Guild Wars 2

Sanduskel.1850:

I agree. this was an excellent way to nerf that hated perma stealth spec without wrecking all other specs.

Now if only you knew what you were talking about.

Dee Jay.2460:

Arganthium.5638:

Dee Jay.2460:

Imagi.4561:

Sanduskel.1850:

his math was…..flawed.

If the math is flawed, then by all means redo it and post your calculations. I’d be very interested to see them.

The math may be correct, but it doesn’t relate to game-play.

Most theorycrafting assume some sort of tank and spank scenario because real game-play has too many variables. But guess what, more so than in any other MMO you are constantly moving and dodging in GW2.

Especially in PvP which seems to be the biggest concern for most. And that’s where we will end up with equal or more Initiative to blow. And for every Dodge we lose because of the Vigor nerf we gain an extra Lancerous Strike.

So it’s really not as a cut & dry as people are making it out to be.

So you’re one of those people.

My first request would be for you to identify one of the “too many variables” that you identified, and then justify how theorycrafting cannot practically identify its effects.

Quite simple.

Someone calculates that we have less effective Initative now, due to the “Initiative on Crit” nerf. This is assuming we are standing still and constantly attacking a target.

Thus they conclude this is a nerf.

In practice however a S/D Thief for example might only have 50% DPS time on a target, maybe even less. The rest of the time is spent dodging, shadowstepping and stealthing.

Even in PvE I never sit and hit for longer than a few seconds at a time. So the theorycrafting doesn’t really apply. It’s not that it’s wrong, it just makes too broad assumptions.

I’m convinced we will have a much more comfortable Initiative cushion, especially in sPvP, than prior. In PvE it will be slightly less noticeable and probably feel more or less the same.

I don’t think we will actually find ourselves with less Initiative, exception being D/P.

You forget to take into account all of the other traits thieves have. Most of them are not worth slotting because most of them do not noticeably affect our overall gameplay. And I explained this to the devs before… “Thieves choose initiative regen because every other trait is either situational or useless.”

However, they are cutting initiative gain by half while increasing regen back to 1/sec from .75/sec. A 33% increase in exchange for a 50% decrease. And this update only positively affects builds that don’t use much initiative (p/d mainly) which tend to be sub-par. The buff is just slight, however, and somewhat negligible.

Regardless what anyone thinks, they’ve effectively nerfed this profession into the ground is those initiative traits go through. Every degree of thief theorycrafter knew this.

Maesk.8753:

Dragonax.6487:

As a warrior main, I agree that D/D thief no longer need nerf, in fact they could use a bit of buff. The P/D condition thief on the other hand, need serious nerfs: Almost perma stealth, almost perma blind, 3 k armor, ranged, ignore opponent armor, that’s just too much. I test it in PvP and have been murdering people without even trying.

Pro tip, condi thieves have been around forever.

As for your argument…
>Almost perma stealth
Same amount of stealth as d/d
>Almost perma Blind
A d/d thief can do this too
>ranged
Other classes can use ranged weapons, why is it op when a thief does it?
>Ignores armor
Again, this isn’t just a thief thing, all condi ignores armor.
>3k armor
Thank Anet for the introduction of dire gear, before it every condi thief ran carrion.

So anyway, the reason why the number of condi thieves is on the rise is because post patch, mainhand sword and off hand pistol will be subpar. So we’re left with d/d and p/d.
Also, p/d set got 2 buffs a little while ago, making them a bit more effective.

I have to disagree with your opinion about the blind and the ranged:

-P/D thief has more blind than DD, that’s obvious

-Do you realize that having an effective ranged build for a class that has high mobility and can stay invisible for a very long time is no different from giving them God mode ?

Since there is no real counter to stealth, they can easily keep the distance.

And if u manage to get close during their short period without stealth, they can blind you or just use their mobility to get away before keeping up their barely different from cheating routine.

Even if u somehow manage to catch and deal damage to them you will realize that they can take quite a few hit.

What even worse is that they have access to some sick conditions like torment (punish you heavily for trying to chase them ), poison (sry no healing allowed here ).

Dragonax.6487:

Maesk.8753:

Dragonax.6487:

As a warrior main, I agree that D/D thief no longer need nerf, in fact they could use a bit of buff. The P/D condition thief on the other hand, need serious nerfs: Almost perma stealth, almost perma blind, 3 k armor, ranged, ignore opponent armor, that’s just too much. I test it in PvP and have been murdering people without even trying.

Pro tip, condi thieves have been around forever.

As for your argument…
>Almost perma stealth
Same amount of stealth as d/d
>Almost perma Blind
A d/d thief can do this too
>ranged
Other classes can use ranged weapons, why is it op when a thief does it?
>Ignores armor
Again, this isn’t just a thief thing, all condi ignores armor.
>3k armor
Thank Anet for the introduction of dire gear, before it every condi thief ran carrion.

So anyway, the reason why the number of condi thieves is on the rise is because post patch, mainhand sword and off hand pistol will be subpar. So we’re left with d/d and p/d.
Also, p/d set got 2 buffs a little while ago, making them a bit more effective.

I have to disagree with your opinion about the blind and the ranged:

-P/D thief has more blind than DD, that’s obvious

-Do you realize that having an effective ranged build for a class that has high mobility and can stay invisible for a very long time is no different from giving them God mode ?

Since there is no real counter to stealth, they can easily keep the distance.

And if u manage to get close during their short period without stealth, they can blind you or just use their mobility to get away before keeping up their barely different from cheating routine.

Even if u somehow manage to catch and deal damage to them you will realize that they can take quite a few hit.

What even worse is that they have access to some sick conditions like torment (punish you heavily for trying to chase them ), poison (sry no healing allowed here ).

So, heres the thing. Neither d/d or p/d has blind on their weapon skills. The only way for either of those sets to blind someone is by traits or utilities, which aren’t weapon exclusive. I suggest you do a little research before calling a class OP.

Also, I have 1v1’d condi thieves and won. Does that make me a god?

There is a counter to stealth, it’s called learning to play against it. For an x/D thief to stealth, they need to get within 130 range of you, and if they’re that close to you, then they’re probably doing for a cloak and dagger. Block it, evade it, blind it, CC it. You said you’re a warrior main, why not break out some of that cc you guys have? Or blocks?

Torment is a strong condition, yes, but not as strong as burning, which a lot of other classes have access to, but thieves don’t.

The poison argument is valid, but since you play a warrior, poison is one of the few (if not the only) ways to counter healsig. So.. Yeah.

Dragonax.6487:

Maesk.8753:

Dragonax.6487:

As a warrior main, I agree that D/D thief no longer need nerf, in fact they could use a bit of buff. The P/D condition thief on the other hand, need serious nerfs: Almost perma stealth, almost perma blind, 3 k armor, ranged, ignore opponent armor, that’s just too much. I test it in PvP and have been murdering people without even trying.

Pro tip, condi thieves have been around forever.

As for your argument…
>Almost perma stealth
Same amount of stealth as d/d
>Almost perma Blind
A d/d thief can do this too
>ranged
Other classes can use ranged weapons, why is it op when a thief does it?
>Ignores armor
Again, this isn’t just a thief thing, all condi ignores armor.
>3k armor
Thank Anet for the introduction of dire gear, before it every condi thief ran carrion.

So anyway, the reason why the number of condi thieves is on the rise is because post patch, mainhand sword and off hand pistol will be subpar. So we’re left with d/d and p/d.
Also, p/d set got 2 buffs a little while ago, making them a bit more effective.

I have to disagree with your opinion about the blind and the ranged:

-P/D thief has more blind than DD, that’s obvious

-Do you realize that having an effective ranged build for a class that has high mobility and can stay invisible for a very long time is no different from giving them God mode ?

Since there is no real counter to stealth, they can easily keep the distance.

And if u manage to get close during their short period without stealth, they can blind you or just use their mobility to get away before keeping up their barely different from cheating routine.

Even if u somehow manage to catch and deal damage to them you will realize that they can take quite a few hit.

What even worse is that they have access to some sick conditions like torment (punish you heavily for trying to chase them ), poison (sry no healing allowed here ).

As mentioned above me, P/D is really only semi-ranged as they need to be in melee to stealth. I thought I would reiterate it. Dodge/block the CnD and they can’t do much against you. Their access to torment is also melee range.

Maesk.8753:

So, heres the thing. Neither d/d or p/d has blind on their weapon skills. The only way for either of those sets to blind someone is by traits or utilities, which aren’t weapon exclusive. I suggest you do a little research before calling a class OP.

Also, I have 1v1’d condi thieves and won. Does that make me a god?

There is a counter to stealth, it’s called learning to play against it. For an x/D thief to stealth, they need to get within 130 range of you, and if they’re that close to you, then they’re probably doing for a cloak and dagger. Block it, evade it, blind it, CC it. You said you’re a warrior main, why not break out some of that cc you guys have? Or blocks?

Torment is a strong condition, yes, but not as strong as burning, which a lot of other classes have access to, but thieves don’t.

The poison argument is valid, but since you play a warrior, poison is one of the few (if not the only) ways to counter healsig. So.. Yeah.

Funny that u tell me to do research when clearly forget a few things yourself:

-Condition thief always run condi duration food, in addition to the Runes, stat allocation etc , they normally always have 50-70 % longer blind duration
-They have access to Cloaked in Shadow, which give 6-7 sec more blind on stealth, as well as Last Refuge minor trait. DD thief can also run this but it’s not common as far as I know.

So pls research the build more before you talk

About the Dagger 5, try playing Warrior sometimes and see how easy it is to avoid it, especially if the thief can stealth near u before doing it. And it has a rather short 6 sec cool down

I killed PD thief sometimes too, but it’s mostly because either the players behind it were pretty poor and made some nooby mistakes or if I run full counter build with Melandru Rune, multiple condition removers and -40% condition duration food. Still, in both case it normally take pretty long and frustrating fights to kill them and I still lose more than win. If it was any other builds I can safely say that I would get most of them in less than 10 sec.

Dragonax.6487:

Maesk.8753:

So, heres the thing. Neither d/d or p/d has blind on their weapon skills. The only way for either of those sets to blind someone is by traits or utilities, which aren’t weapon exclusive. I suggest you do a little research before calling a class OP.

Also, I have 1v1’d condi thieves and won. Does that make me a god?

There is a counter to stealth, it’s called learning to play against it. For an x/D thief to stealth, they need to get within 130 range of you, and if they’re that close to you, then they’re probably doing for a cloak and dagger. Block it, evade it, blind it, CC it. You said you’re a warrior main, why not break out some of that cc you guys have? Or blocks?

Torment is a strong condition, yes, but not as strong as burning, which a lot of other classes have access to, but thieves don’t.

The poison argument is valid, but since you play a warrior, poison is one of the few (if not the only) ways to counter healsig. So.. Yeah.

Funny that u tell me to do research when clearly forget a few things yourself:

-Condition thief always run condi duration food, in addition to the Runes, stat allocation etc , they normally always have 50-70 % longer blind duration
-They have access to Cloaked in Shadow, which give 6-7 sec more blind on stealth, as well as Last Refuge minor trait. DD thief can also run this but it’s not common as far as I know.

So pls research the build more before you talk

About the Dagger 5, try playing Warrior sometimes and see how easy it is to avoid it, especially if the thief do it while in stealth. Also, it has a rather short 6 sec cool down

I killed PD thief sometimes too, but it’s mostly because either the players behind it were pretty poor and made some nooby mistakes or if I run full counter build with Melandru Rune, multiple condition removers and -40% condition duration food. Still, in both case it normally take pretty long and frustrating fights to kill them and I still lose more than win. If it was any other builds I can safely say that I would get most of them in less than 10 sec.

Fair enough call on the duration of the blinds, but they still have the same amount of access to blinds as a d/d thief.

I’ve seen plenty of thieves who rune cloaked in shadow and last refuge as a burst spec. Since both of those traits are in shadow arts and both builds use that line I dont see why you couldn’t run it.

I’ve played warrior, and it was stupidly easy to kill thieves. The whole class was actually pretty easy. Very very forgiving too. Also, how exactly do thieves use cloak and dagger from stealth? Unless you mean chaining it off of you, in which case maybe you should move around more.

But I mean, sure. Lets nerf another viable thief build into the ground, so you can kill thieves with ease.

:^)

Maesk.8753:

Dragonax.6487:

Maesk.8753:

So, heres the thing. Neither d/d or p/d has blind on their weapon skills. The only way for either of those sets to blind someone is by traits or utilities, which aren’t weapon exclusive. I suggest you do a little research before calling a class OP.

Also, I have 1v1’d condi thieves and won. Does that make me a god?

There is a counter to stealth, it’s called learning to play against it. For an x/D thief to stealth, they need to get within 130 range of you, and if they’re that close to you, then they’re probably doing for a cloak and dagger. Block it, evade it, blind it, CC it. You said you’re a warrior main, why not break out some of that cc you guys have? Or blocks?

Torment is a strong condition, yes, but not as strong as burning, which a lot of other classes have access to, but thieves don’t.

The poison argument is valid, but since you play a warrior, poison is one of the few (if not the only) ways to counter healsig. So.. Yeah.

Funny that u tell me to do research when clearly forget a few things yourself:

-Condition thief always run condi duration food, in addition to the Runes, stat allocation etc , they normally always have 50-70 % longer blind duration
-They have access to Cloaked in Shadow, which give 6-7 sec more blind on stealth, as well as Last Refuge minor trait. DD thief can also run this but it’s not common as far as I know.

So pls research the build more before you talk

About the Dagger 5, try playing Warrior sometimes and see how easy it is to avoid it, especially if the thief do it while in stealth. Also, it has a rather short 6 sec cool down

I killed PD thief sometimes too, but it’s mostly because either the players behind it were pretty poor and made some nooby mistakes or if I run full counter build with Melandru Rune, multiple condition removers and -40% condition duration food. Still, in both case it normally take pretty long and frustrating fights to kill them and I still lose more than win. If it was any other builds I can safely say that I would get most of them in less than 10 sec.

Fair enough call on the duration of the blinds, but they still have the same amount of access to blinds as a d/d thief.

I’ve seen plenty of thieves who rune cloaked in shadow and last refuge as a burst spec. Since both of those traits are in shadow arts and both builds use that line I dont see why you couldn’t run it.

I’ve played warrior, and it was stupidly easy to kill thieves. The whole class was actually pretty easy. Very very forgiving too. Also, how exactly do thieves use cloak and dagger from stealth? Unless you mean chaining it off of you, in which case maybe you should move around more.

But I mean, sure. Lets nerf another viable thief build into the ground, so you can kill thieves with ease.

:^)

I bet you only say thief is weak because you main thief. Surely DD thief no longer as powerful as before but a skilled DD can still be a monstrosity (While the noobs can no longer have free win with it, which is a good thing )

But PD condi thief is not only viable, it’s rather stupidly easy ( probably even more than Condi Necro, those are easy to play but can also be countered effectively )

Dragonax.6487:

Maesk.8753:

Dragonax.6487:

Maesk.8753:

So, heres the thing. Neither d/d or p/d has blind on their weapon skills. The only way for either of those sets to blind someone is by traits or utilities, which aren’t weapon exclusive. I suggest you do a little research before calling a class OP.

Also, I have 1v1’d condi thieves and won. Does that make me a god?

There is a counter to stealth, it’s called learning to play against it. For an x/D thief to stealth, they need to get within 130 range of you, and if they’re that close to you, then they’re probably doing for a cloak and dagger. Block it, evade it, blind it, CC it. You said you’re a warrior main, why not break out some of that cc you guys have? Or blocks?

Torment is a strong condition, yes, but not as strong as burning, which a lot of other classes have access to, but thieves don’t.

The poison argument is valid, but since you play a warrior, poison is one of the few (if not the only) ways to counter healsig. So.. Yeah.

Funny that u tell me to do research when clearly forget a few things yourself:

-Condition thief always run condi duration food, in addition to the Runes, stat allocation etc , they normally always have 50-70 % longer blind duration
-They have access to Cloaked in Shadow, which give 6-7 sec more blind on stealth, as well as Last Refuge minor trait. DD thief can also run this but it’s not common as far as I know.

So pls research the build more before you talk

About the Dagger 5, try playing Warrior sometimes and see how easy it is to avoid it, especially if the thief do it while in stealth. Also, it has a rather short 6 sec cool down

I killed PD thief sometimes too, but it’s mostly because either the players behind it were pretty poor and made some nooby mistakes or if I run full counter build with Melandru Rune, multiple condition removers and -40% condition duration food. Still, in both case it normally take pretty long and frustrating fights to kill them and I still lose more than win. If it was any other builds I can safely say that I would get most of them in less than 10 sec.

Fair enough call on the duration of the blinds, but they still have the same amount of access to blinds as a d/d thief.

I’ve seen plenty of thieves who rune cloaked in shadow and last refuge as a burst spec. Since both of those traits are in shadow arts and both builds use that line I dont see why you couldn’t run it.

I’ve played warrior, and it was stupidly easy to kill thieves. The whole class was actually pretty easy. Very very forgiving too. Also, how exactly do thieves use cloak and dagger from stealth? Unless you mean chaining it off of you, in which case maybe you should move around more.

But I mean, sure. Lets nerf another viable thief build into the ground, so you can kill thieves with ease.

:^)

I bet you only say thief is weak because you main thief. Surely DD thief no longer as powerful as before but a skilled DD can still be a monstrosity (While the noobs can no longer have free win with it, which is a good thing )

But PD condi thief is not only viable, it’s rather stupidly easy ( probably even more than Condi Necro, those are easy to play but can also be countered effectively )

Go to the sPVP forum, theres a thread right now called “Class Tier List- Post December 10th Patch”. Have a look at where people place thief.

And like I said earlier, condi thief has been pretty much the same for a while, why are you only just complaining about it now?

As for it being easy and effective, are there currently a lot of other build the same? Why is it thief that needs a nerf?

Anyway, I think I’m done arguing with a warrior (of all people) who thinks thieves are op. Im out.

My main is thief,since the release of the game and I have 3 alts-ranger,necro,engi and I split my gaming time between pve and spvp,so I have a pretty clear view of the capabilities of most classes in all game aspects.

Thief right now is making me sad.I wouldn’t really care about the stealth nerfs,happening these months,if we HAD REASONABLE relative easy accessable damage output.In high end pve we are forced most of the time to play ranged,cause we get instakilled IF you are equipped for “high dmg” which is even lower than warrior’s output.If you are equipped to survive in PvE and want to go melee,better don’t.Still you will do more ranged with zerk.

So what’s actually the concept of a thief overall,not just in GW2,but in similliar other games.THEY DO DAMAGE,THEY ARE MOBILE and easy to kill if not careful.
We need completely redesigned venoms.I mean what the f*** is in the developers heads with this bunch of crap about kittens a venom,which in pve is a joke,in pvp if u get the first hit off,all others get blocked/evaded and you are just left behind with useless bunch of utility.Unable to chase,unable to do real nuke damage.
We need a grandmaster or a combination of grandmaster traits,which unlocks a special critical damage %,that should be at least 1.5x or even 2x greater than a normal zerk build(on any profession) with a proc chance of 7-10 % and cd 2 sec for example.This is a concept of a thief based hero overall in this type of games.

By now our damage was always and still is quite dependable on stealth and I agree stealth should not be perma-spamable,but it’s nonsence to nerf stealths and leave us with crap like these venoms both in pve and pvp and have the same critical damage % as any other profession.
People don’t play this type of profession in any game to do conditions like in ice drake venom?!(3 attacks ?!?!?!) or torment?!We play it because we should be able to do HIGHER than other classes pure or critical damage.

Travlane.5948:

seen a few comments about changing up skills between PVE/PVP.. and my answer is…

YOU ARE NOT A THIEF>>>>>>>>>>>>

so obvious. PVE is worse than PVP…almost… try getting into high lvl fractals. everyon keeps kicking you. i have 55 AR almost my 4th legendary and full ascended. im expereienced and lvl 45. no excuse for that. thats not bc we suck its bc the way anet made us. they made us to be assassins and they took that away with the nerfs to mug, HS, BS, CND…… now we are a shadow of a good character.

I (EU) don’t have that issue, must be some individual (or NA?) problem.

Yes, having more than 1 thief usually sucks, but that is also the case for other classes and especially in fractals thieves are very useful.
Generally, in pve thieves are far away from the bottom tier which is necromancer and
engineer. The bad reputation is probably due to thieves being squishy and therefore dead more often than equally bad/good warriors; failed dodges are just more obvious but that does not make the class bad/worse.

Concerning the shadow return nerf, I am wondering how egocentric people have to be to think that spamable “ohsit-buttons” are good for pvp balance in a game whose combat is based on reward/punishment. /randomNumberOfCrybabiesIncoming
Well yes, announced implementation is bad but what do you expect from a company that can’t even implement a proper search algorithm or even font/interface scaling (trading post).
Vigor nerf happens if you, at first, design a trait that grants a massive amount of dodges when combined with vigor and then decide that it actually grants too many dodges, kinda sucks for everyone who does not want to put 15 points into acrobatics but well yeah… anet.

Don’t expect me to argue with the average biased poster, who considers his class incredibly underpowered, in this subforum; I simply gave my opinion on this subject and have no interest in quote/forum wars. thank you.

I’m just going to leave this here

Dee Jay.2460:

Arganthium.5638:

Dee Jay.2460:

Imagi.4561:

Sanduskel.1850:

his math was…..flawed.

If the math is flawed, then by all means redo it and post your calculations. I’d be very interested to see them.

The math may be correct, but it doesn’t relate to game-play.

Most theorycrafting assume some sort of tank and spank scenario because real game-play has too many variables. But guess what, more so than in any other MMO you are constantly moving and dodging in GW2.

Especially in PvP which seems to be the biggest concern for most. And that’s where we will end up with equal or more Initiative to blow. And for every Dodge we lose because of the Vigor nerf we gain an extra Lancerous Strike.

So it’s really not as a cut & dry as people are making it out to be.

So you’re one of those people.

My first request would be for you to identify one of the “too many variables” that you identified, and then justify how theorycrafting cannot practically identify its effects.

Quite simple.

Someone calculates that we have less effective Initative now, due to the “Initiative on Crit” nerf. This is assuming we are standing still and constantly attacking a target.

Thus they conclude this is a nerf.

In practice however a S/D Thief for example might only have 50% DPS time on a target, maybe even less. The rest of the time is spent dodging, shadowstepping and stealthing.

Even in PvE I never sit and hit for longer than a few seconds at a time. So the theorycrafting doesn’t really apply. It’s not that it’s wrong, it just makes too broad assumptions.

I’m convinced we will have a much more comfortable Initiative cushion, especially in sPvP, than prior. In PvE it will be slightly less noticeable and probably feel more or less the same.

I don’t think we will actually find ourselves with less Initiative, exception being D/P.

Except that’s not how initiative (at least, from Opportunist) is/should be calculated; it should be calculated by the average number of hits per second, which would give a better idea of how many initiative per second you’re going to get from Opportunist in the long run.

I’m not going to stand on any particular side of the more initiative/less initiative debate, as the question in and of itself ought to be based in the context of individual builds than in the context of the profession in its entirety. What I will say, however, is that some builds, such as my own, are indeed going to be taking an initiative nerf overall, and that the Opportunist change is going to be a fairly significant nerf to initiative as well (can’t do the math quite precisely ATM, but I can tell from past experiences that it will be). In any case, don’t be too hasty to assume about a subject for which you seem to have so little knowledge.

Thieves are fine in the right hands, and anet will make them better this month. I look forward to the changes.

Sanduskel.1850:

Thieves are fine in the right hands, and anet will make them better this month. I look forward to the changes.

Thieves are incredibly strong in the hands of a skilled player. There’s just not very many good thieves.

December 10, 2013

• Sword—Shadow Return: Renamed to Infiltrator’s Return. Added a .25-second cast time.
• Critical Strikes VIII—Signet Use: Reduced the initiative gain from 2 to 1.
• Critical Strikes 15—Opportunist: Increased the trigger chance to 50%. Increased the cooldown from 1 second to 5 seconds.
• Shadow Arts V—Infusion of Shadow: Increased the amount of initiative gained to 2, but only when entering stealth.
• Acrobatics III—Vigorous Recovery: Reduced the vigor duration from 8 seconds to 5 seconds.
• Trickery 5— – Kleptomaniac: Reduced the initiative gain from 3 to 2.
• Trickery VII—Bountiful Theft: Reduced the vigor duration from 15 seconds to 10 seconds.

Shadow Arts V—Infusion of Shadow: Increased the amount of initiative gained to 2, but only when entering stealth.

Atleast they increased the amount of initiative gain to 2.

Now that I see this, I am truly sad.

MatthijsB.4731:

Shadow Arts V—Infusion of Shadow: Increased the amount of initiative gained to 2, but only when entering stealth.

Atleast they increased the amount of initiative gain to 2.

But…it was already a 2 initiative gain…

Shadow Arts V—Infusion of Shadow: Increased the amount of initiative gained to 2, but only when entering stealth.

Was it not 2 init before!?

Dahkeus.8243:

MatthijsB.4731:

Shadow Arts V—Infusion of Shadow: Increased the amount of initiative gained to 2, but only when entering stealth.

Atleast they increased the amount of initiative gain to 2.

But…it was already a 2 initiative gain…

no no, shh shh, they are buffing us.

Epic. We already knew that they don’t play the thief class… But, was it necessary to make it obvious?

xmtrcv.5236:

Thief

Also, we are trying to improve the survivability of thieves in the Acrobatics line through easier access to the Hard to Catch trait and increased effectiveness of the Assassin’s Reward trait.

The senseless statmen i had ever heard. Can enyone in anet explainme how putting HtC in master tier will help me to survive? is so stupid, more than stupid, is insulting.

Yeah what is up with that Infusion of Shadow “increase”? It always has given us 2 initiative.

placeboing.3896:

Yeah what is up with that Infusion of Shadow “increase”? It always has given us 2 initiative.

Typo maybe ? Gonna check in game.

yay infusion of shadow got buffed. ty men.

ANet gg. As always.

Well pvp MH sword isn’t a choice anymore

xmtrcv.5236:

• Dancing Dagger: Updated the cripple skill fact to display the proper duration.

So instead of actually fixing this, they just alter their tooltip?

Dahkeus.8243:

MatthijsB.4731:

Shadow Arts V—Infusion of Shadow: Increased the amount of initiative gained to 2, but only when entering stealth.

Atleast they increased the amount of initiative gain to 2.

But…it was already a 2 initiative gain…

lol…

muscarine.5136:

placeboing.3896:

Yeah what is up with that Infusion of Shadow “increase”? It always has given us 2 initiative.

Typo maybe ? Gonna check in game.

not a typo… they really buffed it to 2 ! lolol

At least skelk venom is better than advertised.

Daendur.2357:

muscarine.5136:

placeboing.3896:

Yeah what is up with that Infusion of Shadow “increase”? It always has given us 2 initiative.

Typo maybe ? Gonna check in game.

not a typo… they really buffed it to 2 ! lolol

I don’t understand, honestly, with how this forum is flooded with tears, making such a mistake…

muscarine.5136:

placeboing.3896:

Yeah what is up with that Infusion of Shadow “increase”? It always has given us 2 initiative.

Typo maybe ? Gonna check in game.

I just checked, I see only 2 initiative regen.

Shadow Arts V—Infusion of Shadow: Increased the amount of initiative gained to 2, but only when entering stealth

um its was always 2 are they trying to make this sound better than it is?

This entire patch is just……sad really. After all this time, all this fighting with us here on the forums over the patch, etc……they went ahead full speed with not a single alteration to what they originally wanted to do. I guess the balance team truly lives in wonderland. I would have a few words of wisdom to impart to some ppl but i fear i’ll get infracted or banned if i do.

Brick Tamland.6507:

Dahkeus.8243:

MatthijsB.4731:

Shadow Arts V—Infusion of Shadow: Increased the amount of initiative gained to 2, but only when entering stealth.

Atleast they increased the amount of initiative gain to 2.

But…it was already a 2 initiative gain…

no no, shh shh, they are buffing us.

Is not buff. Is a MASSSSSSSIVE buff.

fefefelix.4370:

Is not buff. Is a MASSSSSSSIVE buff.

They can take their MASSSSIVE BUFF and s……calm down, calm down, don’t get infracted, zennnnnn…ok i’m good.

So much nerf….Merry Wintersday everyone.

Increased the base rate of initiative gain from .75 per second to 1 per second.

Pistol—Pistol Whip: Reduced the aftercast on the first half of this skill by .25 seconds.

Deadly Arts VI—Sundering Strikes: Increased the trigger chance from 33% to 50%. Removed the internal cooldown. Decreased the vulnerability duration from 14 seconds to 6 seconds.

Critical Strikes VI—Practiced Tolerance: Increased the conversion from 5% to 7%.

Critical Strike X—Critical Haste: Increased the trigger chance to 25%.

Acrobatics X—Hard to Catch: Moved to the Master tier.Acrobatics XI—

Assassin’s Reward: Increased the scaling with healing power by 35%. Moved to the Grandmaster tier.

These seem like nice buffs to me! Opens up some different traits to try. I’m happy

you do realize HtC gets you killed 80% of the time, AR is a very subpar heal, S/p is barely functional so the buff to pistol whip is useless, PT will barely give you a few hundred hp even with full berserker. So basically only 2 of those are buffs and even those are debatable.

Tremain.4623:

At least skelk venom is better than advertised.

really ? same heal as withdraw + 4*760 (if they don’t block, evade) but on a triple cooldown + 1s cast time and no condition remover…

xmtrcv.5236:

• Acrobatics XI—Assassin’s Reward: Increased the scaling with healing power by 35%. Moved to the Grandmaster tier.

Welp, my 0/0/30/20/20 build is destroyed by this. Now I either gotta put 30 points in Acrobatics for this by sacrificing 10 points from Trickery and Bountiful Theft, meaning no more Vigor and extra dodging, or I have to leave it as is and no longer get that extra healing from Assassin’s Reward, which really helped me since I was running a regen build. My Regen build is now nerfed in survival, I’m sad…

RyuDragnier.9476:

xmtrcv.5236:

• Acrobatics XI—Assassin’s Reward: Increased the scaling with healing power by 35%. Moved to the Grandmaster tier.

Welp, my 0/0/30/20/20 build is destroyed by this. Now I either gotta put 30 points in Acrobatics for this by sacrificing 10 points from Trickery and Bountiful Theft, meaning no more Vigor and extra dodging, or I have to leave it as is and no longer get that extra healing from Assassin’s Reward, which really helped me since I was running a regen build. My Regen build is now nerfed in survival, I’m sad…

It should haves stayed at master and they should delete hard to catch altogether.

I would prolly use A reward now if it was master tier

Infusion of Shadow deserved the Nerf.

Sword Nerf is horrible. Smack the person who thought return need a cast time…

Vigor Nerf sucks overall.

Combined all 3 together… And that is where you have a problem. Less dodges in all specs. Less stealth. And gutting sword. S/X is gone. Not only does return have a cast time, you get less vigor time for dodges.

You will not see sword thieves anymore. D/P will almost die out (it was a cheese spec, deal with it). What do we have left? Aggressive D/D that lots of d/p will hate and p/d attrition build that is effective but most will hate it. (Some p/d do ranged I play it in your face like a d/d)

And what did we get? A slight base ini regen? /shrug
Not sure the reasons behind all 3 of the nerfs at once. Should have started at infusion first and let it settle for a bit. Sword/x was not OP. Vigor was fine.

Sizzle Hint.1820:

RyuDragnier.9476:

xmtrcv.5236:

• Acrobatics XI—Assassin’s Reward: Increased the scaling with healing power by 35%. Moved to the Grandmaster tier.

Welp, my 0/0/30/20/20 build is destroyed by this. Now I either gotta put 30 points in Acrobatics for this by sacrificing 10 points from Trickery and Bountiful Theft, meaning no more Vigor and extra dodging, or I have to leave it as is and no longer get that extra healing from Assassin’s Reward, which really helped me since I was running a regen build. My Regen build is now nerfed in survival, I’m sad…

It should haves stayed at master and they should delete hard to catch altogether.

I would prolly use A reward now if it was master tier

My problem is that I would never need Bountiful Theft normally, but since I’m regen build, Vigorous Recovery cannot be procced by Signet of Malice. Meaning I have 0 vigor without Bountiful Theft. I also lose some condition damage if I take 10 out of Trickery, something I don’t want because it gimps my only source of damage output, my conditions. But if I don’t get Assassin’s Reward, my regen is kitten. And taking 10 out of Shadow Arts is not an option, since it takes out the regen in Stealth and that badly needed toughness. Either way, this change has officially nerfed my build…and pretty much the only true regen build I could do.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Sizzle Hint.1820:

RyuDragnier.9476:

xmtrcv.5236:

• Acrobatics XI—Assassin’s Reward: Increased the scaling with healing power by 35%. Moved to the Grandmaster tier.

Welp, my 0/0/30/20/20 build is destroyed by this. Now I either gotta put 30 points in Acrobatics for this by sacrificing 10 points from Trickery and Bountiful Theft, meaning no more Vigor and extra dodging, or I have to leave it as is and no longer get that extra healing from Assassin’s Reward, which really helped me since I was running a regen build. My Regen build is now nerfed in survival, I’m sad…

It should haves stayed at master and they should delete hard to catch altogether.

I would prolly use A reward now if it was master tier

My problem is that I would never need Bountiful Theft normally, but since I’m regen build, Vigorous Recovery cannot be procced by Signet of Malice. Meaning I have 0 vigor without Bountiful Theft. I also lose some condition damage if I take 10 out of Trickery, something I don’t want because it gimps my only source of damage output, my conditions. But if I don’t get Assassin’s Reward, my regen is kitten. And taking 10 out of Shadow Arts is not an option, since it takes out the regen in Stealth and that badly needed toughness. Either way, this change has officially nerfed my build…and pretty much the only true regen build I could do.

you could get Pain Response instead to get the regen boon. I know it’s not as good as A reward but hey atleast something… Also gives more condi cleanse.

I could try that, but it’ll take a few hours in WvW to see if it’s worth the change or not.

Completely pointless profession in its current state. What a shame. I loved it so much, and put so much time in to her, and now after the profession has been constantly broken down and dismantled piece by piece, the Thief is totally useless.

A profession that relies on being stealthy and slippery and a dev comes out and basically says Thieves need to commit more time in (close quarters) combat. lolwut? Nerf and limit the escapes and avoidance and moving traits to shove them down our throats because Thieves are not playing the way the devs want?

I think you’ve spent too much team time on Warriors and expecting Thieves to do what they do. Totally selfish and lazy balancing. That’s because there are no devs committed to the profession, that much is obvious. We are a minor bullet point on an agenda that people just want to get past as soon as possible when discussing changes.

Developers tout “community initiative” to garner feedback from players with respect to their (and other) classes, yet totally, completely, and utterly ignore it. Corporations do it all the time with their company communications regarding changes, in an attempt to bond and relate to employees as a precursor to giving them undesired news, all under the guise of, “We are trying to work with you.”

Same goes for ArenaNet. I’ve never seen so much player interaction and feedback (for the most part, in the positive), attempting to work through/with ArenaNet’s perceived “issues”, with so little developer response and/or action. And when we do, it’s a bullkitten blanket post that addresses none of the concerns the community has at the forefront. (Perma-stealth needed to go, that I do agree with.) Hell, the developer can’t even type a clearly thought out post or responses with proper spelling or grammar. Just a canned introduction to changes and repeated in (the few) responses. Same text that is in the patch notes. A perfect example of “because I said so” development if I ever saw one.

Perhaps if you spent less time on the Living Story (which is trash in that it is really just the same process all over in different areas with different mobs and names) and more time on balance, you would see a change in the community attitude (and not just the Thief one… except maybe Warriors.)

I just wanted to say, as a long time S/P thief, the new PW is pretty solid.

Very true and sad. When Anet buff thief with no hidden nerfs and add more pvp options ill may come back bb.

^ just took the S/P out for a spin and I agree that PW is pretty nice now. It’ll probably go nicely with sundering strikes – time to tinker!

Quick Pockets (init on weapon swap) has had a stealth nerf: 4 > 3 init. I was wrong.