Guild Wars 2

People shouldn’t misconstrue the bans laid out by anet. They did what they said to do, and people aren’t in the position to be deciding these kind of things.

But, the whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like when you unnecessarily name your team “Reformed manipulators” or “Cheaters always find a way” for the monthly AT, you mock anet and the community. You’ve essentially given everyone the middle finger. I’m sure it gave a few chuckles, but did you really find it that important to make a point?

Azukas, I don’t know what your problem/beef is with Olrun, but it’s pretty clear that you really, really hate Olrun for some reason, and seem to go on every thread to try and accuse Olrun of being the true culprit. Maybe you have insider info that we don’t have, but it’s getting to the point where it’s just kind of…ridiculous? I’m sure if it wasn’t Olrun you wouldn’t be making all these comments.

What I’m suggesting instead is that you bring it up with Olrun in game or through whisper.

Just to clarify my statement as a lot of people seem to replying to it→I understand the reasons for the ban: RMT, account sharing, abuse of game systems, etc. What I’m looking for though is clarification as to why it was necessarily a perma-ban, as opposed to the usual lengthy temp ban of a one to a few years.

I do believe that their actions are serious, and I appreciate anet’s transparency. However, a permanent ban from pvp for people who only pvp is basically a perma-ban entirely, which seems contrary to anet’s usual banning philosophy. From what I understand, perma bans are almost never given out-bans are usually a 1-2 year-thing.

I’m speaking not to defend the actions of these players, but to ask why anet has taken a somewhat different and aggressive stance here. I kindly ask Ben or another dev here to explain this decision further.

I do understand the point that jebro’s actions may affect the “entertaining” aspects of the tournament. Cutting out some of the best players NA has to offer can be seen as a disservice in the sense that you are reducing the competition.

However, if you only consider that fact to disapprove of Jebro’s actions, then you are not truly thinking about the whole picture here and are placing your beliefs and values above others. And that, frankly, is the definition of short-sightedness.

Think about what cost this has to the scene. These players have already demonstrated immoral behaviour that is in direct contrast to the ToS and is perma-bannable. And yes, there is a pattern of such behaviour in NA, which has been linked to the same individuals. If these actions do not go unpunished, what kind of message does it send to the community? The message is that such behaviour is okay. Sure, it might not send the same message to you, but that is besides the point-you have to think about the community as a whole.

Not only that, but this is kittening jebro’s tourney. He can do whatever he wants, to a degree of course (blocking certain players must be justified and not discriminatory). Just like how you can’t tell an individual how to run a legal shop, you can’t tell jebro how to run his tournament. Just like how if you ran a tournament, I wouldn’t go up to you and tell you that you what groups you can’t exclude or not.

And I also think that people are overvaluing the skill level of the accused individuals here. Will the competitive community suffer once they are gone? At this point in time, I can confidently say “no”. All the matches were extremely close at the semi-finals and finals, and there also has been a recent surge in new blood into the competitive scene. There isn’t that much of a difference in the skill levels between these accused individuals and the rest of the community outside of notoriety and egotistical behaviour.

Rocky.8195:

Metabattle is cookie cutter man my build is already tweaked beyond that. Air provides more damage via single target however does it provide better overall damage than the Might stacks from Strength and Force? And out of all the runes I listed in my 2nd question which of those or maybe ones not listed do you find give the best overall benefit? Also Signit of Agility doesn’t out-trump Withdraw, SS OR bandits. You should never use that it’s a waste considering you should always have over 65% critical chance with the correct spec given you built yourself correctly. I really just want to know the questions I asked preferably from well experienced SPvP thieves that are using D/P to compete in the 2017 tournament. Thank you for your input though I really appreciate it, anybody else have a reply that can answer my questions? It would not only benefit me but I’m sure alot of other SPvP main thieves as well. Thanks again guys.

These are some interesting suggestions, and I really do appreciate the willingness to step beyond the meta and strive higher. I can see how these improvements are justified, and I’ll have to look at it more later.

Good luck in your games!

I’m on my phone, so I’ll keep this short and sweet. I’m assuming you are looking for a meta build, but that does not mean you should not try experimenting and seeing what’s fun for you!

1) Air and Fire

2) Scholar or daredevil

3) Use marauder

4) channeled vigor, shadow step, signet of agility, blinding powder OR bandit’s defense, and basilisk venom OR impact strike.

Also, try reviewing your build on the metabattle website.

No, macros are prohibited. A key can be assigned to a button, but one button cannot perform a sequence of motions.

If you suspect that malicious activity is occurring, try your best to see if the action repeats, and then use the report function in game (right click on character portrait).

The alt accounts are becoming an issue, but there’s so little that can be done about it. There is no rule against players having 5-6 alt accounts in the top 250 and thereby pushing others out.
From the top tier player’a perspective, it’s fun and provides an additional challenge that reconfirms one’s status/ego within the pvp community. It’s hardly ever considered that bringing an alt will have a negative effect on others, and I personally believe the consequences need to be better advocated. Especially considering those just shy of the 250 rank mark and are dedicating themselves to get there. It really is an injustice.

Of course, I doubt that any player will realistically stop grinding their alts only because of the fact that they are pushing others out. As cynical as this sounds, most top tier players generally don’t really care that much about the community as they are getting out so much value from it. Heck, Nos this evening was streaming and grinding alts to legend just this evening, perhaps unintentionally encouraging the practice. There isn’t enough attention or concern in the community.

I don’t know how anet is going to address this issue, but it is one that can only really be solved by the company itself.

oEnvy.3064:

Gaile Gray.6029:

Revenant is in an interesting place in PvP. It’s undoubtedly one of the more difficult professions to play, but when mastered it is devastating on the battlefield. We’re going to bring some elements of the main power build down slightly,

• Surge of the Mists: The damage of this ability has been reduced by 50% in PvP only.
• Precision Strike: The damage of this ability has been reduced by 33% in PvP only.

SLIGHTLY.

Hi everyone,

I was a player pretty active on the scene and the forums since beta. You probably don’t know me or care, but thief was my main until I started dabbling in ele later in proleague season 2. I played in many tournaments in NA and was in proleague for season 1 and 2.

The reason why I wanted to make this post was to thank everyone in the esports scene for basically give me the chance to play. I didn’t deserve being esports because I never wanted it in the first place and never put in the effort like some people. I never had the competitive spirit, but for some reason I got onto teams and played. The game was just that fun i guess. Just goes to show though how previous esports experience is stupid because there are so many other people that deserve esports status but havent gotten the chance.

When people said that I was bad, yes I was indeed pretty bad and got carried. I don’t know why people ever thought I was decent for a time. I don’t know why people accepted my invites to join a team, or why astral asked me to sub for season 2. All pretty bad decisions imo but I guess luck is on your side some of the time and we were able to pull through.

It’s been a fun ride, but real life hits you like a truck. I have decided to put forth all of my efforts into pursuing my dream of becoming a physician. Writing this will also help solidify that I’m done with this game aside from casually logging on to do pve and pvp.

I’d like to dedicate this post to luck and bloodlegion who first got me into pvp, and then ellusive for being my first team, and then apex prime, stalagta+sunfish for giving me the chance to play. Shoutouts to ipno and mobz for keeping me on the team despite me losing tranquility and losing a boss kill to a bunker mesmer on proleague stream. But as all of you soon found out, I was never meant for this kind of life. You guys are the glorious burning fire that will keep this community going for years to come.

Maybe one day I’ll be back, but who knows. I was always more of a console gamer and reader. Good luck to all the teams participating in the qualifiers tomorrow!

And for all people looking to get into pvp, kitten this game gives such an amazing experience that you will not find anywhere else. Keep at it, talk to people, and believe in yourself!

ps grouch is a god for this community and deserves much more than people give him credit for. Same with the pvp staff.

Balance is getting somewhere. But there are still issues with the core game, which is pretty much impossible to fix unless there is an overhaul.

Here is a short list of a few of the issues:

-Matchmaking is questionable
-League system is grind based instead of being skill based
-Rewards are abysmal compared to pve, and are not skill based
-No objective quantification of skill. Personal skill is measured by subjective bias, esports status, and how you convince others you are good. Players have difficulty getting into the esports scene because of this.
-Lackluster tutorial into pve
-Skills are too multi-faceted. They do too many things when they should just be kept to a single effect.
-Too much AoE
-Too many forgiving builds and passive traits
-Lack of diversity in builds because of elite specializations.
-Lack of diverse game modes
-Few maps
-Spectator mode still buggy
-No replays
-Personal score does not indicate your performance. Leads to toxicity
-Poor statisistics. Does not indicate your contributions to your team very much.
-No solo/team que split
-Few tournaments
-No leaderboards
-Pvp music is repetitive
-Visual effects are disorienting in large teamfights
-Powercreep
-Low pvp population
-No surrender/resign function like in gw1
-No build templates

One time I was 1v1ing a reaper on my d/p thief and I quickly dodged away when he/she went into reaper shroud, eventually killing him/her. The individual quickly spammed in map chat that I was being too much of a tryhard and that thief required no skill at all.

After the match ended, he/she whispered me and said that I should uninstall my game for being a tryhard. I told him/her that I was kind of part of the esports scene somewhat, and that running away from dangerous things such as reaper shroud was kind of just ingrained in my head.

He/she then got really mad and started calling me names and such, eventually stating that I had a responsibility as an “esports player” to intentionally die in 1v1s in ques to boost the self-esteem and confidence of new players, because the game was dying.

And then he/she started calling me tryhard in map chat and whispers repeatedly until eventually logging off.

Honestly this is probably a bigger problem than the bunker mesmer meta.

When I was first thinking why I wanted to make a forum post, I realized that it wasn’t really because of a single issue, but an amalgamation of all the things currently occurring in the pvp scene. I won’t cover everything in one sitting, but hopefully I can address some of the things happening right now in the “competitive scene” without actually really being in it. I’ll just go and type stuff now without really having a clear direction because im lazy.

I remember back in beta days everyone was very hyped and excited because the game, because at it’s core, the game was revolutionary. Nothing held a candle to it. I had uninstalled the game during orientation week in college but returned shortly, realizing how amazing this game was at it’s core and it’s b2p model. I think that’s a sentiment that a lot of people share, which is why we see the endless cycles of people leaving, and then returning sometime later.

It’s pretty clear that anet’s primary audience is the casual player. For almost 4 years now, the game’s potential has yet to be fully realized, but we still have a core group of dedicated players. It’s not really anyone’s fault though, because obviously the game’s primary purpose is to make money, and the most money is made off of casual players. PvE is great though, and the few times I do find myself fighting against mordremoth I can very much see the appeal. Maybe it’s a sense of nostalgia from earlier days, but who knows.

But that core of players is really waning, especially as we see players that are really just here for the competitive scene rather than the game take flight since the proleagues are over. It’s pretty clear when I log in and check my friends list or spvp mist initiative who is really in it for the game, and who isn’t. But motivation doesn’t really matter because we just need more people playing the game. People also may be on vacation or dealing with real life stuff too so I can’t make too many judgements.

But is motivation a factor? Players who are generally in it for the competition have arguably less devotion to the game, and less care to the game in general. They seek respect and pocket change, but again who knows when this is all a big generalization.

Also on that topic, I am very ambivalent towards proleagues because yes, more tournament and money is nice and all, but it has really separated the once tightly bound community to many cliques and teams who are fighting for a (comparatively) meager prize pool. There is much less attention to making the game better, but that also may just be a result of people being tired from trying to make the game better for 4 years. There’s a much higher level of toxicity in the game and less creativity, as people are simply trying to win more than ever. In the longterm, proleague may be far more detrimental to the game than what we can foresee now.

The purpose of proleagues is also quite clear: it’s a disguised marketing technique that hits two birds with one stone: cater to the pvp crowd while increasing the game’s population.

The current league, pip, and rewards system is also very flawed. I won’t go into too many details because of the slew of threads, but yeah it’s troubling. It seems like the system is trying to give a sense of progression to every player, but it is in fact just inflating egos and not giving a really measurable progression that matters (skill-based). But that in itself requires a higher population, and thus maybe what we have is the best we got.

So maybe this game’s core isn’t so great as we thought. Yes, the game is complex and has a a high learning curve. So then maybe this game was doomed from the start. Taking a look at other games currently, they are far more easier to understand and play, even if the actual gameplay and satisfaction may not be on the same level.

Overall, just looking back this game has been great but I’m not seeing too much of this game in the future. It’s been a good run, and sadly due to all the circumstances (with good intentions in mind) the potential of this game was so left out. But maybe this is just pessimism and we’ll see some sort of revamp. I would look to Acandis’ post for maybe more insight to how this could be done because I’m not intelligent enough to see the entire picture.

Acandis.3250:

Hey there! Props to you for staying positive despite your frustration.

The current pip system is deceptively not noob friendly letting many people get an almost free pass to division 4 only to be met by seemingly undeserved loss streaks.

I made it to Ruby pretty easily, right? That probably means I’m pretty good!

Sadly this is not always the case; the current Ranked system is not a good one for new players to learn the game well. The good thing is that you’re not lying to yourself.

As some above me have mentioned, stick to Unranked queue for now. Despite the fact many ragers in Ranked will try to insult you by saying this, I assure you: we are not!

I would recommend you focus on 1v1s first (mostly by always capping homenode and fighting anyone that pushes you). Don’t camp the node once it’s capped, if nobody pushed you at the start, it discourages people from fighting you on it, and you won’t learn matchups like that!

Alternatively you can push far from the start, you might die a lot at first, and some people might chew you out for it, but worry not, you are in unranked; have some fun and practice your mechanics.

One last thing, every time you die, even if it was your teammates fault, always analyze your situation and think: what mistakes did I make during that fight? What can I do better next time?

Be analytical and objective, and I’m sure you’ll improve in no time!

Once you feel very comfortable with most—if not all—your matchups, feel free to try Ranked again.

Best of luck!

What is this? A nice, positive post from Acandis? Am I dreaming?

Before this topic gets too derailed…
I think every rational individual can unanimously agree that the disabled are placed in very unfortunate circumstances that are beyond our understanding, and do require our support. I can’t imagine what these people have to go through each day, when life can be…so difficult in so many other ways.
On the other hand, it’s wrong to call out people and state that they are terrible human beings for pointing out that a disabled individual might have difficulty playing the game or should strive to improve. Especially when people have zero knowledge of the OP’s circumstances. Yes, it’s true that we should always consider the possibly extenuating conditions of a person behind the computer screen, but having a disability that will directly affect gw2 is very rare and something that we don’t assume online as compared to real life, because in real life such disabilities are usually made very visible or clear so that we can accommodate.
So, on behalf of people in this thread, please accept any apologies for any posts that may seem to have malice against you. On the other hand, please understand that we do not know of your condition, and guild wars 2 is a game that is optimally played with 2 hands. Playing too excessively long is unhealthy as well.

The best we can do is support you, but neither you or anyone else should feel entitled to do so. Feel free to add me if you want and we could que together (Aeroxe.8140). I’m on NA and have played in the competitive scene including esl proleague for quite some time. Best of luck.

Pyriall.1683:

Aeroxe.8140:

Honestly, with the abysmal player base I think the system in place is near the best that anet can pull off, and I’m sure they know it. I’m all for people dropping leagues and losing tickets and stuff, but can we really afford that when we need people to grind up leagues, feel good about themselves, and feel a sense of progression?

We might need to tune matchmaking because these “MMR hell” posts show up more and more, and it’s obviously bothering a lot of people. We need to get people that are on maybe a 3+ loss streak to be then given an incredibly easy game with a stacked team of their own maybe.

Who cares if OP is not taking the issue into his own hands by getting better and instead blaming the game? We just need more players to play and are content with their performance. With every post like this, I’m sure hundreds of others are feeling the same and it really is justified from both sides.

Your suggestion is just as bad as her complaining.

In retrospect, I can see how it might be because it sounds like I’m exaggerating and I’m pointing the finger, but this is what I believe. People shouldn’t have to go through a loss streak of 25-30 no matter how unwilling they are to improve. There should be some safety system to ensure that there is an incredibly high chance of winning a match after a loss streak.

Above all, we just need players to play the game without being discouraged so that anet can implement some better, less grindy system.

Honestly, with the abysmal player base I think the system in place is near the best that anet can pull off, and I’m sure they know it. I’m all for people dropping leagues and losing tickets and stuff, but can we really afford that when we need people to grind up leagues, feel good about themselves, and feel a sense of progression?

We might need to tune matchmaking because these “MMR hell” posts show up more and more, and it’s obviously bothering a lot of people. We need to get people that are on maybe a 3+ loss streak to be then given an incredibly easy game with a stacked team of their own maybe.

Who cares if OP is not taking the issue into his own hands by getting better and instead blaming the game? We just need more players to play and are content with their performance. With every post like this, I’m sure hundreds of others are feeling the same and it really is justified from both sides.

In general, I think ele just needs some numbers toned down, unlike many classes that need some more design changes. Perhaps a decrease in the healing coefficient of elemental bastion.

If you’re getting hammered by thieves, it might be a good idea to keep watch of their position on the minimap, which is something you should be doing in general. Knowing that a thief is nearby or off respawn can help you time your random dodging and other blocks/stuns/blinds/AoEs to defend yourself.

When I fight people in legend+, usually if I’m nearby and in steal rage they’ll dodge 2 or 3 times into a block, trying to bait my burst. Often, this is the best thing to do.

I started the season in sapphire, and maybe played 6-7 games a day. In about a week and a half I got legend, and since then I’ll be lucky to get a que pop in a day. Ques usually take an hour or two, and although I appreciate the more league-based matchmaking, it’s a double edged sword. MMR hell still exists too-out of the 60 or some games I can only recall being fond of maybe 2 or 3 of them where my team hasn’t been able to steamroll, resulting in a near 100% winrate when I played thief (my main) and a near 75% winrate when I just fooled around on other classses.

In short, I just don’t really know what arenanet can do about this with the current season intervals. It’s obvious there isn’t a player base sufficient for this system to be implemented as people in legend tier often can’t get good games (or games at all) in the off season and the first month or so ranked season. I would suggest maybe decreasing the length of the offseason, extending current seasons, and allowing players to fall to lower leagues.

TheDevice.2751:

Aeroxe.8140:

PoB
-Massive animation, easy to see
-Is a trap, requires people to walk over it first and can only be put under your feet. Dragonhunter is a longrange class…contradiction.
-Traited traps requires losing much more powerful traits.

You seem to like to only bring up the negatives with PoB.. which reallly arent negatives to anyone who’s ever played this game. I’m sensing bias

PoB
- Massive animation, same as WoS
- Is a trap. It doesn’t require you to be there for activation
Dragonhunter is a longrange class…correlates (plus you’re not required to use elite spec weapon)
- Traited. Same goes for nearly every traited type

WoS
-Being unblockable is so freaking good. Like very good.
-Necro is much stronger in the meta right now than guardian (sustain, damage, mobility)
-Traited wells requires not much sacrifice in terms of traits, but why are you going death magic in the first place…?

Wow you sound like Donald Trump the way you boast about WoS. I can’t imagine there could be anything wrong with it.

- Unblockable is great. Its also easy to avoid like you said above. But its so good… nobody uses WoS.
- Necro is much stronger in the meta right now…. What? And are those meta necro builds all ploping out WoS? no? then why bring up meta?
- Traited wells. Why go death magic anyways right? A whole trait line apparently is garbage.

I fail to see how this helps your argument…

Please stop assuming that people are biased just because they disagree with you, which is a common pattern in your posts. The only reason why I went into the negatives of PoB was because your post already made it clear that you knew the advantages. In addition, it helps my argument, which is to state that skills need to be considered in the context of the professions as wholes.

I don’t see how I made any reference to any political views or figures. Stating that I sound like a political figure seems unnecesssary in objectively criticizing a post. It’s borderline insulting to some posters, and I advise that we stick to the game.

I literally just stated that there are negatives to PoB in that it is contradictory to the emphasis on long range of DH. Please read my posts clearly before hurriedly writing a post to counter mine.
You also mentioned “which reallly arent negatives to anyone who’s ever played this game. I’m sensing bias”. They are negatives, and stating that it’s obvious to anyone that’s ever played this game is offensive to those that really haven’t. I don’t mean to pull the esports card, but let me state that I’ve played this game since beta winning multiple tournaments and in both season 1 and 2 of proleague. You can google my esl account if my words are insufficient.

TheDevice.2751:

Dahkeus.8243:

You really don’t seem to get it and I think we’re all running out of ways to explain it to you.

It doesn’t kittening matter whether PoB or WoS are better than each other.

Keep asking bad questions and you’ll never find a good answer.

If a necro had a skill that was a peanut and threw it on the ground and it did nothing it would still be balanced if the necro had another skill that killed every enemy on the map equally. This is the balance you speak of. Oh, I get it.

What I don’t get is why you can’t explain the specifics of how WoB is balanced in the Necromancer class compared to how PoB is balanced in the Guard/DH class.

Go ahead I’ll hear ya out.

First, there are so many things that it would be impossible to compare everything. Essentially, what you’re asking is why guardian might be better than necro, or vice versa.
But let’s try this out.

PoB
-Massive animation, easy to see
-Is a trap, requires people to walk over it first and can only be put under your feet. Dragonhunter is a longrange class…contradiction.
-Traited traps requires losing much more powerful traits.

WoS
-Being unblockable is so freaking good. Like very good.
-Necro is much stronger in the meta right now than guardian (sustain, damage, mobility)
-Traited wells requires not much sacrifice in terms of traits, but why are you going death magic in the first place…?

Dahkeus.8243:

TheDevice.2751:

Aeroxe.8140:

TheDevice.2751:

Dahkeus.8243:

TheDevice.2751:

Dahkeus.8243:

TheDevice.2751:

Am I missing something?

Pretty much everything else involved in those two professions as well as how other professions affect them.

Like saying Signet of

Those skills aren’t used in a vacuum.

You’re blatantly comparing apples to oranges and even if this was the source of an imbalance (it’s not), then you’d still be making a really cynical stretch to assume the intentions of the developers behind such balance in claiming “favoritism”.

How is it apples and oranges?

You’re just using that saying as if it applies just because. Its two aoe skills with ticks that do damage.

Comparing like signet of the locust with pob is comparing apples and oranges. Do you know what the saying “apples and oranges” means?

By your example, nothing is comparable. At all. Ever.

Because Guardians and Necros are very different classes, so adding a skill of one type is very strong for them, while adding the exact same skill to another class makes no improvement.

By my example, you don’t balance a game or define balance by comparing tool tips, but you can compare classes when you consider the factors that make a class strong or weak. You just don’t make drastic oversimplifications and then dramatic overarching conclusions from them. You think critically and consider as much as you can to make a smart decision.

Nope. I don;t get what you’re saying in this example. I get what you’re saying essentially and essentially its correct. You just don’t think I’ve thought that far.

Give necro a PoB skill. You think it wouln’t be better than WoS?

Thats ridiculous. Even reading up somebody asks, “who uses WoS, anyway.”

Exactly. Not even necro’s use it because its not good. It’s not that hard to think about. You’re making excuses just to make excuses.

PoB > WoS

A child could see which is better. A child.

And sure, take into account being traited. PoB is still better off.

I think a lot of people have said enough, and that if you can’t grasp what others have said here than you are way too close-minded and immature to understand that your opinion is not always equivalent to fact. Yes, PoB may be better in isolation compared to WoS, but you need to take the entire context (that is, the rest of the profession) into account. How you even suggest that this indicates favouritism is just simply baffling.

Here’s an analogy that you’ll maybe understand. If you don’t, then I’m just lost:

You (let’s say you’re Bob) and Johnny are going to school one day and it’s lunch time. You both open your lunchboxes, eagerly awaiting to eat the juicy grapes that both your mothers packed in today. Unfortunately, Johnny has more grapes than you, and they appear a more luscious purple! How undeserving! But wait! Your mother has packed in a delicious turkey sandwich where Johnny only has a leftover lunchable. In addition , you have the batman lunchbox whereas Johnny has a paperbag. It all evens out!

Okay fine. Good. All that is good stuff theoretically.

now, explain to me exactly how PoB is just as good as WoS.

In what ways are Necro’s benefiting from WoS as equally as Guards are benefiting from PoB?

You really don’t seem to get it and I think we’re all running out of ways to explain it to you.

It doesn’t kittening matter whether PoB or WoS are better than each other.

Keep asking bad questions and you’ll never find a good answer.

TheDevice.2751:

Dahkeus.8243:

TheDevice.2751:

Dahkeus.8243:

TheDevice.2751:

Am I missing something?

Pretty much everything else involved in those two professions as well as how other professions affect them.

Like saying Signet of

Those skills aren’t used in a vacuum.

You’re blatantly comparing apples to oranges and even if this was the source of an imbalance (it’s not), then you’d still be making a really cynical stretch to assume the intentions of the developers behind such balance in claiming “favoritism”.

How is it apples and oranges?

You’re just using that saying as if it applies just because. Its two aoe skills with ticks that do damage.

Comparing like signet of the locust with pob is comparing apples and oranges. Do you know what the saying “apples and oranges” means?

By your example, nothing is comparable. At all. Ever.

Because Guardians and Necros are very different classes, so adding a skill of one type is very strong for them, while adding the exact same skill to another class makes no improvement.

By my example, you don’t balance a game or define balance by comparing tool tips, but you can compare classes when you consider the factors that make a class strong or weak. You just don’t make drastic oversimplifications and then dramatic overarching conclusions from them. You think critically and consider as much as you can to make a smart decision.

Nope. I don;t get what you’re saying in this example. I get what you’re saying essentially and essentially its correct. You just don’t think I’ve thought that far.

Give necro a PoB skill. You think it wouln’t be better than WoS?

Thats ridiculous. Even reading up somebody asks, “who uses WoS, anyway.”

Exactly. Not even necro’s use it because its not good. It’s not that hard to think about. You’re making excuses just to make excuses.

PoB > WoS

A child could see which is better. A child.

And sure, take into account being traited. PoB is still better off.

I think a lot of people have said enough, and that if you can’t grasp what others have said here than you are way too close-minded and immature to understand that your opinion is not always equivalent to fact. Yes, PoB may be better in isolation compared to WoS, but you need to take the entire context (that is, the rest of the profession) into account. How you even suggest that this indicates favouritism is just simply baffling.

Here’s an analogy that you’ll maybe understand. If you don’t, then I’m just lost:

You (let’s say you’re Bob) and Johnny are going to school one day and it’s lunch time. You both open your lunchboxes, eagerly awaiting to eat the juicy grapes that both your mothers packed in today. Unfortunately, Johnny has more grapes than you, and they appear a more luscious purple! How undeserving! But wait! Your mother has packed in a delicious turkey sandwich where Johnny only has a leftover lunchable. In addition , you have the batman lunchbox whereas Johnny has a paperbag. It all evens out!

Yes, basilisk venom and pulmonary impact are overpowered/overtuned, and do need nerfs.

However, the truth is that there are so many other larger problems with other classes that need to be addressed first before looking at basi/pulm. The number of passives, multi-faceted weapon skills, and random AoE found in other classes are way more disruptive at the moment. Basi/pulm are very, very, very, minuscule issues in comparison.

Although guild wars 2 is a different game entirely, it should be noted that gw1 did have skill splits between pve and pvp, and it worked really, really well to increase build diversity. Hopefully, arenanet can change their mindset around gw2, because as it stands balancing for three game modes will never really work out.
Then again, if arenanet is not aiming for esports and esports is just commercialization, then I can see the curent model working. But then that’s just depressing and brings out cynicalism.

The divison or guild wars 2?

Woah, this thread blew up fast. But expectedly so. If not read with reflection and thought, some points could be missed and things could be taken a bit too personally.

MMR hell does exist. The MMR system is usually placing higher MMR players with players similar in caliber. Saying that it doesnt exist is being somewhat myopic. There’s a reason why the general community is in uproar, and implying (notice how I said it’s not your opinion or a fact) that it’s because the community doesn’t want to improve is neglect. As competitive players, it’s important to keep in mind the big picture and that the community in general, although melodramatic, makes suggestions for a reason.

On the other hand, maybe it’s not really a MMR “hell”. Slightly disadvantaged maybe, but I definitely agree that there seems to be a lot more blame on the system rather than a strive to improve. But that’s what people want in a game you see? People like winning, and want to feel good from a videogame, where the primary purpose is enjoyment.

Perhaps people are really “carrying so hard” in solo que and can’t get out of the hell, but that’s ignoring that competitive tournament players like you and I that are proof that the “hell” can be gotten out of. “carrying” is also very subjective. But how can we ask players to improve when they don’t really want to? Is that fair for a system in a game that’s targetted towards casuals?

The necessity of this post in the first place is a bit questionable, and doesn’t exactly fulfill a purpose when the community is more than likely to blow up and defend themselves. My own stance is that people are indeed complaining a bit too much, and really, it’s an individual issue that can’t really be discussed because people have different needs. To cater to the majority, I do dislike the MMR hell and if it means that I have to get worse ques with people below my MMR and “carry” people who think they are “carrying”, I would take that for the health of the game.

Deleted post for stupidity. Sorry, it was friday night.

PLEASE KEEP THIS HERE DEVS. THIS ISN’T JUST A THIEF TOPIC AND IS MORE ALIGNED WITH THE GOALS OF THE SPVP FORUM.

Alright, so I was meaning to do this at some point, because what seems to be a trend is that a lot of the game’s direction is spearheaded somewhat by the forums and reddit. In addition, there are misconceptions amongst players, and I felt that the forums was an a suitable way of getting rid of these misconceptions and reaching out to the developers. Also sort of inspired by the depth of discussion by Zuko’s post….I guess people can be objective. Anyways…

Yeah, I hate doing this but some credibility so that I don’t get flamed: I played in season 1 proleague, and will be in the challenger cup next week. I’ve been playing thief since beta days, and have played with many of the players in the “pro” scene on a team at some point. Anyways…

Let’s get started. Is thief viable? It is and it isn’t. If you’re queing up, any build can honestly work, as map rotations and awareness is what screws over people, as well as lacking a baseline of mechanical skill. You could run condi or bunker thief with wanderer’s amulet and it will work. I can’t stress this enough, but really, composition is hardly an issue in ques.

The issue at hand is whether thief is competitive and will be seen in proleague. Honestly, probably not. No teams I know of in high-level scrimmages will be running thief in their main composition, but I know some are having it as a backpocket (such as myself) against certain teams. So then why? Didn’t we just get buffed?

Take this with a grain of salt, but imo the class “balance tier” is:
Revenant>Necro>Ele>Engi>Mesmer>Ranger>Guardian>Thief>Warrior

The first issue is mercenary and paladin’s amulet. Anet’s balance philosophy was to maintain the “bunker role”, but reduce its effectiveness in the past patch. The problem is, these new amulets are very strong, and synergize extremely well with the most “broken” classes. Fights are still going on for way too long in scrimmages, but I will concede that there is an improvement. I think most teams will be running 4-5 of these amulets because of their sustainability. Thief can’t break this sustain that so many classes still have.

The second issue is the overtuning of certain classes, rendering thief damage insignificant to compensate for their lack of survivability. There is just a ridiculous amount of AoE in the current meta that a thief will literally die in 2-3 seconds when engaging on point. In addition, shortbow is much weaker due to the number of reflects that classes have access to. To make matters worse, almost every class has multiple “get-out-of-jail-free” cards to make up for poor positioning, such that thief will be hard-pressed to burst anyone down. Even if a thief is able to take someone down, there is still lots of res utility and cross-heals from other teammates to deal with. Stealth utility is rendered insignificant with the massive number of reveals and AoE spam.

These issues cause thief to be lackluster in not just teamfights, but in many 2v2s. So where do we go from here? What balance changes are needed?

Thief does not need to be buffed. Maybe a backstab damage increase or an acrobatics trait rework, but again I think the class is fine.

If I were to address the main issues, it would be revenant and necromancer. Revenant does an insane amount of damage , and it seems much like a thief 2.0. Thus, reducing its damage seems to be the way to go. Sword 2 is obviously very suspect, but I would also argue that equilibrium and phase traversal need to be looked at. Maybe a reversion to the old sword #2 and a decrease to 900 range for phase traversal. The AoE dragon thing on glint I think needs a longer cast time. Stab on dodge is ridiculous. Blocks and invulns need to be reduced, but this may be going too far.

The amount of chill that necromancer has is ridiculous, but I wouldn’t say that this is an issue with a thief running dash. However, necromancer tears apart every other class in teamfights, 1v1s, 2v2s…etc, rendering less support for thief. The tankiness of mercenary amulet allows this class to be make many mistakes and be very forgiving. Honestly, a removal of mercenary amulet and a further decrease in chill damage should be considered. Corrupt boon and the new curses build is beyond ridiculous.

Again, I wouldn’t touch thief too much, as I think the class is in great shape. The issue though, is how powercreeped everything else is, making thief inviable at the moment in top-tier play. But, in ques, anything is viable.

Let me know what you think!

I’m chiming in cause it involves a few friends of mine. Yes, it is kind of offputting that 2/5 members can supposedly takeover a team, but for the 3 members who got kicked…you need to stand up for yourselves if it means a lot to you, instead of coming on to the forums or causing drama. I think the 3 members should try and contact an admin, and vouch to keep the challenger league slot. 3 members>2

Rym.1469:

OP, weren’t you supposed to leave the game or sth?

Got’em boiz.

Ok but seriously, we don’t even know what’s really going to be in the balance patch, so I think it’s a bit early to start making assumptions on arenanet’s attitudes towards certain professions. Also consider that balance needs to consider other gamemodes, as it already has been well established that splitting skills between gamemodes is not an option.

What’s your opinion of improv vs. executioner?

bluri.2653:

I have never seen anyone complain about thieves in my games if there ever was one, nor when I played it myself

I haven’t received much hate either, but there’s the occasional rambling. I just see it a lot from the enemy side of things for their thieves, and it’s just terrible the things that some people say. It isn’t conducive for newcomers.

I don’t know why some stuff is underlined…please ignore that.

K, let’s be honest and straightforward here…thief isn’t exactly the most viable profession at the moment, and in comparison to most specs, the thief is required to be of much higher mechanical skill to match. But this doesn’t mean that in ques people should throw up their arms/rage/point fingers/be discouraged/give up whenever a thief is on their team, as most of the time in solo que the professions don’t really matter. Personally, I believe thief can be somewhat viable with the right composition and team. The purpose of this post is to hopefully address these issues and encourage players to understand that thief does not always mean an automatic loss.
Thief, when played right, can be a force. The daredevil elite is extremely potent, and thief can still decap well and 2v1 fights efficiently, as most opposing teams do not run full bunk with 2 bunker mesmers and comms like proleague.
However, that is to say that the thief role should not be restricted to 2v1ing, killing bosses on Nifhel, and decapping. I don’t think thief should stay in massive teamfights (4v4+) at all, but thief can do the job well in small skirmishes. The thief “role” is not really a “role” as it is just being a player that is aware of the map and do well in skirmishes, peeling, and supporting other team members. I can’t stress this enough and I hope players reading this will understand that there really is no thief “job” but really just being a solid and map aware member of the team.
On the other hand, I will acknowledge that I also only trust a few players of the community with playing thief effectively on a team in ques, and of course that is an issue I’m sure is well recognized. However, more than likely, that thief’s MMR will compensate for any skill differences, and thus if you see a thief in que, more than likely your team will do just fine if you keep yourself from being discouraged.

I think that in general, the community (and myself included) would be in favour for the removal of class stacking. However, I think it’s important to highlight why people may not be in favour of removing class stacking, especially in a “professional” tournament. I’m not trying to play devil’s advocate, but merely promoting a more critical appraisal of the issue.

Against class stacking:
1) The meta still sucks. Double chrono bunker and condi rev will still be the go-to comp for most teams, but I do expect to see some variation with the addition of maybe a necromancer. The nerfs are good, but not enough to change many compositions, and I still expect to see many games go to timer. The skill floor ceiling has dropped so drastically to the point that many newer players in the scene can compete at high-tier.
2) More “enjoyable” to watch. Many spectators have a favoured profession and do not play “professionally”. It is more enjoyable to see what competitive players can do with their favoured profession.
3) Less toxicity and more competition. There’s been a lot of demoralization in the community because many players in ESL have been forced off main classes. In combination with the current meta, it is hard to motivate oneself to get better at the game.

In favour of class-stacking:
1) I think the best reason why people might want to keep class stacking is that some teams in ESL have practiced and “figured out” how to play the cheese meta. It would be accordingly unfair to shake up the meta when teams have already put in so much work.
2) Changing up the rules may be harder thank we think it may be. As a professional tournament, this may require permission from arenanet and across-the-board changes in corporate operation. Not to mention that it would look bad when changing up the rules.

For future discussion, I would like to direct everyone’s attention to the subreddit. Most of our thoughts (players of zero counterplay) can be found there:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3wy1gn/zero_counterplay_leave_match/

Good start. Would like to see something done to precog if possible, but these are not too overwhelming or underwhelming. Even with these changes, these will not stop teams from running 2-3 bunker mesmers (+tempest) and 2 condi revs.

I hardly believe arenanet will implement any patch mid-season. I think it’s more realistic to be considering changes to ESL rules, such as class-stacking.

#firstworldproblems
but yeah I would just wait until people catch up.

opticaldelusion.5078:

Thief is fine, adapt and l2p. Have you tried playing an actual build like P/P or D/D condi? Because all the noobs I see playing thief are on D/P or Staff which just aren’t viable anymore, seriously the PvP thieves could learn a thing or two from my WvW roaming guild instead of being stuck up

Well this won’t end well.

sinject.4607:

Aeroxe.8140:

1) Dragonhunter is fine.
If anything, it’s actually a bit weak at the moment, and I don’t think many of the teams currently in NA are running it (I believe one team is?). I don’t agree entirely with some of the class design choices, but yeah you won’t see much of this in proleague. It’s just not good enough.

so you hopped off thief when things got hard and rolled over to dragonhunter and then come here to defend it? it’s not “a bit” weak, it just has very niche counters from other overpowered specs that are plentiful in ESL. it’s ridiculously easy to play and provides a completely inordinate amount of reward given what one has to put into it. if herald is celestial ele 2.0, dragonhunter is turret engie 2.0.

If I did not play for an ESL team, I would still be playing thief. I still consider my main to be thief just because I love the class, but I rolled off of thief for now so that I could do as much as I could for my team as possible. I don’t think it’s right to play my main class just because I desperately want to or I think personally it’s viable…I have to place the needs of my team first in a tournament that means a lot to my teammates. It’s just the ethical thing to do.

Anyways, the point of the thread was to clarify some of the key issues and guide development and the community in the right direction. A secondary thing I wanted to do was to maybe better connect the community and what’s happening in pvp competitive play.

Browrain.7346:

x1000 on bunker mesmer. I’ve mained mesmer since beta and it’s depressing to see good shatter mesmers like zeromis have to play bunker to be relevant for their team.

I agree with your other points too.

I think this is what is actually been really demoralizing the competitive community as of late. Being forced to not play our main classes…the classes that we admire for their playstyle and lore…it’s been hitting us players pretty hard. Playing the game has become more so a pursuit of winning proleague as of late rather than enjoying the game and seeing ourselves improve with the classes. We can’t play our main classes ….we don’t want to cause the rest of our team to lose just because we refuse to switch off our main classes. Unlike previous metas, the number of “meta” builds has fallen drastically to maybe 3 or 4. Hopefully things change.

However, again, this is from my point of view. I’m sure many people are fine with just switching classes, because the desire to win is much greater. I still, of course, wish to win, but man does it suck when you are forced off a class you’ve mained for 2 and a half years.

I’m positive arenanet is aware of the current meta in guild wars 2 competitive pvp, but I just want to ensure that the core issues in the current meta are well understood by both the developers and community. I also want to make clear that some issues that may be perceived by the community are actually not issues at all in competitive play. From my understanding, some of the balance in the game is driven not by the people in proleague but also by some forum input.

I am a participant in the ESL proleague team for NA called Zero Counterplay, and I don’t think there is a better name for the current meta as of now. ESL proleague tomorrow is going to be quite….a shock… from what I’ve seen in scrimmages for the past week.

Anyways, I’ll state some of the goingon’s in proleague scrimmages, issues in balance, and some (what I think to be) false beliefs in point form for conciseness. I’ll also try to cut it short, and not be stating too many specifics so that I am respectful of my fellow proleague teams.

1) Dragonhunter is fine.
If anything, it’s actually a bit weak at the moment, and I don’t think many of the teams currently in NA are running it (I believe one team is?). I don’t agree entirely with some of the class design choices, but yeah you won’t see much of this in proleague. It’s just not good enough.

2) Thief and warrior are dead…mostly.
It saddens me, but the stuff out there in the current meta is really just too strong. Many thieves in NA have switched over I think in this past week to one of the stronger classes.

3) League system does need some finetuning.
I don’t think I have to go over this.

4) Bunker mesmer and condition revenant are beyond ridiculous, and teams having been testing their potency by running x2, x3, and even x4.
-These builds are really really really strong and extremely forgiving. Many teamfights are just a mess with 1v1s and 2v2s especially being more dictated by passive procs and luck. The skill ceiling has fallen drastically.

5) Elementalist and druid are being phased out
-Bunker mesmer is claiming their spots.. Elementalists and druids are still viable somewhat, but some teams have dropped the classes entirely.

6) Marauder scrapper is coming back, but not entirely. Like reaper now, it is being tested in comparison to bunker mes and condi rev.

7) The power creep is very, very real.
-Balance patches in the future should aim not to buff underpowered specs, but to tune what is too strong at the present time.

I think that covers most of the things I wanted to say, but yeah things aren’t looking too bright from the competitive side. I’ll try to add things that come to mind. Proleague is still going to be a blast to watch though, so check it out tomorrow!

worminator.5174:

Booms.3952:

worminator.5174:

Booms.3952:

worminator.5174:

Ofcourse they are defeatable, even in 1v1. But it does not change the fact that its not balanced. High reward, medium/low risk. Show me another class that can destroy a whole teamfight while just casting brainless all traps at once. And because of aegis, blocks, invuln. and reflect you also have medium sustain.
Compare it with a shatter mesmer. Damage can be the same, but if you fail you are in downstate in just a few seconds, with or without ctrl+t. Thats the different.
And dont forget this incredible dmg of lb 2 with an 4 seconds cd. You can dodge it twice in 10 seconds, but what will you do then. Oh and i forgot that its piercing (without any trait).
Conclusion: User got carried by his build.

Druid, reaper, herald, tempest are all better than DH with similar “low medium risk high reward” and scrapper is about equal. Mesmer has always required higher level positioning, however it’s not “if you fail you are in downstate in a second”. With shield and continuum split as well as evade well, they actually have decent survivability. Sure you expect them to die sooner than other classes, but they also can moa, timewarp or gravity well TWICE within 5 seconds if they wanted to. And they can burn for 10-12k with almost no setup besides positioning. DH “burst”? Well maybe 10k on a squishy if you land a true shot and a test of faith in melee assuming theres no projectile deflection up at some point (there always is when someone is getting cc’d). Chrono gets countered by DH to some degree that is true. However that’s just one class and just means at least DH is decent at SOMETHING right now.

NiloyBardhan.9170:

The ideal nerf for them would be along the lines of:
1) Reduce dmg of traps by ~15%.
2) Set all traps cast-time to 1 sec and the elite one 1.5 sec.
3) Remove the daze from traps
4) Decrease the duration of the boons (7 seconds of protection, seriously?)
5) Decrease healing of the F2 skill. Without any healing power, core guardian’s F2 heals around 1600 I think and the new ones almost double of that. That should be reduced to core’s standard.
5) F3 is bugged. It blocks unblockable skills as well. Fix that please.

You would simply never see another DH again in your lifetime if those changes went through.

Denial of reality? I never denied that the other classes also have low risk, but they cannot deal the same dmg + pulsing aoe cc atonce. DH dies easily in coordinated burst, mesmer dies in the same situation without coordinated burst and double moa requires really not too much skill, but trap dh is still cheaper.:)
Druid for example has to outplay you and he cannot burst a whole team at once. Their roll is to support, and they will not be of any use if their team doesnt deals the dmg that the druid cannot make.

About Chrono (i have spoken about mesmer before, not chrono). Ofcourse Chrono provides many kinds of quality when it comes to survivability and they can have a great impact in teamfights. But atleast the player behind the pc needs just a small knowledge of pvp. I have seen so many bad guards this weekend who were able to kill ppl in teamfights. (They ignored my reflectionwall and didnt stop to spam lb skills) My problem with this build: These ppl. would have lost preaddon with viable guardbuilds. Why? Build good, gamer bad.
Now they win to easy! Why? Build broken unbalanced, gamer still bad.

I understand that DH has a low skill floor and I understand your MMR is low so you’re frustrated about them. However, you can’t nerf DH because “it’s cheese”; it actually has to be OP. DD ele turned bad players into okay players the same way DH did, but DD ele was actually overpowered as well for the top players too. DH is just not the same… Turret engis got nerfed because they made extremely bad players look GOOD, unlike DH which make extremely bad players look not that bad. So basically, L2P and don’t nerf because you don’t understand how to play the game.

Low MMR? This can only come from somebody who say about himself that he is the Nummer 1 Guardian NA. I would say iam mid MMR, maybe a bit higher. And defending an unbalanced build(you could never give us a proper argument against it) i doubt you are near top 10 guards.

booms is probably somewhere in the top 10 guards, but his moral conscience is nonexistent and his ego is as big as andromeda.

Narcarsis.5739:

I have no schedule, generally stream when I find free time ankitten ot exhausted. If you want to know when I stream the best thing to do is probably follow and set up the notification.

D/P is largely team dependent. Staff is more versatile. Both are viable although I largely prefer staff over D/P. It has better match-ups, better team fight presence, and is generally more survivable. In the end of the day it’ll depend on how you play and your team, however I don’t think Thief needs buffs at all. Small quality of life changes perhaps, but the class is fine.

Take my opinion maybe with a grain of salt, but I can say this is very accurate and pretty much on point. Thief is alright currently, but I wouldn’t be against tuning down some of the more potent abilities of other classes. Has decent matchups, but gets wrecked by dragonhunters and tempests specifically. If played right with sufficient patience/map awareness of enemy team members, thief is a potent force with alright survivability.

Perhaps it is not an issue of what the class can do, but more of an issue for newer players? The class has arguably more intricacies than most other classes.

Narcarsis.5739:

It’s good CC, with a 2 second daze and a knock-up (sweet looking uppercut).

I like where this is going