Guild Wars 2

So in other words: having 1 block on your character means —→ immune to thief?

Barock.7183:

So in other words: having 1 block on your character means —-> immune to thief?

Immune to one particular attack in a certain interval. Last I saw, thieves can repeat their maneuver every 3 seconds. You can’t seriously complain about this can you?

You make it sound as if the thief is a complete failure as a class if they can’t land that one backstab. I don’t even play a thief and even I can tell you that’s not true.

Kaon.7192:

Sifu.6527:

Kaon.7192:

zaxon.6819:

the only reason other peoples skills get put on cooldown is because they do not use initiative. none of our skills get put on cooldown when used.

the skill that did get put on cooldown is whatever you used to get into stealth. that is the ability that gives you backstab.

Yes, most of our skills use initiative, which serves as our global cooldown mechanic. When missing those skills, there is opportunity costs involved.

Backstab does not use initiative, however, and can be used immediately after a miss/block/evade, so missing it has very negligible opportunity costs for us. Therein lies the problem.

I think you’re talking about point B and negecting point A.

The current topic of discussion is Backstab and how miss/evade/vul affect it. Before we talk about that, we need to go back to point A; stealth. How did the thief get into stealth? There are serveral options; heal, utilities, and weapon sets.

This should be where the oportunity cost comes into play. The majority of the time, stealth is either achieved by CnD or BP+HS. All of these skills cost init and with CnD it must hit the target at 120 range. But you as a thief player, already know this. The cost is paid up front via init and Backstab is our reward.

That’s an interesting way of looking at it.

But in that sense, are you saying that as long as you land the C&D or pop your stealth cooldowns, you should be rewarded with as many chances as the stealth duration allows for to land your backstab? I still don’t think I can agree with that.

I want to elaborate in greated detail why I think is it balance.

For start, the target already had the opportunity to prevent BS by avoiding (block, invul, etc) CnD. The only exception to this is stealth via heal/utilities.

Secondly, stealth is the thief ultimate tool in regards to both offense and defense. You know the thief is within your proximity but you can’t pinpoint its exact location. You have to look at “block, miss, evade, invul, ect” messages as an indication that the thief is right next to you trying to attack thus giving up their defense aka location. If you know he is right next to you, you can counter with aoe such as binding blade/pull/WW etc. There are other ways to counter too. A sword warrior can turn around and F1 to immobilize as it track closest target and immobilize the thief for some nasty punishment. Ele can do a 180 then BS. At this point, I hope you get the idea. One aegis can do more than just “block”….

bhagwad.4281:

A mesmer has a skill saying “block next attack” and lasts for two seconds. Now since stealth lasts for 4 secs, it takes anticipation and timing to use those two seconds at the correct moment. But there have been times when I use it, it works, and I still get hit immediately after that.

So I used skill, timing, I saved up my CD for a chance to use it…and what benefit do I get? Nothing.

When you read “Block” you know the thief is there and he backstabbed you.
You blocked his backstab, so you succesfully used a skill to counter another skill.
Now he is goin to backstab you again, so you have to use another skill to counter it, e.g. you can dodge.

You are suggesting to be able to counter multiple skills with 1 skill and that’s unreasonable because for that purpose there are skills like Shield Stance (and they have cooldowns)

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

Why shouldn’t I be able to break your block?

I’m sorry, but what exactly are you suggesting? You want to break my block? Meaning what?

Back stab once using up your single block skill and then stabbing again to damage you.

Ok…and your point is what? That I use a skill to counter you and then you get to use the same skill immediately again whereas mine goes to cooldown.

I don’t understand – are you supporting this, defending this, or saying you don’t care?

I am talking purely in terms of balance. What is considered skillful or unskillful is irrelevant here. As of right now, I can back stab to use up your block or to get rid of blindness on myself and then I can back stab again for damage. What is game breaking about that? It does not deserve the nerf you’re suggesting unless it makes my damage out put so great that it’s over powered.

Daendur.2357:

bhagwad.4281:

A mesmer has a skill saying “block next attack” and lasts for two seconds. Now since stealth lasts for 4 secs, it takes anticipation and timing to use those two seconds at the correct moment. But there have been times when I use it, it works, and I still get hit immediately after that.

So I used skill, timing, I saved up my CD for a chance to use it…and what benefit do I get? Nothing.

When you read “Block” you know the thief is there and he backstabbed you.
You blocked his backstab, so you succesfully used a skill to counter another skill.
Now he is goin to backstab you again, so you have to use another skill to counter it, e.g. you can dodge.

You are suggesting to be able to counter multiple skills with 1 skill and that’s unreasonable because for that purpose there are skills like Shield Stance (and they have cooldowns)

Using a backstab twice in succession counts as “multiple skills”? I don’t think the terminology will stand that strain. It’s the same skill. If BS was a regular skill it would have a cooldown…just like every other. Since it doesn’t, and since it’s from stealth, and since it causes damage, obviously something needs to be changed.

Will you be ok with a 2 second CD for backstab (or any other stealth skill)?

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

Why shouldn’t I be able to break your block?

I’m sorry, but what exactly are you suggesting? You want to break my block? Meaning what?

Back stab once using up your single block skill and then stabbing again to damage you.

Ok…and your point is what? That I use a skill to counter you and then you get to use the same skill immediately again whereas mine goes to cooldown.

I don’t understand – are you supporting this, defending this, or saying you don’t care?

I am talking purely in terms of balance. What is considered skillful or unskillful is irrelevant here. As of right now, I can back stab to use up your block or to get rid of blindness on myself and then I can back stab again for damage. What is game breaking about that? It does not deserve the nerf you’re suggesting unless it makes my damage out put so great that it’s over powered.

I find it interesting that you call giving BS a small cooldown as a “nerf”. There are many other skills in the game that deal far less damage that BS that have a cooldown and you feel that a skill that can do anywhere between 3-14k damage having a cooldown is a horrible thing?

Perhaps we have different understandings of what “balance” means.

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

Why shouldn’t I be able to break your block?

I’m sorry, but what exactly are you suggesting? You want to break my block? Meaning what?

Back stab once using up your single block skill and then stabbing again to damage you.

Ok…and your point is what? That I use a skill to counter you and then you get to use the same skill immediately again whereas mine goes to cooldown.

I don’t understand – are you supporting this, defending this, or saying you don’t care?

I am talking purely in terms of balance. What is considered skillful or unskillful is irrelevant here. As of right now, I can back stab to use up your block or to get rid of blindness on myself and then I can back stab again for damage. What is game breaking about that? It does not deserve the nerf you’re suggesting unless it makes my damage out put so great that it’s over powered.

Let me replace “back stab” will killshot and see how it sounds:

I am talking purely in terms of balance. What is considered skillful or unskillful is irrelevant here. As of right now, I can killshot to use up your block or to get rid of blindness on myself and then I can killshot again for damage. What is game breaking about that? It does not deserve the nerf you’re suggesting unless it makes my damage out put so great that it’s over powered.

Doesn’t work no? I mean even killshot being blocked has a CD. If you’re ok with steal skills having CDs, then we’ve found our solution!

of course block will also target only the few big hitting skills for other people yes? they won’t be able to burn these “one attack only” blocks with autoattacks (which they do automatically) as they position for there big attacks right?

And having a cooldown on em refunds any initiative taken to set it up yes?

bhagwad.4281:

Daendur.2357:

bhagwad.4281:

Daendur.2357:

bhagwad.4281:

Daendur.2357:

if BS is a basic maneuver, why block it should be something requiring skill ?
You just have to press 1 button to block… Pressing 1 button is a basic maneuver

It is. But it doesn’t work obviously since BS can just be repeated.

And Shield Stance last 3seconds… also block can be repeated… so ?

I has a 30 second cooldown. I’m sorry I didn’t understand what you were trying to say…

That nothing requires skill … just press 1 button. it’s easy, a monkey can do that.
if you don’t consider positioning and timing I don’t consider cooldowns…

btw it has been stated that there are multiple options to avoid BS, not only a 30s cooldown skill.

A mesmer has a skill saying “block next attack” and lasts for two seconds. Now since stealth lasts for 4 secs, it takes anticipation and timing to use those two seconds at the correct moment. But there have been times when I use it, it works, and I still get hit immediately after that.

So I used skill, timing, I saved up my CD for a chance to use it…and what benefit do I get? Nothing.

Would you tolerate this for any other skill in the game? Come on…I’m not being unreasonable here

As for the 30 second cooldown, it’s useless as soon as the thief stealths again 3 secs later. So it’s not as if this is a hard counter to a BS. Surely you’re not complaining about it?

I have been saying this for a while now and I totally agree with you. I play a plethora of classes, as well as a thief, before anyone says that I need to play a thief.

To the people saying you can dodge, yes I can. But dodging takes a while to recover so I can’t do it infinitely. Also, you can just CnD IMMEDIATELY if you missed you backstab and went out of stealth. Press CnD again and you’re in stealth again, ready for another try.
If I were one of the devs I’d make it so blocking and a dodge removes stealth. Only those 2 though. You can still try 5 times to finally hit me, but if I actively dodge or block it, you should be revealed.

Anyway, I think this topic doesn’t matter a lot anymore, looking at the upcoming change to stealth. They will still be able to “negate” blocks but at least they can’t reapply stealth whenever they want.

i just thought of something,

what if we implement block like one of the single player games, you can only block where your shield is facing the oponent,

so that we can also implement that if you block/miss/evade backstab regardless of stealth, the thief cannot do backstab anymore.

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

Why shouldn’t I be able to break your block?

I’m sorry, but what exactly are you suggesting? You want to break my block? Meaning what?

Back stab once using up your single block skill and then stabbing again to damage you.

Ok…and your point is what? That I use a skill to counter you and then you get to use the same skill immediately again whereas mine goes to cooldown.

I don’t understand – are you supporting this, defending this, or saying you don’t care?

I am talking purely in terms of balance. What is considered skillful or unskillful is irrelevant here. As of right now, I can back stab to use up your block or to get rid of blindness on myself and then I can back stab again for damage. What is game breaking about that? It does not deserve the nerf you’re suggesting unless it makes my damage out put so great that it’s over powered.

I find it interesting that you call giving BS a small cooldown as a “nerf”. There are many other skills in the game that deal far less damage that BS that have a cooldown and you feel that a skill that can do anywhere between 3-14k damage having a cooldown is a horrible thing?

Perhaps we have different understandings of what “balance” means.

I will conced to and promote your position if you can name one autoattack (#1) that currently has a cooldown.

Sifu.6527:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

Why shouldn’t I be able to break your block?

I’m sorry, but what exactly are you suggesting? You want to break my block? Meaning what?

Back stab once using up your single block skill and then stabbing again to damage you.

Ok…and your point is what? That I use a skill to counter you and then you get to use the same skill immediately again whereas mine goes to cooldown.

I don’t understand – are you supporting this, defending this, or saying you don’t care?

I am talking purely in terms of balance. What is considered skillful or unskillful is irrelevant here. As of right now, I can back stab to use up your block or to get rid of blindness on myself and then I can back stab again for damage. What is game breaking about that? It does not deserve the nerf you’re suggesting unless it makes my damage out put so great that it’s over powered.

I find it interesting that you call giving BS a small cooldown as a “nerf”. There are many other skills in the game that deal far less damage that BS that have a cooldown and you feel that a skill that can do anywhere between 3-14k damage having a cooldown is a horrible thing?

Perhaps we have different understandings of what “balance” means.

I will conced to and promote your position if you can name one autoattack (#1) that currently has a cooldown.

This is most surprising. You’re comparing an autoattack to a skill that does some of the highest damage in the game?

Congratulations sir. I believe you have proved your point convincingly

bhagwad.4281:

Sifu.6527:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

Why shouldn’t I be able to break your block?

I’m sorry, but what exactly are you suggesting? You want to break my block? Meaning what?

Back stab once using up your single block skill and then stabbing again to damage you.

Ok…and your point is what? That I use a skill to counter you and then you get to use the same skill immediately again whereas mine goes to cooldown.

I don’t understand – are you supporting this, defending this, or saying you don’t care?

I am talking purely in terms of balance. What is considered skillful or unskillful is irrelevant here. As of right now, I can back stab to use up your block or to get rid of blindness on myself and then I can back stab again for damage. What is game breaking about that? It does not deserve the nerf you’re suggesting unless it makes my damage out put so great that it’s over powered.

I find it interesting that you call giving BS a small cooldown as a “nerf”. There are many other skills in the game that deal far less damage that BS that have a cooldown and you feel that a skill that can do anywhere between 3-14k damage having a cooldown is a horrible thing?

Perhaps we have different understandings of what “balance” means.

I will conced to and promote your position if you can name one autoattack (#1) that currently has a cooldown.

This is most surprising. You’re comparing an autoattack to a skill that does some of the highest damage in the game?

Congratulations sir. I believe you have proved your point convincingly

Not really.

You’re asking for the wrong type of nerf…

Do you have a problem with the damage or do you have a problem with being able to spam an autoattack?

Sifu.6527:

bhagwad.4281:

Sifu.6527:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

Why shouldn’t I be able to break your block?

I’m sorry, but what exactly are you suggesting? You want to break my block? Meaning what?

Back stab once using up your single block skill and then stabbing again to damage you.

Ok…and your point is what? That I use a skill to counter you and then you get to use the same skill immediately again whereas mine goes to cooldown.

I don’t understand – are you supporting this, defending this, or saying you don’t care?

I am talking purely in terms of balance. What is considered skillful or unskillful is irrelevant here. As of right now, I can back stab to use up your block or to get rid of blindness on myself and then I can back stab again for damage. What is game breaking about that? It does not deserve the nerf you’re suggesting unless it makes my damage out put so great that it’s over powered.

I find it interesting that you call giving BS a small cooldown as a “nerf”. There are many other skills in the game that deal far less damage that BS that have a cooldown and you feel that a skill that can do anywhere between 3-14k damage having a cooldown is a horrible thing?

Perhaps we have different understandings of what “balance” means.

I will conced to and promote your position if you can name one autoattack (#1) that currently has a cooldown.

This is most surprising. You’re comparing an autoattack to a skill that does some of the highest damage in the game?

Congratulations sir. I believe you have proved your point convincingly

Not really.

You’re asking for the wrong type of nerf…

Do you have a problem with the damage or do you have a problem with being able to spam an autoattack?

I’m sure you’ll agree that the two cannot go together. Either autoattack and have low damage, or have a skill that does a lot more and has a CD (or at least has some kind of opportunity cost. AFAIK BS doesn’t even use any initiative…)

Like I said, my initial post was about unstealthing with a botched BS. But I don’t mind a cooldown period or the thief’s skills being replaced by the regular skill set.

Either would address the issue.

The whole thief class doesn’t have cooldowns on skills… why tu put cooldown to backstab ? just because it deals more damage ? we already said that that damage is there because of a state (stealth) and position requirement.
So no, I wouldn’t agree with a 2 sec cd on bs.
tbh if you, as a mesmer, die by a thief, there’s something wrong with you, not with BS nor stealth.

bhagwad.4281:

Sifu.6527:

bhagwad.4281:

Sifu.6527:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

Why shouldn’t I be able to break your block?

I’m sorry, but what exactly are you suggesting? You want to break my block? Meaning what?

Back stab once using up your single block skill and then stabbing again to damage you.

Ok…and your point is what? That I use a skill to counter you and then you get to use the same skill immediately again whereas mine goes to cooldown.

I don’t understand – are you supporting this, defending this, or saying you don’t care?

I am talking purely in terms of balance. What is considered skillful or unskillful is irrelevant here. As of right now, I can back stab to use up your block or to get rid of blindness on myself and then I can back stab again for damage. What is game breaking about that? It does not deserve the nerf you’re suggesting unless it makes my damage out put so great that it’s over powered.

I find it interesting that you call giving BS a small cooldown as a “nerf”. There are many other skills in the game that deal far less damage that BS that have a cooldown and you feel that a skill that can do anywhere between 3-14k damage having a cooldown is a horrible thing?

Perhaps we have different understandings of what “balance” means.

I will conced to and promote your position if you can name one autoattack (#1) that currently has a cooldown.

This is most surprising. You’re comparing an autoattack to a skill that does some of the highest damage in the game?

Congratulations sir. I believe you have proved your point convincingly

Not really.

You’re asking for the wrong type of nerf…

Do you have a problem with the damage or do you have a problem with being able to spam an autoattack?

I’m sure you’ll agree that the two cannot go together. Either autoattack and have low damage, or have a skill that does a lot more and has a CD (or at least has some kind of opportunity cost. AFAIK BS doesn’t even use any initiative…)

Like I said, my initial post was about unstealthing with a botched BS. But I don’t mind a cooldown period or the thief’s skills being replaced by the regular skill set.

Either would address the issue.

BS cost 4-9 init paid via CnD or BP+NS, or a healing on a 30 sec CD, or a utility on a 45+sec CD.

It also has an artificial CD of 4 secs via reveal debuff.

Daendur.2357:

The whole thief class doesn’t have cooldowns on skills… why tu put cooldown to backstab ? just because it deals more damage ? we already said that that damage is there because of a state (stealth) and position requirement.
So no, I wouldn’t agree with a 2 sec cd on bs.
tbh if you, as a mesmer, die by a thief, there’s something wrong with you, not with BS nor stealth.

Backstab uses initiative just like every other thief skill? As far as I know that’s not the case. Am I wrong?

bhagwad.4281:

Let me replace “back stab” will killshot and see how it sounds:

I am talking purely in terms of balance. What is considered skillful or unskillful is irrelevant here. As of right now, I can killshot to use up your block or to get rid of blindness on myself and then I can killshot again for damage. What is game breaking about that? It does not deserve the nerf you’re suggesting unless it makes my damage out put so great that it’s over powered.

Doesn’t work no? I mean even killshot being blocked has a CD. If you’re ok with steal skills having CDs, then we’ve found our solution!

That’s a bad example. Kill shot is a ranged attack, it doesn’t have to hit their back, and back stab only deals 2/3s the base damage that kill shot does. Rifles also deal 980-1200 damage while daggers do only 920-980. On top of all that, if the warrior has Attack of Opportunity they’ll likely inflict 10% more damage. You need to pull off multiple back stabs to kill someone, it is no where near comparable to kill shot.

bhagwad.4281:

Daendur.2357:

The whole thief class doesn’t have cooldowns on skills… why tu put cooldown to backstab ? just because it deals more damage ? we already said that that damage is there because of a state (stealth) and position requirement.
So no, I wouldn’t agree with a 2 sec cd on bs.
tbh if you, as a mesmer, die by a thief, there’s something wrong with you, not with BS nor stealth.

Backstab uses initiative just like every other thief skill? As far as I know that’s not the case. Am I wrong?

Backstab is available only from stealth. How do you gain stealth ?

Sifu.6527:

bhagwad.4281:

Sifu.6527:

bhagwad.4281:

Sifu.6527:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

Why shouldn’t I be able to break your block?

I’m sorry, but what exactly are you suggesting? You want to break my block? Meaning what?

Back stab once using up your single block skill and then stabbing again to damage you.

Ok…and your point is what? That I use a skill to counter you and then you get to use the same skill immediately again whereas mine goes to cooldown.

I don’t understand – are you supporting this, defending this, or saying you don’t care?

I am talking purely in terms of balance. What is considered skillful or unskillful is irrelevant here. As of right now, I can back stab to use up your block or to get rid of blindness on myself and then I can back stab again for damage. What is game breaking about that? It does not deserve the nerf you’re suggesting unless it makes my damage out put so great that it’s over powered.

I find it interesting that you call giving BS a small cooldown as a “nerf”. There are many other skills in the game that deal far less damage that BS that have a cooldown and you feel that a skill that can do anywhere between 3-14k damage having a cooldown is a horrible thing?

Perhaps we have different understandings of what “balance” means.

I will conced to and promote your position if you can name one autoattack (#1) that currently has a cooldown.

This is most surprising. You’re comparing an autoattack to a skill that does some of the highest damage in the game?

Congratulations sir. I believe you have proved your point convincingly

Not really.

You’re asking for the wrong type of nerf…

Do you have a problem with the damage or do you have a problem with being able to spam an autoattack?

I’m sure you’ll agree that the two cannot go together. Either autoattack and have low damage, or have a skill that does a lot more and has a CD (or at least has some kind of opportunity cost. AFAIK BS doesn’t even use any initiative…)

Like I said, my initial post was about unstealthing with a botched BS. But I don’t mind a cooldown period or the thief’s skills being replaced by the regular skill set.

Either would address the issue.

BS cost 4-9 init paid via CnD or BP+NS, or a healing on a 30 sec CD, or a utility on a 45+sec CD.

It also has an artificial CD of 4 secs via reveal debuff.

The CnD cost is for stealth which is a very good benefit entirely. You can’t call the 4 secs as a CD because it’s not triggered whenever the skill is used. In fact, that is precisely the point of this thread in the first place!

Daendur.2357:

bhagwad.4281:

Daendur.2357:

The whole thief class doesn’t have cooldowns on skills… why tu put cooldown to backstab ? just because it deals more damage ? we already said that that damage is there because of a state (stealth) and position requirement.
So no, I wouldn’t agree with a 2 sec cd on bs.
tbh if you, as a mesmer, die by a thief, there’s something wrong with you, not with BS nor stealth.

Backstab uses initiative just like every other thief skill? As far as I know that’s not the case. Am I wrong?

Backstab is available only from stealth. How do you gain stealth ?

I see…so if CnD merely gave you access to BS without the stealth you’ll be completely ok with that?

Ahem..ahem.

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

Let me replace “back stab” will killshot and see how it sounds:

I am talking purely in terms of balance. What is considered skillful or unskillful is irrelevant here. As of right now, I can killshot to use up your block or to get rid of blindness on myself and then I can killshot again for damage. What is game breaking about that? It does not deserve the nerf you’re suggesting unless it makes my damage out put so great that it’s over powered.

Doesn’t work no? I mean even killshot being blocked has a CD. If you’re ok with steal skills having CDs, then we’ve found our solution!

That’s a bad example. Kill shot is a ranged attack, it doesn’t have to hit their back, and back stab only deals 2/3s the base damage that kill shot does. Rifles also deal 980-1200 damage while daggers do only 920-980. On top of all that, if the warrior has Attack of Opportunity they’ll likely inflict 10% more damage. You need to pull off multiple back stabs to kill someone, it is no where near comparable to kill shot.

I thought you’d say that. And my response is my post is not just about BS. It’s about any stealth skill like Sneak Attack (which is also ranged).

Btw, saying you have to pull of multiple backstabs to skill someone assumes you’re relying on just one skill to down a person. I think most thieves are more skilled than that.

bhagwad.4281:

Daendur.2357:

bhagwad.4281:

Daendur.2357:

The whole thief class doesn’t have cooldowns on skills… why tu put cooldown to backstab ? just because it deals more damage ? we already said that that damage is there because of a state (stealth) and position requirement.
So no, I wouldn’t agree with a 2 sec cd on bs.
tbh if you, as a mesmer, die by a thief, there’s something wrong with you, not with BS nor stealth.

Backstab uses initiative just like every other thief skill? As far as I know that’s not the case. Am I wrong?

Backstab is available only from stealth. How do you gain stealth ?

I see…so if CnD merely gave you access to BS without the stealth you’ll be completely ok with that?

Ahem..ahem.

With increased BS damage, to balance the lack of surpriseness, yes. Of course multiple times in a 3-4 secs window.

If you could only hit backstab once, it would be virtually impossible to land on anyone with common sense. All they would have to do is spin in circles until you pop out of stealth. lol

The problem is stealth windows are very short, and the enemy knows you are coming and can already take action to avoid a backstab.. and a lot of times a good player will. No, I am not talking about the backstab cheese builds, I am taking about standard thief backstabs which are what would be hit the hardest by a change like this.

Daendur.2357:

bhagwad.4281:

Daendur.2357:

bhagwad.4281:

Daendur.2357:

The whole thief class doesn’t have cooldowns on skills… why tu put cooldown to backstab ? just because it deals more damage ? we already said that that damage is there because of a state (stealth) and position requirement.
So no, I wouldn’t agree with a 2 sec cd on bs.
tbh if you, as a mesmer, die by a thief, there’s something wrong with you, not with BS nor stealth.

Backstab uses initiative just like every other thief skill? As far as I know that’s not the case. Am I wrong?

Backstab is available only from stealth. How do you gain stealth ?

I see…so if CnD merely gave you access to BS without the stealth you’ll be completely ok with that?

Ahem..ahem.

With increased BS damage, to balance the lack of surpriseness, yes. Of course multiple times in a 3-4 secs window.

So the cost of CnD is not just for BS as is, but for stealth as well. Given that you can regenerate initiative when going into stealth and also recover initiative while in stealth, that’s not really a very high cost at all…

Out of all the posts here, not one person has complained about the cost of CnD. Because it’s minimal. To say you have a god given right to land a BS multiple times for the pittance cost of initiative is entirely disproportionate.

Also according to many posts here, there’s no real surprise since you know exactly where the thief is headed and when…

No? It doesn’t work that way?

bhagwad.4281:

Daendur.2357:

bhagwad.4281:

Daendur.2357:

bhagwad.4281:

Daendur.2357:

The whole thief class doesn’t have cooldowns on skills… why tu put cooldown to backstab ? just because it deals more damage ? we already said that that damage is there because of a state (stealth) and position requirement.
So no, I wouldn’t agree with a 2 sec cd on bs.
tbh if you, as a mesmer, die by a thief, there’s something wrong with you, not with BS nor stealth.

Backstab uses initiative just like every other thief skill? As far as I know that’s not the case. Am I wrong?

Backstab is available only from stealth. How do you gain stealth ?

I see…so if CnD merely gave you access to BS without the stealth you’ll be completely ok with that?

Ahem..ahem.

With increased BS damage, to balance the lack of surpriseness, yes. Of course multiple times in a 3-4 secs window.

So the cost of CnD is not just for BS as is, but for stealth as well. Given that you can regenerate initiative when going into stealth and also recover initiative while in stealth, that’s not really a very high cost at all…

Out of all the posts here, not one person has complained about the cost of CnD. Because it’s minimal. To say you have a god given right to land a BS multiple times for the pittance cost of initiative is entirely disproportionate.

The cost of CnD is you have to go into kissing range to use it. Its a very slow animation and it is easy to dodge as well. However because of culling the thief is only visible for a little bit while he does all this, making it really hard to dodge.

i can’t understand, why they do not learn to dodge the C&D, but complain about
sneak attack/backstab/Surprise Shot/Tactical Strike.
it’s a very bad l2p isue here, or i don’t get it ?

DanH.5879:

i can’t understand, why they do not learn to dodge the C&D, but complain about
sneak attack/backstab/Surprise Shot/Tactical Strike.
it’s a very bad L2 kitten ue here, or i don’t get it ?

Problem with that is, some times its hard to see it because of culling.

Also the phrase “Your bad and you should feel bad” comes to mind.

Backstab already has a lot of downsides that other comparable skills do not, coupled with the differences between the thief and other classes that have potent skills there is already lots of downsides balancing out backstab.

It really is easy to avoid, against many you’ll be able to almost totally nullify its damage using just wasd with no dodging or skill use.

Dasorine.1964:

Also the phrase “Your bad and you should feel bad” comes to mind.

Backstab already has a lot of downsides that other comparable skills do not, coupled with the differences between the thief and other classes that have potent skills there is already lots of downsides balancing out backstab.

It really is easy to avoid, against many you’ll be able to almost totally nullify its damage using just wasd with no dodging or skill use.

As I said, this is not just about BS but about any stealth skill that can be spammed ad infinatum.

If your talking about spvp plz stop now because spvp blows for crit. Although in wvw thief shines and can do massive damage if they have the power orb and food buffs and full stacks of bloodlust. He should out do ppl who conplain on forums. But you are gonna have to get over stealth its always gonna be available and just because BS does do like on a good day 14k crits you have a heal and then the elemnet of suprise is gone

Kaon.7192:

Brassnautilus.2941:

Kaon.7192:

because every other damage heavy skill will be put on a cooldown after getting dodged. Why should we get a second, third or fourth chance?

war adrenaline moves that missed don’t burn their adrenaline, and they can swap to redo (just in a different form) with no CD.
seemed fair and square to me.

Oh but you’re forgetting swap has a CD.
And this is offset by the fact that the only heavy damage burst skills for warriors are eviscerate and kill shot, and those two are not exactly chain-able for obvious reasons.

And to be clear I’m not claiming warriors not loosing adrenaline after missing is balanced. Quite the opposite, in fact.

like people already told you, adrenalin moves required no positioning and there’s no limited window to perform them. Stealth is only 3 sec (since our trait is currently bugged and does not give the 1 extra sec), and bs required positioning within that small window.

Make killshot and asseverate must be from the back.
how about misses or blocks drain half of the adrenaline that was built up?
or, how about give wars a 3 second window to use adrenaline moves, and if not performed within that time then the adrenaline goes away, that’d be fair huh?

If i 1v1ed you i can almost always stealth on you with a tactic i know and if i miss i have blinding powder and you should only see me for about a second each cloak

Brassnautilus.2941:

Kaon.7192:

Brassnautilus.2941:

Kaon.7192:

because every other damage heavy skill will be put on a cooldown after getting dodged. Why should we get a second, third or fourth chance?

war adrenaline moves that missed don’t burn their adrenaline, and they can swap to redo (just in a different form) with no CD.
seemed fair and square to me.

Oh but you’re forgetting swap has a CD.
And this is offset by the fact that the only heavy damage burst skills for warriors are eviscerate and kill shot, and those two are not exactly chain-able for obvious reasons.

And to be clear I’m not claiming warriors not loosing adrenaline after missing is balanced. Quite the opposite, in fact.

like people already told you, adrenalin moves required no positioning and there’s no limited window to perform them. Stealth is only 3 sec (since our trait is currently bugged and does not give the 1 extra sec), and bs required positioning within that small window.

Make killshot and asseverate must be from the back.
how about misses or blocks drain half of the adrenaline that was built up?
or, how about give wars a 3 second window to use adrenaline moves, and if not performed within that time then the adrenaline goes away, that’d be fair huh?

Everyone is only talking about BS. But my main point is with any stealth skill like Sneak Attack using a pistol. That doesn’t require positioning now does it?

Since thieves can choose when to go into stealth, if warriors have the same choice then no one will complain if they have a 3 sec window to activate their adrenaline skill. And if you’re comparing the two, you should be ok with stealth skills having a 2 second cooldown on miss/block/evade.

bhagwad.4281:

Everyone is only talking about BS. But my main point is with any stealth skill like Sneak Attack using a pistol. That doesn’t require positioning now does it?

yea! lets just nerf everything a thief has. because you cant handle it.

it also doesn’t do much damage and because its multi hit it would burn through your main complaint ANYWAY.

I’m sorry but thieves should not lose stealth on a block UNLESS thieves are allowed to gain stealth on a blocked hit.

So if I cnd off a guardian who has aegis up and he blocks it, I still get stealth. Warrior uses shield skill, thief still gets stealth.

Why change it? Feels like it’s working fine to me.

Dasorine.1964:

it also doesn’t do much damage and because its multi hit it would burn through your main complaint ANYWAY.

My main complaint is spammable skills that have no CD. If I have a projectile absorb dome for 1 second, it’s useless because the thief can simply rehit the skill with no downside.

How about making stealth skills use initiative if not a cooldown?

addikt.1270:

bhagwad.4281:

Everyone is only talking about BS. But my main point is with any stealth skill like Sneak Attack using a pistol. That doesn’t require positioning now does it?

yea! lets just nerf everything a thief has. because you cant handle it.

Red herring or strawman. Not sure which one

I main thief and I do agree with TC but instead of revealed on block I’d rather have stun 3 secs on block, after all you’re hitting a hard wall with your attack, it should throw you out of balance. Revealed on miss or evaded is fine though. Being able to repeat BS indefinitely is not fair especially taking into account we can stealth 100% of the time as things work now and we don’t even pay a price to stealth aside for some trivial initiative nobody cares about or some low cooldown utility.

Not getting revealed on a failed backstab is not the only thing I would change though, there are a lot of thing about thief that are op and/or do not make sense:

I’d lower BS damage. I hit for about 6000-7000 with backstab, that is way too much. I also play warrior, and I hit for about 1500 with Chop. Now, BS deals FOUR TIMES the damage that Chop delivers, that is clearly op due to the amount of damage and it also doesn’t make any sense: how would a tiny dagger deal four times the damage an axe deals? And don’t try to sell me the “but backstab is harder to land because you have to be behind an opponent, you have limited time and you have to be close range” argument: guess what Chop also is hard to land since you have limited time (opponent killing you) and you have to be melee range.

Heavy armor should negate any form of dagger damage: a lightweight weapon couldn’t in any way pierce through a steel plate. Go knife your car’s engine and try yourselves. I did, and guess what my car still works and my kitchen knife shattered, mom was really angry. Heavy Armor should also negate shortbow damage for the same reason.

I’d remove Break Stun from Shadowstep. We already have plenty of stun breakers assigned to our best utilities. Also, I’d remove cure conditions since it doesn’t make any sense: in real life, when people teleport they don’t heal their wounds…

… nor they do when becoming invisible, so why HiS should remove conditions?

Damage also should knock us out of stealth, it should require a lot of concentration to keep such an op spell up, so any damage should shake our focus and thus remove stealth.

When set afire, bystanders should be able to see the flames when we’re stealthed. How do we cloak fire is beyond me. Similarly, when stealthed armor and weapons should stay visible.

While stalthed, people should be able to target us with tab or by clicking where we stand even if invisible. After all, physically we are still there.

I’d halve our base HP also. A thief, a thin and fragile fighter, has the same HP as a guardian, a heavy armor wearer trained to fight on the frontlines. How they came up with our base HP is beyond me. Also, for the above statement, 10 vitality should raise our HP by 1 point , since I, for instance, hang around with 18000 hp.

I think everybody who doesn’t agree with TC knows not being revealed on a failed backstab is op but is fine with it because they don’t want to give up their opness, otherwise they would actually have to learn to play the class, low skilled players that now can beat everything just because they play an op class would be forced to quit thief of learn to play.

Instead I’m more concerned about keeping balance since now thief is clearly op as you can easily tear trough any bunker spec, and that’s why in tPvP you can only find five thieves teams. Seriously, in tPvP thieves are everywhere. I’d happily welcome any nerf that makes thieves more in line with other classes, so pvp will be more challenging for me since I’m getting tired of winning single handedly against other teams in sPvP, provided they don’t run thieves.

I really hope that post was entirely sarcastic else I may just suffer brain death.

Lucky Shot.7650:

I main thief and I do agree with TC but instead of revealed on block I’d rather have stun 3 secs on block, after all you’re hitting a hard wall with your attack, it should throw you out of balance. Revealed on miss or evaded is fine though. Being able to repeat BS indefinitely is not fair especially taking into account we can stealth 100% of the time as things work now and we don’t even pay a price to stealth aside for some trivial initiative nobody cares about or some low cooldown utility.

Not getting revealed on a failed backstab is not the only thing I would change though, there are a lot of thing about thief that are op and/or do not make sense:

I’d lower BS damage. I hit for about 6000-7000 with backstab, that is way too much. I also play warrior, and I hit for about 1500 with Chop. Now, BS deals FOUR TIMES the damage that Chop delivers, that is clearly op due to the amount of damage and it also doesn’t make any sense: how would a tiny dagger deal four times the damage an axe deals? And don’t try to sell me the “but backstab is harder to land because you have to be behind an opponent, you have limited time and you have to be close range” argument: guess what Chop also is hard to land since you have limited time (opponent killing you) and you have to be melee range.

Heavy armor should negate any form of dagger damage: a lightweight weapon couldn’t in any way pierce through a steel plate. Go knife your car’s engine and try yourselves. I did, and guess what my car still works and my kitchen knife shattered, mom was really angry. Heavy Armor should also negate shortbow damage for the same reason.

I’d remove Break Stun from Shadowstep. We already have plenty of stun breakers assigned to our best utilities. Also, I’d remove cure conditions since it doesn’t make any sense: in real life, when people teleport they don’t heal their wounds…

… nor they do when becoming invisible, so why HiS should remove conditions?

Damage also should knock us out of stealth, it should require a lot of concentration to keep such an op spell up, so any damage should shake our focus and thus remove stealth.

When set afire, bystanders should be able to see the flames when we’re stealthed. How do we cloak fire is beyond me. Similarly, when stealthed armor and weapons should stay visible.

While stalthed, people should be able to target us with tab or by clicking where we stand even if invisible. After all, physically we are still there.

I’d halve our base HP also. A thief, a thin and fragile fighter, has the same HP as a guardian, a heavy armor wearer trained to fight on the frontlines. How they came up with our base HP is beyond me. Also, for the above statement, 10 vitality should raise our HP by 1 point , since I, for instance, hang around with 18000 hp.

I think everybody who doesn’t agree with TC knows not being revealed on a failed backstab is op but is fine with it because they don’t want to give up their opness, otherwise they would actually have to learn to play the class, low skilled players that now can beat everything just because they play an op class would be forced to quit thief of learn to play.

Instead I’m more concerned about keeping balance since now thief is clearly op as you can easily tear trough any bunker spec, and that’s why in tPvP you can only find five thieves teams. Seriously, in tPvP thieves are everywhere. I’d happily welcome any nerf that makes thieves more in line with other classes, so pvp will be more challenging for me since I’m getting tired of winning single handedly against other teams in sPvP, provided they don’t run thieves.

I’m the parent poster and this is pretty kitten messed up. You’re probably joking of course, but one never knows…

You are joking right?

bhagwad.4281:

My main complaint is spammable skills that have no CD. If I have a projectile absorb dome for 1 second, it’s useless because the thief can simply rehit the skill with no downside.

Alternatively you could think outside the box and do something interesting with your 1 second of projectile absorb, such as taking 1 hit from the multi-hit Sneak Attack and then absorbing the rest of the attacks, resulting in the thief losing stealth, gaining revealed and doing minimal damage (One fifth of the damage they would otherwise do)

As far as the cost for stealth goes:

Cloak and Dagger – 6 Initiative
Black Powder > Heartseeker – 6 + 3 = 9 Initiative

Those stealth traits you were on about?
2 initiative from gaining stealth
1 initiative per 3 seconds in stealth (BP > HS doesn’t get benefit from the extra 1 second in stealth trait and cannot benefit from this unless they don’t attack. CnD stealth will leave you with a 1 second window for striking to get that extra initiative)

The fact that Tactical Strike and Backstab have positional requirements that can be nullified by just basic movement (Causing them to miss repeatedly or to hit from the front/side for massively reduced effects) while Sneak Attack and Surprise Shot can have most of their effects reduced by condition removal in addition to Block/Dodge/Invulnerability/Distortion/Teleport/Projectile Absorb/Knockdown/Knockback/Blind/Daze and to a lesser extent Immobilise/Chill/Cripple (Harder to get into position before stealth runs out, outside of using Shadow step cooldowns)

vinceftw.5086:

bhagwad.4281:

Daendur.2357:

bhagwad.4281:

Daendur.2357:

bhagwad.4281:

Daendur.2357:

if BS is a basic maneuver, why block it should be something requiring skill ?
You just have to press 1 button to block… Pressing 1 button is a basic maneuver

It is. But it doesn’t work obviously since BS can just be repeated.

And Shield Stance last 3seconds… also block can be repeated… so ?

I has a 30 second cooldown. I’m sorry I didn’t understand what you were trying to say…

That nothing requires skill … just press 1 button. it’s easy, a monkey can do that.
if you don’t consider positioning and timing I don’t consider cooldowns…

btw it has been stated that there are multiple options to avoid BS, not only a 30s cooldown skill.

A mesmer has a skill saying “block next attack” and lasts for two seconds. Now since stealth lasts for 4 secs, it takes anticipation and timing to use those two seconds at the correct moment. But there have been times when I use it, it works, and I still get hit immediately after that.

So I used skill, timing, I saved up my CD for a chance to use it…and what benefit do I get? Nothing.

Would you tolerate this for any other skill in the game? Come on…I’m not being unreasonable here

As for the 30 second cooldown, it’s useless as soon as the thief stealths again 3 secs later. So it’s not as if this is a hard counter to a BS. Surely you’re not complaining about it?

I have been saying this for a while now and I totally agree with you. I play a plethora of classes, as well as a thief, before anyone says that I need to play a thief.

To the people saying you can dodge, yes I can. But dodging takes a while to recover so I can’t do it infinitely. Also, you can just CnD IMMEDIATELY if you missed you backstab and went out of stealth. Press CnD again and you’re in stealth again, ready for another try.
If I were one of the devs I’d make it so blocking and a dodge removes stealth. Only those 2 though. You can still try 5 times to finally hit me, but if I actively dodge or block it, you should be revealed.

Anyway, I think this topic doesn’t matter a lot anymore, looking at the upcoming change to stealth. They will still be able to “negate” blocks but at least they can’t reapply stealth whenever they want.

I guess you didn’t get the memo vince. The devs have announced that they’re making revealed occurs regardless of whether you attack or don’t.

bhagwad.4281:

I thought you’d say that. And my response is my post is not just about BS. It’s about any stealth skill like Sneak Attack (which is also ranged).

Btw, saying you have to pull of multiple backstabs to skill someone assumes you’re relying on just one skill to down a person. I think most thieves are more skilled than that.

Ugh, now you’re just going in circles. I’m done here unless you can make a more convincing argument other than you can “spam” stealth skills and that stealth skills deal “massive damage”. If it’s not giving thieves OP damage potential or OP defense penetration, then a nerf isn’t necessary.

By the way, I was not implying that I only use backstab as my source of damage, I was implying that Killshot can potentially one shot a light armor class while backstab cannot, but I get the impression that you think a backstab can be a near one shot kill since you seem to be convinced it does SO much damage.

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

I thought you’d say that. And my response is my post is not just about BS. It’s about any stealth skill like Sneak Attack (which is also ranged).

Btw, saying you have to pull of multiple backstabs to skill someone assumes you’re relying on just one skill to down a person. I think most thieves are more skilled than that.

Ugh, now you’re just going in circles. I’m done here unless you can make a more convincing argument other than you can “spam” stealth skills and that stealth skills deal “massive damage”. If it’s not giving thieves OP damage potential or OP defense penetration, then a nerf isn’t necessary.

By the way, I was not implying that I only use backstab as my source of damage, I was implying that Killshot can potentially one shot a light armor class while backstab cannot, but I get the impression that you think a backstab can be a near one shot kill since you seem to be convinced it does SO much damage.

A backstab can hit a light armored class for 14k damage. So it’s just plain wrong to say that the damage is low. Let me know if you want screenshots.

bhagwad.4281:

A backstab can hit a light armored class for 14k damage. So it’s just plain wrong to say that the damage is low. Let me know if you want screenshots.

Go ahead. Like I said, make an argument. Be sure to provide some trait and gear info though and not just damage numbers.

I didn’t read the whole thread so I’m not going to comment on the topic till I do so but a common idea I see is that they should put a CD on back stab…bhagwad.4281 said “If BS was a regular skill it would have a cooldown…just like every other.” I just want to point out that NO thief weapon skill has a cool down, thief skill do not work like other classes, they are based off initiative. Putting a cool down on the skill would not fit the setup of a thief.

As for it not costing initiative, its part of the #1 auto attack chain (with a prerequisite of being stealth hence the high pay out)

I’ll read the thread and post my take, I just wanted to point out the flaw in some peoples justification.

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

A backstab can hit a light armored class for 14k damage. So it’s just plain wrong to say that the damage is low. Let me know if you want screenshots.

Go ahead. Like I said, make an argument. Be sure to provide some trait and gear info though and not just damage numbers.

Ninja is right, Back stab alone with full zerker gear won’t hit for 14k (on a exotic gear level 80) by its self. Now if a glass cannon thief with high might stacks, full stacks from sigil, and you had high vulnerability. Then yes probably, but it would take a thief a lot to get over 15 stacks of might (and if you even spec for high might stacks) and also put enough Vulnerability to hit that high, and to do so would cost the thief to much to make it worth it. (by him self)