Just an angry old man…
Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)
Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)
(edited by BurrTheKing.8571)
Arguments in favor of healing signet?
I have no clue what you are trying to say.
Quit complaining because you don’t like good stuff happening to warriors.
You know good and well Elementalist can heal better than Warriors and you’re trying to find an argument because of Healing Signet ticks better than it did before.
In pvp it does help out warriors just a tad and that’s about it.
But they doesn’t heal more than warriors. The math is in this thread. It heals substantially less without max healing power.
In SPVP it is 331 healing every second no healing power.
In PVE it is 367 healing every second with no healing power.This is assuming your using a spell exactly every second, using certain combinations of instant spells you can proc this off multiple times.
This is all assuming your only using a spell every second. If your using more then one spell every second An elementalist can use up to 7 spells a second.. Also this procs off itself as well. If you calculate that then it could be much higher HP/S then HS, this is all depending on your build as well. I also think it procs off sigil procs however I am not sure.
Your also forgetting the little trait: Set it Stone and Signet Mastery for Elementalists, they can keep the passive and use the active, which procs the passive again.
You still have not shown us how you came up with the previous numbers.
We all know signet traits are garbage. Don’t get me wrong, this is a great trait for SoR, but the other signets are awful. You sacrifice too much by going 30 in earth just to make SoR more effective because the other signets are not viable in pvp. How many signet elementalists do you see…? You would get more HPS going 30 in arcane than taking that trait…
I have no clue what you are trying to say.
Quit complaining because you don’t like good stuff happening to warriors.
You know good and well Elementalist can heal better than Warriors and you’re trying to find an argument because of Healing Signet ticks better than it did before.
In pvp it does help out warriors just a tad and that’s about it.
But they doesn’t heal more than warriors. The math is in this thread. It heals substantially less without max healing power.
In SPVP it is 331 healing every second no healing power.
In PVE it is 367 healing every second with no healing power.This is assuming your using a spell exactly every second, using certain combinations of instant spells you can proc this off multiple times.
This is all assuming your only using a spell every second. If your using more then one spell every second An elementalist can use up to 7 spells a second.. Also this procs off itself as well. If you calculate that then it could be much higher HP/S then HS, this is all depending on your build as well. I also think it procs off sigil procs however I am not sure.
Your also forgetting the little trait: Set it Stone and Signet Mastery for Elementalists, they can keep the passive and use the active, which procs the passive again.
You still have not shown us how you came up with the previous numbers.
We all know signet traits are garbage. Don’t get me wrong, this is a great trait for SoR, but the other signets are awful. You sacrifice too much by going 30 in earth just to make SoR more effective because the other signets are not viable in pvp. How many signet elementalists do you see…? You would get more HPS going 30 in arcane than taking that trait…
Yes, but we’re not comparing HPS, we’re comparing “ABILITIES”.
Elementalist far surpasses Warriors in HPS.
Hero {} Roleplayer {} Friend {} Professional Princess Saver
https://twitter.com/TalathionEQ2
https://twitter.com/TalathionEQ2
I have to ask, how much have you played Warrior? If at all. Hammer is hardly a simple weapon. Missing a Backbreaker can be a deal breaker because of it’s 25 second CD, and it has a really obvious animation. Hammer is similar to Guardian GS in that it has a very clear combo and missing any part of it means a dramatic reduction in effectiveness.
I honestly don’t see an absurd number of Warriors in SoloQ during the times I play. I see around an equal number of Necros, Rangers, and Warriors. If you ask me it’s more that other classes need to be brought up, not that they need to be brought down.
If you reduce the effectiveness of stuns, especially on hammer, you’ll remove it from play after it’s finally become worthwhile. Hammer is DESIGNED to lock people down, if it can’t do it what’s the point? Locking down in addition to having decent FPS and survivability is what keeps Warriors viable. We still aren’t as tanky as Guardians, nor can we burst as well as a thief. We also aren’t nearly as hard to kill as Spirit Rangers were pre nerf.
As for Foot in the Grave, you can’t overlook the fact that if you get locked down while in shroud you’re not losing HP. Necros are still very strong against most classes so it seems a bit silly to expect that you should be strong against a build designed to counter you was well. I don’t expect to be able to consistently beat a good burst Thief/Mesmer with my current build, especially if they are building to counter me. I’ve also see several power based Necros that bring poison that counter me pretty hard as well. Even Engi can bring so much protection that I can’t kill them even if I hit a full hammer combo.
And the biggest point, ANet apparently wanted Warriors to be condition Necros natural predator just like Theives and Mesmers can be to Warriors. You can’t say that necros are exactly hard to play either. In fact, no class in this game is that hard. Engi and Ele can be a bit overwhelming in # of skills at the start but once you learn them it isn’t hard either.
I’ve jumped on the bandwagon at the start of september, about.
Not claiming to be a good warrior, but the sad thing is that I succeed too much to be a newcomer of the profession.
I’ve been moving around 500-1000 in the SoloQ leaderboards, pretty much I go up when I pick Warrior and when I’m about 500-600, I change profession and play Ranger/Necro/Thief and quickly go back down again. It is crazy considering that I don’t even have half of the time played on Warrior compared to the other professions I’ve mentioned.
Missing a Backbreaker isn’t a big deal. You have so many stuns that you can afford to miss it, including Earthshaker, which rarely misses and is on a 8s cooldown when traited.
I guess you haven’t jump on SoloQ as I’ve suggested? Because warriors are everywhere, not even close compared to Necros or Rangers.
I never suggested to reduce the stuns duration, neither to remove some stuns. I’ve suggested to give reasonable cooldowns to stunning burst skills so a Warrior missing them is punished, which is far from unreasonable.
About Foot in the Grave, that’s exactly the point I made. Necros can’t mitigate damage excluding Death Shroud and to get 3/7 stability uptime, you are not using Death Shroud. I’m not expecting to be strong against build designed to counter Necromancers (that’s anyway your opinion, since as far I know, Warriors counter everything right now), I’m just expecting this game not to be a rock-paper-scissor game and to give every profession the ability to win thanks only to skills, not the build you’re running. Builds can give you only a little edge over you enemy, not completely destroy his chances to win.
ArenaNet didn’t wanted Warriors to be necros predators, that’s a silly way to balance a game. ArenaNet wanted Warriors to be again in the meta (as it has been openly said), implementing its original design properly. But as it usually happens when you push a profession in the meta, it turns out to be OP.
It happened first to Elementalists, then to Rangers and to Necromancers after. Once they got toned down, they held a fairly good representation for a considerable amount of time after the buffs, without being crazy OP as they were right after the buffs.
I never said that Necro is hard to play. I’ve just said that playing the FotM warrior build requires no skills whatsoever, with the only difference that it destroys everything in its path.
I have no clue what you are trying to say.
Quit complaining because you don’t like good stuff happening to warriors.
You know good and well Elementalist can heal better than Warriors and you’re trying to find an argument because of Healing Signet ticks better than it did before.
In pvp it does help out warriors just a tad and that’s about it.
But they doesn’t heal more than warriors. The math is in this thread. It heals substantially less without max healing power.
In SPVP it is 331 healing every second no healing power.
In PVE it is 367 healing every second with no healing power.This is assuming your using a spell exactly every second, using certain combinations of instant spells you can proc this off multiple times.
This is all assuming your only using a spell every second. If your using more then one spell every second An elementalist can use up to 7 spells a second.. Also this procs off itself as well. If you calculate that then it could be much higher HP/S then HS, this is all depending on your build as well. I also think it procs off sigil procs however I am not sure.
Your also forgetting the little trait: Set it Stone and Signet Mastery for Elementalists, they can keep the passive and use the active, which procs the passive again.
You still have not shown us how you came up with the previous numbers.
We all know signet traits are garbage. Don’t get me wrong, this is a great trait for SoR, but the other signets are awful. You sacrifice too much by going 30 in earth just to make SoR more effective because the other signets are not viable in pvp. How many signet elementalists do you see…? You would get more HPS going 30 in arcane than taking that trait…
Yes, but we’re not comparing HPS, we’re comparing “ABILITIES”.
Elementalist far surpasses Warriors in HPS.
No it does not. You don’t prove anything by throwing random numbers out there. Signet of restoration is 168 HPS. Cleansing wave is 1302/25 hps. Regen is 130 HPS with max uptime. Pulling numbers out of your kitten proves nothing. Saying eles have seven instant skills without showing those skills proves nothing.
I have no clue what you are trying to say.
Quit complaining because you don’t like good stuff happening to warriors.
You know good and well Elementalist can heal better than Warriors and you’re trying to find an argument because of Healing Signet ticks better than it did before.
In pvp it does help out warriors just a tad and that’s about it.
But they doesn’t heal more than warriors. The math is in this thread. It heals substantially less without max healing power.
In SPVP it is 331 healing every second no healing power.
In PVE it is 367 healing every second with no healing power.This is assuming your using a spell exactly every second, using certain combinations of instant spells you can proc this off multiple times.
This is all assuming your only using a spell every second. If your using more then one spell every second An elementalist can use up to 7 spells a second.. Also this procs off itself as well. If you calculate that then it could be much higher HP/S then HS, this is all depending on your build as well. I also think it procs off sigil procs however I am not sure.
Your also forgetting the little trait: Set it Stone and Signet Mastery for Elementalists, they can keep the passive and use the active, which procs the passive again.
You still have not shown us how you came up with the previous numbers.
We all know signet traits are garbage. Don’t get me wrong, this is a great trait for SoR, but the other signets are awful. You sacrifice too much by going 30 in earth just to make SoR more effective because the other signets are not viable in pvp. How many signet elementalists do you see…? You would get more HPS going 30 in arcane than taking that trait…
Yes, but we’re not comparing HPS, we’re comparing “ABILITIES”.
Elementalist far surpasses Warriors in HPS.
No it does not. You don’t prove anything by throwing random numbers out there. Signet of restoration is 168 HPS. Cleansing wave is 1302/25 hps. Regen is 130 HPS with max uptime. Pulling numbers out of your kitten proves nothing. Saying eles have seven instant skills without showing those skills proves nothing.
So your just gonna ignore the active?
Hero {} Roleplayer {} Friend {} Professional Princess Saver
https://twitter.com/TalathionEQ2
https://twitter.com/TalathionEQ2
I have no clue what you are trying to say.
Quit complaining because you don’t like good stuff happening to warriors.
You know good and well Elementalist can heal better than Warriors and you’re trying to find an argument because of Healing Signet ticks better than it did before.
In pvp it does help out warriors just a tad and that’s about it.
But they doesn’t heal more than warriors. The math is in this thread. It heals substantially less without max healing power.
In SPVP it is 331 healing every second no healing power.
In PVE it is 367 healing every second with no healing power.This is assuming your using a spell exactly every second, using certain combinations of instant spells you can proc this off multiple times.
This is all assuming your only using a spell every second. If your using more then one spell every second An elementalist can use up to 7 spells a second.. Also this procs off itself as well. If you calculate that then it could be much higher HP/S then HS, this is all depending on your build as well. I also think it procs off sigil procs however I am not sure.
Your also forgetting the little trait: Set it Stone and Signet Mastery for Elementalists, they can keep the passive and use the active, which procs the passive again.
You still have not shown us how you came up with the previous numbers.
We all know signet traits are garbage. Don’t get me wrong, this is a great trait for SoR, but the other signets are awful. You sacrifice too much by going 30 in earth just to make SoR more effective because the other signets are not viable in pvp. How many signet elementalists do you see…? You would get more HPS going 30 in arcane than taking that trait…
Yes, but we’re not comparing HPS, we’re comparing “ABILITIES”.
Elementalist far surpasses Warriors in HPS.
No it does not. You don’t prove anything by throwing random numbers out there. Signet of restoration is 168 HPS. Cleansing wave is 1302/25 hps. Regen is 130 HPS with max uptime. Pulling numbers out of your kitten proves nothing. Saying eles have seven instant skills without showing those skills proves nothing.
So your just gonna ignore the active?
I’m not sure what you mean here…
Of course you’ll do better as a Warrior, the fotm build counters what all the Necros/Rangers are running. Very few are bothering to counter it so no doubt it’ll be good.
I only really play SoloQ unless I’m short on time and need to quickly finish my daily. Like I said there seems to be a fairly equal amount of Warriors, Necros, and Rangers. If you join a match right after the last one chances are you’ll be paired up with the same people.
I’m perfectly fine with R-P-S balancing, an ideal form of that is that every class has a build that counters another classes build. That’s hard to do however but seeing as they’re focusing on buffs and not nerfs I’d say they are trying to give more options. As someone who now exclusively plays Warrior, Engi and Guardian weren’t that fun for me, I know that the Hammer/Longbow build certainly doesn’t counter everything, I listed multiple counters before.
Also, Warriors are getting nerfed in the form of the Sigil of Paralyzation change/fix/whatever. So with that and taking runs of Mel stuns will be greatly reduced in effectiveness.
EDIT: Also, take a look at this. These are supposedly the best of the best and as you can see Warriors where not over-preforming in any way.
Just an angry old man…
Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)
Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)
(edited by BurrTheKing.8571)
I have no clue what you are trying to say.
Quit complaining because you don’t like good stuff happening to warriors.
You know good and well Elementalist can heal better than Warriors and you’re trying to find an argument because of Healing Signet ticks better than it did before.
In pvp it does help out warriors just a tad and that’s about it.
But they doesn’t heal more than warriors. The math is in this thread. It heals substantially less without max healing power.
In SPVP it is 331 healing every second no healing power.
In PVE it is 367 healing every second with no healing power.This is assuming your using a spell exactly every second, using certain combinations of instant spells you can proc this off multiple times.
This is all assuming your only using a spell every second. If your using more then one spell every second An elementalist can use up to 7 spells a second.. Also this procs off itself as well. If you calculate that then it could be much higher HP/S then HS, this is all depending on your build as well. I also think it procs off sigil procs however I am not sure.
Your also forgetting the little trait: Set it Stone and Signet Mastery for Elementalists, they can keep the passive and use the active, which procs the passive again.
You still have not shown us how you came up with the previous numbers.
We all know signet traits are garbage. Don’t get me wrong, this is a great trait for SoR, but the other signets are awful. You sacrifice too much by going 30 in earth just to make SoR more effective because the other signets are not viable in pvp. How many signet elementalists do you see…? You would get more HPS going 30 in arcane than taking that trait…
Yes, but we’re not comparing HPS, we’re comparing “ABILITIES”.
Elementalist far surpasses Warriors in HPS.
No it does not. You don’t prove anything by throwing random numbers out there. Signet of restoration is 168 HPS. Cleansing wave is 1302/25 hps. Regen is 130 HPS with max uptime. Pulling numbers out of your kitten proves nothing. Saying eles have seven instant skills without showing those skills proves nothing.
So your just gonna ignore the active?
I’m not sure what you mean here…
The SIGNET of Restoration has a trait that lets you use the ACTIVE while keeping the passive.
Hero {} Roleplayer {} Friend {} Professional Princess Saver
https://twitter.com/TalathionEQ2
https://twitter.com/TalathionEQ2
I have no clue what you are trying to say.
Quit complaining because you don’t like good stuff happening to warriors.
You know good and well Elementalist can heal better than Warriors and you’re trying to find an argument because of Healing Signet ticks better than it did before.
In pvp it does help out warriors just a tad and that’s about it.
But they doesn’t heal more than warriors. The math is in this thread. It heals substantially less without max healing power.
In SPVP it is 331 healing every second no healing power.
In PVE it is 367 healing every second with no healing power.This is assuming your using a spell exactly every second, using certain combinations of instant spells you can proc this off multiple times.
This is all assuming your only using a spell every second. If your using more then one spell every second An elementalist can use up to 7 spells a second.. Also this procs off itself as well. If you calculate that then it could be much higher HP/S then HS, this is all depending on your build as well. I also think it procs off sigil procs however I am not sure.
Your also forgetting the little trait: Set it Stone and Signet Mastery for Elementalists, they can keep the passive and use the active, which procs the passive again.
You still have not shown us how you came up with the previous numbers.
We all know signet traits are garbage. Don’t get me wrong, this is a great trait for SoR, but the other signets are awful. You sacrifice too much by going 30 in earth just to make SoR more effective because the other signets are not viable in pvp. How many signet elementalists do you see…? You would get more HPS going 30 in arcane than taking that trait…
Yes, but we’re not comparing HPS, we’re comparing “ABILITIES”.
Elementalist far surpasses Warriors in HPS.
No it does not. You don’t prove anything by throwing random numbers out there. Signet of restoration is 168 HPS. Cleansing wave is 1302/25 hps. Regen is 130 HPS with max uptime. Pulling numbers out of your kitten proves nothing. Saying eles have seven instant skills without showing those skills proves nothing.
So your just gonna ignore the active?
I’m not sure what you mean here…
The SIGNET of Restoration has a trait that lets you use the ACTIVE while keeping the passive.
So now we have to go 30 into earth just to keep up with warriors who already have 75% more base health than us? You guys can go 30 points into tactics for more health too. Did i include that in my calculations? No.
The SIGNET of Restoration has a trait that lets you use the ACTIVE while keeping the passive.
And?
You’re comparing the HPS of Healing Sig with no traits to a Signet of Restoration with a 30 pts trait? How should that be meaningful?
Seafarer’s Rest EU – PvE/WvW – 8 × 80 chars.
Most used: Guard/Mes/War/Nec/Ele.
Yes, i use 5 chars at time. Because REASONS.
Most used: Guard/Mes/War/Nec/Ele.
Yes, i use 5 chars at time. Because REASONS.
Of course you’ll do better as a Warrior, the fotm build counters what all the Necros/Rangers are running. Very few are bothering to counter it so no doubt it’ll be good.
I only really play SoloQ unless I’m short on time and need to quickly finish my daily. Like I said there seems to be a fairly equal amount of Warriors, Necros, and Rangers. If you join a match right after the last one chances are you’ll be paired up with the same people.
I’m perfectly fine with R-P-S balancing, an ideal form of that is that every class has a build that counters another classes build. That’s hard to do however but seeing as they’re focusing on buffs and not nerfs I’d say they are trying to give more options. As someone who now exclusively plays Warrior, Engi and Guardian weren’t that fun for me, I know that the Hammer/Longbow build certainly doesn’t counter everything, I listed multiple counters before.
Also, Warriors are getting nerfed in the form of the Sigil of Paralyzation change/fix/whatever. So with that and taking runs of Mel stuns will be greatly reduced in effectiveness.
I guess that we won’t come to a real conclusion if you keep saying that you meet Rangers, Necros and Warriors in the same amount and I meet pretty much only warriors, so the best thing to do is to leave the population argument out of the topic for now.
The thing I’d like to point out is that rock-paper-scissor balancing is not healthy for a competitive game. Why? Because you can determine which one is going to win by just looking at the team composition. It is boring to play, boring to watch and does not rewards skill at all.
Build, as I’ve said, should give only a very small edge over your enemy if it is a direct counter, the outcome should be determined by timing, error avoidance and, of course, class knowledge, which is pretty much what skill is in Guild Wars 2.
I’ve also pointed out that Sigil of Paralyzation change is only a minor nerf to warriors. First, because the opness of Warriors does not come from the stun duration and second because Warriors have very high base stun duration.
The builds which will be hurt by this change will be those builds with small and utility-oriented CCs, like S/P on Thief, GS and SB ranger.
EDIT: Also, take a look at this. These are supposedly the best of the best and as you can see Warriors where not over-preforming in any way.
How can you say that Warriors are not overperforming posting that when you clearly see that every team have one warrior with the same Hammer/longbow build? Only FML is an exception, but they run a pretty odd team comp anyway.
Also, it is an NA tournament. It is well known that the NA competitive scene isn’t exactly the “best of the best”.
(edited by sorrow.2364)
Of course you’ll do better as a Warrior, the fotm build counters what all the Necros/Rangers are running. Very few are bothering to counter it so no doubt it’ll be good.
I only really play SoloQ unless I’m short on time and need to quickly finish my daily. Like I said there seems to be a fairly equal amount of Warriors, Necros, and Rangers. If you join a match right after the last one chances are you’ll be paired up with the same people.
I’m perfectly fine with R-P-S balancing, an ideal form of that is that every class has a build that counters another classes build. That’s hard to do however but seeing as they’re focusing on buffs and not nerfs I’d say they are trying to give more options. As someone who now exclusively plays Warrior, Engi and Guardian weren’t that fun for me, I know that the Hammer/Longbow build certainly doesn’t counter everything, I listed multiple counters before.
Also, Warriors are getting nerfed in the form of the Sigil of Paralyzation change/fix/whatever. So with that and taking runs of Mel stuns will be greatly reduced in effectiveness.
I guess that we won’t come to a real conclusion if you keep saying that you meet Rangers, Necros and Warriors in the same amount and I meet pretty much only warriors, so the best thing to do is to leave the population argument out of the topic for now.
The thing I’d like to point out is that rock-paper-scissor balancing is not healthy for a competitive game. Why? Because you can determine which one is going to win by just looking at the team composition. It is boring to play, boring to watch and does not rewards skill at all.
Build, as I’ve said, should give only a very small edge over your enemy if it is a direct counter, the outcome should be determined by timing, error avoidance and, of course, class knowledge, which is pretty much what skill is in Guild Wars 2.I’ve also pointed out that Sigil of Paralyzation change is only a minor nerf to warriors. First, because the opness of Warriors does not come from the stun duration and second because Warriors have very high base stun duration.
The builds which will be hurt by this change will be those builds with small and utility-oriented CCs, like S/P on Thief, GS and SB ranger.EDIT: Also, take a look at this. These are supposedly the best of the best and as you can see Warriors where not over-preforming in any way.
How can you say that Warriors are not overperforming posting that when you clearly see that every team have one warrior with the same Hammer/longbow build? Only FML is an exception, but they run a pretty odd team comp anyway.
Also, it is an NA tournament. It is well known that the NA competitive scene isn’t exactly the “best of the best”.
If they were over-preforming we would see multiple Warriors on each side like we did with Rangers or Necros. Them having a consistent place on a team is a GOOD thing. Ele needs to be given the ability to bunker as well as Guardian for the sake of variety. We’re seeing more team variety than ever, we even had dual Engis on TWO teams. The Winning team, Denial Esports, had Guard/War/Mes/Range/Thief, not one repeated class. Also of note, the second place team had dual Ranger and no Warrior.
RPS can work well because it means that no matter what there is a viable counter to something else. Team comp doesn’t decide the match if both teams build correctly. Granted this can hurt SoloQ but there’s nothing stopping you from switching to another character if you see that your team comp is poor. At the end of the game SoloQ is random and sometimes you’re going to get screwed by the dice.
Just an angry old man…
Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)
Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)
(edited by BurrTheKing.8571)
IMO, the effectiveness of a class should not be based off of top-of-the-line pvp tournaments. The solo q-er does not have the ability to analyze build composition and coordinate with teammates effectively. This is why we see much more independent builds in solo q than you would in these tournaments. These independent builds are generally condimancers, cc warriors, meditation/AH guardians, BM/spirit rangers, s/d eles, s/d thieves, etc… These builds bring team skills to the table but they do not function harmoniously like the builds you see in organized pvp due to the fact that solo q-ers cannot coordinate beforehand, and do not put in the effort that the extremely competitive “esports” teams put in.
Does anyone have information as to what mode is played most? I am assuming solo q-ing is far more popular than organized but it would be nice to see some evidence. I can say personally that i rarely (10< times) organized q.
If they were over-preforming we would see multiple Warriors on each side like we did with Rangers or Necros. Them having a consistent place on a team is a GOOD thing. Ele needs to be given the ability to bunker as well as Guardian for the sake of variety. We’re seeing more team variety than ever, we even had dual Engis on TWO teams. The Winning team, Denial Esports, had Guard/War/Mes/Range/Thief, not one repeated class. Also of note, the second place team had dual Ranger and no Warrior.
RPS can work well because it means that no matter what there is a viable counter to something else. Team comp doesn’t decide the match if both teams build correctly. Granted this can hurt SoloQ but there’s nothing stopping you from switching to another character if you see that your team comp is poor. At the end of the game SoloQ is random and sometimes you’re going to get screwed by the dice.
Dual profession in a team comp is extremely rare. There was no known dual Necro team comp in any tournament and the only teams who tried to run dual profession never gone too far (dual engi, for instance, in MLG tournament or dual spirit ranger of SYNC at PAX). So no, what you are saying is not correct.
RPS is not good and I’ve explained you why. A competitive game is supposed to be based on skills, not builds.
Guild Wars 1 was that tied to builds that ArenaNet decided to completely scrap it while doing Guild Wars 2, so they know that RPS is unhealthy by experience.
Man, healing signet isn’t op enough. What warrior needs, along with healing signet is soothing mist, AoE Virtue of Resolve, 2 rangers running Spirit of Nature, and maybe that warrior running Dolyak Runes and regen banner just for kicks… XD
If they were over-preforming we would see multiple Warriors on each side like we did with Rangers or Necros. Them having a consistent place on a team is a GOOD thing. Ele needs to be given the ability to bunker as well as Guardian for the sake of variety. We’re seeing more team variety than ever, we even had dual Engis on TWO teams. The Winning team, Denial Esports, had Guard/War/Mes/Range/Thief, not one repeated class. Also of note, the second place team had dual Ranger and no Warrior.
RPS can work well because it means that no matter what there is a viable counter to something else. Team comp doesn’t decide the match if both teams build correctly. Granted this can hurt SoloQ but there’s nothing stopping you from switching to another character if you see that your team comp is poor. At the end of the game SoloQ is random and sometimes you’re going to get screwed by the dice.
Dual profession in a team comp is extremely rare. There was no known dual Necro team comp in any tournament and the only teams who tried to run dual profession never gone too far (dual engi, for instance, in MLG tournament or dual spirit ranger of SYNC at PAX). So no, what you are saying is not correct.
RPS is not good and I’ve explained you why. A competitive game is supposed to be based on skills, not builds.
Guild Wars 1 was that tied to builds that ArenaNet decided to completely scrap it while doing Guild Wars 2, so they know that RPS is unhealthy by experience.
Rare? 3 of the teams had doubles and one made it to the finals. Dual Spirits no less.
You can have skill in a RPS game, it comes down to who preforms their designated roles the best.
Just an angry old man…
Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)
Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)
Rare? 3 of the teams had doubles and one made it to the finals. Dual Spirits no less.
You can have skill in a RPS game, it comes down to who preforms their designated roles the best.
It is the NA meta, you can use only the MLG tournament as sample.
In EU you barely see a single team with double profession. Also, the only time NA and EU were matched together, NA has lost 3 out of 3.
About RPS, it is not true at all. If you are rock and your enemy is running paper, you can perform as good as you like, but the chances you are going to lose are extremely high.
Its like talking to a brick wall.
Hero {} Roleplayer {} Friend {} Professional Princess Saver
https://twitter.com/TalathionEQ2
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Its like talking to a brick wall.
How are you in any way using sound logic? You bring up numbers without evidence. You expect eles to incorporate traits to make up for their lack of healing. You use anecdotal evidence. You hotjoin hero. The list goes on and on. First off, when are you going to provide us with some evidence?
Warriors have 3210840237582370 HPS and have perma invuln. See what i did there?
Warriors have 3210840237582370 HPS and have perma invuln.
Its hard to respond to a troll thread. You wanted facts and a lot of people gave you them. And you make up quotes like this.
Its went on long enough.
Hero {} Roleplayer {} Friend {} Professional Princess Saver
https://twitter.com/TalathionEQ2
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Warriors have 3210840237582370 HPS and have perma invuln.
Its hard to respond to a troll thread. You wanted facts and a lot of people gave you them. And you make up quotes like this.
Its went on long enough.
You still have not provided ANY evidence as to how you came up with your healing and instant skill numbers. “What i did there” was provide numbers without evidence… not “troll”.You say eles have more healing, yet you cannot prove it. I already gave you my numbers and math. Lets see yours.
Warriors have 3210840237582370 HPS and have perma invuln.
Its hard to respond to a troll thread. You wanted facts and a lot of people gave you them. And you make up quotes like this.
Its went on long enough.
You still have not provided ANY evidence as to how you came up with your healing and instant skill numbers. “What i did there” was provide numbers without evidence… not “troll”.You say eles have more healing, yet you cannot prove it. I already gave you my numbers and math. Lets see yours.
You didn’t take into account everything the skills had to offer, therefore pointless.
Hero {} Roleplayer {} Friend {} Professional Princess Saver
https://twitter.com/TalathionEQ2
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Nah man, you got it wrong. The hypothetical traits he could get and casts per second an ele can/could do is his point, and is fair to compare it to baseline Hsignet. His evidence is there, you’re just blind :^).
I’ve also pointed out that Sigil of Paralyzation change is only a minor nerf to warriors. First, because the opness of Warriors does not come from the stun duration and second because Warriors have very high base stun duration.
The builds which will be hurt by this change will be those builds with small and utility-oriented CCs, like S/P on Thief, GS and SB ranger.
The incomming sigil nerf is pretty disappointing. Of course, warriors are the class which currently profits most of the bug. But – as you said – fixing the sigil will screw it up for almost every other classes because they only have very short stuns or dazes. A slight increase on the warrior stun cds would have been a lot better. That way the prominent stun builds would require a little more brain activity and mindlessly spamming would be less appealing because you can’t afford missing a stun. Right now, it’s just ridicioulous because no single class can keep up with the chain stunning if the players have the same skill level.
A nice side effect would be a subjective decrease in the effectiveness of the healing signet because opponents will have more time to react and deal damage. That way they would not need to nerf the signet. Besides maybe adjusting the base healing and increasing the coefficient instead.
EDIT: Also, take a look at this. These are supposedly the best of the best and as you can see Warriors where not over-preforming in any way.
How can you say that Warriors are not overperforming posting that when you clearly see that every team have one warrior with the same Hammer/longbow build? Only FML is an exception, but they run a pretty odd team comp anyway.
Also, it is an NA tournament. It is well known that the NA competitive scene isn’t exactly the “best of the best”.
The only reason why they do not run more than one warrior is the lack of group support they offer. Additionally, the stuns and area damage a hammer/longbow warrior can provide is sufficient due two the short cooldowns. Bringing two is a total overkill stunwise.
Warriors have 3210840237582370 HPS and have perma invuln.
Its hard to respond to a troll thread. You wanted facts and a lot of people gave you them. And you make up quotes like this.
Its went on long enough.
I agree with this.
Honestly guys if you want to say something is out of balance you must come with objective, mathematical and logical hard evidence.
Else it’s just crying, and we’ll start to mock you and embarass you until you leave just like thieves do with complainers on their forum.
If you cannot make an intelligent discussion based on factual data you don’t deserve respectful answers.
Increasing the CD of burst skills yet again would mean they have to replace “Brawn” with another bonus, I highly doubt they’re willing to redesign the Discipline trait line yet again.
Just an angry old man…
Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)
Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)
Warriors have 3210840237582370 HPS and have perma invuln.
Its hard to respond to a troll thread. You wanted facts and a lot of people gave you them. And you make up quotes like this.
Its went on long enough.
I agree with this.
Honestly guys if you want to say something is out of balance you must come with objective, mathematical and logical hard evidence.
Else it’s just crying, and we’ll start to mock you and embarass you until you leave just like thieves do with complainers on their forum.
If you cannot make an intelligent discussion based on factual data you don’t deserve respectful answers.
How the kitten have i not provided you idiots evidence? Let me post some evidence again. Giving eles all the possible bonuses they can get.
Signet of restoration: lets assume somehow, an ele can mantain 1.2 spells per second. That would be equal to 202 health per second. Now lets give elementalists regen which must be traited for, and CANNOT be mantained permanently. That would be equal to 130 health per second. Now lets give them cleansing wave casting every 25 seconds (the exact cooldown, which is impossible). That would be equal to 52 health per second.
When it all adds up. WITH regeneration (which i did not give to warriors……) Elementalists have a whopping 384 health per second. That is less than a warrior gets and he doenst even have to cast any skills or even THINK about how much he is healing for. On top of that, the warrior has more base armor and more base health.
The fact that you idiots claim I am a “troll” and claim that i provide no evidence, yet you cannot even come out with any evidence of your own baffles me. The stats below are not even realistic measured of how much an ele can heal without 30 into arcane…. There is no way elementalists can keep 100% regen uptime unless they run dwayna or a glyph. There is no way they could cast cleansing wave exactly when the cooldown expired. I BOOSTED the healing capabilities and it still does not match up to a warrior. I am not even mentioning the fact that skills require timing. Ex. Skills like burning speed, fire grab, magnetic grasp, etc… require timing. This mean that SoR is not ticking while an ele is waiting to set up a skill.
SoR at 1.2 APS- 202 healing
Cleansing wave (1302/25) = 52 hps
Regen=130 hps
Once again, I would like to see any math you guys can bring up. The last time someone tried math, it was daecello thinking SoR ticks every time you damage someone….or that one idiot thinking lighting whip procs for each time it hits and being a kitten about it… Instead of just calling me a troll, why don’t you actually give me some evidence. And i know what’s coming… “well, there already is evidence in this thread!!!”. If that is the case, show me some evidence that is not “warriors have trouble with blind”. I would love to see it.
Props to the guy that mentioned blind against warriors. He seems to be the only person in this thread capable of proving a point.
Here is what i posted earlier in case you did not see. I did not give warriors regeneration or adrenal health boosts:
D/D zerker elementalist health per second: (assuming the attacks per second is roughly 1.0. Some skills are instant, thus raising this. Some skills take time and lower this. Running takes this “per skill requirement” away unless you remember to cast your 1 skill instead of spamming auras/ water 4/5 for your life.)
cleansing wave cd = 25. cleansing wave heal = 1302. Remember the cast time of 3/4s with an unspecified aftercast.
1302/25 = 52 hps.
Signet of Restoration:
168 hps.
Regeneration (we only get this when traited.) (50% uptime assuming): 130/2 = 65 hps.
Regeneration (100% up time) = 130 hps.
d/d elementalist total health per second without traits: 220 health per second (assuming that the player can instantly cast cleansing wave and it doesn’t have a cast time which is impossible.)
Warrior health per second: 392.
Warrior base HP: 18372.
Warrior base armor: 2127.
Elementalist base HP:10805.
Elementalist base armor: 1836.
Along with 172 more hps, or 107 if the ele is traited 10 into arcane, the warrior also has roughly 78.5% more HP than an elementalist does. An elementalist can not even aqquire this health even with a full knights amulet. He would need vitality runes as well. The warrior also clearly has more armor.
Also @ porkchop – I did not read any of that. Use paragraphs or indents to split up your ideas in a visually appealing and easy-to-read manner.
(edited by honovi.7893)
Good players will always destroy any warrior.Mesmers and engies especially.Healing signet has 10% more hps than surge and because it lacks burst heal it’s balanced.We are all already used to see guardians that always heal to full no matter what, eles, engies, bunker rangers.Every of those classes has more tricks than warrior to heal and considering it’s the only way to get hp back nerfing it would mean giving the warrior an unfair disnvantage that no other classes have.
We need to gain from 1 singpe ability what other classes get from waterfields plus blasts, insane raw healing like guard paired with protection, aevis, blocks and such, stealth, ds and so on.It was downright IMPOSSIBLE for a war to heal to full before even in full b unker spec and itwaz the only class in the game for 1 year with tthis handicap.
This thread is impossible to take on seriously since the op is clearly just an average pvper at best and that is generous.Any good duellist would preffer fighting a sor warrior over a hs one without flipping a coin.
You can cry about broken sigils
You can cry about Unsuspecting Foe turning bunker specs in zerker dps with zero tradeoffs
You can cry about pretty much everything in this game classes wise
But hell, if you chose to it about warriors hps and you complwtely ignore rangers e treme regen than you must be trolling us no doubt.
Ps:for the sake of my neurons.You can’t say"im comparing abilities not hps".Because warrior’s all hps is just in his heal skill and that’s itIt’ a warriors full hps pediod..Maybe in the future but still even with a shout buff you wont se warriorz heal to full like the rest of bunks.Please i beg you l2p your classes.
Pps.if you still have doubts i can show you how easy is to destroy your healsig, sigill abuser, unsuspeting foe abuser internet copy build with my own war while using none.Too funny to see a warrior charging at you in hotjoin or soloyoloque with megaconfidence only to get wrecked and never leave the zerg for the entire match.Balance is not done arround noobs vs noobs because it’s not there where classes meet their true potential.
(edited by mini.6018)
^ The bottom line is that you can’t compare any skill/trait from one class to another without taking every mechanic from both classes into account. Some things are intentionally weaker than similar skills because them being as good as that other skill will probably lead to it becoming stupidly strong.
That being said most everyone agrees that Ele is weak atm, but that’s no reason to nerf Warrior.
Just an angry old man…
Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)
Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)
Good players will always destroy any warrior.Mesmers and engies especially.Healing signet has 10% more hps than surge and because it lacks burst heal it’s balanced.We are all already used to see guardians that always heal to full no matter what, eles, engies, bunker rangers.Every of those classes has more tricks than warrior to heal and considering it’s the only way to get hp back nerfing it would mean giving the warrior an unfair disnvantage that no other classes have.
We need to gain from 1 singpe ability what other classes get from waterfields plus blasts, insane raw healing like guard paired with protection, aevis, blocks and such, stealth, ds and so on.It was downright IMPOSSIBLE for a war to heal to full before even in full b unker spec and itwaz the only class in the game for 1 year with tthis handicap.
This thread is impossible to take on seriously since the op is clearly just an average pvper at best and that is generous.Any good duellist would preffer fighting a sor warrior over a hs one without flipping a coin.You can cry about broken sigils
You can cry about Unsuspecting Foe turning bunker specs in zerker dps with zero tradeoffs
You can cry about pretty much everything in this game classes wiseBut hell, if you chose to it about warriors hps and you complwtely ignore rangers e treme regen than you must be trolling us no doubt.
Ps:for the sake of my neurons.You can’t say"im comparing abilities not hps".Because warrior’s all hps is just in his heal skill and that’s itIt’ a warriors full hps pediod..Maybe in the future but still even with a shout buff you wont se warriorz heal to full like the rest of bunks.Please i beg you l2p your classes.
Pps.if you still have doubts i can show you how easy is to destroy your healsig, sigill abuser, unsuspeting foe abuser internet copy build with my own war while using none.Too funny to see a warrior charging at you in hotjoin or soloyoloque with megaconfidence only to get wrecked and never leave the zerg for the entire match.Balance is not done arround noobs vs noobs because it’s not there where classes meet their true potential.
Good luck trying to catch me. I’ll just run away when i’m in trouble with the broken greatsword abilities. Zerker warriors have more healing Raw than what classes require clerics armor to heal for.
Engis get wrecked by warriors. They do have enoug stun breaks to keep up with the warrior. They cant kite them for the duration of berserker’s stance. If in WvW, they cannot really kite them period because of the -40% condi duration food.
There was no other class in this game not even thief or the recent necro , even close to as stupidly op ele used to be.The thing is wars were bad and never discovered unsuspecting foe until some guy made a big drawing with for them and posted it.Now every one and his quagan uses it and warrior is no more the only class eles used to faceroll.Op nerdraged, made a warrior, picked a random utility out of the skillbar and created this thread about it.Nothing more jothing less.
There was no other class in this game not even thief or the recent necro , even close to as stupidly op ele used to be.The thing is wars were bad and never discovered unsuspecting foe until some guy made a big drawing with for them and posted it.Now every one and his quagan uses it and warrior is no more the only class eles used to faceroll.Op nerdraged, made a warrior, picked a random utility out of the skillbar and created this thread about it.Nothing more jothing less.
This is 100% amazing logic. Your debate skills are truly astounding. First of all, one of my good warrior friends was running the EXACT m/s meta people are running today before the patch even started. If you knew anything about pvp, you would know that build has been around for a while, it just was not popular. No one “discovered” unsuspecting foe. It has always been there.
But hey, its alright. In the words of Sheryl Crow – “IF IT MAKES YOU HAAAAAAAAAAAPPPPPPPYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY”. Keep boosting your own ego by calling people nerds over the internet and making baseless assumptions. I hope it really makes you happy ^O^.
(edited by honovi.7893)
Good players will always destroy any warrior.Mesmers and engies especially.Healing signet has 10% more hps than surge and because it lacks burst heal it’s balanced.We are all already used to see guardians that always heal to full no matter what, eles, engies, bunker rangers.Every of those classes has more tricks than warrior to heal and considering it’s the only way to get hp back nerfing it would mean giving the warrior an unfair disnvantage that no other classes have.
I
We need to gain from 1 singpe ability what other classes get from waterfields plus blasts, insane raw healing like guard paired with protection, aevis, blocks and such, stealth, ds and so on.It was downright IMPOSSIBLE for a war to heal to full before even in full b unker spec and itwaz the only class in the game for 1 year with tthis handicap.
This thread is impossible to take on seriously since the op is clearly just an average pvper at best and that is generous.Any good duellist would preffer fighting a sor warrior over a hs one without flipping a coin.You can cry about broken sigils
You can cry about Unsuspecting Foe turning bunker specs in zerker dps with zero tradeoffs
You can cry about pretty much everything in this game classes wiseBut hell, if you chose to it about warriors hps and you complwtely ignore rangers e treme regen than you must be trolling us no doubt.
Ps:for the sake of my neurons.You can’t say"im comparing abilities not hps".Because warrior’s all hps is just in his heal skill and that’s itIt’ a warriors full hps pediod..Maybe in the future but still even with a shout buff you wont se warriorz heal to full like the rest of bunks.Please i beg you l2p your classes.
Pps.if you still have doubts i can show you how easy is to destroy your healsig, sigill abuser, unsuspeting foe abuser internet copy build with my own war while using none.Too funny to see a warrior charging at you in hotjoin or soloyoloque with megaconfidence only to get wrecked and never leave the zerg for the entire match.Balance is not done arround noobs vs noobs because it’s not there where classes meet their true potential.
Good luck trying to catch me. I’ll just run away when i’m in trouble with the broken greatsword abilities. Zerker warriors have more healing Raw than what classes require clerics armor to heal for.
Engis get wrecked by warriors. They do have enoug stun breaks to keep up with the warrior. They cant kite them for the duration of berserker’s stance. If in WvW, they cannot really kite them period because of the -40% condi duration food.
1 word facepalm.Thata what every newb warrior thinks only to be proven wronge by some vood player.
Also lets’ s check your posting history about how ridiculous eles escape , running abilities used to be.aOh wait.what a surprise i found none.Gg .i only there was a dislike option for threads, posts too.
There was no other class in this game not even thief or the recent necro , even close to as stupidly op ele used to be.The thing is wars were bad and never discovered unsuspecting foe until some guy made a big drawing with for them and posted it.Now every one and his quagan uses it and warrior is no more the only class eles used to faceroll.Op nerdraged, made a warrior, picked a random utility out of the skillbar and created this thread about it.Nothing more jothing less.
This is 100% amazing logic. Your debate skills are truly astounding. First of all, one of my good warrior friends was running the EXACT m/s meta people are running today before the patch even started. If you knew anything about pvp, you would know that build has been around for a while, it just was not popular. No one “discovered” unsuspecting foe. It has always been there.
But hey, its alright. In the words of Sheryl Crow – “IF IT MAKES YOU HAAAAAAAAAAAPPPPPPPYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY”. Keep boosting your own ego by calling people nerds over the internet and making baseless assumptions. I hope it really makes you happy ^O^.
Ugh. Now idk what’s worst.Your complete lack of understanding of even simple basics of class mechanics or your taste in music.:)
Good players will always destroy any warrior.Mesmers and engies especially.Healing signet has 10% more hps than surge and because it lacks burst heal it’s balanced.We are all already used to see guardians that always heal to full no matter what, eles, engies, bunker rangers.Every of those classes has more tricks than warrior to heal and considering it’s the only way to get hp back nerfing it would mean giving the warrior an unfair disnvantage that no other classes have.
I
We need to gain from 1 singpe ability what other classes get from waterfields plus blasts, insane raw healing like guard paired with protection, aevis, blocks and such, stealth, ds and so on.It was downright IMPOSSIBLE for a war to heal to full before even in full b unker spec and itwaz the only class in the game for 1 year with tthis handicap.
This thread is impossible to take on seriously since the op is clearly just an average pvper at best and that is generous.Any good duellist would preffer fighting a sor warrior over a hs one without flipping a coin.You can cry about broken sigils
You can cry about Unsuspecting Foe turning bunker specs in zerker dps with zero tradeoffs
You can cry about pretty much everything in this game classes wiseBut hell, if you chose to it about warriors hps and you complwtely ignore rangers e treme regen than you must be trolling us no doubt.
Ps:for the sake of my neurons.You can’t say"im comparing abilities not hps".Because warrior’s all hps is just in his heal skill and that’s itIt’ a warriors full hps pediod..Maybe in the future but still even with a shout buff you wont se warriorz heal to full like the rest of bunks.Please i beg you l2p your classes.
Pps.if you still have doubts i can show you how easy is to destroy your healsig, sigill abuser, unsuspeting foe abuser internet copy build with my own war while using none.Too funny to see a warrior charging at you in hotjoin or soloyoloque with megaconfidence only to get wrecked and never leave the zerg for the entire match.Balance is not done arround noobs vs noobs because it’s not there where classes meet their true potential.
Good luck trying to catch me. I’ll just run away when i’m in trouble with the broken greatsword abilities. Zerker warriors have more healing Raw than what classes require clerics armor to heal for.
Engis get wrecked by warriors. They do have enoug stun breaks to keep up with the warrior. They cant kite them for the duration of berserker’s stance. If in WvW, they cannot really kite them period because of the -40% condi duration food.
1 word facepalm.Thata what every newb warrior thinks only to be proven wronge by some vood player.
Also lets’ s check your posting history about how ridiculous eles escape , running abilities used to be.aOh wait.what a surprise i found none.Gg .i only there was a dislike option for threads, posts too.
Let me use your logic against you.
HEY MAN I CHECKED YOUR HISTORY.
I will not make any comments on poor(sarcasm) elementalists being weak and squishie,but why would you believe it’s fair they ele’s regardless of build are the only class that ar UNKILABLE in wvw if the stay in range of a tower?All classes can be killed/stopped including stability/block guards,invulnerable/stability warriors,invisible thieves etc.Ele is the only class that couldn’t even care less if they get downed because they will always get inside and heal regardless of the enemy effort to stop them.Unfair is unfair anyway you look at it.
Why don’t i see you complaining about necros?!?!?! You can complain about eles but not necros?!?!?! That’s not fair. You have to complain about EVERYTHING you think is unbalanced… it’s dumb if yo dont >.<.
I can’t complain about everything. There are a variety of things that i think are overpowered, but i chose to argue against healing signet because of the influx of warriors in pvp and wvw. I also did think that eles were overpowered, i just chose not to post about it. The baseless assumptions just keep on coming.
(edited by honovi.7893)
Comparing the healing of a class with the lowest health and highest health is silly. Would you think eles deserve healing surge? It heals a nice amount for warrior but completely fills an ele’s bar. Signet is the same. It’s designed for a higher healthpool. Doing some basic math from from memory they both heal around 2% of their health bar per tick. The difference in base armor is negligible it’s when it’s piled on it gets effective. Eles have access to protection which is the same as stacking close to 3k armor, wars must do that by pumping gear with it.
If I had the ability to get the Ele Earth 30 trait in my warrior defensive line, I’d trade Healing Signet for Signet of Restoration any day of the week. There’s lots of fun things you can do, especially as an ele, with low-cooldown healing skill activation combined with maintaining the passive.
Since this conversation has come around to “show me math” once again
392 Health/Sec * 25 Sec= 9800 Health
Healing Surge at full Adrenaline= 9820 on a 30 second cooldown+provides full adrenaline if you didn’t have it (a utility tradeoff)
Until a fight hits 25 seconds long, Healing surge is better numerically and provides an additional benefit/utility.
The strength that HS has is from the fact that it can’t be interrupted and none of its heal is wasted. If you poison the warrior during the fight, it begins to be outdone by HS even with the cooldown. The actual breakover point when Surge works out better overall (including cooldown time) is if you have about a 50% uptime of poison (easily done on a thief, necro, or ranger). So if you’re a condi player you should work on maintaining poison if the fight is going to go on longer than 25 seconds. If the fight isn’t going to last that long, surge is better anyway.
(edited by Maugetarr.6823)
How the kitten have i not provided you idiots evidence? Let me post some evidence again. Giving eles all the possible bonuses they can get.
Signet of restoration: lets assume somehow, an ele can mantain 1.2 spells per second. That would be equal to 202 health per second. Now lets give elementalists regen which must be traited for, and CANNOT be mantained permanently. That would be equal to 130 health per second. Now lets give them cleansing wave casting every 25 seconds (the exact cooldown, which is impossible). That would be equal to 52 health per second.
SoR at 1.2 APS- 202 healing
Cleansing wave (1302/25) = 52 hps
Regen=130 hpsD/D zerker elementalist health per second: (assuming the attacks per second is roughly 1.0. Some skills are instant, thus raising this. Some skills take time and lower this. Running takes this “per skill requirement” away unless you remember to cast your 1 skill instead of spamming auras/ water 4/5 for your life.)
cleansing wave cd = 25. cleansing wave heal = 1302. Remember the cast time of 3/4s with an unspecified aftercast.
1302/25 = 52 hps.
Signet of Restoration:
168 hps.
Regeneration (we only get this when traited.) (50% uptime assuming): 130/2 = 65 hps.
Regeneration (100% up time) = 130 hps.
d/d elementalist total health per second without traits: 220 health per second (assuming that the player can instantly cast cleansing wave and it doesn’t have a cast time which is impossible.)
What ever is left in this quote is the problem. All of that is filled with assumptions. Burden of proof is with you. You ask for math, yet you yourself are lazy with your math.
In addition, you mention base hp and armor, yet you conveniently leave out what % of that hp is being recovered or how much uptime an ele/warr has on protection.
You are comparing 2 incomplete builds (I say “build” because you can NOT compare 2 skills in a vacuum <- sounds familiar). It’s like you are comparing a half empty (or half full) glass to a full glass.
So until complete data is presented, your arguments are moot.
Comparing the healing of a class with the lowest health and highest health is silly. Would you think eles deserve healing surge? It heals a nice amount for warrior but completely fills an ele’s bar. Signet is the same. It’s designed for a higher healthpool. Doing some basic math from from memory they both heal around 2% of their health bar per tick. The difference in base armor is negligible it’s when it’s piled on it gets effective. Eles have access to protection which is the same as stacking close to 3k armor, wars must do that by pumping gear with it.
Oh. I see how it is. So now warriors get more health and more healing. That sounds fair. Protection is negligible. Warriors have a constant 15% dmg reduction whereas eles have to trait for it or use armor of earth (90s cooldown.) I would much rather have a passive 15 percent reduction than have to trait for 5s of protection and be forced to switch into the crappy earth attunement whose auto attack can be compared to a feather.
How the kitten have i not provided you idiots evidence? Let me post some evidence again. Giving eles all the possible bonuses they can get.
Signet of restoration: lets assume somehow, an ele can mantain 1.2 spells per second. That would be equal to 202 health per second. Now lets give elementalists regen which must be traited for, and CANNOT be mantained permanently. That would be equal to 130 health per second. Now lets give them cleansing wave casting every 25 seconds (the exact cooldown, which is impossible). That would be equal to 52 health per second.
SoR at 1.2 APS- 202 healing
Cleansing wave (1302/25) = 52 hps
Regen=130 hpsD/D zerker elementalist health per second: (assuming the attacks per second is roughly 1.0. Some skills are instant, thus raising this. Some skills take time and lower this. Running takes this “per skill requirement” away unless you remember to cast your 1 skill instead of spamming auras/ water 4/5 for your life.)
cleansing wave cd = 25. cleansing wave heal = 1302. Remember the cast time of 3/4s with an unspecified aftercast.
1302/25 = 52 hps.
Signet of Restoration:
168 hps.
Regeneration (we only get this when traited.) (50% uptime assuming): 130/2 = 65 hps.
Regeneration (100% up time) = 130 hps.
d/d elementalist total health per second without traits: 220 health per second (assuming that the player can instantly cast cleansing wave and it doesn’t have a cast time which is impossible.)What ever is left in this quote is the problem. All of that is filled with assumptions. Burden of proof is with you. You ask for math, yet you yourself are lazy with your math.
In addition, you mention base hp and armor, yet you conveniently leave out what % of that hp is being recovered or how much uptime an ele/warr has on protection.
You are comparing 2 incomplete builds (I say “build” because you can NOT compare 2 skills in a vacuum <- sounds familiar). It’s like you are comparing a half empty (or half full) glass to a full glass.
So until complete data is presented, your arguments are moot.
Ok. I will compare the elementalist meta build to the warrior meta build.
The ele meta right now seems to zerker be scepter dagger. 0/30/0/10/30 or 0/30/0/30/10 are what most s/d eles seem to be running. This build provides elementalists with one quick blind from lighting attunement (this is an EXTREMELY good skill.) and a slow (and innacurate) blind from the earth 3 skill. In addition, elementalists can cast their earth 2 skill in order to provide bonus armor. This skill wears off after 30 seconds so it must be cast relatively close to the start of the fight. Elementalists also get frost armor which temporarily reduces physical damage by 10%. These elementalists are also able to get boons each time they switch attunement.Finally, elementalists also get vigor from their fire 3 skill. I will provide a more visually appealing representation at the bottom.
Here are the calculations for the MAXIMUM potential healing capability of an s/d ele (aftercast is added to casted skills.) (10 points in water 30 in arcana). All values will be rounded to the nearest whole number.:
Cleansing wave #1: 1548/26 = 60 health per second. CASTED.
Cleansing wave (from the roll) = 1548/10 = 155 health per second. CASTED.
Water trident = 1548/21 = 74 health per second. CASTED. AIMED.
Signet of restoration (1.3 actions per second. This is simply not attainable with the way S/d eles play. The cast time of their lighting one skill is 2.75 seconds. SoR is going to proc mainly from their 2 and 3 skills in air. I’m being very generous here.):
168/1 = x/1.3
x = 218 health per second. PASSIVE.
Soothing mist (assuming you stay in water attunement the entire fight………. which would get you dominated.) 85 Hps. PASSIVE.
Total MAX ele HPS = 130 + 218 + 74 + 155 + 60 + 101(regeneration shown below) = 703 health per second.
I included the 100 healing power an ele would get from 10 points in water. I did not include cone of the cold because an s/d ele very rarely casts that.
Assumed elementalist health per second. You can argue these numbers all you want. They are always up for debate. The fact of the matter is that even a good player does not remember to cast his skills exactly when they end nor CAN he when playing elementalist because of attunement cooldowns. CONT
(edited by honovi.7893)
You can see which number i plugged in in my calculations. If you are going to argue it, provide your own calculation.
I also forgot regeneration in my top post. That would add 130 × 7/9 health per second which is equal to 101 health per second.
Signet of restoration – (1.1 action per second) – 168 × 1.1 = 185 health per second.
Cleansing wave – 1548/35 = 44 health per second.
Water trident – 1548/28 = 55 health per second.
Soothing mist (as an s/d ele, you are only in water attunement to cast your heals.) – 1/8 x 130 = 16 health per second.
Regeneration = 1/2 × 130 = 75 health per second.
Cleansing wave # 2 = 1548/18 = 86 health per second.
Theoretical elementalist health per second – 86+75+16+55+44+185= 461.
As i said, these numbers are all theoretical. An extremely good elementalist will get a slightly higher number than this. A bad elementalist will get a number very far below this. These calculations are from what i believe to be a moderately above-average player.
Warrior MAXIMUM potential healing. 0/10/30/10/20 ore 0/10/30/20/10. M/s GS zerker. runes of melandru.-
Healing signet – 407 health per second. PASSIVE.
Adrenal health – 405 health per second. PASSIVE.
Regeneration – 3/10 × 167 = 50 health per second.
Total maximum health per second = 862 ALL PASSIVE health per second.
Warrior theoretical health per second. I am assuming that the warrior averages around 1 bar of adrenaline. This is pretty generous seeing as how when i play warrior, i sit at 3 bars of adrenaline and block/daze/counter/stun them if I am waiting for my GS to cooldown so i can mace burst + 100b:
Healing signet – 407 health per second.
Adrenal health – 170 health per second.
Regeneration – 1/6 × 167= 28
I incorporated the 300 healing power from the defense trait line into these calculations. The regeneration comes from dogged march which most warriors run in order to keep up pressure by mitigating conditions that affect movement speed.
Total theoretical health per second – 605 health per second. ALL of this health is passive. No skill or thought is required to heal as a warrior. There is also no cast time for any of these skills. They can keep consant pressure without having to worry about healing themselves, and they can also heal while using block skills like the shield 5 ability. Long cast times affect them positively when being compared to an ele. Short cast times affect them negatively when compared to an ele.
As you can see, both the theoretical health per second and the maximum health per second are above that of an elementalist. PLEASE correct my work if you see it. I am sure i went wrong somewhere. This is simply the health per second for both of these classes. I will discuss skills later when i feel like it. I put this together rather quickly so excuse any typos/math errors.
(edited by honovi.7893)
You complain when warriors compare sor with traits added but you just did that. Actual number values mean nothing when they’re used to fill different pools. Each heal gives ~2% of the total healthpool. That means to go from 1hp to Max it takes roughly the same time. If that’s not balanced to you then this is a personal vendetta against healing signet and warriors in general.
Also you said 862 hps, adrenal health ticks every 3 so that’s wrong there.
You’d be better off comparing war’s heal with necro or eles to thief or guardian as they’re at the same healthpool wise. The elementalist and war are just so different that they can’t be effectively compared using raw numbers.
(edited by Wuflric Glacius.2078)
You complain when warriors compare sor with traits added but you just did that. Actual number values mean nothing when they’re used to fill different pools. Each heal gives ~2% of the total healthpool. That means to go from 1hp to Max it takes roughly the same time. If that’s not balanced to you then this is a personal vendetta against healing signet and warriors in general.
Also you said 862 hps, adrenal health ticks every 3 so that’s wrong there.
You’d be better off comparing war’s heal with necro or eles to thief or guardian as they’re at the same healthpool wise. The elementalist and war are just so different that they can’t be effectively compared using raw numbers.
This I think is a good way of summarizing this thread. Ele wasn’t a good option for comparison.
MORE BEARDS OR RIOT
You complain when warriors compare sor with traits added but you just did that. Actual number values mean nothing when they’re used to fill different pools. Each heal gives ~2% of the total healthpool. That means to go from 1hp to Max it takes roughly the same time. If that’s not balanced to you then this is a personal vendetta against healing signet and warriors in general.
Also you said 862 hps, adrenal health ticks every 3 so that’s wrong there.
You’d be better off comparing war’s heal with necro or eles to thief or guardian as they’re at the same healthpool wise. The elementalist and war are just so different that they can’t be effectively compared using raw numbers.
Ah. Thank you. I knew i made an error somewhere. The MAXIMUM healing for a warrior is 592 HPS. The theoretical HPS is 492 HPS.
Anyways. Ele and warrior can be effectively compared using raw numbers. Would it be fair if anet made a class with 50,000 health and had him heal for 1000 health per second? I sure do not think so… Conversely, would it be fair if they made a class with 5000 hp and had him heal for 100 health per second. They both heal for 2% of their health, but they are at a clear disadvantage…
You complain when warriors compare sor with traits added but you just did that. Actual number values mean nothing when they’re used to fill different pools. Each heal gives ~2% of the total healthpool. That means to go from 1hp to Max it takes roughly the same time. If that’s not balanced to you then this is a personal vendetta against healing signet and warriors in general.
Also you said 862 hps, adrenal health ticks every 3 so that’s wrong there.
You’d be better off comparing war’s heal with necro or eles to thief or guardian as they’re at the same healthpool wise. The elementalist and war are just so different that they can’t be effectively compared using raw numbers.
Ah. Thank you. I knew i made an error somewhere. The MAXIMUM healing for a warrior is 592 HPS. The theoretical HPS is 492 HPS.
Anyways. Ele and warrior can be effectively compared using raw numbers. Would it be fair if anet made a class with 50,000 health and had him heal for 1000 health per second? I sure do not think so… Conversely, would it be fair if they made a class with 5000 hp and had him heal for 100 health per second. They both heal for 2% of their health, but they are at a clear disadvantage…
People always over-estimate Adrenal Health, with the Hammer/Longbow build you’re using your adrenaline so much you hardly get any real healing out of it.
Comparing any sort of skill/trait across classes doesn’t work because every class is so different mechanically. One heal may be stronger than another but if the class with a weaker heal has other minor heals or boons like protection then it makes sense. In the case of Warrior the regen is high because he have no access to protection outside of runes or through Quick Breathing (which requires removing Vulnerability). This regen is strong 1v1 and even in team fights if no one is directly targeting you but you can drop them pretty fast if you focus fire. I have yet to see a “bunker” regen Warrior with banners that can survive as well as a Guardian with frequent blocks/protection.
Just an angry old man…
Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)
Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)
You complain when warriors compare sor with traits added but you just did that. Actual number values mean nothing when they’re used to fill different pools. Each heal gives ~2% of the total healthpool. That means to go from 1hp to Max it takes roughly the same time. If that’s not balanced to you then this is a personal vendetta against healing signet and warriors in general.
Also you said 862 hps, adrenal health ticks every 3 so that’s wrong there.
You’d be better off comparing war’s heal with necro or eles to thief or guardian as they’re at the same healthpool wise. The elementalist and war are just so different that they can’t be effectively compared using raw numbers.
Ah. Thank you. I knew i made an error somewhere. The MAXIMUM healing for a warrior is 592 HPS. The theoretical HPS is 492 HPS.
Anyways. Ele and warrior can be effectively compared using raw numbers. Would it be fair if anet made a class with 50,000 health and had him heal for 1000 health per second? I sure do not think so… Conversely, would it be fair if they made a class with 5000 hp and had him heal for 100 health per second. They both heal for 2% of their health, but they are at a clear disadvantage…
Honovi, I can understand your frustration and I can see where you’re coming from. Before the warrior was buffed I duelled many d/d to “improve” myself and I normally lost. I told one of them I was gutted because warrior is my main and he replied, “don’t worry warrior isn’t made for 1v1”. I was gutted, this is in WvW by the way. Anyway, I started winning and drawing more and more since we were buffed.
Now with your above argument, let’s make those numbers a little less drastic, and match them up to reality. I don’t specialize in eles although I do have one, but I think I can pretty much agree with you from all I’ve read, that the warrior indeed does have more base HP and more base healing than the ele. So in terms of raw healing, yep, I think you’re right, untraited with both characters, warrior is maybe a better healer.
Now the thing is, you have to admit it’s almost impossible to balance a game with so many different classes and skills. What I fail to see in these arguments against healing signet is the other classes mechanics and options that count towards survivability. Every time I fight an ele, they have a fair bit of protection, something that I as a warrior do not have. So let’s say per tick, an ele is healing for 150Hp/s less than I am, during protection uptime, the heals are actually greater right because you’re loosing less of your total health while protection is up.
Now let’s talk (in the ele’s example) the pets or whatever they’re called. You can carry around pets that can deal damage to me automatically right? Also depending on your attunement the elemental has another effect? So without you doing anything, I’m receiving damage and you’re receiving a “automatic” benefit.
Moving on, you have 4 attunements, so you have 20 skills to cycle through, and you’ll always have something useful coming off cooldown. You have 2 knockdowns just built into your d/d weaponsets? One is a 45 second cooldown the other is a 30 second? (earth and air knockdowns). I only have 1 knockdown aoe knockdown like that which is on a 45 second cooldown and it takes up a utility slot. I want to be able to run out of my keep, knock everyone down twice, maybe get downed, and then mist form back into my keep but I can’t because ele is the only one who can do that, that is unfair don’t you think?
Ok what I’m essentially trying to get at here is, the warrior NEEDED the boost to healing signet and his other heals, because he did not have the survivability to match up to other classes (maybe he had the same HP regen rate pre-buff but not the survivability). You have to rememeber, when I fight as my warrior, it is just me. There are no spiritual weapons or clones I have to protect or attack for me, no pets, no turrets. And I can’t go invisible like the most pathetic class in the game. I am one guy, one tough guy and I have no-where to hide, I do not have mist form to escape from being focused on and I do not have protection. All I have is one single healing regen skill (a really decent one) that keeps me alive, or maybe some healing shouts but that’s only if I spec into that which makes me useless at everything else.
I do agree with you, that healing signet probably provides a higher health regen than other classes, but when other mechanics are introduced into the equation, I don’t think it makes warriors overpowered in the overall triangle of damage a character can produce / damage a character can mitigate with class mechanics / healing per second.
I respect your arguments and I can see you’ve been called “noob” and “l2p” etc, so I hope you will respectfully take into consideration what I’ve said, and not be bitter at the fact that warriors are no longer a class that you can just beat all the time like how it used to be.
(I haven’t read this entire thread, but I would like to admit here that the mace/greatsword build with Unsuspecting Foe is over-powered and I am in perfect agreement that that FOTM build needs to be nerfed.)
Sorry about double post, it wouldn’t let me post all of this in one message.
Ok what I’m essentially trying to get at here is, the warrior NEEDED the boost to healing signet and his other heals, because he did not have the survivability to match up to other classes (maybe he had the same HP regen rate pre-buff but not the survivability). You have to rememeber, when I fight as my warrior, it is just me. There are no spiritual weapons or clones I have to protect or attack for me, no pets, no turrets. And I can’t go invisible like the most pathetic class in the game. I am one guy, one tough guy and I have no-where to hide, I do not have mist form to escape from being focused on and I do not have protection. All I have is one single healing regen skill (a really decent one) that keeps me alive, or maybe some healing shouts but that’s only if I spec into that which makes me useless at everything else.
I do agree with you, that healing signet probably provides a higher health regen than other classes, but when other mechanics are introduced into the equation, I don’t think it makes warriors overpowered in the overall triangle of damage a character can produce / damage a character can mitigate with class mechanics / healing per second.
I respect your arguments and I can see you’ve been called “noob” and “l2p” etc, so I hope you will respectfully take into consideration what I’ve said, and not be bitter at the fact that warriors are no longer a class that you can just beat all the time like how it used to be.
(I haven’t read this entire thread, but I would like to admit here that the mace/greatsword build with Unsuspecting Foe is over-powered and I am in perfect agreement that that FOTM build needs to be nerfed.)
Sorry about double post, it wouldn’t let me post all of this in one message.
Thank you for finally posting something respectfully. Here are some less drastic numbers (the top number is the ele’s base health, the bottom is the warrior’s base health. This is a proportion. This will put things into perspective if all you play is warrior. The resultant answer will be how an ele feels when fighting a warrior.):
18372 x
____ = ____ x = 31238.
10805 18372
As a warrior, would you feel like you are in a fair fight if you are fighting someone who heals 625 HPS (.02 × 31238) passively and has a base health pool of 31238? These numbers simply allow you to view things from a new perspective. If you think it is fair, then all the power to you. I just hope these numbers will allow people to view this from an entirely humbling perspective.
I agree with your statements on protection. Traited, eles have protection and it has a VERY high uptime. No other skill/trait can give you a maximum potential of 5 seconds of protection (no boon duration) every 9.5 seconds. However, warrior has a base 15% dmg reduction from his armor. Once again, this brings me to the problem of warrior being an “easy” class. All of the damage mitigation is passive. Warriors dont really need to think about how much protection they have, what skills are on recharge (besides gs…), how much regen they have, etc… They can simply keep constant pressure.
The ele’s pet is their elite. People cry when you duel with it. It is also very easy to kill. Any good warrior/other class will see the air elite and instantly go for it. The stuns that thing puts up are brutal. Yes, we have a regular skill that casts a “pet” “w/e u wanna call it idk..”. This pet is extremely squishy and deals less total damage than you would get from taking one of the arcane skills.
I see attunements as more of a negative than a positve. When i play ele, i mainly play d/d zerker ele. I do not play ele to be competitve. I play it to have fun. When i need to heal, i have to switch to water. Then i have to cast the water skill which provides no pressure on the opponent. Then i have to cast my crappy water auto attack/ water 2 skill until one of the other attunements is open. Water and earth attunement provide no pressure to the enemy. Fire attunement provides some pressure but if you miss the burning speed/firegrab, your stuck with an atrocious auto attack. The ele CAN have high pressure if he stays in air/fire, but he cannot have good healing. An ele CAN have high healing if he constantly switches attunements, but his pressure will suffer drastically because of the cast times of healing skills and the lackluster auto/skillbar attacks in each attunement.
Updraft has a cast time of 40s. Earthquake has a cast time of kitten . I would much rather have a 3s stun on an 10s cooldown, a 1s daze on a 15s cooldown, and a 1s stun that has a range of 300 and is a leap finisher (all in one weaponset), than have updraft and earthquake.
Mist form is unfair as hell. I think it’s in the game because eles have the lowest base hp+armor… but idk. It promotes eles to play like idiots. In spvp, it is perfectly balanced though.