Guild Wars 2

Tbh, I enjoy the steal mechanic. Not as much for the effectiveness, but to rub salt on their wounds. Example; steal from Necro, apply a fear to them that is better than their own, while they are running away, bp> hs> bs … how insulting is it to know the main reason you died was because of your own ability? Most people with a brain won’t allow a nice easy solid backstab. Using their own stuff against them for a prefect lineup? I’d laugh, as I died a little inside.

dont get me wrong i love the telport very much …very fun. flows with build too. i just dont get excited on the numerical values so to speak on what it can do.

oh and you dont have enough time to do that combo…MAAAAAAAAAYBE if u were rightontop of them as you used fear and they were slow reacting. its a 2 sec fear right?

3 seconds, just checked. And usually I am right on top of them, it isn’t something I open with either. More so at 1/4, sometimes 1/3 in this scenario just to finish them off. I rarely use it for the shadow step.

i use it and save a good one up depending on situation ….just bad that it covers steal when u do that

Thankfully though, by holding it, steal still recharges so if you’ve held an item for 45 seconds, use it, you can immediately use steal afterwards.

true true. just wish we had and f2 like poison or devourer venom even if poison was like 4 seconds or the immob was 1.5 secfonds. f3 would be an escape skill….idk likeshadowstep in the direction you are running 600 range even….which is only a little but i mean anything would be fine really is what im trying to say.

Travlane.5948:

when i say horrendous….we have a 45 sec timer on an F mechanic that is no longer a huge dmg skill. boon ripping is never traited for as its more skill for a “lets deal dmg” kind of build even tho its in “condition” trait line. even if u steal them its a 45 sec recharge for probably …on average… a 5-6 sec boon.
2k dmg? pfft averages 800-1100 on average attack build. 2k would be full traited 10k hp kind of zerk build. might fury swift is good but again its more of a damage dealer still stuck in condi line.

Again someone is being selfish. It’s a bit weaker because it’s shared with your allies. It allows my thief to quite viably play support. With buff duration, the charr roar racial, and runes of altruism I can maintain permanent fury, and 2/3 uptime on swiftness, 6 stacks of might, and vigor on me and some allies. Plus whatever boons I steal spread to them (It’s funny to strip that other thief of his 15 stacks of might or his dagger storm stability), and more boons for me stolen from an enemy via sword/dagger.

Is it your typical damage build? Nope, I am damage/support and with wise stealing I can also provide regen via both stolen boons and F skills at will. I can also enable my team to take out problematic enemies like that guardian or ele who just lost their protection/swiftness/stability. Also makes me a better chaser for my team. The F-skills can be very nice too.

I understand that all you are worried about here is damage, but one of the prime reasons thief is in such a bad spot is because of exactly that kind of focus. This is exactly why the devs are trying to make them a more balanced class so they won’t be so easily countered.

my point on his 4k top end INSTANT dmg skill…. was that its not far of from the 6k mug dmg. but its not tweaked or downgraded…… so you cant really avoid a teleport dmg skill unless u are already mid roll :P so idk what u mean by not doing my job. nobody can respond at a -.01 sec response time.

Yeah but it ends there. That skills doesn’t do anything else and the guardian doesn’t have near the ability to escape thief does. They teleport into combat, and then they stay there. We can move in and out at will. That is a huge difference. Makes a great initiation, but remember that guardian has about the same HP and if built for damage can’t exactly take a beating. They go in to win the fight or die while a good thief lollercopters away from the lost fight.

and no matter how you look at it….added traits or not F Steal doesnt compare to any other classes F mechanics….

I’ll agree. But then I’ll also agree the same of warrior. Adrenaline moves are nice, but not up there with other F mechanics. Ranger’s is very hit and miss. Their pets are either good or worthless most of the time.

But whether our F mechanics are as good as other classes and whether thieves are good are two entirely different things. Thief is currently just fine, BUT they need more build variety. This is exactly what Anet believes too. Be patient and in time thief will be able to do more, as well as keep high damage as an option. But I highly suspect to achieve that it’ll mean less dependence on stealth and more in combat survivability.

Hey Trav, random, and any other Thief that thinks you guys are somehow bad or “can’t burst as well” … here’s a video that features thieves and isn’t including anything like the multiple shatter on same clones or might on shatter bugs (like you mesmer video did).

Trav, we have seen your level of play. You used your pistol on a target that was using daggerstorm … using sneak attack on them several times.

There is more to gameplay and skills than just “more dps!”

There is more to thieves than just “more dps!”

Do you know what you get every time you steal from a Mesmer? Combine that with the crazy low elite cooldown and Superior Runes of Lyssa. It’s pretty sexy.

How about the 4 sec stun from stealing from a Guardian?

Steal doesn’t need any traits to be good, but it has plenty that make it an outstanding skill, even without taking Mug.

Travlane.5948:

true true. just wish we had and f2 like poison or devourer venom even if poison was like 4 seconds or the immob was 1.5 secfonds.

5 points in the Deadly Arts trait-line gives you Serpent’s Touch. Why do you need another F2 ability to inflict poison?

Travlane.5948:

f3 would be an escape skill….idk likeshadowstep in the direction you are running 600 range even….which is only a little but i mean anything would be fine really is what im trying to say.

Because the 450 leap range on heartseeker for any main-hand dagger setup isn’t enough?

Because the 1,200 range teleport on shadow return (which is also a stunbreaker and condition removal) on any main-hand sword setup isn’t enough?

Because the 900 range on Infiltrator’s Arrow on any shortbow setup isn’t enough?

Why is it I seem to know more Thief tricks and utilities off the top of my head than you do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-Svq3ktpIo

For the record, I don’t disagree with you Sebrent about Thief burst being viable and players on this forum generally blowing things out of proportion.

However, that isn’t to say the Thief doesn’t have issues, in particular the string of what seem like ill thought-out nerfs that seem to appeal to hotjoin heroes and ungeared, uplevelled, or simply inexperienced players complaining. But given this has happened more or less to all professions in some form recently, I also won’t really argue this point further.

I won’t get in a huge kitten fest with you like many have before in this thread and others, but I just want you to know the Thief isn’t -as- great as you seem to make it out to be in your posts. Given your post history though, it seems you’re a bit biased against Thieves in general though, no offense.

I still agree with you for the most part, just not how you go about presenting things in this thread and others.

You could also use a video of Thief burst in TPvP, at the very least. Again, not disagreeing, just stating it might make your point better.

I like how you post a video about how great thief burst is, and the video uses both mug and haste, from before both have been nerfed by 50% or more. nice try but fail

Seryi, I think we’re actually on the same page.

I really wish Thief would rely on stealth less. I think this would make this far more powerful in sPvP.

Why do I think this?

Because Mesmer’s make good use of stealth, just not to the same degree as thieves, and they are prevalent in high tiers of sPvP.

I think the nerfs to Elementalist will also help Thief in that area.

When it comes to PvE, I think Thieves are in a pretty good spot. I actually now have a group I usually run with for high level fractals and one player is always a thief. Rather than taking Signet of Shadows (what good is that in PvE people?!), he changes his utilities to match the fight. For example, again dredge we have Smoke Screen for anti-projectile.

I think Thief issues in PvE are largely “learn to play” (similar to Rangers) as I’ve seen many outstanding Thieves in high level fractals. In fact, my best fractal groups ever each had 2 spectacular thieves in them.

In WvW, Thieves are kinds of roaming. Their counter is slow tanks that can’t really kill them before the Thief realizes what the target is and just leaves the fight to find a non-counter to their build.

The fact that people think Thieves suck in zergs amazes me. The shortbow is so sexy in zerg fights. It’s even better with organized groups because of the on-demand blast finisher spam.

As far as my history, I try to not be biased with thieves. I just simply think, especially now that the Ranger community has become more positive, that the thief community is rather horrid.

Not very open to many new ideas, very prone to gross exaggerations, and quite prone to complaining about anything that may diminish any style of play.

Just as the Ranger being so easy in open world has allowed for there to be an abundance of bad Rangers in the game, I think the Thief being so easy in pvp has allowed there to be an abundance of bad Thieves.

That’s not to say Ranger and Thief have low skill ceilings … quite the opposite. But their skill floors in those two separate areas is what I’m talking about.

Shemsu.8721:

I like how you post a video about how great thief burst is, and the video uses both mug and haste, from before both have been nerfed by 50% or more. nice try but fail

I already answered this in that other thread, but I’ll answer you again.

Mug is far the highest damage number in there.

With the haste, take their attack speed and reduce it by 25%. (+50% gives you 150% which is 50% less than the previous 200%. 50% is 1/4 of 200%.)

The damage numbers still stand and the speed isn’t that much worse.

At least your class was given something in exchange for their quickness nerf. Mesmer got nothing to compensate for the nerf to Time Warp. Ranger got nothing to compensate for the nerf to the trait Zephyr’s Speed.

Ralathar.7236:

Travlane.5948:

when i say horrendous….we have a 45 sec timer on an F mechanic that is no longer a huge dmg skill. boon ripping is never traited for as its more skill for a “lets deal dmg” kind of build even tho its in “condition” trait line. even if u steal them its a 45 sec recharge for probably …on average… a 5-6 sec boon.
2k dmg? pfft averages 800-1100 on average attack build. 2k would be full traited 10k hp kind of zerk build. might fury swift is good but again its more of a damage dealer still stuck in condi line.

Again someone is being selfish. It’s a bit weaker because it’s shared with your allies. It allows my thief to quite viably play support. With buff duration, the charr roar racial, and runes of altruism I can maintain permanent fury, and 2/3 uptime on swiftness, 6 stacks of might, and vigor on me and some allies. Plus whatever boons I steal spread to them (It’s funny to strip that other thief of his 15 stacks of might or his dagger storm stability), and more boons for me stolen from an enemy via sword/dagger.

Is it your typical damage build? Nope, I am damage/support and with wise stealing I can also provide regen via both stolen boons and F skills at will. I can also enable my team to take out problematic enemies like that guardian or ele who just lost their protection/swiftness/stability. Also makes me a better chaser for my team. The F-skills can be very nice too.

I understand that all you are worried about here is damage, but one of the prime reasons thief is in such a bad spot is because of exactly that kind of focus. This is exactly why the devs are trying to make them a more balanced class so they won’t be so easily countered.

my point on his 4k top end INSTANT dmg skill…. was that its not far of from the 6k mug dmg. but its not tweaked or downgraded…… so you cant really avoid a teleport dmg skill unless u are already mid roll :P so idk what u mean by not doing my job. nobody can respond at a -.01 sec response time.

Yeah but it ends there. That skills doesn’t do anything else and the guardian doesn’t have near the ability to escape thief does. They teleport into combat, and then they stay there. We can move in and out at will. That is a huge difference. Makes a great initiation, but remember that guardian has about the same HP and if built for damage can’t exactly take a beating. They go in to win the fight or die while a good thief lollercopters away from the lost fight.

and no matter how you look at it….added traits or not F Steal doesnt compare to any other classes F mechanics….

I’ll agree. But then I’ll also agree the same of warrior. Adrenaline moves are nice, but not up there with other F mechanics. Ranger’s is very hit and miss. Their pets are either good or worthless most of the time.

But whether our F mechanics are as good as other classes and whether thieves are good are two entirely different things. Thief is currently just fine, BUT they need more build variety. This is exactly what Anet believes too. Be patient and in time thief will be able to do more, as well as keep high damage as an option. But I highly suspect to achieve that it’ll mean less dependence on stealth and more in combat survivability.

i get you on some points but you say thief is in a troubling spot now and they can be easily countered bc they rely on dmg so much…… so many would disagree with you here (thief haters) …i dont. Yes warrior F mechanic isnt OP like some but u gotta compare teh cooldown times….its still better than thief bc of the attacks and also on a super short timer compared to our 45 secs. also sharing fury might swiftness 1 stack each is….cool but not really a “selfless” build. those are all offensive. look at a guardians f1 f2 f3. pick any one of them and they do more for a group then thieves steal. not whining but there is a huge gap. i think if they do what they say and make steal a single line teleport regardless of target….it would help.

Shemsu.8721:

I like how you post a video about how great thief burst is, and the video uses both mug and haste, from before both have been nerfed by 50% or more. nice try but fail

this will happen months from now….“look what a thief can do” lol

For the record, I, and no one else, ever said thief was bad. All I said is that we should be outclassed in the areas where we’re supposed to be the best. Thieves are supposed to have the best stealth, mobility, and single target burst. We have the best stealth, are back to 1st or 2nd with mobility, but still 3rd on burst. Just wanting those things brought back up considering all the things we have to sacrifice to perma stealth (can achieve it but you won’t be picking a fight any time soon) or high burst.

randomfightfan.4091:

For the record, I, and no one else, ever said thief was bad. All I said is that we should be outclassed in the areas where we’re supposed to be the best. Thieves are supposed to have the best stealth, mobility, and single target burst. We have the best stealth, are back to 1st or 2nd with mobility, but still 3rd on burst. Just wanting those things brought back up considering all the things we have to sacrifice to perma stealth (can achieve it but you won’t be picking a fight any time soon) or high burst.

even anet said they wanna up our base dmg. for those non thieves that dont get it:
GIVEN: ALL= ZERK ARMR BERYL ORBS + ZERK ACCS+JEWELS(est below)

EX————-TRAITED———-AUTO ATTACK —-——DIFFERENCE

THIEF 1—-30 30 0 0 10——-1400 1400 3800——-PWR/CRIT/CRITDMG/CONDUR
THIEF 2—-0 0 30 30 10——-450 450 1400———-TOUGH/HP/HEAL/BOONDUR

auto attacks are rounded up as if each hit were 100% critical chance)*

if not a crit first two auto attacks on thief 2 are 250 dmg each. :/

all that “upping” our base dmg would do is change the 2nd thief to do more . not the first.

@Trav’s Video post
As far as your video … we both agree you played poorly (why doesn’t matter) so no real point can be made except for “bad play is bad”.

You also used a horrible build … which makes no real point except for “bad build is bad”.

@Trav’s “math” attempt

First, you do realize that that is 1,400 damage every 0.25 seconds while most other players autoattacks are 0.5 to 1.5 seconds and many don’t do that much damage even with that gear?

Second, your statement that it increases only Thief 2 is horribly incorrect unless you want to also reduce how much you gain per power/crit/crit damage.

It’s very simple. Base + Damage_Stats = Total_Damage. If you increase either of those numbers, Total_Damage goes up. So if you only improve Base, then both Thief 1 and Thief 2 do more damage.

Sebrent.3625:

Shemsu.8721:

I like how you post a video about how great thief burst is, and the video uses both mug and haste, from before both have been nerfed by 50% or more. nice try but fail

I already answered this in that other thread, but I’ll answer you again.

Mug is far the highest damage number in there.

With the haste, take their attack speed and reduce it by 25%. (+50% gives you 150% which is 50% less than the previous 200%. 50% is 1/4 of 200%.)

The damage numbers still stand and the speed isn’t that much worse.

At least your class was given something in exchange for their quickness nerf. Mesmer got nothing to compensate for the nerf to Time Warp. Ranger got nothing to compensate for the nerf to the trait Zephyr’s Speed.

How was the thief trait for quickness improved? I must be seeing a glitched version of patch notes, as i dont notice any change to our trait either.

we get 2 seconds longer duration and they also lowered the penalty (both by fixing the negative endurance bug and allowing half endurance regen during it) but then so did all the other non elite versions (warriors take half as much extra damage, rangers only reduce healing by 50% rather than completely stopping em etc etc)

Sebrent.3625:

@Trav’s Video post
As far as your video … we both agree you played poorly (why doesn’t matter) so no real point can be made except for “bad play is bad”.

You also used a horrible build … which makes no real point except for “bad build is bad”.

---

@Trav’s “math” attempt

First, you do realize that that is 1,400 damage every 0.25 seconds while most other players autoattacks are 0.5 to 1.5 seconds and many don’t do that much damage even with that gear?

Second, your statement that it increases only Thief 2 is horribly incorrect unless you want to also reduce how much you gain per power/crit/crit damage.

It’s very simple. Base + Damage_Stats = Total_Damage. If you increase either of those numbers, Total_Damage goes up. So if you only improve Base, then both Thief 1 and Thief 2 do more damage.

A build that can 2 v 1 easily with room for mistakes is bad? interesting. a build that can get intot he heart of the enemy and cause problems dmdg and conditions is bad? interesting

u really have to stop talkign. a thief does not hit every .25 seconds. the first to auto attacks are realistically .5 .5 then the next to are like 1 and 1.5 …cmon dude ur so far off. the math was estimated on hits.

@Shemsu: Good point, I had forgotten about your critical strikes trait for proccing quickness. You got wronged too, like the Ranger. Mesmer is a bit different since it’s an elite, but oh well.

@Travlane:
A Thief signet build? Do please show me the high skill players running this build and doing oh so well with it?

If you’re talking about being able to do something … yeah, I could win a 2v1 with traits for weapons I’m not even using. It’s possible. Is it less possible with such a bad build? Yes, but it’s possible.

Also … what were your math estimates based on? Like all the other “math” you throw around, I’d love to know what it’s based on.

Dasorine.1964:

we get 2 seconds longer duration and they also lowered the penalty (both by fixing the negative endurance bug and allowing half endurance regen during it) but then so did all the other non elite versions (warriors take half as much extra damage, rangers only reduce healing by 50% rather than completely stopping em etc etc)

key word in the previous statement was “trait”. How did our trait get improved? It didn’t it’s junk now. It’s still only 2s quickness on 30s cd that relies on crit. Our utility skill did get improved a bit but it’s still junk. Pretty sure it’s still riping away all the endurance instead of half. Might be a bug or I might have misread its update. Neither are worth taking in 99% of situations though.

Travlane.5948:

u really have to stop talkign. a thief does not hit every .25 seconds. the first to auto attacks are realistically .5 .5 then the next to are like 1 and 1.5 …cmon dude ur so far off. the math was estimated on hits.

the 1st 2 are about .25s apart but the damage is junk and mostly just wastes buffs like assassin signet as it counts as 2 hits (double procs retaliation but often only removes 1 block). The other 2 are good and the 1st part of the chain is supposed to be weak but it doesn’t change the fact that it’s junk. Imo, if it was given 1 stack of vuln (per swing) for say 3-5s, it would significantly improve it without increasing burst or anything that people don’t like about thief.

Also the full chain is around 2.5s so it’s about .5 from the 1st, and .75 for the other 2 with a small bit of over-cast from each attack (the 3rd strike is by far the worst for over-cast)slowing it all down that extra .5s.

Travlane.5948:

i get you on some points but you say thief is in a troubling spot now and they can be easily countered bc they rely on dmg so much…… so many would disagree with you here (thief haters) …i dont.

Ironically most of this is the fault of thief players themselves. When you make a 1 trick pony build, unsurprisingly it fails when someone counters it. While thieves need a little help in this area, they don’t need too much.

But there are two things that will interfere with needed changes:

1. Alot of thieves think they should just get more without giving anything up. But that wouldn’t be balanced. If you touch base damage you need to keep high end damage balanced and thus lesser scaling to maintain the values. If you give more survivability out of stealth you might get less in stealth or less stealth. That kind of thing.

2. People don’t take advantage of what they have. Like when stealth got nerfed a little via reveal you saw some people start using shadow step extremely effectively, but most just griped or stopped playing instead of trying to adapt.

Yes warrior F mechanic isnt OP like some but u gotta compare teh cooldown times….its still better than thief bc of the attacks and also on a super short timer compared to our 45 secs.

It’s on a short timer but is also limited by adrenaline and all of them are focused on damage and maybe some CC. Steal however can be used for damage as well as a great many other things. Then you add the skills that you get from that steal and add even more things.

Also sharing fury might swiftness 1 stack each is….cool but not really a “selfless” build. those are all offensive.

Increasing your entire teams offense is definitely supportive. Swiftness is offensive and defensive both, if you do not know that, you should learn. Vigor is 100% defensive. Mug is offensive. Poison is offensive, weakness on poison is defensive. Stealth on steal is defensive. Daze on steal is both offensive and defensive. Boon sharing from boon rip is exactly how offensive or defensive you choose it to be. All boon sharing and defensive skills are definitely supportive.

The items you steal are offensive or defensive at will since you can easily choose what to steal.

Look at a guardians f1 f2 f3. pick any one of them and they do more for a group then thieves steal. not whining but there is a huge gap. i think if they do what they say and make steal a single line teleport regardless of target….it would help.

Built for support yes, a guardian’s F-Skills would be more supportive, so would the guardian. Built any other way however the Thief Steal skill could easily be more supportive if the thief was built more supportively. As well to really go that supportively the guardian must invest in multiple lines and/or stats to make that support work. Furthermore most of the buffs are on the virtue of Justice for straight damage or Aegis which has a long CD. The thief really only needs to invest in 1 line and only 20 points to get 90% of the supportive power of steal. Also the cooldowns of the virtues are 30 seconds, 60 seconds, and 90 seconds base.

This is called class variety. Thieves are leaned more offensively, guardians more defensively. Thieves have alot of advantages over guardians and vice versa. However, Virtues are not near as far ahead of the Steal skill as you might expect. To really get an idea of the power of something alot of context is involved. Not just a knee-jerk consideration.

Also LOL @ someone coming in here claiming “I 2 vs 1 people!” right beside “My class needs buffs!!”

Sebrent.3625:

@Shemsu: Good point, I had forgotten about your critical strikes trait for proccing quickness. You got wronged too, like the Ranger. Mesmer is a bit different since it’s an elite, but oh well.

@Travlane:
A Thief signet build? Do please show me the high skill players running this build and doing oh so well with it?

If you’re talking about being able to do something … yeah, I could win a 2v1 with traits for weapons I’m not even using. It’s possible. Is it less possible with such a bad build? Yes, but it’s possible.

Also … what were your math estimates based on? Like all the other “math” you throw around, I’d love to know what it’s based on.

math is based on numbers and givens :P duh. silly question. next the signet build is the highest dmg output a thief can make. whats your point? is it balanced? no. can it kill 1 person? yes. can it kill 2? almost never.

Running more than 2 signets is meh.

@ensoriki yeah i know :P i aggree. i run 0 signets in my builds.

@ Ralathar

I enjoyed reading that. It was well though out and intelligent. I also agree that steal and virtues shouldn’t be compared as they are usually used for different roles. The virtues are definitely stronger in team supporting situations but steal can be one of the best skills in the game. Someone is down, steal to the a target and burst it down super fast to rally that ally! Only problem I have with building thief with 20 points into trickery (I’ve ran this build for a long time so I know) is that it feels like wasted traits. The worst part about it is every time I use it, the buffs are nice but I feel like it’s pointless. There’s almost always a guardian, warrior, mesmer, ranger, or ele in the group and they are able to give all the boons we give but more often and with better buffs. This is especially true since our supportive abilities are in a condition line and I am a power thief.

I bountiful is an amazing trait as it rips 2 boons (not steal as the boons your team gets expire in 3s) and gives everyone vigor for 15s. It’s an amazing trait but it’s not worth 20 trait points when the other skill is a fgj, that’s on a 50% longer cd, and only 1 might stack.

If you’re a condi thief then there should be no reason not to get these traits but for power thief I suggest being selfish with your traits and be supportive through using fields and finishers better than any other class while doing crazy good damage to your enemies. You’ll still be doing some of the best team supportive conditions passively along with being one of the best classes for keeping your team alive (whether your pug teamates will admit it or not. Your guildies for sure will).

Thief is a class that is supposed to do well alone and doesn’t need to rely on others. Please keep this class like this. Other classes excel at making others better than they are so let them do their thing and let us do our thing. Everyone will benefit in the end.

nicely said . nothing worse than stealing 1 stack of might :P its why i never used it more than trial periods….. id mesmers are good at illusions trickery confusion and clones and ports and special stuff like that. thieves are good at stealth….and in combat mobility and “should” be 1st in single target dmg. i wish the game let classes be the best at what they are supposed to be the best at. guardians are….mesmers are….warriors are…. umm dare i say necros are close? but the rest of classes seem to be a little off in “ideals”…. i mean ele is master of elements which is true…but also dmg mitigation and heals? idk most games have wizards/spellcaster/elementalists as the most prone to direct dmg.

Necros are the best at being walking armies, problem is their army is USUALLY trash. Some people are very good at minion necro but the vast majority of players who use it are bad players who want their ai to do all the work for them. They are still condition aoe king pins. They are also, by far, the best class at spreading conditions. They aren’t the best at applying but they are the best at spreading.

Now back to the topic. I’m pretty sure thief is the only class that isn’t doing what they’re supposed to do. At least we’re still #1 with stealth. Wonder how long before that’s taken away as well.

randomfightfan.4091:

@ Ralathar

I enjoyed reading that. It was well though out and intelligent. I also agree that steal and virtues shouldn’t be compared as they are usually used for different roles. The virtues are definitely stronger in team supporting situations but steal can be one of the best skills in the game. Someone is down, steal to the a target and burst it down super fast to rally that ally!

Thanks!!.

Only problem I have with building thief with 20 points into trickery (I’ve ran this build for a long time so I know) is that it feels like wasted traits. The worst part about it is every time I use it, the buffs are nice but I feel like it’s pointless. There’s almost always a guardian, warrior, mesmer, ranger, or ele in the group and they are able to give all the boons we give but more often and with better buffs.

While this is true, they often must give up utility skills or weapon selections for this. Keep in mind as well their limits. We give up relatively little for a good amount of support.

Elementalist: Elemental attunement is short lived in it’s 5 second duration (Save might, which is 15 seconds) and limited to a single boon per switch. Auramancers literally build their entire build to do what they do. No boon rips.

Warrior: Shout and Banner builds give up alot to get that support both in the realm of utility slots, possibly stats, and a heavier trait investment. Also, banners have their advantages but mobility is not one of them. I’ll give you that traited Warhorns are IMO OP in WvW atm. They stack far too well. For Great Justice by itself is nice, but comes at the cost of a utility slot. And neither boon rips nor has the potential buffing ability or the adaptability to meet a given situation.

Ranger: Spirits are still terrible for the most part, only real boon giving ability is via pets and the healing well. Small selection of boons and only 2 at a time from pets and requires a significant DPS sacrifice due to pet selection. Horn is decent with it’s buffs, but only decent considering you give up a weapon choice to gain slightly better than 10 trait points in trickery and definitely worse than 20 points in trickery. Also 35 second recharge. None of this boon rips either.

Mesmer: Mesmer has the capability to outboon and outboon-rip thief for sure. However this pretty much requires that they build for it. Sacrificing 1-2 utility skills, 1-2 weapon choices, and an indeterminate number of trait points. This vs 20 trait points.

Guardian: No reliable boon ripping. Definitely superior at supporting, but again they still have higher costs for achieving this.

This is especially true since our supportive abilities are in a condition line and I am a power thief.

I bountiful is an amazing trait as it rips 2 boons (not steal as the boons your team gets expire in 3s) and gives everyone vigor for 15s. It’s an amazing trait but it’s not worth 20 trait points when the other skill is a fgj, that’s on a 50% longer cd, and only 1 might stack.

Even as power thief you do get definitive and noticable damage return form 20 points into trickery. You get 3 more max initiative and 3 initiative every time you steal. That’s 6 initiative worth of damage or 3 in worst case scenarios. You also get fury (which only works on power damage), might, and swiftness which all aid in DPS. Additionally you remove boons from your enemy and gives them to you. Any protection removed is additional DPS and mitigation for you. Any might/fury removed is additional DPS and mitigation for you.

These things might not matter too much as you are jumping that upleveled engie with no buffs on, but they will matter infinitely more vs that ele, guardian, or HGH engie as these traits act as a veritable fulcrum shift when used with appropriate timing by both depriving them of their life-saving or damage-spiking buffs and giving you some pretty good buffage. As the cherry on top you can steal more often.

Oh, and you get to laugh at the specific situations this becomes extra useful like stealing stability from someone and then watching them get thrown around.

Ralathar.7236:

Ranger: Spirits are still terrible for the most part, only real boon giving ability is via pets and the healing well. Small selection of boons and only 2 at a time from pets and requires a significant DPS sacrifice due to pet selection. Horn is decent with it’s buffs, but only decent considering you give up a weapon choice to gain slightly better than 10 trait points in trickery and definitely worse than 20 points in trickery. Also 35 second recharge. None of this boon rips either.

I was more talking about the water field and warhorn. That alone gives everything thief can give and more without the ranger needing any traits or utilities wasted.

And for shout warrior, they can have every shout heal, buff, and remove +1 condition. They are in no way weak and even in cof farm, I have yet to have someone complain that my shouts were healing the group. You do lost out on a good chunk of dps though for being that supportive but it isn’t nearly as bad as the dps thief loses if they take 20 points into trickery. Not even close to as bad.

These things might not matter too much as you are jumping that upleveled engie with no buffs on, but they will matter infinitely more vs that ele, guardian, or HGH engie as these traits act as a veritable fulcrum shift when used with appropriate timing by both depriving them of their life-saving or damage-spiking buffs and giving you some pretty good buffage. As the cherry on top you can steal more often.

Oh, and you get to laugh at the specific situations this becomes extra useful like stealing stability from someone and then watching them get thrown around.

Sadly you will never rip might away from an hgh engi unless you have sword/dagger. Idk why but might is always one of the last things to be stolen. You will get the fury and swiftness or regen instead every time. That being said, bountiful and sword/dagger is amazing. Use the evade portion early, precast the 2nd part and steal, take/rip 4 boons instantly. Very satisfying but also very very situational.

My favorite story I have about bountiful though is I was fighting this necro who had the stability on ds trait. He went death shroud and tried to fear me but instead what happened was I stole that stability, feared him, and melted the necro. His immediate response was wtf just happened :P. Good fights with good people are always fun

shorten it…u cant quote and make a long one…too much to put in :P

?? If you are talking about my internet bugging out and penta posting a quoted reply, I fixed that. Please don’t talk loud, it gave me a headache.

i wish the stun / thefts were in deadly arts line :P makes more sense if u think about

Just to add to what Ralathar stated, trickery is not entirely a DPS loss, at 20 pts its a loss, at 25 pts it can be close to breaking even so long as you manage init well. depending on where you took those points from of course. I usually run 0/30/0/15/25 s/d shortbow, and have been running this since beta (some trait adjustments here and there, but always s/d shortbow)

Instead of putting that extra 15 into trickery (leave 5 in there cause I love 3 ini on steal), you can upgrade your deadly arts line for 150 more power, 5% dagger damage (if you’re daggers) and passive perma 10% bonus dmg (target has condition) along with weakness on poison.

Could do that or get extra points into shadow arts for more toughness, condition removal on stealth, ini on stealth – put 10 points here instead of +3 total ini and you’ll do significantly higher dps as you can easily maintain the 10% bonus dmg when ini above 6 – blind on stealth, or faster deception skills recharge. If you have 20 points into sa you also have all stealth skills lasting 1 second longer. That includes stealth you apply onto others! If you really REALLY want support, use that point to give regen every time you stealth or stealth others. It’s pretty darn good and is significantly better than 10s fury, 1 stack of might, and swiftness that others will be able to give to you at significantly lower cost.

If you’re all about dodges, 15 acrobatics and vigor on heal is AMAZING with withdraw.

I still love totc and bountiful though and am sad that they are no longer in my build.

randomfightfan.4091:

Instead of putting that extra 15 into trickery (leave 5 in there cause I love 3 ini on steal), you can upgrade your deadly arts line for 150 more power, 5% dagger damage (if you’re daggers) and passive perma 10% bonus dmg (target has condition) along with weakness on poison.

Could do that or get extra points into shadow arts for more toughness, condition removal on stealth, ini on stealth – put 10 points here instead of +3 total ini and you’ll do significantly higher dps as you can easily maintain the 10% bonus dmg when ini above 6 – blind on stealth, or faster deception skills recharge. If you have 20 points into sa you also have all stealth skills lasting 1 second longer. That includes stealth you apply onto others! If you really REALLY want support, use that point to give regen every time you stealth or stealth others. It’s pretty darn good and is significantly better than 10s fury, 1 stack of might, and swiftness that others will be able to give to you at significantly lower cost.

If you’re all about dodges, 15 acrobatics and vigor on heal is AMAZING with withdraw.

I still love totc and bountiful though and am sad that they are no longer in my build.

I actually have a boon sharing support build with soldiers gear and runes of altruism I’m working on. One of the biggest things about those boons is that they are of 10 second duration base. If I build 100% supportive (which I am) I can have great survivability (ty acrobatics), apply regen to people I stealth, decent damage, and provide 100% duration buffs which is 100% fury uptime and 66% uptime on fury/swiftness/vigor. 100% uptime on might thanks to great base duration on the charr Roar racial, spiking up to 6 stacks 66% of the time. Other random boons and boon stripping on command.

It’s pretty nifty honestly and in a group environment I DOOM guardians and Bunker Ele’s.

Ok so about half way through page two I got tired of the trolling mesmer. Just so you know the traps they are putting in are not for the thief counters, they are for chain veils from mesmers. Think about it…

Ralathar.7236:

I actually have a boon sharing support build with soldiers gear and runes of altruism I’m working on. One of the biggest things about those boons is that they are of 10 second duration base. If I build 100% supportive (which I am) I can have great survivability (ty acrobatics), apply regen to people I stealth, decent damage, and provide 100% duration buffs which is 100% fury uptime and 66% uptime on fury/swiftness/vigor. 100% uptime on might thanks to great base duration on the charr Roar racial, spiking up to 6 stacks 66% of the time. Other random boons and boon stripping on command.

It’s pretty nifty honestly and in a group environment I DOOM guardians and Bunker Ele’s.

I’m glad you like that build/playstyle but that isn’t for me. I like doing my own damages as well as being useful. I certainly can’t be as team supportive as you or as tanky but I can do all the damage you can do in a quarter the time. I love a game that has class and build diversity.

randomfightfan.4091:

I’m glad you like that build/playstyle but that isn’t for me. I like doing my own damages as well as being useful. I certainly can’t be as team supportive as you or as tanky but I can do all the damage you can do in a quarter the time. I love a game that has class and build diversity.

My main is a sheer glass staff ele in full rampagers with my own custom build. I get called on pretty frequently so I definitely whet my appetite for damage often. Thief is great for havoc groups and single target spiking when it comes to damage. But as all single target damage builds are thief is underwhelming in a zerg as a single target damage build.

S/D and soldiers lets me roam with or without the zerg and be effective. Will I be powning solo nooblets silly enough to be running solo when they are plainly not capable of it? Nah. Will I be helping win the war? Yes. And I can peel off and join up at will for scouting, camps, defenses, zerging, dolyaks, takes, etc. My utility bar is more fluid as well.

If that is the play style you like, that is cool. I don’t look down on it at all, everyone plays to have fun. But since you extol the virtues of damage I extol my virtues and in the grand scheme of things my versatility > your single target damage.

If you are not flipping supply camps or slapping dolyaks you are quite simply being far less effective than you could otherwise be. Teamwork > solo noob killing master.

What’s wrong with being a single target master that picks off a dozen people in a zerg fight while tossing out random cluster bombs in the down time?

Travlane.5948:

Sebrent.3625:

@Shemsu: Good point, I had forgotten about your critical strikes trait for proccing quickness. You got wronged too, like the Ranger. Mesmer is a bit different since it’s an elite, but oh well.

@Travlane:
A Thief signet build? Do please show me the high skill players running this build and doing oh so well with it?

If you’re talking about being able to do something … yeah, I could win a 2v1 with traits for weapons I’m not even using. It’s possible. Is it less possible with such a bad build? Yes, but it’s possible.

Also … what were your math estimates based on? Like all the other “math” you throw around, I’d love to know what it’s based on.

math is based on numbers and givens :P duh. silly question. next the signet build is the highest dmg output a thief can make. whats your point? is it balanced? no. can it kill 1 person? yes. can it kill 2? almost never.

That’s cute. I was asking “what numbers” and “what givens” you were basing yours on. You have yet to cite any specific source for a single graph, chart, percent, etc. that you’ve stated.

If I’m wrong, please feel free to point out where in these threads we’ve been both discussing that you’ve actually provided that.

Travlane.5948:

@ensoriki yeah i know :P i aggree. i run 0 signets in my builds.

Except for that glass cannon build you showed us in that video you made.

the video was an example that thieves can deal a high amount of dmg but also die in 2 secs flat. point was proven. errrrrrrrrrrrrrr

So if I make a video of my mesmer in full glass get killed in 1 second, is that going to prove that Mesmers are squishier than Thieves?

Hint: no it doesn’t.

Now try applying that back to your videos.

What about the videos where Osicat kills the Guardian in 2 seconds? I guess guardians are as squishy as thieves too by your logic.

well considering ur about 5k higher HP …have clones as meatshields…phantasms as meat shields…..blocks…invulrnerabilty….and invis….id say no they arent :P ….a thief can always go down faster than a mesmer: FACT.

if any guardian dies in 2 secs they suck : ALSO FACT