Guild Wars 2

whats funny is…
I run 5 sig build and I’m

1. consistently the highest damage and
2. the last to die (if at all) and
3. almost always the person who contributes the most in all dungeons and fights within said dungeons

It is a very viable build if you’re not dumb as a brick…
and with the way this game works if you’re dumb as a brick…
why are u here?

Id like to know how do you know you were the highest in damage? There is no damagemeter afaik.
If you get targeted by the Boss that doesnt mean you are the highest damage.. I havent figured out what the Threatmeachanik in this game is but there seem to be several. From my experience some bosses seem to prefere classes (warrior and especially Guardian), some go for the lowest/highest armorvalue, some for the highest damage dealt and some just hit the nearest target.

Distracting and rezzing people can do everyone but other people can cure conditions or buff might/fury/something else for everyone in additon..

Most people who play a MMO seem to forget that:
overal(group) damage>personal damage.

If you do high numbers that is fine but a entire party with everyone doing medium numbers would be more dps in general than one maveric outshining everyone else.
If you abandon some damage but contribute a buff to 4 other players so that their damage increases in most cases the overal DPS increases.

So I wont judge you nor your playstyle in any way but know that running 5 sig built will reduce the groups potental by a fair amount.
Since there is no DPS meter you have nothing to prove or boast about.. A Surviving team speak for itself though.

fellyn.5083:

Jam.4521:

Can I just point out what a lot of people seem to be missing here, dungeons are TEAM content, so whatever build you have is useless unless it fits in with the team and the dungeon, I prefer the healing shouts/soldier runes/hammer build because i love the control and protection and support it gives the team, which is great in certain dungeons and especially (common one this) when people struggle to remove enough conditions. Damage isn’t great but thats not the point.

If you have a crit build that provides enough survivability then fair enough but please remember the rest of your team, frankly the people defending signet build have used the word ‘I’ way too much, fantastic if you can keep up constant fury etc but I value being able to help my team more, If your team already has enough utility to cover you then go for it. Either way its about what the Team needs, not you.

They are simply Different builds with Diffferent purposes, not better ones.

(also to those who say haha my signet build lasted longer than the other warrior, you are missing the point, my cond. removal/control build means we both stay alive)

It’s funny that you think people in pug groups care about what anyone else in the group using. Which is what the OP is complaining about.

The solution as I already pointed out is to just not pug. Form your own coordinated groups. Problem solved.

Complaining on the forums about the “problem” is just an enormous waste of time because the people here probably already know the downsides to the build.

Which is exactly my point, if people in pugs dont care about anyone else then you are pretty much guaranteed to end up with glass cannon style builds all round, so if I come in with my support build then its only going to do some good. In fact I played AC last night and noone else seemed to have ANY form of condition removal on them, it was strange considering they must know about the 2 min posions and the necros stacking 6 conditions…

Anyway, Im not having a go at the OP, just the people defending their amazing signet builds when rarely do their arguments mention any bonus to the team, in fact there was one argument there saying why should they use FGJ when they can gain more dps using the signet, I just didn’t realise people were so narrow minded.

My guild hates AC, but I’m in a place with crappy net so AC is one of the few dungeons I can actually run, doesn’t require great reactions like CoE, so I often have to pug. And its fine having good dps along, makes it run faster, you just need to make sure the support is there too, and as I said most people go dps so I go support, all works out fine.

Jam.4521:

fellyn.5083:

Jam.4521:

Can I just point out what a lot of people seem to be missing here, dungeons are TEAM content, so whatever build you have is useless unless it fits in with the team and the dungeon, I prefer the healing shouts/soldier runes/hammer build because i love the control and protection and support it gives the team, which is great in certain dungeons and especially (common one this) when people struggle to remove enough conditions. Damage isn’t great but thats not the point.

If you have a crit build that provides enough survivability then fair enough but please remember the rest of your team, frankly the people defending signet build have used the word ‘I’ way too much, fantastic if you can keep up constant fury etc but I value being able to help my team more, If your team already has enough utility to cover you then go for it. Either way its about what the Team needs, not you.

They are simply Different builds with Diffferent purposes, not better ones.

(also to those who say haha my signet build lasted longer than the other warrior, you are missing the point, my cond. removal/control build means we both stay alive)

It’s funny that you think people in pug groups care about what anyone else in the group using. Which is what the OP is complaining about.

The solution as I already pointed out is to just not pug. Form your own coordinated groups. Problem solved.

Complaining on the forums about the “problem” is just an enormous waste of time because the people here probably already know the downsides to the build.

Which is exactly my point, if people in pugs dont care about anyone else then you are pretty much guaranteed to end up with glass cannon style builds all round, so if I come in with my support build then its only going to do some good. In fact I played AC last night and noone else seemed to have ANY form of condition removal on them, it was strange considering they must know about the 2 min posions and the necros stacking 6 conditions…

Anyway, Im not having a go at the OP, just the people defending their amazing signet builds when rarely do their arguments mention any bonus to the team, in fact there was one argument there saying why should they use FGJ when they can gain more dps using the signet, I just didn’t realise people were so narrow minded.

My guild hates AC, but I’m in a place with crappy net so AC is one of the few dungeons I can actually run, doesn’t require great reactions like CoE, so I often have to pug. And its fine having good dps along, makes it run faster, you just need to make sure the support is there too, and as I said most people go dps so I go support, all works out fine.

Are you saying signet builds don’t have any condition removal? ;P

Just the ones I encountered last night, it did kinda work well, he played near me and i removed his conditions while he dps’d away, I did have to rez him a lot though…

all signet warriors have at least signet of stamina, a long cooldown mass condition removal.

Due to the cooldown, and the fact that the passive is more useful in general (perma halfvigor), the active is barely used. Some people even forget the active exists at all and just want a signet for the precision buff from traits…

And using some of the signets reduces the damage you do, which was the reason to use this build in the first place.Just using 2 signets means you drop to 120 precision…any other glass cannon-clone, but with all utilities effectively granting 120 precision…(1 signet is Rage, other is perhaps cond.removal or w/e).
The 5 signet is good only in solo play.Anyone saying it’s good in dungeons simply isn’t right.
I’ve had dungeon runs with 5 signet heroes that have said they’re better than me coz they die less than me.What such heroes forget, is actually how good they are when a boss targets them for more than 3 seconds.Which in fact doesn’t happen almost at all from my experience.

Nergrom.7592:

all signet warriors have at least signet of stamina, a long cooldown mass condition removal.

Due to the cooldown, and the fact that the passive is more useful in general (perma halfvigor), the active is barely used. Some people even forget the active exists at all and just want a signet for the precision buff from traits…

It’s not like warriors have that many options for condition removal to begin with. Outside of mending you either remove 1 condition every 25 seconds or all conditions every 45 seconds, slightly less if traited.

There’s also quick breathing and restorative strength, but those are both build dependent and situational.

1. mending
2. sigil that removes conditions on crit
3. 3 shouts with soldier rune (don’t even need to trait them to provide better group utility than signets and will remove 4 conditions every 30 seconds, staggerable)
4. signet of stamina active
5. warhorn (better if traited, you could make your offhand weapon set axe/warhorn)
6. restorative strength (strength trait, 10 pointer too)

granted, some of these are suboptimal, or only cover a certain range of conditions…

but we do, indeed, have a nice variety.

edit:
7. as mentioned, the non soldier runed “shake it off”

edit 2:
8. mobile strikes (only roots though)

Nergrom.7592:

1. mending
2. sigil that removes conditions on crit
3. 3 shouts with soldier rune (don’t even need to trait them to provide better group utility than signets and will remove 4 conditions every 30 seconds, staggerable)
4. signet of stamina active
5. warhorn (better if traited, you could make your offhand weapon set axe/warhorn)
6. restorative strength (strength trait, 10 pointer too)

granted, some of these are suboptimal, or only cover a certain range of conditions…

but we do, indeed, have a nice variety.

edit:
7. as mentioned, the non soldier runed “shake it off”

edit 2:
8. mobile strikes (only roots though)

I was pointing out ones that don’t require sigils/runes or specific builds.

That being said there is also a sigil of nullification.

This is within the context of how signet warriors could alter their builds slightly to accomodate more utility for the team and themselves at the cost of less theoretical damage (no damage if dead, yadda yadda). This also includes glass cannon survivability, if you want to bring only pain, you better live to see it land…

Switching out the signets for shouts and getting soldier runes will work (much better if traited, but without it’s still viable and better than full signets for the group as a whole). Axe/warhorn will work (better if traited, but good enough without seeing as with the vigor buff you have 1.5 vigor on you.. hmmm, dodges…. also, group buffing).

Remembering that one of your signets removes conditions will work (90 precision vs not dead…. a concept many don’t seem to grasp)!

Also,
9. lyssa runes. Dem Lyssa runez

On my warrior I don’t mind them since I bring a bunch of group support myself but on any of my other characters I can’t stand a full signet warrior. Just putting FGJ on their bar without traits would go a long way.

I play 5x signets with berserkers armor in every dungeon, and I usually die less than everyone else.. Yeah, it’s a really simple build that everyone uses. Why? Because it does an amazing amount of damage, especially with axe/shield. Don’t get pissed at someone for using an incredibly popular build just because it’s incredibly popular.

Its easy… press kick and let the party deicide…

If they are good for something, your party will keep them. If they are useless, your party will vote yes and get rid of the 5 sig curse.

IMO, they are useless, I couldn’t care less for whoever is doing the most damage and I will always preffer an AOE condition removal, AOE regen, AOE might/fury, etc; rather than someone who hits 500 damage harder.

insane damage with selfish skills → useless…

buts thats just me! you have 3 other guys in the group to decide: “Kick 5 signet warrior with GS: Yes – No”

Mesket.5728:

Its easy… press kick and let the party deicide…

If they are good for something, your party will keep them. If they are useless, your party will vote yes and get rid of the 5 sig curse.

IMO, they are useless, I couldn’t care less for whoever is doing the most damage and I will always preffer an AOE condition removal, AOE regen, AOE might/fury, etc; rather than someone who hits 500 damage harder.

insane damage with selfish skills -> useless…

buts thats just me! you have 3 other guys in the group to decide: “Kick 5 signet warrior with GS: Yes – No”

You’d kick someone who doesn’t have the utilities you want him to have? That sounds pretty selfish to me.

KazNaka.4718:

Mesket.5728:

Its easy… press kick and let the party deicide…

If they are good for something, your party will keep them. If they are useless, your party will vote yes and get rid of the 5 sig curse.

IMO, they are useless, I couldn’t care less for whoever is doing the most damage and I will always preffer an AOE condition removal, AOE regen, AOE might/fury, etc; rather than someone who hits 500 damage harder.

insane damage with selfish skills -> useless…

buts thats just me! you have 3 other guys in the group to decide: “Kick 5 signet warrior with GS: Yes – No”

You’d kick someone who doesn’t have the utilities you want him to have? That sounds pretty selfish to me.

No, not me… the party will. Its democracy without the guns!

Just saying, don’t start a debate here to see if solo utility works in team play. Let the vote kick decide!

Mesket.5728:

Its easy… press kick and let the party deicide…

If they are good for something, your party will keep them. If they are useless, your party will vote yes and get rid of the 5 sig curse.

IMO, they are useless, I couldn’t care less for whoever is doing the most damage and I will always preffer an AOE condition removal, AOE regen, AOE might/fury, etc; rather than someone who hits 500 damage harder.

insane damage with selfish skills -> useless…

buts thats just me! you have 3 other guys in the group to decide: “Kick 5 signet warrior with GS: Yes – No”

One major Grand Canyon sized hole in this idea of yours. You take action against the warrior because he’s using a build you don’t like by kicking him yet what about the other 4 players in the group who can be using equally bad builds for the respective classes?

The only difference between the warrior and other classes is that you know when the warrior is using 5 signets.

Kicking people because they use builds you don’t like in a PUG group is not the solution. We’ve already been over what the solution actually is.

P.S. I’d rather group with 5 signet warriors than elitist snobs who think they get to dictate what every one else is using, especially in PUG groups. Those are the guys that make dungeon runs not fun.

Oh yes I would, without a second thought.
Why? Because he no longer is depending only on himself.He depends on 4 other people, and they depend on him.His success will be theirs, and vice-versa.
That’s why when you use such a single-player build in a team situation, you fail big time.

Oh, and I’ll break it down a bit for some of you.The reason you don’t die much/ever as 5 signet, is because you are a non-factor.Aggro is generated by quite a lot of factors – your health, armor, damage done, are you ressing someone(oh yes, troll bosses are so fun).So the only time a boss will target a 5 signet warrior, is when that warrior is either on half HP or less, or his party members are doing so little damage, that he miraculously is the top dps-er.
I’m honestly baffled.How do any of you consider that the 5 signet build is even remotely viable for dungeons, or even 60-70lvl+?
At 80 in dungeon, you drop a precision banner, and just the precision from it is like 60% of the precision gained by using almost all your utility skills for, not counting the crit damage boost.Point is, this build is not for damage doing.The increase it provides is abysmally small compared to the alternatives.

The question isn’t it’s viability. The question is why are you expecting more from people in pugs? Which is likely the only time you’re ever going to encounter a 5 signet warrior.

Seems to me that you guys keep missing this point. If you want to tell people what they can and cannot use then don’t pug. This will solve 100% of all your problems with 5 signet warriors.

You join a group of 4 random people you should expect 4 mediocre builds with 4 different skill levels.

You guys are trying to be elitists against PUGS but that’s just not going to cut it. Your solution is to make a pre-arranged group with the idea in mind that you’ll be using builds that have synergy with the 4 other people/builds in the group.

Problem solved.

And you’re mistaking what elitism is.The term means that some people only want the best of the best from their own performance and others’ as well, and will go to great lengths to make everyone they want do 110%.Elitism in this situation would be if there was 1 cookie cutter super-optimal dungeon build, and we would say we’d kick anyone who doesn’t use it.That is elitism.
I don’t care what warriors use, honestly, as long as it is not a 5 signet.

fellyn.5083:

Mesket.5728:

Its easy… press kick and let the party deicide…

If they are good for something, your party will keep them. If they are useless, your party will vote yes and get rid of the 5 sig curse.

IMO, they are useless, I couldn’t care less for whoever is doing the most damage and I will always preffer an AOE condition removal, AOE regen, AOE might/fury, etc; rather than someone who hits 500 damage harder.

insane damage with selfish skills -> useless…

buts thats just me! you have 3 other guys in the group to decide: “Kick 5 signet warrior with GS: Yes – No”

One major Grand Canyon sized hole in this idea of yours. You take action against the warrior because he’s using a build you don’t like by kicking him yet what about the other 4 players in the group who can be using equally bad builds for the respective classes?

The only difference between the warrior and other classes is that you know when the warrior is using 5 signets.

Kicking people because they use builds you don’t like in a PUG group is not the solution. We’ve already been over what the solution actually is.

P.S. I’d rather group with 5 signet warriors than elitist snobs who think they get to dictate what every one else is using, especially in PUG groups. Those are the guys that make dungeon runs not fun.

PUG = Pick Up Group

I don’t read 5 solo players from there… I read 5 players who didn’t know each other till that moment.

I expect from PUGs what I should expect from a PUG, players willing to form a team. Not a 5 man running close to each other but a team.

I’m not elitist, its funy you consider me that. I don’t care how you build your char as long as you understand that the sum of a group should be greater than 5 alone.

I’ll give you this example:

Signet of Might or FGJ? 2 warriors shouting FGJ will get better benefit than 2 guys using signet of might for their own… understand this and you will understand my point. (This in particular is not that important but try to get the big picture)

Ivanov.8914:

And you’re mistaking what elitism is.The term means that some people only want the best of the best from their own performance and others’ as well, and will go to great lengths to make everyone they want do 110%.Elitism in this situation would be if there was 1 cookie cutter super-optimal dungeon build, and we would say we’d kick anyone who doesn’t use it.That is elitism.
I don’t care what warriors use, honestly, as long as it is not a 5 signet.

You’re using the term elitist in a positive way. I’m using it in a negative way. To me elitists are kitten that join groups and think they get to tell everyone what to do because they think they know best.

Which is just laughable when you’re in a pug group. True elite players will never pug unless they want the added challenge of being in a group of 4 random strangers with varying skill levels and builds and chance of success is not 100%.

Mesket.5728:

fellyn.5083:

Mesket.5728:

Its easy… press kick and let the party deicide…

If they are good for something, your party will keep them. If they are useless, your party will vote yes and get rid of the 5 sig curse.

IMO, they are useless, I couldn’t care less for whoever is doing the most damage and I will always preffer an AOE condition removal, AOE regen, AOE might/fury, etc; rather than someone who hits 500 damage harder.

insane damage with selfish skills -> useless…

buts thats just me! you have 3 other guys in the group to decide: “Kick 5 signet warrior with GS: Yes – No”

One major Grand Canyon sized hole in this idea of yours. You take action against the warrior because he’s using a build you don’t like by kicking him yet what about the other 4 players in the group who can be using equally bad builds for the respective classes?

The only difference between the warrior and other classes is that you know when the warrior is using 5 signets.

Kicking people because they use builds you don’t like in a PUG group is not the solution. We’ve already been over what the solution actually is.

P.S. I’d rather group with 5 signet warriors than elitist snobs who think they get to dictate what every one else is using, especially in PUG groups. Those are the guys that make dungeon runs not fun.

PUG = Pick Up Group

I don’t read 5 solo players from there… I read 5 players who didn’t know each other till that moment.

I expect from PUGs what I should expect from a PUG, players willing to form a team. Not a 5 man running close to each other but a team.

I’m not elitist, its funy you consider me that. I don’t care how you build your char as long as you understand that the sum of a group should be greater than 5 alone.

I’ll give you this example:

Signet of Might or FGJ? 2 warriors shouting FGJ will get better benefit than 2 guys using signet of might for their own… understand this and you will understand my point. (This in particular is not that important but try to get the big picture)

What you expect and the actual reality of how things are is completely different. Evidenced by the fact that this thread exists.

PUG = Pick Up Group = 5 random players trying to do a dungeon, with 5 random builds, with 5 different skill levels, with 5 different goals. You should expect nothing less and nothing more and you won’t come out the other end disappointed.

Like I said, the solution is to just not pug instead of expecting 4 random people to conform to your idea of what is good or bad.

fellyn.5083 I’m not gonna create a page long quote war but I’ll reply to you here:

Elitist as it was described by Ivanov are the bad way, and those are laughable. 5 signet warriors trying to run a dungeon are also laughable. The fact that this thread exists is as relevant as the fact that people complain about Gigantus Lupicus being hard.

I don’t force or expect people to run a certain build… but if you have absolutly 0 tools to assist your party mates, then I’m sorry but you are better on your own; and like I said in my first post… Since I could be wrong, let the other 3 guys in the group give their opinion as well voting YES or NO

Be that as it may. I’ll never think kicking people from a group just because they are using a build some one doesn’t like is okay. Especially in a group 4 other random strangers. They are just as entitled to be there as you and anyone else is.

So once again…the solution is to just not pug. It’s really that simple. Interestingly enough I don’t ever join a group of 4 other random strangers so I haven’t ever encountered a problem where I had to kick some one for using a bad build.

Forum moderators should really consolidate these same discussions:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/GS-warriors-with-4-5-signets-in-Dungeons-anyone-else-hate-this

There has been at least a dozen threads about this topic since this one too.

I just lol @ it all. I run 4 signets and generally outperform anyone in the group. Baddies are baddies – regardless of how many signets they have on. Sorry you fail to comprehend the difference. I’ve never been kicked from a group for running signets, or even had anyone say anything to me about it. I do, on the other hand, generally have a wall of pink text when I log in of people begging me to run with them… lmfao

Shadowfist.2708:

Sounds like someone needs peanut butter to go with all that jelly

Sry, not from the US. I don’t get that “joke”. Do you like peanut butter? I don’t like it myself… but your taste for peanut butter and jelly is not what we are discussing here.

Now, if you have nothing else to add to the debate I suggest you keep youself away from posting before you get moderated.

Perhaps you should read above when the rest of us discussed why 4-5 signets is being considered as a bad player build. Read and use arguments to discuss, not e-pen measurement.

Just a question, which is the problem that everyone has with the 5sig build:

1) 5 sig build where they never use their sigs at all
2) 5 sig build even when they use the sig’s active effects
3) The fact that 5 sig build is pure solo play

I can see where both one and three would be annoying, but I actually almost constantly have three of my sigs on cd. If I join a PUG with no support I’ll throw in FGJ and a banner or two to actually provide more team support, if not I’ll just provide support via weapon skills.

But if the problem is just with 5sig being purely solo, then every class has a build similar. The problem isn’t that 5sig is good or bad, the problem is every class has at least one solo style build play and while by themselves can be fine, when thrown into group play, the support just isn’t there. Isn’t that more of a problem, or at least it isn’t purely a warrior problem.

Mesket.5728:

Now, if you have nothing else to add to the debate I suggest you keep youself away from posting before you get moderated.

Before I get moderated… like your ignorant little rant post did? Maybe you should take your own advice junior.

The point is, you all come here and complain/stomp your feet about signet builds and call them “Bad” builds when the truth is, not everyone chooses to play as support, and THATS why you think it’s bad, because they don’t play the way you want them to play. Maybe you don’t know this, so allow me to make this clear to you: raw DPS warrior builds are not necessarily squishy, nor do they have to support the group. Not all builds have to support the group. THATS THE ENTIRE CONCEPT OF ALLOWING PEOPLE TO SPEC SUPPORT OR DPS.

As a DPS/signet warrior I’m not squishy, I survive more than comfortably, and I consistently hit like a mack truck. People LIKE having me in a group because they know this is going to be a fast, easy, meat grinder run. We bring OTHER people for support. Thief builds that don’t support the group aren’t “bad” because it’s obvious common sense that they are in a DPS build. Same thing.

My DPS more than compensates for the lack of some limp-wristed support. Get over yourselves. Warriors can be extremely effective and useful to a group as DPS without support. Not that hard to understand. Not every class in a group has to be support. In fact, it’s idiotic to have everyone in a group running support.

Shadowfist.2708:

Mesket.5728:

Now, if you have nothing else to add to the debate I suggest you keep youself away from posting before you get moderated.

Before I get moderated… like your ignorant little rant post did? Maybe you should take your own advice junior.

The point is, you all come here and complain/stomp your feet about signet builds and call them “Bad” builds when the truth is, not everyone chooses to play as support, and THATS why you think it’s bad, because they don’t play the way you want them to play. Maybe you don’t know this, so allow me to make this clear to you: raw DPS warrior builds are not necessarily squishy, nor do they have to support the group. Not all builds have to support the group. THATS THE ENTIRE CONCEPT OF ALLOWING PEOPLE TO SPEC SUPPORT OR DPS.

As a DPS/signet warrior I’m not squishy, I survive more than comfortably, and I consistently hit like a mack truck. People LIKE having me in a group because they know this is going to be a fast, easy, meat grinder run. We bring OTHER people for support. Thief builds that don’t support the group aren’t “bad” because it’s obvious common sense that they are in a DPS build. Same thing.

My DPS more than compensates for the lack of some limp-wristed support. Get over yourselves. Warriors can be extremely effective and useful to a group as DPS without support. Not that hard to understand. Not every class in a group has to be support. In fact, it’s idiotic to have everyone in a group running support.

Seems you honestly have no idea what you’re talking about.There should not be pure dps builds, for the mere fact that there are no pure tank builds and nothing can provide a secure environment for you to go crazy.
The best builds(for dungeons at least) are those that provide not only a fair amount of damage, but a good support and enough armor/hp that you won’t die just from being looked at the wrong way.
I have said this about a million freaking times already – a single utility skill provides more damage than all of the utility slots+major trait focus(signet trait)of 5 signet. Everyone chooses how to play by himself, they’s free to do so.Solo builds are something people don’t care about.But if in a dungeon you fail and do sub par cuz of the build, you’re pulling down 4 other people.PUGs or not, one should at least try to help out instead of mash 2 buttons till his fingers start bleeding.And as said before, if you do well as 5 signet, either you’re carried, or the dungeons are that easy.

The reason I quoted you is because you don’t understand the train of thoughts of this thread, and if you do, you quite well try to derail it.Don’t start discussing things that aren’t mentioned just to somehow prove valid an otherwise hollow point.

If you dont like what ppl spec then dont call out for pugs.
Who are any of you QQing about specs to tell other people what to use. Ive been in plenty of groups where warriors were not running 5 sigs but full tank and had the dps of a wet noodle. We didnt kick them or even say a word, we were happy to have a 4 or 5 member.

Koop.4602:

If you dont like what ppl spec then dont call out for pugs.
Who are any of you QQing about specs to tell other people what to use. Ive been in plenty of groups where warriors were not running 5 sigs but full tank and had the dps of a wet noodle. We didnt kick them or even say a word, we were happy to have a 4 or 5 member.

If you have nothing constructive to add to the topic, then don’t post at all.Do yourself a favor and read this thread from the start.Doing so will answer most/all your questions.

Ivanov.8914:

Koop.4602:

If you dont like what ppl spec then dont call out for pugs.
Who are any of you QQing about specs to tell other people what to use. Ive been in plenty of groups where warriors were not running 5 sigs but full tank and had the dps of a wet noodle. We didnt kick them or even say a word, we were happy to have a 4 or 5 member.

If you have nothing constructive to add to the topic, then don’t post at all.Do yourself a favor and read this thread from the start.Doing so will answer most/all your questions.

Just stating the fact that if you dont like want other people spec then dont ask for pugs. Problem solved

Ivanov.8914:

Seems you honestly have no idea what you’re talking about.There should not be pure dps builds, for the mere fact that there are no pure tank builds and nothing can provide a secure environment for you to go crazy.

Well, first of all, the fact that you’ve come in here and stated “there should not be pure dps builds” shows that you are, in fact, the one with no idea what you’re talking about. That’s simply, flat out, incorrect. Secondly, I’ve logged over 350 hours on my warrior alone so I’m familiar with this topic. Thanks. However, if you’d like to continue trying to dismiss my opinion in order to try and vindicate your own opinion because I blatantly call out the hypocrisy and nonsense posted here, feel free to do so. I find it amusing. Groups with 2 or 3 support built players and 2 or 3 DPS focused builds are just fine so long as you’re not just a terrible player.

Ivanov.8914:

The best builds(for dungeons at least) are those that provide not only a fair amount of damage, but a good support and enough armor/hp that you won’t die just from being looked at the wrong way.

Wrong, again. (Starting to see a pattern here.) Individual makeup is nowhere near as important as the groups makeup. The only point I can even remotely agree with without laughing is that you should have enough armor/hp that you won’t die from just being looked at the wrong way. You seem to think that all high DPS builds have to be glass cannons.. and this is blatantly wrong as well.

Ivanov.8914:

I have said this about a million freaking times already – a single utility skill provides more damage than all of the utility slots+major trait focus(signet trait)of 5 signet. Everyone chooses how to play by himself, they’s free to do so.Solo builds are something people don’t care about.But if in a dungeon you fail and do sub par cuz of the build, you’re pulling down 4 other people.PUGs or not, one should at least try to help out instead of mash 2 buttons till his fingers start bleeding.And as said before, if you do well as 5 signet, either you’re carried, or the dungeons are that easy.

I run 4 signets with either Endure Pain or FGJ, depending on the situation I’m in. The 250 precision from those signets provides more crits, which is more damage. I’m not sure how your brain warped this in to not being useful. More damage to the mob means fast kills and less damage to the group. Common sense applies. As far as “pulling down groups” and “performing sub par”… I can only assume you’re referencing your own life story, as this has yet to happen in my groups. And mash two buttons? Are you daft? DPS builds involve a lot more than mashing two buttons.. lmfao. I carry people. I don’t need carrying.

I don’t think you, or half the people in this thread, understand the bigger picture. Just last night we pulled a group of two vets in CoF. I took the one on the left, the group took the one on the right. By time they finished dropping the one on the right, I had mine down to ~45% health and I was still comfortably hacking away with ~60% of my own health remaining. Think about that for a minute. Two mobs with the same health pool and in the time that it took FOUR people to kill one of them, a well built and intellectually played signet warrior had the remaining mob down below half health and kept him from engaging anyone else in the group.

I literally receive whispers from people telling me that I’m a kittening beast, that they’ve never seen a warrior pull stunts like that, and asking if they can call on me for runs in the future. This happens at least once a week.

So if I’m so godawful terrible as you all want to come in here and claim, why am I putting people like you to shame?

Easy answer. It’s not the build. It’s not the player. It’s the combination of the build, and how well the player utilizes it. Stop trying to say a build is bad because you’re bad. It makes you look really foolish.

Ivanov.8914:

And as said before, if you do well as 5 signet, either you’re carried, or the dungeons are that easy.

5-signet Warriors are still more useful than Necromancers, Elementalists, Rangers, Thiefs and Mesmers no matter what build they have.

Yes, 3- or 4-signet builds are better, but the difference is minor (<5%).

@Shadowfist

I would honestly try to reply, but I guess your awesomeness blinded me.Such greatness as yours is one of a kind.I bow to you!But I guess I should make a feeble attempt nonetheless.

Did you read my last paragraph? You go on about things I either haven’t mentioned, or things that have completely different meaning behind them.
First off, the removal of the holy trinity(tank,healer,dps) means that there should not be a pure dps class.I said should not , I didn’t say is not .Comprehensive reading, I like it!
I’d also like to see you quote any hypocrisy and nonsense here, especially hypocrisy.

Shadowfist.2708:

Wrong, again. (Starting to see a pattern here.) Individual makeup is nowhere near as important as the groups makeup. The only point I can even remotely agree with without laughing is that you should have enough armor/hp that you won’t die from just being looked at the wrong way. You seem to think that all high DPS builds have to be glass cannons.. and this is blatantly wrong as well.

I don’t seem to think what you think.You have no idea what I think outside of what I write.So I say it again – don’t put words in my mouth to make your points more valid.
And what do you mean by individual<group, considering you run a single player sub par build in a team fighting zone?Even more so, if you’re in a pug(or even a guild group) and it turns out that your group lacks support(as far as a single aoe might buff) are you still stubbornly going to run your precious 5 signet?Talk about teamwork when you contribute more than what a stronger ranger pet would provide.

Shadowfist.2708:

I run 4 signets with either Endure Pain or FGJ, depending on the situation I’m in. The 250 precision from those signets provides more crits, which is more damage. I’m not sure how your brain warped this in to not being useful. More damage to the mob means fast kills and less damage to the group. Common sense applies. As far as “pulling down groups” and “performing sub par”… I can only assume you’re referencing your own life story, as this has yet to happen in my groups. And mash two buttons? Are you daft? DPS builds involve a lot more than mashing two buttons.. lmfao. I carry people. I don’t need carrying.

Now you go very close to direct insulting.Yet for all those 380 hours played, you didn’t notice that the trait gives 40 precision per trait for a max of the grand 200.Oh but wait! you’d want to use your elite right? So that means your whole build gives 160 precision and effectively locks 3 utilities and a healing skill just for the sake of sub par damage increase.You also lose a trait slot for all this…goodness…I just won’t comment the common sense part…

Shadowfist.2708:

I don’t think you, or half the people in this thread, understand the bigger picture. Just last night we pulled a group of two vets in CoF. I took the one on the left, the group took the one on the right. By time they finished dropping the one on the right, I had mine down to ~45% health and I was still comfortably hacking away with ~60% of my own health remaining. Think about that for a minute. Two mobs with the same health pool and in the time that it took FOUR people to kill one of them, a well built and intellectually played signet warrior had the remaining mob down below half health and kept him from engaging anyone else in the group.

So, the bigger picture is that you’re a beast that can solo the game while a volcano erupts in the background with metal theme rocking along?Suuure.
How do you play 5 signet intellectually?The build makes it so you lose damage if you weapon swap, use utilities or use adrenaline skill.The thing it promotes is only hitting your target.So where does the intellectual part come in?

Shadowfist.2708:

So if I’m so godawful terrible as you all want to come in here and claim, why am I putting people like you to shame?

Easy answer. It’s not the build. It’s not the player. It’s the combination of the build, and how well the player utilizes it. Stop trying to say a build is bad because you’re bad. It makes you look really foolish.

Once again you put words in my mouth.I never ever said you’re a bad player.What I said is that the build sucks for dungeons, simple as that.And how exactly do you put me to shame really?
You have no idea if I’m a bad player.And the build is bad.Simple as that.

Ivanov.8914:

Unintelligible garbage

LOL… I think we’re pretty much done here. You are a silly person who lacks reading comprehension and you have my pity. Forgive me if I can’t take someone who doesn’t know how to use quotes seriously. Let’s take a short look at how silly your reply was.

I didn’t put words in your mouth, I pointed out how wrong the words you put out were. Stop and think before you spout dribble and this won’t happen so frequently/easily.

I never said individual>group, I said the exact opposite (do you even know how greater and less than signs work?)

I never said I run 5 signets, I run 4.

Oh, and you know that whole part where you mock me for not realizing 5 signets = 200 precision? Well guess what kiddo. One of those signets does +90 precision on top of the 40 per signet slotted from the trait. That means the actual max would be 290, if you count the trait WITH the signet. Since I run 4 signets, let me break this out for you. 40 + 40 = 80. 80 + 40 = 120. 120 + 40 = 160. 160 + 90 = 250. Hence why I said that I gain 250 precision. <—- (literally lolling here)

I love how you sit here calling it a sub par build over and over again as if you some how have proof of this. I know beyond a doubt, and regardless what some illiterate troll says, that this build owns everything it gets near. It’s okay though, keep ignoring it and crying about it… those of us who know what we’re doing will keep enjoying it. Pity you’ll never understand.

Ivanov, while the Deep Strike trait does indeed only give 40 precision, depending on your signet choice, those have stat benefits as well. Signet of Fury provides a bonus of 90 precision at level 80. 160+90 = … 250

You normally are not going to find super optimum elite players pugging, and most are going to be more familiar with what it took for them to do well solo then what skills will be better for them in a group. Even if they equip the skills you suggest, they won’t be familiar or used to using them in that setting, as it’s not something they normally do.

If you don’t like that sort of player, well, not sure what you were expecting from a pug oO. Most dungeons can be done just find with any array of players, as long as they don’t over-aggro, know how to dodge and kite, and for the most part just pay attention. Adapt to the situation, expecting picture perfect dungeon runs is a bit silly and unrealistic, especially from pugs.

Well, I don’t really expect pug groups to perform anywhere near perfect(even if there were such occasions).
I just wanted to share a point of view I have not only viewed but tested as well.
Now, I know equipping banner skill and using it’s buffs and positioning it for maximum party potency is not something that should be expected of a pug-er.
What I’d just like to see is a warrior just using FGJ.Even 5 signet with FGJ is way better than just 5 signet.It shows that the person really pull his own weight and learn how to master his class – to use skills he deems helpful
The very reason for such threads like this is to be informative.We’d like to share info on a build that just doesn’t belong in a certain part of the game.

But anyway, just have fun and that’s that.

Edit: for some reason the reply from Shadowfist was quite delayed, hence my lack of proper reply.
See, here’s the thing.I can’t take you seriously anymore.You have claimed certain things in your above posts, and when I ask you to put evidence for them, you ignore that and carry on your ramblings.
There are a few ways you can run a 5 signet build.Such as using for example might/stamina/dolyak.And since I don’t know which skills you take, or which skills any other person takes, I say the bonuses that come directly from the build.I guess a saving grace of yours is that you showed that you can properly count.Very good!

I have the right to write here as I do because I tried the build myself.The 5 signet build is the best leveling build as it is.
Oh and, calling me “kiddo” doesn’t really give you much credibility either.Neither does calling me a troll.But carry on.At least I know one more narrow-minded fool to avoid.

Ivanov.8914:

Koop.4602:

If you dont like what ppl spec then dont call out for pugs.
Who are any of you QQing about specs to tell other people what to use. Ive been in plenty of groups where warriors were not running 5 sigs but full tank and had the dps of a wet noodle. We didnt kick them or even say a word, we were happy to have a 4 or 5 member.

If you have nothing constructive to add to the topic, then don’t post at all.Do yourself a favor and read this thread from the start.Doing so will answer most/all your questions.

Why? He’s right. And it’s the same argument I’ve been saying from the start of this thread that everyone is completely ignoring.

Don’t like what randoms do? Don’t pug. Simple.

You don’t like breathing dirty air(due to cars and factories)?Don’t breathe.Simple.

This argument is simply flawed.If you encounter a problem, you don’t just leave it and turn the other way, you try to solve it.At least, most people would.

Ivanov.8914:

You don’t like breathing dirty air(due to cars and factories)?Don’t breathe.Simple.

This argument is simply flawed.If you encounter a problem, you don’t just leave it and turn the other way, you try to solve it.At least, most people would.

How is it flawed? Because I already presented you with a solution that would solve your problem entirely. You’re just refusing to acknowledge it.

And it’s more like:

You don’t like breathing dirty air? So don’t stick your face in front of the muffler of the car and don’t go near the factory.

You are the cause of your own problems. The solution as I said many times is to just avoid the situation entirely.

And for your analogy to fit I would have to have said “if you don’t like what randoms do, don’t do dungeons”.

There are a few solutions to this, not just one.One of them is what you said, other is what i say.

But let’s end it at that.I’m honestly too tired of wordplays right now
Night.

Ivanov.8914:

There are a few solutions to this, not just one.One of them is what you said, other is what i say.

But let’s end it at that.I’m honestly too tired of wordplays right now
Night.

The difference is my solution is not dictating to others what they can and cannot do in a game they have just as much right to play (and how they want to play) as you do.

Fellyn there’s not much point man. He’s one of those people that thinks his way is the only way and that if he can’t be good at it, surely no one else is. This whole thread is fail. I’ve never had an issue pugging with my build.

Don’t get me wrong, if you have someone underskilled running a signet build, they’re not providing support and they’re not helping control/decimate targets correctly. I can see that being a problem. I suspect that THIS is where most of the hate stems from. The thing is though, there are people that run signet builds very, very effectively. When that happens, you’ll be glad they’re in your group.

Ivanov.8914:

You can take your precious solution and shove it where the sun doesn’t shine.
Take a kittening hint when someone is trying to end a conversation, will you?

Why do you think you get to say “my way or the high way” and then when someone else contests what you have to say you think you get to end the conversation on your terms?

That’s not how it works. Sorry.

Shadowfist.2708:

Fellyn there’s not much point man. He’s one of those people that thinks his way is the only way and that if he can’t be good at it, surely no one else is. This whole thread is fail. I’ve never had an issue pugging with my build.

Don’t get me wrong, if you have someone underskilled running a signet build, they’re not providing support and they’re not helping control/decimate targets correctly. I can see that being a problem. I suspect that THIS is where most of the hate stems from. The thing is though, there are people that run signet builds very, very effectively. When that happens, you’ll be glad they’re in your group.

He lost the argument so he’s turning tale and running now. No one is ever going to convince me it’s okay to kick some one from a pug group based on their build alone before they’re even given a chance.

It’s worthwhile to mention as well that there can be absolutely terrible players using “good” builds. I’ve seen more of those than I care to think about. These ones fall into the elitist kitten category, too.

a 5 signits glasscannon warrior here, anyhow i do understand what you are saying, most of the signets do contribute very little to your team. personally, i usually just keep all 5 there because i dont like having to bother using the utility skills, however i will also switch them out instantly when i feel that the group i am with needs the extra help.

Ivanov.8914:

fellyn.5083:

Ivanov.8914:

You can take your precious solution and shove it where the sun doesn’t shine.
Take a kittening hint when someone is trying to end a conversation, will you?

Why do you think you get to say “my way or the high way” and then when someone else contests what you have to say you think you get to end the conversation on your terms?

That’s not how it works. Sorry.

Shadowfist.2708:

Fellyn there’s not much point man. He’s one of those people that thinks his way is the only way and that if he can’t be good at it, surely no one else is. This whole thread is fail. I’ve never had an issue pugging with my build.

Don’t get me wrong, if you have someone underskilled running a signet build, they’re not providing support and they’re not helping control/decimate targets correctly. I can see that being a problem. I suspect that THIS is where most of the hate stems from. The thing is though, there are people that run signet builds very, very effectively. When that happens, you’ll be glad they’re in your group.

He lost the argument so he’s turning tale and running now. No one is ever going to convince me it’s okay to kick some one from a pug group based on their build alone before they’re even given a chance.

It’s worthwhile to mention as well that there can be absolutely terrible players using “good” builds. I’ve seen more of those than I care to think about. These ones fall into the elitist kitten category, too.

I was tired writing to dim-witted trolls 2 am in the morning.I had no further desire than to go to sleep.So keep making assumptions on your own.
I keep asking you clowns to quote things to prove what you say, yet no such things happen.I asked Shadowfist to quote some stuff like nonsense and hypocrisy, no reply.
Now I ask you fellyn to quote when and how I lost the argument.If you can’t prove it(hell if I know how that will happen) then what both of you are doing is just pointless mouth gymnastics.

I didn’t end the conversation on my terms.Did you even have a proper conversation in your life to begin with?What I tried was to find a middle ground where both options are there and viable, yet you go on ahead like a little child to still stomp your foot and scream that yours’ is better.Really?

Both of you continue to derive things from what I said that aren’t there.Honestly, can you read properly, or are you that focused on looking like trolls? “OMG he’s not doing it that way, it totally means he’s doing it this other way!!” as if there aren’t many other options.Such misconceptions are…mature….

You lost the conversation when you tried to convince the <1% of game population who even visits this forum, that Signet Builds are useless in dungeons, and that you were doing the game a “favor” by doing this. I. e. when you set foot in this thread.

Just accept the fact that while Signet Builds may or may not be sub-par, they are NOT useless in dungeons. I have 500h logged on my warrior, 20p in Hobby Dungeon explorer, both full exotic tank / DPS set, and have tried any build you can imagine in dungeons.

The skill of the player will make 10x more difference in terms of damage and survivability than what utility skills you put on your bar. Accept this fact please.

What I wrote, and what you should have read, is me saying in over and over and over again that this build is bad in dungeons and is sub-par.

And what I did(at least what you put out) is not lose the convo, but present my point.The reason I posted here was to say exactly what you make out as my failing point.
So…one loses a conversation before it even began?Sounds logical.
What I see is a better way for things to happen.A way that promotes learning one’s class over using simple and selfish skills.What you’d naturally do is try to share and promote others into bettering themselves.That’s the whole idea of a community last time I checked.If you don’t like the fact that others have an opinion on what you do and use, then don’t play an MMO.
And, how does play hours make a difference?I’ve 600 hours, most of them just sitting afk.I don’t think saying that makes my points more valid tho.It’s silly.

This topic again eh? I see it is also filled with the same uninformed elitism as always too.

Let me splain something, if you will. The group dynamic, the team synergy, the performance of the group is what matters.

And there are many paths to reach a good team. One of them, is indeed, a signet build…

But oh yes, what about FGJ!? That is obviously better than what you blah signet blah blah. Sure it is, in a vacuum… but you are not in a vacuum, you are on a team! Suppose for a moment, that one of your team members can already provide all the aoe fury you could ever hope for? Well.. then FGJ isn’t really going to contribute as much as it would otherwise, since its fury is redundant and pointless. Still have a modest few might stack though… you say. Sure, yet again though, what if a couple of your party members are especially brilliant at handing out them some aoe might?

My point, if you haven’t picked up on it, is a full dps, focused on personal performance build… can very much have a role to play in a party. Especially if they know what they’re doing. They will ramp the speed of that dungeon run an uncanny degree. But the group dynamic has to be right for it to work.

I’m not going to say there are no bad builds, because you could get pretty clever with selecting the most ridiculous choices possible while traiting…. but it isn’t hard to come up with a good build, certainly. The tricky part is making sure your build works for the situation at hand, and that very much includes the build of your party, and the encounters you plan to face.

That is all, you can go back to your bickering about half truths and misunderstood concepts now.

Funny how the misunterstood things and half truths are just what you yourself explain.
The fury stacking can be done very well even when not specced as support, but for aoe fury not that much classes can keep it constant(with a moving party ofc).
Somehow there’sa misconception here that since I bash the 5 signet, I somehow promote full support builds.Never have I said nor mentioned something of the sort.
What I say is that there should be moderation.I myself contribute by 1 banner and FGJ, not more.
It’s rather confusing atm, coz the situations where you pug and where you make a guild run have mixed a bit, but w/e…
Just…don’t take advices no matter what the reasoning, and enjoy your fun single player.
P.S : good points laid nonetheless ravnodaus.Props for that.