something similar with Illisionary Inspiration (whenever you cast a phantasm, cast signet of inspiration aka copy all boons on you to allies – Inspiration GM trait)

>>Another option is a trait that gives an effect like empower allies but based on having phantasms out. Different stats maybe per each phantasm (ie zerker gives power, dualist precision, warden gives feroc… or w/e) gives a trait-buff that stacks up to 3 times. 100 per stack, 300 total because it’s hard to keep 3 phan up.

TW

>When TW got the nerf from 100% to 50%, it should have had the cooldown reduced. Since they are making the glamour cooldown trait innate/built in, and TW is a now a glamour, I’d like to see the cooldown reduced.

Let’s hope alacrity will get us higher on the need list without making us alacrity buff bots.

I’m on board with the idea that they should have baked in the phantasm survival on first shatter trait. Every mesmer build has to use phantasms to some degree, and all of them suffer without this new trait. There really should be something else specific to chronomancy in that trait’s place. Too much mesmer utility is tied into phantasms for something like this trait to be optional.

I can’t help but agree on the problem with phantasms dying too quickly to bosses. If they made the phantasm survival on shatter trait baseline, then using the current f4 shatter would take care of that enough to keep a minimum of phantasms active even on bosses…would just require skill/timing to use it when the boss would normally do some aoe and blank all your phantasms.

I’ll never hate on another profession and their group utility, so I have no problems with what other professions bring. I think they have us on the right path with alacrity and quickness to bringing desired utility to groups…its just an issue of how they tune alacrity and quickness as to whether or not it is enough to make a worthwhile impact on the group.

I don’t think GS should be a weapon that focuses any more than it currently does on group boon generation…as it is by default…a weapon that you use when not in proximity to your group. It already has GS #2 that generates might for those in proximity to the clone generated anyway.

I’m against loading any more of our utility to any phantasm due to all the issues with phantasm survivability…especially not to specific phantasms. I think more of our utility should go directly to the mesmer’s weapon skills and shatters by default. This would make it less of a handicap when illusions get destroyed quickly. This would put us more in line with other professions…requiring less ramp up just to break even.

I have high PvE hopes for alacrity. I’ll have fun trying to find a direct damage build tied into chronomancy to be effective/efficient in PvE. Maybe they’ll listen a little more to what we are saying and also maybe they’ll include some direct damage choices in the chronomancy line.

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Posted by: process execution.8014

process execution.8014

Way back before the mesmer was even revealed, I remember suggesting (on Guru) that illusions should only be visible to the enemy they’re targeting. Although this was mostly a thematic suggestion and would, in retrospect, be going a bit too far, I think that making them immune to damage except from their target would still be a brilliant change.

Not only does it make sense thematically, it neatly sidesteps problems caused by incidental AoE damage without having to resort to flat health boosts or blanket AoE immunity.

why waste hours doing something that you get nothing for? Enjoyment? I’d rather run fractals.

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Posted by: Gav.1425

Gav.1425

^ Cool idea. Crazy powerful, but it could work. Doesn’t change Boss fights too much, but still. In a boss fight, right now you have to treat a phantasm like a damage spell with a shatter potential because you know your Zerker isn’t going to whirl more than once vs most bosses. Might as well stack up a bit of a shatter before he goes.

Another thing, phantasms should not compete with players for boons! If no one is around, I can put some boons on my guys. IF players are around, they’re competing. I feel that boons on the mesmer should effect their illusions since boons are only granted to 5 targets.

The only problem is that in PvP, you could easily pick the mesmer because he’s the only one with boons, but honestly, no one has a hard time identifying the real mesmer. It’s usually more the issue of targeting.

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Posted by: process execution.8014

process execution.8014

^ Cool idea. Crazy powerful, but it could work. Doesn’t change Boss fights too much, but still. In a boss fight, right now you have to treat a phantasm like a damage spell with a shatter potential because you know your Zerker isn’t going to whirl more than once vs most bosses. Might as well stack up a bit of a shatter before he goes.

Well, this could be addressed by encounter design e.g. some boss fights include heavy environmental damage (e.g. Aetherblade Fractal, Volcanic Fractal) but as long as it’s coded as such, illusions would be immune. The same applies for adds.

why waste hours doing something that you get nothing for? Enjoyment? I’d rather run fractals.

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Posted by: Azathoth.2098

Azathoth.2098

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