Healing Signet still worthless.

Healing Signet still worthless.

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Posted by: Olba.5376

Olba.5376

Passive:
Healing received on skill activation, heals intensify the closer to death you are.
100%-70%: 20 + (2 * Level) + (0.2 * Healing Power)
70%-33%: 30 + (3 * Level) + (0.33 * Healing Power)
33%-0%: 50 + (4 * Level) + (0.45 * Healing Power)
(Numbers can be adjusted, don’t freak out!)

Active:
2,220 (1.0) (not 0.5, 1.0 like it actually SAYS.)
Cooldown: 15s
Instant Cast
Breaks Stun

Less healing then the current active, but lower cool-down with a better passive effect and a stun break, so you use it when you need it but you lose powerful sustain.

Mmm… I don’t know.

It looks like something that you would pretty much only use in PvP, what with the apparent point of sacrificing a strong heal for a frequent stun break.

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Posted by: Sebrent.3625

Sebrent.3625

I don’t think the warrior needs any more stunbreaks.

You have Balanced Stance and it provides stability.
You have a passive that gives balanced stance when you’re CC’d.
You have shake it off.
You have Dolyak Signet providing another source of stability.

Christian. Husband. Father. Friend. Developer. Gamer.
Try your best to not make mistakes, but, when you do make mistakes, learn from them.
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Posted by: Leo G.4501

Leo G.4501

That’s way too strong. It works out to ~496HPS with 0 healing power if you take the signet cooldown trait. That’s almost twice the healing of healing surge at full adrenalin.

Could be right, although this is also on a skill that doesn’t refill adrenaline or have any other effects. Could lower the active to about equal Healing Surge then. Such a skill would have the comparative drawbacks of needing 10sec for the same effect and scaling much worse than other active heals.

I’d actually suggest a new trait that allows you to maintain the passive effect of signets after they are activated (Eles have that as an Earth Grandmaster trait). That would yield about ~390 HPS w- no healing power and ~500 HPS w- 2,000 healing power. Compare that to Healing Surge with Full Adrenalin with no trait investment at ~272 HPS with 0 Healing Power and ~337 with 2000 Healing Power.

That comes with a whole other set of balance issues. You can’t compare Elementalist signets and traits to Warrior’s. For instance a condition removed every 10 sec/3sec chill vs a full cleanse/33% Endurance regen…they are not equivalent.

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Posted by: Daecollo.9578

Daecollo.9578

Passive:
Healing received on skill activation, heals intensify the closer to death you are.
100%-70%: 20 + (2 * Level) + (0.2 * Healing Power)
70%-33%: 30 + (3 * Level) + (0.33 * Healing Power)
33%-0%: 50 + (4 * Level) + (0.45 * Healing Power)
(Numbers can be adjusted, don’t freak out!)

Active:
2,220 (1.0) (not 0.5, 1.0 like it actually SAYS.)
Cooldown: 15s
Instant Cast
Breaks Stun

Less healing then the current active, but lower cool-down with a better passive effect and a stun break, so you use it when you need it but you lose powerful sustain.

Mmm… I don’t know.

It looks like something that you would pretty much only use in PvP, what with the apparent point of sacrificing a strong heal for a frequent stun break.

We need PVP buffs.

Also, the elementalist one procs off traits/sigils and runes and other effects, it has a higher opportunity cost, also they have 2x less hp with almost constant protection and condition removal. You must balance it out assuming the Warrior almost always has poison (which I do in pvp and pve… lol.) Warriors also have 8k more HP with no way to get it back during the fight as well.

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Posted by: Sebrent.3625

Sebrent.3625

If you’re balancing it around “the elementalist has almost constant protection” and “the warrior almost always has poison”, then you’re completely lost sight of what balance is.

(1) An elementalist that has almost constant protection has to do the following

  • Use 30 traits points, all six armor runes, and their food buff to get +90% boon duration
  • Constantly change attunements in/out of earth

(2) Protection can be stripped/converted/stolen

(3) Warriors don’t always have poison on them and this is what condition removal is for.

Christian. Husband. Father. Friend. Developer. Gamer.
Try your best to not make mistakes, but, when you do make mistakes, learn from them.
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Posted by: Leo G.4501

Leo G.4501

Well it’s about as idiotic (not really, it’s not hard to get rid of poison) as assuming an elementalist will have permanent protection.

Perhaps you’re not holding yourself up to your own imaginary scenarios. Try outlining what an elementalist must do to get constant protection. Go ahead, we’ll wait.

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Posted by: Daecollo.9578

Daecollo.9578

Well it’s about as idiotic (not really, it’s not hard to get rid of poison) as assuming an elementalist will have permanent protection.

Perhaps you’re not holding yourself up to your own imaginary scenarios. Try outlining what an elementalist must do to get constant protection. Go ahead, we’ll wait.

I play a thief/necromancer/warrior, I play a spec that can apply poison every 2 seconds for 3 seconds on both of my thief/necro, Warriors have shouts with Long cooldowns they have to waste rune slots for and mending, these are NOT good condition removals.

I’m ending it here, it seems all your doing is reporting me. So I will just remove all my facts and keep it at this.

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(edited by Daecollo.9578)

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Posted by: Leo G.4501

Leo G.4501

I haven’t reported anyone.

The idea is, you remove the poison just before you heal…

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Posted by: Sebrent.3625

Sebrent.3625

I haven’t reported you either and it wouldn’t do anything anyways as you have not breached the code of conduct on this thread (at least not to my knowledge).

That poison that you can do with your thief/necro affects all other classes’ healing the same way they do the Warrior. That is why it is incorrect to assume your warrior will always be poisoned and others won’t when trying to balance heals.

Christian. Husband. Father. Friend. Developer. Gamer.
Try your best to not make mistakes, but, when you do make mistakes, learn from them.
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Posted by: Maliss.1248

Maliss.1248

@ Leo G

Could be right, although this is also on a skill that doesn’t refill adrenaline or have any other effects. Could lower the active to about equal Healing Surge then. Such a skill would have the comparative drawbacks of needing 10sec for the same effect and scaling much worse than other active heals.

It is providing passive healing until you activate it which is it’s other effect. As for scaling .05 x10 heals every 17.25 seconds works out to .029 HPS Healing Surge is .032 HPS very similar numbers differing only by ~3 HPS for every 1000 Healing power.

Personally I rather see warriors get a healing option that scales fairly well with healing power so that it opens up more build options rather than just give everyone in zerker armor a great heal.

That comes with a whole other set of balance issues. You can’t compare Elementalist signets and traits to Warrior’s. For instance a condition removed every 10 sec/3sec chill vs a full cleanse/33% Endurance regen…they are not equivalent.

I never attempted to compare Elementalist traits and signets with the Warrior counterparts, I just pointed out that Arenanet has already implemented maintaining the passive effect of signets after activating it for one profession already.

Signet heavy builds for warriors are frowned upon in most formats (WvW, sPvP, PvE) if a Healing Signet fix can provide some love for all signets and signet builds thus diversifying build options I think that’s a good thing for both the class and the game.

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Posted by: Spifnar.4712

Spifnar.4712

I don’t see why this is so complicated. Warriors signet scales like crap with healing power.

The elem is 200 per cast (scales at .1) and ~3200 active.

Warrior is 200 per sec (scales at .033) and ~3200 active.

Something is not right here. Yes, the classes are different. But why would the base 200 be the same, the active be the same, but scaling with heal power be different?

That’s like saying regen on a warrior should heal for 125 per sec, but scale worse than other classes with healing power

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Posted by: Daecollo.9578

Daecollo.9578

I don’t see why this is so complicated. Warriors signet scales like crap with healing power.

The elem is 200 per cast (scales at .1) and ~3200 active.

Warrior is 200 per sec (scales at .033) and ~3200 active.

Something is not right here. Yes, the classes are different. But why would the base 200 be the same, the active be the same, but scaling with heal power be different?

That’s like saying regen on a warrior should heal for 125 per sec, but scale worse than other classes with healing power

The Elemental one can proc three times more as well.

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Posted by: Deniara Devious.3948

Deniara Devious.3948

Personally I rather see warriors get a healing option that scales fairly well with healing power so that it opens up more build options rather than just give everyone in zerker armor a great heal.

Exactly!

If you go full zerker, don’t expect great healing either, you are a glass cannon. But those who invest in healing power should be rewarded better than they do now.

Deniara / Ayna – I want the original WvWvW maps back – Desolation [EU]

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Posted by: Daecollo.9578

Daecollo.9578

Personally I rather see warriors get a healing option that scales fairly well with healing power so that it opens up more build options rather than just give everyone in zerker armor a great heal.

Exactly!

If you go full zerker, don’t expect great healing either, you are a glass cannon. But those who invest in healing power should be rewarded better than they do now.

What about those who invest in Soldier or Sentinel gear, they arn’t allowed good healing either? How about you improve the Passive Significantly and the healing slightly so ALL gear gets a chance to shine?

I don’t want forced into Shout Warrior Builds more then I already am. Don’t tell me I don’t know.

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Posted by: Brutalistik.6473

Brutalistik.6473

Things you have to deal with when playing as a healing bunker warrior. This is minor, but I get those comments a lot in Spvp or Tpvp all because I am trying to survive and bunker a node against two or 3. A engineer, elementalist, ranger, guardian and necro does it easy with no problem, but for a thief / mesmer with the support of being evasive or immunity is superb. For a warrior it’s hell lols

Attachments:

Pineapples

(edited by Brutalistik.6473)

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Posted by: Maliss.1248

Maliss.1248

Personally I rather see warriors get a healing option that scales fairly well with healing power so that it opens up more build options rather than just give everyone in zerker armor a great heal.

Exactly!

If you go full zerker, don’t expect great healing either, you are a glass cannon. But those who invest in healing power should be rewarded better than they do now.

What about those who invest in Soldier or Sentinel gear, they arn’t allowed good healing either? How about you improve the Passive Significantly and the healing slightly so ALL gear gets a chance to shine?

I don’t want forced into Shout Warrior Builds more then I already am. Don’t tell me I don’t know.

No. Neither are they allowed the condition damage of someone who gears for it or the burst damage of someone who gears for it. Sentinel and Soldier gear has it’s own niche which is surviving a spike better than any other set of gear. Cleric’s gear (or any other variant focusing on Healing Power) on the other hand should be better at sustaining in long drawn out fights.

When looking at investing in healing gear you want to evaluate for the break even point where Healing begins to surpass Vitality. So if you look at warriors, Mending is the best scaling Heal in terms of HPS (1/26) at ~.04. Shouts scale about the same .8/20 to .8/30 for values between .027 and .04. So you get roughly .16 HPS for every point of Healing Power if you run Mending and a 3 shout build. Since 1 vitality = 10 Health and 1 Healing Power equates to ~.16 HPS it takes just over 60 (10/.16) seconds for healing power to outperform vitality.

When I ran these numbers for the typical D/D Ele bunker (30 water 30 arcane) pre nerf I came up with .55 HPS per point of healing. Meaning that the typical Ele bunker was ~3.5 times more effective at converting Healing Power to heals than a shout warrior. To put it another way an Elementalist has to last 18 seconds for Healing Power to start paying dividends (over Vitality) a Warrior needs to last over 60 seconds to see that same benefit.

Note on these numbers it’s ballpark math. The warrior build is not optimized for max healing, since their isn’t a standard warrior bunker build that I know of, (you could run things like dogged march or dwayna runes to add regen into the mix for the warrior which would boost the HPS somewhat). Also this only looks at scaling difference and doesn’t even attempt to compare the base line heals of Elementalist vs Warrior.

If you look at bunker builds like Guardian or Elementalist you’ll see that they have several ways of healing and avoiding damage. It’s when they stack these abilities from traits, utilities, weapons and gear that a bunker is made. Asking to turn Healing Signet by itself into the only thing a bunker warrior needs would break the class and the game.

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Posted by: Sebrent.3625

Sebrent.3625

I think the elementalist’s higher hps is due to their innately lower toughness.
However, this isn’t to say the numbers don’t need to be tweaked. Light Armor only has 14% less damage mitigation (base) than heavy armor. I’m not sure that warrants getting 3 times the healing coefficient.

Christian. Husband. Father. Friend. Developer. Gamer.
Try your best to not make mistakes, but, when you do make mistakes, learn from them.
Better yourself.

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Posted by: Deniara Devious.3948

Deniara Devious.3948

Personally I rather see warriors get a healing option that scales fairly well with healing power so that it opens up more build options rather than just give everyone in zerker armor a great heal.

Exactly!

If you go full zerker, don’t expect great healing either, you are a glass cannon. But those who invest in healing power should be rewarded better than they do now.

What about those who invest in Soldier or Sentinel gear, they arn’t allowed good healing either? How about you improve the Passive Significantly and the healing slightly so ALL gear gets a chance to shine?

I don’t want forced into Shout Warrior Builds more then I already am. Don’t tell me I don’t know.

I have already suggested many months ago that healing power should have more effect for any profession besides guardian (which currently benefits the most from healing power e.g. via altruistic healing).

In other words: I am all for tiny bit reducing the base effectiveness of most healing skills for almost any profession, while increasing the healing power multiplier. So I am suggesting the same treatment also for mesmers, engineers etc. not just for warrior.

Healing signet scales horribly bad with healing power and that should be changed. But if you don’t invest any points in healing power, I think healing signet shouldn’t become significantly better. Small buff is okay.

Currently most player invest into power, precision, critical damage, vitality and toughness, because those attributes bring the best bang for the buck. The importance of healing power should be enhanced, not made into useless waste of points like it is now, so that all warriors, mesmers, thieves, engineers etc. can still happily just spend all their points in other attributes besides healing power and those poor individuals who wasted points to healing power get almost nothing in return.

Those traits which give regeneration alike effects e.g. adrenal health for warrior, should also scale with healing power.

And healing signet’s activation time should be reduced (over 1 second is just too much). I also suggested that activating the signet would remove a condition (another person who suggested it should be a stun break is also a great idea, but let’s not give too many abilities into one skill).

Why so many people are against my suggestion? I am presenting a balanced way to give more sustainability for warrior.

Giving too much power, aka “more for meh” mentality, is bad. If you want high sustainability you should sacrifice part of your damage output and burst for that e.g. if you go full bunker as an engineer or play an immortal build mesmer or healway guardian, your damage output and burst are gonna be pathetic, but you will be difficult to kill.

I repeat: I do not want to force warriors into shout builds. If healing signet would also cleanse a condition or act as a stun break warriors would have less reasons to take “shake it off” (currently my warrior uses shake it off for those reasons). So more variety to the builds.

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Posted by: Maliss.1248

Maliss.1248

Healing signet scales horribly bad with healing power and that should be changed. But if you don’t invest any points in healing power, I think healing signet shouldn’t become significantly better. Small buff is okay.

Healing signet scaling falls into the norm for other #6 heals scaling wise. The passive is .033 HPS where as Healing Surge is .032 HPS. The active portion of Healing Signet when traited for 20% cool down reduction is .029 HPS. Compare that to Guardians Shelter which is .022 or Signet of Resolve which is .03.

I have already suggested many months ago that healing power should have more effect for any profession besides guardian (which currently benefits the most from healing power e.g. via altruistic healing).

Altruistic Healing (AH) scales very poorly with Healing Power .01 per boon applied the max healing power possible is roughly 2000 meaning that with max healing power Altruistic Healing is healing for 20 more health per application on top of it’s base 69 for a total of 89 Health per boon applied. Which is roughly a 29% increase from Healing Power. At the end of the day you are much better off trying to apply more boons than trying to boost Healing Power in an AH build which is why most of them don’t run cleric’s gear. As a point of comparison Warrior Shouts in a max healing build will increase by 134% (1192 + 1600) compared to AH’s 29% increase using the same Healing Power setup.

Should note I much prefer to talk about healing in terms of HPS but AH builds present a problem in that there are numerous variables to account for primarily dealing with the numbers of boons you expect to apply in a given time frame and the number of people you plan to apply them to.

I don’t think the actual scaling values are the problem but the lack of options for classes to stack heals from multiple sources like Guardians and Elementalists can. Scaling Adrenal Health is one good option for warriors. A trait that would allow you to convert adrenalin gained or spent to health would be another good option for Warrior healing and encourge the use of F1 skills. A trait that would allow you to use signets and keep their passive effect would be another and it would make signet builds more viable.

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Posted by: Leo G.4501

Leo G.4501

A trait that would allow you to use signets and keep their passive effect would be another and it would make signet builds more viable.

I didn’t follow up on this last comment mainly because I didn’t feel like it but partly because it’s just obvious. Warrior Signets aren’t balanced to keep their passive effects always.

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Posted by: Deniara Devious.3948

Deniara Devious.3948

Healing signet scaling falls into the norm for other #6 heals scaling wise. The passive is .033 HPS where as Healing Surge is .032 HPS. The active portion of Healing Signet when traited for 20% cool down reduction is .029 HPS. Compare that to Guardians Shelter which is .022 or Signet of Resolve which is .03.

Altruistic Healing (AH) scales very poorly with Healing Power .01 per boon applied the max healing power possible is roughly 2000 meaning that with max healing power Altruistic Healing is healing for 20 more health per application on top of it’s base 69 for a total of 89 Health per boon applied. Which is roughly a 29% increase from Healing Power. At the end of the day you are much better off trying to apply more boons than trying to boost Healing Power in an AH build which is why most of them don’t run cleric’s gear.

A trait that would allow you to convert adrenalin gained or spent to health would be another good option for Warrior healing and encourge the use of F1 skills. A trait that would allow you to use signets and keep their passive effect would be another and it would make signet builds more viable.

My bad AH really scales badly with healing power. But some weapon skills like staff’s empower can theoretically heal even over 4000 points with AH. So the probably balanced it correct not to make it too powerful. For comparison engineer’s elixir infused bomb grandmaster trait scales much better, but it only works with bombs and each bomb can trigger is only once, while AH can be triggered up to 60 times with one use of empower.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Altruistic_Healing
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elixir-Infused_Bombs

I think the reason why many Guardian skills so badly with healing skill and generally heal less than the healing skills of other professions are the following:
- guardian has easy access to aegis + protection (= big damage mitigation, often better than having high armor)
- lots of blocking skills (more than any other profession has)
- virtue of resolve provides small passive healing and its active effects serves as an extra heal without the need of allocating an utility slot
- many guardian weapon skills heal

All these together usually give guardian better sustainability and survivability than warriors do despite guardians have lower base hit points. Signet of resolve has long cooldown probably because its passive effect removing conditions every 10 s is indeed very useful. Overall I think guardian is one of the best balanced professions and it shouldn’t be altered too much (note, I don’t play my guardian that often). I heard Anet is going to fix the attack rate/animation speed of guardian’s scepter #1, so that problem will soon get fixed as well.

I think rethinking adrenaline would be good for the warrior profession. Now most professions just keep their adre full all matches as the adre burst skill of the most overused warriors weapon, greatsword, is so weak. There are a few good adre kills though e.g. earthshaker (hammer), kill shot (rifle), eviscerate (axe) and combustive shot (longbow). For greatsword users there is simply too many benefits of keeping your adre full all the time: berseker’s power + adrenal healing.

That is why I am for rethinking the greatsword: swap arcing slice with 100blades. 100 Blades becomes the burst and arcing slice will now also remove one boon. This would slightly reduce greatsword dps as the adre burst cannot be used every 8 seconds like 100 blades can, but the boon removal every 8 seconds would be useful and the forceful greatsword trait is a bit too good to be true, that’s why many people would still be using greatsword. A bit less bursts, but this the boon removal without the use of Destruction of the Empowered would give warrior’s an edge they need without sacrificing 30 points into (otherwise underpowered) discipline tree. Greatsword warriors could now peel off boons from enemy bunkers and warriors might become a bit more viable in pvp.

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Posted by: Daecollo.9578

Daecollo.9578

Except those traits ARE NOT ‘6’ Healing Abilities, but heal for MORE then Healing Signet and scale about the same.

However scaling should NOT be the all time awnser, it should scale well, but not make or break an ability.

It should be like AH where it does gain a boost, but not lock us to where we currently
are forced into 30 vitality for every viable build.

Healing Signet needs to have a way to proc it multiple times like the other signets and other trait abilities, it needs a better potential.

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(edited by Daecollo.9578)

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Posted by: Koppartikus.2396

Koppartikus.2396

I think the passive might need to come up in non-healing builds. If I run a clerics tactics build this signet can hold its weight, but it currently has NO place in a berserker build. Not sure it should be as viable in a seeker build, but it needs to see some play in soldiers, and certainly Valk and Shaman builds. Really signets are still going to have a hard time without a stun breaker (particularly in PvP and WvW). Obviously Dolyak signet is the most likely candidate here. Our next balance patch will absolutely be looking at stun breakers and spreading them out on all professions to make more categories of utilities viable. I’ll probably post this in general later as well but this was a larger balance pass and we will likely let this meta sit a bit longer than previous ones while we work towards taking time to push more less effective builds towards viable status.

Jon

Jon,

Thanks for your input, it’s good to hear that the signet is going to get a closer look by your team.

However, I respectfully disagree with your sentiments on what a player needs to do in order to make the signet effective in a build. I’ve leveraged the signet in a variety of builds and found that the signet tends to do well under the following conditions:

- Attached to a durable build
- Stacking other sources of health regeneration
- Signet trait synergy (optional)

Interestingly enough, Cleric’s gear is actually one of the worst ways to try to leverage the signet because the amount of healing per second you get from it is so small (at 1200 healing power you’re getting just under 40 HPS) that it’s not worth the stat contribution if you’re looking at the signet by itself. Mango Pies offer more than double this value on top of some vitality, and are easy to obtain. Stacking Adrenal Health on top of this allows a warrior to get a solid amount of HPS without any investment in healing power. In fact, warrior sustainability in its current state actually discourages the use of cleric’s gear due to the mechanics behind it.

One of the positives about this signet is that with Signet Mastery the cooldown is reduced to 16 seconds, which could offer a lot of interesting build options with runes/traits that proc via heal activation, but this works against the goal of the signet: delaying the use of the signet as long as possible so as to exploit it for its passive.

I feel that this signet gets little use past the initial leveling phases in part due to the way people build their warriors (where healing over time isn’t an effective form of healing for glass cannon or offensively focused builds) and the ways in which the signet conflicts with itself in its design (short CD, lackluster active, effectively non-scaling passive and poor scaling active). It has very specific niche uses at level 80 but in order to see more widespread use we need to see some tweaks in the signet itself and/or some additional trait support (the Elementalist trait where the passive still persist after the signet is activated would help out the signet immensely, as an example).

I purposely shied away from discussing Tactics traits that provide healing through shouts and banners because I don’t believe Healing Signet should be linked with them – of course if you run either trait it can help prop up Healing Signet, but the same can be said about Mending and Healing Surge, and I’m sure one could argue that the additional healing power actually helps out the other two skills more than it does Healing Signet.

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Posted by: Daecollo.9578

Daecollo.9578

We could instead make “Mending” a Physical skill and work with that grandmaster trait.

100% more healing, 20% CD reduction.

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Posted by: Artaz.3819

Artaz.3819

I don’t think the warrior needs any more stunbreaks.

You have Balanced Stance and it provides stability.
You have a passive that gives balanced stance when you’re CC’d.
You have shake it off.
You have Dolyak Signet providing another source of stability.

Dolyak Signet is not a stun break (at least not yet); it prevents it with Stability Boon (if it does not get stripped) once activated. The Defense Trait Last Stand has an internal 90-second cooldown AND goes off on any (.5s) push or a 3s Fear without your control. That leaves Balanced Stance and Shake It Off from your list…you left off Frenzy and Endure Pain.

From a tPvP meta-standpoint, stun breaks are really quite low on quite a few classes (including Warriors). Arguably, the classes that are focused on melee should also have the largest range of counters to them (just like movement impairing conditions issues).

Stun break is definitely useful in PvE under several open-world and several more dungeon boss mechanics.

(edited by Artaz.3819)

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Posted by: Daecollo.9578

Daecollo.9578

I really liked my idea before where its pretty much the opposite of confusion, could even rename it.

“Signet of Perseverance.”

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Posted by: Obscure One.4357

Obscure One.4357

Jon doubled the effectiveness of signets so now it’s like I run signets dipped in signets! But they missed healing signet!? Come on Jon, your slacking bro, dip my signet in more signet and plate that signet with signet homie! Then make that Yak signet bling bling me outta stun cuz I don’t like stances or shouting, they cramp my blingy signet style.

…painterly…stylized…aesthetic…

Circumventing profanity filters one kitten at a time.

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Posted by: Daecollo.9578

Daecollo.9578

Passive:
100%-50%: 450 (0.1*HP.)
50%-0%: 650 (0.2*HP.)

Active (15 second cool-down.)
2,920 (1*hp.)

Now its good for all sets of gear and it actually heals as much as a healing skill should heal for, its good for Clerics/Sentinels/Soldiers gear, Berserkers will however still have problems due to low toughness.

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(edited by Daecollo.9578)

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Posted by: Scoobaniec.9561

Scoobaniec.9561

450×30=13,5k hp in 30sec. And thats signet alone. I doubt any zerker would run surge when a signet heals for so much

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Posted by: Daecollo.9578

Daecollo.9578

Zerker would run surge, because they have to enter the fight and exit before conditions kill them.

Also, Mending/HS should also get healing improvements as well as HS.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mending – Reduce cool-down to 20s, make it a PHYSICAL skill. (make it effected by the grandmaster trait to improve its healing by 100%.)

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Surge – Double the heal amount.

30 seconds should at least heal us our full base HP.

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(edited by Daecollo.9578)

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Posted by: Scoobaniec.9561

Scoobaniec.9561

take a look in my thread in healing abilities.

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Posted by: Maliss.1248

Maliss.1248

A trait that would allow you to use signets and keep their passive effect would be another and it would make signet builds more viable.

I didn’t follow up on this last comment mainly because I didn’t feel like it but partly because it’s just obvious. Warrior Signets aren’t balanced to keep their passive effects always.

That’s why it would require a trait investment. I don’t see a single passive or active Warrior Signet ability that is extremely powerful if combined let alone overpowered (OP). If you look at signets and compare them to similar abilities you’ll notice that the passive and active portions are generally weaker than than the non signet versions. The advantage of these diluted signet abilities is that you have flexibility in using them for the active or passive.

Healing Signet: Closest candidate to being OP, as it would turn the weakest warrior heal into the strongest with about 390 HPS w- no healing power and the reduced cooldown trait. That’s very similar to the Ele version w- traits except the Ele version scales better (if you assume 1 cast per second which is fairly conservative for a D/D spec). However I’d actually suggest adding 10 seconds to the cooldown if this change went through dropping it to 330 HPS (after cooldown trait) so it’s not quite as strong.

Dolyak Signet: The active is worse than Balanced Stance with a longer cooldown and no stun break and no extended duration from stance mastery. The 180 toughness is a nice increase that would have a strong place in bunker builds. Since warriors are the only profession with no class access to protection I have a hard time calling this OP.

Signet of Fury: gives 180 precision to yourself. Banner of Discipline gives 170 precision and 15% crit damage, 25+ blast finishers along with permanent swiftness and fury for a group. An additional full bar of Adrenalin every 30 seconds is hardly OP considering several builds don’t even spend their adrenalin.

Signet of Might: This one is probably the strongest in an offensive build 180 power + 3 unblockable attacks every 25 seconds. However this new trait would most likely belong deep in tactics or defense making offensive synergy with a true glass cannon build a stretch. Also as with Signet of Fury you could provide 170 power and condition damage to a group with banner of strength instead of just providing 180 power to yourself.

Signet of Stamina: 33% endurance refill. This effectively adds one additional dodge every 30 seconds. I don’t think many people run this for the passive it’s just a nice perk until you use the active. Note that this endurance regen doesn’t stack with vigor nor do warriors have any defensive on dodge abilities like the guardians Selfless Daring or rangers Companion’s Defense. The condition clear is nice and several builds use it for the active.

Signet of Rage: Taken primarily for it’s active (swiftness, fury, might). Personally the only time I have this off coodown is when I’m waiting for the right time to use the active. The passive is 1 strike of adrenalin every 3 seconds or 1 full bar every 90 seconds (3 times worse at adrenalin generation than Signet of Fury).

While I agree this could be a nice buff to warriors you would be giving up several utility slots and a grand master trait to get it. Signets are selfish in nature, banners and shouts would bring more to a group setting than a signet warrior could hope to.

A warrior with a little extra adrenalin to spend or an extra dodge 30 seconds after he used his condition clear doesn’t strike fear into the pit of my stomach. So which signets specifically do you think will be problematic to game balance?

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Posted by: Olba.5376

Olba.5376

Signet of Fury: gives 180 precision to yourself. Banner of Discipline gives 170 precision and 15% crit damage, 25+ blast finishers along with permanent swiftness and fury for a group. An additional full bar of Adrenalin every 30 seconds is hardly OP considering several builds don’t even spend their adrenalin.

That’s like saying that Bull’s Charge is a kittenty utility because it has a 40s cooldown.

Signet of Fury allows you to punch out two max adrenaline bursts in a quick succession. Flurry>Eviscerate, Skull Crack>Eviscerate, Kill Shot>Eviscerate to name a few.

Also, the comparison with the banner isn’t really valid, considering that the banner has an uptime of 80% and requires that you stay within the 600 radius range.

Signet of Might: This one is probably the strongest in an offensive build 180 power + 3 unblockable attacks every 25 seconds. However this new trait would most likely belong deep in tactics or defense making offensive synergy with a true glass cannon build a stretch. Also as with Signet of Fury you could provide 170 power and condition damage to a group with banner of strength instead of just providing 180 power to yourself.

Not sure why you seem to think that non-glass cannon Warriors cannot dish out big numbers. It doesn’t take a 30/30/0/0/10 spec to get big numbers.

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Posted by: fost.9167

fost.9167

I sometimes run a P/V/T warrior and even with adrenal health, healing signet, ~1100 healing with shout heals/recharges you still die to anything, you have no sustain or protection, you’re better off just using a shield+/hammer and hoping you get a stun off until help comes.

DPS warriors sound great on paper too, until you know how it works and you can dodge HB gimmicks, eviscerates that never land, bull rushes that never connect, or advertized kill shots that you can dodge to avoid.

I switch it out sometimes for hammer/GS/longbow, but all this theory crafting is stupid, go play a warrior in the mists, try all these things you think are awesome and then when you realise it doesn’t work how you think then come back. We lack synergy with our skills.

Oh for PVE, I don’t do much of that so can’t comment.

That said I still play the class, I cant be bothered levelling an Ele or guardian.

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Posted by: Brutalistik.6473

Brutalistik.6473

I switch it out sometimes for hammer/GS/longbow, but all this theory crafting is stupid, go play a warrior in the mists, try all these things you think are awesome and then when you realise it doesn’t work how you think then come back. We lack synergy with our skills.

They won’t because I’ve been telling them that a couple of pages back. I guarantee they wouldn’t last long because they aren’t use to it, they’ll get bored quick and a bunker ranger, necro, mesmer, or any profession except warrior that will put pressure on them shows how viable warriors are in pvp territory. I know so because I’ve play a bunker healing warrior even though they can’t hold more than 1 opponent at a time while defending a node. It’s rough and challenge that’s for sure, but when it comes to conditions. Most of these posters who comes up with a solution aren’t aware of the fact how it performs in Spvp except a few like you and Daecollo.

Pineapples

(edited by Brutalistik.6473)

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Posted by: Leo G.4501

Leo G.4501

Banner of Discipline gives 170 precision and 15% crit damage, 25+ blast finishers along with permanent swiftness and fury for a group.

I hope you realize how preposterous you make that comparison.

As for what signet effect makes the idea not viable, it’s the general design of them all. Elementalist gets Written in Stone because their active effects amount to extra attacks that can be blocked or dodged and not modifiers of the class itself.

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Posted by: Daecollo.9578

Daecollo.9578

More condition removal? Let’s look…

Ranger has

  • Pet: Brown Bear’s F2
  • Heal: Healing Spring
  • Utility: Signet of Renewal
  • Trait: Empathic Bond (gives it to our pet … not always a good thing)

Warrior has

  • Heal: Mending
  • Utility: Signet of Stamina
  • Utility: Shake It Off!
  • Weapon: Warhorn’s Charge (chill/cripple/immob)
  • Trait: Shrug It Off
  • Trait + Weapon: Quick Breathing + Warhorn (turns into boons)
  • Trait: Mobile Strikes (chill/cripple/immob)

Also, it isn’t a HEAL, it’s a signet that provides hp/sec. Yours is providing you with more than 3x the healing the Ranger one is. If it also healed on its active, then you could talk.

Wow..a ranger complaining that the warrior class has better traits..guess which class is pretty OP in tourneys now..

Why do we have these people posting on our forums?

I’d rather have Empathic Bond… they can have everything else.

Your pet will take three conditions from you every 10 seconds. Immediately swap pets and they all go into the abyss!

That trait alone is worth more then every condition removal we have combined.

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(edited by Daecollo.9578)

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Posted by: Maliss.1248

Maliss.1248

Signet of Fury: gives 180 precision to yourself. Banner of Discipline gives 170 precision and 15% crit damage, 25+ blast finishers along with permanent swiftness and fury for a group. An additional full bar of Adrenalin every 30 seconds is hardly OP considering several builds don’t even spend their adrenalin.

That’s like saying that Bull’s Charge is a kittenty utility because it has a 40s cooldown.

Signet of Fury allows you to punch out two max adrenaline bursts in a quick succession. Flurry>Eviscerate, Skull Crack>Eviscerate, Kill Shot>Eviscerate to name a few.

Also, the comparison with the banner isn’t really valid, considering that the banner has an uptime of 80% and requires that you stay within the 600 radius range.

Signet of Might: This one is probably the strongest in an offensive build 180 power + 3 unblockable attacks every 25 seconds. However this new trait would most likely belong deep in tactics or defense making offensive synergy with a true glass cannon build a stretch. Also as with Signet of Fury you could provide 170 power and condition damage to a group with banner of strength instead of just providing 180 power to yourself.

Not sure why you seem to think that non-glass cannon Warriors cannot dish out big numbers. It doesn’t take a 30/30/0/0/10 spec to get big numbers.

The change I propose doesn’t change what Signet of Fury already does (i.e. allow 2 back to back burst skills). What it does is allow you to keep 180 Precision while you do the second one. If the trait is deep in the defense tree you are giving up more than 180 trait points that could be used for power, crit damage, or precision to pick it up. So I see it giving defensive builds a little more punch but offensive builds will see a net loss in DPS if they try to pick it up.

Banners have a 900 radius and 95% up time when traited for inspiring banners. While I understand they have issues in certain scenarios they are also very strong in others because they can effect 5 people and any ally can pick them up to activate their buffs and blast finishers. Even in a solo scenario they can provide far more offense than a signet passive as long as you can stay within the radius.

Big numbers are relative anything you can do in terms of DPS without 30 trait points I can do better with those additional 30 trait points invested into DPS traits.

As for Bull’s Charge it’s one of my favorite utilities a gap closer, gap creator, and CC on one button with no trait investment required.

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Posted by: Maliss.1248

Maliss.1248

Banner of Discipline gives 170 precision and 15% crit damage, 25+ blast finishers along with permanent swiftness and fury for a group.

I hope you realize how preposterous you make that comparison.

Why because I used facts?

As for what signet effect makes the idea not viable, it’s the general design of them all. Elementalist gets Written in Stone because their active effects amount to extra attacks that can be blocked or dodged and not modifiers of the class itself.

The active effects of warriors are not modifiers of the class itself. You get a heal, stability, adrenalin, a condition cleanse, 3 unblockable attacks, might, fury, and swiftness. However warriors can already get all that. Not at the same time of course because that’s 4 utilities for 3 utility slots.

What they are gaining are the passive effects while those abilities are on cooldown for a 30 point trait investment in Defense. The passives amount to 200 HPS, 180 Precision, 180 Toughness, 180 Power, 1 extra dodge every 30 seconds, and 1 extra adrenalin bar every 90 seconds.

The power and precision is a net loss because you’d get far more offense by investing those 30 trait points into Strength Arms or Discipline.

The HPS and toughness are strong additions to a bunker build which most people agree is a huge warrior weakness (the inability to bunker a point due to lack of sustain). Shoudl also note that while I listed it as a 200 HPS gain above in reality it’s only ~60 HPS gain over using healing Surge at full adrenalin.

The Extra dodge and Adrenalin come at such a slow pace (30 and 90 seconds respectively) that it’s of very little use to glass cannons. Their fights should generally be decided one way or the other long before 30 or 90 seconds have elapsed. For a bunker builds these are beneficial but there are far easier ways to achieve more effective results like traiting embrace the pain or running sigils of energy.

I don’t think it’s a good use of time or energy to fixate on how classes were designed but rather to look at where they are now and need help. Comparing Ele skills and traits as a direct correlation to warrior ones is a futile exercise you need to look at the class as a whole and determine if it needs adjustment up or down. So the question shouldn’t be are warrior and elementalist signets equivalent but rather, Can they both make effective bunkers? When viewed through that lens we can start to think about what adjustments need to be made to bring the professions into balance.

TLDR I don’t think a grandmaster trait in defense that allows signets to maintain their passive effects after activation adds anything to a DPS glass cannon build that couldn’t be done more effectively already. A bunker build would gain some HPS and mitigation which it sorely needs but it comes at the cost of bring less to a team fight than a banner build.

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Posted by: Leo G.4501

Leo G.4501

Banner of Discipline gives 170 precision and 15% crit damage, 25+ blast finishers along with permanent swiftness and fury for a group.

I hope you realize how preposterous you make that comparison.

Why because I used facts?

Because Banner =/= 25 blast finishers under any viable circumstances nor is it permanent swiftness and fury.

The active effects of warriors are not modifiers of the class itself. You get a heal, stability, adrenalin, a condition cleanse, 3 unblockable attacks, might, fury, and swiftness. However warriors can already get all that. Not at the same time of course because that’s 4 utilities for 3 utility slots.

All of those are modifying your performance. Elementalist signet actives modify the performance of the target by doing some damage and applying a condition. There’s a huge difference in applying a blind/immobilize/chill/burn vs cleansing all conditions/giving you unblockable attacks/granting you boons/refilling your adrenaline.

If you can’t understand why Elementalists get Written in Stone (tl;dr: it’s because they have inherently lackluster active effects) then me trying to explain it more isn’t doing either of us any good.

If the devs change their minds and feel we need much more potent signets, then we can start rethinking how signets work and give all passives improved effects ontop of significantly improved actives, rethinking their effects in relation to traits may be in order. Changing all that just for Healing Signet reeks of favoritism to Warriors.

Why give Warrior’s such treatment? Why can’t I have +HP for my phantasms while recharging all my shatters without losing the HP benefit? Forget that I can use Illusionary Persona, mash all my shatters to heal, recharge them and do it again, then still throw down an army of illusions with modified HP…I want it because Elementalist has it and Warriors are begging for it to so I should have it.

I don’t think it’s a good use of time or energy to fixate on how classes were designed but rather to look at where they are now and need help. Comparing Ele skills and traits as a direct correlation to warrior ones is a futile exercise you need to look at the class as a whole and determine if it needs adjustment up or down.

Which is why I think you should quit attempting to emulate other professions’ mechanics.

And also because it works against what I hope the devs are aiming for: more powerful active effects for Warrior Signets. Currently, they are in a position for it primarily because they don’t have strong mechanics that would make such a change overpowered. The reason Ele doesn’t get more powerful signet actives is because they have traits that trigger on their use, making the actives more powerful if traited…but it comes at the cost of them being weaker by default.

(edited by Leo G.4501)

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Posted by: Maliss.1248

Maliss.1248

Banner of Discipline gives 170 precision and 15% crit damage, 25+ blast finishers along with permanent swiftness and fury for a group.

I hope you realize how preposterous you make that comparison.

Why because I used facts?

Because Banner =/= 25 blast finishers under any viable circumstances nor is it permanent swiftness and fury.

Do you know that anyone can pick up the banner and use the buffs and the cooldowns are tied to the individual and not the banner? Meaning a group of 5 can pass it around to use the blast finishers and buffs since they are all on 10-15 second cooldowns. Fury from Banner of Discipline is 8 second duration with a 10 second cool down as soon as you involve a second person in the buff cycle you have permanent Fury even if both people have 0 boon duration. Similarly Swiftness is 10 seconds on a 15 second cooldown. And blast finishers are on a 10 second cooldown. In a group of 5 that works out to about 45 potential blast finishers per banner dropped 25 is a conservative number. If you don’t want to involve other people 60% boon duration will give one person the capability to buff a group with permanent swiftness and fury.

Why give Warrior’s such treatment? Why can’t I have +HP for my phantasms while recharging all my shatters without losing the HP benefit? Forget that I can use Illusionary Persona, mash all my shatters to heal, recharge them and do it again, then still throw down an army of illusions with modified HP…I want it because Elementalist has it and Warriors are begging for it to so I should have it.

Because mesmers are in a good place in terms of survivability and DPS depending on the build. Warriors are weak in terms of defense and bunkering and need a buff in that area. Your argument has nothing to do with game balance.

And also because it works against what I hope the devs are aiming for: more powerful active effects for Warrior Signets. Currently, they are in a position for it primarily because they don’t have strong mechanics that would make such a change overpowered.

Stronger actives could make Glass Cannon builds that much stronger. Warrior DPS isn’t in need of upward tweaks. I ran my warrior in WvW the other week in PVT armor but an otherwise glassy build (20/30/0/0/20) without consumables and was dropping 20k 100B’s and 16k Killshots. If I had run zerker armor, consumables, and DPS oriented utilities I’m sure those numbers would have been much higher.

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Posted by: AlBundy.7851

AlBundy.7851

lol hmm pvt gear no food and no damage increase utilities and pulling off 20k hb and 16k killshots. unlikely unless the ppl you were attacking were lvl 1’s.

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Posted by: Leo G.4501

Leo G.4501

Do you know that anyone can pick up the banner and use the buffs and the cooldowns are tied to the individual and not the banner?

And you do realize, coordinating 5+ people to pick up a banner and plant it for a no-damage blast finisher to produce even half as many blast finishers you’re talking about worsens their performance since they’re not actively moving and killing stuff.

You can attribute utilities’ capabilities to on-paper figures, it doesn’t mean diddly when you ignore what you have to do to accomplish it…namely bundling into a tiny area for a 400 range 5 target cap blast finisher.

Fury from Banner of Discipline is 8 second duration with a 10 second cool down as soon as you involve a second person in the buff cycle you have permanent Fury even if both people have 0 boon duration.

It’s also an additional 1sec cast ontop of the half second cast of picking it up ontop of the 1sec plant animation that can be interrupted. So yeah, I’m not thinking anyone’s going to attribute all of that which basically hinders a groups overall performance (if you need fury, ask your group to coordinate utilities that DON’T lock you out of your regular skills for a portion of time) then compare that outrageous oversimplification to the base of other utilities…no. Just no. Stop.

Your argument has nothing to do with game balance.

And your argument dismisses that such a change would improve their offense when you’re really trying to improve their defense. In essence, you can fix Warriors problems in other ways that doesn’t net buff everything else in the process.

tl;dr: I suggest you go back to the drawing board.

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Posted by: AlBundy.7851

AlBundy.7851

lol that favoritism crack where have you been for the past 9 months? stop trolling bro

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Posted by: Leo G.4501

Leo G.4501

lol that favoritism crack where have you been for the past 9 months? stop trolling bro

Nope, I’m just not a blind idiot that thinks “I iz a Warrz, we need this cuz ppl say i suxxor”. It’s not a good habit, blinding yourself with your own favoritism while accusing others of the same thing.

I mean, if coordinating 25+ blast finishers with a banner was so awesome and stacking perma fury with Discipline banner was all the rage, why don’t people use the tactic?

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Posted by: Maliss.1248

Maliss.1248

lol hmm pvt gear no food and no damage increase utilities and pulling off 20k hb and 16k killshots. unlikely unless the ppl you were attacking were lvl 1’s.

PVT armor, not gear. I was running full ruby trinkets and divinity runes. Rifle was PVT but Great Sword was zerker.

I have no idea what level they were but I was consistently getting those numbers on Keep lords as well as players. Should note this was all in a zerg so I’m sure I was getting buffs and my targets were getting debuffed.

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Posted by: Daecollo.9578

Daecollo.9578

lol hmm pvt gear no food and no damage increase utilities and pulling off 20k hb and 16k killshots. unlikely unless the ppl you were attacking were lvl 1’s.

PVT armor, not gear. I was running full ruby trinkets and divinity runes. Rifle was PVT but Great Sword was zerker.

I have no idea what level they were but I was consistently getting those numbers on Keep lords as well as players. Should note this was all in a zerg so I’m sure I was getting buffs and my targets were getting debuffed.

I think people learned how to “DODGE” from back then, 100b is the easiest ability in the game to avoid.

I wish they would greatly nerf its damage and make it mobile.

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Posted by: Brutalistik.6473

Brutalistik.6473

lol hmm pvt gear no food and no damage increase utilities and pulling off 20k hb and 16k killshots. unlikely unless the ppl you were attacking were lvl 1’s.

PVT armor, not gear. I was running full ruby trinkets and divinity runes. Rifle was PVT but Great Sword was zerker.

I have no idea what level they were but I was consistently getting those numbers on Keep lords as well as players. Should note this was all in a zerg so I’m sure I was getting buffs and my targets were getting debuffed.

I think people learned how to “DODGE” from back then, 100b is the easiest ability in the game to avoid.

I wish they would greatly nerf its damage and make it mobile.

I don’t think that would make 100blades worthwhile especially to those who play bunker builds. It will just make 100blades laughable damage and I can assure you warriors will switch to axe main hand immediately.

Pineapples

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Posted by: Daecollo.9578

Daecollo.9578

lol hmm pvt gear no food and no damage increase utilities and pulling off 20k hb and 16k killshots. unlikely unless the ppl you were attacking were lvl 1’s.

PVT armor, not gear. I was running full ruby trinkets and divinity runes. Rifle was PVT but Great Sword was zerker.

I have no idea what level they were but I was consistently getting those numbers on Keep lords as well as players. Should note this was all in a zerg so I’m sure I was getting buffs and my targets were getting debuffed.

I think people learned how to “DODGE” from back then, 100b is the easiest ability in the game to avoid.

I wish they would greatly nerf its damage and make it mobile.

I don’t think that would make 100blades worthwhile especially to those who play bunker builds. It will just make 100blades laughable damage and I can assure you warriors will switch to axe main hand immediately.

It already is laughable damage, people can simply walk out of it.

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Posted by: Brutalistik.6473

Brutalistik.6473

lol hmm pvt gear no food and no damage increase utilities and pulling off 20k hb and 16k killshots. unlikely unless the ppl you were attacking were lvl 1’s.

PVT armor, not gear. I was running full ruby trinkets and divinity runes. Rifle was PVT but Great Sword was zerker.

I have no idea what level they were but I was consistently getting those numbers on Keep lords as well as players. Should note this was all in a zerg so I’m sure I was getting buffs and my targets were getting debuffed.

I think people learned how to “DODGE” from back then, 100b is the easiest ability in the game to avoid.

I wish they would greatly nerf its damage and make it mobile.

I don’t think that would make 100blades worthwhile especially to those who play bunker builds. It will just make 100blades laughable damage and I can assure you warriors will switch to axe main hand immediately.

It already is laughable damage, people can simply walk out of it.

and nerfing it would only make it worst so you just countered your own answered. Some warriors just gotta stop treating 100blades is the winning move in pvp since they know it can be avoided. When I fooled around with GS the only way I got my opponents in a 100blades barrage is when they used all of their endurance up / condition removal to get out of my immobilize. Yeah I spilled the beans there, but people will tend to forget anyway except experts. Bolas comes in handy when you have LB / GS combo + leg specialist.

P.S let’s not derail the thread now with irrelevant stuff even though some got through.

Pineapples