Guild Wars 2

The thing is, THE ONLY way to take down walls/gates is using trebs now. And it is soooo boring because it takes hours and you get counter-treb’d (projectiles can’t be blocked anymore too). So you’re stuck trebbing all day without having a single fight!

I thought PvP was “player vs player”, as in characters fighting each other and having fun, not TvT (treb vs treb)

So basically, arrowcarts ARE in fact anti-fun to the majority of the players.
Arrowcarts were strong to begin with, and if they needed anything before, it was a nerf not a buff!

Kript.3291:

TallDan.6350:

Kebab.4013:

Dawdler.8521:

morrolan.9608:

I take it you don’t play on a T1 server then.

Has it ever occured to anyone… That if T1 servers cant adapt to the new arrowcarts, they dont deserve to be in T1 and will inevitably drop?

Yes let tier 1 drop and let the people who desire stagnant and borring fighting step forward.

That will keep the game alive.

ps. it doesn’t.

fix the arrowcarts.

Being encouraged to use intelligence and tactical thinking is boring but standing in front of a gate pressing 1 in a big blob, then running into the lord room and pressing 1 then running to the next tower pressing 1 is fun.

Plz nrf arrw crtz

if you think zerging is just mashing 1 and running around, you are just a bad player and you are doing it wrong. i hope you are not a commander on your server, if you are i feel sorry for those militia you are leading.

just notice that you are from ET, lol no wonder….

Nope I don’t run in zergs very often but prefer covert ops and the zergs who do it properly shouldn’t have any issue with the AC buff it’s the mindless blob I was talking about not large organized groups.

Do you know anything about how WvW works ET have a very good player base we just have a low WvW pop and terrible coverage. I was born in tier 8 and you assume we all suck because we don’t have many players? most of the time we are fighting against a larger force and we have to be good to score any points.

T8 is fantastic fun and we never have to que for anything, I can login and go straight to any BL I want :p

On opening night when EB is full the queue time is still tiny and all the BL are available while I wait a few mins to join.

So yeah throw all the mud at me you want but It seems like I’m having a lot more fun than you are so I don’t care.

Kript.3291:

First, you don’t want to replace a bad meta with a worse meta. Yes, zerging is bad, it’s stale, but bunker down in tower and let the arrow carts replacing the zerg is even a worse idea. I don’t see mashing 1,2,3, is any better than zerg vs zerg.

Very good post and I fully agree. However one thing you fail to mention is the fact it has not just added a worse meta, but pretty much killed off small guilds/groups having an impact on the battle.

I personally run in a small group, at the moment only 10-15 of us and we would frequently attack enemy towers quickly through the use of superior rams. This would assist our main force who were elsewhere on the map by making the opposition either choose which point on the map they defend or splitting their force up to defend both. With the arrow cart upgrades this is effectively impossible for us now because as little as 2 people on arrow carts inside the tower are able to deal a tonne of damage on both us and the rams – it was possible to destroy these with regular arrow carts and aoe if you took too long to build, but now they will often be destroyed by upgraded arrow carts before you’ve even had a chance to fully dump your supply on them.

So whilst it has introduced a terrible ‘bunker’ meta, it is still encouraging people to increase the size of their group and basically create the largest zerg they possibly can. ANet need to come out and basically hold their hands up here, admit they have not fully looked into the impact this upgrade to arrow carts would have and revert this change asap. By all means re-think it and introduce some sort of arrow cart ability line later on, but this is quite literally killing off the WvW game for people who were already struggling to find reason to continue with it in its current state.

People say its anti zerg……its not.

Its anti anyone. A few arrowcarts can stop a zerg now, ok. But that just makes it impossible for non-zerg to take anything.

It also stops things like keeps ever swapping hands unless they are totally undefended. I’d love to see someone try to take a defended t3 hills now…..

There are better ways to decrease zerg dominance.

I suppose the previous meta wasn’t what Anet wanted WvW to be. For example, let’s take guild ownership.

The objectives get flipped so fast in the former meta that there’s literally no point in making one for your guild. If they buff siege up to the point that it’s impossible to quickly take an objective, and make each objective a fortress, then might there be some point in doing so.

In other words, it probably wasn’t Anet’s vision for fast flips. The previous meta was not what they wanted. They probably want WvW to be more like drawn out, perpetual warfare with more meaningful objectives. Yes, that probably will mean WvW will stagnate. That said, the new meta will separate the good commanders from the bad ones since tactics are forced. Also, having few defenders being able to hold off large numbers also depromotes nightcapping.

It’ll interesting to see how this will turn out. Right now it’s simply a matter of waiting for everyone to adjust, or waiting for those who are unwilling to adjust leave. I’m guessing that in the near future, objectives will be valuable enough that people won’t just go do something like “Drain all supplies from X and move to Y”.

Caliban.3176:

Tallis.5607:

People that complain about the ACs are probably just zergling that want to curl up in a 80-man group, take a map and move on to the next map.

Look at who you are talking about:
RG, VcY, Agg, Riot, MERC, VoTF, sIN, DsD, IRON

Hard to call these guilds zerglings that want to curl up in an 80 man group. (Some might have the numbers for that and still usually chose not to e.g. IRON)

I know for a fact that members of big WvW Guilds from Elona’s reach like Anima Immortalis, Aegis, GD, Equinox, Galleon and many more are thinking the same about this joke of a patch. I would bet that our German friends from Kodash like KOA, fx or BOTS are thinking the same.

And to everyone who thinks this will improve the problem with nightcapping: It won’t. Quite the opposite it will be much more worse then before. Because now you have to deal with strongholds that have all upgrades AND insane gamecrushing Arrow cards.

Heijincks.9267:

I suppose the previous meta wasn’t what Anet wanted WvW to be. For example, let’s take guild ownership.

The objectives get flipped so fast in the former meta that there’s literally no point in making one for your guild. If they buff siege up to the point that it’s impossible to quickly take an objective, and make each objective a fortress, then might there be some point in doing so.

In other words, it probably wasn’t Anet’s vision for fast flips. The previous meta was not what they wanted. They probably want WvW to be more like drawn out, perpetual warfare with more meaningful objectives. Yes, that probably will mean WvW will stagnate. That said, the new meta will separate the good commanders from the bad ones since tactics are forced. Also, having few defenders being able to hold off large numbers also depromotes nightcapping.

It’ll interesting to see how this will turn out. Right now it’s simply a matter of waiting for everyone to adjust, or waiting for those who are unwilling to adjust leave. I’m guessing that in the near future, objectives will be valuable enough that people won’t just go do something like “Drain all supplies from X and move to Y”.

You make a huge mistake in your post, nothing needed to be buffed to make it hardly impossible to flip. As said by many people already a good defence could hold off huge forces already. Just look at the video by Agg or read many testimonies of this happening. And it was ok if you attacked something like this and could not break through completely. Because in these defences there would be fights and there would be skill and tactic checks between both groups. It required some effort from the defending team, as it should.

TyrDaishi.1057:

Caliban.3176:

Tallis.5607:

People that complain about the ACs are probably just zergling that want to curl up in a 80-man group, take a map and move on to the next map.

Look at who you are talking about:
RG, VcY, Agg, Riot, MERC, VoTF, sIN, DsD, IRON

Hard to call these guilds zerglings that want to curl up in an 80 man group. (Some might have the numbers for that and still usually chose not to e.g. IRON)

I know for a fact that members of big WvW Guilds from Elona’s reach like Anima Immortalis, Aegis, GD, Equinox, Galleon and many more are thinking the same about this joke of a patch. I would bet that our German friends from Kodash like KOA, fx or BOTS are thinking the same.

That is great and I encourage them to all voice there concerns in here because apparently those opposing the patch are now being labeled as a vocal minority.

Heijincks.9267:

I suppose the previous meta wasn’t what Anet wanted WvW to be. For example, let’s take guild ownership.

The objectives get flipped so fast in the former meta that there’s literally no point in making one for your guild. If they buff siege up to the point that it’s impossible to quickly take an objective, and make each objective a fortress, then might there be some point in doing so.

In other words, it probably wasn’t Anet’s vision for fast flips. The previous meta was not what they wanted. They probably want WvW to be more like drawn out, perpetual warfare with more meaningful objectives. Yes, that probably will mean WvW will stagnate. That said, the new meta will separate the good commanders from the bad ones since tactics are forced. Also, having few defenders being able to hold off large numbers also depromotes nightcapping.

It’ll interesting to see how this will turn out. Right now it’s simply a matter of waiting for everyone to adjust, or waiting for those who are unwilling to adjust leave.

you already need a good strategyto deal with them pre-patch if your enemies have placed 4 superior ACs behind the gate or aiming at important choke point, and that strategical thinking is required for both sides. For defender, you still have to think a way of making a push to break up the enemies line. ( usually using portal to transport a portion of defenders to go behind enemy zerg and sandwich them. For attacker, you will need good timing and support from guardians or eles to charge into those flying arrows and take down the carts.

with the new patch. you don’t need strategy now, for defenders all you need are drones that knows how to press 123.

For attackers either you stop trying or to build treb, and watching your enemies building counter trebs but you cannot get close to get rid of the trebs because they are surrounded by more arrow carts.

this will just make the current meta even more stale and boring.

The problem of zerg is not that the arrow carts are too weak, it’s because the current game mode does not encourage small skirmishes. There’s no incentive for small group play.

The porblem of pvdoor is not that the arrow carts are too weak, it’s because of anet’s inability to find a solution for server/time zone imbalance.

buffing up the arrow cart to the current level ( seriously, 80%? why don’t you just give defender a skill that one hits everyone? ) is just a bandaid fix, and one of the worst one.

Heijincks.9267:

I suppose the previous meta wasn’t what Anet wanted WvW to be. For example, let’s take guild ownership.

The objectives get flipped so fast in the former meta that there’s literally no point in making one for your guild. If they buff siege up to the point that it’s impossible to quickly take an objective, and make each objective a fortress, then might there be some point in doing so.

In other words, it probably wasn’t Anet’s vision for fast flips. The previous meta was not what they wanted. They probably want WvW to be more like drawn out, perpetual warfare with more meaningful objectives. Yes, that probably will mean WvW will stagnate. That said, the new meta will separate the good commanders from the bad ones since tactics are forced. Also, having few defenders being able to hold off large numbers also depromotes nightcapping.

It’ll interesting to see how this will turn out. Right now it’s simply a matter of waiting for everyone to adjust, or waiting for those who are unwilling to adjust leave. I’m guessing that in the near future, objectives will be valuable enough that people won’t just go do something like “Drain all supplies from X and move to Y”.

This^

He/she gets it. I’m tired of being steamrolled under-foot because some sea-guild nightcaps consistantly night after night in the instances when our “big guns” aren’t around to save us. I’m tired of being just an inevitable smear on the ground in some mobs karma-train. Then having my carcass “bagged” and laughed at in the lord’s room I so desperately tried to defend. Like I was the one whose efforts were pointless, and you cowards can’t take me on in equal terms. There’s no good fight or any measure of respectable PvP in a 4v30+, so that argument is totally moot. We also certainly didn’t get respected for our efforts in trying either.

Defending is actually worthwhile now for those of us who don’t want to participate in your mouth-frothing zergball karma-trains. Someone asks “U mad?” you’re kitten’ing right I’m mad. I do NOT want to get thrown back into just plain ol’ more of the same. Is 80% dmg increase too much? Maybe. We could probably compromise and settle for 50%, but I do not want to step backward to the time when zergs reigned.

Lol did Arenanet not intend fast caps? I’m sorry, why haven’t they implemented this fix let us say… 8 months ago? Ofcourse they are counting on keeps flipping. The maps are too small and the game to casual for any “real” siege warfare.

They only did it to fix the zergwhining issues, nothing more. Unfortunately they did so without thinking of the consequences.

Let’s think shall we?

What is funniest:
Fighting a wall and siege, or fighting actual players with abilities? – I think we all know the answer.

Which of the options are the changes leading the game towards? – I think we all know the answer.

The worst part is that this is, for once, an actual slippery slope. The more arrowcarts, the less people will be needed and do not want to come, the less people that wants to come to wvwvw decreases, etc. etc. Keeping a somewhat healthy population in world vs world is key to its survival. This injection of arrowcart buffing has the ability to possible make things irreversable within a couple of weeks.

I mean.. Mention me one other game, where after 8 months of no change what so ever, suddenly a major part of the game is increased by way more than 100% effectiveness. After 8 months of meta gaming and working out strategies etc, how the heck do you honestly think that this could be a healthy journey to depart upon?

My my… I knew the intelligence and foresight level is low on forums, but I had kinda hoped for developers to at least consider it twice before implementing.

I’m pretty sure me and my guild, VoTF, have played GW2 more than the developers and above the normal average, + having over a decades experience with this kinda pvp in a myriad of other games to realize that this is something that breaks a game.

Kraag Deadsoul.2789:

1) Zerg builds catapults out of range of arrow cart fire to bring down the wall. SMART.

2) Zerg keeps its members in check, stopping them from approaching the wall prior to breaching, thus keeping them out of arrow cart range. SMART.

3) Zerg masses around its catapult(s) to keep them safe from counter-attack. SMART.

4) Zerg fails to destroy the defenders’ arrow carts with treb fire (there’s a reason Swirling Winds was nerfed). DUMB.

5) Wall breach occurs and zerg trusts to human wave tactics against defenders who possess superior fire power and hold the high ground. DUMB.

Also, it’s not one player wiping the zerg. There are multiple arrow carts in that tower firing at the breach. That zerg would have won if they had built a single treb to take out those arrow carts. They didn’t. They wiped. Time to change tactics. Adapt or die.

Listen to yourself. You’re calling everything involving use of siege smart, and anything involving players actually trying to achieve something themselves – without siege weaponry – dumb.

Do you think WvW is supposed to revolve entirely around the use of siege, and that players builds, abilities and so forth are supposed to be used only as tools to carry supply and finally stand in a circle to capture a keep after siege has done all the work? I was under the evidently false impression that siege was supposed to be a sideshow in WvW, not the main event.

This new McM patch is just stupid.

Ram are useless now, 1 or 2 AC will get them down, doesn’t matter how many you are, ram will get down , given they’re is 1 or 2 people inside.

Same goes for Golem, if you have less than15 of them they’ll get down extra quick and not even open 1 door.

So, that let us with 2 option :
-15+ golem everytime you want to attack
-Dozens of treb, taking hours downing T3 wall, without any fight, just build & destroy & rebuild & redestroy.

Anet, what the kitten did you think when you choose to make those change ? Plz explain.

So when do they fix this mess they created?

Oh noes, karma trains can be now stopped easier?!

Muahaha

Fortifications and siege are to be…. besieged! Finally there is reason to use trebs or at least catas, not just rush everything.

/delete Gw2

/install ArrowCarts+PugsWar2

Why ANet hate guilds?

LunarNacht.8913:

So when do they fix this mess they created?

the saddest thing is i don’t think they are going to…

take at look at the way they handle the current EU T1 crisis, or the current meta.
did they do anything the balance out server imbalance?
did they do anything to encourage smaller skirmishes or provide more incentive for small group-play?
did they address the server lag issue that a lot of people are experiencing?

nope, we got this ridiculous ACs buff and some useless wvw trait line ( against enemy guards and mercs? as if they are not squishy or useless enough), the only productive things they did for the past 8 months was the culling fix, buffing up badges drop rate, and allow us to use badges to trade gear with more stats combo.

it’s very sad really, wvw was a major selling point for this game, but i don’t see devs trying hard enough to improve its quality.

Its funny that people are still saying that people are complaining because there karma/Wxp train stopped.

None of the guilds that are posting here care a single kitten about karma, its useless, most of us got hundreds of thousands karma that we wont use. And the only ones caring about Wxp are the people on arrow carts so they can get more ranks into arrow cart mastery.

Not to mention, Wxp is faster to get in open field fight rather then flipping a tower/keep. Alot more fun too.

Caliban.3176:

TyrDaishi.1057:

Caliban.3176:

Tallis.5607:

People that complain about the ACs are probably just zergling that want to curl up in a 80-man group, take a map and move on to the next map.

Look at who you are talking about:
RG, VcY, Agg, Riot, MERC, VoTF, sIN, DsD, IRON

Hard to call these guilds zerglings that want to curl up in an 80 man group. (Some might have the numbers for that and still usually chose not to e.g. IRON)

I know for a fact that members of big WvW Guilds from Elona’s reach like Anima Immortalis, Aegis, GD, Equinox, Galleon and many more are thinking the same about this joke of a patch. I would bet that our German friends from Kodash like KOA, fx or BOTS are thinking the same.

That is great and I encourage them to all voice there concerns in here because apparently those opposing the patch are now being labeled as a vocal minority.

I guess you are correct, I wasn’t specific enough.

I’m a Officer from Aegis, I’m leading public, as well as guild raids and I would like to express my personal concerns about the changes that where made in Guild Wars 2’s WvWvW and the direction the gamemode is taking. Starting with the early changes that crippled coregamers by restricting AOE Damage and Heals on 5 targets, ending with the last patch that is a bad joke and obvious laugh in the face of the WvW community.

WvW is NOT a PVE-Mode. WvW is (still my opinion) not meant to be for casual gamers as the developers and a minority in this forum and in the game wish it to be.

WvW has a HUGE Community that evolves solely on WvW and pretty much everyone there wants WvW to be what it is meant to be: The best looking RvR to this point in time, giving us the possibility to create a huge variety of tactics and strategys, especially if you play as part of a guild. So for our dear WvW developers: Stop ignoring the community already and start to make sense.

I hope for starters that is all the encouragement you need Caliban.

Ac’s were powerfull enough as they were,no explanation needed..Nobody asked for this buff,nobody suggested it,I have seen dozens of Great suggestions made by players and totally overlooked by the anet dev team.Instead they Buff ac’s ,its imo one of the dumbest things they have done so far.This page reaching 22 pages now must be an eye opener for them that theyre doing something wrong…

Also,those back banners,are you guys just messing with warriors now or what ? Warriors have been asking for banners to be on their back for Months,since its a hassle to be carrying around most of the times.Instead,you add a worthless Guildbanner just to slap those warriors in the face.. ? Am i seeing this wrong.. ?

TyrDaishi.1057:

Caliban.3176:

TyrDaishi.1057:

Caliban.3176:

Tallis.5607:

People that complain about the ACs are probably just zergling that want to curl up in a 80-man group, take a map and move on to the next map.

Look at who you are talking about:
RG, VcY, Agg, Riot, MERC, VoTF, sIN, DsD, IRON

Hard to call these guilds zerglings that want to curl up in an 80 man group. (Some might have the numbers for that and still usually chose not to e.g. IRON)

I know for a fact that members of big WvW Guilds from Elona’s reach like Anima Immortalis, Aegis, GD, Equinox, Galleon and many more are thinking the same about this joke of a patch. I would bet that our German friends from Kodash like KOA, fx or BOTS are thinking the same.

That is great and I encourage them to all voice there concerns in here because apparently those opposing the patch are now being labeled as a vocal minority.

I guess you are correct, I wasn’t specific enough.

I’m a Officer from Aegis, I’m leading public, as well as guild raids and I would like to express my personal concerns about the changes that where made in Guild Wars 2’s WvWvW and the direction the gamemode is taking. Starting with the early changes that crippled coregamers by restricting AOE Damage and Heals on 5 targets, ending with the last patch that is a bad joke and obvious laugh in the face of the WvW community.

WvW is NOT a PVE-Mode. WvW is (still my opinion) not meant to be for casual gamers as the developers and a minority in this forum and in the game wish it to be.

WvW has a HUGE Community that evolves solely on WvW and pretty much everyone there wants WvW to be what it is meant to be: The best looking RvR to this point in time, giving us the possibility to create a huge variety of tactics and strategys, especially if you play as part of a guild. So for our dear WvW developers: Stop ignoring the community already and start to make sense.

I hope for starters that is all the encouragement you need Caliban.

Thank you, every little thing helps (at least I hope it does).

I wonder how long it’ll take until we get any sort of response but I’m starting to think that if they haven’t after 22 pages that they won’t do it any time soon. I guess the decreased queue times and the obvious decrease in people logging on might show them something is up.

ThomasKreshant.6572:

I asked for it

Buff stacking groups attacking a tower when your out manned basically ignored arrow carts damage completely.

A fully upgraded tower should be defensible with small amounts of people vs a group otherwise what’s the point of having towers and keeps, might as well just have open group way points to cap which I’d find dull tbh

at the same time though now its just people capping a tower during low times placing 2-4 superior arrowcarts in extremely hard to hit/not hittable at all and waiting for the 5pm zerg train to roll in so they can get bags in the end yes this destroys zergs but yes youl never lose that tower to a non-zerg either

I ran my overly squishy thief in WvW for several hours last night and I did not die to a single arrow cart the entire time. The zerg I ran with capped several towers in EB per the usual and kept enemy supply camps flipped to starve them. I witnessed a few folks getting ripped apart but those were the ones that just stood in the line of fire and did not dodge. Several times we had to abandon a siege and move off to draw out overzealous defenders by attacking a different objective and then going back to take the tower.
We even went so far as to split our forces in a false retreat to to make the defenders overly confident and then turned and destroyed them. I also defended our own holdings against overwhelming numbers and saw first hand that the people that can dodge stayed alive and those that didn’t became loot bags for me. I watched the enemy pull back to a safe range and build their own siege forcing us to move to open field to engage them just to protect our siege.

The arrow cart buff is great. It hurts, it makes you think and reason how to take a fortified position. You now have to actually be a strategic commander and be a group member that can take direction. It is actually adding depth to WvW, I saw the beginnings of actual war last night for the first time and I am looking forward to what the developers have in store for us in the future.

ThomasKreshant.6572:

I asked for it

Buff stacking groups attacking a tower when your out manned basically ignored arrow carts damage completely.

A fully upgraded tower should be defensible with small amounts of people vs a group otherwise what’s the point of having towers and keeps, might as well just have open group way points to cap which I’d find dull tbh

Did you ever try defending before the buff?
5 superior AC were already enough. Nobody could ignore that.
But ofc the 5 AC had to assist, that was the bigdeal imo…

Anything that cuts down on blobs derping down gates is a good move.

It’s like some people here have never heard of cats and trebs to get into places…

evildan.8260:

Anything that cuts down on blobs derping down gates is a good move.

It’s like some people here have never heard of cats and trebs to get into places…

There are some people here not knowing what is fun about playing wvwvw…

Caliban.3176:

Kript.3291:

Arrow cart was fine, it does not need any damage buff, and i don’t think it will address the issue of zerging meta, instead, it replace the current zerg meta with a worse one: lazy bunker meta.

pre-patch:

The successful defense of any given structures in wvw relies on the synergy of 3 things:
siege users, defenders on the wall, and ground troops.

You need sieges like arrow cart to provide fire support and limited deterrence.
You need the mobility and other useful profession-related skills of the defenders on the wall. (ex. provide healing+ shield to the siege users, plus addtional AoEs)
You need the ground fources to be ready to move out the make a push.

You need ( or needed now with the new patch) these 3 thing to work co-operatively for a successful defense.

You could not defend a keep with a bunch of eles or rangers standing on wall, they will just get torn apart by all the Necro marks.

You could not defend a keep with sieges alone, they are static, and have slower firing rate.

You could not defend a keep with ground troop alone, with all that AoEs half of them would probably be dead when they exist the gate.

I think the synergy of these three is what makes wvw fun for a lot of us. I remember when i was playing with my ranger, i love standing on the wall and use my under-power longbow attacking those invaders. I know a lvl 5 noob with a arrow cart can probably do better than me when it comes to doing damage, and it’s very risky to stand on the wall when there are 10 eles casting meteors shower at me, nevertheless, it gives the battle a certain ‘flavor’ that can not be replaced by manning on a arrow cart and mashing 1,2,3.

This patch is gonna change that, i think.

Anet has buffed up the damage of arrow carts to the point that all you need to do is to have 5 people bunker down in your precious little keeps and use arrow carts to do all the work for you.

Ground troops? nope, no need to have actual face-to-face zerg clash, no more commander urging the pve militia to ‘stack. buff-up, we are making a push’, they will probably be acting solely as the ’ cleaning-up crews’ from now on: finishing those downed enemies and collecting bags.

Defenders on the wall? no need, arrow carts kill the enemies before you even need to heal the lvl 5 noob that’s been using arrow arts. No profession related skills are required, just mashing 1,2,3.

I know some people would say, ’ it kills zerg !.’ It’s stop people from pvdoor’, ‘it give defender a chance to defend’

First, you don’t want to replace a bad meta with a worse meta. Yes, zerging is bad, it’s stale, but bunker down in tower and let the arrow carts replacing the zerg is even a worse idea. I don’t see mashing 1,2,3, is any better than zerg vs zerg.

As for the pvdoor issue or giving defender a fighting chance when they are out-manned, well, of all the options Anet can do they picked the worst and imbalance, one. They could have make the gate stronger, or they could have make those guards npcs somewhat useful (we have a wvw trait line that specifically design for dealing with NPC, i mean seriously? they don’t go down fast enough?), or how about redesign out-manned buff completely? or find a better way to balance out server population and time zone issues?

if buffing up arrow cart’s is Anet’s attempt to address the wvw issues, then i am truly disappointed. I thought you guys were much more innovative than this…

People still play this game because it’s the only game out there that has ‘decent’ RvR (and now Anet is ruining it), they won’t hesitate to quit when there’s a better game, i think it’s a good thing Camelot Unchained is getting kickstart funded.

This is a perfect post. Glad there are people like you who truly understand WvW.

This!!

In all honesty. The people that enjoyed long out siegefights, shouldn’t they have left now after 8 months?

My mind has exploded. -.-

Kebab.4013:

evildan.8260:

Anything that cuts down on blobs derping down gates is a good move.

It’s like some people here have never heard of cats and trebs to get into places…

There are some people here not knowing what is fun about playing wvwvw…

I like a good siege myself- much more fun than blobbing up and zerging towers in some karma train.

ThomasKreshant.6572:

I asked for it

Buff stacking groups attacking a tower when your out manned basically ignored arrow carts damage completely.

A fully upgraded tower should be defensible with small amounts of people vs a group otherwise what’s the point of having towers and keeps, might as well just have open group way points to cap which I’d find dull tbh

Groups stacking buff in arrowcart range even before the patch were stupid and a very rare sight. A single arrow cart was not ignored before (not even when I was running my tanky Guardian with mace shield that was specced for regen). It was doable, even up to 4 was doable with a little coordination. Really good teams with perfect composition, timing and teamwork might were able to soak up the damage of 6 arrowcarts. But doing that you were very vulnerable for actual attacks. That was the point.

Siege was support and pressure and a limited means of area denial. You were not going to get a lot of kills with a defensive arrowcart on a gate, unless you actually had allies working with you to go out and kill those people.
Arrowcarts had cripple and bleeds, these are perfect for support, it forces people to blow their cooldowns for heals and condiremovals. If you then attack them they would die a lot easier. This encouraged tactical gameplay.

The fact that you were not willing to put the effort into defending before does not mean that it was hard.

I’d also like to talk about the example one person gave about not being able to kill a single person when he was on an arrowcart. The person gave that as an example of arrowcarts not being powerful enough but that is not true. The arrowcarts are there for the pressure they can put on 50 players. If you want 1 or 2 players dead you should just jump out and use your actual weapons.

The pressure arrowcarts put on you before were detrimental, it could destroy any group of players (zerg and guildraid alike) that would regroup at the wrong place, it could keep a lot of players from every breaking combat and regenning to reengage.
Arrowcarts on their own were indeed never strong enough, but that is why you have allies.

The old arrowcarts encouraged tactics and teamplay, these new ones encourage sitting on or behind a wall and pressing 1.

evildan.8260:

Kebab.4013:

evildan.8260:

Anything that cuts down on blobs derping down gates is a good move.

It’s like some people here have never heard of cats and trebs to get into places…

There are some people here not knowing what is fun about playing wvwvw…

I like a good siege myself- much more fun than blobbing up and zerging towers in some karma train.

Again with the blobs and the karmatrain. Point out people here who do that.

What do you consider to not be a zerg or blob? Less than 20? Well those are the people getting hit the hardest by this. Now you need even more people to do something. This is will create more blobs.

In my opinion, none of this is going to get fixed anytime soon. It takes them months or weeks to even get a patch out there that does SOMETHING to WvW, and lately all they’ve done is mess up WvW (in my opinion.) Making it so that rams are useless? -_-‘’’ I wouldn’t mind the fact that eles can’t block treb shots, but then at least make it so that a class like engineers can at least fix the siege? (makes complete nonsense, I know.) I don’t feel like rambling and seeming like I am QQing so I’ll stop. :P

Fellow WvW players, it’s clear that ANet hates WvW, and only cares about what the PvE heros think. ‘Tis the sad truth. :/. I never thought that I would get bored of WvW, but alas, I believe I have. It’s gotten to the point that if you don’t have a big group of players, you might as well not play, unless you want to sit at a tower all day/night on arrow carts, and if an enemy zerg is smart, they won’t even come near the tower, or they will treb the walls and siege inside, making you get facerolled.

I’m hoping they get something done soon to make WvW more enjoyable again… :/

-Gismor

Caliban.3176:

evildan.8260:

Kebab.4013:

evildan.8260:

Anything that cuts down on blobs derping down gates is a good move.

It’s like some people here have never heard of cats and trebs to get into places…

There are some people here not knowing what is fun about playing wvwvw…

I like a good siege myself- much more fun than blobbing up and zerging towers in some karma train.

Again with the blobs and the karmatrain. Point out people here who do that.

What do you consider to not be a zerg or blob? Less than 20? Well those are the people getting hit the hardest by this. Now you need even more people to do something. This is will create more blobs.

If there’s oil up and manned you take it out before getting a ram going.

If there are manned ACs that you can’t pull the users off and gank, or AOE to death, then you back off and get some cats or trebs up.

This is basic siegecraft stuff.

When are we getting Siege-tank as well Anet?

I love that kitten man

evildan.8260:

If there’s oil up and manned you take it out before getting a ram going.

If there are manned ACs that you can’t pull the users off and gank, or AOE to death, then you back off and get some cats or trebs up.

This is basic siegecraft stuff.

So you go in, kill oil and arrowcarts… to build trebs? very basic siegestuff lol.

I guess it might be a divine intervention tbh.
One day after the AC patch, it is 20 degrees outside and not a cloud in the sky.

ty god for showing me the way to redemption!

Hecksa.7140:

Kraag Deadsoul.2789:

1) Zerg builds catapults out of range of arrow cart fire to bring down the wall. SMART.

2) Zerg keeps its members in check, stopping them from approaching the wall prior to breaching, thus keeping them out of arrow cart range. SMART.

3) Zerg masses around its catapult(s) to keep them safe from counter-attack. SMART.

4) Zerg fails to destroy the defenders’ arrow carts with treb fire (there’s a reason Swirling Winds was nerfed). DUMB.

5) Wall breach occurs and zerg trusts to human wave tactics against defenders who possess superior fire power and hold the high ground. DUMB.

Also, it’s not one player wiping the zerg. There are multiple arrow carts in that tower firing at the breach. That zerg would have won if they had built a single treb to take out those arrow carts. They didn’t. They wiped. Time to change tactics. Adapt or die.

Listen to yourself. You’re calling everything involving use of siege smart, and anything involving players actually trying to achieve something themselves – without siege weaponry – dumb.

Do you think WvW is supposed to revolve entirely around the use of siege, and that players builds, abilities and so forth are supposed to be used only as tools to carry supply and finally stand in a circle to capture a keep after siege has done all the work? I was under the evidently false impression that siege was supposed to be a sideshow in WvW, not the main event.

No, you are calling it that. I’m calling rolling up into a zerg ball and expecting auto-attack to become I-WIN-GODMODE dumb. That’s not trying to achieve something themselves; that’s trying to abuse broken game mechanics and human wave tactics to shield one’s self from any risk. It is most certainly not the skillful play you’re trying portray it as. I’m also calling careful assessment of the situation smart. The zerg played smart for a little while, but then completely failed when the wall fell.

I have all the respect in the world for a group of 10 to 20 skillful players using cooperation, coordination, and discipline to achieve a result; whether they’re allies I’m leading or enemies I’m facing. Zerg balls of 50+ players spamming auto-attack and thinking that should translate into automatic capture of fully fortified keeps, loot, karma, and world experience? Absolutely zero respect.

In the context of this one specific video that some are using as a form of propaganda in their arguments against the recent changes to arrow carts, I’m merely pointing out that the zerg in the video was wiped not because of OP arrow carts, but because they exhibit no skill (dumb). They expected to win simply by virtue of superior numbers without any thought given to assessing their and their opponents strengths and weaknesses.

The zerg used a tactic that was easily countered by the defenders. If this video had been made pre-patch and those had been un-buffed superior arrow carts, you’d all be praising the defenders for having been the better players. Now a patch comes out that finally counters the mindless zergs, and the video gets touted as OMG!! ARROW CARTS SO OP NOW !!! If you go rushing into a hailstorm of arrows, it’s a reasonable expectation that you’re going to take damage; perhaps enough to kill you. The zerg did it anyway, putting their faith in the almighty power of human wave tactics. And they got wiped for it. The arrow carts aren’t OP; the zerg was dumb. Simple as that.

As much as you may like to see WvWvW become a white-gloved gentlemans’ duel observing the Queen of Marquis rules where opposing teams of exactly equal balance in all respects (numbers, level, armor, weapons, runes, sigils, accessories, professions, traits, skills, etc.) face one another in a “fair” fight wherein skill and skill alone determines the victor, that simply isn’t the reality of this game mode. You want Guild versus Guild. This isn’t Guild versus Guild and it never will be; this is WvWvW.

You want “fair” fights and skill to count for something; but only as you define it and only when it gives the zerg the advantage. If you’re serious about player skill being what matters in WvWvW, then zergs of overwhelming numerical superiority, playing PvDoor or steamrolling defenders they outnumber 10 to 1, while abusing game mechanics in their favor have no place here. To argue otherwise is being disingenuous.

It’s a good move, the increase in battlefield movement is noticeable. More difficult to pvdoor and the reliability on sieging down keeps has increased which is a push in the right direction. More open field arrow carts are being used which I kinda of like because open field fights should have a siege component to them and not just stack and smack.
It’s slower to pvdoor as you have to move on and off the door to recover but it’s not a show stopper.

evildan.8260:

Kebab.4013:

evildan.8260:

Anything that cuts down on blobs derping down gates is a good move.

It’s like some people here have never heard of cats and trebs to get into places…

There are some people here not knowing what is fun about playing wvwvw…

I like a good siege myself- much more fun than blobbing up and zerging towers in some karma train.

But….it all depends who has the bigger blob. The server with greater number will eventually take down the tower or keep but it will take a bit longer than pre patch days. But re taking the lost tower/keep for smaller servers is going to be impossible now.

PS this isnyt going to stop the karma train but slow it down.

Anatolian Turk.4057:

But….it all depends who has the bigger blob. The server with greater number will eventually take down the tower or keep but it will take a bit longer than pre patch days. But re taking the lost tower/keep for smaller servers is going to be impossible now.

PS this isnyt going to stop the karma train but slow it down.

+1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1

Though karma trains? Who are these karma trainers that keep being mentioned?
Our members are stockpiling millions of karma each currently and there is nothing to use it on except accessories if making alts. People are not playing world vs world to get karma, they are playing world vs world for the fights.

With the AC buff, there won’t be any. There will be either trebbing or running away from arrowcarts.

Yes, yes!

.

Guys guys guys, i finally understand! ANet wanted to stop server side skill lag, thus by implementing superpowered ACs and unstoppable trebs, people are useless, won’t bother using skills and all skill lag is forever gone!

Anatolian Turk.4057:

evildan.8260:

Kebab.4013:

evildan.8260:

Anything that cuts down on blobs derping down gates is a good move.

It’s like some people here have never heard of cats and trebs to get into places…

There are some people here not knowing what is fun about playing wvwvw…

I like a good siege myself- much more fun than blobbing up and zerging towers in some karma train.

But….it all depends who has the bigger blob. The server with greater number will eventually take down the tower or keep but it will take a bit longer than pre patch days. But re taking the lost tower/keep for smaller servers is going to be impossible now.

PS this isnyt going to stop the karma train but slow it down.

Not necessarily- I’ve been in some glorious 2-3 hour siege defences where the enemy outnumbered us something like 20-60, all our walls were down and we had no supply but we managed to hold and eventually push out and wipe the enemy because we’d got some siege up to hold the lord’s room and chokepoints, and most importantly because we were determined and organised. Eventually the enemy lost their fighting spirit and we pushed them out.

Granted that sort of thing happens rarely given the way WVW rewards sheer numbers, and it reflects badly on the enemy, but I find those fights far more rewarding than zergs autoattacking doors down and rolling onto the next target. Organised field tactics is part of the game, but being able to put up a good nuanced siege offense/defence is what shows a server’s character IMO.

“I used to be a WvW’er like you, then I took an arrow to the knee. Literally.”

I wish they could bring back culling and remove WEXP like in the “old” days.

At least we could fight guilds back then. Like.. guilds as in GUILD wars.

Atm its 0 fun for best skirmishing guilds, so time to wait for another mmo. Maybe there will be pvp friendly developer one day !

I hope not, geez, I just dropped 5 rank points for that.

Make AC hit 5 targets only.

So are we on day 2 now after patch? …. 1.1k posts nearly and still no Anet reply. It is rather depressing that I’ve put so much actual time and money into helping this company grow and they won’t even give us a reply.

As stated, this patch is absolutely dumbfounding. I would love to know why Anet thought putting such a huge change into this game without giving any public acknowledgement beforehand was an actual good idea.

Class nerfs/buffs? Cool – I can deal with that. Destroying what WvW was founded upon? Seriously? At least other companies would acknowledge the mistake(and say what is going on internally) or at least tell us it isn’t going anywhere for the people who pretty much stopped playing because of it. Keeping silent about it? ANet is on the fast track to putting itself up there with EA soon.

Lance.5892:

Guys guys guys, i finally understand! ANet wanted to stop server side skill lag, thus by implementing superpowered ACs and unstoppable trebs, people are useless, won’t bother using skills and all skill lag is forever gone!

Close, but wrong. They are making sure there is no skill lag by making people not joining world vs world.

I used to be an adventurer like you, until I took an arrow to me knee, capillaries, veins, eyelash, buttocks, cornea, musculocutaneous nerve, meniscus, metacarpus, metacarpal, backbone, middle-finger, marrow, eyebrow, carpus, ligament, collar-bone, cerebellum, thigh, lips, belly, medulla oblongata, bronchial-tube, tendon, molar, leg, middle frontal gyrus, toes, tissue, labia, lungs, cerebrum, ears, mandible, liver, opisthenar, vocal cord, vessels, quadriceps, brain, ovary, body, bones, thumb, cartilage, tibia, back, bellybutton, epidermis, vomer, cavities, eyes, medial plantar nerve, organ, tear duct, cells, limbic system, little-finger, occipital lobe, calf, vulva, triceps, metatarsal, talus bone, mammary, lymph nodes, limb, mind, throat, mouth, muscles, earlobe, blood, biceps, teeth, vitreous humor, eyeballs, leukocyte, cranium, elbow, torso, Chromosome, tubes, tongue, breast, chest, cheek and lumbar.

Kebab.4013:

Lance.5892:

Guys guys guys, i finally understand! ANet wanted to stop server side skill lag, thus by implementing superpowered ACs and unstoppable trebs, people are useless, won’t bother using skills and all skill lag is forever gone!

Close, but wrong. They are making sure there is no skill lag by making people not joining world vs world.

I used to be an adventurer like you, until I took an arrow to me knee, capillaries, veins, eyelash, buttocks, cornea, musculocutaneous nerve, meniscus, metacarpus, metacarpal, backbone, middle-finger, marrow, eyebrow, carpus, ligament, collar-bone, cerebellum, thigh, lips, belly, medulla oblongata, bronchial-tube, tendon, molar, leg, middle frontal gyrus, toes, tissue, labia, lungs, cerebrum, ears, mandible, liver, opisthenar, vocal cord, vessels, quadriceps, brain, ovary, body, bones, thumb, cartilage, tibia, back, bellybutton, epidermis, vomer, cavities, eyes, medial plantar nerve, organ, tear duct, cells, limbic system, little-finger, occipital lobe, calf, vulva, triceps, metatarsal, talus bone, mammary, lymph nodes, limb, mind, throat, mouth, muscles, earlobe, blood, biceps, teeth, vitreous humor, eyeballs, leukocyte, cranium, elbow, torso, Chromosome, tubes, tongue, breast, chest, cheek and lumbar.

You forgot kitten. How could you forget about the kitten.

I personally can not wait for reset.

All of the people who love the changes as it gives an advantage to lower population servers/time zones, will see what happens when you loose ground early on and can not regain it due to the opposition having access to the same OP mechanics with superior numbers.

All your bases are belong to us!