Guild Wars 2

Solori.6025:

ASP.8093:

I feel like this discussion is way more personal than it needs to be. :/

Yea…
Hommie is talking about his post history like we attacked his family and dishonored his land.

Lol, if you don’t want answers to your questions, don’t ask them.

Solori.6025:

Two things.

What new nerf that wasn’t reported is now keeping thieves from stealthing more often than any other class?
None?
No, being a thief doesn’t mean free and easy kill anymore, sorry.
You need to relearn how to fight every class because you don’t have it easy anymore.
Saying that mesmer’s have too much stealth compared to a thief who spends next to nothing to get into stealth is laughable.
Especially when you can stealth with no CD’s at will.

Secondly,
You need to start thinking outside the box instead of relying on the SA crutch.

Sorry, What?!
Thieves were part of the meta for spvp for basically 2 years.
Their access to stealth and mobility will insure that they are kept in the meta until something changes where mobility and/or stealth means nothing.

What game have you been playing where a team decided a mesmer and thief were on the same bottom scale level?

You sound a bit salty, at this point.

Wait, you mean the niche role that only theif has been able to play since..I don’t know
Forever.
Both a mesmer and a thief are capable of +1ing a fight. Only before the patch thief was the ONLY option for that role.
Now you have 2 classes that can fulfill that role.
I can’t think of any other role that mesmer could offer that another class won’t do better.
Try thinking outside the box as far as thief builds go, you’ll be surprised at the old weaponsets that we have that are viable again.

Lastly, Some nerfs for mesmer have been suggested that I think the majority of the mesmer community can agree on.
Maybe look to those threads and offer some type of constructive post instead of the atrocious bias filled QQ post you just did.

I’ll try to keep this short.

1.) Thief stealth was discussed in the livestream and permanent stealth was removed by the removal of IoS. It has been stated over and over again by both thieves and mesmer since 6/23 that the mesmer now has better stealth uptime than the thief.

2.) You’re jumping the gun on me playing SA lol. You must not pay any attention whatsoever to the thief community seeing as I’m probably one of the biggest SA-haters playing thief. Do please look at my post history about SA – you will not ever find a single post of mine defending this trait line as being balanced or a good idea in concept – I would say a very large portion of the thief community actively dislikes me because I’ve repeatedly tried to get Shadow Arts nerfed in the past, and absolutely refuse to play that trait line unless I’m trolling P/P healing power for leeching venoms (see below), no matter how good it is. You’d see me sooner giving up on the thief altogether than playing SA on any serious build. So if you want to fling insults about playing with a “crutch,” please know who you’re talking to.

3.) The thief and mesmer have had similar representation in high-tier sPvP and overall similar effectiveness in their given roles. D/P is just typically easier than any other thief build while also providing the best utility. In the WTS, Helseth gave more fight value to TCG than Sizer and Toker, despite being hard-countered. Most of the value gained from the thieves in the series came from uncontested point caps, and in multiple instances throughout the tourney, thieves sat back waiting to +1 due to sheer incapability of fighting for any amount of time alone. This could have been performed relatively easily by any other class, and strictly speaking, without the terrain abuse of the shortbow to speed this up, would have given zero incentive to bring a thief to begin with. As you say, meta-playing-crutch noobs need to think outside the box, and Helseth was one of the biggest contributors to TCG, while their lack of an Engineer and use of a thief is what appears to have caused them to lose.

4.) That is the only role available to the thief. The mesmer, even before the buffs, had the ability to provide a bit more to a team, proven again and again by high-tier players. Protected and safe caps and lower mobility cooldowns since 6/23 for the mesmer have allowed it to out-perform some class’ only available roles while maintaining its previous use of mixed point offense/defense and both solo and group potential.

5.) Thinking outside the box? I hate to break it to you, but I’ve been doing that for a very, very long time. I won a dueling tournament as a P/P healing power cleric/dwayna venom thief. When it comes to thief builds, I’ve done it all. There is no room left for innovation within the class, sorry.

6.) A lot of people seem to be stating that PU’s stealth duration is too high, which I mentioned as a major cause of the problem, and why I explained why AOE reveals are a bad idea in regards to the scope of other classes when the notion was proposed as being a fair way to balance the mesmer’s stealth; it isn’t.

Regardless about your feelings on the SA line DeceiverX, using that line with SR and blinding powder with offhand pistol will give you 100% stealth uptime. Out of combat you can have 100% stealth uptime on 5 (1 of which is you) people and thieves have almost an entire monopoly on smoke fields with which to grant stealth.

That’s without mentioning the ability to cloak and dagger off buildings in WvW allowing even offhand dagger to keep enough stealth up time to be a pita.

Saying mesmers have higher stealth uptime than thieves doesn’t make it true. They would have to devote nearly all their trait lines (not all the traits in the line though) and a good chunk, if not all of their utility and elite slots for that.

Oh and AoE reveals are not for balancing PU, it’s for balancing stealth across the game which has caused so much of a pain to your main class.

MailMail.6534:

Solori.6025:

MailMail.6534:

StickerHappy.8052:

One thing I would change is make Blinding Dissipation A GM then DE a Master. So BD competes with HM, so you can trait for defense and offense at the same time.

Just my 2 cents.

Having DE & HM would be a nightmare. Also, making DE compete with sword trait and the reflects would be a nerf for PvE/WvW builds. It’s already competitive enough with BD being there. Oh wow look at me being considerate of other game types and all! #PatsSelfOnBack

Well..The reflects can be gotten from chaos, I do agree that it would compete heavily with the sword trait.
But..
I like bedlam.
I think DE and HM would be absolutely hilariously chaotic.

I’m no PvEr, but I don’t imagine Manipulations are really useful there outside of possibly Blink.

DE & HM would cause everyone to unplug their computers.

Nah, atleast DE and HM would allow you to go all offensive, giving opponents a fair chance to kill you.

going DE and BD allows you to be more defensive lowering offense a little bit, making the fight last worthwhile

Theif stealth heal you , clear conditions , grants boons etc mesmer stealth does nothing unless you are using that gm trait and if it didnt buff the duration there would be no reason to use it. No decent players are going to use 3 skill slots and torch
its called troll.
Also backstab hit you no matter what. Same with mantras but they are much weaker.
Mantra of distraction you can just a stunbreaker and go back.
you can see illusions running towards you they have next to no health.
They can be obstructed or out of range if you put down line of warding they all die.
So in order to burst down 15k in 1 go they would have to be in melee range
already have 3 clones up. that is not something which happens a lot.
in a team fight you are more likely to hit somone with kill shot.
Also people love to complain about blinding dissepation guess what the blind dosen’t come from the clones its on the mesmer himself and its 1 blind for 3 seconds.
We dont have heavy armor thats why we need to not get hit.
We also dont have perma protection and regen with cleansing
conditions every 5 seconds like an elementalist.
If you want to nerf mesmer defense you need to come up with an alternative
Im not talking about just PU because aparently its all defense mechanics which is “OP”.

You have to run SA/Trickery/Acro x/D + SB thief in full stealth everything/initiative regen traits + blasting SS with no nearby target to make it work on top of chain CnD on a nearby non-moving target for just self-stealth while also combined with perfect 1s increment dodges to bolster the initiative regen fast enough while meanwhile not hitting anything. All 18 points and a trait setup so bad you’d probably lose to a condi perplexity axe/axe warrior.

Theoretically possible, I guess, so I’ll concede that okay, the thief can have permanent stealth uptime, given a build that cannot fight and cannot have nearby enemies or full control over attack-able objects’ positions, from SS blasts (leaps will not work). In any way shape or form usable? Absolutely not.

So yea, unless you’re running a pointless build that physically can’t deal damage and offers really nothing to anyone, the mesmer ends up with better combat stealth uptime due to the revealed effect opportunity cost when considering realistic initiative and skill use from a thief.

Sooo, why do I hate Mesmers… When starting GW2, whenever I laid eyes on the Mesmer class I knew it was going to be trouble. When going beyond 2000h of game time as an Engineer and fiddling with other classes in PvP to catch their mechanisms, I rarely was motivated to face a Mesmer.

I’ve killed my share, with great success, even now with the engineer being gutted, but the fight itself is something I hate, having to pull an amount of APM comparable to a Grandmaster Korean Zerg player when facing someone who doesn’t even try his hardest, knowing at any moment that if I waste more than two of my abilities I’m dead and buried. Not fun. And then there’s the disengage. It’s rare for me to keep enough ressources on the side to counter that.

Add on top of this, that since Mesmer is in a good shape and has stealth blah blah blah yada yada, every kitten around rolls one to spit on the graves of the less experienced players in WvW. And that sums it up.

I don’t hate every single one of you. But well. I guess it’s exactly like humanity itself.

I also did have the same beef with Thief in all their builds but I’ve honestly had less trouble with them, in most of circumstances they were prone to more than brutal counter-attacks.

DeceiverX.8361:

6.) A lot of people seem to be stating that PU’s stealth duration is too high, which I mentioned as a major cause of the problem, and why I explained why AOE reveals are a bad idea in regards to the scope of other classes when the notion was proposed as being a fair way to balance the mesmer’s stealth; it isn’t.

1-2 You’re right, I took a browse through your history, Sorry about the SA comment.
Secondly, that is true about perma stealth but not true about the access to stealth or the frequency, though I am not talking about perma stealth to begin with ( as that can’t be done with mesmer without a second stealth class. I believe that was confirmed from out resident mathematician) But the frequency a thief can stealth is much much higher.
Lastly
DarkSyze I am pretty sure has you beat on SA hate….though to be fair he hates the entire profession.

3-4. The frequency of classes taken was actually documented in a ToL or WTS (cant remember which) and the mesmer was actually at the bottom.
Secondly, even helseth said that D/P thief offered more to his team when he tried it.
I believe it was a thing with him and supercutie getting upset with the tools that a thief got over a mesmer, and it locked other classes out of the role of roaming, group fights, and backcapping.
Actually to quote the stream
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/balance/sPvP-Helseth-Sensotix-Quit-Mesmer/first#post3588776
[Stream:] “I thought you said mesmer is viable?”
Mesmer isn’t viable, I am.
I have made that statement before if you look at my YouTube video.
Here is the deal: Mesmer is viable right now because the competition is kitten.

Mesmer is bad compared to backstab thief. Period.
There is nothing a Mesmer brings that makes it worth taking over a backstab Thief. Nothing. Like what exactly does a Mesmer bring that makes it worth it?
PORTAL! Exactly! That is the one thing that makes you want to bring Mesmer.
Portal! 90 second cool down utility to port the team around. That is the one reason you would bring Mesmer over Thief.
The damage of Mesmer vs Thief is pathetic. Like it’s no contest. Thief easily trumps shatter. The tools I have as Thief exceeds what I have as a Mesmer. Simple as that.
Portal is why you want to take Mesmer, but Mesmer has pathetic mobility compared to thief, way less evades, way less damage. Like the one thing Mesmer has is utility in the portal and more reliable boon stealing. But thief has so much utility as well.
You guys can bother with your Mesmer all that you want. I am not telling you to quit Mesmer, I am saying I am quitting Mesmer.
I am done playing Mesmer, I am done. I am a kitten (bad) D/P thief, but I won’t be for long. It has nothing to do with giving up on Mesmer. It is not giving up; it is just realizing that D/P has more potential. If I was as good on D/P thief as I am on Mesmer, then I´d be a much more useful player.
[Stream:] “Can you name some of the key reasons to why you don’t want to play Mesmer anymore?”

OK. Mobility: Thief wins, damage: Thief wins, survivability: Thief wins, utility: Thief slightly worse. So there you go. There you go. Thief is much better than Mesmer in every single regard and they have the same role. No point. Literally no point of playing Mesmer.

5. Cool welcome to the innovation club, your dues are 100g you can go ahead and mail them to me <_<…I think you are wrong about the innovation of the class.
I think there is plenty of room for those who look for it.
I also think there are plenty of changes A-net should implement to open up more playstyles for the thief. But I think we can both agree. The thief is not in a good place right now.

There is actually a bugged trait in illusions that is causing the stealth uptime to be higher than it actually needs to be.
A lot of mesmers have been wanting PU to be shaved to a base 2s increase for all stealth.
I think that would be fair.

Threads like this make me think that the GW2 community is slowly going bad.

I said off hand dagger has enough stealth uptime to be a pita not that they had perma stealth. SA minor gives 4s of stealth off CD, the GM gives 1 initiative back per 3s in stealth and you regen 1 every second. C&D costs 6. So every time you use it you stealth for 4s and at the end of those 4s you have 1 less initiative total.

After 48s you will start to run out of initiative however if you’re running infiltrators signet that will have given you back 4 over that, waiting an extra second (and hiding old school style) or using SR can maintain a high enough stealth uptime to be a pita to anyone trying to find you in a keep.

That’s without mentioning a D/P thief can sit in stealth permanently, I know, I did it yesterday, 100% stealth uptime. Trickery line is a good line for offence and SA is a good defence line, complaining someone would have to take them and it would be bad isn’t true. You can then take critical strikes or deadly arts for more attack.

Where as mesmers actually do have to devote their entire build to stealth or need to get other mesmers to cover the down time, you know this, you even commented on the perma stealth thread.

This community is sick. Even after getting buffed immensely, people claim that mesmers are not OP and that is a L2P issue. As someone else said, mesmers running the power shatter build can blind very often, stealth very easily, initiate a tremendous burst, can still sustain dmg from range, have access to several invulnerabilities and reflects, and have access to strong cc.

How can anyone not desperately trying to cling to the current form of Mesmer justify this, and go on to bash other professions? That is beyond deluded and hypocritical.

Mesmer has never been easier, and never felt more god mode. I do not feel like skillful play is rewarded any longer. I would welcome nerfs to Mesmer, or otherwise every noob will go out there playing a mesmer, abandoning other professions with far less power and options.

The ultimate reason is that Mesmers are a class which punishes bad play more than other classes. Except Thieves, they do the same even more so. And hey, they’re hated like few others, too. Even across games, as stealth tends to exploit mistakes and lo and behold, people generally hate stealthers.

If you play well, a Mesmer isn’t really all that dangerous. They’re no longer free kills as they used to be, but they’re not any more dangerous than other well-played classes.
However if you play meh or make a lot of singular mistakes between otherwise decent play, Mesmers will be annoying to fight. And the “annoy” is an important part of it.

We should do a challenge,the first and fastest person to read all this topic replys,gains 100g .

Remember the crying from mesmers when thiefs could burst them down from stealth, and now we can do the same and its ok all of a sudden? Come on be honest it;s insane now.

aspirine.6852:

Remember the crying from mesmers when thiefs could burst them down from stealth, and now we can do the same and its ok all of a sudden? Come on be honest it;s insane now.

What’s changed? The Mesmer can fight back. It’s insane Mesmer can fight back?!?!?

denis.9487:

aspirine.6852:

Remember the crying from mesmers when thiefs could burst them down from stealth, and now we can do the same and its ok all of a sudden? Come on be honest it;s insane now.

What’s changed? The Mesmer can fight back. It’s insane Mesmer can fight back?!?!?

Pretty much could fight back before,maybe you need to play more..?

Sandrox.9524:

denis.9487:

aspirine.6852:

Remember the crying from mesmers when thiefs could burst them down from stealth, and now we can do the same and its ok all of a sudden? Come on be honest it;s insane now.

What’s changed? The Mesmer can fight back. It’s insane Mesmer can fight back?!?!?

Pretty much could fight back before,maybe you need to play more..?

That statement “l2p” should be applied before you even posted.

This thread in a nutshell:
“l2p!”
“no u!”
“no u!”
“no u!”

In all seriousness the player base has adjusted since release. This is not a statement saying we are fine. I agree some things needs looking at but only after stat transfer across all toons. Just hate the Mesmer bashing, the class finally received some much needed attention.

Much of it is just ranger players unhappy with their profession and lashing out at mesmers. They even needed to start their own thread in the ranger forum about it.

There are some tweaks I really, really want to see, but, in all honesty, the way people complain about it? It’s pretty obvious that there are a ton of mechanics they previously didn’t need to give a crap about because the builds that ran them just didn’t have the DPS to be particularly threatening (despite going full zerk) even when you played into their hands cluelessly every time. Universal access to IP really changes things.

A good mesmer could “fight back” against a good thief pre-patch the same way a house cat could fight a puma. Sure the house cat might land a few scratches, but it will inevitably lose and die or have to run away and hide, even though the puma is probably faster.

Levetty.1279:

The thing a lot of replies are missing is Mesmer has pretty much been hated non stop since the Open betas no matter what state they were in. So obviously when Mesmers got made viable again they were going to get a lot of hate no matter what, thats why you see a lot more hate directed to Mesmers then the other classes who can currently put out similar burst and/or use stealth.

GTFO. Mesmers have never truly been in a bad state at ANY point in this games existence. Everyone that plays an OP class will defend it to death because they don’t want to see it come to an end. I defended the kitten out of necro Dhuumfire when that trait first came out, but in the end it wound up nerfed. I’m sure rangers all defended their spirit builds when that was the hotness, but alas, it was also nerfed. The list goes on and on. I understand you don’t want your good times to come to an end, but the unfortunate truth is that a nerf is inevitable given enough QQ.

aspirine.6852:

Remember the crying from mesmers when thiefs could burst them down from stealth, and now we can do the same and its ok all of a sudden? Come on be honest it;s insane now.

Remember how Theifs have been able to do this and abuse stealth for 3 years and everytime somebody complained they were called noobs and its a l2p issue but suddenly because Mesmer can do it its a problem?

Dr Acula.3496:

Levetty.1279:

The thing a lot of replies are missing is Mesmer has pretty much been hated non stop since the Open betas no matter what state they were in. So obviously when Mesmers got made viable again they were going to get a lot of hate no matter what, thats why you see a lot more hate directed to Mesmers then the other classes who can currently put out similar burst and/or use stealth.

GTFO. Mesmers have never truly been in a bad state at ANY point in this games existence. Everyone that plays an OP class will defend it to death because they don’t want to see it come to an end. I defended the kitten out of necro Dhuumfire when that trait first came out, but in the end it wound up nerfed. I’m sure rangers all defended their spirit builds when that was the hotness, but alas, it was also nerfed. The list goes on and on. I understand you don’t want your good times to come to an end, but the unfortunate truth is that a nerf is inevitable given enough QQ.

I would rather be an underdog and play an underpowered class skillfully, The feeling when they finally tell you, GGWP. /grin

Mesmers are a difficult class to handle for newcomers. Learning to identify the clones from the mesmer in time to dodge his bursts or CC takes time.

More importantly, there simply aren’t enough pvp games where there’s a presence of classes with clone/deception mechanisms.

Dr Acula.3496:

GTFO. Mesmers have never truly been in a bad state at ANY point in this games existence. Everyone that plays an OP class will defend it to death because they don’t want to see it come to an end.

Lies, fairytales and fantasies.

While some Mesmers are defending obviously OP traits, I think most Mesmers are more than fair in regards to balancing including when it comes to our own class. There’s entire threads of Mesmers attacking each other for calling for nerfs to our own class. So please don’t paint the Mesmer community with a broad brush of deceit. Thank you.

Levetty.1279:

aspirine.6852:

Remember the crying from mesmers when thiefs could burst them down from stealth, and now we can do the same and its ok all of a sudden? Come on be honest it;s insane now.

Remember how Theifs have been able to do this and abuse stealth for 3 years and everytime somebody complained they were called noobs and its a l2p issue but suddenly because Mesmer can do it its a problem?

When thieves could do a 100-0 burst from stealth everyone, including mesmers, complained and thieves said it is a L2P issue.

Now that mesmers can do the same, they also say it is a L2P issue.

There are three possibilities:
1) Both thieves and mesmers are right in saying it is a L2P issue
2) both thieves and mesmers are lying to avoid nerfs to their OP mechanic
3) mesmers are the biggest hypocrites ever

Youkay.5294:

Levetty.1279:

aspirine.6852:

Remember the crying from mesmers when thiefs could burst them down from stealth, and now we can do the same and its ok all of a sudden? Come on be honest it;s insane now.

Remember how Theifs have been able to do this and abuse stealth for 3 years and everytime somebody complained they were called noobs and its a l2p issue but suddenly because Mesmer can do it its a problem?

When thieves could do a 100-0 burst from stealth everyone, including mesmers, complained and thieves said it is a L2P issue.

Now that mesmers can do the same, they also say it is a L2P issue.

There are four possibilities:
1) Both thieves and mesmers are right in saying it is a L2P issue
2) both thieves and mesmers are lying to avoid nerfs to their OP mechanic
3) mesmers are the biggest hypocrites ever
4) thieves smell

Fixed that for you

denis.9487:

What’s changed? The Mesmer can fight back. It’s insane Mesmer can fight back?!?!?

Something being annoying or overpowered to fight against isn’t ok because the other side is it, too.

Balance exists outside of pure 1v1 comparisons, too. In fact, you get better balance if you ignore the other classes during the first, conceptual, balance pass. The second one looks at relative balance but is not allowed to change functionality or concept, only numbers.

denis.9487:

Sandrox.9524:

denis.9487:

aspirine.6852:

Remember the crying from mesmers when thiefs could burst them down from stealth, and now we can do the same and its ok all of a sudden? Come on be honest it;s insane now.

What’s changed? The Mesmer can fight back. It’s insane Mesmer can fight back?!?!?

Pretty much could fight back before,maybe you need to play more..?

That statement “l2p” should be applied before you even posted.

there is no mch to learn when you only need to press #2 on gs and f1 to kill

Youkay.5294:

When thieves could do a 100-0 burst from stealth everyone, including mesmers, complained and thieves said it is a L2P issue.

That’s not the actual “hard counter” complaint. The “hard counter” complaint was, more or less, based on the idea that a thief could burst, and fail to kill her target, and disrupting the burst would nearly always cost the mesmer more resources than the thief, leading to a pretty easy win through a second quick burst or just general attrition (those autos hit kitten a squisy). This is distinct from “omg instagib” because, in fact, you often do get a chance to fight back — the claim (back then) was just that it was almost always a losing battle.

N.B. This was the result of both a limited mesmer meta and the prevalence of evade-spam thief builds (“AcroTrickery” was the name, IIRC?).

I really hate facing mesmers in spvp, because targeting is kind okittenward in gw2 to begin with & the there is this class that keeps going into stealth while spawns two dozen clones, it’s just not fun to play against.

There always been thieves who said it was l2p while other said it is op like mesmers are torned today,and history showed us that thieves got nerfed in the end so I suspect mesmers will too eventually.

Sandrox.9524:

There always been thieves who said it was l2p while other said it is op like mesmers are torned today,and history showed us that thieves got nerfed in the end so I suspect mesmers will too eventually.

Sandrox i think u got no idea what u are talking about.

You got 0% understanding of all professions.

Since the discussion in this thread is no longer constructive this thread is now closed.