Guild Wars 2

Hi everyone!

I’ve been wondering for some time now: is Acrobatics really THAT bad?

I mean, every single build you can find doesn’t make any use of Acrobatics, but imho it has a very good synergy with Daredevil. So to all Pro Daredevil players, what do you think of Acrobatics?

Thanks

I use it with daredevil with three builds now. Works like a charm. It underrated and adds significant ability to sustain.

I change up stuff on my main template along the way so whatever matchup my server is in makes my build. I’ve been on Acro-Trick-DD for awhile now and I feel like I’m hovering around the best template for a lazy guy like me who doesn’t like to have to change traits and gear often if at all. It can turn the staff into a pugwacker even if it’s a bit shallow for small group or 1v1 and I’m enjoying it with s/d-p/p right now.

I like the old DA Trickery DD combo for D/P and condi trapper, but for sword and for condi dodge acro is better than DA in my opinion. The former builds use dash and the latter use bound and the condi dodge respectively though, so my choice of acro has a lot to do with that. See my sig for my S/P build to see what I mean.

I was theorycrafting a build using both trait lines.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/external?l=http%3A%2F%2Fgw2skills.net%2Feditor%2F%3FvZMQNAW6Yn8lCdmi9OBGOB8PhFqiqLCCgDYO77%2Bw37C%2BgBA-e

Feedback welcome. Basically it makes heavy use of vigor and dodges/evades to tank and damage.

Thanks a lot for the insight guys! I’ve been using Acro for quite some time now and find the nearly perma vigor nice to have (hard to catch and upper hand being nice additions too) and I was really wondering if I was the only thinking that Acro is being underestimated…

bearshaman.3421:

I was theorycrafting a build using both trait lines.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/external?l=http%3A%2F%2Fgw2skills.net%2Feditor%2F%3FvZMQNAW6Yn8lCdmi9OBGOB8PhFqiqLCCgDYO77%2Bw37C%2BgBA-e

Feedback welcome. Basically it makes heavy use of vigor and dodges/evades to tank and damage.

I suggest you drop vigorous recovery and take Pain response , which will get you added condition clears and all but permanent regen . Vigorous recovery is redundant in that you have so many dodges Vigor uptime is 100 percent.

The vigor off feline grace being 5 seconds is greater then the regen off off uper hand with its cooldown so there less overlap with PR selected (in addition to that cleanse of conditions).

You can also take Instant reflexes instead. The cooldown rather long when compared to PR but it IS a 2 second evade and coupled with the Daredevil line this can lead to more condi cleanse if escapists taken, the heals off driven fortitude and that very same vigor from feline which can in fact get you two hits of vigor at 5 seconds per. With upper hand you would also trigger regen if upper hand traited and gain some ini when this kicks in . Plus it a btter than another dodge every 40 seconds as far as avoiding combat damage.

I use the latter in my s/d build traited with swindlers and the added cooldown on steal is also nice. In S/d with evasive strikes/swindlers/upper hand traied along with SOH out of trickery you can do shave some serious seconds off your steal .

babazhook.6805:

bearshaman.3421:

I was theorycrafting a build using both trait lines.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/external?l=http%3A%2F%2Fgw2skills.net%2Feditor%2F%3FvZMQNAW6Yn8lCdmi9OBGOB8PhFqiqLCCgDYO77%2Bw37C%2BgBA-e

Feedback welcome. Basically it makes heavy use of vigor and dodges/evades to tank and damage.

I suggest you drop vigorous recovery and take Pain response , which will get you added condition clears and all but permanent regen . Vigorous recovery is redundant in that you have so many dodges Vigor uptime is 100 percent.

The vigor off feline grace being 5 seconds is greater then the regen off off uper hand with its cooldown so there less overlap with PR selected (in addition to that cleanse of conditions).

You can also take Instant reflexes instead. The cooldown rather long when compared to PR but it IS a 2 second evade and coupled with the Daredevil line this can lead to more condi cleanse if escapists taken, the heals off driven fortitude and that very same vigor from feline which can in fact get you two hits of vigor at 5 seconds per. With upper hand you would also trigger regen if upper hand traited and gain some ini when this kicks in . Plus it a btter than another dodge every 40 seconds as far as avoiding combat damage.

I use the latter in my s/d build traited with swindlers and the added cooldown on steal is also nice. In S/d with evasive strikes/swindlers/upper hand traied along with SOH out of trickery you can do shave some serious seconds off your steal .

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZMQNAW6an8lCdmi9OBONB8PhFqiqrnCgDw7C+gBYO77+wH-e

made adjustments. I like Pain Response over Instant Reflexes (that cooldown ugh). No idea what traits or weapons or skills even to use with this… it doesn’t scream any particular set really. Even direct damage or condi isn’t an obvious choice.

(mind you this would be for some form of pve content. I’m not a pvp player. Maybe wvw at some point.)

babazhook.6805:

I suggest you drop vigorous recovery and take Pain response , which will get you added condition clears and all but permanent regen . Vigorous recovery is redundant in that you have so many dodges Vigor uptime is 100 percent.

I followed this suggestion as well and I gotta say.. I’m glad I did!

Bleyd.9470:

babazhook.6805:

I suggest you drop vigorous recovery and take Pain response , which will get you added condition clears and all but permanent regen . Vigorous recovery is redundant in that you have so many dodges Vigor uptime is 100 percent.

I followed this suggestion as well and I gotta say.. I’m glad I did!

the initial build was a rough draft; took everything that procced vigor or procced off of a dodge or evade. The best offense is a good defense, especially when you make that defense do a lot of damage, heal, and boons?

So I definitely had too much vigor lol. May still have too much, not sure.

Most underrated trait line on the thief IMO. It is now the cornerstone of both my condi and power build. Fortunately almost nobody runs this in WvW on thieves and they generally get torn up when they run into either of my builds.

Btw what do you guys think about runes of the scraper? I just wasted money on scholar runes and though you somehow hit a lil bit more harder, you can get wrecked so hard if you screw up that I am thinking about getting a lil bit more durability

Bad? I don’t know. It’s almost universally worse than DA, Trickery, and DD though.

rennlc.7346:

Bad? I don’t know. It’s almost universally worse than DA, Trickery, and DD though.

Ok but why? It is easy to say “It’s almost universallay worse” without any explication.

Acro/trick/dd : 132/312/323 with staff and d/p marauder build is probably the strongest and most versatile dueling spec at the moment. If you can play this build to its potential, it has no counters, you either win or sustain forever against all builds played by the best of each profession.

rennlc.7346:

Bad? I don’t know. It’s almost universally worse than DA, Trickery, and DD though.

It depends on your outlook. I run bound with S/P for the stealth access, so two big problems with my build when roaming are swiftness access and immobilise since I don’t have dash. Acro with pack runes and withdraw deals with both of those problems nicely, and it gives me a free stunbreak, endurance refill and condi cleanse to boot.

Things I miss out on: Mug (made up for with draining sigil), panic strike (made up for with careful used of sword 2 and shortbow sneak attacks), and improv/executioner. Executioner makes no difference to a lot of fights imo, as if I can’t get you below 50% it does nothing and if I can then odds are I can kill you anyways. Improv would be nice, but stacked against the listed benefits of acro, I can live without it. For minor traits, I have weakness on sword auto and from daredevil anyways, the poison is nice but is pretty minor, and 10% damage when the enemy has a condition is made up in DD taking bound over dash.

Of course, this is all based on a sword build. D/P has built in stealth, no need for bound, and less access to weakness, so it probably benefits more from DA. It still works well with bound and acro though. Like I say, it depends on your outlook. I tend to play tankier thief builds as I don’t like to gank especially, and I can still hit for 6-8k on pistol whip not counting bound and interrupt damage with 2.7-2.8k armor and 16k health, I don’t see a point in making myself any glassier tbh.

Jugglemonkey.8741:

rennlc.7346:

Bad? I don’t know. It’s almost universally worse than DA, Trickery, and DD though.

It depends on your outlook. I run bound with S/P for the stealth access, so two big problems with my build when roaming are swiftness access and immobilise since I don’t have dash. Acro with pack runes and withdraw deals with both of those problems nicely, and it gives me a free stunbreak, endurance refill and condi cleanse to boot.

Things I miss out on: Mug (made up for with draining sigil), panic strike (made up for with careful used of sword 2 and shortbow sneak attacks), and improv/executioner. Executioner makes no difference to a lot of fights imo, as if I can’t get you below 50% it does nothing and if I can then odds are I can kill you anyways. Improv would be nice, but stacked against the listed benefits of acro, I can live without it. For minor traits, I have weakness on sword auto and from daredevil anyways, the poison is nice but is pretty minor, and 10% damage when the enemy has a condition is made up in DD taking bound over dash.

Of course, this is all based on a sword build. D/P has built in stealth, no need for bound, and less access to weakness, so it probably benefits more from DA. It still works well with bound and acro though. Like I say, it depends on your outlook. I tend to play tankier thief builds as I don’t like to gank especially, and I can still hit for 6-8k on pistol whip not counting bound and interrupt damage with 2.7-2.8k armor and 16k health, I don’t see a point in making myself any glassier tbh.

Thanks for the insight

I suggest to read my topic about the recent thief changes. Link in my signature.

MadVisions.4529:

I suggest to read my topic about the recent thief changes. Link in my signature.

Ok I’ve read your thread. It was informative. What about Critical Strikes?

Bleyd.9470:

MadVisions.4529:

I suggest to read my topic about the recent thief changes. Link in my signature.

Ok I’ve read your thread. It was informative. What about Critical Strikes?

It’s an underperforming trait line that makes too many sacrifices for paltry increases in damage and doesn’t provide enough reward in sustain against most of the meta.

CS is only “good” in WvW on builds dedicated to try and one-shot opponents. Since CS only modifies outgoing damage, and stats in sPvP are strictly much, much lower than PvE and WvW, the scaling-damage approach fails miserably, as 50% of a low number increase in damage is still a low number.

Bleyd.9470:

Btw what do you guys think about runes of the scraper? I just wasted money on scholar runes and though you somehow hit a lil bit more harder, you can get wrecked so hard if you screw up that I am thinking about getting a lil bit more durability

Exuberance on power builds with Marauder or Zerk/Valk combination. The DPS drop is minimal but the extra 1750 health is a great buffer for condi and power spikes.

Bleyd.9470:

rennlc.7346:

Bad? I don’t know. It’s almost universally worse than DA, Trickery, and DD though.

Ok but why? It is easy to say “It’s almost universallay worse” without any explication.

Trial and error. Acro is an error.

I really can not see any point in running 2 trait lines that give out so much endurance. Dd alone with bountiful theft is more then enough endurance, now include signet of agility into the build and you should have no problems. Acro is also a huge dmg loss too, would be much better going cs or da.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

I really can not see any point in running 2 trait lines that give out so much endurance. Dd alone with bountiful theft is more then enough endurance, now include signet of agility into the build and you should have no problems. Acro is also a huge dmg loss too, would be much better going cs or da.

Not if your dodges do considerable damage. It wasn’t the original point of the thread, but with Lotus Training, some venom skills, and other stuff, you can crank out a lot of dps without using a single drop of initiative. It’s dps, healing, boons, initiative, condi clear all off of a single dodge. And you haven’t even touched your #1-5 skills or your steal. With that much endurance and vigor, it’s a limitless source for all the things I listed.

Edit: check out the convo in https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Does-Lotus-Training-Stack/first#post6226199.

bearshaman.3421:

Not if your dodges do considerable damage. It wasn’t the original point of the thread, but with Lotus Training, some venom skills, and other stuff, you can crank out a lot of dps without using a single drop of initiative.

This. Acro doesn’t have obvious direct damagers so many overlook it. What is does is allow other lines to focus less on defense and more on offense particularly Dare Devil traits such as Havoc Mastery/Staff Mastery/Bound for some crazy good AoE damage.

When running Acro with Staff, players can stay in near perma-evade between dodges and Vault. This allows a thief to stay in on multiple targets rather than burst and leave. It also allows them to ditch the Shortbow and pick up a broader weaponset like P/P or D/P.

Pain Response is crazy good and Hard to Catch is both a great defensive skill and when running Bound or Lotus a potentially big damager as well.

The added utility of dodge , as offered up by the DD line and those on evade procs , make it more than just a way to evade a given attack.

As example P/P build with bounding dodger traited now has ready access to stealth. Now you can certainly gain tht stealth without having to go the Acro line , but then there less dodges overall for that stealth. Very much like a steal turned into something else by the traits that proc when one steals, a dodge is something else entirely when it procs all of those other benefits.

Acro provides not only more dodges, but more benefits from the same. To me the reason why one would want the acro line is very much like the reasons so many would want to lower the cooldown on our steals.

Added to that PR , HTC, upper hand, as a set of traits are incredibly useful.

Acrobatics is in a pretty good spot right now. It’s not going to blow you out of the water with raw power, but the traits have good synergy that you can take advantage of.

I think making good use of it requires running staff, but that it is quite good when you do so. To take full advantage of it you need to be able to use bound, meaning giving up the immobilize breaking of Unhindered Combatant. Staff 3 is a reasonable substitute for this. You also need access to a strong, initiative spending evasion skill, which only staff provides with Vault (both of the sword dual attacks evade, but are middling skills rather than the powerhouse that is Vault). The combination of a spammable evasion skill and Bound unleash Feline Grace and Upper Hand.

These together give you a very good small scale or dueling build with a nice balance of offense and defense. I do not think you’ll see it in WTS any time soon – the tools Deadly Arts provides are just too good for +1ing fights – but if you’re looking for something to roam with, or to hold out and win 1v1s, acrobatics is a perfectly good set of tools to use.

problem is
you don’t dish out enough burst damage and you don’t have enough utility if you take acrobat over trickery or deadly art

lighter.2708:

problem is
you don’t dish out enough burst damage and you don’t have enough utility if you take acrobat over trickery or deadly art

Tbh, panic strike is the main thing I miss. You don’t realise how many kills that trait gets you til you play without it for a while.

That said, the main thing you’re swapping is executioner and mug for bound and swindler’s equilibrium, in terms of burst damage. It’s more of a bruiser type build though, so it isn’t focussed on burst so naturally lends itself better to sword and staff than dagger. It depends on your playstyle which you’d prefer, that doesn’t mean it’s not viable.

A lot of top tier thieves run Improvisation over Executioner, so the damage you are giving up from swapping Deadly Arts is just the 10% vs conditioned foes from Exposed Weakness and the extra punch of Mug. Yes, you’re giving up a bit of damage swapping from DA to Acrobatics, but it’s not a huge difference. Mostly you notice the lack of Mug and Panic Strike, which are really, really good when punching a low health target that is already engaged – but in a longer fight you don’t really miss the stuff in Deadly Arts.

Again, I would only look at it with staff – Dagger clearly wants to burst with DA, and S/x doesn’t deal enough damage to make any sacrifices for more utility.

D/D would work fine, especially in a condi build of this with #3 skill counting as an evade and putting out respectable bleed to multiple targets, as well as taking Lotus Training and other stuff. I would of course use staff as the other weapon, and maybe keep a pistol or two to swap out with.

bearshaman.3421:

D/D would work fine, especially in a condi build of this with #3 skill counting as an evade and putting out respectable bleed to multiple targets, as well as taking Lotus Training and other stuff. I would of course use staff as the other weapon, and maybe keep a pistol or two to swap out with.

If you’re already going for lotus training, shortbow is actually a better swap than staff imo. Reason being the poison fields from choking gas work really well with the projectile finishers of the daggers from lotus training, it’s a hefty chunk of extra DPS and makes cleansing the bleeds that much harder.

Acrobatics is insane with paladin amul and staff giving exellent sustain, easy 2v1 but it is hard to kill enemies, but its near impossible to kill u. U win every duel but it takes a long time so not rly worth it. better dps

Jugglemonkey.8741:

bearshaman.3421:

D/D would work fine, especially in a condi build of this with #3 skill counting as an evade and putting out respectable bleed to multiple targets, as well as taking Lotus Training and other stuff. I would of course use staff as the other weapon, and maybe keep a pistol or two to swap out with.

If you’re already going for lotus training, shortbow is actually a better swap than staff imo. Reason being the poison fields from choking gas work really well with the projectile finishers of the daggers from lotus training, it’s a hefty chunk of extra DPS and makes cleansing the bleeds that much harder.

That probably makes sense for pvp. I’m not a pvper, so condi cleansing isn’t a problem I have to plan around when applying them.