Guild Wars 2

EvilSardine.9635:

Because mesmers are basically the best profession in the game and require barely any skill to play. I’m a beginner mesmer player and I BARELY have to try and I will win every duel or stalemate it. It’s so easy. Even my wife can’t be killed on her mesmer after she copy pasted my build and it was her first time using it.

Last night my roaming guild ran our usual professions but found it tough because we kept being zerged down. We swapped to a 3 mesmer comp and were unstoppable. I wasn’t worried one bit when I was in a fight. Nothing could pin me down and I can disengage anything I wanted. I can troll around the enemy keeps and spawns and they can’t do a thing. Duels were trivial. I do massive damage and have so much stealth and invulns it’s insane.

There’s no point in running anything else but mesmers at the moment.

I’m curious as to what build, armor, and food you were running? That way I can try this all encompassing build.
Also dueling in WvW will generally always go in a Mesmers favor since we tend be be fantastic duelist. So you can’t so OP on that.

denis.9487:

DHawk.2687:

EvilSardine.9635:

Because mesmers are basically the best profession in the game and require barely any skill to play. I’m a beginner mesmer player and I BARELY have to try and I will win every duel or stalemate it. It’s so easy. Even my wife can’t be killed on her mesmer after she copy pasted my build and it was her first time using it.

Last night my roaming guild ran our usual professions but found it tough because we kept being zerged down. We swapped to a 3 mesmer comp and were unstoppable. I wasn’t worried one bit when I was in a fight. Nothing could pin me down and I can disengage anything I wanted. I can troll around the enemy keeps and spawns and they can’t do a thing. Duels were trivial. I do massive damage and have so much stealth and invulns it’s insane.

There’s no point in running anything else but mesmers at the moment.

Sadly that’s true
I play a d/d thief (now if anyone comes and wants to tell me thief is op I’ll just leave the forum laughing) and the ONLY way i could manage to kill a PU mesmer was because first of all, he was power based, so i could stealth of his clones to keep me invisible,
but the most important thing was that i put him under constant presure, giving home no time to think or prepare and always on the run, if i had done one mistake, one fail backstab or being revealed to long he would have jsut onehittet me (me having 21k health)
it is almost impossible to beat the PU mesmer atm, since he has an almost limitless amount of counters to every situation.
I don’t want to badmouth the mesmer, pre patch I’d always say gg or nice if a shatter mesmer killed me, because i knew it was hard and that player must have skills on the mesmer, but now, it’s honestly just pathetic, as some on this thread have said, a total noob wins almost every fight without any understanding of the actual mechanics, it’s just pure faceroll…

Again wonderful Mesmer is hard to duel. Again not balanced around dueling.

not balanced around dueling-yet insta jib everyone in wvw even in mid-zerg.yeah lets make warrior rifle #1 skill killshot+quickness w/o use of adrenalin and say yep its ok gw2 is not balanced around dueling.

Sandrox.9524:

denis.9487:

DHawk.2687:

EvilSardine.9635:

Because mesmers are basically the best profession in the game and require barely any skill to play. I’m a beginner mesmer player and I BARELY have to try and I will win every duel or stalemate it. It’s so easy. Even my wife can’t be killed on her mesmer after she copy pasted my build and it was her first time using it.

Last night my roaming guild ran our usual professions but found it tough because we kept being zerged down. We swapped to a 3 mesmer comp and were unstoppable. I wasn’t worried one bit when I was in a fight. Nothing could pin me down and I can disengage anything I wanted. I can troll around the enemy keeps and spawns and they can’t do a thing. Duels were trivial. I do massive damage and have so much stealth and invulns it’s insane.

There’s no point in running anything else but mesmers at the moment.

Sadly that’s true
I play a d/d thief (now if anyone comes and wants to tell me thief is op I’ll just leave the forum laughing) and the ONLY way i could manage to kill a PU mesmer was because first of all, he was power based, so i could stealth of his clones to keep me invisible,
but the most important thing was that i put him under constant presure, giving home no time to think or prepare and always on the run, if i had done one mistake, one fail backstab or being revealed to long he would have jsut onehittet me (me having 21k health)
it is almost impossible to beat the PU mesmer atm, since he has an almost limitless amount of counters to every situation.
I don’t want to badmouth the mesmer, pre patch I’d always say gg or nice if a shatter mesmer killed me, because i knew it was hard and that player must have skills on the mesmer, but now, it’s honestly just pathetic, as some on this thread have said, a total noob wins almost every fight without any understanding of the actual mechanics, it’s just pure faceroll…

Again wonderful Mesmer is hard to duel. Again not balanced around dueling.

not balanced around dueling-yet insta jib everyone in wvw even in mid-zerg.yeah lets make warrior rifle #1 skill killshot+quickness w/o use of adrenalin and say yep its ok gw2 is not balanced around dueling.

Wow so one Mesmer instagibbed an entire zerg? I’m impressed! There again the hyperbole is real here

Sandrox.9524:

not balanced around dueling-yet insta jib everyone in wvw even in mid-zerg.yeah lets make warrior rifle #1 skill killshot+quickness w/o use of adrenalin and say yep its ok gw2 is not balanced around dueling.

…

You do know that the real mesmer burst is melee range, right?

If a full-glass mesmer is diving into your zerg like that, it’s because you’re all about fifteen seconds away from being completely routed. (I’ve done that, pre-patch. It’s really fun but you’re really just profiting off your enemy being really, really strung-out and confused already.)

The 1200-range greatsword 4-2-3 burst is much easier to avoid and doesn’t do a full health bar’s worth of damage.

ASP.8093:

Sandrox.9524:

not balanced around dueling-yet insta jib everyone in wvw even in mid-zerg.yeah lets make warrior rifle #1 skill killshot+quickness w/o use of adrenalin and say yep its ok gw2 is not balanced around dueling.

…

You do know that the real mesmer burst is melee range, right?

If a full-glass mesmer is diving into your zerg like that, it’s because you’re all about fifteen seconds away from being completely routed. (I’ve done that, pre-patch. It’s really fun but you’re really just profiting off your enemy being really, really strung-out and confused already.)

The 1200-range greatsword 4-2-3 burst is much easier to avoid and doesn’t do a full health bar’s worth of damage.

Interestingly enough ASP they probably do know that. And realize that once a Mesmer is in melee range of that many people(who should have full buffs, food, swiftness, etc) will be immediately targeted and chased down. Difference is… It doesn’t fit their argument that Mesmers are gods and can do all this stuff that other classes can’t so they just chose to ignore obvious facts.

wow guys you should see how mesmer blink on squishy in a zerg down him and just run away with stealth….really easy….havnt said they took down a zerg,I said they can insta gib somone in a movign zerg so easy and already seen it and done it.

And I know mesmer burst in melee range cause of the gs bounce and self shatter.The point was and still is that mesmer can do serious trouble to anyone with no skill very easily.

denis.9487:

Mesmer won some duels surprising lol. Glad you made one and won some duels. Duels are not cause for nerfing. Also Mesmer has improved but if you would have taken a ele/guard the results would have been even better for helping your party. Mesmer has burst but far from those other classes healing condition removal stability sharing on top of damage.

Won some duels? We’re winning every even fight we get into. If it for some reason doesn’t go our way we just stealth, regroup, and (our 5 mesmers can get 50 seconds of stealth just from using the elite and not counting utilities or torch) There’s no point in running a guardian because every mesmer in the party can invis for a very long time (especially when running torch) and recover from anything. I don’t need protection because I’ve got blurred frenzy, distortion, blink, torch invis, decoy, mass invis. I don’t need heals because when traited the mantra heals/clears are OP and broken in my opinion.

It’s kittened. I don’t bother playing any other class because if I want to not die ever, then I just run mesmer.

EvilSardine.9635:

denis.9487:

Mesmer won some duels surprising lol. Glad you made one and won some duels. Duels are not cause for nerfing. Also Mesmer has improved but if you would have taken a ele/guard the results would have been even better for helping your party. Mesmer has burst but far from those other classes healing condition removal stability sharing on top of damage.

Won some duels? We’re winning every even fight we get into. If it for some reason doesn’t go our way we just stealth, regroup, and (our 5 mesmers can get 50 seconds of stealth just from using the elite and not counting utilities or torch) There’s no point in running a guardian because every mesmer in the party can invis for a very long time (especially when running torch) and recover from anything. I don’t need protection because I’ve got blurred frenzy, distortion, blink, torch invis, decoy, mass invis. I don’t need heals because when traited the mantra heals/clears are OP and broken in my opinion.

It’s kittened. I don’t bother playing any other class because if I want to not die ever, then I just run mesmer.

Um. You realise you need to take camps right? Just fighting is not really the point. You are a fly on the wall to the score. The easiest way to real with PU it just to ignore it. Also I doubt you won all fights.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Um. You realise you need to take camps right? Just fighting is not really the point. You are a fly on the wall to the score. The easiest way to real with PU it just to ignore it. Also I doubt you won all fights.

Also stealth disruptor traps. Should really see them coming into play over the next week.

I’ve fought a lot of mesmers in zergs, they’re terrible, they’re one trick ponies that rely on stealthing and running away as soon as you focus them. This gets them out of the fight and lets you then focus on the heavies, when they die it’s easy to clear up the mesmers.

Well, that’s if they survive, the ones on my current match up take 2s to even react to the iZerker whirling at them, by that time it’s too late as they run full zerk and go pop.

apharma.3741:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Um. You realise you need to take camps right? Just fighting is not really the point. You are a fly on the wall to the score. The easiest way to real with PU it just to ignore it. Also I doubt you won all fights.

Also stealth disruptor traps. Should really see them coming into play over the next week.

I’ve fought a lot of mesmers in zergs, they’re terrible, they’re one trick ponies that rely on stealthing and running away as soon as you focus them. This gets them out of the fight and lets you then focus on the heavies, when they die it’s easy to clear up the mesmers.

Well, that’s if they survive, the ones on my current match up take 2s to even react to the iZerker whirling at them, by that time it’s too late as they run full zerk and go pop.

Honestly, if you need to buy stuff like stealth disruptor traps to even have a chance you know something has to be wrong.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

apharma.3741:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Um. You realise you need to take camps right? Just fighting is not really the point. You are a fly on the wall to the score. The easiest way to real with PU it just to ignore it. Also I doubt you won all fights.

Also stealth disruptor traps. Should really see them coming into play over the next week.

I’ve fought a lot of mesmers in zergs, they’re terrible, they’re one trick ponies that rely on stealthing and running away as soon as you focus them. This gets them out of the fight and lets you then focus on the heavies, when they die it’s easy to clear up the mesmers.

Well, that’s if they survive, the ones on my current match up take 2s to even react to the iZerker whirling at them, by that time it’s too late as they run full zerk and go pop.

Honestly, if you need to buy stuff like stealth disruptor traps to even have a chance you know something has to be wrong.

So like the last 2+ years with thieves right?

My favourite are those P/D thieves that can solo the lord in dire gear and you have to spend 15mins trying to hunt down without stealth disruptor.

Probably because when you’re dueling or roaming in WvW, there’s no penalty for stealthing and just running till you get out of combat regeneration. There never was and multiple classes were capable of leaving combat either with stealth, mobility skills or both. This is nothing new.

Calling mesmers god tier and skill-less because you can win a duel or a small group fight in WvW means literally nothing. D/D or D/P thieves in WvW play exactly the same way. You switch between two modes, damage focus and defense focus. When you aren’t in danger you just focus on damage, when you are, you hop into stealth for as long as you need until you have your cds and hp back. Its already been stated a million and one times why this isn’t a viable strategy anywhere but WvW roaming.

While I know that obviously not everyone in favor or nerfing mesmer thinks like this, posts like those tend to beat the logical thinkers into submission just by sheer numbers. There are a few things I’d like to see changed , nerfed, removed, fixed, whatever you wanna call it across almost all classes. Unfortunately, those posts usually get buried under a sea of WvW roamers and raging people with a vendetta against certain classes.

apharma.3741:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

apharma.3741:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Um. You realise you need to take camps right? Just fighting is not really the point. You are a fly on the wall to the score. The easiest way to real with PU it just to ignore it. Also I doubt you won all fights.

Also stealth disruptor traps. Should really see them coming into play over the next week.

I’ve fought a lot of mesmers in zergs, they’re terrible, they’re one trick ponies that rely on stealthing and running away as soon as you focus them. This gets them out of the fight and lets you then focus on the heavies, when they die it’s easy to clear up the mesmers.

Well, that’s if they survive, the ones on my current match up take 2s to even react to the iZerker whirling at them, by that time it’s too late as they run full zerk and go pop.

Honestly, if you need to buy stuff like stealth disruptor traps to even have a chance you know something has to be wrong.

So like the last 2+ years with thieves right?

My favourite are those P/D thieves that can solo the lord in dire gear and you have to spend 15mins trying to hunt down without stealth disruptor.

FYI, I’ve always said the same about thieves sthealth. Always. Some here operate under the very false assumption that ppl who now vent on mesmers never did vs thieves. You couldn’t be more wrong.

That ‘but it always existed with thieves’ rethoric to try and avoid the issue is ridiculous and fallacious.

I’m glad to read some mesmers that are able to acknowledge the problem tho.

Prolly said it 100x if the damage is adjusted for all by the stat transfer or vitality and toughness brought up then maybe stealth kills would either go away or at least provide counter play. Why I’m in the camp of fix stat across all toons before nerfing classes.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

FYI, I’ve always said the same about thieves sthealth. Always. Some here operate under the very false assumption that ppl who now vent on mesmers never did vs thieves. You couldn’t be more wrong.

That ‘but it always existed with thieves’ rethoric to try and avoid the issue is ridiculous and fallacious.

I’m glad to read some mesmers that are able to acknowledge the problem tho.

I already said it to you in the PU thread I believe but I’ll say it again. The problem is Anet added stealth but forgot the crucial thing that makes it balanced in other games. A way to force someone out of stealth.

Make ranger F2 apply reveal to enemies in 600 range.
Trait shouts to do AoE reveal for warriors (or just add it to fear me)
Allow necros to “see” stealthed players while in DS with the closer to death trait.

Many things can be done, they just aren’t atm.

apharma.3741:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

FYI, I’ve always said the same about thieves sthealth. Always. Some here operate under the very false assumption that ppl who now vent on mesmers never did vs thieves. You couldn’t be more wrong.

That ‘but it always existed with thieves’ rethoric to try and avoid the issue is ridiculous and fallacious.

I’m glad to read some mesmers that are able to acknowledge the problem tho.

I already said it to you in the PU thread I believe but I’ll say it again. The problem is Anet added stealth but forgot the crucial thing that makes it balanced in other games. A way to force someone out of stealth.

Make ranger F2 apply reveal to enemies in 600 range.
Trait shouts to do AoE reveal for warriors (or just add it to fear me)
Allow necros to “see” stealthed players while in DS with the closer to death trait.

Many things can be done, they just aren’t atm.

If Mesmer and thief only survive by stealth then allowing so much reveal would destroy the class.

apharma.3741:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

FYI, I’ve always said the same about thieves sthealth. Always. Some here operate under the very false assumption that ppl who now vent on mesmers never did vs thieves. You couldn’t be more wrong.

That ‘but it always existed with thieves’ rethoric to try and avoid the issue is ridiculous and fallacious.

I’m glad to read some mesmers that are able to acknowledge the problem tho.

I already said it to you in the PU thread I believe but I’ll say it again. The problem is Anet added stealth but forgot the crucial thing that makes it balanced in other games. A way to force someone out of stealth.

Make ranger F2 apply reveal to enemies in 600 range.
Trait shouts to do AoE reveal for warriors (or just add it to fear me)
Allow necros to “see” stealthed players while in DS with the closer to death trait.

Many things can be done, they just aren’t atm.

More revealed skills/traits would finally add in some counterplay to the obviously OP stealth mechanic.

While I agree reveal should be more common, giving out too much of it could invalidate entire utility slots, elite skills, traits or in thief’s case, an entire trait line.

One thing that I thought could be an interesting way to make reveal more prevalent but still maintain the usefulness of stealth and stealth based traits is change most reveal applicators to be AoE based so they are easier to land and give most classes that don’t have access to stealth access to reveal(maybe even give classes with stealth access to reveal, but make it trait based and in competition with the strong stealth traits so you can’t have both). To balance this drastic overhaul, change the way revealed(applied by skills/traits only) works. Players that have been revealed by another player can be seen by the player that revealed them, but the stealth effect remains, so that traits and skills reliant on stealth aren’t rendered useless by long reveal uptime but also so that long duration stealth doesn’t necessarily mean a free opener or escape. Reveal applied by dealing damage while in stealth would remain unchanged. Thoughts?

Just an example to clarify. Say you have a PU mesmer who uses Mass Invis. In response a ranger reveals the mesmer as they’re casting with a sizable AoE skill. This applies reveal to the mesmer so that the ranger can see and target the mesmer but the ranger’s teammates cannot. The mesmer does not lose the benefits of PU and continues to gain boons every second until either the stealth duration ends or the mesmer attacks and breaks the stealth themselves with self-inflicted reveal.

Could even open it up and get a new boon. Something like “True Sight”. While under the effects of True Sight, you can see faint outlines of stealthed enemies and enemy traps. You cannot target stealthed targets, but you can clearly see them and their animations.

People hate what they don’t understand.

apharma.3741:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

FYI, I’ve always said the same about thieves sthealth. Always. Some here operate under the very false assumption that ppl who now vent on mesmers never did vs thieves. You couldn’t be more wrong.

That ‘but it always existed with thieves’ rethoric to try and avoid the issue is ridiculous and fallacious.

I’m glad to read some mesmers that are able to acknowledge the problem tho.

I already said it to you in the PU thread I believe but I’ll say it again. The problem is Anet added stealth but forgot the crucial thing that makes it balanced in other games. A way to force someone out of stealth.

Make ranger F2 apply reveal to enemies in 600 range.
Trait shouts to do AoE reveal for warriors (or just add it to fear me)
Allow necros to “see” stealthed players while in DS with the closer to death trait.

Many things can be done, they just aren’t atm.

Can I have a refund on my thief’s class mechanic of stealth attacks, then? I happen to like being able to burst or control opponents at the rate every other profession can.

I mean really, what is a thief without Backstab, Tactical Strike, Sneak Attack, or Surprise Shot? Pretty useless outside of D/P meta-boring blindspam/Air+fire procs as all that’s really left is crappy control-less S/D acro 3spam (gutted with the 6/23 change), P/P (laughably bad except in duels), and S/P (laughably bad in general).

The mesmer right now has too much stealth. Thief got its stealth nerfed on 6/23 by the removal of quite a few stealth-build-supporting traits like Infusion. All stealth bonuses are applied after 3 seconds instead of on cast. Permanent stealth is now impossible and was a design decision purposely done and announced beforehand by ANet.

I have no trouble with nerfing stealth builds. I don’t really use the mechanic much and think that a lot of high-stealth uptime builds re fairly cheesy on principle. The thing is that you can’t just ask for more revealed mechanic use at this point to offset the obvious monster that is PU without completely removing the thief’s purpose in most combat situations per requirements of its class mechanic.

It’d be like asking for all classes to gain abilities that make summoned allies (minions, pets, clones, spirit weapons, rune effects) deal 0 damage because of some crazy overpowered summon build – it would largely nullifiy the mesmer as a class and its class mechanic due to the problem existing entirely on something else that was simply too strong.

I understand mesmers needed some boosts, but giving it the most access to stealth (yes, more than thief currently has) in the game was not the proper way to really do this. Yes, stealth isn’t very effective in sPvP as a format due to the conquest mode’s design, but the mesmer currently just offers a little bit too much in the department of being able to safely move around the map and +1 with extreme ease and very little risk when building into it.

Mesmers, like thieves, regarded their low-standing in sPvP and used to be pretty prideful of skill-based gameplay. The rest of the player-base after seeing the buffs to the class is coming to this class and finding that skill demand completely lacking when setup potential like PU is taking away from that “get good or die” type of play and the bolstered damage is making executions easier and safer than the majority of the rest of the classes.

I don’t think anyone’s attesting to the mesmer being better. It’s just that the mesmer right now is on the same skill-requirement-tier as hammer warrior (and easier than glass longbow ranger with fewer counters – yea, I just said that) with still all of the high-reward plays it offers and then some, while out-shining some other builds/classes like burst thief in quite literally every possible way.

It’s not “fair” that mesmers now have the spotlight due to their weakness previously. “Fair” would be every class being balanced and nobody feeling that way. At the moment, the tables have just been flipped over 180 degrees and not straightened out.

So as far as “hating” the mesmers goes, per the OP, it’s not so much that but frustration as to how currently the mesmer is a strictly better version of some other classes while taking the niche roles some of these other classes and builds once had.

I think people are running away with the idea I had too much. I’m not saying make everything in the game apply AoE reveal. I’m saying there should be a way to have it if you go for it.

So for ranger F2 application add it to a trait so you have to pick it to do it. Make it a choice but add it to current functions so it’s not like sick em which almost no-one uses.

In such an environment thief wouldn’t have nor needed to have been nerfed so hard DecieverX. That is why thief has been nerfed and nerfed over and over again. It’s not hard to see, no pun intended, that thieves keep getting hate and nerfed because of stealth. Now Mesmer has it and the same thing is happening.

Yes you can have some of those heavy handed over nerfs in the last patch changed, I feel some of it was a bit too much. You can still permanent stealth as a thief or at least match a mesmer with similar investment if not less.

So please, stop twisting my words and running off with them. I’m not saying it because of PU, I’m saying it because thief keeps getting punished for Anets idiocy regarding stealth which I love using on both Mesmer and thief.

Edit: Just went in game and tested my thief out, you can not only stay in stealth permanently with choosing the SA line but you can keep yourself and 4 others in stealth the whole time out of combat. In combat you’re more than capable of camping stealth with only SR and blinding powder with D/P.

Before you say, no I didn’t choose reduced cool down on deception skills, I used shadows embrace as I don’t like to be misleading. If you say you wouldn’t use them to just sit in stealth, well guess what? No decent Mesmer would do that with MI, torch, decoy and veil either, now would they use veil either.

So six pages in and people still come to complain about Mesmer. I wonder… Do they even bother to read the comments to see the suggestions that have been put forth that would bring the underlying issues in line? Or just complain because forum warriors

It’s the forum warriors one.

Generally, the instinctive response to being beaten by a class that recently received buffs is to run to the forums and scream for those buffs to be removed (and extra nerfs to be applied on top of it).

As Mesmers, I think we’re also instinctively defensive about it, because we spent so long being repeatedly nerfed, not to mention being told we’re useless for anything but Portals in PvE. We’re finally in a good place and now the prevailing community opinion seems to be that we should be nerfed back into uselessness. Could a few things be adjusted regarding stealth? Yes. Absolutely. But I hope whatever nerfs come are even-handed and don’t completely cripple the class again.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

apharma.3741:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

apharma.3741:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Um. You realise you need to take camps right? Just fighting is not really the point. You are a fly on the wall to the score. The easiest way to real with PU it just to ignore it. Also I doubt you won all fights.

Also stealth disruptor traps. Should really see them coming into play over the next week.

I’ve fought a lot of mesmers in zergs, they’re terrible, they’re one trick ponies that rely on stealthing and running away as soon as you focus them. This gets them out of the fight and lets you then focus on the heavies, when they die it’s easy to clear up the mesmers.

Well, that’s if they survive, the ones on my current match up take 2s to even react to the iZerker whirling at them, by that time it’s too late as they run full zerk and go pop.

Honestly, if you need to buy stuff like stealth disruptor traps to even have a chance you know something has to be wrong.

So like the last 2+ years with thieves right?

My favourite are those P/D thieves that can solo the lord in dire gear and you have to spend 15mins trying to hunt down without stealth disruptor.

FYI, I’ve always said the same about thieves sthealth. Always. Some here operate under the very false assumption that ppl who now vent on mesmers never did vs thieves. You couldn’t be more wrong.

That ‘but it always existed with thieves’ rethoric to try and avoid the issue is ridiculous and fallacious.

I’m glad to read some mesmers that are able to acknowledge the problem tho.

SO….

are you going to complain about warriors,engies, and any rangers too because they can run away from fights also.

Or is it you just don’t like stealth.

DeceiverX.8361:

I mean really, what is a thief without Backstab, Tactical Strike, Sneak Attack, or Surprise Shot? Pretty useless outside of D/P meta-boring blindspam/Air+fire procs as all that’s really left is crappy control-less S/D acro 3spam (gutted with the 6/23 change), P/P (laughably bad except in duels), and S/P (laughably bad in general).

The mesmer right now has too much stealth. Thief got its stealth nerfed on 6/23 by the removal of quite a few stealth-build-supporting traits like Infusion. .

Two things.

What new nerf that wasn’t reported is now keeping thieves from stealthing more often than any other class?
None?
No, being a thief doesn’t mean free and easy kill anymore, sorry.
You need to relearn how to fight every class because you don’t have it easy anymore.
Saying that mesmer’s have too much stealth compared to a thief who spends next to nothing to get into stealth is laughable.
Especially when you can stealth with no CD’s at will.

Secondly,
You need to start thinking outside the box instead of relying on the SA crutch.

Mesmers, like thieves, regarded their low-standing in sPvP and used to be pretty prideful of skill-based gameplay.

Sorry, What?!
Thieves were part of the meta for spvp for basically 2 years.
Their access to stealth and mobility will insure that they are kept in the meta until something changes where mobility and/or stealth means nothing.

What game have you been playing where a team decided a mesmer and thief were on the same bottom scale level?

I don’t think anyone’s attesting to the mesmer being better. It’s just that the mesmer right now is on the same skill-requirement-tier as hammer warrior (and easier than glass longbow ranger with fewer counters – yea, I just said that) with still all of the high-reward plays it offers and then some, while out-shining some other builds/classes like burst thief in quite literally every possible way.

You sound a bit salty, at this point.

So as far as “hating” the mesmers goes, per the OP, it’s not so much that but frustration as to how currently the mesmer is a strictly better version of some other classes while taking the niche roles some of these other classes and builds once had.

Wait, you mean the niche role that only theif has been able to play since..I don’t know
Forever.
Both a mesmer and a thief are capable of +1ing a fight. Only before the patch thief was the ONLY option for that role.
Now you have 2 classes that can fulfill that role.
I can’t think of any other role that mesmer could offer that another class won’t do better.
Try thinking outside the box as far as thief builds go, you’ll be surprised at the old weaponsets that we have that are viable again.

Lastly, Some nerfs for mesmer have been suggested that I think the majority of the mesmer community can agree on.
Maybe look to those threads and offer some type of constructive post instead of the atrocious bias filled QQ post you just did.

I’ve consistently observed a pattern here in which people who main mesmers identify specific things they think should be nerfed, but as soon as someone who doesn’t identify as maining a mesmer expresses a general complaint (e.g. mesmers are faceroll easy to play, mesmers are op at the moment) or proposes specific changes that may even be less than the changes proposed by mesmers, all the defensive nonsense kicks into high gear. Then, suddenly, mesmers are perfect as is and everyone needs to stop hating and l2p.

Choppy.4183:

I’ve consistently observed a pattern here in which people who main mesmers identify specific things they think should be nerfed, but as soon as someone who doesn’t identify as maining a mesmer expresses a general complaint (e.g. mesmers are faceroll easy to play, mesmers are op at the moment) or proposes specific changes that may even be less than the changes proposed by mesmers, all the defensive nonsense kicks into high gear. Then, suddenly, mesmers are perfect as is and everyone needs to stop hating and l2p.

I have noticed that people who don’t main mesmer propose changes that are worse, or just complain to complain, asking for things that are unreasonable or not offering constructive changes AT ALL, while filling their post with as much hyperbole as possible while also passing it off as a fact.
Without evidence to support said claim.
Then going through the thread telling everyone “defending” the class that they need to play “class A” that is actually the worst class of the original classes we have, to make it seem their claim is even more legitimate ( which i think is insulting to people that have been playing this game and have an IQ larger than 72).

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Some-changes-to-Mesmer-risk-vs-reward
An example of nerfing things just to say they are nerfed.

Choppy.4183:

I’ve consistently observed a pattern here in which people who main mesmers identify specific things they think should be nerfed, but as soon as someone who doesn’t identify as maining a mesmer expresses a general complaint (e.g. mesmers are faceroll easy to play, mesmers are op at the moment) or proposes specific changes that may even be less than the changes proposed by mesmers, all the defensive nonsense kicks into high gear. Then, suddenly, mesmers are perfect as is and everyone needs to stop hating and l2p.

Or maybe we’re sick of listing all the ways to counter such builds to those people who choose not to listen. That and a lot of things go along the lines of “I don’t like it, nerf it” with little thought of the consequences and little to no adult reasoning. That’s without mentioning a lack of thought on what the actual issues are and the wider reaching problems a nerf would create.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/We-re-in-danger-Mesmer-nerf-discussion/first#post5281688

I made some suggestions which would sort out the current issues with mesmers while trying to minimise the impact on other builds and playstyles. I try to reign in the overperforming aspects while retaining the benefit for the more balanced aspects. I also give reasoning for it but I’m happy to rectify what I would do if someone points out a glaring problem.

Unfortunately people that have posted have asked for heavy handed things like “make daze a 1s cast” or “revert PU back to it’s useless state” and, my personal favourite, “delete stealth from the game”. Without thinking what it would do to this class, other skills and traits of this class, other classes and the interaction between classes.

Except I’d already agreed to changes you’re both talking about on other threads right now (PU becomes a 2s buff) PLUS a buff to Veil that you’re not currently asking for.

Yet, the very notion that I was saying PU stealth was too strong was just a warrior troll looking to nerf the class .

The suggestion that mesmers get in front of the Nerfbat by recognizing the problem and making specific proposals was a major point expressed in all mesmer threads I posted in and the warrior one about mesmers.

You’re doing the same thing with these other guys.

Choppy.4183:

Except I’d already agreed to changes you’re both talking about on other threads right now (PU becomes a 2s buff) PLUS a buff to Veil that you’re not currently asking for.

Yet, the very notion that I was saying PU stealth was too strong was just a warrior troll looking to nerf the class .

Sorry, when did you say that?
and when did we respond with a " everything is fine"?

See my post history. It’s all there, and I even recapped the point and this phenomenon of defensiveness a few times in this very thread too.

I didn’t propose a specific change to mesmers except to the stealth buff on PU, and that was well in line with what you’re calling for now.

Things like nerfing the entire stealth mechanic was offered by mesmers while simultaneously portraying my proposed reduction to PU as completely uncalled for.

apharma has used a misguided PvP argument in rejection of a PU stealth nerd more than once, even though he seems fine with +2s now.

Taking a step back allowed me to see the same thing happening with others, so its clearly something beyond anything specific I’ve posted.

Choppy.4183:

See my post history. It’s all there, and I even recapped the point and this phenomenon of defensiveness a few times in this very thread too.

I didn’t propose a specific change to mesmers except to the stealth buff on PU, and that was well in line with what you’re calling for now.

Things like nerfing the entire stealth mechanic was offered by mesmers while simultaneously portraying my proposed reduction to PU as completely uncalled for.

apharma has used a misguided PvP argument in rejection of a PU stealth nerd more than once, even though he seems fine with +2s now.

Taking a step back allowed me to see the same thing happening with others, so its clearly something beyond anything specific I’ve posted.

You started with the “misguided” arguement of agreeing it wasn’t of much benefit in PvP and so should be nerfed because…we need to provide a reason not to nerf it.

Do I need to quote you before you go back and edit it?

For the record I wasn’t meaning just you and I still maintain PU isn’t the problem, it’s the counter play to stealth. Unfortunately I’m also a realist and know people will not stop till it is nerfed despite logical arguements against a nerf.

Incorrect. Someone, you maybe, originally made the point that it didn’t provide a stealth benefit in PvP and so it shouldn’t be nerfed. My response then, and to you more recently, was that the proposition that PU stealth doesn’t matter in PvP pulls PvP out of consideration on whether or not the trait should be nerfed.

Every example I’ve given in support of a nerf has come from small to mid size Wvw, which is applicable in at least 3/4 of Wvw play.

As for me editing posts, try to find an example where I did that anywhere that mattered. Denis called me out on it after I changed a post I’d written to someone else, having to do with changes to warrior mobility, while he was responding to another part of that post, which he’d quoted iirc, and clearly remained unchanged.

I write these posts on a phone. It takes longer. Sue me.

And the point still stands. The most cutting, specific nerfs have been proposed my mesmers. When someone else expresses something less deep or specific, wagons circle.

I feel like this discussion is way more personal than it needs to be. :/

ASP.8093:

I feel like this discussion is way more personal than it needs to be. :/

Yea…
Hommie is talking about his post history like we attacked his family and dishonored his land.

Choppy.4183:

Incorrect. Someone, you maybe, originally made the point that it didn’t provide a stealth benefit in PvP and so it shouldn’t be nerfed. My response then, and to you more recently, was that the proposition that PU stealth doesn’t matter in PvP pulls PvP out of consideration on whether or not the trait should be nerfed.

Every example I’ve given in support of a nerf has come from small to mid size Wvw, which is applicable in at least 3/4 of Wvw play.

You can arbitrarily say it doesn’t matter but the fact is most balance changes come from PvP. That is the primary mode they balance around so if something is not a problem there and constitutes a minor problem in WvW (where counters exist even if you don’t want to bother with them) then you can’t simply assume a nerf should happen and ask for reasons not to nerf it.

We also said that you can’t balance over WvW as it is designed to be imbalanced. There is massive stat inflation, there’s special items, traps and weapons there along with a completely different way of playing. It is also not like PvP in design of maps or persistence and scoring.

Which brings me back to the “sick of repeating it all” aspect.

As for your editing of posts, I saw one of your posts and it looked a lot different a minute later. I guess if posting from a phone that could explain it with predictive texting, especially if it’s Apple and their aggressive replacing of words.

ASP.8093:

I feel like this discussion is way more personal than it needs to be. :/

Thread is done, TBH. Ought to get locked by a mod, it’s not serving any purpose at this point. We have multiple other threads running on similar topics that are actually productive.

omfg harry potter book had less text than in this thread

Choppy.4183:

As for me editing posts, try to find an example where I did that anywhere that mattered. Denis called me out on it after I changed a post I’d written to someone else, having to do with changes to warrior mobility, while he was responding to another part of that post, which he’d quoted iirc, and clearly remained unchanged.

I write these posts on a phone. It takes longer. Sue me.

And the point still stands. The most cutting, specific nerfs have been proposed my mesmers. When someone else expresses something less deep or specific, wagons circle.

I called you out because you use words like “buddy” “sweetheart” accused me of being in the same boat as engineers lobbying for grenade barrage. When I do not agree with your logic nor your opinion.

Sandrox.9524:

omfg harry potter book had less text than in this thread

Yurr a mesmer Harry!

Then you exit posts to remove the borderline words. You are hostile in some of your posts when someone doesn’t agree with you. Also nerfing pu because your experience with it, it worked! Is not a reason to nerf a defensive trait. The more time moves on the more players have adapted, better fights from all classes.

One thing I would change is make Blinding Dissipation A GM then DE a Master. So BD competes with HM, so you can trait for defense and offense at the same time.

Just my 2 cents.

Let me share my experience with pu. It is an awesome annoying trait in open field combat. It lets the Mesmer do stealth burst mitigate damage reposition and run away. I have fought all classes in open field and “my” experience is I win more than I lose. Now here is the important part. I fight over something that matters. That camp that tower that circle in pvp, guess what happens. Mesmer cannot stay in the open with or without pu. Our class needs the stealth to do all those things I mentioned earlier, and I always lose the circle. So if open field combat meant anything besides who has the biggest e-pen then I might consider nerfing pu.

StickerHappy.8052:

One thing I would change is make Blinding Dissipation A GM then DE a Master. So BD competes with HM, so you can trait for defense and offense at the same time.

Just my 2 cents.

ooooohh I like this.

Solori.6025:

StickerHappy.8052:

One thing I would change is make Blinding Dissipation A GM then DE a Master. So BD competes with HM, so you can trait for defense and offense at the same time.

Just my 2 cents.

ooooohh I like this.

What’d be worse, DE with BD as today or DE with HM and even more carnage? Probably evens out honestly, but I agree BD doesn’t have much to compete with in it’s current slot (pvp wise).

StickerHappy.8052:

One thing I would change is make Blinding Dissipation A GM then DE a Master. So BD competes with HM, so you can trait for defense and offense at the same time.

Just my 2 cents.

Having DE & HM would be a nightmare. Also, making DE compete with sword trait and the reflects would be a nerf for PvE/WvW builds. It’s already competitive enough with BD being there. Oh wow look at me being considerate of other game types and all! #PatsSelfOnBack

MailMail.6534:

StickerHappy.8052:

One thing I would change is make Blinding Dissipation A GM then DE a Master. So BD competes with HM, so you can trait for defense and offense at the same time.

Just my 2 cents.

Having DE & HM would be a nightmare. Also, making DE compete with sword trait and the reflects would be a nerf for PvE/WvW builds. It’s already competitive enough with BD being there. Oh wow look at me being considerate of other game types and all! #PatsSelfOnBack

Well..The reflects can be gotten from chaos, I do agree that it would compete heavily with the sword trait.
But..
I like bedlam.
I think DE and HM would be absolutely hilariously chaotic.

Sandrox.9524:

omfg harry potter book had less text than in this thread

lol!

Solori.6025:

MailMail.6534:

StickerHappy.8052:

One thing I would change is make Blinding Dissipation A GM then DE a Master. So BD competes with HM, so you can trait for defense and offense at the same time.

Just my 2 cents.

Having DE & HM would be a nightmare. Also, making DE compete with sword trait and the reflects would be a nerf for PvE/WvW builds. It’s already competitive enough with BD being there. Oh wow look at me being considerate of other game types and all! #PatsSelfOnBack

Well..The reflects can be gotten from chaos, I do agree that it would compete heavily with the sword trait.
But..
I like bedlam.
I think DE and HM would be absolutely hilariously chaotic.

I’m no PvEr, but I don’t imagine Manipulations are really useful there outside of possibly Blink.

DE & HM would cause everyone to unplug their computers.