Guild Wars 2

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Phil.8901:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Phil.8901:

This trait is absolutely ridiculous.

It’s incredible how Anet succeeded to buff one trait already op

The result of this it’s not only Phantasmal condi mesmer are super brainless but now shatter power version can use this trait and stay 1 year in stealth, ready to burst people for 15k

Worst trait ever.

Remove it from the planet pls, better game for everyone.

Go ahead and build yourself a “phantasmal condi mesmer,” take it into pvp and tell me how well you do.
I’ll wait.

No need

I already taken the marauder version s/t + gs so i can stay 1 year in stealth and onesthot people in easy way.

If i fail? Np I’ve 2 invulnerability, interrupt, blind, dodge and other stealth

And If the fight is going bad?

Dude, I’ve portal,go away and retry, easy

What a skill.

You made a claim that phantasmal condi mesmer builds are “super brainless” in the context of OP builds.

I called you on it.

You pretended that doesn’t matter.

So why bring up the condi mesmer if there’s “no need” to even think about it?

Answer: because you don’t have much credibility, as it seems you don’t even care enough to do your homework. My recommendation to anyone who reads what you have to say is to “be skeptical, this poster has a history of making stupid claims without backing them up.”

Ok remove op from Phantasmal condi version, and take it for power version if you want.

But phantasmal condi PU mesmers are always super brainless.

Everything is fine with PU

http://www.twitch.tv/thelordhelseth/v/8092661

“it’s soon over”

Phil.8901:

But phantasmal condi PU mesmers are always super brainless

Given we’ve already established you’ve never played one, how would you know?

@apharma
I replied to your comment already and even gave an indication of when I’d be looking to get off the PU crutch. You also suggested it’d be better to try it out after the golem week was over. You do know what day it is today, right?

I’m also not sure how to factor in the increased dps I’ll be facing post patch. Open to ideas if you have them. Of course, I could forgo the whole experiment by pointing out that none of you stalwart defenders of PU have actually admitted to using it… In fact, I think you’ve all said that you don’t. Ptetty easy to conclude from that alone that the buff wasn’t particularly needed. Same with the general lack of demand for a stealth boost to PU pre-patch. I could also just ask all the people I know who main members whether they felt they were just free bags in Wvw. I’m fairly confident they’ll laugh at the idea.

I’m also not auto dismissing PvP elements. More than one of you guys made the case that the PU stealth buff provides little benefit there, yourself included iirc. If you want to walk back on that point, go ahead. But you’re the one taking PvP out of consideration by saying PU doesn’t matter there, not me.

@Necrotize
I was responding to Denis’ example. If you don’t think his example had merit because you’ve somehow divined the “truth” about what’s important in this game and what isn’t, take it up with him. At least try to keep up or just ignore the thread. It’s not hard, you know.

Phil.8901:

Everything is fine with PU

http://www.twitch.tv/thelordhelseth/v/8092661

“it’s soon over”

Wait, you took a stream from the captain of one of the 2 finalist teams for the PvP World Tournament as your evidence that PU is a problem? You took the stream of one of the best PvP mesmers in the world as your evidence that run of the mill PU is broken?

Are you high?

I’ve played with PU(it’s not my cup of tea since I prefer support anyway) and honestly found it fine for what it accomplishes. If I’m just jumping in solo Q and I know I’ll get no cooperation out of my teammates, PU is awesome. Helps me recover from fights that quickly become outnumbered massacres which happen quite often if one team is more organized than the other. The increased duration provides a clear benefit in engaging and disengaging, but not an obscene one. Basically I don’t have to waste Blink now if I want to get the jump on someone or get away. There wasn’t a demand for increased stealth duration pre-patch because no one outside of roamers really used it anyway. There were just bigger and better things to run and seeing as mesmer only had 1 real “meta” build that pretty much was run by any competitive mesmer, PU never fit into that.

You keep assuming that you’re right and that you don’t need to provide any real evidence to support your claims. “Pretty easy to conclude from that alone that the buff wasn’t particularly needed”. You get this from 4-5 people arguing with you on the forums? That’s some solid evidence there. I’m sure the fact that the only builds that included PU listed on meta-battle for months were only under the roaming category means PU was totally great in PvE and PvP right? PU finally shows up on the SPvP build list as well, which is probably why this seems like such a profound change to so many people. It went from never being considered to suddenly a very good choice for SPvP and mesmer actually has more than 1 “meta” build now

You’re repeatedly being confronted for solid answers but literally every single post you make is just a rehash of the previous one and some spin to turn it around on others. To hopefully avoid that, how about I ask a question.

Do you think that Prismatic Understanding is so overpowered that not only is it uncounterable, but also that at all levels of play and gamemodes, PU should be consistently taken instead of other Chaos GM traits or even other trait lines because it is just so great?

Just for the record, I’m not just blindly defending my class. I think some things could stand to be changed and fixed. As for PU, I think the best way to silence all this whining would be to revert it to +1 second base( although +2 seconds would be better), remove might and swiftness from the boon pool, increase Veil base duration to 4 seconds(3 if PU is +2) and Mass Invis to 8 seconds(as well as change the way MI interacts with the manipulation trait to prevent reflects instantly revealing you) and possibly change The Pledge to a static cd reduction.

@Necrotize
No, the counter arguments have been devoid of evidence and riddled with shoddy reasoning, like saying PU should be left alone because it doesn’t matter in pvp, as some have argued… repeatedly.

Look, the first step to solving a problem is recognizing there is one. PU is a problem, and a really easy one to solve. Even some of the people who’ve been against doing anything about PU have conceded it’s largely a troll trait or, as I’ve shown through my own experience, a way to cover for low skill.

Rolling back a buff that, afaik, NOBODY asked for and most mesmers apparently don’t use shouldn’t even be remotely controversial.

As for your preferred solution to PU, a +2s buff along with all of those other changes would do basically nothing to the stealth available to a PU mesmer (difference of 2s if they don’t take Veil, no difference if they do), while boosting the stealth of every non-PU mesmer running MI. That’s a stealth power creep, buddy, including your proposal to change The Pledge, which is just getting in front of an obvious bug fix and inserting a buff.

Lol, that’s some cynical stuff right there.

I have a counter proposal… run a +2s PU stealth buff on a trial basis (goes back to +1s if it’s too much), leaving all stealth bases alone except Veil, which goes to 4s. BUT, mesmer stealth skills cease being stackable. Using a stealth skill while in stealth simply resets the timer to the new skill’s duration.

You get to keep your ability to escape via stealth (and blink), but not as easily as you can now while using PU. No skill that you used to enter stealth will be off CD before your stealth ends, and your decision to hold your stealth skills for an escape pretty much comes at the cost of using those skills during the fight. Not unlike the stances used by pre-patch Nike warriors.

Land of Cheese.2584:

Phil.8901:

Everything is fine with PU

http://www.twitch.tv/thelordhelseth/v/8092661

“it’s soon over”

Wait, you took a stream from the captain of one of the 2 finalist teams for the PvP World Tournament as your evidence that PU is a problem? You took the stream of one of the best PvP mesmers in the world as your evidence that run of the mill PU is broken?

Are you high?

You right, it requires too much skill stay in hide for 6s and press 2+3+f1 (doing 15k+ in 1 sec)

And I play Mesmer lol

PU is totally broken.

Choppy.4183:

@Necrotize
No, the counter arguments have been devoid of evidence and riddled with shoddy reasoning, like saying PU should be left alone because it doesn’t matter in pvp, as some have argued… repeatedly.

Look, the first step to solving a problem is recognizing there is one. PU is a problem, and a really easy one to solve. Even some of the people who’ve been against doing anything about PU have conceded it’s largely a troll trait or, as I’ve shown through my own experience, a way to cover for low skill.

Rolling back a buff that, afaik, NOBODY asked for and most mesmers apparently don’t use shouldn’t even be remotely controversial.

As for your preferred solution to PU, a +2s buff along with all of those other changes would do basically nothing to the stealth available to a PU mesmer (difference of 2s if they don’t take Veil, no difference if they do), while boosting the stealth of every non-PU mesmer running MI. That’s a stealth power creep, buddy, including your proposal to change The Pledge, which is just getting in front of an obvious bug fix and inserting a buff.

Lol, that’s some cynical stuff right there.

I have a counter proposal… run a +2s PU stealth buff on a trial basis (goes back to +1s if it’s too much), leaving all stealth bases alone except Veil, which goes to 4s. BUT, mesmer stealth skills cease being stackable. Using a stealth skill while in stealth simply resets the timer to the new skill’s duration.

You get to keep your ability to escape via stealth (and blink), but not as easily as you can now while using PU. No skill that you used to enter stealth will be off CD before your stealth ends, and your decision to hold your stealth skills for an escape pretty much comes at the cost of using those skills during the fight. Not unlike the stances used by pre-patch Nike warriors.

The first step of solving a problem is recognizing there is one. The next step is this a problem for you and some others or is it a game breaking problem.

Never have I seen so many mesmers especially lower level ones being so aggressive. I am being attacked by Invader, Raider, etc, so they must be feeling their new found power. I know better than to complain about anything in WvW because its automatically ignored by Anet and I would just be wasting my time. I make sure I have a Mesmer friend around when I am roaming now.

jayson.6512:

Most of the mesmer main said that mesmer has a high skill cap after patch but i just saw this vid and mesmer rn has a low skill cap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtf63IpFLHw

I just have to add. This thread is regarding PU of how it’s unfair to other GM traits and what not / not fun to play vs. The video you linked, Tsuki is playing without PU. Full Glkittenter build. Full zerk gear in a wvw map where you can have ascended gear with might infusions and food.

Ive bursted warriors down with traveler runes before the June 23rd patch. WvW is not balanced. Stop treating it as actual pvp.

Loop.8106:

jayson.6512:

Most of the mesmer main said that mesmer has a high skill cap after patch but i just saw this vid and mesmer rn has a low skill cap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtf63IpFLHw

I just have to add. This thread is regarding PU of how it’s unfair to other GM traits and what not / not fun to play vs. The video you linked, Tsuki is playing without PU. Full Glkittenter build. Full zerk gear in a wvw map where you can have ascended gear with might infusions and food.

Ive bursted warriors down with traveler runes before the June 23rd patch. WvW is not balanced. Stop treating it as actual pvp.

Well this just proves their point by not using pu it needs a nerf! And if you use it nerf it too. Sadly choppy/Jason are angry warriors upset about the entrance of such an awesome class like the Mesmer.

[/quote]

Well this just proves their point by not using pu it needs a nerf! And if you use it nerf it too. [/quote]

Lol what

denis.9487:

Loop.8106:

jayson.6512:

Most of the mesmer main said that mesmer has a high skill cap after patch but i just saw this vid and mesmer rn has a low skill cap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtf63IpFLHw

I just have to add. This thread is regarding PU of how it’s unfair to other GM traits and what not / not fun to play vs. The video you linked, Tsuki is playing without PU. Full Glkittenter build. Full zerk gear in a wvw map where you can have ascended gear with might infusions and food.

Ive bursted warriors down with traveler runes before the June 23rd patch. WvW is not balanced. Stop treating it as actual pvp.

Well this just proves their point by not using pu it needs a nerf! And if you use it nerf it too.

LolWhat

denis.9487:

A thief using shadow refuge can dodge in stealth. How often to you honestly push pull a thief in shadow refuge. Almost like that’s the measure of a good thief.

considering that you don’t know when the knowback will come and you mostly only have 1 dodge, hmmm
smart players will wait a sec and then knock them out, thought of that?

Choppy.4183:

@apharma
I replied to your comment already and even gave an indication of when I’d be looking to get off the PU crutch. You also suggested it’d be better to try it out after the golem week was over. You do know what day it is today, right?

I’m also not sure how to factor in the increased dps I’ll be facing post patch. Open to ideas if you have them. Of course, I could forgo the whole experiment by pointing out that none of you stalwart defenders of PU have actually admitted to using it… In fact, I think you’ve all said that you don’t. Ptetty easy to conclude from that alone that the buff wasn’t particularly needed. Same with the general lack of demand for a stealth boost to PU pre-patch. I could also just ask all the people I know who main members whether they felt they were just free bags in Wvw. I’m fairly confident they’ll laugh at the idea.

I’m also not auto dismissing PvP elements. More than one of you guys made the case that the PU stealth buff provides little benefit there, yourself included iirc. If you want to walk back on that point, go ahead. But you’re the one taking PvP out of consideration by saying PU doesn’t matter there, not me.

@Necrotize
I was responding to Denis’ example. If you don’t think his example had merit because you’ve somehow divined the “truth” about what’s important in this game and what isn’t, take it up with him. At least try to keep up or just ignore the thread. It’s not hard, you know.

Ummmmm excuse me sir, I happen to main PU condi since I began my PvP career in gw2 2 years ago. Pretty bold of you to state that no one truly uses PU.

Choppy.4183:

@apharma
I replied to your comment already and even gave an indication of when I’d be looking to get off the PU crutch. You also suggested it’d be better to try it out after the golem week was over. You do know what day it is today, right?

I also said do your best in this week as most roaming groups are finding out that fighting in golems isn’t great given chill, cripple, immob etc. You also quoted Denis in your response and given the number of circles we keep going round I missed the last bit about PU crutch.

Choppy.4183:

I’m also not sure how to factor in the increased dps I’ll be facing post patch. Open to ideas if you have them. Of course, I could forgo the whole experiment by pointing out that none of you stalwart defenders of PU have actually admitted to using it… In fact, I think you’ve all said that you don’t. Ptetty easy to conclude from that alone that the buff wasn’t particularly needed. Same with the general lack of demand for a stealth boost to PU pre-patch. I could also just ask all the people I know who main members whether they felt they were just free bags in Wvw. I’m fairly confident they’ll laugh at the idea.

Guess you missed me say this:

As someone who played with and without PU pre nerf, then pre patch and now after, I can honestly say mesmers needed a stealth boost to disengage as I only ever got away with decoy+blink or if I was let go due to easier lootbags closer to the enemy. Anything less than 5s isn’t enough to put distance on a class that has poor swiftness.

So, no, you don’t get to simply blow off testing yourself. Mesmers also lost the cripple on clone death trait, so now we have fewer ways to slow the enemy down, don’t you think mesmers with poor swiftness should be compensated for, perhaps by some kind of buff to stealth disengage? As for more damage, you do more damage too, so go figure.

Choppy.4183:

I’m also not auto dismissing PvP elements. More than one of you guys made the case that the PU stealth buff provides little benefit there, yourself included iirc. If you want to walk back on that point, go ahead. But you’re the one taking PvP out of consideration by saying PU doesn’t matter there, not me.

Here it is, you “taking PvP out of the equation.”

Incorrect. Someone, you maybe, originally made the point that it didn’t provide a stealth benefit in PvP and so it shouldn’t be nerfed. My response then, and to you more recently, was that the proposition that PU stealth doesn’t matter in PvP pulls PvP out of consideration on whether or not the trait should be nerfed.
Every example I’ve given in support of a nerf has come from small to mid size Wvw, which is applicable in at least 3/4 of Wvw play.

Thing is, you can’t, as it’s the main balancing mode. This is what the game is balanced around. I also believe people said extra stealth is of less benefit due to point capture mechanics, not that it doesn’t matter. You’re whole argument is effectively saying, we should ignore how it’s balanced in all other game modes but WvW which by it’s very nature is really unbalanced not just in game mode but in stat inflation and general opponent differences.

apharma.3741:

Thing is, you can’t, as it’s the main balancing mode. This is what the game is balanced around. I also believe people said extra stealth is of less benefit due to point capture mechanics, not that it doesn’t matter. You’re whole argument is effectively saying, we should ignore how it’s balanced in all other game modes but WvW which by it’s very nature is really unbalanced not just in game mode but in stat inflation and general opponent differences.

Yes, well, sPvP is the main balancing mode. That is the problem.

PvE is 1-100 people fighting. WvW is 1-100 people fighting. sPvP is 5v5. You balance for the latter, which also for all we know is a serious minority gamemode.

How does this make any sense? How is balancing for the loudmouthed minority useful? I know they are still hunting this dream of being an eSports game, but really it just looks sad at this point. Like they’re unwilling to let go, despite how much better the game could be off if skills were evaluated for their scaling ability in combat not for their 5v5 power.

Carighan.6758:

apharma.3741:

Thing is, you can’t, as it’s the main balancing mode. This is what the game is balanced around. I also believe people said extra stealth is of less benefit due to point capture mechanics, not that it doesn’t matter. You’re whole argument is effectively saying, we should ignore how it’s balanced in all other game modes but WvW which by it’s very nature is really unbalanced not just in game mode but in stat inflation and general opponent differences.

Yes, well, sPvP is the main balancing mode. That is the problem.

PvE is 1-100 people fighting. WvW is 1-100 people fighting. sPvP is 5v5. You balance for the latter, which also for all we know is a serious minority gamemode.

How does this make any sense? How is balancing for the loudmouthed minority useful? I know they are still hunting this dream of being an eSports game, but really it just looks sad at this point. Like they’re unwilling to let go, despite how much better the game could be off if skills were evaluated for their scaling ability in combat not for their 5v5 power.

Your missing the point. The only consistent game mode is pvp 5v5. How would you scale any different. The reason being allow skills to function better at what cut off? Also in wvw you group with how many 5 no matter how many in your Zerg. So seems efficient.

denis.9487:

Your missing the point. The only consistent game mode is pvp 5v5. How would you scale any different. The reason being allow skills to function better at what cut off? Also in wvw you group with how many 5 no matter how many in your Zerg. So seems efficient.

Hrm, sorry, english isn’t my mother tongue. Maybe I could have worded it better.

My point was that the main balancing aspect of skills, traits and classes should not be their power in a 5v5 context, but rather their scaling capabilities. That is to say, the raw power is of secondary concern to whether they work fluidly from 1v1 to 100v100 or not.

This works because really, in PvE and WvW, actual per-point balance isn’t all that important. Important is whether it feels like 100v100 people can still viably have a fight. And whether 100v80 feels as if one side has a 25% advantage. And whether 3v3 feels balanced assuming that mirror matchups happen (same classes, skills, traits etc). Nothing inherently “breaks” due to the size of either group scaling up or down.

Secondary, once design of skills and skill loadouts have been balanced this way, people can start tweaking numbers to look at a more one-for-one balance. But this ought to be secondary to a more binary, “does it work or not?”-balance.

Carighan.6758:

denis.9487:

Your missing the point. The only consistent game mode is pvp 5v5. How would you scale any different. The reason being allow skills to function better at what cut off? Also in wvw you group with how many 5 no matter how many in your Zerg. So seems efficient.

Hrm, sorry, english isn’t my mother tongue. Maybe I could have worded it better.

My point was that the main balancing aspect of skills, traits and classes should not be their power in a 5v5 context, but rather their scaling capabilities. That is to say, the raw power is of secondary concern to whether they work fluidly from 1v1 to 100v100 or not.

This works because really, in PvE and WvW, actual per-point balance isn’t all that important. Important is whether it feels like 100v100 people can still viably have a fight. And whether 100v80 feels as if one side has a 25% advantage. And whether 3v3 feels balanced assuming that mirror matchups happen (same classes, skills, traits etc). Nothing inherently “breaks” due to the size of either group scaling up or down.

Secondary, once design of skills and skill loadouts have been balanced this way, people can start tweaking numbers to look at a more one-for-one balance. But this ought to be secondary to a more binary, “does it work or not?”-balance.

Wouldn’t that just compound the roaming issue. Most of the hate is from roaming. If I’m following you imagine a solo player entering wvw but there is 100 people on the map. That would mean even more insta kills. If I’m not following sorry to early need my coffee.

Yeah I know what you’re saying Carighan however it’s also worth saying instanced content is 5 player and most skills/traits have a 5 player cap.

It’s essentially balanced around a full party.

In all the games I’ve played it’s very hard to balance around 1-100 without factoring in scaling which has it’s own problems of hidden mechanics.

Having said that if we were to bring PvE also into this discussion of PU I can flat out say giving another class the ability to help skip via invis and then by portal and alternating it is fantastic. No longer are we mostly reliant on thieves or possibly engineers for skipping which is nice. Though GuardWAY is still a thing and incredibly strong for skipping also.

I also forgot to mention stealth generally loses value when scaling up to that 100 player fight. Not massively like pets but because there’s AoE everywhere you’re always on the outskirts and generally mobility skills will help more to jump into protection range of your zerg than stealth as AoE will still get you.

Note: That is not a reason to tone down stealth.

denis.9487:

Wouldn’t that just compound the roaming issue. Most of the hate is from roaming. If I’m following you imagine a solo player entering wvw but there is 100 people on the map. That would mean even more insta kills. If I’m not following sorry to early need my coffee.

Hrm, in theory yes insofar that if they stumble into a zerg of 100 players, they’d be screwed. But then, they are either way.

Rather, if more focus is put onto ability performance or rather viability in different sizes of groups, that solo player shouldn’t be impacted much so long as they fight solo players. Assuming that it’s a mirror matchup (because otherwise it’s not balanced, isn’t now, either).

Purecura.1795:

Choppy.4183:

I’m also not auto dismissing PvP elements. More than one of you guys made the case that the PU stealth buff provides little benefit there, yourself included iirc. If you want to walk back on that point, go ahead. But you’re the one taking PvP out of consideration by saying PU doesn’t matter there, not me.

Ummmmm excuse me sir, I happen to main PU condi since I began my PvP career in gw2 2 years ago. Pretty bold of you to state that no one truly uses PU.

I’m going to have to assume you’re addressing that to apharma and the other mesmers who’ve made that claim and not me, given you quoted me saying exactly that.

apharma.3741:

Thing is, you can’t, as it’s the main balancing mode. This is what the game is balanced around. I also believe people said extra stealth is of less benefit due to point capture mechanics, not that it doesn’t matter. You’re whole argument is effectively saying, we should ignore how it’s balanced in all other game modes but WvW which by it’s very nature is really unbalanced not just in game mode but in stat inflation and general opponent differences.

No, I’ve not made any claims about pvp… I’ve repeated claims made by some of you that were used as counter arguments to rolling back the buff, that’s it. Only now are we starting to see you guys talking about a value to PU in pvp… until now, the point has been “nobody takes PU in pvp” and “the stealth bonus doesn’t do anything because it keeps you from capping point”.

But sure, let’s stick with the new line, especially if it’s more accurate. My earlier proposal to Necrotize wouldn’t affect pvp much at all. It would be better than PU was prepatch, it would retain the tactical stealth that’s relevant in pvp while removing the troll aspects that are a problem in wvw.

Why wouldn’t that make everyone happy?

Choppy.4183:

apharma.3741:

Thing is, you can’t, as it’s the main balancing mode. This is what the game is balanced around. I also believe people said extra stealth is of less benefit due to point capture mechanics, not that it doesn’t matter. You’re whole argument is effectively saying, we should ignore how it’s balanced in all other game modes but WvW which by it’s very nature is really unbalanced not just in game mode but in stat inflation and general opponent differences.

No, I’ve not made any claims about pvp… I’ve repeated claims made by some of you that were used as counter arguments to rolling back the buff, that’s it. Only now are we starting to see you guys talking about a value to PU in pvp… until now, the point has been “nobody takes PU in pvp” and “the stealth bonus doesn’t do anything because it keeps you from capping point”.

But sure, let’s stick with the new line, especially if it’s more accurate. My earlier proposal to Necrotize wouldn’t affect pvp much at all. It would be better than PU was prepatch, it would retain the tactical stealth that’s relevant in pvp while removing the troll aspects that are a problem in wvw.

Why wouldn’t that make everyone happy?

You can make some people happy some of the time but you can’t make all people happy all of the time. I suppose you should just create your own game at this point and deal with stealth as you see fit. Thing is no one knows in this arguement, we are in a transition period no one knows what’s next come hot. Instead of playing the game with new traits to keep us interested and have a little taste of what’s to come some people choose to qq over certain aspects of the game. No matter how you slice and dice Mesmer pre patch was limited in all 3 game modes now in this influx environment we have a purpose. Who is to say this won’t change come hot.

denis.9487:

You can make some people happy some of the time but you can’t make all people happy all of the time. I suppose you should just create your own game at this point and deal with stealth as you see fit. Thing is no one knows in this arguement, we are in a transition period no one knows what’s next come hot. Instead of playing the game with new traits to keep us interested and have a little taste of what’s to come some people choose to qq over certain aspects of the game. No matter how you slice and dice Mesmer pre patch was limited in all 3 game modes now in this influx environment we have a purpose. Who is to say this won’t change come hot.

Lol, I’m pretty sure you’re a troll now. Not just for your “que sera sera” comment, but because I just figured I’d go through your post history to see if you had the same point of view as you seem to have now. What did I find on the first page I looked at?

From https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Is-Mesmer-really-a-good-choice-for-beginners/page/2….

denis.9487:

denis.9487:

Mesmer rocks. Just start small. Ignore the people that say shatter or die. Ease into the class with forgiving specs such as condition pu move to power pu. Then gradually change over pieces to become a bursty spec in pvp/wvw. Mesmer is a boss class. Become feared on your wvw home world!!

I stand by this. Mesmer is wicked in wvw. What other class can 100 to 0? Learning the class and what you can do is the fun part. I started the same way in first post. Now running 44006 gs/sword torch. The joke I suppose is on your spiked corpse clicking a way point.

Lmao. I even looked around through some of your other posts in case you were making a joke. Nope, the general theme was that mesmer was plenty powerful in wvw, but suffered in other areas. Now? “OMG, mesmer needed escape because it was a free bag!”. Lol.

Choppy.4183:

denis.9487:

You can make some people happy some of the time but you can’t make all people happy all of the time. I suppose you should just create your own game at this point and deal with stealth as you see fit. Thing is no one knows in this arguement, we are in a transition period no one knows what’s next come hot. Instead of playing the game with new traits to keep us interested and have a little taste of what’s to come some people choose to qq over certain aspects of the game. No matter how you slice and dice Mesmer pre patch was limited in all 3 game modes now in this influx environment we have a purpose. Who is to say this won’t change come hot.

Lol, I’m pretty sure you’re a troll now. Not just for your “que sera sera” comment, but because I just figured I’d go through your post history to see if you had the same point of view as you seem to have now. What did I find on the first page I looked at?

From https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Is-Mesmer-really-a-good-choice-for-beginners/page/2….

denis.9487:

denis.9487:

Mesmer rocks. Just start small. Ignore the people that say shatter or die. Ease into the class with forgiving specs such as condition pu move to power pu. Then gradually change over pieces to become a bursty spec in pvp/wvw. Mesmer is a boss class. Become feared on your wvw home world!!

I stand by this. Mesmer is wicked in wvw. What other class can 100 to 0? Learning the class and what you can do is the fun part. I started the same way in first post. Now running 44006 gs/sword torch. The joke I suppose is on your spiked corpse clicking a way point.

Lmao. I even looked around through some of your other posts in case you were making a joke. Nope, the general theme was that mesmer was plenty powerful in wvw, but suffered in other areas. Now? “OMG, mesmer needed escape because it was a free bag!”. Lol.

I’m tired of trying to get my point across to a warrior who posted the same thing first in the warrior forums about letting it play out. Then came here and started a pu campaign in 3 threads. Figured take the high ground.

Should I pull up your very first post in the warrior forum??? Sad man.

And funny how all you can say to my higher ground post is show my arguements. What I said must have merit then since you choose to ignore it.

Choppy.4183:

denis.9487:

You can make some people happy some of the time but you can’t make all people happy all of the time. I suppose you should just create your own game at this point and deal with stealth as you see fit. Thing is no one knows in this arguement, we are in a transition period no one knows what’s next come hot. Instead of playing the game with new traits to keep us interested and have a little taste of what’s to come some people choose to qq over certain aspects of the game. No matter how you slice and dice Mesmer pre patch was limited in all 3 game modes now in this influx environment we have a purpose. Who is to say this won’t change come hot.

Lol, I’m pretty sure you’re a troll now. Not just for your “que sera sera” comment, but because I just figured I’d go through your post history to see if you had the same point of view as you seem to have now. What did I find on the first page I looked at?

From https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Is-Mesmer-really-a-good-choice-for-beginners/page/2….

denis.9487:

denis.9487:

Mesmer rocks. Just start small. Ignore the people that say shatter or die. Ease into the class with forgiving specs such as condition pu move to power pu. Then gradually change over pieces to become a bursty spec in pvp/wvw. Mesmer is a boss class. Become feared on your wvw home world!!

I stand by this. Mesmer is wicked in wvw. What other class can 100 to 0? Learning the class and what you can do is the fun part. I started the same way in first post. Now running 44006 gs/sword torch. The joke I suppose is on your spiked corpse clicking a way point.

Lmao. I even looked around through some of your other posts in case you were making a joke. Nope, the general theme was that mesmer was plenty powerful in wvw, but suffered in other areas. Now? “OMG, mesmer needed escape because it was a free bag!”. Lol.

You once accused me of a straw man. So in a typical slander move you take a post about whether Mesmer is a good beginner choice and try and spin it. That post was made pre patch so that build was 44006. No pu in that build. So again not sure what bearing it has on this topic. If anything you have proven my point the burst from Mesmer is there regardless if you trait pu. Pu allows re positioning and fleeing.

@Denis
I’m sorry I seem to have really got you agitated there. I genuinely thought you’d been trolling me when I looked at your post history.

The fact is, your post doesn’t just say mesmer is easy for beginners, and neither do your other posts around the same time. You clearly said you found mesmers extremely powerful in Wvw prepatch, which is in direct contradiction to your Wvw-based arguments for keeping the PU stealth buff.

And feel free to replicate the post of mine you’re referring to. But you misunderstood it the first time you did that and that didn’t appear to have changed.

But, yeah, sorry you’re so agitated. It wasn’t my intent, and I’m actually pretty confused by your reaction.

Choppy.4183:

No, I’ve not made any claims about pvp… I’ve repeated claims made by some of you that were used as counter arguments to rolling back the buff, that’s it. Only now are we starting to see you guys talking about a value to PU in pvp… until now, the point has been “nobody takes PU in pvp” and “the stealth bonus doesn’t do anything because it keeps you from capping point”.

Incorrect, no-one said that as far as I remember. They said it was of less value in PvP. They said you gave up team support for selfish defence. They even said that other lines were better for the team however no-one as far as I remember said no-one picked it.

The last thing about point capping is also true, hence why we don’t see thieves doing more than decapping or free capping

Choppy.4183:

But sure, let’s stick with the new line, especially if it’s more accurate. My earlier proposal to Necrotize wouldn’t affect pvp much at all. It would be better than PU was prepatch, it would retain the tactical stealth that’s relevant in pvp while removing the troll aspects that are a problem in wvw.

Why wouldn’t that make everyone happy?

But why change it at all if it’s not a problem in the mode (PvP) we’re balancing around?

Consequently your arguments are it is very strong in small scale roaming however you can’t balance around that because of the following:

1. Someone could have guard stacks, the other not, 2500HP and 100 condi and power difference
2. Someone could have ascended the other masterwork.
3. One can be level 80 and the other boosted to 80, the latter being significantly weaker.
4. Non lvl 80s do not have all the traits or utilities unlocked.
5. Not all runes and stat combinations are as easy or cheap to get, some of which offer sizeable advantages.
6. There is no disadvantage to running away, healing then rejoining (In PvP that costs you)
7. There are places to run into to hide like towers to heal, get cleansed, rez and then re-engage.
8. Teams aren’t balanced, at any moment a 5v4 in your favour could become a 5v8 against you.

So I’m sorry but you’re arguments just fall flat on their face because it is inherently imbalanced at it’s core.

Now, care to start addressing my point about the torch trait and how that might be the source of most of these high stealth mesmers, seriously run that trait with your PU mesmer and see how much more ridiculous it is. Then run without PU and see how utterly useless that trait is. To anyone with common sense they would say alter the torch trait then see how PU fairs.

Edited: added a few more things to the list.

I have never said we were weak. Shatter build was an unforgiving spec. Post patch you have sustain options. I have constantly stated the burst is with or without pu. And pu works as a defensive trait and by taking if you give up more cc support or damage.

@apharma
Why wouldn’t you fix a balance problem in one aspect of the game, especially when you could do it without negatively impacting other aspects? Leaving it as is on that argument is nonsensical.

@denis
Your post also states the class was forgiving for a beginner not running shatter, and your Wvw argument in favor of leaving PU with the buff increase was that it was needed for survival. I’m sorry, but your own posts present a “godlike” (your word) Wvw class prepatch, and everyone, yourself included, have acknowledged that mesmer has gotten even stronger relative to other classes with the patch.

Allow me to summarize the last 3 pages.

Choppy: I think PU is overpowered in WvW roaming because a Mesmer killed me and I don’t like that.

Everyone else: PU isn’t really overpowered in WvW roaming, and it’s decidedly a non-issue in literally every single other game mode.

Basically, Choppy is repeating the same tired point over and over again. ‘I think PU is overpowered in WvW roaming’. Yes, we get that you think so, but even if it is, who cares? Not Anet obviously, and not the vast majority of people who play this game. Give it a rest already.

Choppy.4183:

@apharma
Why wouldn’t you fix a balance problem in one aspect of the game, especially when you could do it without negatively impacting other aspects? Leaving it as is on that argument is nonsensical.

You have yet to prove it is a balance problem with PU. Show me how PU on it’s own is a balance issue as opposed to the torch trait The Pledge.

That’s without you addressing other issues of imbalance in the area you’re claiming it’s imbalanced in. How do we know that the other people are using the same level gear, they’re the same level, they haven’t just been fighting and so don’t have cool downs? What’s stopping them running into a tower and healing. What’s stopping them kiting to NPCs to get “back up”, what’s stopping them rallying off a deer?

How do we define winning and losing? Does running away count as a win or a lose? What’s stopping people from coming to +1 a fight? Are we now going to make up artificial rules of engagement and start balancing around a made up game mode not intended by Anet?

denis.9487
Mesmer rocks. Just start small. Ignore the people that say shatter or die. Ease into the class with forgiving specs such as condition pu move to power pu. Then gradually change over pieces to become a bursty spec in pvp/wvw. Mesmer is a boss class. Become feared on your wvw home world!!
April 13th, 22:33
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This was from the same thread. Again you took a snip from a thread and used it to support your imaginary personal mission to nerf pu.

If you take the time Mesmer is feared if you know what you are doing. I feel like I’m in a political smear campaign. I feel dirty lol.