Showing Posts For Altoid.9104:
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$50 for as much content as we got with no sub is pretty good in my eyes, I don’t regret it at all. Raids + reaper alone made this worth the money I spent.
Based on your supplied video he does an average of 12-13k dps with 10s of burst that briefly tops 28k.
My ele does an average of 21k with bursts of nearly 40k dps.
snip
Another reason we need dps meters.
Tell me more
In Vale / Gorseval my jagged horrors regularly survive into a second casting, they very rarely die before then. Just starting Sabetha but I imagine the trend will continue.
[edit] Decided to take this portion out, TLDR: I feel dhuumfire isn’t worth it but without meters it becomes harder to judge.
(edited by Altoid.9104)
Yeah the only differences from my raid build are -
1) If I’m not using CPC I use Epidemic
2) Sinsiter trinkets because I’m able to get bleed/chill to 100, everything else to high 80’s.
3) Sigil of Malice instead of earth
4) Augury of Death instead of Chilling Nova unless I really need the aoe chill (maybe Sabetha? Just starting that fight)
5) 2 Trapper / 4 Nightmare for the condition duration (since using sinister trinkets)
Well also Lich, but that is mentioned in the post. I notice a huge dps increase whenever I’m using it, my minions rarely die off before I get another set out.
It uses the necros, you are the new source so it uses your stats but it uses the time remaining as the duration.
Why Chilled to the bone over Lich? Chill doesn’t do much unless you really want the CC on mobs while Lich gives you a good 10-15 stacks of bleeding that you can upkeep. I also don’t see the point of plague signet since dagger 4 is more than enough to get rid of the conditions that matter from Blood is Power. I prefer going blood over spite since the group synergy is good (also means more damage) but if you prefer spite then the extra 20% damage from Close to Death seems better than making your signets slightly better.
I also don’t agree with Dhuumfire build dealing more damage than scepter / dagger.
How is it overrated? I don’t really see people say it’s the best skill in the game or anything, just that it has it’s uses.
Well look at that, maybe people will stop saying Epidemic is overrated now.
I think they pretty much already did.
All I see is spoj talking about some exploit he’s not sharing, and nemesis saying he got some average condi dps, specifically mentioning 5k bleed, the 40 second cooldown poison whirl burst, and 10 torment stacks which is consistently mediocre compared to a burnzerker.
With jagged horrors consistent 8-10k bleeds isn’t very hard to upkeep.
Toxic crystals are pushing 1g per use now, so best case scenario I could see that setup working but I’m not willing to dump potentially hundreds of gold into food to make it work long term.
10% duration > 100 condi damage unless you are already hitting cap.
for dps, this is what i use during raids.
I just want a GM trait in blood line that makes necro bleeding the best type of bleed in the game.
Welp, guess all I can say is I disagree with the above two posts. Not much more to really say since this is opinion based.
I’m cool with trash mobs that act like a pvp encounter like the Toxic Alliance, but a boss? Nah I’m good.
Most dungeons are soloable, I don’t understand why there would need to be a solo mode. Maybe change it so the few dungeons that require a group (coe lasers for example) make you jump across and hit a switch to progress, but otherwise it’s fine.
People were also reporting that meter as being inaccurate since it only takes snapshots every second and spits back numbers that don’t match up with actual calcuated (via other methods like old school monster health / time) values. So I’m skeptical about using a snapshot method.
12-14k just from conditions, no other source of damage maybe. Thats not including a sun spirit or whirling in fields constantly. That and thats a extremely consistent number you can make even during mechanic heavy fights. We’re talking about dps, not burst.
They die after about 20 seconds, so you burst high bleeds but then you have cool down for 160 seconds. It’s really amazing for something like high lvl fractals where you burst dps, its astoundingly bad for raids where you have to maintain dps.
They do not die, can confirm it’s consistent. I raided tonight with Lich Form, I cast it once during the start of the fight and the minions stayed alive for a vast majority of the fight, I even had enough time to cast it again so I had 8 of them. I will always be running lich from now on unless there is some weird niche situation where I need something else.
I would love a personal dps meter, I don’t even care about seeing other peoples numbers. It is frustrating that I love to play Necro so much, but I am unsure exactly how much damage I am dealing. I have this feeling it is more than peoples perceptions point to, but I can’t really prove it.
Is it true that the memory reading DPS meter is legit? I would be fine using it if Anet really didn’t ban people over it.
I remember using them as a power reaper just as a diversion when I was fighting some fotm bosses and they stayed alive long enough that I was able to drop another lich mark, maybe there is more to them than we think.
Druids are a godsend in raids, but whatever makes you feel better.
I can confirm ~12k DPS with my condi Reaper and it is much more better than a power Reaper. With Ranger Sun Spirit(yes it is bugged but who cares, icebow was bugged too) I can reach easily over 15k dps in Phase 1 ,after that it drops because of Boss split mechanics. But I can confirm ~ 20k-25k DPS spikes. It is not the whole time, but Im still doing my 12k dps after that burst dmg.
How are you getting bleed stacks so high to deal that much? If it’s consistent I need to change my rotation / sigils or something. What skills do you prioritize with Scepter/dagger, and do you use Bursting / Malice?
[edit] Ahh I see , jagged horrors from Lich form. I didn’t think they stacked so much but now it makes sense. I’ll give it a shot, sucks to lose Flesh Golem for the break bar but DPS like that seems worth it.
(edited by Altoid.9104)
“public shaming” aka making sure people know they don’t associate with guilds acting in a unprofessional manner. Companies are pretty much expected to distance themselves from people like that.
/15characters…..
Too soon.
I think what DnT did was very immature, and intentionally so. But, I don’t think Anet handled this too well.
I disagree, I think they handled it perfectly. Nike was acting like an idiot and that kind of thing should not be tolerated in a professional environment. They got to test the raids, the very least they could have done is stayed quiet and let people play it before gloating about being the best things ever. If Anet doesn’t want to associate with people like that, good on them!
I think that if you want to be highly effective at range, you should stay a necromancer or go reaper condi with scepter/dagger. Reaper isn’t suppose to replace 100% of the class (even though in most cases it’s a straight upgrade).
Maybe I’m missing something but even if you can chill bomb and get Chill trait DoT … the damage from it is pretty crap. You get more damage from Bleed on Crit. Is chill a serious condi damage build with Reaper? I don’t see it. What are the traits that make this build happen? Reaper all mid and ??
How do you know that exactly? I see damage ticks on chill for somewhere around 800-1200 per second depending on condition damage / buffs. Barbed precision is only 1 stack of 3 seconds of bleed which is quite marginal and there are probably better sigils you can put in a weapon set then sigil of earth.
Chill is a good chunk of damage and you get the curses line on top of it if you are really going all out for condi dps so I don’t see this as an and / or. You get 6 second bleeds (with duration) and 800-1.2ish k chills, barbed isnt more but chill is pretty nice.
The heal is also low CD and gives back a nice chunk of life force, all while healing extra because of the drain effect. /…/ I’m not really a fan of going Dhuumfire since I felt i was giving up way too much just for some burn.
Why would you want to build so much life force, when you won’t sit in it for long anyway (no camping RS1 for burns)? Just casting RS5 and RS4 does not need much time/life force?
The main reason I like Your soul is mine is that it’s a low CD heal that heals a really good chunk of life, so I can get quite a few out rather than having to wait 30 seconds or so. I don’t like consume conditions because of the added blind effect and because I don’t want to screw up and eat conditions I would rather be sending back for more damage.
The life force thing is just an added bonus really, I like timing RS 4/5 for those times where I know I am going to eat damage and would rather have my second lifepool take the hit instead. Also, in order to get RS4 in every CPC cast you need to use it every other CPC, which means there is a window where you can flash into shroud to absorb a hit. So the life force generation while not a intergral part of the build is still useful for keeping yourself up with minimal dps downtime.
It depends on the content you are doing. I duo’d Molten Boss level 99 with a daredevil yesterday using a viper/sinister scepter/dagger condition build and I could not imagine how long it would have taken with a power build. Similarly, if I am soloing a dungeon or doing dungeons / low level fotm where burst damage is king then I prefer to use a power based build.
Raids also aren’t out yet, I think your best bet is to make 2 sets of gear so you can switch out whenever you want.
I disagree with signet of suffering. Signet of spite is such a low uptime of conditions (20 seconds of 2 bleed/poison every 60 seconds) and the healing signet isn’t that great. Closer to Death isn’t amazing but a 20% increase of damage is still a 20% increase of damage, scepter has SOME direct damage and it’s better than any other option in my opinion since a condi build going Viper / Sinister still gives a good chunk of power.
I prefer to go reaper and take shout CD reduction, that way if you don’t need epidemic you can use suffer as a extra way to transfer conditions and gives you better chill uptime, or Rise for the 50% damage reduction. The heal is also low CD and gives back a nice chunk of life force, all while healing extra because of the drain effect. Decimate defenses = more bleed stacks and deathly chill is still extra damage even if it sometimes get overwritten (you can apply tons of chill just through spite, Chilled to the bone, – RS 5 and suffer). You also get reaper shroud 4 which is crazy good for damage burst in Corrosive Poison Cloud (those poison bolts stack FAST). I’m not really a fan of going Dhuumfire since I felt i was giving up way too much just for some burn.
The second dagger for corruption stacks isn’t a bad idea at all, I might steal that for open world.
His ways of presenting his arguments are the reason I’ve decided to do my best to work against him.
His method worked though, at this point you can complain all you want about how mean of a person he is but that means absolutely nothing since what matters is the game itself. I can’t even believe you openly admitting to “work against him” solely based on him acting smug. Well, I could if you kept your attacks focused on his attitude and less on the substance of the argument.
Trying to counter his point by calling him a meany is pretty lame.
How is his method flawed? What is better than taking in game dps values to check the theory dps that everyone tends to throw around and discriminate against classes? We just had someone in this thread make a crazy statement that Engineer burn alone outdamages a condi necro with absolutely nothing to back him up except some spreadsheet (specifically that and burn damage coefficients) he saw. That kind of thing is extremely normal and it doesn’t at all reflect what happens in game.
You can dislike nemesis for all the drama if you want, I have no problem with that (even though it caused lots of people to watch the video, myself included). However if you are going to call his method flawed I think that is pretty unfair considering results matter more than theory in a MMO, especially when theory is so far off what is actually happening in game.
I don’t think there is an agenda, I have a hard time imaging Spoj or Nike saying that necros are subpar at <x> for some evil reason to bring the class down while putting in work testing builds for a game I assume they love to play. I just think that the spreadsheet stuff needs to be reigned in while letting in game numbers take center stage.
Can you link a video that shows an engineer consistently getting burns that high? I have looked around since I’ve heard people make that statement but haven’t found it, maybe I suck at searching but even in guides for condition engi I don’t see that many stacks.
Burning deals about 3x the damage of bleeding or poison. Meaning an engineer who can keep up say 10 burning is dealing the same damage as a Necromancer who could theoretically keep up 30 bleeding/poison. Now, will they maintain that high of burning? Obviously not, nor will a Necromancer maintain very high bleeding/poison.
From my experience I maintain 20-30 bleeding, anywhere from 5-9 poison (with bursts of 30+), 7-9 torment and chill (also damages). This is sustain, not burst excluding the 30+ poison stacks. So I call BS on your statement, can you provide a video showing a engineer sustaining high uptime on burns? Enough to actually deal more than necro condition.
The burning that they stack faster than we stack our damaging conditions out damages our entire build, not including the extra conditions and direct damage they do. Necromancers have literally one of the worst condition damage builds in the game when it comes to raw damage.
Can you link a video that shows an engineer consistently getting burns that high? I have looked around since I’ve heard people make that statement but haven’t found it, maybe I suck at searching but even in guides for condition engi I don’t see that many stacks.
(In reference to Tzeh Pesh) Exactly, blanket statements get thrown around way too much and then when pushed for the variance in damage, spreadsheet numbers are said or nothing at all. How much weaker is Necro condi vs a Engineer / Guardian / Warrior etc in game? IF we are talking 20k vs 10k that’s a giant difference, if it’s more like a 1k difference that’s not a huge deal.
That’s the thing though, people use theory dps to talk about a class on the dps tier list. 25k Rev vs 14k necro dps, sure you can say those values aren’t reasonable and it’s just theoretical but then when it comes to in game values are you implying that necro deals 56% of the damage a rev will deal in most in game situations? Thats why I was saying I think the spreadsheets are flawed, most other games with meters use the spreadsheets as a base then calculate real in game numbers to determine where classes actually fall on a list. I haven’t seen that for this game, everything seems to stop at the spreadsheet part and then it gets advertised.
I made the mistake of thinking GW2 was like those other games with in game evidence to back up the numbers, which is why I think there is such a big fall out on this topic. Especially since the spreadsheet numbers are so far away from in game values, and they don’t accurately show how one class will perform compared to another overall.
[edit] Furthermore, in other games when people say “X class deals Y DPS” I usually get really close to that value, even if it’s assuming perfect rotations. In this game I see people say values and the real value is all over the place.
(edited by Altoid.9104)
I’m talking about the adds that spawn when she is at low life on tier 100. Those don’t die in seconds, they take a long while to put down.
It’s because I disagree with what you said, and if you can really melt the mai trin adds down fast that’s pretty amazing. I was simply giving examples of where I found it to be pretty good, but I don’t think it’s a must have for every single fight. It’s a single utility skill with a huge amount of damage potential that you can easily switch in or out depending on the fight. In a group with other condition users (high level fotm) it becomes MUCH better since within the first few seconds of a fight you could potentially spread a crap ton of damage.
They really dont though. Even in frac 100 the trash still die fast. Its only the bosses that have ridiculous armour and health scaling.
But that was my entire point. Epidemic doesnt make the class. Its situationally powerful. And its overrated because of that.
I’ve done 100 4 times now, twice as a power build and twice condition. A well placed epidemic is nice against the initial trash pull but of course it’s not 100% needed, but it certainly shines during the actual boss fight when the adds come out.
Uncategorized: Shaman / Ogre have a crap ton of HP and being able to epidemic on cd is a big deal. Ok on 4 golems at end at high level, they have enough hp that I personally feel its ok.
Grawl: Useful in initial pull, but extremely useful when lava adds pop out.
Swamp: It’s ok on moss, but who cares since people just bug him out anyway at this point.
Cliffside: Very useful when dealing with seals on both sides, tons of adds with a solid amount of hp. You can get off some nice condi spreads before they even reach the party.
Molten Facility: Useful on all of the trash pulls, useless on boss room.
Snowblind: This one is iffy, depends on how many elementals the group pulls but overall I think it’s worth taking as long as someone is able to group them up. Useless on boss.
Aetherblade: Epidemic is unblockable, the stupid golems at the end get the lightning shield constantly. Very good here with a bit of coordination or luck.
Molten Boss: useless
Thaumnova: Pretty solid for portal mobs, harder to avoid since the portal pull range seems to get ridiculous. Useless on boss
Aquatic: Useful because of all the jellyfish but who cares, this one is lame anyway.
Urban: Very useful up until boss, the adds deal alot of damage and don’t go splat right away.
Solid Ocean: Again useful because of all the adds that stick around, being able to take those annoying things out faster is always a plus.
i burst 7-8k poison ticks too though with CPC + RS4 using Viper armor/weapons and sinister trinkets, I think that counts as a hybrid in terms of stats since I have quite abit of power as well. I haven’t felt like I’ve needed defensive stats at any point on necro, but that’s more of a grey area and I respect the use of toughness or vitality if that fits your playstyle more.
I said it in the other thread but I’ve seen bleeds on single target (pug setting) in the 6-7k range, so I don’t think it’s entirely worth it to just disregard bleeding over staying in RS for burns rather than just go condi scepter. That and if you rely on RS 1,4 and 5 for condition damage you are giving up a huge chunk of damage from bleeds, Torment (scepter 3, that’s 7 stacks under most situations) poison (CPC and scepter third hit string), chill uptime (Suffer / Dagger blind if you take that trait / Chill to the bone for example) and basically any other utility.
I just don’t see going RS for dhuumfire as worth it considering how much you have to give up to maintain those burn stacks.
(edited by Altoid.9104)
Fractals aren’t 100% about bosses, and in later levels the trash has a decent chunk of HP to work through. So yeah you switch epidemic out for most boss fights, but for trash it’s worth having it on. Once you go through and get whatever achievements you want it basically becomes worthless though, since you only need to run swamp / molten duo for daily achievements. That and the specific level dailies are in the low range so you are better off just bringing a burst build most of the time.
Full Asc Sinister Condi Reaper was a massive disappointment in PvE. 5k Burns, 1.1k Chills, 2.3k Poisons, 1.5k Bleeds was the highest I’ve gotten so far. I think I’m better off sticking with zerker even if mobs have Husk-tier toughness. RS1 needs like one offensive filler cond or something because you ain’t getting any bleeds except from the trait and staff/scepter and that’s awful. Whenever my RS emptied and a boss wasn’t dead and I ended up in Staff or Scepter/Dagger I could hear my sweet dps running away screaming and dying in a corner.
The highest I’ve gotten is about 1.1k chills, 7-8k poison (burst, sustain probably closer to you), 6-7k bleeds. The chill time is constantly up (if i don’t take epidemic or rise, so for boss fights that I don’t need extra damage reduction as much) and I don’t have any source of burn. This isn’t in an optimal group setting, just doing pugs.runs.
This is the build I use, I tweak a few things depending on the fight but overall I prefer shout cd reduction over chilling nova.
(edited by Altoid.9104)
Spreadsheets are not why people think necro is bad. The reality of the classes previous lack of utility was the reason. Had nothing to do with dps and it had nothing to do with spreadsheets. You dont calculate utility on spreadsheets.
I have heard that Necro deals kitten damage / is the lowest dps in the game more times than I can count. I’ve been playing since Beta, and I use to think it was true because of how much people talked about dps calculations. So maybe you aren’t one of those people, but then I just saw you say how terrible Necro condition damage is in another ongoing thread when someone asked about it.
(edited by Altoid.9104)
I don’t agree with that, I think the best (or at least most accurate) method is taking a video and manually calculating dps the hard way. Spreadsheets have their place, but I think that place gets completely lost without a meter to keep them grounded.
That’s the thing, do the listed numbers even reflect the difference in each classes effectiveness as people seem to be claiming? Can you really point to a Rev and say his cap is higher than a Necromancer by (let’s say) 10k, so that means the Rev for the most part is going to heavily out dps a Necromancer. Or is it more that the Rev might at most deal 1-2k dps more over the duration of a fight? That is a HUGE difference and is one reason I don’t like spreadsheets having so much sway when dps meters don’t exist.
I just saw in another thread someone say that Necromancers condition damage is weak compared to other classes, but is that backed up by anything other than spreadsheets? Again, is the difference slight or is it a huge gap as implied by Rev sheet dps?
Use CPC and then do RS 4 inside a mob for a huge burst of poison damage.
So has there been any video evidence of values coming close to those that the spreadsheets show for “perfect” dps? I remember reading that Rev can reach 25k dps, Condi engineer 20k, dragon hunter high teens (I think i saw 18k or something) and elementalists (no icebow) still high as well. Has this ever been proven on Bloom or any other boss in the game? Has anyone even gotten close?
If not then I don’t really understand what the point of the spreadsheets are. In other mmo’s I play(ed) dps meters were present so everyone had a very real idea of what numbers to expect. The optimal rotation for each class was found out, and through application I was able to get at least somewhat close to those ideal numbers. If no one can actually prove say a rev can do even 20k dps sustain on a immobile low-mid armor boss then I have to side with Nemesis on this one. Even then, this game seems to have a HUGE variance when it comes to condition vs power due to armor, and dps uptime in general compared to wow and ff14 (for example).
In FF14 when I raid, once I get on a boss I do my optimal opening burst and then sustain a pretty high dps for the majority of the fight. Even when mechanics are rough for melee I can generally keep my rotation up. Thing is, my rotation / gear almost never changes from fight to fight so my numbers are almost always going to stay consistent even if mechanics have me disengage from the boss for a brief period of time. In this game the damage values are all over the place. Someone can be doing crazy amounts of damage on bloom and suddenly they move on to another boss and they are barely dealing anything at all. So while I can see the point of having a spreadsheet value for theorycrafting max dps, I just feel it completely falls flat in this game for the most part.
(edited by Altoid.9104)
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