Guild Wars 2

Reslinal.2359:

I play on NA t1 and have been on both the side that tries to use AC in open field battle (with WM) and the side that tries to destroy opposing zerg (with KnT against TW) that uses AC in open field battle. While it adds some elements in open field battle, it is certainly not as game breaking as some people here tries to make it sound. We lost the field battle where we tried to use AC and won the field battle when the opposing side tried to use AC.

That’s probably because using ACs in open field fights is wicked stupid.

Hint; don’t run away from the ACs; get right on top of them. It’s not hard at all.

Chaba.5410:

Tearofsoul.9843:

DevonCarver.5370:

We are also addressing their range when upgraded to be more in line with the range of ballistas.

My dear dev,

Are you trolling on us or what?

Thanks

Geek time: historic Hwacha and Ballistas had roughly the same range. Not that the Hwacha arrow rockets could fire through walls or anything like that though.

Do not tempt me with the notion of Hwatchas!!!! I’ve been geeking out on those ever since I saw them build one on Mythbusters. =P

Wow so not only is siege woefully broken now, it may take MONTHS to address some of the problems with it? I mean, the AC thing is as simple as reverting it to the previous level and THEN take months doing whatever the heck you are doing with siege.

No need to ruin WvW for a month or months because of something so easy to revert. Good thing there are ton of betas out right now!

DevonCarver.5370:

To be a little clearer. The fixes to arrow carts will be coming quickly. We are already putting those in and testing them. Those should bring them more in line with what we expect them to be.

This is great. Can you now revert the massive nerf to confusion? The change (-50% damage reduction) killed it, and builds that use it, in sPvP. That same change has killed it in WvW as well. Over-the-top changes of this nature are orthogonal to any claims that GW2 is trying to promote build diversity.

FractalChaos.6539:

Reslinal.2359:

I play on NA t1 and have been on both the side that tries to use AC in open field battle (with WM) and the side that tries to destroy opposing zerg (with KnT against TW) that uses AC in open field battle. While it adds some elements in open field battle, it is certainly not as game breaking as some people here tries to make it sound. We lost the field battle where we tried to use AC and won the field battle when the opposing side tried to use AC.

That’s probably because using ACs in open field fights is wicked stupid.

Hint; don’t run away from the ACs; get right on top of them. It’s not hard at all.

Until they drop a second one.

Heijincks.9267:

Actually, they aren’t as big as a problem as you say they are. I’ve seen open field arrow carts built all the time post-patch too, both on my own side and the enemy side. We’ve managed to destroy theirs, and they managed to destroy ours suffering minimal losses. All you need is to be able to do is to flank. An arrow cart can’t cover all spaces at once.

Prepare for answers like “We never used to have to flank before; why do we have to start now?” and of course, the hilarious “You obviously don’t know what you’re talking about. When two zergs meet whoever drops the first AC wins”, spouted in this very thread 2-3 pages back.

Hilarious I tell you.

thiagoperne.7340:

Tearofsoul.9843:

thiagoperne.7340:

LoL at those jumping in saying that is gonna quit if doesn’t fix it, that’s hilarious!

First, if you and your friends and the entire guild leaves the game they won’t even notice you, it would actually help others, less bad players and shorter queues.

Second, good luck finding a game better then this. Or even close to it.

I haven’t seen a fanboy for a long long time

Just being realistic. And yea Im a fan, but little older for a boy so would be a fanman.

Also since my reply got you buthurt, I can assume you were one of them, poor you.

Funny thing is that some of the players you’re calling “bad” are some of the players reresenting the majority of what realistically are the most talented players in WvW.

BT, for instance, are extremely talented at WvW meta, sieging, open-field combat. They’re also a big guild. They’re also extremely outspoken about how terrible this change has been.

The players you’re going to be losing are the vast swaths of dedicated GOOD players. The bad players aren’t going to know any better.

Johje Holan.4607:

FractalChaos.6539:

Terkov.4138:

I really hope all the ppl saying they will quit GW2, will really quit

One can only hope…

Couldn’t agree more.

I have lost some respect for some guilds and individuals through this “discussion”. Its really the nasty nature of some of them too.

I mean, Devon responds, and they still reply with rude or nasty comments.

In all fairness, I’m sure Devon can cope; being a community manager by definition involves dealing with a large group of people who have zero accountability for anything they say. The Internet is rude. Unfortunate, but undeniable.

DevonCarver.5370:

I’d like to shed some light on our thinking with this AC change as well as tell you all what we are doing right now to balance it….

Firstly, when siege weapons were originally created, they had the intent of being really good at some things and not so good at others. The arrow cart is intended to be the anti-personal siege weapon. It is intended that arrow carts are all about controlling an area through damage. If you remain in the area that is being hit by the arrow cart, you will die. You can however, move out of the space and/or find a new way to attack the intended target. That being said, they are not intended to be so good against other siege weapons and we are in the process of addressing that right now. We are also addressing their range when upgraded to be more in line with the range of ballistas.

Secondly, this change is going to require new tactics and those tactics include things like using ballista and catapults to destroy arrow carts. With that in mind, we’ve been looking more closely at the numbers of all the siege weapons and there are definitely some changes that need to be made to bring them in line with their intent. We are going to take a holistic pass at siege weapons in the coming months and drop a rebalance of all of them to get them to more closely align with what they should be doing.

Finally, the feedback you all provide is a very useful part of this whole process. WvW is a living, breathing game type and any changes we make have numerous consequences that don’t become fully visible until everyone starts interacting with them and devising new strategies. Our goal is to provide a complex combat space that rewards skill, tactics, and ingenuity and while we haven’t fully achieved that goal yet, I like to think we are getting there.

Well, the problem right now is that most groups can’t stay alive long enough to use ballista and catapults to destroy arrow carts – if they can even hit them – and people get frustrated and go on to other, easier to achieve goals. My guess is that AN was trying to slow down the pace some, resulting in longer, more protracted, sieges and battles. Unfortunately, though, the main result of this is that servers that can field the most numbers on wvw maps after reset now have a much bigger advantage. They rush in and take keeps and towers, often by throwing a bunch of golems at them, and can now much more easily hold them, and if they manage to keep hold of them most or all of the weekend, they’ll likely have a huge lead that’s almost impossible for the other servers to overcome. Then the majority of players give up for the rest of the week and go off to do pve – or don’t play at all.

Hickeroar.9734:

FractalChaos.6539:

Reslinal.2359:

I play on NA t1 and have been on both the side that tries to use AC in open field battle (with WM) and the side that tries to destroy opposing zerg (with KnT against TW) that uses AC in open field battle. While it adds some elements in open field battle, it is certainly not as game breaking as some people here tries to make it sound. We lost the field battle where we tried to use AC and won the field battle when the opposing side tried to use AC.

That’s probably because using ACs in open field fights is wicked stupid.

Hint; don’t run away from the ACs; get right on top of them. It’s not hard at all.

Until they drop a second one.

You don’t even need two. Build arrow cart. Have half your players drop their stuns. Wait for people to use condi removal. Have other half drop your stuns.

You can easily wipe a group before they ever reach your arrow cart. We did it multiple times yesterday and I’m sure we’ll spend much of tonight playing arrow cart wars 2.

The response I’ve seen from this is ‘well don’t get in range of the arrow cart’. Great, as if fights weren’t hard enough to come across, now we’re encouraging groups to flee to their nearest tower.

People can try to convince others all day that siege wars are fun and flash building arrow carts should be a legitimate tactic in open field combat. Those of us that prefer actual fights.. you know.. utilizing player skill and such are going to disagree. There’s no fun in spending 50g on gearing up your character only to spend most of your time using or protecting siege weapons. I realize some of you like this and that’s great, doesn’t mean it is objectively the correct course for the game.

FractalChaos.6539:

Heijincks.9267:

Actually, they aren’t as big as a problem as you say they are. I’ve seen open field arrow carts built all the time post-patch too, both on my own side and the enemy side. We’ve managed to destroy theirs, and they managed to destroy ours suffering minimal losses. All you need is to be able to do is to flank. An arrow cart can’t cover all spaces at once.

Prepare for answers like “We never used to have to flank before; why do we have to start now?” and of course, the hilarious “You obviously don’t know what you’re talking about. When two zergs meet whoever drops the first AC wins”, spouted in this very thread 2-3 pages back.

Hilarious I tell you.

Deciding to flank while already engaged in head-to-head combat is a risky prospect under the BEST of circumstances. You are a classic armchair quarterback…

What happens if you ARE flanking at the time? What happens if a flank is impossible because of the terrain? There are a nearly unlimited list of reasons why what you’re suggesting is impractical or impossible in the vast majority of cases.

Silver.9084:

Svarty.8019:

Aneu.1748:

WvW is meant to be about players fighting players

That is opinion, not fact.

Actually it is fact, not opinion.

A-net definition of WvW : World vs. World (WvW) is PvP combat that involves hundred of players.

…using siege weapons to fight over keeps and towersblablabla we’ve been over this before. GW2 wiki, etc etc etc. Worn out non sequitur.

Hickeroar.9734:

thiagoperne.7340:

Tearofsoul.9843:

thiagoperne.7340:

LoL at those jumping in saying that is gonna quit if doesn’t fix it, that’s hilarious!

First, if you and your friends and the entire guild leaves the game they won’t even notice you, it would actually help others, less bad players and shorter queues.

Second, good luck finding a game better then this. Or even close to it.

I haven’t seen a fanboy for a long long time

Just being realistic. And yea Im a fan, but little older for a boy so would be a fanman.

Also since my reply got you buthurt, I can assume you were one of them, poor you.

Funny thing is that some of the players you’re calling “bad” are some of the players reresenting the majority of what realistically are the most talented players in WvW.

BT, for instance, are extremely talented at WvW meta, sieging, open-field combat. They’re also a big guild. They’re also extremely outspoken about how terrible this change has been.

The players you’re going to be losing are the vast swaths of dedicated GOOD players. The bad players aren’t going to know any better.

Bingo, this change is just going to make the good players and serious players leave WvW because it has become a joke. The players that just run to swords or with a whichever group they came across first probably won’t care.

Tearofsoul.9843:

The funny thing is NO ONE was complaining about AC pre-patch, I mean NO ONE.

So please, if it is working, DON’T try to “fix” it

I did.

They were way to weak.

There is something wrong when I can stand in them and not die and I’m just using the AOE field to get my adrenaline up so my earthshaker would be ready for the push.

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Tearofsoul.9843:

The funny thing is NO ONE was complaining about AC pre-patch, I mean NO ONE.

So please, if it is working, DON’T try to “fix” it

I did.

They were way to weak.

There is something wrong when I can stand in them and not die and I’m just using the AOE field to get my adrenaline up so my earthshaker would be ready for the push.

I can stand in the middle of an ele’s meteor shower and not die. Let’s buff that. Oh, and I can take a treb shot to the face and not die. And you can smack my character in the face with a sword and I won’t die. I can take a ballista shot to the chest and not die. I can take several zerker thief heartseekers in a row and not die. For that matter I can take pretty much any attack by any class using any weapon in the whole game and not be killed.

Better just buff everything!

It doesn’t matter that you couldn’t instantly die standing in AC fire. It’s fun/playability that I’m worried about. Realism doesn’t even enter in the equation, and it shouldn’t.

They were BALANCED before. Now they’re heavily unbalanced.

Hickeroar.9734:

FractalChaos.6539:

Heijincks.9267:

Actually, they aren’t as big as a problem as you say they are. I’ve seen open field arrow carts built all the time post-patch too, both on my own side and the enemy side. We’ve managed to destroy theirs, and they managed to destroy ours suffering minimal losses. All you need is to be able to do is to flank. An arrow cart can’t cover all spaces at once.

Prepare for answers like “We never used to have to flank before; why do we have to start now?” and of course, the hilarious “You obviously don’t know what you’re talking about. When two zergs meet whoever drops the first AC wins”, spouted in this very thread 2-3 pages back.

Hilarious I tell you.

Deciding to flank while already engaged in head-to-head combat is a risky prospect under the BEST of circumstances. You are a classic armchair quarterback…

What happens if you ARE flanking at the time? What happens if a flank is impossible because of the terrain? There are a nearly unlimited list of reasons why what you’re suggesting is impractical or impossible in the vast majority of cases.

This may sound odd, but you remind me of the British trying to fight the Minutemen back in the Revolutionary War. It sounds like you’re looking for nice, neat organized combat and upset that the Minutemen are using guerrilla tactics against you.

Yes, ACs hit hard enough now that they can have an impact on a battle. If you let them.

“One mark of a great soldier is that he fight on his own terms or fights not at all.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War

Hickeroar.9734:

I can stand in the middle of an ele’s meteor shower and not die. Let’s buff that.

lol to this. Agree with the rest as well.

VOLKON.1290:

““One mark of a great soldier is that he fight on his own terms or fights not at all.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War

Fits perfectly with the theme of less people willing to fight because the other group has arrow carts everywhere.

Hickeroar.9734:

I can stand in the middle of an ele’s meteor shower and not die. Let’s buff that. Oh, and I can take a treb shot to the face and not die. And you can smack my character in the face with a sword and I won’t die. I can take a ballista shot to the chest and not die. I can take several zerker thief heartseekers in a row and not die. For that matter I can take pretty much any attack by any class using any weapon in the whole game and not be killed.

Better just buff everything!

Someone get the horses, its a massive strawman. I’m sorry but this sort of reply is just plain dumb.

DevonCarver.5370:

Our goal is to provide a complex combat space that rewards skill, tactics, and ingenuity and while we haven’t fully achieved that goal yet, I like to think we are getting there.

I’d like to think you’re not even close. So many classes are suffering from basic skills that have no meaning or any quality.. So many weapon sets suck for multiple classes.. Rewards skill is possibly the biggest joke I’ve ever seen.. Address the AoE limit, possibly increase it? The rewards are complete and utter garbage/no ascended anything in WvW, and the drop rates are bad. Everything is a clump of zergs. Skill; yup. You’re getting there if you’re walking with 1 left foot underwater.

Silas.8630:

FractalChaos.6539:

I’m actually trying to help you.

I oppose anyone whose position is based on hearsay and lack of evidence. I don’t care if I’m personally right or wrong. Really. If tomorrow Anet comes out and says “Arrow Carts are accounting for far too many victories in WvW; our recent change to arrow carts will be rolled back pending more data”, I’m not going to hide. I’ll be here, and my response will be “Hmm. Really? Oh well.”

Please see:

DevonCarver.5370:

I’d like to shed some light on our thinking with this AC change as well as tell you all what we are doing right now to balance it.

Firstly, when siege weapons were originally created, they had the intent of being really good at some things and not so good at others. The arrow cart is intended to be the anti-personal siege weapon. It is intended that arrow carts are all about controlling an area through damage. If you remain in the area that is being hit by the arrow cart, you will die. You can however, move out of the space and/or find a new way to attack the intended target. That being said, they are not intended to be so good against other siege weapons and we are in the process of addressing that right now. We are also addressing their range when upgraded to be more in line with the range of ballistas.

Secondly, this change is going to require new tactics and those tactics include things like using ballista and catapults to destroy arrow carts. With that in mind, we’ve been looking more closely at the numbers of all the siege weapons and there are definitely some changes that need to be made to bring them in line with their intent. We are going to take a holistic pass at siege weapons in the coming months and drop a rebalance of all of them to get them to more closely align with what they should be doing.

Finally, the feedback you all provide is a very useful part of this whole process. WvW is a living, breathing game type and any changes we make have numerous consequences that don’t become fully visible until everyone starts interacting with them and devising new strategies. Our goal is to provide a complex combat space that rewards skill, tactics, and ingenuity and while we haven’t fully achieved that goal yet, I like to think we are getting there.

So in response to:

FractalChaos.6539:

If you think I’m wrong, if you think arrow carts are overpowered and ruining WvW, if you think ArenaNet has to roll back this change, if you’re really serious about that; prove it.

No need to prove it to you, apparently ANet already agrees with us.
Now would be an appropriate time for you to admit that you were wrong and move along.

How odd. When I read Devon’s statement, he seems to say "We’ll be tweaking arrow cart range, as well as their effectiveness against other siege weapons. We’ll also be looking at other siege weapons to see if they need to be better at destroying arrow carts (by extending their range, reducing the AC’s, etc).

I don’t see anything about the arrow cart buff being rolled back. They’re thinking of reducing AC range and AC effectiveness against other siege weapons. I do notice he mentions something else which I find very significant;

“Secondly, this change is going to require new tactics and those tactics include things like using ballista and catapults to destroy arrow carts.”

Is he not telling you there- in a very polite, very politically correct, very adult fashion – to adapt to this change? TO ‘learn new tricks"? Sure looks like it to me. Sure looks like they think the arrow cart damage isn’t the deal breaker you think it is, either.

TL;DR: Arenanet is looking at reducing arrow cart range and making them less effective against other siege weapons, but players themselves have to learn (and I quote again) “…new tactics and those tactics include things like using ballista and catapults to destroy arrow carts.”.

FractalChaos.6539:

I agree there’s a problem; 3 or 4 times already in this thread I’ve stated that my vote goes to making siege weapons invulnerable to AC fire (no more killing rams, catas, or even Golems with ACs) and rolling back the damage from its current 80% to 50%.

So most of the complaining in this tread is centered around the AC dmg dealt to siege, and you yourself agree that the dmg to siege needs to be toned down. In order to prove your point you offer to post “30-40” videos of you, a player, standing in and surviving AC fire…because that makes sense.

Post 30-40 videos of a ram surviving AC fire and I might reverse my opinion about your intelligence.

arrow carts are currently over powered.
no one can argue with that.
and if a thing is OP it should be nerfed.

VOLKON.1290:

Hickeroar.9734:

FractalChaos.6539:

Heijincks.9267:

Actually, they aren’t as big as a problem as you say they are. I’ve seen open field arrow carts built all the time post-patch too, both on my own side and the enemy side. We’ve managed to destroy theirs, and they managed to destroy ours suffering minimal losses. All you need is to be able to do is to flank. An arrow cart can’t cover all spaces at once.

Prepare for answers like “We never used to have to flank before; why do we have to start now?” and of course, the hilarious “You obviously don’t know what you’re talking about. When two zergs meet whoever drops the first AC wins”, spouted in this very thread 2-3 pages back.

Hilarious I tell you.

Deciding to flank while already engaged in head-to-head combat is a risky prospect under the BEST of circumstances. You are a classic armchair quarterback…

What happens if you ARE flanking at the time? What happens if a flank is impossible because of the terrain? There are a nearly unlimited list of reasons why what you’re suggesting is impractical or impossible in the vast majority of cases.

This may sound odd, but you remind me of the British trying to fight the Minutemen back in the Revolutionary War. It sounds like you’re looking for nice, neat organized combat and upset that the Minutemen are using guerrilla tactics against you.

Yes, ACs hit hard enough now that they can have an impact on a battle. If you let them.

“One mark of a great soldier is that he fight on his own terms or fights not at all.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War

Ironic that you should quote the art of war while most thoroughly misunderstanding it…

Terrain, for instance, makes up about half of the Art of War. If it was as simple as FLANK FLANK FLANK, it would be one thing…but you’re suggesting a blanket tactic that is downright idiotic in the majority of cases.

Also, the idea Sun Tzu et al supports is that you never fight unless you absolutely have to, and then only when you know you’re going to win “without a doubt.” That’s a great thing in real life. It’s also a really really boring way to play a game.

There are LOTS of things in the Art of War that can be applied to WvW when it comes to actually being in combat. If you want to follow all of it to a T, you’re going to end up with three zergs on the map, holed up in keeps and towers, making faces at each other.

Johje Holan.4607:

FractalChaos.6539:

Tearofsoul.9843:

The funny thing is NO ONE was complaining about AC pre-patch, I mean NO ONE.
So please, if it is working, DON’T try to “fix” it

No one was complaining about arrow carts specifically, very true. A metric crapload of people were complaining about how badly disadvantaged defenders were in a siege, however. So while no one may have asked for a specific buff to ACs, a lot of people sure wanted keep and tower defense to be about more than who fielded more people.

There may not have been a seperate thread but there were many posts about how weak arrow carts were and increasing their damage.

Yes but unfortunately those posts were usually buried deeeeeep in a mess of “Siege is fine learn to play” posts. =( I found that most people were speaking about ACs because they were the most logical way of addressing zergs. “ACs are supposed to kill people; ACs are not killing people. Make ACs able to do what they are meant to do” was the common argument if I recall.

Vena.8436:

Hickeroar.9734:

I can stand in the middle of an ele’s meteor shower and not die. Let’s buff that. Oh, and I can take a treb shot to the face and not die. And you can smack my character in the face with a sword and I won’t die. I can take a ballista shot to the chest and not die. I can take several zerker thief heartseekers in a row and not die. For that matter I can take pretty much any attack by any class using any weapon in the whole game and not be killed.

Better just buff everything!

Someone get the horses, its a massive strawman. I’m sorry but this sort of reply is just plain dumb.

It was sarcasm…..and apparently lost on you.

Moloch.8013:

arrow carts are currently over powered.
no one can argue with that.
and if a thing is OP it should be nerfed.

I can argue that. I say their power is appropriate and we need to adapt our tactics to handle this. An old college drinking buddy of mine had a quote that covers this nicely:

“Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.”
Sun Tzu

Ah, Sun. He had quite the way with women. When he wasn’t beheading them, that is.

Well instead of writing on forum how good the AC buff is, go out and WvW since its reset, and see how broken it is

Look at all these bad T2 players that obviously don’t understand how the game should be played.

FractalChaos.6539:

Silas.8630:

FractalChaos.6539:

I’m actually trying to help you.

I oppose anyone whose position is based on hearsay and lack of evidence. I don’t care if I’m personally right or wrong. Really. If tomorrow Anet comes out and says “Arrow Carts are accounting for far too many victories in WvW; our recent change to arrow carts will be rolled back pending more data”, I’m not going to hide. I’ll be here, and my response will be “Hmm. Really? Oh well.”

Please see:

DevonCarver.5370:

I’d like to shed some light on our thinking with this AC change as well as tell you all what we are doing right now to balance it.

Firstly, when siege weapons were originally created, they had the intent of being really good at some things and not so good at others. The arrow cart is intended to be the anti-personal siege weapon. It is intended that arrow carts are all about controlling an area through damage. If you remain in the area that is being hit by the arrow cart, you will die. You can however, move out of the space and/or find a new way to attack the intended target. That being said, they are not intended to be so good against other siege weapons and we are in the process of addressing that right now. We are also addressing their range when upgraded to be more in line with the range of ballistas.

Secondly, this change is going to require new tactics and those tactics include things like using ballista and catapults to destroy arrow carts. With that in mind, we’ve been looking more closely at the numbers of all the siege weapons and there are definitely some changes that need to be made to bring them in line with their intent. We are going to take a holistic pass at siege weapons in the coming months and drop a rebalance of all of them to get them to more closely align with what they should be doing.

Finally, the feedback you all provide is a very useful part of this whole process. WvW is a living, breathing game type and any changes we make have numerous consequences that don’t become fully visible until everyone starts interacting with them and devising new strategies. Our goal is to provide a complex combat space that rewards skill, tactics, and ingenuity and while we haven’t fully achieved that goal yet, I like to think we are getting there.

So in response to:

FractalChaos.6539:

If you think I’m wrong, if you think arrow carts are overpowered and ruining WvW, if you think ArenaNet has to roll back this change, if you’re really serious about that; prove it.

No need to prove it to you, apparently ANet already agrees with us.
Now would be an appropriate time for you to admit that you were wrong and move along.

How odd. When I read Devon’s statement, he seems to say "We’ll be tweaking arrow cart range, as well as their effectiveness against other siege weapons. We’ll also be looking at other siege weapons to see if they need to be better at destroying arrow carts (by extending their range, reducing the AC’s, etc).

I don’t see anything about the arrow cart buff being rolled back. They’re thinking of reducing AC range and AC effectiveness against other siege weapons. I do notice he mentions something else which I find very significant;

“Secondly, this change is going to require new tactics and those tactics include things like using ballista and catapults to destroy arrow carts.”

Is he not telling you there- in a very polite, very politically correct, very adult fashion – to adapt to this change? TO ‘learn new tricks"? Sure looks like it to me. Sure looks like they think the arrow cart damage isn’t the deal breaker you think it is, either.

TL;DR: Arenanet is looking at reducing arrow cart range and making them less effective against other siege weapons, but players themselves have to learn (and I quote again) “…new tactics and those tactics include things like using ballista and catapults to destroy arrow carts.”.

It’s like we aren’t even reading the same post.

VOLKON.1290:

Are you completely sure about that?

The arrow cart is intended to be the anti-personal siege weapon. It is intended that arrow carts are all about controlling an area through damage. If you remain in the area that is being hit by the arrow cart, you will die.

Yes, I’m completely, 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt, proof-positive that my opinion is that AC dmg to siege is too high, and Anet agrees.

DevonCarver.5370:
That being said, they are not intended to be so good against other siege weapons and we are in the process of addressing that right now.

Hickeroar.9734:

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Tearofsoul.9843:

The funny thing is NO ONE was complaining about AC pre-patch, I mean NO ONE.

So please, if it is working, DON’T try to “fix” it

I did.

They were way to weak.

There is something wrong when I can stand in them and not die and I’m just using the AOE field to get my adrenaline up so my earthshaker would be ready for the push.

I can stand in the middle of an ele’s meteor shower and not die. Let’s buff that. Oh, and I can take a treb shot to the face and not die. And you can smack my character in the face with a sword and I won’t die. I can take a ballista shot to the chest and not die. I can take several zerker thief heartseekers in a row and not die. For that matter I can take pretty much any attack by any class using any weapon in the whole game and not be killed.

Better just buff everything!

It doesn’t matter that you couldn’t instantly die standing in AC fire. It’s fun/playability that I’m worried about. Realism doesn’t even enter in the equation, and it shouldn’t.

They were BALANCED before. Now they’re heavily unbalanced.

All sieges should be buffed to hit much harder. You should not be able to stand right back up after getting hit with a cat or treb boulder hitting you.

A elementalist had a chance at killing me. At least they could do some damage to me that made it important to get out of the AOE.

You should not be able to stand in AOE and just laugh at it. What is the point of AOE if it doesn’t hurt or make you consider that the spot you are standing in is a bad place.

brandon.6735:

And here is why we need a public test server to test stuff out with the community. You guys always seem to put stuff out that is very weird and questionable in every patch and most of the time revert it back.

OMG THIS x1,000!!!!

Why fix something that ain’t broken? Why mess with siege numbers while they were fine (little damage boost to trebs wouldn’t have been that bad). Why you want to change our tactics that were working and force us into a completely different gamestyle.

We don’t want to build a quazillion ballistas and catapults to take down a few ACs that get rebuild in seconds.

I am serious, if you don’t revert the AC damage you will lose all the top guilds and serious players. You have no idea how lucky you are that there ain’t an alternative to this game. We have been discussing other games in my guild and I am sure other guilds have too.

Don’t change WvW in nubwars, to many games died because develeports favoured the new or bad players.

ps.: have fun watching the treb animation

Hickeroar.9734:

VOLKON.1290:

Hickeroar.9734:

FractalChaos.6539:

Heijincks.9267:

Actually, they aren’t as big as a problem as you say they are. I’ve seen open field arrow carts built all the time post-patch too, both on my own side and the enemy side. We’ve managed to destroy theirs, and they managed to destroy ours suffering minimal losses. All you need is to be able to do is to flank. An arrow cart can’t cover all spaces at once.

Prepare for answers like “We never used to have to flank before; why do we have to start now?” and of course, the hilarious “You obviously don’t know what you’re talking about. When two zergs meet whoever drops the first AC wins”, spouted in this very thread 2-3 pages back.

Hilarious I tell you.

Deciding to flank while already engaged in head-to-head combat is a risky prospect under the BEST of circumstances. You are a classic armchair quarterback…

What happens if you ARE flanking at the time? What happens if a flank is impossible because of the terrain? There are a nearly unlimited list of reasons why what you’re suggesting is impractical or impossible in the vast majority of cases.

This may sound odd, but you remind me of the British trying to fight the Minutemen back in the Revolutionary War. It sounds like you’re looking for nice, neat organized combat and upset that the Minutemen are using guerrilla tactics against you.

Yes, ACs hit hard enough now that they can have an impact on a battle. If you let them.

“One mark of a great soldier is that he fight on his own terms or fights not at all.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War

Ironic that you should quote the art of war while most thoroughly misunderstanding it…

Terrain, for instance, makes up about half of the Art of War. If it was as simple as FLANK FLANK FLANK, it would be one thing…but you’re suggesting a blanket tactic that is downright idiotic in the majority of cases.

Also, the idea Sun Tzu et al supports is that you never fight unless you absolutely have to, and then only when you know you’re going to win “without a doubt.” That’s a great thing in real life. It’s also a really really boring way to play a game.

There are LOTS of things in the Art of War that can be applied to WvW when it comes to actually being in combat. If you want to follow all of it to a T, you’re going to end up with three zergs on the map, holed up in keeps and towers, making faces at each other.

Ironically I find ironic your line with the word ironic in it. I never suggested a blanket tactic, simply gave an example of one that worked in a specific situation with contingencies.

What’s interesting is that you’re conceding battles where you see arrow carts involved. Your competitive servers should take notice and use that against you.

Silas.8630:

VOLKON.1290:

Are you completely sure about that?

The arrow cart is intended to be the anti-personal siege weapon. It is intended that arrow carts are all about controlling an area through damage. If you remain in the area that is being hit by the arrow cart, you will die.

Yes, I’m completely 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt proof positive that my opinion is that AC dmg to siege is too high, and Anet agrees.

DevonCarver.5370:
That being said, they are not intended to be so good against other siege weapons and we are in the process of addressing that right now.

ANet agrees… that it’s too high against other siege equipment. I don’t seem to see anything referring to it being too high against people however… do you? Did I miss that part? Dang these old eyes… Dang them straight to heck!

All sieges should be buffed to hit much harder. You should not be able to stand right back up after getting hit with a cat or treb boulder hitting you.

Yeah when you get hit by a catapult or treb you should pass out and get a black screen for 15 minutes.

Silver.9084:

All sieges should be buffed to hit much harder. You should not be able to stand right back up after getting hit with a cat or treb boulder hitting you.

Yeah when you get hit by a catapult or treb you should pass out and get a black screen for 15 minutes.

A ballista should impale you and stick you to whatever is behind you. And it would give you a special skill called, Remove bolt from chest, 2s. Now that would be cool.

Hickeroar.9734:

FractalChaos.6539:

Heijincks.9267:

Actually, they aren’t as big as a problem as you say they are. I’ve seen open field arrow carts built all the time post-patch too, both on my own side and the enemy side. We’ve managed to destroy theirs, and they managed to destroy ours suffering minimal losses. All you need is to be able to do is to flank. An arrow cart can’t cover all spaces at once.

Prepare for answers like “We never used to have to flank before; why do we have to start now?” and of course, the hilarious “You obviously don’t know what you’re talking about. When two zergs meet whoever drops the first AC wins”, spouted in this very thread 2-3 pages back.

Hilarious I tell you.

Deciding to flank while already engaged in head-to-head combat is a risky prospect under the BEST of circumstances. You are a classic armchair quarterback…

What happens if you ARE flanking at the time? What happens if a flank is impossible because of the terrain? There are a nearly unlimited list of reasons why what you’re suggesting is impractical or impossible in the vast majority of cases.

There’s no “armchair” about it; I’ve done it in the game. Others have stated in this thread that they have done it in the game too; ergo, it is proven to work. It’s not foolproof (nothing is) but it works. Adapt.

What would I do if the terrain didn’t let me flank? I’d fall back, bait the enemy into a place where I COULD flank them, kill them, and then move on while they all ran back from their spawn. That works too; I know, I’ve fallen for it before. There’s no part of the map so restrictive that you can’t go through or around another force for very long…

It looks to me like you freeze when presented with a simple deviation from the norm. “Oh kitten, they dropped arrow carts and we can’t flank them. Push in!!”

No wonder ACs give you such fits.

Silver.9084:

All sieges should be buffed to hit much harder. You should not be able to stand right back up after getting hit with a cat or treb boulder hitting you.

Yeah when you get hit by a catapult or treb you should pass out and get a black screen for 15 minutes.

They could even have an NPC physician that clears you to make sure you didn’t sustain an in-game concussion.

If you don’t pass the physical, they make you sit out until you can be cleared to play.

Silver.9084:

All sieges should be buffed to hit much harder. You should not be able to stand right back up after getting hit with a cat or treb boulder hitting you.

If you make siege very strong what’s the point of even having character skills or bothering to level to 80. That’s not fun. That’s also a lot less dynamic and far more simplified combat vs more player vs player oriented combat. Sorry but I don’t want to play a run supplies and then push 1 to win game.

FractalChaos.6539:

Hickeroar.9734:

FractalChaos.6539:

Heijincks.9267:

Actually, they aren’t as big as a problem as you say they are. I’ve seen open field arrow carts built all the time post-patch too, both on my own side and the enemy side. We’ve managed to destroy theirs, and they managed to destroy ours suffering minimal losses. All you need is to be able to do is to flank. An arrow cart can’t cover all spaces at once.

Prepare for answers like “We never used to have to flank before; why do we have to start now?” and of course, the hilarious “You obviously don’t know what you’re talking about. When two zergs meet whoever drops the first AC wins”, spouted in this very thread 2-3 pages back.

Hilarious I tell you.

Deciding to flank while already engaged in head-to-head combat is a risky prospect under the BEST of circumstances. You are a classic armchair quarterback…

What happens if you ARE flanking at the time? What happens if a flank is impossible because of the terrain? There are a nearly unlimited list of reasons why what you’re suggesting is impractical or impossible in the vast majority of cases.

There’s no “armchair” about it; I’ve done it in the game. Others have stated in this thread that they have done it in the game too; ergo, it is proven to work. It’s not foolproof (nothing is) but it works. Adapt.

What would I do if the terrain didn’t let me flank? I’d fall back, bait the enemy into a place where I COULD flank them, kill them, and then move on while they all ran back from their spawn. That works too; I know, I’ve fallen for it before. There’s no part of the map so restrictive that you can’t go through or around another force for very long…

It looks to me like you freeze when presented with a simple deviation from the norm. “Oh kitten, they dropped arrow carts and we can’t flank them. Push in!!”

No wonder ACs give you such fits.

I think you need your posting privileges revoked until you hold true on your promise to prove your invulnerability to 8 arrow carts. Let’s see those videos! More than anything, this claim made me realize you’re just a bona-fide troll…

Silas.8630:

FractalChaos.6539:

I agree there’s a problem; 3 or 4 times already in this thread I’ve stated that my vote goes to making siege weapons invulnerable to AC fire (no more killing rams, catas, or even Golems with ACs) and rolling back the damage from its current 80% to 50%.

So most of the complaining in this tread is centered around the AC dmg dealt to siege,

WHAT??? HAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!

No it’s not. Most of the whining in this thread is about how ACs have ruined open field PvP and about how it’s now impossible to attack an objective without being slaughtered by overpowered arrow carts. I’ve seen some people kittening about how their rams and golems are being melted, but clearly not the majority.

Aberrant.6749:

brandon.6735:

And here is why we need a public test server to test stuff out with the community. You guys always seem to put stuff out that is very weird and questionable in every patch and most of the time revert it back.

OMG THIS x1,000!!!!

Totally agree. GW2 is so much more complicated than GW1 was. A dedicated test server that you can’t transfer to/from open to everyone would make these updates so much better. I really miss that from EQ2 (although I know other games do that as well). The small handful of internal testers for GW2 isn’t enough IMO.

FractalChaos.6539:

Silas.8630:

FractalChaos.6539:

I agree there’s a problem; 3 or 4 times already in this thread I’ve stated that my vote goes to making siege weapons invulnerable to AC fire (no more killing rams, catas, or even Golems with ACs) and rolling back the damage from its current 80% to 50%.

So most of the complaining in this tread is centered around the AC dmg dealt to siege,

WHAT??? HAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!

No it’s not. Most of the whining in this thread is about how ACs have ruined open field PvP and about how it’s now impossible to attack an objective without being slaughtered by overpowered arrow carts. I’ve seen some people kittening about how their rams and golems are being melted, but clearly not the majority.

The topic has shifted, but the two things that need to be addressed are 1) general (open field, etc) combat, and 2) the fact that putting up rams against a tower, or getting in a golem, are both nearly pointless now.

I really don’t even mind that ACs might kill players easier if they’re inside a tower shooting OUTward. But in the middle of a field? ACs have no place playing a big role in a field-fight. And having a ram wiped in seconds by ACs? That’s just stupid. At least if the ram was tough the players could rotate out….but as it stands there’s no point. You use a treb….and an arrow cart. Those are pretty much the only things that matter anymore.

MiLkZz.4789:

Why fix something that ain’t broken? Why mess with siege numbers while they were fine (little damage boost to trebs wouldn’t have been that bad). Why you want to change our tactics that were working and force us into a completely different gamestyle.

We don’t want to build a quazillion ballistas and catapults to take down a few ACs that get rebuild in seconds.

I am serious, if you don’t revert the AC damage you will lose all the top guilds and serious players. You have no idea how lucky you are that there ain’t an alternative to this game. We have been discussing other games in my guild and I am sure other guilds have too.

Don’t change WvW in nubwars, to many games died because develeports favoured the new or bad players.

ps.: have fun watching the treb animation

No one would describe your post as “diplomatic”, but you’re right on. I remember that last State of the Game video the AN guys did and this one interviewer asking them about the possibility of a separate UI controller for pets, and their answer was that it wouldn’t happen because it would be too difficult for new players. I suspect that typifies their general thinking on and direction with the game: they want to simplify it as much as they can so that new players, in their fickle thousands, won’t get frustrated and give up in the first week. I wouldn’t be surprised if that kind of thinking was behind some of the most recent patch changes, which – coincidentally? – came very soon after their first free weekend.

Don’t get me wrong, I still like the game enough to keep playing, so kudos to AN for currently having the best thing going in MMO’s, at least for people who like to pvp. But here’s hoping that Camelot Unchained sees an unusually fast development.

The AC changes force you to adopt new strategies. You can’t just roll your zerg up to the front gates now, drop a few sup rams, and expect to take a keep/tower. Give it some time and people will come up with new ways to deal with AC’s and things will be fine (plus it sounds like Anet is already addressing the issue of AC damage against other siege, which is really the only thing broken about it right now).

VOLKON.1290:

Silas.8630:

VOLKON.1290:

Are you completely sure about that?

The arrow cart is intended to be the anti-personal siege weapon. It is intended that arrow carts are all about controlling an area through damage. If you remain in the area that is being hit by the arrow cart, you will die.

Yes, I’m completely 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt proof positive that my opinion is that AC dmg to siege is too high, and Anet agrees.

DevonCarver.5370:
That being said, they are not intended to be so good against other siege weapons and we are in the process of addressing that right now.

ANet agrees… that it’s too high against other siege equipment. I don’t seem to see anything referring to it being too high against people however… do you? Did I miss that part? Dang these old eyes… Dang them straight to heck!

Why don’t you take those old eyes and go back through my post to find the part where I said AC dmg was too high against other players. (Hint: it’s not there.)

Harrish.8743:

The AC changes force you to adopt new strategies. You can’t just roll your zerg up to the front gates now, drop a few sup rams, and expect to take a keep/tower. Give it some time and people will come up with new ways to deal with AC’s and things will be fine.

You should fix your statement to say simply “You can’t roll up to a gate with a force of any size and expect to use rams to take it.”

Silas.8630:

VOLKON.1290:

Silas.8630:

VOLKON.1290:

Are you completely sure about that?

The arrow cart is intended to be the anti-personal siege weapon. It is intended that arrow carts are all about controlling an area through damage. If you remain in the area that is being hit by the arrow cart, you will die.

Yes, I’m completely 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt proof positive that my opinion is that AC dmg to siege is too high, and Anet agrees.

DevonCarver.5370:
That being said, they are not intended to be so good against other siege weapons and we are in the process of addressing that right now.

ANet agrees… that it’s too high against other siege equipment. I don’t seem to see anything referring to it being too high against people however… do you? Did I miss that part? Dang these old eyes… Dang them straight to heck!

Why don’t you take those old eyes and go back through my post to find the part where I said AC dmg was too high against other players. (Hint: it’s not there.)

Well then what are you going on about? Looks like were more in agreement than not.

FractalChaos.6539:

Silas.8630:

FractalChaos.6539:

I agree there’s a problem; 3 or 4 times already in this thread I’ve stated that my vote goes to making siege weapons invulnerable to AC fire (no more killing rams, catas, or even Golems with ACs) and rolling back the damage from its current 80% to 50%.

So most of the complaining in this tread is centered around the AC dmg dealt to siege,

WHAT??? HAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!

No it’s not. Most of the whining in this thread is about how ACs have ruined open field PvP and about how it’s now impossible to attack an objective without being slaughtered by overpowered arrow carts. I’ve seen some people kittening about how their rams and golems are being melted, but clearly not the majority.

You clearly lack the ability to extrapolate an argument. The reason people think the AC buff has ruined open field combat, is largely because it makes objective sieges take far too long due to the inability to use siege within range of the wall. This leads to sieges consisting of hours of standing around while trebs fire without any actual player-on-player combat. In short, the damage ACs are doing to siege is what led to protracted sieges without open field fighting.