INSTRUCTIONS (By Pyro/Fay)
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/external?l=http%3A%2F%2Fgw2skills.net%2Feditor%2F%3FvhAQNAseWncfCtfilfC%2BfCUrhlejyMAugMqeUb1XF9GitZD-TRBXgAAK%2FU3fIUfQv6PPKBJFQEDjA-e
chrono – chaos – illusions, sword/shield + staff, heal well, calamity, quickness, alacrity, then time warp.
Summon 3 illusions + quickly input f5 – timewarp – shield 5 – all four wells in that order + shield 5 + alll four wells again shatter constantly during rotation
Note from Pyroathiest (who originally posted the concept) – "Tested this in CoE so far. Results are incredible.
When we engage, we have alacrity and quickness until the boss dies. Additionally, I spread ~12 stacks of partywide might, 50% uptime on vigor, and still do quite okish damage ‘for a mesmer’. The warrior in my party was talking about how he hardly even used autoattacks, just continually rolled through weapon skill rotations."
What say you, think this’ll be one of the mandatory rotations for dungeons? There hasn’t been too much Chrono PvE talk lately, and was curious to know the expert opinions.
(edited by Chaos Archangel.5071)
Don’t focus on boons covered by the rest of the group so ditch that staff and chaos traitline.
Here’s a first look, nothing set in stone of course. Your first illusions come from DE+S1+S5 and the rest follows naturally after Shift.
http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgMFqAJ8Bvg~
The traits on dulfy weren’t updated for last beta were they?
((While not focusing on support as usual, the powercreep should melt anything in any dungeon before you need survivability anyways. In raids and FotM we’ll drop something for FB))
(edited by Miku Lawrence.6329)
Staff is for several things. First, PR and warlock can be summoned at 1200 range while approaching a boss to give a very safe 2 illusions for CS. Secondly, chaos storm does quite good power damage, and you’ll be recharging it extremely quickly with the staff trait and alacrity together.
Next, boons translate to more boon duration through chaotic persistence. With chaos, I maintain 5-6 boons more or less permanently, and that means 15% boon duration. Take that away and you lose a drastic amount of uptime on quickness.
Additionally, between this build and herald, your party is pretty much set for might. That means your warrior doesn’t need to take PS and can instead go for a more offensive traitline.
Honestly, the damage difference between your variation and the original is going to be tiny. Mesmers don’t do good damage, especially not when focusing so heavily on this type of support. The difference in quickness uptime will more than compensate for the damage loss, and letting your warrior spec more offensively will only solidify that advantage.
Can’t give advice on pick up group compositions and tactics. For dungeons where fights last sub 40 seconds my build still stands superior.
Staff is for several things. First, PR and warlock can be summoned at 1200 range while approaching a boss to give a very safe 2 illusions for CS. Secondly, chaos storm does quite good power damage, and you’ll be recharging it extremely quickly with the staff trait and alacrity together.
Next, boons translate to more boon duration through chaotic persistence. With chaos, I maintain 5-6 boons more or less permanently, and that means 15% boon duration. Take that away and you lose a drastic amount of uptime on quickness.
Additionally, between this build and herald, your party is pretty much set for might. That means your warrior doesn’t need to take PS and can instead go for a more offensive traitline.
Honestly, the damage difference between your variation and the original is going to be tiny. Mesmers don’t do good damage, especially not when focusing so heavily on this type of support. The difference in quickness uptime will more than compensate for the damage loss, and letting your warrior spec more offensively will only solidify that advantage.
^
To expand, with Herald being able to give 50% boon duration to the party, having a herald to pair up with on might generation means you’ll also be getting a significant boost to your quickness generation.
This advantage scales up in raids, because with Tides of Time having no target limit, Chronomancers are the only game in town for raid-wide quickness, so getting to the 100% boon duration cap means 6s of quickness raid-wide on about a 20s cooldown.
Indeed, Pyro’s build received an upgrade for BWE3, with iAvengers being able to actually provide some alacrity, and Well of Recall providing 2s more alacrity per cast than before, and on a lower cooldown (which more than compensates for the decrease in uptime from Well of Eternity, as the Recall gain is up-front, while the Eternity loss is in long-term uptime).
With a Herald and/or boon food, the build will be able to provide significantly more quickness (up to 100% quickness uptime, actually) to match an increase to 40s or more alacrity. Few bosses in dungeons now make it to 40s, but I expect raids will make more use of the longer alacrity (and uptime will likely matter more in fights that make stacking harder).
As far as the warrior, I’m curious what peoples thoughts are on the dps difference for a warrior being able to skip PS, and does berserker impact that at all?
Can’t give advice on pick up group compositions and tactics. For dungeons where fights last sub 40 seconds my build still stands superior.
1. What? 2. Hardly.
Here’s your comp: ele ele warr chrono herald.
Your build might get what, a 10% increase in damage over mine (generously)? 10% of poor damage is still poor. The damage difference that a warrior could get by speccing offensive instead of PS (lets them use a superior damage rotation with axe instead of camping gs) will be an order of magnitude greater than the tiny gain you’re getting.
Additionally, the fight doesn’t have to reach kitten for the recycle. Without boon durations, your quickness will terminate at 29 seconds instead of 35, so anything past 30s now has a gain due to quickness. While current fights in a full meta group don’t last more than 15 seconds mostly, there’s no point in discussing those since the obvious meta group is enough ice bows for every boss + a troop carrier Mesmer.
Don’t focus on boons covered by the rest of the group so ditch that staff and chaos traitline.
Here’s a first look, nothing set in stone of course. Your first illusions come from DE+S1+S5 and the rest follows naturally after Shift.
http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgMFqAJ8Bvg~
The traits on dulfy weren’t updated for last beta were they?
((While not focusing on support as usual, the powercreep should melt anything in any dungeon before you need survivability anyways. In raids and FotM we’ll drop something for FB))
My main thought about your build is Phantasmal Haste is quite useless with Chronophantasma and constant Shattering. You’d be far better off with Shattered Strength or even MtD if you rely on allies to get maximum Might stacks.
If the goal is more DPS, I’d personally use Illusionary Reversion instead of Danger Time and ditch Dueling for Domination, taking Empowered Illusions, ??? and Mental Anguish.
(edited by Embolism.8106)
Have to go with Miku on this one mostly. Drop the staff. Also, drop the shield unless for some reason without it you can’t manage to keep up perma quickness. I believe something like this will be the new meta for mesmer: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRAsc8dnsICtqh9fCmfCUrhlVjqcDGhAo+Yj2pFd6OjqA-TxRBABXt/o8oQ9Diq+DZKxy7kAAwTAwMlgBAOAGuwFuwBrv+6rv+6N8wDP8wDPGg8A-e
Might is provided by the warrior, and fury by the ele. And herald will NOT get taken because rev isn’t going to get taken for dungeons. Ele, ele, warrior, chrono, thief/ele ( you might be able to get away with no thief depending on the dungeon and if the mesmer swaps to PU for skips then swaps back ). Obviously utilitys, traits, and weapons can get swapped around for the encounter but I think this will be the general build. And yeah staff does pretty bad DPS if you swap to it in combat tho the phantasm can be nice if you have 5> condis on the boss. And idk what chaos is for at all.
EDIT: linked the wrong build in my original post >.<
(edited by TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275)
Have to go with Miku on this one mostly. Drop the staff. Also, drop the shield unless for some reason without it you can’t manage to keep up perma quickness. I believe something like this will be the new meta for mesmer: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRAsc8dnsICtqh9fCmfCUrhlVjqcDGhAo+Yj2pFd6OjqA-TxRBABXt/o8oQ9Diq+DZKxy7kAAwTAwMlgBAOAGuwFuwBrv+6rv+6N8wDP8wDPGg8A-e
Might is provided by the warrior, and fury by the ele. And herald will NOT get taken because rev isn’t going to get taken for dungeons. Ele, ele, warrior, chrono, thief/ele ( you might be able to get away with no thief depending on the dungeon and if the mesmer swaps to PU for skips then swaps back ). Obviously utilitys, traits, and weapons can get swapped around for the encounter but I think this will be the general build. And yeah staff does pretty bad DPS if you swap to it in combat tho the phantasm can be nice if you have 5> condis on the boss. And idk what chaos is for at all.
EDIT: linked the wrong build in my original post >.<
What’s with Harmonious Mantras in a build with no Mantras?
Also, again Phant Haste is useless in a Phantasma Shattering build. And why Ineptitude?
Switch a Sword for a Sceptre, it does nearly as much autoattack DPS at close range and Confusing Images does more damage than Blurred Frenzy; plus since you’re Shattering Ether Clone is a benefit rather than a hindrance.
Signet of the Ether is not needed IMO, go with Well of Eternity.
Again I’d go Domination instead of Dueling, more DPS that way.
(edited by Embolism.8106)
Have to go with Miku on this one mostly. Drop the staff. Also, drop the shield unless for some reason without it you can’t manage to keep up perma quickness.
Shield adds 9ish seconds of quickness to every rotation, it’s quite essential.
Might is provided by the warrior, and fury by the ele. And herald will NOT get taken because rev isn’t going to get taken for dungeons.
Sorry, but you’re going to need to back this one up. In BWE2 herald was doing damage that was ele/warrior tier, higher than thief. That solidifies their place in the meta unless their damage potential gets drastically nerfed. Since herald has the side benefit of passively stacking a ton of might and permanent fury, this now makes the rest of your statement wrong. Ele doesn’t need to stack fury, and warrior doesn’t need to stack might. This doesn’t change much for the ele, but it means the warrior isn’t yoked to greatsword and PS, allowing them to use their highest dps rotation instead (axe/mace iirc).
And idk what chaos is for at all.
For the third time, chaos is for boon duration (and boon output for that matter, since chrono + rev will replace ps warr in the new meta for might). Without chaos you lose your uptime on quickness.
Indeed, Pyro’s build received an upgrade for BWE3, with iAvengers being able to actually provide some alacrity, and Well of Recall providing 2s more alacrity per cast than before, and on a lower cooldown (which more than compensates for the decrease in uptime from Well of Eternity, as the Recall gain is up-front, while the Eternity loss is in long-term uptime).
Would it even be worth getting the iAvengers out with the way the block works now?
Indeed, Pyro’s build received an upgrade for BWE3, with iAvengers being able to actually provide some alacrity, and Well of Recall providing 2s more alacrity per cast than before, and on a lower cooldown (which more than compensates for the decrease in uptime from Well of Eternity, as the Recall gain is up-front, while the Eternity loss is in long-term uptime).
Would it even be worth getting the iAvengers out with the way the block works now?
Imo, depends on how impactful slow ends up being vs the breakbar. In current pve content where slow works normally on bosses, I’d definitely say yes.
Depends on how long the block duration is.
Have to go with Miku on this one mostly. Drop the staff. Also, drop the shield unless for some reason without it you can’t manage to keep up perma quickness. I believe something like this will be the new meta pve: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRAsc8dnsICtqh9fCmfCUrhlVjqcDGhAo+Yj2pFd6OjqA-TxRBABXt/o8oQ9Diq+DZKxy7kAAwTAwMlgBAOAGuwFuwBrv+6rv+6N8wDP8wDPGg8A-e
Lol.
1. That build provides 18s of alacrity, which isn’t enough for any fight that might go longer than 15s to be balanced out by the dps you’re gaining. And any fight (HoT raids?) that runs even longer or requires the team to be moving about will be additionally hampered.
2. The number 1 lament of mesmers in pve is how hard it is to get dps out of phantasms (due to cleave and setup time), but here you are insisting that said low and unreliable dps is superior to eking out greater performance from your allies. I don’t get it.
3. Without traiting focus for reflects, why do you care about focus?
Might is provided by the warrior, and fury by the ele.
See the above points already made by Pyro (before you even responded) about the dps gains for not requiring the warrior to foot the might bill. You haven’t given any reasoning to dispute the point, so why should we accept your assertion?
And herald will NOT get taken because rev isn’t going to get taken for dungeons.
Care to substantiate that claim? There have been reports that revenant dps is very competitive (BWE3 testing required), and the synergy between revenant and chronomancer in allowing warriors to go without PS (warriors themselves still being taken for banners), there is a lot of reason to suspect Revenant will have a place alongside chrono.
Ele, ele, warrior, chrono, thief/ele ( you might be able to get away with no thief depending on the dungeon and if the mesmer swaps to PU for skips then swaps back ). Obviously utilitys, traits, and weapons can get swapped around for the encounter but I think this will be the general build.
I think you’re right that the thief will not be needed for most dungeons. Thief stealth escorts already swap a bunch of traits when they do skips, it’s hardly going to be remarkable for mesmers to do the same. And with CS+Alacrity, Chronos will be even better at skips than they are now. Thieves are frankly out, unless something changes.
And idk what chaos is for at all.
You missed the part where he said it was for 15% boon duration, which is a key element of the build’s quickness sources.
Obviously we disagree on the might, as that’s the other part that brings in Chaos (12+ stacks of might from BD), and some other minor boons from BD (fury, regen, vigor).
I would concede that for record speed runs, any group will work to account for specific kill times, so the exact build of the chronomancer will be adjusted as needed to account for variations. 15s boss fights, for example, will be met with a shift to more dps as desired. Easy changes will be used liberally.
(edited by AlphatheWhite.9351)
It’s a pretty questionable build tbh, with three traits (HM, Ineptitude, Haste) that shouldn’t be there. And doubling up on MH Sword is so pre-Chrono.
Indeed, Pyro’s build received an upgrade for BWE3, with iAvengers being able to actually provide some alacrity, and Well of Recall providing 2s more alacrity per cast than before, and on a lower cooldown (which more than compensates for the decrease in uptime from Well of Eternity, as the Recall gain is up-front, while the Eternity loss is in long-term uptime).
Would it even be worth getting the iAvengers out with the way the block works now?
Imo, depends on how impactful slow ends up being vs the breakbar. In current pve content where slow works normally on bosses, I’d definitely say yes.
When I was talking with Pyro a week or so (?) ago, it occurred to me that with permanent alacrity, Persistence of Memory, Chronophantasma and constant shatters, you can be getting iCap’s attack a lot, even without phantasms surviving long.
Breakbar as it stands makes the slow portion of this pretty weak, but the alacrity is decent now, basically acting like a well but with an instant proc, and all you need is that initial attack. It’s possible that you could get 100% alacrity uptime for the team with a smart combination of wells and iCaps. The main issues now are extremely long cast time on those phantasms, though permanent quickness will help with that, the initial survivability of the iCap, and making sure to wait the full 1.5s after shattering an iCap before you shatter again.
Have to go with Miku on this one mostly. Drop the staff. Also, drop the shield unless for some reason without it you can’t manage to keep up perma quickness. I believe something like this will be the new meta for mesmer: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRAsc8dnsICtqh9fCmfCUrhlVjqcDGhAo+Yj2pFd6OjqA-TxRBABXt/o8oQ9Diq+DZKxy7kAAwTAwMlgBAOAGuwFuwBrv+6rv+6N8wDP8wDPGg8A-e
Might is provided by the warrior, and fury by the ele. And herald will NOT get taken because rev isn’t going to get taken for dungeons. Ele, ele, warrior, chrono, thief/ele ( you might be able to get away with no thief depending on the dungeon and if the mesmer swaps to PU for skips then swaps back ). Obviously utilitys, traits, and weapons can get swapped around for the encounter but I think this will be the general build. And yeah staff does pretty bad DPS if you swap to it in combat tho the phantasm can be nice if you have 5> condis on the boss. And idk what chaos is for at all.
EDIT: linked the wrong build in my original post >.<
What’s with Harmonious Mantras in a build with no Mantras?
Also, again Phant Haste is useless in a Phantasma Shattering build. And why Ineptitude?
Switch a Sword for a Sceptre, it does nearly as much autoattack DPS at close range and Confusing Images does more damage than Blurred Frenzy; plus since you’re Shattering Ether Clone is a benefit rather than a hindrance.
Signet of the Ether is not needed IMO, go with Well of Eternity.
Again I’d go Domination instead of Dueling, more DPS that way.
Harmonious mantras is for when you take condi removal mantra/stability mantra/healing mantra. It’s not like there is anything better to take lol. And phantasmal haste reduces the cd on your phantasms so you can re-summon them faster.
“Switch a Sword for a Sceptre, it does nearly as much autoattack DPS at close range and Confusing Images does more damage than Blurred Frenzy; plus since you’re Shattering Ether Clone is a benefit rather than a hindrance.”
Just wha, just WHA. Are you for real?? Scepter in the only weapon I don’t use in dungeons. All the other ones I use frequently but scepter is just useless. Remember, this is for pve dungeons not pvp. This is the first time I’v had someone tell me scepter was even close to useful in dungeons. As for the signet, it can be good for keeping up more reflects and more phantasms in general but the mantra is also viable. Now that I remember it the healing well is getting condi removal so it can be used if you need condi removal. Otherwise not much of a reason to take it. As for domination being more DPS, idk about that. You lose perma fury for your phantasms plus Fencer’s Finesse compared to 0.5 more damage per vuln stack and 15% damage to your phantasms. I personally think dueling is better but I don’t know the math between them so I ain’t going to say one is definitely better than the other.
@Fay
Shield is only essential if you don’t already have enough quickness. Which depends on how long the fights last and the dungeon. I don’t think you can say shield is definitely needed. Then again I don’t think its fair for me to say its definitely not going to be used. It really all depends, so it will probably be used sometimes and sometimes not. And you make it seam like warrior does uber damage like ele lvl? I may be wrong but I don’t think its that close at all. But yes, revenant does do good damage. But just because there damage is good does NOT solidifiy there damage. Just take chrono for example. Crap damage? Check. Still gonna get taken probs? Check. Personal damage isn’t the be all end all. And having looked at revenant more, he can stack some might and fury. But how long does it take for you to get that 25 stacks, eh? Thus revenant will NOT be taken.
“Without chaos you lose your uptime on quickness.”
Again, all depends on how long the boss lives and the dungeon. But I can asure you that teeny tiny extra duration will NOT be worth it.
Obviously we disagree on the might, as that’s the other part that brings in Chaos (12+ stacks of might from BD), and some other minor boons from BD (fury, regen, vigor).
I’m not really in the debate, but how does this provide 12+ might? As far as I understand, each F1 shatter is 3 might regardless of the number of shattered illusions, no?
You misunderstand how Phantasmal Haste works. It reduces their attack CD, not their conjure CD.
Don’t knock on Sceptre if you never tried it. It’s actually a good Power weapon, the Ether Bolt chain doesn’t do much less damage than Mind Slash and Confusing Images does a lot more damage than Blurred Frenzy. Ether Clone can be pretty useful in a Shatter build with no DE, and since this is a Shatter build you won’t have problems with Clones overwriting Phantasms.
Domination also gives you up to +30% damage on your Shatters, and remember this is a Shatter spamming build. You also can help stack Vuln with Diversion.
Obviously we disagree on the might, as that’s the other part that brings in Chaos (12+ stacks of might from BD), and some other minor boons from BD (fury, regen, vigor).
I’m not really in the debate, but how does this provide 12+ might? As far as I understand, each F1 shatter is 3 might regardless of the number of shattered illusions, no?
Shattered Strength also provides Might.
Obviously we disagree on the might, as that’s the other part that brings in Chaos (12+ stacks of might from BD), and some other minor boons from BD (fury, regen, vigor).
I’m not really in the debate, but how does this provide 12+ might? As far as I understand, each F1 shatter is 3 might regardless of the number of shattered illusions, no?
3 might for 15sec + boon duration + alacrity bringing the cd of F1 down.
Obviously we disagree on the might, as that’s the other part that brings in Chaos (12+ stacks of might from BD), and some other minor boons from BD (fury, regen, vigor).
I’m not really in the debate, but how does this provide 12+ might? As far as I understand, each F1 shatter is 3 might regardless of the number of shattered illusions, no?
With alacrity and Illusions, you shatter f1 a lot, including twice in the first 3-5 seconds.
Additionally, the might from BD has a relatively long base duration (15s) which is enhanced further by any Boon duration (e.g. 15% from Chaotic Persistence, 50% from herald). It adds up. I’ll note though that the ramp-up time on that is my biggest personal caveat with the Chrono+Rev might approach, as it takes a couple rounds of MW to hit 12 stacks (you’ll get 6 from the initial burst, but then you’ve got another 6-7s before you get more).
This is why I’ve been interested in finding a compromise between boonshare and chrono support.
(edited by AlphatheWhite.9351)
Obviously we disagree on the might, as that’s the other part that brings in Chaos (12+ stacks of might from BD), and some other minor boons from BD (fury, regen, vigor).
I’m not really in the debate, but how does this provide 12+ might? As far as I understand, each F1 shatter is 3 might regardless of the number of shattered illusions, no?
When mind wrack is on a 6ish second cooldown, you end up with 12 might after about 10 seconds of rotation when you do it properly.
@FrenchFry: How long does it take to reach 25 stacks? You’ve really never played with a herald have you. The herald gives permanent fury, swiftness, and about 15 might just by existing. If they don’t pop their F2 until 10 seconds into the fight, the Mesmer could easily make that 15 jump to 25 in the first 8 seconds of fighting.
I’m not really in the debate, but how does this provide 12+ might? As far as I understand, each F1 shatter is 3 might regardless of the number of shattered illusions, no?
With alacrity and Illusions, you shatter f1 a lot, including twice in the first 3-5 seconds.
Additionally, the might from BD has a relatively long base duration (15s) which is enhanced further by any Boon duration (e.g. 15% from Chaotic Persistence, 50% from herald). It adds up. I’ll note though that the ramp-up time on that is my biggest personal caveat with the Chrono+Rev might approach, as it takes a couple rounds of MW to hit 12 stacks (you’ll get 6 from the initial burst, but then you’ve got another 6-7s before you get more).
As far as I understand, the revenant can provide steadily up to 10 stacks including outside of combat. Then F1 provides 3. If shattered strength, we also get 4 from the initial F5 + 4 from the next F during the window and one per following F if no illusion, that’s 3 more. In total that would be 14 might during the F5 window. Added to revenant that’s 24.
Am I missing something?
Have to go with Miku on this one mostly. Drop the staff. Also, drop the shield unless for some reason without it you can’t manage to keep up perma quickness. I believe something like this will be the new meta pve: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRAsc8dnsICtqh9fCmfCUrhlVjqcDGhAo+Yj2pFd6OjqA-TxRBABXt/o8oQ9Diq+DZKxy7kAAwTAwMlgBAOAGuwFuwBrv+6rv+6N8wDP8wDPGg8A-e
Lol.
1. That build provides 18s of alacrity, which isn’t enough for any fight that might go longer than 15s to be balanced out by the dps you’re gaining. And any fight (HoT raids?) that runs even longer or requires the team to be moving about will be additionally hampered.
2. The number 1 lament of mesmers in pve is how hard it is to get dps out of phantasms (due to cleave and setup time), but here you are insisting that said low and unreliable dps is superior to eking out greater performance from your allies. I don’t get it.
3. Without traiting focus for reflects, why do you care about focus?Might is provided by the warrior, and fury by the ele.
See the above points already made by Pyro (before you even responded) about the dps gains for not requiring the warrior to foot the might bill. You haven’t given any reasoning to dispute the point, so why should we accept your assertion?
And herald will NOT get taken because rev isn’t going to get taken for dungeons.
Care to substantiate that claim? There have been reports that revenant dps is very competitive (BWE3 testing required), and the synergy between revenant and chronomancer in allowing warriors to go without PS (warriors themselves still being taken for banners), there is a lot of reason to suspect Revenant will have a place alongside chrono.
Ele, ele, warrior, chrono, thief/ele ( you might be able to get away with no thief depending on the dungeon and if the mesmer swaps to PU for skips then swaps back ). Obviously utilitys, traits, and weapons can get swapped around for the encounter but I think this will be the general build.
I think you’re right that the thief will not be needed for most dungeons. Thief stealth escorts already swap a bunch of traits when they do skips, it’s hardly going to be remarkable for mesmers to do the same. And with CS+Alacrity, Chronos will be even better at skips than they are now. Thieves are frankly out, unless something changes.
And idk what chaos is for at all.
You missed the part where he said it was for 15% boon duration, which is a key element of the build’s quickness sources.
Obviously we disagree on the might, as that’s the other part that brings in Chaos (12+ stacks of might from BD), and some other minor boons from BD (fury, regen, vigor).
I would concede that for record speed runs, any group will work to account for specific kill times, so the exact build of the chronomancer will be adjusted as needed to account for variations. 15s boss fights, for example, will be met with a shift to more dps as desired. Easy changes will be used liberally.
“Lol.
1. That build provides 18s of alacrity, which isn’t enough for any fight that might go longer than 15s to be balanced out by the dps you’re gaining. And any fight (HoT raids?) that runs even longer or requires the team to be moving about will be additionally hampered.”
Maybe I’m missing something buttttttttt, how does the Ops build get that much extra alacrity? The heal well does apply alacrity plus condi removal so yeah I’m thinking that will definetely be better than I originally thought. If it is better than the signet then you can simply swap that into my build. Feedback will still be taken over a 4th well if reflects are needed. Sooooooooooo, there actually isn’t a difference in alacrity between our builds at all? Not to mention 18 seconds should be plenty. And you talk about raids, and yet the post says: [PvE] The New Chronomancer DUNGEON Rotation?
“2. The number 1 lament of mesmers in pve is how hard it is to get dps out of phantasms (due to cleave and setup time), but here you are insisting that said low and unreliable dps is superior to eking out greater performance from your allies. I don’t get it.”
Greater performance? How so? His extra teeny tiny boon duration? The might that the warrior will be providing? The fury the eles will be providing? And focus still does projectile destruction even without the trait. Heck, my build does greater team support than his AND better DPS. Not his does greater performance.
“See the above points already made by Pyro (before you even responded) about the dps gains for not requiring the warrior to foot the might bill. You haven’t given any reasoning to dispute the point, so why should we accept your assertion?”
But yes, revenant does do good damage. But just because there damage is good does NOT solidifiy there damage. Just take chrono for example. Crap damage? Check. Still gonna get taken probs? Check. Personal damage isn’t the be all end all. And having looked at revenant more, he can stack some might and fury. But how long does it take for you to get that 25 stacks, eh? Thus revenant will NOT be taken.
“I think you’re right that the thief will not be needed for most dungeons. Thief stealth escorts already swap a bunch of traits when they do skips, it’s hardly going to be remarkable for mesmers to do the same.”
Have you even ever done a dungeon with a decent thief/played a thief in a dungeon before? You don’t have to swap traits at all! Seriously, first someone claims scepter is better than sword in dungeons, then someone makes a statement that shows he/she understands absolutely 0% of a thief. Plz go read up about dungeons and meta builds before posting in a discussion about the new potential meta.
“You missed the part where he said it was for 15% boon duration, which is a key element of the build’s quickness sources.
Obviously we disagree on the might, as that’s the other part that brings in Chaos (12+ stacks of might from BD), and some other minor boons from BD (fury, regen, vigor).
I would concede that for record speed runs, any group will work to account for specific kill times, so the exact build of the chronomancer will be adjusted as needed to account for variations. 15s boss fights, for example, will be met with a shift to more dps as desired. Easy changes will be used liberally."
15% boon duration, OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Amazing. In fact lets all go givers gear for the extra boon duration too!
Shattered Strength provides Might for every Shatter, so there’s that.
That said I don’t think the original build uses Illusions.
Seriously, first someone claims scepter is better than sword in dungeons
Way to strawman. I said you’re better off using two different MHs with their own skills and CDs than doubling up on Sword. Confusing Images is basically a second Blurred Frenzy that does more damage and you won’t lose much DPS with Ether Bolt provided you’re in melee range, which you would with Sword anyway.
The main reason Sceptre wasn’t used is because Ether Clone replaces Phantasms, that’s not an issue with Chronomancer. You should know why the meta is how it is instead of just parroting what everyone else says.
(edited by Embolism.8106)
Seriously, first someone claims scepter is better than sword in dungeons
Way to strawman. I said you’re better off using two different MHs with their own skills and CDs than doubling up on Sword. Confusing Images is basically a second Blurred Frenzy that does more damage and you won’t lose much DPS with Ether Bolt provided you’re in melee range, which you would with Sword anyway.
The scepter reacts much better to alacrity than the sword since the sword damage comes from AA. I don’t know if this is enough, but it is something!
And Sceptre’s AA is not bad either in melee where you don’t get the horrible “projectile in flight” aftercast. The damage is very comparable to Mind Slash, main drawback being it doesn’t cleave: but that hardly matters for what we’re talking about.
So let’s clear some stuff up shall we?
FrenchFry, would appreciate it if you stopped completely ignoring everything that’s been said and regurgitating your already misproven talking points…
Rev maintains permanently 10 might, fury, and swiftness. If they want to drop the swiftness (since there’s plenty of that around) they can maintain more permafury and 15 might instead.
With a rev nearby, the 15s base duration of might from MW goes up to ~22 seconds, plus a bit more from other stuff and we can call it 25 flat. This means that out of combat, the mes can hit MW off cooldown and maintain 6-9 stacks of might, pushing the out of combat permanent upkeep to 21-24.
The instant you engage the fight, the rev pops their F2 for more might, swiftness, fury, regen, and protection to instant cap the party off at 25 stacks, after which the stacks are maintained by the mes rotation and the lower level rev upkeep.
In conclusion
Everything you’re basing your arguments on is wrong, which makes all of your arguments wrong. I don’t really expect you to accept this, but I like to be clear for everyone else.
@Embolism: shattered strength is self only, but the build does use illusions, yes.
@Embolism: shattered strength is self only, but the build does use illusions, yes.
Ah, for some reason I assumed it uses Inspiration to share boons. I forgot BD’s non-Stability boons are shared without needing SoI.
You misunderstand how Phantasmal Haste works. It reduces their attack CD, not their conjure CD.
Don’t knock on Sceptre if you never tried it. It’s actually a good Power weapon, the Ether Bolt chain doesn’t do much less damage than Mind Slash and Confusing Images does a lot more damage than Blurred Frenzy. Ether Clone can be pretty useful in a Shatter build with no DE, and since this is a Shatter build you won’t have problems with Clones overwriting Phantasms.
Domination also gives you up to +30% damage on your Shatters, and remember this is a Shatter spamming build. You also can help stack Vuln with Diversion.
kitten , got confused with the other trait. But its not like the other trait options are any better.
“Don’t knock on Sceptre if you never tried it. It’s actually a good Power weapon, the Ether Bolt chain doesn’t do much less damage than Mind Slash and Confusing Images does a lot more damage than Blurred Frenzy. Ether Clone can be pretty useful in a Shatter build with no DE, and since this is a Shatter build you won’t have problems with Clones overwriting Phantasms.”
See, i don’t mind answering questions that ask why scepter isn’t good, but I hate it when people walk into a discussion about future meta builds and state that scepter is better than sword. I would advise reading the guide by one of the best ( if not the best ) mesmer pve players that I’ll link at the bottom of my post. It will tell you why scepter isn’t good.
“Domination also gives you up to +30% damage on your Shatters, and remember this is a Shatter spamming build. You also can help stack Vuln with Diversion.”
True, I didn’t think about the 30% damage on shatter, that is nice. And the vuln from diversion can be nice but you have to be careful because you don’t want to interrupt the boss. Like i said I don’t know the actually math behind it so we will just have to wait and see what the people who do do the math say.
EDIT: Forgot the link lol http://dulfy.net/2014/07/21/gw2-mesmer-pve-class-guide-by-sanderinoa/#Scepter
See, i don’t mind answering questions that ask why scepter isn’t good, but I hate it when people walk into a discussion about future meta builds and state that scepter is better than sword. I would advise reading the guide by one of the best ( if not the best ) mesmer pve players that I’ll link at the bottom of my post. It will tell you why scepter isn’t good.
Did you even read the guide you linked? It clearly states that the main reason is because Ether Clone replaces Phantasms. Again:
The main reason Sceptre wasn’t used is because Ether Clone replaces Phantasms, that’s not an issue with Chronomancer. You should know why the meta is how it is instead of just parroting what everyone else says.
Seriously, first someone claims scepter is better than sword in dungeons
Way to strawman. I said you’re better off using two different MHs with their own skills and CDs than doubling up on Sword. Confusing Images is basically a second Blurred Frenzy that does more damage and you won’t lose much DPS with Ether Bolt provided you’re in melee range, which you would with Sword anyway.
The main reason Sceptre wasn’t used is because Ether Clone replaces Phantasms, that’s not an issue with Chronomancer. You should know why the meta is how it is instead of just parroting what everyone else says.
I understand that PART of the reason scepter wasn’t taken was because of the clone summon. However, that is not the whole reason why it was not taken. Literately, I don’t mind discussing things with people, but when people say stuff of the sort like this, it makes me think: why do I even bother?
I understand that PART of the reason scepter wasn’t taken was because of the clone summon. However, that is not the whole reason why it was not taken. Literately, I don’t mind discussing things with people, but when people say stuff of the sort like this, it makes me think: why do I even bother?
The other reason people like to repeat, Ether Bolt’s slow attack rate, is actually an anomaly that disappears when you use it in melee range. The issue is Ether Bolt does not progress to the next skill in the chain until the previous projectile has hit, so the further away you are the slower it is. At melee range however it’s as fast as Mind Slash.
Try it in HotM. The damage and attack rate are comparable, and Ether Bolt also adds a tiny amount of Torment damage so it’s slightly more comparable than it seems.
(Do your own testing folks, don’t be a parrot.)
See, i don’t mind answering questions that ask why scepter isn’t good, but I hate it when people walk into a discussion about future meta builds and state that scepter is better than sword. I would advise reading the guide by one of the best ( if not the best ) mesmer pve players that I’ll link at the bottom of my post. It will tell you why scepter isn’t good.
Did you even read the guide you linked? It clearly states that the main reason is because Ether Clone replaces Phantasms. Again:
The main reason Sceptre wasn’t used is because Ether Clone replaces Phantasms, that’s not an issue with Chronomancer. You should know why the meta is how it is instead of just parroting what everyone else says.
Ok, let’s just post what he says clearly so no one gets confused.
“In terms of viability in PvE, the scepter is slightly lacking, but can be used in open world areas by people who enjoy a more condition focused approach. It will be mentioned later that the AA has a phantasm restriction, COMBINING THIS WITH THE WEAPON’S OVERALL SLOW ATTACK RATE AND CONDITION DAMAGE FOCUS , make for a suboptimal weapon choice in min- maxing dungeon party situations.”
I love sandy, but he’s not fully informed about scepter. Due to how the auto functions, it performs faster the closer you are to the target. At melee range, it becomes very similar to the attack speed of the sword. He also doesn’t seem to realize that confusing images actually does more damage than blurred frenzy, in a quicker package now that it’s been buffed.
I still wouldn’t normally recommend using scepter for various reasons, but the particular case discussed here makes a lot of sense for it.
In my build, I use mainhand sword because I need the instant clone from iLeap to start the rotation, and I want the defense of blurred frenzy to be available.
I understand that PART of the reason scepter wasn’t taken was because of the clone summon. However, that is not the whole reason why it was not taken. Literately, I don’t mind discussing things with people, but when people say stuff of the sort like this, it makes me think: why do I even bother?
The other reason people like to repeat, Ether Bolt’s slow attack rate, is actually an anomaly that disappears when you use it in melee range. The issue is Ether Bolt does not progress to the next skill in the chain until the previous projectile has hit, so the further away you are the slower it is. At melee range however it’s as fast as Mind Slash.
I don’t think the people that tested out scepter used it at max range……… seeing as dungeons are done in melee……………
I love sandy, but he’s not fully informed about scepter. Due to how the auto functions, it performs faster the closer you are to the target. At melee range, it becomes very similar to the attack speed of the sword. He also doesn’t seem to realize that confusing images actually does more damage than blurred frenzy, in a quicker package now that it’s been buffed.
I still wouldn’t normally recommend using scepter for various reasons, but the particular case discussed here makes a lot of sense for it.
In my build, I use mainhand sword because I need the instant clone from iLeap to start the rotation, and I want the defense of blurred frenzy to be available.
Oh no, I’m not saying I’d take Sceptre over MH Sword, but if you’re looking to have two MHs then with Chrono there’s no sense in doubling up on Sword still is what I’m getting at.
And yeah, not many people realise that Confusing Images does a LOT of direct damage on top of Confusion. Taken together it’s quite a bit stronger than Blurred Frenzy damage-wise.
(edited by Embolism.8106)
I love sandy, but he’s not fully informed about scepter. Due to how the auto functions, it performs faster the closer you are to the target. At melee range, it becomes very similar to the attack speed of the sword. He also doesn’t seem to realize that confusing images actually does more damage than blurred frenzy, in a quicker package now that it’s been buffed.
I still wouldn’t normally recommend using scepter for various reasons, but the particular case discussed here makes a lot of sense for it.
In my build, I use mainhand sword because I need the instant clone from iLeap to start the rotation, and I want the defense of blurred frenzy to be available.
Oh no, I’m not saying I’d take MH Sword over Sceptre, but if you’re looking to have two MHs then with Chrono there’s no sense in doubling up on Sword still is what I’m getting at.
There’s no sense to take one sword and one scepter. That being said I have been overly harsh. When someone says something that seams pretty trollish I tend to try to spur them on to get a better laugh but that’s probably not one of my greatest quality’s….
I love sandy, but he’s not fully informed about scepter. Due to how the auto functions, it performs faster the closer you are to the target. At melee range, it becomes very similar to the attack speed of the sword. He also doesn’t seem to realize that confusing images actually does more damage than blurred frenzy, in a quicker package now that it’s been buffed.
I still wouldn’t normally recommend using scepter for various reasons, but the particular case discussed here makes a lot of sense for it.
In my build, I use mainhand sword because I need the instant clone from iLeap to start the rotation, and I want the defense of blurred frenzy to be available.
Oh no, I’m not saying I’d take MH Sword over Sceptre, but if you’re looking to have two MHs then with Chrono there’s no sense in doubling up on Sword still is what I’m getting at.
There’s no sense to take one sword and one scepter. That being said I have been overly harsh. When someone says something that seams pretty trollish I tend to try to spur them on to get a better laugh but that’s probably not one of my greatest quality’s….
Just go test it in HotM. If you’ve never used it before, and from how you keep repeating yourself it’s obvious you haven’t; you can’t really make a judgement.
Actually, I’m curious now. With permanent quickness and alacrity, melee range scepter very well might be higher dps than sword. Since sword doesn’t benefit at all from alacrity (blurred frenzy is like. .2% dps increase over the auto if I remember my frifox stats properly) scepter gains significant headway in the form of confusing images.
summons frifox for a dps test in BWE3
Actually, I’m curious now. With permanent quickness and alacrity, melee range scepter very well might be higher dps than sword. Since sword doesn’t benefit at all from alacrity (blurred frenzy is like. .2% dps increase over the auto if I remember my frifox stats properly) scepter gains significant headway in the form of confusing images.
summons frifox for a dps test in BWE3
Ether Clone might eek out a bit of extra damage (and Alacrity) while rolling through your Shatters too.
On the other hand, no on-demand Clone.
(Rob plz give Clone on Counterspell/Counterblade)
I love sandy, but he’s not fully informed about scepter. Due to how the auto functions, it performs faster the closer you are to the target. At melee range, it becomes very similar to the attack speed of the sword. He also doesn’t seem to realize that confusing images actually does more damage than blurred frenzy, in a quicker package now that it’s been buffed.
I still wouldn’t normally recommend using scepter for various reasons, but the particular case discussed here makes a lot of sense for it.
In my build, I use mainhand sword because I need the instant clone from iLeap to start the rotation, and I want the defense of blurred frenzy to be available.
Oh no, I’m not saying I’d take MH Sword over Sceptre, but if you’re looking to have two MHs then with Chrono there’s no sense in doubling up on Sword still is what I’m getting at.
There’s no sense to take one sword and one scepter. That being said I have been overly harsh. When someone says something that seams pretty trollish I tend to try to spur them on to get a better laugh but that’s probably not one of my greatest quality’s….
Just go test it in HotM. If you’ve never used it before, and from how you keep repeating yourself it’s obvious you haven’t; you can’t really make a judgement.
I also haven’t used staff guard. Using your theory I have to test that out before I make a judgement on how good that is?
@Fay
Yeah I would like to see some DPS tests. That’s really the only way to settle things. With quickness and alacrity and sandy testing scepter at max range it might be better. But I really don’t think it was tested at range. Only one way to tell tho.
(edited by TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275)
Actually, I’m curious now. With permanent quickness and alacrity, melee range scepter very well might be higher dps than sword. Since sword doesn’t benefit at all from alacrity (blurred frenzy is like. .2% dps increase over the auto if I remember my frifox stats properly) scepter gains significant headway in the form of confusing images.
summons frifox for a dps test in BWE3
Whoa….you mean I might have a use for meteorlogicus in dungeons outside of my guardian!?
On my small sheet (not counting 25 vuln), I get 3.5k DPS for scepter AA, 5.2k DPS for sword AA (using malicious sorcery)
confusing image is about 16.7k damage + 3k tick confusion and 6-7k confusion if enemy attacks once per second (optimistic).
with this very very gross estimate, scepter reaches approximately 5k DPS. There is a fat chance that alacrity will make this better than sword.
Also this was done with dom+dueling+illusion. Since we remove most of the damage multipliers, the condi of scepter will be relatively stronger.
(edited by Silverkey.2078)
Actually, I’m curious now. With permanent quickness and alacrity, melee range scepter very well might be higher dps than sword. Since sword doesn’t benefit at all from alacrity (blurred frenzy is like. .2% dps increase over the auto if I remember my frifox stats properly) scepter gains significant headway in the form of confusing images.
summons frifox for a dps test in BWE3
Whoa….you mean I might have a use for meteorlogicus in dungeons outside of my guardian!?
Meteorlogicus is my favourite Legendary. Makes me sad there’s little justification to using it in PvE as a Mesmer.
One of the reasons I’m looking forward to Chronomancy.
Melee range scepter gets me 10 autoattack rotations in 31 seconds.
Sword gets me 10 autoattack rotations in 24 seconds.
So this means we’ve got .32 rotations/second of scepter and .42 rotations/second of sword.
A full rotation of scepter has a damage coefficient of 1.75
A full rotation of sword has a damage coefficient of 2.3 without boons and 2.1 with boons.
This means that scepter has a total damage rate of .56 coeff/second, while sword has .966 without boons and .882 with boons.
However, now we can work in confusing images. Confusing images has a coefficient of 2.5 over a duration of 2s, for a total coeff/second of 1.25. This does, however, take up the space of autoattacking, leaving us with a bonus coeff/sec during confusing images of .69.
With permanent alacrity, confusing images occurs for 2 seconds every 9.92 seconds. This means that the total coeff over 9.92 seconds for scepter will be 1.25*2+.56*7.92 = 6.9352.
Accordingly, the total coeff over 9.92 seconds for sword will be simply .966*9.92 = 9.582 without boons or 8.74 with boons.
However, this neglects the effect of malicious sorcery! Lets do that now.
Malicious sorcery is a 15% as increase, which increases the scepter coeff/sec from .56 to .644.
It also is a 20% cdr for confusing images, bringing the base cooldown to 9.6, or the alacritied cooldown to 6.336. With MS, the coeff/sec of confusing images now rises from 1.25 to 1.4375, and you’re able to use that for 1.7 seconds every 8.036 seconds.
So with all that, the final coeff over 8.036 seconds for scepter becomes 1.4375*1.7+6.336*.644 = 6.524.
The sword coeff over 8.036 seconds becomes 8.003 without boons, or 7.08 with boons.
So
Assuming all that math is correct, permanent alacrity on scepter with malicious sorcery allows it to get pretty close to sword autos on a target that has boons, while a bit farther from a target without boons. Sword is still definitively better though, assuming you’re able to maintain 100% uptime on actually autoattacking…which is actually a really awful assumption.
Things start to get a lot more complex once you take into account things like dodging, summoning phantasms, or bosses that move around. The less time spent actually autoattacking, the more scepter will gain on sword, since scepter damage is biased towards a skill with a cooldown, and sword is reliant on actual autoattacking. I’m not quite bold enough try and simulate it taking into account phantasm summons and such (I’ll let frifox do that if he wants to), but suffice to say that once all is said and done, sword and scepter are going to be very similar in terms of damage output.
Math says at full alacrity and quickness with Malicious Scepter,
Sword AA + Blurred Frenzy should have around 22%-37% more dps (about 1000 dps) than Scepter AA + Confusing Images before conditions.
Even in the best case scenario for scepter (moving target that attacks once a second), and the worst case for sword (target has constantly refreshing boons), with 25 stacks of might (boosting the condi damage from scepter considerably), the sword still comes on top by around 200 dps.
Sorry guys, unless the ether clones are adding considerable dps from shatters (not likely, given shatters are already terrible dps), scepter won’t be replacing sword as king of mesmer melee dps.
That doesn’t resolve the question of having two mainhand weapons, though. Confusing Images singly blows away the dps of any of the other three elements, so mixing CI into a mainly-sword rotation could still be worthwhile, all things considered.
edit: ninjaed by Pyro!
I should note that for both my math and Pyro’s, any departure from auto-attacking will give ground to the scepter.
Summoning phantasms, casting wells, casting mantras, blocking, etc. etc. will raise Scepter’s level, because CI has better dps than BF, while sword AA beats scepter AA. So if you don’t AA much, scepter wins.
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