Guild Wars 2

@Pestilence

What? Were you just standing still waiting for him to BS/HS you to death? Sure they hit hard but once you learn their mechanics thieves aren’t that hard to deal with.

Back to topic

JonPeters.5630:

I think the passive might need to come up in non-healing builds. If I run a clerics tactics build this signet can hold its weight, but it currently has NO place in a berserker build. Not sure it should be as viable in a seeker build, but it needs to see some play in soldiers, and certainly Valk and Shaman builds. Really signets are still going to have a hard time without a stun breaker (particularly in PvP and WvW). Obviously Dolyak signet is the most likely candidate here. Our next balance patch will absolutely be looking at stun breakers and spreading them out on all professions to make more categories of utilities viable. I’ll probably post this in general later as well but this was a larger balance pass and we will likely let this meta sit a bit longer than previous ones while we work towards taking time to push more less effective builds towards viable status.

Jon

I wonder if replacing 1 of the god awful passive traits in the tactics line with something that boosted the healing signet effects would be a better way to go? I think it would have a good synergy with a warrior bunker build. Would definitely be better than “fast healer” or “reviver’s might” which are kind of a joke.

JonPeters.5630:

I think the passive might need to come up in non-healing builds. If I run a clerics tactics build this signet can hold its weight, but it currently has NO place in a berserker build. Not sure it should be as viable in a seeker build, but it needs to see some play in soldiers, and certainly Valk and Shaman builds. Really signets are still going to have a hard time without a stun breaker (particularly in PvP and WvW). Obviously Dolyak signet is the most likely candidate here. Our next balance patch will absolutely be looking at stun breakers and spreading them out on all professions to make more categories of utilities viable. I’ll probably post this in general later as well but this was a larger balance pass and we will likely let this meta sit a bit longer than previous ones while we work towards taking time to push more less effective builds towards viable status.

Jon

Dolyak signet active: instant cast, stunbreak, protection.

Spiked Armour trait deep in the Defence tree could provide protection on top of, or instead of retaliation. In general, this trait could be much better since it’s a 30-point Defence Grandmaster trait (for most PvP builds, it’s too much of a sacrifice for too little gain).

Giving Warrior a limited access to protection without compromising a stunbreak, on top of buffing healing signet (which still scales very poorly with healing power) and reworking some traits sounds reasonable to me.

There is also another problem of often unreliable movement skills such as Rush, Leap or Bull’s Charge, which get slowed down to a crawl with cripple/chill or outright miss the target, or fail to execute the attack (Rush is most guilty of this, despite previous fixes).

Overall, I’d work down the list of most popular complaints before changing anything fundamental about Warrior gameplay.

PS. Destruction of the Empowered sucks.

Windwalker.2047:

QQ i have the most hp and armor in the game and now i want passive heals of a guardian.
Look it up its on par(and better) with every other passive out there-
Ele soothing mist-80hp/s
Guard virtue of resolve 84hp/s
Regeneration 130hp/s
OH noes i have the hp regen of an ele with perma regeneration,the warrior must be the weakest PvE class ever.

Play 100 tournament games as Warrior with a healing signet, then come back here. I heard it’s an enlightening trip comparable to reaching a state of Nirvana.

Also a song to lift up the mood - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv96yJYhk3M

Windwalker.2047:

QQ i have the most hp and armor in the game and now i want passive heals of a guardian.
Look it up its on par(and better) with every other passive out there-
Ele soothing mist-80hp/s
Guard virtue of resolve 84hp/s
Regeneration 130hp/s
OH noes i have the hp regen of an ele with perma regeneration,the warrior must be the weakest PvE class ever.

Now take your same math Ele + Regen + General Water heal abilities or Guard + Regen + Virtue of Resolve** +5% for armor, then multiply by Protection Boon, and then add a few hundred health/second for Aegis (if applicable). Compare to Healing Signet + Adrenaline Health +5% for armor. You have your answer; Warrior is way low; Warrior does have 7,600 baseline additional health but Protection/Blocks/Invulnerability alone is basically the difference. Now add Soothing Mist to Ele and/or Virtue of Resolve to Guardian and you see the core difference.

• with Absolute Resolution talent, even more skewed

Basically, because of Warrior Adrenaline Health, Healing Signet is weak because they appear to be currently balanced together as one ability.

Artaz.3819:

Basically, because of Warrior Adrenaline Health, Healing Signet is weak because they appear to be currently balanced together as one ability.

Which wouldn’t be so terribly bad if Fast Hands got moved back to 5 Discipline minor, and 5 Defence minor was Adrenal Health. I’m all for opening up more build diversity for Warriors … at least for as long as Rangers get absurd buffs like 50% endurance regen for 5 points in Wilderness Survival (something we have to sacrifice a whole utility skill for).

Julie Yann.5379:

I wonder if replacing 1 of the god awful passive traits in the tactics line with something that boosted the healing signet effects would be a better way to go? I think it would have a good synergy with a warrior bunker build. Would definitely be better than “fast healer” or “reviver’s might” which are kind of a joke.

Thank you! That’s exactly what I’m talking about. Adding traits that improve passive healing makes bunker building more viable. Just buffing the signet just pushes everyone closer to bunker and sacrificing nothing.

Comparatively, I think Ranger has some insane passive healing but they have to balance various factors to get the best out of it: pet usage, damage and personal safety.

Leo G.4501:

Julie Yann.5379:

I wonder if replacing 1 of the god awful passive traits in the tactics line with something that boosted the healing signet effects would be a better way to go? I think it would have a good synergy with a warrior bunker build. Would definitely be better than “fast healer” or “reviver’s might” which are kind of a joke.

Thank you! That’s exactly what I’m talking about. Adding traits that improve passive healing makes bunker building more viable. Just buffing the signet just pushes everyone closer to bunker and sacrificing nothing.

Comparatively, I think Ranger has some insane passive healing but they have to balance various factors to get the best out of it: pet usage, damage and personal safety.

Sb should post this in the suggestions, I think it would be very logical to replace the minor traits in tactics.

Julie Yann.5379:

@Pestilence

What? Were you just standing still waiting for him to BS/HS you to death? Sure they hit hard but once you learn their mechanics thieves aren’t that hard to deal with.

Back to topic

JonPeters.5630:

I think the passive might need to come up in non-healing builds. If I run a clerics tactics build this signet can hold its weight, but it currently has NO place in a berserker build. Not sure it should be as viable in a seeker build, but it needs to see some play in soldiers, and certainly Valk and Shaman builds. Really signets are still going to have a hard time without a stun breaker (particularly in PvP and WvW). Obviously Dolyak signet is the most likely candidate here. Our next balance patch will absolutely be looking at stun breakers and spreading them out on all professions to make more categories of utilities viable. I’ll probably post this in general later as well but this was a larger balance pass and we will likely let this meta sit a bit longer than previous ones while we work towards taking time to push more less effective builds towards viable status.

Jon

I wonder if replacing 1 of the god awful passive traits in the tactics line with something that boosted the healing signet effects would be a better way to go? I think it would have a good synergy with a warrior bunker build. Would definitely be better than “fast healer” or “reviver’s might” which are kind of a joke.

standing still??? hell no was fighting an ele at the same time but my point is simple i want my skills on say AXE to do the same dmg as a thief if thats the case, they have initiative we have adrenaline which we either sacrifice a utility slot for or activate a heal to get full. thief just spams buttons and gets the equivilent damage of a crit’d eviscerate… they then follow that up with instant spammable ludacris high hits from CnD or Heartseeker. I generally have no problems with thieves. My POINT is ook at how far apart the classes are in terms of BALANCE they out dmg us and they can survive better than us they dont have to trait full defence to do either 1 or the other.

sorry for taking it off topic its rare to see an ANET guy reply on the warrior section

Healing Signet alone is bad compared to the other heals, its base heal amount needs doubled, maybe something after that could be added to improve it even further since we don’t have access to protection. A developer coming here alone and telling us its trash just proves how useless the heal is at the moment.

Both Adrenaline Health and Healing Signet need upped to be on-par with the traits of other classes.

Adrenal Health should heal every time you gain a strike of adrenaline and be effected moreso by healing power, not over time. This makes the Warrior a bit harder to play while giving it viable self-healing.

Incidentally, while I doubt anyone cares about reviver’s might (why might? Who gets revived and thinks ‘gee, I need a stack of might right about now’?), I actually like fast healing (and determined revival). I pick up a lot of downed or even defeated people in PVE/dungeons/WvW and whether the enemy are players or AI they get really incensed by it. Making it go a little faster and me tougher for the duration does come in handy.

EDIT: also I find the idea of having a minor trait specifically work on healing signet alone a bit iffy. That just says if you don’t take that specific skill, not even sub-type of skills, you get no benefit from that at all. I mean when strength and arms do it fair enough, every warrior has a burst skill of some kind.

I’m amused that not only are we having Warrior’s complain about this, but Jon Peters discussing that it may need a buff in builds without any +healing in them … this is why:

Warrior’s Healing Signet versus Ranger’s Signet of the Wild … with the actual numbers … not what Daecollo made up.

Healing Signet

• 200 per second.
• +0.033 per 1 healing power

Signet of the Wild

• Ranger Healing 62 per second
• Ranger +0.06 per 1 healing power
• Pet Healing 125 per second
• Pet +0.25 per 1 healing power

So with 0 healing power, the warrior is getting 200 – 62 = 138 more health per second than the Ranger and 200 – (62+125) = 13 more health per second than both the Ranger and their pet combined.

Now, Signet of the Wild does scale better with healing power, but to make up the 138 health per second difference, 138 / 0.06 = 2,300 healing power is how much would need … which is rather ridiculous.

I do not believe that the fact that it also heals the pet, a decent percentage of Ranger damage/utility, should be cause for it to heal the Ranger for less. Especially not 2,300 worth of healing power less.

JonPeters.5630:

I think the passive might need to come up in non-healing builds. If I run a clerics tactics build this signet can hold its weight, but it currently has NO place in a berserker build. Not sure it should be as viable in a seeker build, but it needs to see some play in soldiers, and certainly Valk and Shaman builds. Really signets are still going to have a hard time without a stun breaker (particularly in PvP and WvW). Obviously Dolyak signet is the most likely candidate here. Our next balance patch will absolutely be looking at stun breakers and spreading them out on all professions to make more categories of utilities viable. I’ll probably post this in general later as well but this was a larger balance pass and we will likely let this meta sit a bit longer than previous ones while we work towards taking time to push more less effective builds towards viable status.

Jon

Can we also have a serious look at your elite and destruction of the empowered? Our elite is just regular buffs that can be obtained elsewhere, all classes has access to it and now even thieves can steal it from us using a regular weapon skill.

Here is a link describing our whines and woes about the changes:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/Warrior-post-patch/first#post1944508

We know you guys don’t have time for everything but since warriors are not in the majority of high end spvp we should have more screen time.

Sebrent.3625:

I’m amused that not only are we having Warrior’s complain about this, but Jon Peters discussing that it may need a buff in builds without any +healing in them … this is why:

Warrior’s Healing Signet versus Ranger’s Signet of the Wild … with the actual numbers … not what Daecollo made up.

Healing Signet

• 200 per second.
• +0.033 per 1 healing power

Signet of the Wild

• Ranger Healing 62 per second
• Ranger +0.06 per 1 healing power
• Pet Healing 125 per second
• Pet +0.25 per 1 healing power

So with 0 healing power, the warrior is getting 200 – 62 = 138 more health per second than the Ranger and 200 – (62+125) = 13 more health per second than both the Ranger and their pet combined.

Now, Signet of the Wild does scale better with healing power, but to make up the 138 health per second difference, 138 / 0.06 = 2,300 healing power is how much would need … which is rather ridiculous.

I do not believe that the fact that it also heals the pet, a decent percentage of Ranger damage/utility, should be cause for it to heal the Ranger for less. Especially not 2,300 worth of healing power less.

The Ranger’s Pet is a big part of it, so you need to take in account BOTH of them together.

One it a utility slot, while the other is a healing slot. The funny thing is though, the ranger one is just “a little worse.”

Just a little worse?! I need 2,300 healing power to get the same amount of health per second as you do with 0 healing power. That is not “just a little worse”.

To make it even simpler for you, 62 is only 31% of 200.

When a Ranger’s pet is dead, a large chunk of the Ranger’s dps is also dead. This is why Signet of Stone now gives the Ranger and their pet the same amount of toughness. They are essentially one entity in two bodies … and if you kill the primary body (the ranger) they both die. As such, it doesn’t make much sense to penalize the Ranger for this. They are already penalized in other ways for it.

Sebrent.3625:

Just a little worse?! I need 2,300 healing power to get the same amount of health per second as you do with 0 healing power. That is not “just a little worse”.

To make it even simpler for you, 62 is only 31% of 200.

When a Ranger’s pet is dead, a large chunk of the Ranger’s dps is also dead. This is why Signet of Stone now gives the Ranger and their pet the same amount of toughness. They are essentially one entity in two bodies … and if you kill the primary body (the ranger) they both die. As such, it doesn’t make much sense to penalize the Ranger for this. They are already penalized in other ways for it.

Actually if you combine them both together its 183 hp/s. The warrior relies on only himself. He doesn’t have a pet.

And a cleave/AOE, etc. that hits you for 1k hits the ranger for 1k and the pet for 1k … that’s 2k … 100% more.

You using extremely flawed logic Daecollo.

Additionally, if you just hit the Ranger for 1k and ignore the pet, only the 62 hp/sec is what matters. This is what happens in pvp as people know that a good Ranger can just swap out the pet before you finish it off.

Lets just ignore the fact they get much better healing abilities, way more condition removal, double the armor (DUE TO PROTECTION.) a lot of evasion abilities that ignore damage and a pet. Plus your heal is a utility…

More condition removal? Let’s look…

Ranger has

• Pet: Brown Bear’s F2
• Heal: Healing Spring
• Utility: Signet of Renewal
• Trait: Empathic Bond (gives it to our pet … not always a good thing)

Warrior has

• Heal: Mending
• Utility: Signet of Stamina
• Utility: Shake It Off!
• Weapon: Warhorn’s Charge (chill/cripple/immob)
• Trait: Shrug It Off
• Trait + Weapon: Quick Breathing + Warhorn (turns into boons)
• Trait: Mobile Strikes (chill/cripple/immob)

Also, it isn’t a HEAL, it’s a signet that provides hp/sec. Yours is providing you with more than 3x the healing the Ranger one is. If it also healed on its active, then you could talk.

Rangers can remove 3 conditions every 10 seconds, then switch out there pets, the conditions that go to there pets are immediately removed. (this is not an exploit, the pet is no longer there so the conditions are removed, the funny thing is the switching of pets is also 10 seconds, so they pretty much have 3 condition removals every 10s.)

The ranger’s healing spring produces a water combo field, which allows them and there allies to constantly cleanse conditions for 4 seconds.

Its sad that I know more about a ranger then an actual ranger.

If the signets are not a heal… why is it effected by healing power and its amount decreased by poison?

Sebrent.3625:

And a cleave/AOE, etc. that hits you for 1k hits the ranger for 1k and the pet for 1k … that’s 2k … 100% more.

You using extremely flawed logic Daecollo.

Additionally, if you just hit the Ranger for 1k and ignore the pet, only the 62 hp/sec is what matters. This is what happens in pvp as people know that a good Ranger can just swap out the pet before you finish it off.

There are several key differences between warrior and ranger regen builds: like Vigor/Protection access & uptime, the lack of evade on warrior weapons, and the fact that warrior regeneration is pretty much entirely bound up in banners which makes them so easily kitable.

But arguably the biggest reason ranger regen builds are on a totally different level than warrior regen builds is that Healing Signet is a healing skill while SotW is only a utility. If a warrior needs to use their healing skill they’ve just taken a huge chunk out of their passive healing for what is a thoroughly unimpressive healing skill. If a ranger needs to use their healing skill they can do so without losing ~25% of their passive regen to do so.

If Healing Signet was a utility skill it would see a whole hell of a lot more use; even if they changed the active.

Yes, a ranger can swap their pet to save it from conditions … in a vacuum where their pet hasn’t been swapped to save its life already, to remove the last batch of conditions, to use its utilities, or for quickness.

Just as the Warrior loses the passive when they use their heal, the Ranger loses their passive when they use their utility … which doesn’t even benefit them (just their pet) without investing 30 trait points and a grandmaster major trait.

You get two weapon sets and then five slots. A utility slot is one of those five slots just like a healing slot is. Slightly different in selection, but it’s one of the five.

No evasion on skills?

That’s because you’re not a ranger …. though you do have Whirlwind Attack.

You also have weapon sets that allow you to have an enormous number of stuns/dazes/blocks/blinds, etc..

The OP was complaining that 200 hp/sec is weak. This is silly seeing as it is more then 3x what Ranger’s get on theirs and we still make use of it despite needing 2300 healing power just to get it to heal as much as yours does with 0 healing power.

Anyone know how to get 2300 healing power? :-p

200 heal per sec is horrific at level 80, especially when our 30 sec cool down heal does nearly 300 heal per sec…

The recent patch unfortunately failed to address the 1 weakness of the class that continues to make us next to useless in SPvP and has in WvW since the omnomberry pie nerf: lack of legitimate sustainability in combat.

No im not talking about berserker’s or rifle builds, im talking about for knights and soldiers builds.

A ranger is not supposed to be designed for heavy mele combat like a guardian or a warrior is. Their superior ranged skills are designed to keep them away from having 3 or 4 people focusing high dps mele skills on them at once. A warrior does not have this option especially in wvw since we are primarily a heavy mele class.

The fact that guardians do it better is OK i suppose, but the fact that thieves, eles, and necros all of whom are supposed to be wearing medium / light armor can do it better than a warrior is down right a shame.

Honestly even in WvW it feels like the warrior class as a whole is missing… a Monk.

Sebrent.3625:

Just as the Warrior loses the passive when they use their heal, the Ranger loses their passive when they use their utility … which doesn’t even benefit them (just their pet) without investing 30 trait points and a grandmaster major trait.

You get two weapon sets and then five slots. A utility slot is one of those five slots just like a healing slot is. Slightly different in selection, but it’s one of the five.

The difference in opportunity costs and overall healing is massive. If you cannot accept that then I cannot help you.

Sebrent.3625:

No evasion on skills?

Now you’re just putting words in my mouth. I said “lack of evasion” as in “warrior weapons lack evasion in comparison with ranger weapons”.

Whirlwind Attack is very good, but it doesn’t even the playing field all that much. Especially since overall ranger evasiveness is so much better thanks to easy access to constant 50% endurance regeneration and Vigor.

Sebrent.3625:

That’s because you’re not a ranger …. though you do have Whirlwind Attack. You also have weapon sets that allow you to have an enormous number of stuns/dazes/blocks/blinds, etc..

Ah yes, the infamous Hammer/Mace & Shield/Longbow/Greatsword setup. How silly of me to forget.

Sebrent.3625:

The OP was complaining that 200 hp/sec is weak. This is silly seeing as it is more then 3x what Ranger’s get on theirs and we still make use of it despite needing 2300 healing power just to get it to heal as much as yours does with 0 healing power.

First off, I learned long ago to all but ignore Daecollo and I would heartily recommend doing the same.

But I don’t feel you’re being quite fair to SotW. At any level of healing power that a regen focused build is likely to have, say 1500+, it provides at least ~60% of Healing Signets regen value. That’s a far cry from Healing Signet being 300% more effective than SotW.

Who cares how effective they are at zero healing power? Those are edge cases. Anyone who gives a fig about SotWs regen passive WILL stack at least some healing power. And anyone who runs Healing Signet as their sole source of healing is either mad as a brush, totally incapable of comprehending the tooltips on the other warrior heals, or level 5.

That’s amusing because many Rangers would argue that Warriors have superior ranged skills with their Rifle.

That healing per second is assuming you are using your heal every time it is off cooldown. This is not the case.

Additionally, let’s look at warrior heals … heal / (cast + cooldown)

• 272 hps : Healing Surge w/ 3 Adrenaline: 8,440 / 31 = 272 … and fill adrenaline
• 221 hps : Healing Surge w/ 2 Adrenaline: 6,840 / 31 = 221 … and fill adrenaline
• 214 hps : Mending: 5,560 / 26 = 214 … and remove conditions
• 192 hps : Healing Signet w/ Trait: 3,320 / 17.25 = 192 … and 200 hps passive
• 190 hps : Healing Surge w/ 1 Adrenaline: 5,880 / 31 = 190 … and fill adrenaline
• 169 hps : Healing Surge w/ 0 Adrenaline: 5,240 / 31 = 169 … and fill adrenaline
• 156 hps : Healing Signet w/o Trait: 3,320 / 21.25 = 156 … and 200 hps passive

As you can see, Healing Signet with a single 10 point trait is a very good heal without its passive, beating out Healing Surge unless it is used with 2+ pips of adrenaline.

Do the math, then talk :-)

Sebrent.3625:

-snip-

The OP was complaining that 200 hp/sec is weak. This is silly seeing as it is more then 3x what Ranger’s get on theirs and we still make use of it despite needing 2300 healing power just to get it to heal as much as yours does with 0 healing power.

Anyone know how to get 2300 healing power? :-p

You’re complaining that a utility skill doesn’t seem to heal as well as a dedicated healing skill? Seriously? Have you really thought about that? Are you maybe forgetting that you have a dedicated healing skill slotted in addition to that “terrible” utility skill?

No worries, I’m well aware to ignore posts by that user. They allow us to see players’ post histories for a reason :-)

Warriors can gain 50% endurance regen with a utility (another signet, lol). Just a different way of getting it (different classes, go fig). There’s also vigor from an actual weapon skill.

Ranger has to again trait to get that vigor (on heal, on pet swap w/ birds or moas, on being crit). Again, different ways to get it for different classes.

Ranger’s massive amounts of evasion are tied to specific weapons. Just as warriors only have those blocks (MH mace, OH sword, shield), evasion (GSword), stuns/dazes/KDs (MH Mace, OH Mace, Hammer, Shield) on different weapons.

As far as who cares at 0 healing power? People who don’t use Celestial / Cleric / Apothecary / Magi gear.

As far as the differences at 1,500+ healing power…

1,500

• Healing Signet = 200 + (0.033 * 1,500) = 249.5
• Signet of the Wild 62 + (0.06 * 1,500) = 152
• Difference = 97.5 … SotW is 60.9% of HS

Sebrent.3625:

No worries, I’m well aware to ignore posts by that user. They allow us to see players’ post histories for a reason :-)

Warriors can gain 50% endurance regen with a utility (another signet, lol). Just a different way of getting it (different classes, go fig). There’s also vigor from an actual weapon skill.

Ranger has to again trait to get that vigor (on heal, on pet swap w/ birds or moas, on being crit). Again, different ways to get it for different classes.

Ranger’s massive amounts of evasion are tied to specific weapons. Just as warriors only have those blocks (MH mace, OH sword, shield), evasion (GSword), stuns/dazes/KDs (MH Mace, OH Mace, Hammer, Shield) on different weapons.

As far as who cares at 0 healing power? People who don’t use Celestial / Cleric / Apothecary / Magi gear.

As far as the differences at 1,500+ healing power…

1,500

• Healing Signet = 200 + (0.033 * 1,500) = 249.5
• Signet of the Wild 62 + (0.06 * 1,500) = 152
• Difference = 97.5 … SotW is 60.9% of HS

Your forgetting about the pet’s part of the heal.

OoooooOOoooo Fills our Adrenaline bar! i’d almost care if it wasn’t always full anyways!

Sebrent.3625:

Warriors can gain 50% endurance regen with a utility (another signet, lol). Just a different way of getting it (different classes, go fig). There’s also vigor from an actual weapon skill.
Ranger has to again trait to get that vigor (on heal, on pet swap w/ birds or moas, on being crit). Again, different ways to get it for different classes.

Ranger’s massive amounts of evasion are tied to specific weapons. Just as warriors only have those blocks (MH mace, OH sword, shield), evasion (GSword), stuns/dazes/KDs (MH Mace, OH Mace, Hammer, Shield) on different weapons.

Yes, yes, different classes are different. My point was more that the sum of the defensive options available to the ranger outstrips the warriors. Maybe not overpoweringly so, but the ranger certainly doesn’t have much cause to complain about Healing Signet of all things.

Spending 5 points in a tree for permanent 50% end regen is better than having to use a utility slot for the same 50% end regen that disappears for 48+ seconds if you use the active. Getting Vigor from an evade utility, swapping to certain kinds of pets, and from each tic of Healing Spring is better than having to use a mediocre weapon and a mediocre trait that requires yet another bloody utility slot. Getting access to Protection at all is heads and shoulders above not having a lick of it.

Warrior sustain is … not in a good place. It’s one of the primary complaints against the class. Given all of that, it seems silly to have sour grapes over Healing Signet.

As far as who cares at 0 healing power? People who don’t use Celestial / Cleric / Apothecary / Magi gear.

As I said, edge cases. The only sensible way to use HS is in conjunction with other passive healing methods which all but requires a significant investment into healing power and anyone who is going to care at all about the healing provided by SotW is likewise going to invest in healing power. There are some things that cannot be balanced for.

As far as the differences at 1,500+ healing power…

1,500

• Healing Signet = 200 + (0.033 * 1,500) = 249.5
• Signet of the Wild 62 + (0.06 * 1,500) = 152
• Difference = 97.5 … SotW is 60.9% of HS

Which is what I said.

Sebrent.3625:

That’s amusing because many Rangers would argue that Warriors have superior ranged skills with their Rifle.

That healing per second is assuming you are using your heal every time it is off cooldown. This is not the case.

Additionally, let’s look at warrior heals … heal / (cast + cooldown)

• 272 hps : Healing Surge w/ 3 Adrenaline: 8,440 / 31 = 272 … and fill adrenaline
• 221 hps : Healing Surge w/ 2 Adrenaline: 6,840 / 31 = 221 … and fill adrenaline
• 214 hps : Mending: 5,560 / 26 = 214 … and remove conditions
• 192 hps : Healing Signet w/ Trait: 3,320 / 17.25 = 192 … and 200 hps passive
• 190 hps : Healing Surge w/ 1 Adrenaline: 5,880 / 31 = 190 … and fill adrenaline
• 169 hps : Healing Surge w/ 0 Adrenaline: 5,240 / 31 = 169 … and fill adrenaline
• 156 hps : Healing Signet w/o Trait: 3,320 / 21.25 = 156 … and 200 hps passive

As you can see, Healing Signet with a single 10 point trait is a very good heal without its passive, beating out Healing Surge unless it is used with 2+ pips of adrenaline.

Do the math, then talk :-)

Thank you for this you sir,are a gentleman and a scholar.

Sebrent.3625:

That’s amusing because many Rangers would argue that Warriors have superior ranged skills with their Rifle.

That healing per second is assuming you are using your heal every time it is off cooldown. This is not the case.

Additionally, let’s look at warrior heals … heal / (cast + cooldown)

• 272 hps : Healing Surge w/ 3 Adrenaline: 8,440 / 31 = 272 … and fill adrenaline
• 221 hps : Healing Surge w/ 2 Adrenaline: 6,840 / 31 = 221 … and fill adrenaline
• 214 hps : Mending: 5,560 / 26 = 214 … and remove conditions
• 192 hps : Healing Signet w/ Trait: 3,320 / 17.25 = 192 … and 200 hps passive
• 190 hps : Healing Surge w/ 1 Adrenaline: 5,880 / 31 = 190 … and fill adrenaline
• 169 hps : Healing Surge w/ 0 Adrenaline: 5,240 / 31 = 169 … and fill adrenaline
• 156 hps : Healing Signet w/o Trait: 3,320 / 21.25 = 156 … and 200 hps passive

As you can see, Healing Signet with a single 10 point trait is a very good heal without its passive, beating out Healing Surge unless it is used with 2+ pips of adrenaline.

Do the math, then talk :-)

I don’t know of anybody that uses healing surge without 2 or 3 stacks of adrenaline unless it is to fill up their adrenaline for an attack burst. That being said, your highest Hps with the Healing Signet is the passive at 200 Hps which makes activating it a terrible heal since you lose that 200Hps a measly burst that offers 192 Hps.

LameFox.6349:

EDIT: also I find the idea of having a minor trait specifically work on healing signet alone a bit iffy. That just says if you don’t take that specific skill, not even sub-type of skills, you get no benefit from that at all. I mean when strength and arms do it fair enough, every warrior has a burst skill of some kind.

Well, it doesn’t have to be a trait just for a specific skill. It could be for multiple skills or in addition to other effects. Consider Elementalist trait Soothing Wave which affect the specific skills Frost Bow, Signet of Water and Mist/Vapor form which are three functionally dissimilar (although conceptually linked) utility skills.

Attic.1562:

Given all of that, it seems silly to have sour grapes over Healing Signet.

I agree. Granted, I could see healing signet baseline improved, mainly the active heal so non-heal non-sig mastery builds aren’t completely shafted by this, I also hardly see buffing the passive really helping Warrior sustain unless you buff it to ridiculous levels of regen (read: 2x more HP or higher). 400HPS isn’t going to keep you alive when a Thief is stabbing you in the back repeatedly. It’s not going to save you when a mesmer shatters all over you and you’re taking 800 or more damage every time you tap a skill or having both on you simultaneously. To fix that, you need something like blocks, evades, counters, CC, and so forth.

I say, buff how Healing sig scales with healing power, make it scale with toughness or vitality so it can’t be harmed by poison effects, put a trait in one of the defensive lines to make it more powerful, but don’t just buff it to make the class harder to kill as a base. Make bunker Warrior a viable build instead.

Leo G.4501:

but don’t just buff it to make the class harder to kill as a base. Make bunker Warrior a viable build instead.

I doubt they would be hard to kill when they have pressure on them. Bunkers aren’t hard to kill with the right utilities that are applied on them like poison and cc.

Remember this is a warrior and we have don’t have any passive condition removal traits or skills. So to shut them down is quite easy.

Sebrent.3625:

I’m amused that not only are we having Warrior’s complain about this, but Jon Peters discussing that it may need a buff in builds without any +healing in them … this is why:

Warrior’s Healing Signet versus Ranger’s Signet of the Wild … with the actual numbers … not what Daecollo made up.

Healing Signet

• 200 per second.
• +0.033 per 1 healing power

Signet of the Wild

• Ranger Healing 62 per second
• Ranger +0.06 per 1 healing power
• Pet Healing 125 per second
• Pet +0.25 per 1 healing power

So with 0 healing power, the warrior is getting 200 – 62 = 138 more health per second than the Ranger and 200 – (62+125) = 13 more health per second than both the Ranger and their pet combined.

Now, Signet of the Wild does scale better with healing power, but to make up the 138 health per second difference, 138 / 0.06 = 2,300 healing power is how much would need … which is rather ridiculous.

I do not believe that the fact that it also heals the pet, a decent percentage of Ranger damage/utility, should be cause for it to heal the Ranger for less. Especially not 2,300 worth of healing power less.

Everything you typed made irrelevant by this:

Healing Signet is a HEALING SKILL. Signet of the Wild is a UTILITY SKILL.

Gee, I wonder which should be healing for more?

Sebrent.3625:

That’s amusing because many Rangers would argue that Warriors have superior ranged skills with their Rifle.

That healing per second is assuming you are using your heal every time it is off cooldown. This is not the case.

Additionally, let’s look at warrior heals … heal / (cast + cooldown)

• 272 hps : Healing Surge w/ 3 Adrenaline: 8,440 / 31 = 272 … and fill adrenaline
• 221 hps : Healing Surge w/ 2 Adrenaline: 6,840 / 31 = 221 … and fill adrenaline
• 214 hps : Mending: 5,560 / 26 = 214 … and remove conditions
• 192 hps : Healing Signet w/ Trait: 3,320 / 17.25 = 192 … and 200 hps passive
• 190 hps : Healing Surge w/ 1 Adrenaline: 5,880 / 31 = 190 … and fill adrenaline
• 169 hps : Healing Surge w/ 0 Adrenaline: 5,240 / 31 = 169 … and fill adrenaline
• 156 hps : Healing Signet w/o Trait: 3,320 / 21.25 = 156 … and 200 hps passive

As you can see, Healing Signet with a single 10 point trait is a very good heal without its passive, beating out Healing Surge unless it is used with 2+ pips of adrenaline.

Do the math, then talk :-)

Yes the math is that HSignet heals for less than all the other heal skills even traited and has no useful side effect when actually activated. You aren’t very good at arguing this. Maybe you honestly think that the passive continues after using it?

Warriors will never be a bunker unless they get permanent or close to permanent protection. The inferior heals aren’t even a factor when you are taking 50% more damage.

Yaki.9563:

Everything you typed made irrelevant by this:

Healing Signet is a HEALING SKILL. Signet of the Wild is a UTILITY SKILL.

Gee, I wonder which should be healing for more?

But Healing Signet DOES heal more…which is the point because someone was implying Sig of the wild was almost as good.

Leo G.4501:

Yaki.9563:

Everything you typed made irrelevant by this:

Healing Signet is a HEALING SKILL. Signet of the Wild is a UTILITY SKILL.

Gee, I wonder which should be healing for more?

But Healing Signet DOES heal more…which is the point because someone was implying Sig of the wild was almost as good.

The only person I see who brought it up was the person I quoted. Any crappy healing skill will look good compared to the healing provided by a non-healing skill. Hey, lets compare it to the Guardian virtue and Elementalist trait! Oh it must be awesome, it heals for 2.5x as much!!!!!

Next thing you know you’ll be trying to compare a horrible elite skill with an autoattack in order to make it look good.

Yaki.9563:

The only person I see who brought it up was the person I quoted.

-Ahem-

Daecollo.9578:

If Healing Signet is too powerful in Open World, SPLIT IT:
Open World: Healing 200. (0.04*Healing Power.)
WvWvW: Healing 462. (0.1*Healing Power.)
Dungeons: Healing 462. (0.1*Healing Power.)
SPvP: Healing 462. (0.1*Healing Power.)

The sword thing is a cool idea, however it would probably have to be 2 stacks of bleeding.

One part of the game (and a very small one I might add.) should not be holding back the warrior in all other forms of the game.

Let us have a pathetic comparison!
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_the_Wild – 187 hp/s (0.31)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Signet – 200 hp/s (0.033)
One of these signets is NOT a healing skill and actual utility, guess which one?

Healing Signet is still going to suck even with a stun breaker, I can still use it and have stun breakers on my utility bar and it will still suck.

To end all this healing rate discussion just play a bunker healing build in pvp and tell us how far you go with it and then come back to the forums with results. I already gave mine because I play one and I can tell ya now a buff to our regen is what we need if we were to stick with the survivability utilities we have on warriors. If they can add Adrenal Health to the healing power formula as well then I am happy to say we got ourselves a decent bunker build. I’ve been condition down easily, burst down easily by glass cannon profs like mesmers, thieves and yes I use our condition removal skills, but it’s not enough.

• It being healing skill vs a utility skill would matter if we were comparing their actives
• That healing per second is only if you used it as soon as it came off cooldown … there are times it is ideal to use the active on your healing signet because you need a burst of healing
• Healing per second is NOT supposed to allow you to continue to take damage. It is meant to allow you to recover more quickly from taking damage. This recovery requires that you stop taking more damage
• @Daecollo: your post history is attrocious. Your “points” have already been covered. When players have to kill my Ranger pet before they kill my Ranger, then the regen my pet gets from the signet will matter.
• Warriors also have access to Adrenal Health
  • Adrenal Health gives you 125 / 240 / 360 health per second based on how much adrenaline you have.

With full adrenaline, adrenal health, and healing signet with zero healing power a warrior has 560 health per second. For a ranger to get this, they have to have a 30 points trait, a utility, regeneration, and large amount of healing power.

Heck, take a look, i made a spreadsheet for the Ranger community.

So a warrior has to take a specific heal, a 15 point trait, and have full adrenaline (which several warrior builds love to have and keep) with zero healing power in order to have more health per second than one of the most viable Ranger builds.

So why the heck are you guys complaining?

Why exactly is Jon Peters even talking about this but we’re not seeing the same for Signet of the Wild?

Sebrent.3625:

• Warriors also have access to Adrenal Health
  • Adrenal Health gives you 125 / 240 / 360 health per second based on how much adrenaline you have.

per 3 seconds….that’s 360 HP ever 3rd second.

Leo G.4501:

Sebrent.3625:

• Warriors also have access to Adrenal Health
  • Adrenal Health gives you 125 / 240 / 360 health per second based on how much adrenaline you have.

per 3 seconds….that’s 360 HP ever 3rd second.

125+240+360 / 3 = about 80.5 hp/s.

I wish I was getting 360 hp/s from adrenal health. I can dream though

Sebrent.3625:

Why exactly is Jon Peters even talking about this but we’re not seeing the same for Signet of the Wild?

He is aware how bad Healing Signet is compared to Rangers regen. I don’t think you realize that Signet of the Wild, Troll Unguent and just regular regen boon heals a lot better than warriors Banner regen, Adrenal Health and Healing Signet combine.
Bunker Ranger > Bunker warrior and can tank / evade more than a warrior which makes them more viable for Tpvp.

I can tell you are inexperienced with bunker warriors and their healing mechanics. You really need to test them out first before comparing orange and apples.

Our Toughness 5 point trait should be +50% Endurance.

Signet of Stamina should be 200 hp/s.
Healing Signet should heal you for each strike of adrenaline you get.

Deep Strikes needs changed to not be useless at high levels and OPOPLOL at low levels.

Brutalistik.6473:

He is aware how bad Healing Signet is compared to Rangers regen. I don’t think you realize that Signet of the Wild, Troll Unguent and just regular regen boon heals a lot better than warriors Banner regen, Adrenal Health and Healing Signet combine.
Bunker Ranger > Bunker warrior and can tank / evade more than a warrior which makes them more viable for Tpvp.

Let’s not be coy here, a Ranger’s healing is one of its strong suits primarily because it has a pet. Skills like Heal as One, Troll Unguent and Healing Spring are as good as they are because they often have to pull double duty keeping the pet alive, keeping the ranger alive, both at the same time or individually. Because their utility and damage is split, and because they aren’t always free to swap pets (not to mention the plethora of drawbacks that discourage swapping or giving pets new orders), it’s important to be able to keep the pet alive.

A flat comparison isn’t fair same as it wouldn’t be fair comparing the ranger’s damage to a warrior without the pet.

I actually think ranger’s without a pet out damage warriors in pvp due to there attacks being a lot more mobile and far easier to hit with.

Leo G.4501:

Brutalistik.6473:

He is aware how bad Healing Signet is compared to Rangers regen. I don’t think you realize that Signet of the Wild, Troll Unguent and just regular regen boon heals a lot better than warriors Banner regen, Adrenal Health and Healing Signet combine.
Bunker Ranger > Bunker warrior and can tank / evade more than a warrior which makes them more viable for Tpvp.

Let’s not be coy here, a Ranger’s healing is one of its strong suits primarily because it has a pet. Skills like Heal as One, Troll Unguent and Healing Spring are as good as they are because they often have to pull double duty keeping the pet alive, keeping the ranger alive, both at the same time or individually. Because their utility and damage is split, and because they aren’t always free to swap pets (not to mention the plethora of drawbacks that discourage swapping or giving pets new orders), it’s important to be able to keep the pet alive.

A flat comparison isn’t fair same as it wouldn’t be fair comparing the ranger’s damage to a warrior without the pet.

You do not think warriors suffer the same in damage lost? As I said before you guys keep talking instead of experimenting. I’ve already done the gameplay on bunker healing warrior and know its flaws. To be honest I rather play a ranger bunker than warrior due to the survivability and the pressure I can put on my enemies. If bunker warriors were viable and okay then I would not be supporting threads like these.

Daecollo.9578:

I actually think ranger’s without a pet out damage warriors in pvp due to there attacks being a lot more mobile and far easier to hit with.

They are not aware of that because they do not do regular hotjoins or Tpvp on a bunker healing warrior. They just do not want to see a warrior become competitive / gain buffs.

Brutalistik.6473:

They just do not want to see a warrior become competitive / gain buffs.

..did…did you not read my other posts in the thread or something?

Leo G.4501:

Brutalistik.6473:

They just do not want to see a warrior become competitive / gain buffs.

..did…did you not read my other posts in the thread or something?

Leo G, you said before that Adrenal Health healed for 360 hp/s… I mean its obvious you don’t even play a warrior. I know you like ranger and they are very good, but rangers are in a VERY good place atm, please go back to the ranger forum.

None of my threads have anything to do with nerfing rangers, I just wanna buff warriors to be on-par with rangers.