Guild Wars 2

CandyHearts.6025:

Scrimschaw.5784:

CandyHearts.6025:

Okay Seriously. I didn’t say anything but that other people were confused as to comparing apples and oranges (Boons to Heals. Go back and read). I’m not reading this book long post you made no offense. You keep reading WAYYY too far into everything I say.

Explaining how timed aegis is better than heals when I said they are NOT the same thing. Have nothing to do with Druid. If you guys wanna go carry on to compare Guard bunker to how Druid bunker could possibly work go do that in a proper thread.

I’m really not going to spend any more time on you because I can tell you’re just looking to argue and prove points. Have fun with that. You’re explaining like I said the total opposite when I said nothing.

Also proper paragraph structure is a thing.

And while you can go on to say it’s a worthy topic I would like you to take a gander at the subject heading. Does it say SPVP? It says Healing Power Scaling. You’re welcome.

So back on subject, if this thread will ever allow it. Right? xD

A TL;DR for you, then. I am too used to writing scientific papers, rather than responses on forums—my apologies for this.

Defensive boons and healing fall under the same banner in the GW2 trinity: support. They both mitigate damage. This is not “apples to oranges”, this is Gala to Granny Smith. Base Ranger has access to boons; therefore Druid has access to boons. Unlike boons, healing cannot be applied proactively. Druids fulfill a purely reactive role through healing—they need to get hit, and then they need to heal. I would prefer to see Druid support be multifaceted and have proactive options that synergize with base Ranger’s support through boons—especially now that Druid’s base healing is reduced.

Healing Power scaling affects all game modes, including sPvP. But ultimately, sPvP arguments can be applied to challenging PvE content as well.

All right. I can appreciate that you reword it. But this still doesn’t really fit what I am trying to say. I wouldn’t argue with what you said.

Let me explain my post/s:

I never said anything about how Druid shouldn’t have boons. But what I said was in the defense of Guardian not having to give up damage to be support vs Druid having to give up their dps to support. -This- is the Apples and Oranges I speak of. Guardian can apply boons with no healing power added. Druid can apply boons without any healing power added. What Druid can NOT do: is Heal well without Healing Power. Which is the same for Guardian. This is what I speak of. Nothing else.

I definitely get you now, thanks for clarifying. My greatest concern is, that as of now, Druid’s main support comes through healing—which you now need to spec into to see the full effect. If Druid got more boon support and better-scaling DPS (physical and/or condition), it wouldn’t be so reliant on Healing Power for effectiveness, and I would be much more comfortable with how it fits into the game as a support or hybrid class. It would be great if Irenio would say what he’s reducing the base heals to, but until then, we’re left with speculation. If we can’t offer DPS, boon support, tanking, reliable condition cleansing, or unique abilities (like boon stripping/conversion)…we are left in a very, very niche spot that will be outshone by other support classes, especially in non-raid content. I’m really hoping we will see some tune-ups to Druid skills (and a couple traits) to address this.

I also realize that Irenio may be resistant to adding boons on Druid because raid bosses will likely have boon stripping/corruption. I’m hoping boon corruption will be limited, since that will definitely trash a lot of other support classes and may make Druid 100% required for raids—an outcome I definitely DON’T want to see.

Aomine.5012:

CandyHearts.6025:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

CandyHearts.6025:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

CandyHearts.6025:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

AgitatedFox.5287:

Aomine.5012:

AgitatedFox.5287:

Aomine.5012:

AgitatedFox.5287:

Aomine.5012:

AgitatedFox.5287:

a nerf to base healing is necessary. Whilst I agree the Ranger, now, should be a hybrid class (either going full DPS or going Healing), in my eyes you shouldn’t be able to do both at the same time. Nerf base healing, increase how much healing you do if you gear for that than what it was at BWE3 if you geared for it, and it’s all happy. Unfortunately anet, you HAVE to buff core ranger for this to be a viable payoff. Otherwise you’ve kittened off the Ranger community YET AGAIN.

Point being what do we get when we give up the base healing?

As Druid we do not get any good damage at all!

It’s not like we give-up base healing and go full zerk, and suddenly staff hits as hard as LB. If you just going to nerf healing while leaving the damage subpar even with the best offensive set-up, then this is not hybrid, this is one dimensional crap (spec healing or you’re useless in both healing and dps)

Thats precisely it, no you don’t get mad damage by speccing druid and going with zerker. Thats like saying you want to be the biggest planet but also the smallest at the same time. Druids not gonna be a dps class and you will be a hindrance to your team by going druid with zerker.

Instead, if you want to be DPS, stick with core ranger. You can’t be Druid and have the choice of heavy healing or heavy dps. In other words, you can’t be a hybrid with just one specialisation.

We need to start ignoring that word “elite” thats attached to these specs and Anet should never have called them that in the first place as it makes us feel like thats the next goal of advancing the character. Its not, it’s just another option.

Don’t you understand the word HYBRID means?

Druid cannot be Hybrid post nerf because it’d only shine in heal. Even with best offensive gear, the damage is still subpar. It also has no condition damage whatsoever on everything Druid offers.
The ONLY option you get is spec for more healing, making your damage NON-EXISTENT (DONT use the word subpar, hitting less than1k with staff AA is outright worthless)

There’s nothing Hybrid about it. No damage, no condition, no boons, but only healing.
Druid is MERELY a healer post nerf. You either spec for inferior damage and giving up the whole healing things, or spec for healing to be a great healer and do next to no damage.

Other support classes NEVER have to go through this trade-off and still can keep all their options. (Damage or Condition, pick one) That’s what I called Hybrid.

You’ve hit the nail in the head yet again.

I’m well aware what hybrid means. You don’t seem to understand that what you’re saying is exactly what it is. the druid is NOT a hybrid spec. It’s a healing spec. what gives the Ranger the option TO hybrid is that is has the Druid option to spec into, or not.

Also, you used the word subpar, then told us not to use the word subpar.

I’m seeing a lot of salty Rangers here (I know because I am one) who can’t seem to look beyond the fact that there class is “bad”. Talk to Heimskarl if you think the Ranger is as bad as you lot make it out to be.

Read it again. If you spec for healing on a subpar damage class (Yes, even go full zerk, if you use staff your damage is “subpar”), your damage become “non-existent”. That’s what I meant.

You continue to fail to see my point. We shouldn’t get an Elite spec just for one dimensional use with no other choice but healing. Druid shouldn’t be something that bound to only healing. It should add options to our play-style, not pigeon-hole us into one play-style.

You said you’re able to pick on other specs of ranger to be Hybrid for Druid, but your logic is flawed because without the stats, other ranger specs aren’t going to save your dps. You pick healing, and your damage is nothing, simple as that. There’s nothing hybrid about it. This game is so reliant on stats and Amulets.

Okay again you’ve nailed the bullseye. There’s nothing hybrid about it. Correct. It’s a healing spec. It’s not meant to be a hybrid. (Unless Irenio + devs change their mind)

The ranger however IS hybrid because at its core, it’s DPS orientated. Yes, other ranger specs won’t save your DPS and as I said, the core ranger still needs a lot of work to make the class work as a hybrid (which is what it looks like they’re trying to do).

What I think you’re trying to say is that the Ranger either goes full dps, or full healing, and as such, whilst in play, cannot be a hybrid. The thing is, it appears that anet are trying to avoid just that, because thats what the Elementalist is and everyone cries “OP!”.

Also, why shouldn’t it be one-dimensional? take Rift for example, you have one class that specs into individual, one dimensional roles depending on whats needed of it. This is just something, that the Rangers have declared, shouldn’t be a thing and so therefore must have negativity hurled towards it.

Having this additional option actually OPENS the play of the Ranger. albeit it in an uncreative way (I’m not a massive fan of druid and I believe they could have done it differently, but I’ll put that in a separate post if asked because its off-topic otherwise)

This isn’t Rift. Any other elite spec has multiple build paths; there is no single stat that they need. The same should be true of druid. Forcing healing power on every druid in order for them to be effective is bad design.

That’s a matter of opinion, really.

There are quite a few types of gear that have healing on it. And with the ability to mix and match to get your desired stats it’s all about us choosing to make it a GOOD design for ourselves.

Even if I wanted to grab extra ascended gear when no other profession needs healing power at all (literally any other stat can be useful to every profession, it’s just healing power that’s worthless), just try doing that in PvP.

You’re joking right?

I don’t even wanna continue from here.

You can’t get ideal stat combinations that have healing power in PvP. The amulets for that don’t exist. How is that a joke?

Because “ideal” is what? Meta? lol

Ideal stats depends on what you intend to do. This is why there are Bunker, Burst, etc.

And I see a lot of comparing to Guard who doesn’t have to give up stats? Okay then let’s compare it to Cleric or a Soldier Bunker Guard. Since we’re talking about sustain and not trying to compare apples to oranges. (Boons to Heals).

I think you guys should play a bit longer before you rush to think you know 100%. Give Druid some time and see how it works in “the meta” since that seems to be such a big deal.

Also agree with Shoe, AgitatedFox, and Zev. ^.^

Pardon for my being off subject.

You do not need to be in Cleric to maximize the duration of Protection, upkeep Aegis, grant quickness, invulnerable, upkeep permanent reflection, or anything. That’s why people play zerker Guardian, since none of the Guardian’s selling point requires healing power.

Agreed in those respects. But still their equipment should grant them more toughness and HP over power for sustain. All sustain has a cost in some way or another.

Zev.3407:

you sound like your talking about solo play, not team play, which obviously solo a pure healing build would only be reactive to dps, but as a team its very effective. also druid is about burst healing not slow sustain healing. (thats what ventari is). i do agree with you that healing is reactive compared to defensive boons , but thats not a bad thing when as a team, everyone gets hit.

no one is saying druid can solo fight and win as a bunker. but as a duo(or more) it is a force to be reckoned with.

I think a big problem people are having is trying to force the old meta into the new one, when we dont even know how the new meta will be once everything is done being balanced. Play any game, the meta changes, it wont always be the same thing. some people just cant adapt and cant do as well and complain.

Zev, my biggest worry right now is how easily CAF is spotted and focused down by the other team (like a necromancer in Lich Form, without the health bump). CAF doesn’t have any personal defense. We probably won’t be able to camp it either after CAF generation is tweaked—it’s going to be situational burst healing that currently has higher risk than reward (given the ease of focusing down a Druid in CAF, and a dead druid deals no heals).

Scrimschaw.5784:

CandyHearts.6025:

Scrimschaw.5784:

CandyHearts.6025:

Okay Seriously. I didn’t say anything but that other people were confused as to comparing apples and oranges (Boons to Heals. Go back and read). I’m not reading this book long post you made no offense. You keep reading WAYYY too far into everything I say.

Explaining how timed aegis is better than heals when I said they are NOT the same thing. Have nothing to do with Druid. If you guys wanna go carry on to compare Guard bunker to how Druid bunker could possibly work go do that in a proper thread.

I’m really not going to spend any more time on you because I can tell you’re just looking to argue and prove points. Have fun with that. You’re explaining like I said the total opposite when I said nothing.

Also proper paragraph structure is a thing.

And while you can go on to say it’s a worthy topic I would like you to take a gander at the subject heading. Does it say SPVP? It says Healing Power Scaling. You’re welcome.

So back on subject, if this thread will ever allow it. Right? xD

A TL;DR for you, then. I am too used to writing scientific papers, rather than responses on forums—my apologies for this.

Defensive boons and healing fall under the same banner in the GW2 trinity: support. They both mitigate damage. This is not “apples to oranges”, this is Gala to Granny Smith. Base Ranger has access to boons; therefore Druid has access to boons. Unlike boons, healing cannot be applied proactively. Druids fulfill a purely reactive role through healing—they need to get hit, and then they need to heal. I would prefer to see Druid support be multifaceted and have proactive options that synergize with base Ranger’s support through boons—especially now that Druid’s base healing is reduced.

Healing Power scaling affects all game modes, including sPvP. But ultimately, sPvP arguments can be applied to challenging PvE content as well.

All right. I can appreciate that you reword it. But this still doesn’t really fit what I am trying to say. I wouldn’t argue with what you said.

Let me explain my post/s:

I never said anything about how Druid shouldn’t have boons. But what I said was in the defense of Guardian not having to give up damage to be support vs Druid having to give up their dps to support. -This- is the Apples and Oranges I speak of. Guardian can apply boons with no healing power added. Druid can apply boons without any healing power added. What Druid can NOT do: is Heal well without Healing Power. Which is the same for Guardian. This is what I speak of. Nothing else.

I definitely get you now, thanks for clarifying. My greatest concern is, that as of now, Druid’s main support comes through healing—which you now need to spec into to see the full effect. If Druid got more boon support and better-scaling DPS (physical and/or condition), it wouldn’t be so reliant on Healing Power for effectiveness, and I would be much more comfortable with how it fits into the game as a support or hybrid class. It would be great if Irenio would say what he’s reducing the base heals to, but until then, we’re left with speculation. If we can’t offer DPS, boon support, tanking, reliable condition cleansing, or unique abilities (like boon stripping/conversion)…we are left in a very, very niche spot that will be outshone by other support classes, especially in non-raid content. I’m really hoping we will see some tune-ups to Druid skills (and a couple traits) to address this.

I also realize that Irenio may be resistant to adding boons on Druid because raid bosses will likely have boon stripping/corruption. I’m hoping boon corruption will be limited, since that will definitely trash a lot of other support classes and may make Druid 100% required for raids—an outcome I definitely DON’T want to see.

Sounds like you want druid to do practically everything. It only makes sense that if you want good heals, then you need healing power.

Scrimschaw.5784:

CandyHearts.6025:

Scrimschaw.5784:

CandyHearts.6025:

Okay Seriously. I didn’t say anything but that other people were confused as to comparing apples and oranges (Boons to Heals. Go back and read). I’m not reading this book long post you made no offense. You keep reading WAYYY too far into everything I say.

Explaining how timed aegis is better than heals when I said they are NOT the same thing. Have nothing to do with Druid. If you guys wanna go carry on to compare Guard bunker to how Druid bunker could possibly work go do that in a proper thread.

I’m really not going to spend any more time on you because I can tell you’re just looking to argue and prove points. Have fun with that. You’re explaining like I said the total opposite when I said nothing.

Also proper paragraph structure is a thing.

And while you can go on to say it’s a worthy topic I would like you to take a gander at the subject heading. Does it say SPVP? It says Healing Power Scaling. You’re welcome.

So back on subject, if this thread will ever allow it. Right? xD

A TL;DR for you, then. I am too used to writing scientific papers, rather than responses on forums—my apologies for this.

Defensive boons and healing fall under the same banner in the GW2 trinity: support. They both mitigate damage. This is not “apples to oranges”, this is Gala to Granny Smith. Base Ranger has access to boons; therefore Druid has access to boons. Unlike boons, healing cannot be applied proactively. Druids fulfill a purely reactive role through healing—they need to get hit, and then they need to heal. I would prefer to see Druid support be multifaceted and have proactive options that synergize with base Ranger’s support through boons—especially now that Druid’s base healing is reduced.

Healing Power scaling affects all game modes, including sPvP. But ultimately, sPvP arguments can be applied to challenging PvE content as well.

All right. I can appreciate that you reword it. But this still doesn’t really fit what I am trying to say. I wouldn’t argue with what you said.

Let me explain my post/s:

I never said anything about how Druid shouldn’t have boons. But what I said was in the defense of Guardian not having to give up damage to be support vs Druid having to give up their dps to support. -This- is the Apples and Oranges I speak of. Guardian can apply boons with no healing power added. Druid can apply boons without any healing power added. What Druid can NOT do: is Heal well without Healing Power. Which is the same for Guardian. This is what I speak of. Nothing else.

I definitely get you now, thanks for clarifying. My greatest concern is, that as of now, Druid’s main support comes through healing—which you now need to spec into to see the full effect. If Druid got more boon support and better-scaling DPS (physical and/or condition), it wouldn’t be so reliant on Healing Power for effectiveness, and I would be much more comfortable with how it fits into the game as a support or hybrid class. It would be great if Irenio would say what he’s reducing the base heals to, but until then, we’re left with speculation. If we can’t offer DPS, boon support, tanking, reliable condition cleansing, or unique abilities (like boon stripping/conversion)…we are left in a very, very niche spot that will be outshone by other support classes, especially in non-raid content. I’m really hoping we will see some tune-ups to Druid skills (and a couple traits) to address this.

I also realize that Irenio may be resistant to adding boons on Druid because raid bosses will likely have boon stripping/corruption. I’m hoping boon corruption will be limited, since that will definitely trash a lot of other support classes and may make Druid 100% required for raids—an outcome I definitely DON’T want to see.

Yeahh. . . I need to know Irenio’s plans from here. Though! I’m firm that our best bet would be if he added more condition damage to the staff and CF (This coming from someone who doesn’t even like condi builds for the most part xD). I’d like to see Apothecary’s Armor be a thing. I feel like it would give the best numbers. Red and Green.

More boons would be fantastic though! As long as they don’t step on the toes of other classes and make Druid seem like a “Must have” for sure. I’d like to see the glyphs feel more worth picking up in any form. They have great potential to have added boons. The radius though. . . bah.

I keep refreshing here and at Dulfy’s website to see if I catch a glimpse of anything we can expect. I’m going to probably lose my mind here soon. I’m so eager

Scrimschaw.5784:

Zev.3407:

you sound like your talking about solo play, not team play, which obviously solo a pure healing build would only be reactive to dps, but as a team its very effective. also druid is about burst healing not slow sustain healing. (thats what ventari is). i do agree with you that healing is reactive compared to defensive boons , but thats not a bad thing when as a team, everyone gets hit.

no one is saying druid can solo fight and win as a bunker. but as a duo(or more) it is a force to be reckoned with.

I think a big problem people are having is trying to force the old meta into the new one, when we dont even know how the new meta will be once everything is done being balanced. Play any game, the meta changes, it wont always be the same thing. some people just cant adapt and cant do as well and complain.

Zev, my biggest worry right now is how easily CAF is spotted and focused down by the other team (like a necromancer in Lich Form, without the health bump). CAF doesn’t have any personal defense. We probably won’t be able to camp it either after CAF generation is tweaked—it’s going to be situational burst healing that currently has higher risk than reward (given the ease of focusing down a Druid in CAF, and a dead druid deals no heals).

Really like the idea of a health bump while in CAF, even a relatively small one. It makes sense.

Also, some stability as we enter the form (bout the same as say SotP) wouldn’t also go a miss.

If you wanted to take it a step further, have that seed skill grant stability as well. You could maybe change the skill so that instead of one big seed, it makes a bed of smaller seeds around the targeted area (so its like a stable platform, which is how you could justify it granting stability) but I’m no game developer so I dont know if that’s possible before HoT launches.

(Posting from phone, typos guaranteed)

Scrimschaw.5784:

Zev.3407:

you sound like your talking about solo play, not team play, which obviously solo a pure healing build would only be reactive to dps, but as a team its very effective. also druid is about burst healing not slow sustain healing. (thats what ventari is). i do agree with you that healing is reactive compared to defensive boons , but thats not a bad thing when as a team, everyone gets hit.

no one is saying druid can solo fight and win as a bunker. but as a duo(or more) it is a force to be reckoned with.

I think a big problem people are having is trying to force the old meta into the new one, when we dont even know how the new meta will be once everything is done being balanced. Play any game, the meta changes, it wont always be the same thing. some people just cant adapt and cant do as well and complain.

Zev, my biggest worry right now is how easily CAF is spotted and focused down by the other team (like a necromancer in Lich Form, without the health bump). CAF doesn’t have any personal defense. We probably won’t be able to camp it either after CAF generation is tweaked—it’s going to be situational burst healing that currently has higher risk than reward (given the ease of focusing down a Druid in CAF, and a dead druid deals no heals).

Thats why its a team game. classes arn’t balanced around 1 vs 1.

Get a team of a druid, guardian and 3 dps :p (2 support, 3 damage)

AgitatedFox.5287:

Scrimschaw.5784:

Zev.3407:

you sound like your talking about solo play, not team play, which obviously solo a pure healing build would only be reactive to dps, but as a team its very effective. also druid is about burst healing not slow sustain healing. (thats what ventari is). i do agree with you that healing is reactive compared to defensive boons , but thats not a bad thing when as a team, everyone gets hit.

no one is saying druid can solo fight and win as a bunker. but as a duo(or more) it is a force to be reckoned with.

I think a big problem people are having is trying to force the old meta into the new one, when we dont even know how the new meta will be once everything is done being balanced. Play any game, the meta changes, it wont always be the same thing. some people just cant adapt and cant do as well and complain.

Zev, my biggest worry right now is how easily CAF is spotted and focused down by the other team (like a necromancer in Lich Form, without the health bump). CAF doesn’t have any personal defense. We probably won’t be able to camp it either after CAF generation is tweaked—it’s going to be situational burst healing that currently has higher risk than reward (given the ease of focusing down a Druid in CAF, and a dead druid deals no heals).

Really like the idea of a health bump while in CAF, even a relatively small one. It makes sense.

Also, some stability as we enter the form (bout the same as say SotP) wouldn’t also go a miss.

If you wanted to take it a step further, have that seed skill grant stability as well. You could maybe change the skill so that instead of one big seed, it makes a bed of smaller seeds around the targeted area (so its like a stable platform, which is how you could justify it granting stability) but I’m no game developer so I dont know if that’s possible before HoT launches.

(Posting from phone, typos guaranteed)

For me I took off my glyphs and ran Strength of the Pack. It feels like a very selfish thing because obviously it’s just for pet / self.

Sometimes and I feel like this would be too overpowered but I wish the Glyph of Unity tethering was changed into a pulse of stability to those you’re tethered to and drop the extra heals. I know I know. A person can dream. >.>’’ lol

CandyHearts.6025:

AgitatedFox.5287:

Scrimschaw.5784:

Zev.3407:

you sound like your talking about solo play, not team play, which obviously solo a pure healing build would only be reactive to dps, but as a team its very effective. also druid is about burst healing not slow sustain healing. (thats what ventari is). i do agree with you that healing is reactive compared to defensive boons , but thats not a bad thing when as a team, everyone gets hit.

no one is saying druid can solo fight and win as a bunker. but as a duo(or more) it is a force to be reckoned with.

I think a big problem people are having is trying to force the old meta into the new one, when we dont even know how the new meta will be once everything is done being balanced. Play any game, the meta changes, it wont always be the same thing. some people just cant adapt and cant do as well and complain.

Zev, my biggest worry right now is how easily CAF is spotted and focused down by the other team (like a necromancer in Lich Form, without the health bump). CAF doesn’t have any personal defense. We probably won’t be able to camp it either after CAF generation is tweaked—it’s going to be situational burst healing that currently has higher risk than reward (given the ease of focusing down a Druid in CAF, and a dead druid deals no heals).

Really like the idea of a health bump while in CAF, even a relatively small one. It makes sense.

Also, some stability as we enter the form (bout the same as say SotP) wouldn’t also go a miss.

If you wanted to take it a step further, have that seed skill grant stability as well. You could maybe change the skill so that instead of one big seed, it makes a bed of smaller seeds around the targeted area (so its like a stable platform, which is how you could justify it granting stability) but I’m no game developer so I dont know if that’s possible before HoT launches.

(Posting from phone, typos guaranteed)

For me I took off my glyphs and ran Strength of the Pack. It feels like a very selfish thing because obviously it’s just for pet / self.

Sometimes and I feel like this would be too overpowered but I wish the Glyph of Unity tethering was changed into a pulse of stability to those you’re tethered to and drop the extra heals. I know I know. A person can dream. >.>’’ lol

No that’s completely justified in my eyes, our elite glyph is poor, not what I was expecting from what they showed in the twitch stream. The stability (from a PvP standpoint) is a must while in CAF, even if it turns out to be a one time thing that that we choose when to use. But I have digressed from healing power so I’ll save that for a seperate post.

Wow guys, the flaming needs to stop lol.

Mistsim is making the point that healbotting or redbarring doesn’t work well alone in a gamemode that hp gained from pure healing is, in some way, arbitrary when it tends to just melt off of targets with no defensive measures or mitigation.

I think the point that’s trying to be made, in regards to the thread, is that the Druid design in the BWE doesn’t work well in a PvP environment, at least, not as well as it would if Druid played like a proper support with the ability to provide damage mitigation (protection, aegis, stability to a degree, weakness and soft/hard CC) to teammates to protect the hp the spec heals.

I don’t think that anybody here is saying that the healing was bad or that it had no effect whatsoever. But we are saying that in high level play, the Druid as it was in the BWE was too linear and didn’t have the damage mitigation or support features for itself, let alone allies, that it would need to be worth taking over something else. All it had was healing, which in the grand scheme of things, is replaceable still by specs that bring that alongside a ton of other versatility (guardians, eles, even engis to some degree).

Zev.3407:

mistsim.2748:

CandyHearts.6025:

mistsim.2748:

Shoe.5821:

a good Mesmer will spike you for 15k on 3k armor

this is silly. it really doesn’t matter what class you are playing if you let a burster burst you.

we might as well say ‘a good Druid will daze you continuously’ and it would be about as relevant.

good interrupt mesmers will pop you for that much out of stealth, you cant see it coming. you need to be able to survive that, and whatever follows after.

getting dazed a few times is not the same as getting dazed, interrupted and spiked for 15k.

Going to echo what people have said a few times. That is anyone. Not just druid. So it doesn’t really belong being discussed here.

if by echo, you mean parrot, go right ahead. im totally on topic. you think you can run clerics in pvp, and I’m telling you that you cannot because 15.9k HP because instagib.

when I made a thread suggesting that rangers become a high HP prof, you should have supported that. then we could run settlers, rabid, cavalier, zerker and clerics in pvp. currently, you cannot. in fact, you cant run anything other than marauder, valk and celestial. not effectively, not successfully.

I kinda feel your issue is a “learn to play” issue, if you think anything that has 15.9k or lower hp is ineffective in spvp

I kinda feel that you need a lot more experience in ranked arena before you make this claim.

Razor.9872:

Sounds like you want druid to do practically everything. It only makes sense that if you want good heals, then you need healing power.

I have consistently agreed with Irenio’s decision, provided he does not lower the base heals much below the healing of a water field blast. I would like for multiple “optimal” builds to be viable for Druid, opening it up for hybrid support-damage or support-control depending on situation/party composition, but I do not want Druid to excel at support, damage, AND control at the same time. Nor do I want druid to excel at any of these things more than any other class, save for support Druids who trait heavily into healing power (since support is non-negotiable in this elite specialization due to CAF).

Improve damage scaling on Druid and allow traiting for conditions (or add conditions to staff), and Druids will have the choice of being pure, very strong support, OR lower-support, higher damage/control.

Zev.3407:

mistsim.2748:

CandyHearts.6025:

mistsim.2748:

Shoe.5821:

a good Mesmer will spike you for 15k on 3k armor

this is silly. it really doesn’t matter what class you are playing if you let a burster burst you.

we might as well say ‘a good Druid will daze you continuously’ and it would be about as relevant.

good interrupt mesmers will pop you for that much out of stealth, you cant see it coming. you need to be able to survive that, and whatever follows after.

getting dazed a few times is not the same as getting dazed, interrupted and spiked for 15k.

Going to echo what people have said a few times. That is anyone. Not just druid. So it doesn’t really belong being discussed here.

if by echo, you mean parrot, go right ahead. im totally on topic. you think you can run clerics in pvp, and I’m telling you that you cannot because 15.9k HP because instagib.

when I made a thread suggesting that rangers become a high HP prof, you should have supported that. then we could run settlers, rabid, cavalier, zerker and clerics in pvp. currently, you cannot. in fact, you cant run anything other than marauder, valk and celestial. not effectively, not successfully.

I kinda feel your issue is a “learn to play” issue, if you think anything that has 15.9k or lower hp is ineffective in spvp

with over 3k hours on my ranger in the top MMR, playing against the best players in the game every match, I have to admit, it’s sort of a “being down to earth and intimately connected to reality” issue.

other specs that have that sort of HP have an immense amount of offensive capability, stealth, and in the case of eles perma prot and huge sustain. in other words, you haven’t a kittening clue about what youre talking about.

considering the shape the druid was in during BWE3, running cleric is completely suicidal not to mention pointless as you cant contribute any damage whatsoever.

back on topic: if you want to see druids in high tier play, don’t touch the base heals. but make them scale better with HP. the offensive/hybrid druid will be essential, and those who know conquest know this.

you can get healing power without going clerics. Most of my Druid builds were trying to work with celestial.

if Druid played like a proper support with the ability to provide damage mitigation (protection, aegis, stability to a degree, weakness and soft/hard CC)

Yep, can’t think of any CC on the Druid. I would make a snarky comment about earth spirit but ehhhhhhhhh.

You basically offer no good boons to your teammates, the only thing you can offer is heals and some CC’s.

You can offer the same boons the Ranger can, for better or worse

(especially considering base Druid’s lack of stunbreak and its very conditional condition cleansing)

The druid has the same stunbreaks the ranger has.

We can judge the Druid on a basis other than a glyph build, folks :P

I must say that druid is the biggest letdown, a specialization so rigidly designed as a healer whereas the other specializations can be built in a variety of ways.
Specialization is redundant as it only brings healing.

Having just a healer play style that may only be quite useful in a raid environment, however, completely kitten and unnecessary in open world what already makes such spec quite pointless. Other than that, not a small amount of gold should be invested in order to craft ascended cleric gear.

Druid does not synergy well with core ranger, it is even could be said that it feels like separate mini class.

It would be great if there will be a second Avatar form which would provide damage. Some improvements towards raw damage, conditions or some utility would be amazing in traits. Just in general it would be amazing to build a druid as condi or power spec … not just a support/healing spec.

Some improvements to the core ranger should be made in order to make it more be desirable since it seems that whole intention is to make druid desirable, while any other ranger who wants to enjoy some raid content would be forced to craft a clerics ascended set.

Jojee.5671:

I must say that druid is the biggest letdown, a specialization so rigidly designed as a healer whereas the other specializations can be built in a variety of ways.
Specialization is redundant as it only brings healing.

Having just a healer play style that may only be quite useful in a raid environment, however, completely kitten and unnecessary in open world what already makes such spec quite pointless. Other than that, not a small amount of gold should be invested in order to craft ascended cleric gear.

Druid does not synergy well with core ranger, it is even could be said that it feels like separate mini class.

It would be great if there will be a second Avatar form which would provide damage. Some improvements towards raw damage, conditions or some utility would be amazing in traits. Just in general it would be amazing to build a druid as condi or power spec … not just a support/healing spec.

Some improvements to the core ranger should be made in order to make it more be desirable since it seems that whole intention is to make druid desirable, while any other ranger who wants to enjoy some raid content would be forced to craft a clerics ascended set.

I disagree. I think it can bring much needed support and survivability to existing builds.

It’s a decent trait line, and brings a lot of options for old traits like MoC.

I’d also much rather have druod than dragon hunter…

Jojee.5671:

I must say that druid is the biggest letdown, a specialization so rigidly designed as a healer whereas the other specializations can be built in a variety of ways.
Specialization is redundant as it only brings healing.

I disagree

The druid can be spec’d for mobility and vicious CC and does not have to carry a staff.

CandyHearts.6025:

Scrimschaw.5784:

CandyHearts.6025:

Because “ideal” is what? Meta? lol

Ideal stats depends on what you intend to do. This is why there are Bunker, Burst, etc.

And I see a lot of comparing to Guard who doesn’t have to give up stats? Okay then let’s compare it to Cleric or a Soldier Bunker Guard. Since we’re talking about sustain and not trying to compare apples to oranges. (Boons to Heals).

I think you guys should play a bit longer before you rush to think you know 100%. Give Druid some time and see how it works in “the meta” since that seems to be such a big deal.

Also agree with Shoe, AgitatedFox, and Zev. ^.^

Pardon for my being off subject.

Candyhearts, you are mixing up PvP and PvE “meta”. (I would also like to add that META stands for Most Efficient Tactics Available—nothing more, nothing less, and certainly nothing nefarious. There will always be a meta, since some builds will always be more powerful than others. This is not a bad thing, as you are suggesting, but it is inevitable due to game balance.)

While I only have 10 hours on Druid, I have a thousand hours on base Ranger. I have 430 hours on my PvP bunker Guardian. As it is, Druid has no shot of replacing any of the current successful bunker classes save for organized team fights (though from my experience in WvW, it is easy for the other side to spot when you enter CAF and focus you down in a hot second). This is because Druid focuses solely on reactive healing, rather than proactive defense.

A single, well-timed Aegis can negate essentially infinite spike damage (in this case, my Guardian’s entire health bar, or about ~17k HP). Protection can negate 33% of damage entirely. You can run these defenses while maintaining full offensive pressure. Healing Power is not required for either of these boons, which individually can negate far more damage than healing can recover. Good bunkers do not rely solely on healing, because there is no such thing as slow, sustained damage in PvP—unless you are fighting another bunker build (a fight during which both bunkers will largely remain at 80+% health indefinitely). (Also remember that many classes deal bonus damage to enemies below 50% health—if you take 50% of your HP in damage very quickly, they can spike you for more even quicker). No matter how amazing the Druid’s healing is, it is always one step behind the class dealing the damage, and therefore at the mercy of the damage-dealer. After all, healing is useless UNTIL you take damage. For a class with medium armor and a medium-tier health pool, this is risky business without active damage mitigation.

Because Druid also has very low DPS if it aims to run a Healing Power build (in PvP, pet damage is easily negated by strafing, stealthing, or simply CCing the pet), it cannot defeat other bunker builds. It also cannot defeat spike damage builds before a good spike damager can kill them (especially considering base Druid’s lack of stunbreak and its very conditional condition cleansing). Traditionally, ranger survives in PvP through mobility, heavy spike damage pressure (which forces other spike damagers to retreat temporarily), and instant condition cleansing+CC through the Wilderness Survival trait line. The Druid line does not end our reliance on any of these things for survival, and adds a new state (CAF) where we are completely vulnerable to damage WITHOUT putting any pressure on our enemy (or minimal pressure, now that Irenio has said he will add minor damage to CAF skills).

I am not trying to be insensitive, and I am happy that people enjoyed Druid as-is. But it has too many weaknesses right now to even be on-par with base Ranger in most situations, and I abhor the idea of having Druid be a one-trick pony whose only purpose is to play whack-a-mole with allies’ health bars. Even if it is not ’zerker meta, healing meta will get very old, very fast. Druid needs more active, dynamic play that accounts for a variety of situations—including situations that require DPS—and it needs more synergy with base Ranger and the pet in order to “fit” with the Ranger class more comfortably.

Okay Seriously. I didn’t say anything but that other people were confused as to comparing apples and oranges (Boons to Heals. Go back and read). I’m not reading this book long post you made no offense. You keep reading WAYYY too far into everything I say.

Explaining how timed aegis is better than heals when I said they are NOT the same thing. Have nothing to do with Druid. If you guys wanna go carry on to compare Guard bunker to how Druid bunker could possibly work go do that in a proper thread.

I’m really not going to spend any more time on you because I can tell you’re just looking to argue and prove points. Have fun with that. You’re explaining like I said the total opposite when I said nothing.

Also proper paragraph structure is a thing.

And while you can go on to say it’s a worthy topic I would like you to take a gander at the subject heading. Does it say SPVP? It says Healing Power Scaling. You’re welcome.

So back on subject, if this thread will ever allow it. Right? xD

Actually, I found his post to be pretty short for the amount of information it conveyed. It was also well organized, so your criticism in that regard is misplaced. The point here, though, is that you have to compare boons to heals, because that is what PvP teams and dungeon groups will do when deciding which professions and builds to use. Remember, in PvE the ideal will always be to use the bare minimum defensive support and healing to complete the scenario. If self heals and a single boon guardian in berzerker armor will get by, then that’s what will be used…leaving the druid out of luck.

Your criticism of subject matter is equally misplaced. Forcing druids to take healing power without buffing them in other ways will reduce their already questionable performance in PvP. Therefore, discussing PvP performance is not out of place here. Basically, the problem here is that ArenaNet appears to be hyperfocused on making the druid useful (necessary, even) in raids, while allowing them to be less effective everywhere else. Forcing them to take healing power for basic functionality will make this even worse.

Druid is broken) we need a fix )

Nike.2631:

I disagree

The druid can be spec’d for mobility and vicious CC and does not have to carry a staff.

Without staff you won’t be able to build recourses towards usage of Avatar form which is crucial for Druid and without it … you pretty much throw away best druid has – his healing potential.

Mobility huh, it is just quite pointless to take this specialisation just for permanent swiftness because you can reach permanent swiftness + regeneration by using Timbre minor trait from Beast mastery.

Not sure about cc tho’ as for me nothing " vicious "

Jojee.5671:

Nike.2631:

I disagree

The druid can be spec’d for mobility and vicious CC and does not have to carry a staff.

Without staff you won’t be able to build recourses towards usage of Avatar form which is crucial for Druid and without it … you pretty much throw away best druid has – his healing potential.

Mobility huh, it is just quite pointless to take this specialisation just for permanent swiftness because you can reach permanent swiftness + regeneration by using Timbre minor trait from Beast mastery.

Not sure about cc tho’ as for me nothing " vicious "

You are still walking around with blinders on. The build will rarely even use CAF. It has TU so it can generate AF just fine and a SB fires almost twice a second, so the AF generation will be fine. No need to tun a staff, at all.

Jojee.5671:

Without staff you won’t be able to build recourses towards usage of Avatar form which is crucial for Druid and without it … you pretty much throw away best druid has – his healing potential.

With the changes, the staff may not be needed for building up astral force. Let’s be honest, with the staff, it was previously way too fast if you had any ally around. Now it will be more balanced.