Guild Wars 2

Solori.6025:

We now have a class that completely hardcounters our attempts to backstab by throwing out random AoE.

Lock On can only be procced by flame thrower.

Cynz.9437:

ukuni.8745:

Cynz.9437:

ukuni.8745:

as an engineer i can say dont worry to much, if an engineer wants to give up swiftness just to counter you then just run away because hes not going to catch you anytime soon, that aside lets take another look at that trait, its a passive proc that activates when it hits an enemy in stealth, its going to be pritty easy for yas to counterplay that assuming they take it which is a pritty big if.

if i were you guys id be more worried about engineers taking runes of air with medkit so they have perma swiftness and all the on proc traits they can get so when you do backstab them you kill yourself literally.

essentially if you guys keep playing the way you do then you wont have to worry about this trait, except for occasional 1v1 hero.

the problem is not 1v1 really… you shouldn’t 1v1 engi as thief anway

the problem with that particular trait it removes team support thief would bring to team… no refuge, no 50% dmg redux for teammates :|

Itll only effect 1 person or otherwise engineers would just get around inficting aoe burning with incin powder.

Trait doesn’t state if it is single target or aoe.

It’s specifically worded as “analyze the target”, implying single target. In addition, the functionality mimics that of the analyze tool belt skill, which is single target. So even though no one explicitly answered the question of whether or not it is single target or AoE, the skill seems to imply it is single target. If it was AoE, it would likely have stated “analyze the target and nearby enemies” or something similar with the “nearby” keyword.

I’m curious as to whether or not this actually triggers an “analyze” effect, thus possibly synergizing with certain other traits… didn’t seem like it was set up that way from the description.

I’m really not advocating for this new engi skill, nor do I like the idea of it, but this will also give Thieves practice with using different utilities, other than Shadows refuge, and yes I know it is stealth in general, but shadow refuge is just a big “everyone i’m right here, please AoE for 10secs”

Since I heard about that displacement skill that the revenant will obtain to teleport someone else to a random position, I put refuge on the shelf, and decided shadow trap is much more valuable to me. (But that’s just me)

BrazenNL.9857:

Solori.6025:

We now have a class that completely hardcounters our attempts to backstab by throwing out random AoE.

Lock On can only be procced by flame thrower.

You are 300% wrong

Lock On: Striking a foe in stealth analyzes them, revealing them and inflicting them with 10 stacks of vulnerability for 8 seconds. This trait has a 20 second internal cooldown.

Minus this specific trait I’m thrilled about all the other changes. I hope anet “pulls a 180” on hard counters like this one

Solori.6025:

Shadow.1345:

Counterplay it by not getting hit, kinda like how we have been telling people to counterplay stealth by swinging wildly and not getting hit by backstab.

Sadly it wont be that simple.

Caltrops will reveal you, the dodge bomb will reveal you, there mass amount of spammable AoE will hit you.

We now have a class that completely hardcounters our attempts to backstab by throwing out random AoE.
While honestly, I care very little for the woes of thieves ( I am a mesmer main infiltrator)
I am more concerned with how this invalidates an entire trait line basically every 14seconds (20s ICD -6s Reveal).

This will make stealth play vs an engineer pretty much pointless..
So we will have 3 classes that will basically invalidate stealth as a mechanic.
Hopefully A-net gives us something that makes stealth less important to our burst and DPS.

Sadly it wont be that simple.

Which is the same thing non-thieves have said when we tell them to predict when to dodge and spam attacks to counterplay stealth.

I would be 90% done making quip…… brb…. making bolt.

Solori.6025:

BrazenNL.9857:

Solori.6025:

We now have a class that completely hardcounters our attempts to backstab by throwing out random AoE.

Lock On can only be procced by flame thrower.

You are 300% wrong

Lock On: Striking a foe in stealth analyzes them, revealing them and inflicting them with 10 stacks of vulnerability for 8 seconds. This trait has a 20 second internal cooldown.

You mustn’t take him literally. I think he means if you get hit by a thing other than a flamethrower it’s an l2p issue.

Shadow.1345:

Counterplay it by not getting hit, kinda like how we have been telling people to counterplay stealth by swinging wildly and not getting hit by backstab.

lol funnily enough, swinging wildly will actually be tactical now.

Oh and guys, wait until the flying turrets are revealed for the engie elite spec…

Again, Anet reveals how out of touch they are with their own game.

But but… I don’t like to play s/d And what am I supposed to replace Shadow refuge with?

I think people are way over reacting to this…

I agree:P I mean its not like most Engi’s will pick this trait anyway. Why would you want to waste a trait that is only useful against thieves/mesmers, most engi’s already win fights against thieves and it only revealed one person in teamfights. so I don’t think it will be a major issue.

I must say though that I don’t really like that they focus traits expecially on thieves/mesmers which in my opinion are already a bit on the weaker side when it comes to defense. But maybe I am just a bad thief that is also possible haha.:P

But guys, I wouldn’t worry about it too much, I mean skills like Analyse and Sic Em already exists, but never saw anyone running them:P

Zaerah.1630:

I think people are way over reacting to this…

I have to disagree.
You have to see it this way: Basicly one (MASTER) trait (not even grandmaster trait), hard counters/ destroys an entirely traitline with most of its benefits (except 3 traits) including 2 grandmaster traits + stealth based weaponsets such as d/p.

Hope anet change blinds the way it could be seen in a few tooltips for HoT (blinds could be stacked) or they increase cd (maybe 25-30sec) for lock on/ or decrease reveal duration (6 sec should be acceptable). Otherwise “lock on” seems a bit overpowered considering all aoe spells/ traits an engie has.

Solori.6025:

BrazenNL.9857:

Solori.6025:

We now have a class that completely hardcounters our attempts to backstab by throwing out random AoE.

Lock On can only be procced by flame thrower.

You are 300% wrong

Lock On: Striking a foe in stealth analyzes them, revealing them and inflicting them with 10 stacks of vulnerability for 8 seconds. This trait has a 20 second internal cooldown.

It was explained during the Ready Up. It somehow didn’t make it into the slides. This is also why the Engies that watched the Ready Up in this thread mention the flame thrower.

BrazenNL.9857:

Solori.6025:

BrazenNL.9857:

Solori.6025:

We now have a class that completely hardcounters our attempts to backstab by throwing out random AoE.

Lock On can only be procced by flame thrower.

You are 300% wrong

Lock On: Striking a foe in stealth analyzes them, revealing them and inflicting them with 10 stacks of vulnerability for 8 seconds. This trait has a 20 second internal cooldown.

It was explained during the Ready Up. It somehow didn’t make it into the slides.

I hope that’s really the case

Even if engies won’t slot this trait as their regular choice, what stops them from changing traits when they see a thief. Just like now with googles.

A class that has no problem vs thieves is given another source of reveal, the reasoning devs had for this is beyond me. The only solid condi removal is totally useless vs class that spreads condis just by looking at you.

I was happy with the changes to thief class, then I saw this engi trait and it’s like a big slap from devs. I’ll have more survivability with zerker dungeon build staff ele than thief if there is engi on the map.

My question is this. What does it mean by Striking a Foe?
Does it mean any damage the Engineer uses including fire, bombs, grenades, bullets, shield, or rifle? Or does it mean tools and items on the ground? Striking usually means a physical type of damage.

This needs to be answered by Anet, not speculated by a player. Now if Engineers get hammer of course that would be a Strike weapon.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Even if engies won’t slot this trait as their regular choice, what stops them from changing traits when they see a thief. Just like now with googles.

A class that has no problem vs thieves is given another source of reveal, the reasoning devs had for this is beyond me. The only solid condi removal is totally useless vs class that spreads condis just by looking at you.

I was happy with the changes to thief class, then I saw this engi trait and it’s like a big slap from devs. I’ll have more survivability with zerker dungeon build staff ele than thief if there is engi on the map.

In unranked / ranked matches you can’t swap traits. And I don’t think people want to change traits on the fly when they are playing Practise mode:P But of course its possible, but I think most people would be boring of constantly swapping utils and traits everytime when engaging a thief.

But yeah an elementalist also has more survivability then a engi vs necro.:P And there are more cases like that. But again, I don’t believe many people would trait this, but even though it might be nice if they would reduce the revealedness a little bit to not make it too devastating. (maybe to 4 seconds?)

Chyanne Waters.8719:

My question is this. What does it mean by Striking a Foe?
Does it mean any damage the Engineer uses including fire, bombs, grenades, bullets, shield, or rifle? Or does it mean tools and items on the ground? Striking usually means a physical type of damage.

This needs to be answered by Anet, not speculated by a player. Now if Engineers get hammer of course that would be a Strike weapon.

I was stated by Anet, during the Ready Up …

Chyanne Waters.8719:

My question is this. What does it mean by Striking a Foe?
Does it mean any damage the Engineer uses including fire, bombs, grenades, bullets, shield, or rifle? Or does it mean tools and items on the ground? Striking usually means a physical type of damage.

This needs to be answered by Anet, not speculated by a player. Now if Engineers get hammer of course that would be a Strike weapon.

Just watched ready up. One aoe “hit” or physical hit will reveal thief for 6 seconds. Skip to 1:42:50 (Link: http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/b/669362853 ) in other words " as long as engie does dmg, thief will be revealed".

BrazenNL.9857:

Solori.6025:

BrazenNL.9857:

Solori.6025:

We now have a class that completely hardcounters our attempts to backstab by throwing out random AoE.

Lock On can only be procced by flame thrower.

You are 300% wrong

Lock On: Striking a foe in stealth analyzes them, revealing them and inflicting them with 10 stacks of vulnerability for 8 seconds. This trait has a 20 second internal cooldown.

It was explained during the Ready Up. It somehow didn’t make it into the slides. This is also why the Engies that watched the Ready Up in this thread mention the flame thrower.

No…It wasnt…

MatthiasL.5346:

Chyanne Waters.8719:

My question is this. What does it mean by Striking a Foe?
Does it mean any damage the Engineer uses including fire, bombs, grenades, bullets, shield, or rifle? Or does it mean tools and items on the ground? Striking usually means a physical type of damage.

This needs to be answered by Anet, not speculated by a player. Now if Engineers get hammer of course that would be a Strike weapon.

Just watched ready up. One aoe “hit” or physical hit will reveal thief for 6 seconds. Skip to 1:42:50 (Link: http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/b/669362853 ) in other words " as long as engie does dmg, thief will be revealed".

stof.9341:

We need thief skills that are like the spy in TF2 : building jammers :p

^this plz. Why have Shadow Arts the only shut-downable line? Lets shutdown entire Turret line. Maybe even jam Kits too.

As a thief main, I am not worried about this trait. Its only 6 seconds of revealed and you have a window of 14 seconds to burst them down. Any decent thief, with a strong build, can get a few backstabs in in that time.

If it is too strong I am sure Anet will tweak the numbers a bit, but personally I do not think it will be as strong as many are making out. IMO, I think most of the complaints about this trait are simply a knee jerk reaction from those who rely on stealth far too much. Stealth should be a tool, not a crutch.

Edit: And can we stop with this silly idea that Lock On will shut the entire shadow arts line down? Chances are most thieves traiting into SA are going to take shadows embrace, shadow protector and shadow’s rejuvination. As Lock On will only trigger when you are already in stealth, you can still benefit from the initial application of stealth standpoint. When you enter stealth, you will remove a condi, gain regen and heal for one tick of shadow’s rejuv. And you will likely get 1 tick of extra initiative. So the only think you are missing out on is a backstab and maybe a tick or two of SR. Its not that big a deal, and does not equate to the shutting down of the entire line. It is merely limiting it for 6 seconds.

Jana.6831:

Yeah, so you can’t backstab an engi anymore,so the burst is gone, and better don’t use SR

To be fair, SRing in front of an Engineer was already pretty risky, since you just gave them a target for Supply Drop, grenades and the Six knows what else.

I main Engineer, and I can’t begin to count the number of thieves I’ve downed by unloading all my AoE on top of an active SR field. Personally, I’ve always thought Engineers already had an advantage against thieves. This new trait only solidifies it.

Solori.6025:

Shadow.1345:

Counterplay it by not getting hit, kinda like how we have been telling people to counterplay stealth by swinging wildly and not getting hit by backstab.

Sadly it wont be that simple.

Caltrops will reveal you, the dodge bomb will reveal you, there mass amount of spammable AoE will hit you.

We now have a class that completely hardcounters our attempts to backstab by throwing out random AoE.
While honestly, I care very little for the woes of thieves ( I am a mesmer main infiltrator)
I am more concerned with how this invalidates an entire trait line basically every 14seconds (20s ICD -6s Reveal).

This will make stealth play vs an engineer pretty much pointless..
So we will have 3 classes that will basically invalidate stealth as a mechanic.
Hopefully A-net gives us something that makes stealth less important to our burst and DPS.

Sic ‘Em requires the ranger to be able to actually target you to tag you with revealed. It might stop you from stealthing, but it can’t knock you out of stealth, only Lock On and the Dragonhunter trap can do that. We’ll have to see how the other two work when they’re live, but IMO “invalidating” is a touch strong to describe the Ranger’s revealing skill.

Also, this + Kinetic Charge w/Goggle does completely destroy a thief’s stealth capabilities, I will not argue otherwise just because Engineer is my fav and I’m giggling like an idiot at the possibilities. Potential 18 straight seconds of revealed from Lock On + Double dipping on Utility Goggle’s own Analyze skill. That gives you 2 seconds for stealth shenanigans before the ICDs are up and it starts all over again.

Yea not looking forward to engi anti stealth skills….

Can we get abilities that negate an entire skill tree or class mechanic? Give thief a skill that disables engi kits for X seconds and all they use is weapon set or something…

Seriously not liking lock on ability…

Yeah, I’m so afraid of engis taking a master trait, a grandmaster trait and one utility slot just to counter a single build (60606 d/p) that can just walk away.
This is meta in no time.

Yes it will be meta, until no one uses stealth at all in any pvp game mode. This trait directly counters so many builds its ridiculous, Engis already have a reveal utility, dont give them kittened passive hard counters like this…

So I just remembered something…

How is that long lost S/P build gonna do?

Solori.6025:

So I just remembered something…

How is that long lost S/P build gonna do?

S/P will be in the same spot I guess. You can go with acro traitline but it won’t be as effective as S/D because evades won’t proc if enemy is blinded with #5.

Rin.1046:

As a thief main, I am not worried about this trait. Its only 6 seconds of revealed and you have a window of 14 seconds to burst them down. Any decent thief, with a strong build, can get a few backstabs in in that time.

If it is too strong I am sure Anet will tweak the numbers a bit, but personally I do not think it will be as strong as many are making out. IMO, I think most of the complaints about this trait are simply a knee jerk reaction from those who rely on stealth far too much. Stealth should be a tool, not a crutch.

Edit: And can we stop with this silly idea that Lock On will shut the entire shadow arts line down? Chances are most thieves traiting into SA are going to take shadows embrace, shadow protector and shadow’s rejuvination. As Lock On will only trigger when you are already in stealth, you can still benefit from the initial application of stealth standpoint. When you enter stealth, you will remove a condi, gain regen and heal for one tick of shadow’s rejuv. And you will likely get 1 tick of extra initiative. So the only think you are missing out on is a backstab and maybe a tick or two of SR. Its not that big a deal, and does not equate to the shutting down of the entire line. It is merely limiting it for 6 seconds.

Revealed destroys (SA/CS line): condi removal, regen, burst. So by forcing it unto a thief all his skills are shut down – he’s a free lootbag. 6 sec is really long, it’s 3 sec now, 4 in pvp. Only S/D thieves who usually don’t rely on stealth could “deal with it”.
And one second of regen and condi removal often is nothing against an engi who’s already a strong counter against thieves, but you as a main thief know that.

Every class that would be “disabled” for 6 seconds in wvw/pvp would be dead.
There isn’t even a “maybe they’ll tweak it” traits like this are a really really really bad idea.

Foefaller.1082:

To be fair, SRing in front of an Engineer was already pretty risky, since you just gave them a target for Supply Drop, grenades and the Six knows what else.

I main Engineer, and I can’t begin to count the number of thieves I’ve downed by unloading all my AoE on top of an active SR field.

Since I’m smart I usually use SR when the engi has already popped his SC. If you guys just need to aoe SR now, then I don’t have a chance to time SR against an engi.

Foefaller.1082:

Personally, I’ve always thought Engineers already had an advantage against thieves.This new trait only solidifies it.

I think so too, you already were hard to beat (I just learned it to be honest) so this trait is completely unneccessary and like I said before (andmultiple times on these forums already) – no class should have the ability to disable everything of another class, especially not for 6 seconds. This is really bad design.

MatthiasL.5346:

Zaerah.1630:

I think people are way over reacting to this…

I have to disagree.
You have to see it this way: Basicly one (MASTER) trait (not even grandmaster trait), hard counters/ destroys an entirely traitline with most of its benefits (except 3 traits) including 2 grandmaster traits + stealth based weaponsets such as d/p.

Maybe thieves will now understand what all the mesmers were qq’ing about thief
ignoring grandmaster trait by just being a thief.

Lenaios.2781:

Maybe thieves will now understand what all the mesmers were qq’ing about thief
ignoring grandmaster trait by just being a thief.

I don’t, which did we ignore and how?

Jana.6831:

Lenaios.2781:

Maybe thieves will now understand what all the mesmers were qq’ing about thief
ignoring grandmaster trait by just being a thief.

I don’t, which did we ignore and how?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Power_Block
Thieves can’t have cooldowns on weapon skills. This trait increases cooldown.

But this is in no way equal. Because a single trait invalidated by a mechanic is not the same as a mechanic invalidated by the a single trait. Engie’s essentially got a diamond skin level trait that just needs to be balanced correctly.

The mesmer whines are getting old.

1v1 Thief vs Mesmer was not a hard counter. Only in team play when thief focuses mesmer was it a counter.

The actual counter was never as hard as guardian vs thief or now engi vs thief.

Daniel Handler.4816:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Power_Block
Thieves can’t have cooldowns on weapon skills. This trait increases cooldown.

But this is in no way equal. Because a single trait invalidated by a mechanic is not the same as a mechanic invalidated by the a single trait. Engie’s essentially got a diamond skin level trait that just needs to be balanced correctly.

Ok, how about steal, SR and all other skills we use? They should be on extended cooldown with this trait? (Haven’t fought against any mesmer 1 vs 1 lately)
Thanks for explaining.
Didn’t get the diamondskin thing though.

You could compare the Engi trait with: Take away aegis from guard, deny his burst, steal his skill (SR in case of thief which has the usual cooldown but was useless) deny his heal and deny his condi removal – for 6 seconds. No class can survive that.

I really don’t get why there is so much fuzz about this one trait. I think it was pretty obvious that the perma-stealth-evasiveness of thieves would get some kind of counter.

The WvW Roaming scene will appreciate it I think. Especially in WvW roaming the whole Stealth ‘n Run when at a loss made it pretty frustrating for other proffessions I guess and for thieves I think it was a bit too forgiving. Atleast with this now you have to be more careful who you are facing and who’s arround.

But then again, not every opponent you face will be an engi and vice versa for engies too. So for an engi its a pretty huge investment to spent an point on this trait only to mainly counter one specific proffession (Mesmers / Rangers are not that reliant on stealth) which in WvW isn’t that much of a deal because they can change traits on the fly, but for sPvP purposes i can’t really seee them using this trait that often. Maybe as counterplay when the enemy team has sth like mes,thief,ranger.

Fenju.2953:

I really don’t get why there is so much fuzz about this one trait. I think it was pretty obvious that the perma-stealth-evasiveness of thieves would get some kind of counter.

The WvW Roaming scene will appreciate it I think. Especially in WvW roaming the whole Stealth ‘n Run when at a loss made it pretty frustrating for other proffessions I guess and for thieves I think it was a bit too forgiving. Atleast with this now you have to be more careful who you are facing and who’s arround.

But then again, not every opponent you face will be an engi and vice versa for engies too. So for an engi its a pretty huge investment to spent an point on this trait only to mainly counter one specific proffession (Mesmers / Rangers are not that reliant on stealth) which in WvW isn’t that much of a deal because they can change traits on the fly, but for sPvP purposes i can’t really seee them using this trait that often. Maybe as counterplay when the enemy team has sth like mes,thief,ranger.

Imagine I get a skill to disable all your skills, minus #1 and maybe a teleport for 6 seconds plus the cooldown of the skill I just destroyed – how would that be for you?
Something like this shouldn’t be in game. I don’t know if engis even need a counter as they’re doing that much aoe damage, that they’re likely hitting a stealthed thief anyway. And that is the counter that is already in game.
And because of that: give engis something useful for their class, I mean it. Something that helps them against every enemy, not just other engis, rangers, mesmers and most of all thieves as that class is build around stealth.
I don’t get why it isn’t obvious to everybody that this is game breaking.

Yamsandjams.3267:

That’s why you can’t, for instance, have a fire sigil proc off 5 separate mobs at the same time even if you crit them all with the same ability. It will only ever occur on one because the ability is on cooldown as soon as it does.

I made you a screenshot actually and sigil of fire does aoe damage, In that case I was doing damage against a single target as it was a backstab but the aoe hurt another npc.
Just to the sigil of fire, it’s still unclear how many stealthed enemies will be affected by this shiny new trait. I guess up to five if all of them are hit at the same time.

Jana.6831:

Imagine I get a skill to disable all your skills, minus #1 and maybe a teleport for 6 seconds plus the cooldown of the skill I just destroyed – how would that be for you?
Something like this shouldn’t be in game. I don’t know if engis even need a counter as they’re doing that much aoe damage, that they’re likely hitting a stealthed thief anyway. And that is the counter that is already in game.
And because of that: give engis something useful for their class, I mean it. Something that helps them against every enemy, not just other engis, rangers, mesmers and most of all thieves as that class is build around stealth.
I don’t get why it isn’t obvious to everybody that this is game breaking.

I see your point there, but I think in reallity it really takes away our reposition and backstab ability. Every other skill we have is still there, so we will have to use our remaining skills to counter this by e.g. use shadowstep to reposition / wait out the reveal. Or just focus on avoiding taking damage for the time reveal is on you, which against grenade/bombs spamming engies is already sth. we are doing.

But I agree with you that it’s kind of questionable that engi was the class that got this trait, because as you stated they already are doing quite well against thieves and traits that are specifically focused are kind of odd because they’re pretty situational and therefore most of the time irrelevant.

Fenju.2953:

I see your point there, but I think in reallity it really takes away our reposition and backstab ability. Every other skill we have is still there,

No. I’m a backstab thief, thus my whole build is around stealth. Every thief I know has got at least 2 points in SA, which only work with stealth. Almost every thief I know has got SR equipped, cooldown 1 min, I think, will be destroyed by this trait. So condi remove is destroyed, defense is destroyed plus you have the full cooldown on that skill. If you have the full SA line every trait you have in there will be destroyed. And that is cruicial. The remaining skills are few like I just said.

Fenju.2953:

Or just focus on avoiding taking damage for the time reveal is on you, which against grenade/bombs spamming engies is already sth. we are doing.

Your only chance is to try to port, the engi has also a toolbelt with magnet and turrets which immobilize and a range, I don’t know was it 1200 always, 900 after the changes and 1200 when traited?

Fenju.2953:

But I agree with you that it’s kind of questionable that engi was the class that got this trait, because as you stated they already are doing quite well against thieves and traits that are specifically focused are kind of odd because they’re pretty situational and therefore most of the time irrelevant.

I really should have a look at the engi’s traits, I just know of this. I just had the impression that all that made them win was their supply crate which just got nerfed and that they’re not that powerful without that crate and that is kind of sad.

Anyway: No class should have the option to completely shut down another for 6+ seconds and make them waste all their skills just trying to survive. If that really was neccessary, then anet should go back to the drawing boards and redesign that class.

It all boils down to anet’s laziness to implement another stealth debuff that only removes visibility but not the effects associated with stealth. With that current reveal skills wouldn’t be such a hard counter to thief, they could even give longer invisibility debuff duration.

Engies could sprinkle some glitter on thieves just like witcher :P

Jayden Ennok.3687:

It all boils down to anet’s laziness to implement another stealth debuff that only removes *in*visibility ? but not the effects associated with stealth. With that current reveal skills wouldn’t be such a hard counter to thief, they could even give longer invisibility debuff duration.

Engies could sprinkle some glitter on thieves just like witcher :P

How should that work if everything is tied to stealth? It doesn’t.
I just come from a fight with a condi thief (meh) who put 3!!!!!!! stealth traps into all camps he either had or wanted to cap – there was nothing I could do as a power stealth thief (other than ask for help in map chat) – I don’t consider this guy to be a thief.
There is already a lot of counter to stealth/damage from stealth actually, engis have got either shield or their toolbelt shield, they can also shrink and take no damage, they can also make themselves invisible and have got access to a lot of AoE all good weapons against a thief. You just need to know when to use them.

Or if everything fails, just spend your gold on stealth traps.

All ranged classes already shut down thief with 1 abilility big deal.
u hit them so hard they have to reset the fight in meanwhile u kill all his friends thats why more than 1 theif on team is detrimental.
I have yet to see anyone slot in reveal skill just to kill 1 theif.

Extreme.8350:

All ranged classes already shut down thief with 1 abilility big deal.
u hit them so hard they have to reset the fight in meanwhile u kill all his friends thats why more than 1 theif on team is detrimental.
I have yet to see anyone slot in reveal skill just to kill 1 theif.

Oh I’ve met a few rangers who did – and it worked.

Thieves not getting revealed when attack from stealth fails against aegis, blind or evade comes to mind about destroying other class’ mechanics.

T raw.4658:

The mesmer whines are getting old.

1v1 Thief vs Mesmer was not a hard counter. Only in team play when thief focuses mesmer was it a counter.

The actual counter was never as hard as guardian vs thief or now engi vs thief.

No, it’s the thief whines that are getting old. And now that being said, both thief and mesmer will just have to adjust vs engi. Also both mesmer and thief will be the top dogs come the patch so neither class has any reason to whine.