Guild Wars 2

Refia Montes.3205:

The number of people thinking that Mirage Cloak has worse mobility than a normal dodge is way too high. Remember you can still move during cloak, and having superspeed allows you to cover more distance than normal.

The number of people forgetting that superspeed doesn’t work with backpedalling or strafing is way too high.

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Some of my key points from playing mirage, not limited to this build:
Pro:

• Very easy for mirage to stomp opponents
• Infinite horizon allows you to tweak utilities a bit, and synergize well with BI
• Jaunt synergize well with GS, allow you to dash in and out like a thief to reset your burst even if you fail
• Jaunt + mantra of resolve allow you to move out of inspiration, though you will still have difficulty when focused or fight condi thief (like inspiration anyway after the nerf).
• Super speed is handy if you want to leave battle to reset, especially with blink/jaunt

Con:

• Nobody ever got tricked by clones unlike what dev feared, and this is day 1!
• Ambush rarely got used with the short time window, should be around 3 seconds
• Ambush from clones goes completely unnoticed, hence I just discard infinite horizon. Scepter clone is kinda alright but does fall short when there’re so many projectile denial.
• False Oasis is too slow and the overall heal is too low for a skill of 30s CD.
• Almost all utilities are not comparable to what we have on base mesmer, they give too little for the CDs.
• Jaunt is annoyingly short for an elite skill, basically mesmer still can’t live without blink
• Axe ranges are wonky and all 3 skills hardly hit without some significant HP sacrifice. Skill 1 is close range that’s difficult to stack on opponent, skill 2’s clone died the moment it spawns in enemy AoE, skill 3 misses almost all the time if opponent move out of original position (very bad design!!!)

Pretty much this. The only success I’ve also had is running jaunt and mantra of resolve so that I don’t have to run inspiration. I was able to run dueling/chaos/mirage condi and not have it be horrible in wvw but who knows if it is because people just panicked at seeing new particle effects.

1. Ambush is way too short of a cd. It is pretty much dodge and press 1 or you don’t get your ambush. (And even worse, hope that you don’t get interrupted/clones killed if you try to delay your ambush for as long as possible).

2. Mirage mirror time is too short. I was trying to play around with mirage mirrors but the duration is so short that you rather have to immediately chase after you create it or use a jaunt charge just to get it. It seems like having to waste an elite charge to get a blur is horrible trait off. There is no tactical use of it at a 5 second duration. You pretty much need to run at it or you might as well not have made it.

3. Axe 3 needs some type of immobilize or cripple or some type of faster activation time. Maybe it is because of wvw lag but almost every time I tried to use this skill the target would already be out of the circle of clones by the time we all teleported there. Axe ambush was also really slow moving projectiles so I pretty much stopped bothering to use ambush on anything but scepter.

4. Jaunt range is too short. Really no other comment then this. The only use for jaunt is additional condi cleanse to supplement mantra of resolve (but really, most of the time resolve can just do it all) or to run at a mirage mirror (and honestly this was painful to think I was using 2 resources to get one blur effect).

Really I’ve only tried condi PU and power ambush. I guess I’ll continue to try other specs but Mirage is pretty much as constraining as I thought it would be with its focus on clones and very little production/sustain of them (I don’t count that first trait that gives you one clone if you have 2 clones and use a deception skill. The cds on all the deception skills are way too long for that and I would rather use deceptive evasion+energy).

Daishi.6027:

Also confirmed no ambush attacks on phantasms. (which we kinda already figured right?)

I think people were holding out because the trait said illusion and not clone. They seemed to go into a lot of effort to be specific with other traits so maybe they just missed the tooltip on this one.

I just looked over the video again. Phantasm did NOT use the ambush skill. 1:04:32 on the twitch video. It got the particle effect but it didn’t attack.

Edit Oops, this elite spec guild chat video.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/167733328

FJSAMA.2867:

And thats fine. Chrono didnt offer a dps upgrade to mesmer but a support instead, and chrono is fine.

For PVE,
My only problem with this is, following your logic, why are we getting a SECOND support elite specialization? How does this change mesmer play style to be unique? There are condition traits all over the place so why aren’t we a condi dps specialization and not a second support specialization.

For PVP,
Sure extra blinks are nice (even though they aren’t stun breaks) but how do the traits have synergy to keep or even sustain your clones that’ll be destroyed instantly by random aoes? If they don’t well then you still have phantasms, cool but what is the point of even being mirage if you can’t even use ambushes (assuming that ambush doesn’t work with phantasms but I guess we’ll see tomorrow). Does having extra blinks compensate for the lack of continuum split and/or OP utility of shield block?

I’m pretty disappointed with GS and sword ambushes. I was hoping out that they would somehow be decent enough to make pve power ok but that doesn’t seem to be the case. They might be interesting in pvp but I kinda doubt that since there is so much random aoe clears but I guess there is always tomorrow to see if it works out.

I agree with everyone else that we should have received completely different F abilities. The core selling point of Mirage is Ambush (our first class trait), which requires our clones to stay up, yet we have shatters which destroy these clones. Though I guess this goes into the longer problem of mesmer for the past couple of years where there is this weird class combination between burst (shatter) and sustained dps (phantasms). It is like our class design is trying to fit both but by being jack of all trades we aren’t really excelling in either. (If you bring up recent PvE raid benchmark increases, notice how mesmers are still at the lower end only higher than d/d thief and condi thief… BARELY. These benchmarks don’t include your phantasms also getting owned by boss raid aoes which will drop your dps.)

Honestly, I was hoping with Mirage that mesmer would clearly just be sustain or burst instead of this weird hodgepodge of both, especially if ambushes only work with clones (the most easily destroyed illusion).

Great find Dethl! I’ll add it to the main post. I am pretty disappointed by that elite. 3 charges, 20 sec recharge, 400 range? Ugh. I guess it has condi removal but that is like a short hop with less range than sword 3.

Ugh sorry that the edits are taking so long, running into the message body length limit.

Here is the updated mantra that definitely wont fit in the first post.

Updated Mantra of Resolve (2.5s cast, 12s cd)
Same as original and Gain resistance when this skill is fully charged.
• Resistance: 2s
• Number of Casts: 2
Power Cleanse (1s cd)
• Conditions removed: 3
• Number of Targets: 5
• Maximum Count: 2
• Count Recharge: 24s
• Radius: 240

Ambush Skills:
Staff Ambush: Chaos Vortex (1s cast, 1s cd)
Ambush. Release a vortex of chaos energy that inflicts conditions on foes and grant
boons to allies.
• Dmg: 216
• Confusion( 2 stacks, 9.25s): 290 Dmg on Skill use, 1175 Dmg
• Torment (2 stacks, 7.5s): 1288 Dmg, 1288 if moving (Typo)
• Fury (3s)
• Might (3 stacks for 8s)
Axe Ambush: Imaginary Axes (.5s cast, 1s cd)
Ambush: Release phantasmal axes that seek out the nearest target after a short delay.
• Dmg (2x) :214
• Seek Range: 400
• Confusion (1 stack, 7.5s): 127 Dmg on Skill Use, 392 Dmg
• Range 200
Scepter Ambush: Ether Barrage (1.5s cast, 1s cd)
Ambush. Blink back a short distance and launch a barrage of chaos orbs at your foe, inflicting either confusion or torment each hit. Condition duration halved for clones.
• Dmg: (5x) 710
• Confusion: 1 stack 7.5s
• Torment: 1 stack 6s
• Shadowstep Distance: 200
• Range: 1200

Also great catches on the utility skills! I’ll definitely edit it and credit you later tonight AresFyra.3570!

Hey!

I just wanted to say that I was wrong and he did mouse over the heal and one of the utilities but it was a fraction of a second at 2:09:32. I’ll update the main post. He might have also moused over a second utility but I’ll have time to watch the video again later tonight.

Edit Thanks to AresFyra.3570 for finding the stats, updated mantra, scepter ambush skill, and utilities.
Edit 2 Thanks to Dethl.2875 for finding the range on the elite!
Edit 3 Mirage Wiki is up! thanks everyone for finding the initial stuff on Mirage!
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage

“Power 1000 Condi Dmg 1225 Condi Duration 52.33% and Master of Misdirection."

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOr-LO38Mts
From 2:07:03-2:14:20 for Mesmer.
Second Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqj-yOPEudA
Starting at 54:31-56:30

Ctrl+F for the known ambush skills. Word body limit prevents them from being added to this post.

Axe Auto:
1. Lacerating Chop (.5s cast)
Inflict bleeding on your target.
• Dmg:178
• Bleed (1 stack, 3s): 291 Dmg
• Number of Targets: 3
• Range:130
2. Ethereal Chop (.5s cast)
Inflict Torment on your target.
• Dmg:178
• Torment (1 stack, 3s): 217 Dmg, 433 if Moving
• Number of Targets: 3
• Range: 130
3. Mirror Strikes (.5s cast)
Inflict Bleeding and torment on your target.
• Dmg (2x):356
• Bleeding (1 stack, 9.25s):873 Dmg
• Torment (1 stack, 9.25s): 650 Dmg, 1299 if Moving
• Number of Targets: 3
• Range 130

Axe 2: Lingering Thoughts (.5s cd)
Spin forward and strike multiple times, inflicting conditions and leaving a mirage at
your starting position. If an enemy is near the mirage when it expires, a clone is
summoned.
• Dmg (3x): 426
• Cripple (3 stacks): 1.5s
• Torment(3 stacks): 6s. 1299 Dmg, 2597 if moving
• Number of targets: 3
• Count Recharge: 8s
• Combo Finisher: Whirl
• Range: 130

Axe 3: Axes of Symmetry (.75s cast, 10s cd)
You and all your axe clones shadowstep to a random location around your target
and apply confusion. This attack breaks enemy targeting and your illusions change
focus to the targeted foe.
• Dmg: 533
• Player confusion (5 stacks, 7.5s): 631 Dmg on Skill Use, 1960 Dmg
• Clone confusion (1 stack, 7.5s): 127 Dmg on Skill Use, 392 Dmg
• Evade: .75s
• Combo Finisher: Leap
• Range: 600

Specialization Trait:
Mirage Cloak
Gain Mirage Cloak instead of dodge rolling. Ambush skills become available for a
short time whenever you gain Mirage Cloak. Gains access to Deception skills.
• Mirage Cloak (.75s): Evade incoming attacks.
• Ambush Attack Window: 1.25s

First Traits
1. Self Deception: Using a deception skill will summon a clone if you have exactly 2 illusions active.
2. Renewing Oasis: Gain regeneration when Mirage Cloak is active. The duration of damaging conditions is reduced while you are regenerating.
• Regen (4s).
• Condi duration reduction: 20%.
3. Riddle of Sand: When entering combat, your first Ambush attack applies confusion. This ability refreshes when you use a Shatter skill.
• Confusion (2 stacks, 7.5s)

Minor Trait: Nomad’s Endurance
Shatter skills give vigor, which grants condition dmg.
• Vigor (3 sec): Grants 150 condi dmg and 50% endurance regeneration.
• Attribute Adjust: 150

Second Traits
1. Shards of Glass: Shattered Illusions have a chance of becoming Mirage Mirrors (33%).
Reformed Mirage Mirror (20s cd): Your shattered illusion reforms into a mirror.
Touching the mirror shatters it, granting Mirage Cloak to you and weakening foes.
• Dmg: 80
• Weakness: 6s
• Mirage Cloak: 1s, evade.
• Number of Targets: 5
• Radius: 180
2. Mirage Mantle:
Gain Protection when Mirage Cloak Ends.
• Protection (1.5s)
3.Mirrored Axes:
Reduces recharge of Axe skills. Axe skills generate an additional phantasmal axe.
Recharge reduction 20%.
Phantasmal Seeking Axe: Release a phantasmal axe that seeks out a target after a
delay, inflicting conditions.
• Dmg:107
• Seek Range: 400
• Torment: kitten
• Range: 200

Minor Trait: Speed of Sand:
Gain Superspeed (.75s) when you gain Mirage Cloak.

Third Traits
1. Infinite Horizon
When you gain Mirage Cloak, the trait is also applied to all of your illusions.
2. Elusive Mind
Dodging breaks stun and removes conditions.
• Conditions removed: 1
• Breaks Stun
3. Dune Cloak
Use Sand Shards when you gain Mirage Cloak. Conditions applied to bleeding foes
have increased duration (20%).
Sand Shards- Strike nearby foes, inflicting bleeding.
• Dmg: 133
• Bleeding (2 stacks, 9.25s): 1746 Dmg
• Number of Targets: 5
• Radius: 180

Utilities
False Oasis (.75s cast, 30s cd)
Deception. Create a mirage at your current location and heal over time. When the mirage expires, it spawns a mirage mirror.
• Healing:1620
• Vigor: 5s, 150 condi dmg, 50% end regen
• Pulses: 5
• Mirage Duration: 3s
• Interval: 1s
Sand Through Glass (30s cd)
Deception. Evade backward and leave behind a mirage mirror.
• Distance: 300
• Evade: 0.5s
• Breaks Stun
Crystal Sands (.25s cast, 20s cd)
Deception. Draw in shards of crystal sand that confuse foes they pass through on their way to your targeted location. The shards form a Mirage Mirror upon reaching their destination. (Typo)
• Dmg (6x): 636
• Confusion (1 stack, 7.5s): 127 Dmg on skill use, 392 Dmg
• Range: 900
Elite Skill: Jaunt (.5s cd)
Deception. Shadowstep to a target location and confuse nearby foes.
• Dmg: 266
• Confusion: 3 stacks, 7.5s
• Conditions Removed: 1
• Maximum Count: 3
• Count Recharge: 20s
• Radius: 180
• Combo Finisher: Leap
• Range: 400

Don’t forget the superior sigil of energy nerf to shatter mesmers on top of bunker mesmers.

“Sigil of Energy: the functionality of this Sigil is changing slightly. Instead of granting 50 endurance on weapon swap, Sigil of Energy will instead grant 5 seconds of vigor to the player with the usual 9 second ICD. This change only applies to PvP.”

If you cancel the cast of well of precognition, the well goes on full cooldown instead of a 5 second cooldown.

Another bug, if you cancel the cast of well of precognition, it goes on full cd instead of 5 sec cd.

After using continuum shift…has anyone experienced rally tag bugs so that you don’t rally after a player you’ve damaged prior to/during the continuum shift?

It is almost as if every damage tag is reset after you’ve completed a continuum shift.

Quickness still affects the distance that movement skills such as leap travel.

For the guardian, if you use the new guardian elite “Feel My Wrath” to give yourself quickness and then use Greatsword 3, Leap of Faith, you move at a reduced distance similar to how it was before the patch.

Vieux P.1238:

All looks good on paper.. Let’s hope it works for real this time.

Though all the buffs look amazing…I have to agree with this. When is the last time we had a patch where something didn’t break? lol

F5 is already getting an increase in CD that they said at the POI but they didn’t say how much they are increasing it by.

Builds that I’m looking at will probably be:

For full dps shatter -Dom/Chrono/Illusions …Dueling instead of Illusions if Chrono traits can’t replace the generation of DE.

Lockdown will probably be Dom/Chaos/Chrono.

Condi Shatter ..Duel/Illusions/Chrono (Illusions feels like pretty much the condi shatter line now)

Bunker Support – Chaos/Inspiration/Chrono (With wells/boon spreading)

The utility of F5 as well as potential reset on phantasms/clone generation in Chrono just gives more utility than the Illusions line and benefits every single possible build too much that there doesn’t seem to be a reason atm to not pick it as a trait line. :/

Really…it feels like there is no reason not to go into the chronomancer line because every build can benefit from the rewind effect from F5 or from the phantasm respawn trait that is in the line.

Outside of the traitline, wells are interesting because it makes support/bunker in spvp more interesting for mesmers and gives us substantial increase in tagging for wvw/pve.
More than likely, there will be a well trait similar to glamours..but I’m a little sad that the elite isn’t a well…even though it is named a well lol.

Dulfy also has amazing screenshots of the tooltips:

http://dulfy.net/2015/05/01/gw2-chronomancer-points-of-interest-livestream-notes/

This is just a copy and paste from my post from Chaos Archangel’s Chronomancer Stream Alert thread…just thought it would be easier to see here. Also, I included the shield skills. As he mentioned before..all numbers are subject to change…

Based on the live stream… I didn’t see the Well of Calamity used…other wells are listed below.

Continuum Split
60 sec cd (which he already said has been increased but didn’t specify by how much)
Prevents point capture
Duration 3 seconds

Destroy all your illusions and create a rift in the time space continuum. When it expires you will be revert back to this point with your previous health, endurance and skill recharges. Duration increases per illusion shattered.

Assuming that illusionary persona was baseline when he did the video, each clone (mirror images and one for himself) increased the duration of the continuum by one second for a total of 6 seconds on his video. Like others have mentioned…the continuum can be destroyed.

Also I just noticed that there is a slight typo in the tooltip and that there should be a comma after endurance that isn’t there…

For wells: (Numbers are off because we don’t know what gear he was wearing and he also had lots of food/utility buffs). The elite well has no classification..but the other wells are “Wells.”

Gravity Well (Elite)
1 second cast time
120 sec cd

Create a powerful well that warps space in an area, pulling enemies to the center and granting stability to allies. When it expires, the well floats enemies caught in it.

Pulse damage: 272
Final Damage: 908
2 Stacks of Stab for 10 seconds
Pull: 50
Float 2 seconds
Number of targets: 5
Pulses: 3
Duration: 3 seconds
Radius: 240
Combo Field: Dark
Range: 900

Well of Action
3/4 Second cast time
30 second CD

Create a well of delayed time, damaging and slowing foes. When the well expires, time snaps back, granting quickness to allies.

Pulse damage: 296
Slow: 1 Second
Quickness: 3 Seconds
Number of Targets: 5
Pulse: 3
Duration: 3 Seconds
Radius: 240
Combo Field: Ethereal
Range: 900

Well of Recall
1 Second Cast Time
45 Second CD

Create a wall of memory which speeds allied recharge. When it expires, it steals memories from foes, damaging and chilling them.

Final damage: 581
Alacrity: 1 second
Chill: 5 seconds
Number of targets: 5
Pulse: 3
Duration: 3 seconds
Radius: 240
Combo Field: Ethereal
Range: 900

Well of Eternity
3/4 second cast time
20 second CD

Create a well that rewinds time, granting vigor to allies. When it expires, the well heals all allies in the area.

Initial self-heal: 2604
Ending heal: 3924
Vigor: 2 seconds
Number of targets: 5
Pulses: 3
Duration: 3 seconds
Radius: 240
Combo Field: Light
Range: 900

Shield 5: Tides of Time
1/2 second cast time
40 second CD

Launch a wave of temporal energy that damages and stops enemies it passes through and buffs allies. The wave then returns to you. Touching the returning wave reduces the recharge of this skill.

Damage: 451
Quickness: 1.5 seconds
Stun: 1 second
Recharge reduced: 10 seconds
Blocks Missiles
Combo Field: Ethereal
Range: 600

Shield 4: Echoes of Memory
2.25 cast time
30 sec cd

Block the next incoming attack. When the skill ends, summon a phantasm that slows enemies and grants alacrity to allies. If an attack is blocked, Deja Vu is usable for a short time.

Damage: 430
Alacrity: 1 second
Slow: 3 seconds
Number of bounces: 3
Duration: 10 seconds
Range: 900

Deja Vu
2.25 second recharge

Block the next incoming attack. When this skill ends, summon a phantasm that slows enemies and grants alacrity to allies.

Damage: 430
Alacrity: 1 second
Slow: 3 seconds
Number of bounces: 3
Range: 900

Based on the live stream… I didn’t see the Well of Calamity used…other wells are listed below.

Continuum Split
60 sec cd (which he already said has been increased but didn’t specify by how much)
Prevents point capture
Duration 3 seconds

- Destroy all your illusions and create a rift in the time space continuum. When it expires you will be revert back to this point with your previous health, endurance and skill recharges. Duration increases per illusion shattered.

Assuming that illusionary persona was baseline when he did the video, each clone (mirror images and one for himself) increased the duration of the continuum by one second for a total of 6 seconds on his video. Like others have mentioned…the continuum can be destroyed.

Also I just noticed that there is a slight typo in the tooltip and that there should be a comma after endurance that isn’t there…

For wells: (Numbers are off because we don’t know what gear he was wearing and he also had lots of food/utility buffs). The elite well has no classification..but the other wells are “Wells.”

Gravity Well (Elite)
1 second cast time
120 sec cd

Create a powerful well that warps space in an area, pulling enemies to the center and granting stability to allies. When it expires, the well floats enemies caught in it.
Pulse damage: 272
Final Damage: 908
2 Stacks of Stab for 10 seconds
Pull: 50/Float 2 seconds
Number of targets: 5
Pulses: 3
Duration: 3 seconds
Radius: 240
Combo Field: Dark
Range: 900

Well of Action
3/4 Second cast time
30 second CD

Create a well of delayed time, damaging and slowing foes. When the well expires, time snaps back, granting quickness to allies.

Pulse damage: 296
Slow: 1 Second
Quickness: 3 Seconds
Number of Targets: 5
Pulse: 3
Duration: 3 Seconds
Radius: 240
Combo Field: Ethereal
Range: 900

Well of Recall
1 Second Cast Time
45 Second CD

Create a wall of memory which speeds allied recharge. When it expires, it steals memories from foes, damaging and chilling them.

Final damage: 581
Alacrity: 1 second
Chill: 5 seconds
Number of targets: 5
Pulse: 3
Duration: 3 seconds
Radius: 240
Combo Field: Ethereal
Range: 900

Well of Eternity
3/4 second cast time
20 second CD

Create a well that rewinds time, granting vigor to allies. When it expires, the well heals all allies in the area.

Initial self-heal: 2604
Ending heal: 3924
Vigor: 2 seconds
Number of targets: 5
Pulses: 3
Duration: 3 seconds
Radius: 240
Combo Field: Light
Range: 900

The Rime-Rimmed Mariner’s Rebreather item aura does not affect clones. This makes it very apparent which mesmer is the real one.

-How to reproduce the issue: Any mesmer with the rebreather underwater when summoning clones will not show the aura.

Yeah it is interesting that you mention changing to a phantasm build to increase aoe pressure against Engis. My question was oriented toward burst pressure/dps pressure with a standard shatter vs without a standard shatter rather than a utility boon removal perspective. In the video it didn’t appear like you guys had any troubles with focus firing when there was a target called but it makes me wonder if it would have been easier on a roaming defender to be more burst focused than utility focused.

Also Chaos Archangel, I loved seeing the moa representation regardless of how you think you did with it!

Oh and the build you posted…maybe I’m a little confused but it says it is a CI build but there is no CI?

Wow! That was a nice victory against their team. Just out of curiosity, was there no standard shatter because of people choosing the specs they are used to or to just shake things up?

Haven’t been able to play much this patch…but has anyone tested if the reflect pull counts as an interrupt for the target? If so…this can totally be abused by lockdown mesmers lol.

Sounds fun! Sign me up with my mesmer’s name (Isis).

“Why would you burst your whole nut of conditions in the first push.”

That is the response you gave on our ability to stack torment. I explained how it can be countered with 2 condition removal. (Depending on your condition removal unlike other condition spamming classes).

“You’d use the auto attacks to force out cleansing, then you would apply as much conditions as you can. “

Well obviously that is what all condition builds will want to do if you can’t continually spam many conditions. How long will you auto attack in Scepter to apply enough torment pressure to force a condition removal without using defensive cooldowns? 5 stacks (6 seconds- assuming you have all clones up)? 10 stacks (10 seconds –assuming your first clone lives through 4 seconds of auto attacking). That is a LONG time spent auto attacking assuming your clones are still up and even longer if they don’t die.
Once you use any defensive ability suddenly your “burst” decreases (minus blink and mass invis) and is up for condition removal before you can achieve this “burst”. If you do use blink or mass invis there goes more active defense for after your burst.

“We had plenty of Torment from the block as it is. That is easy to dodge however, and fixing the Scepter is not adding Torment to the auto attacks and clones.”

I never said that Torment on auto attack was a good fix to scepter. I just stated that Torment on autoattack is not as OP end of the world as everyone is making it out to be especially in relative to staff 1 or other condition spamming classes.

“The weapon is able to produce 11 stacks of Torment on its own. 8 of which are from you. That already starts to hurt.”

In the slightly less amount of time the grenade Engi kit is able to stack Poison, Vul, Chill, Blind, Bleed, Burn procs, and additional bleed procs not only to a SINGLE target but to multiple targets.

“I guarantee we’ll see cries from other professions about Mesmer and Torment (and we’ll see cries about our new Staff trait fix). And we’ll be nerfed, or maybe the whole condition will. Again. Confusion anyone?”

People will cry about anything and everything. PU has been cried about for a long time now and still no “fixes”. If they give torment the same fix that confusion got it would be much less impactful as it would only be tied to three abilities (Scepter 1, Scepter 2, and the GM Trait). The confusion nerf impacted many different builds instead of one weapon.

I feel like it was you though if you were in [Agg] on FA. Sword/pistol+sword/torch stealth power shatter. The only reason I remember so clearly was because I had never seen a Charr mesmer up until that point lol.

What if they do have condition removal?

Then you no longer have clones up due to shatter (Uptime on potential future torment at that moment), Heal (Somewhere on 13-20 sec cd depending on which heal you use), One or 2 dodges (Depending on how you generated your 3 clones while auto attacking), Block (For the 5 stacks of torment/one clone creation). That gives you at least 8ish seconds of vulnerability where you have no heals or dodges after you did this condition dump to kite around (maybe through some combination of decoy, blink, or mass invis) before your next potential burst. That sounds like an all-in condition dump seeing as you just used at least half of your defensive abilities to stack torment. So they use one condition removal and lets say by luck that they don’t get your torment (usually condition removal is in groups of 2). Well then they die unless they stop moving and try to attack you from range (for the 8ish seconds before you can at least get a block torment up with you having no heals or dodges).

If they do remove torment?

Then you kite around for 8 seconds with no heal or dodge using up your remaining 1-3 defensive cooldowns each giving you at least 30ish seconds of cd. Then you spend at least 4+ seconds to do it all again (assuming that you can get enough endurance that isn’t being used to defend yourself after your all in condition dump). Except this second time if they have any secondary condition removal (through traits or low cd) you have no defensive abilities up, heals up, or dodges.

You have Maim and 20% in Domination which means you don’t have defensive boons through PU and are completely relying on your active defensive skills to keep you alive. Sounds like high risk, high reward to me. Except that in the condition spam scenario you posted you are dead if you don’t kill them in two bursts.

“Players will likely end up using condition cleanses on an auto attack.”

They don’t need to use a condition removal on an auto attack. If (they don’t know they can dodge the scepter block), they could just use it after the scepter block and effectively remove at least half or more of your torment stacks depending on how quickly you stacked it on them.

“But I still think Torment on a auto attack, is a bad idea. The damage output you’ll be looking at together with the Bleeding, Burn and Confusion is getting a bit ridiculous (that’s not to say we don’t already have these conditions and potential, it’s just getting worse/stronger).”

Yes…but because now you are starting to look at builds and the interaction between skills I can also say that condi spam necros and condi spam engis are also ridiculous (except that both necros and engis also spam additional conditions on top of bleeding and burn that’ll make it even harder to cleanse). The all best case scenarios will get owned with 2 condition removal due to using up all of your defensive traits to initiate/maintain a spam. You can’t say the same with condition spamming engis/necros).

“It’s also boring. If I wanted to be great at conditions, I’d likely play a Necromancer. I wanted to play Mesmer because it used to be a profession about control.”

I agree with you there. But of course no one will force you into playing this condition type of build. It appears that we can’t even get any interesting control abilities (such as power lock) without it being extremely overpowered (through “bugs”) and then nerfed to uselessness (against thieves).

Sorry that this is two posts…it wouldn’t let me fit it into one..
“Let’s widen our horizon beyond the (subjectively) boring “competitive tournament” we got in this game. Why would anyone take us there instead of a better suited profession, such as a Thief anyways? Let’s look at a bit at World vs. World however.”

Perfect. I agree on the thieves being taken over Mesmers anyways. By WvW I’m assuming you are talking about WvW roaming seeing as that is what is most likely viable.

“With an attack rotation taking roughly 4 seconds, we’re looking at the first attack replacing itself as soon as we start a new rotation, and there being about 3 seconds left on the second attack as we get to that. In an ideal world, your auto-attacks alone are maintaining 3 stacks of Torment on your target while wielding the scepter…What about using the block? That’s another 5 stacks. The clones all apply roughly one stack each as long as they’re alive (and hit). Your heal applies another 2 stacks. Maybe you take a Sigil of Torment as well, for a chance at that one extra stack. Perhaps you even go for Maim of the Disillusioned, and add 3 more stacks.”

So that is 3 stacks on auto attack over 4 seconds (Let’s throw in for fun 3 scepter clones auto attacking within the first 2 seconds so an additional 6 stacks assuming everything is hitting), 5 stacks from the scepter block (assuming they don’t dodge out of the torment), 2 stacks from the torment runes, 1 stack from the sigil, and 3 more stacks from the Maim. That is a total of 20 stacks for 4 seconds of auto attack, some combination of dodge/block for clone generation, a heal, and one shatter (lets assume Cry of Frustration for Maim because it makes the most sense). So after this initial “burst” of torment you can have Confusion, Torment, Bleed (From Sharper Images).

Lets assume that the person has no condition removal in WvW roaming. Well of course they are going to get owned by condition stacking regardless of the number of stacks.

Guess I’m also up for a try! Though I feel like I’ve seen you in WvW before at least 6+ months ago and I ended up getting destroyed by this Charr Mesmer…

“You spam them up close to your target, not at range. You’re inherently more bunker as a Condition Mesmer, so good luck avoiding clones that’s right next to you.”

So you’re in Spvp and you are in close combat. Toughness by itself is not going to give you enough durability to continually maintain close range even with its effective vitality with a base health pool of 15k unless you are PU (and have active protection/regen uptime) and then it just goes back to everything I just mentioned in my previous post about PU. Even if you are not PU, then how is scepter torment OP? You no longer have massive defensive boon uptime and can be taken down by other classes.

“How often do people stand still in PvP? Really now.. that’s such a pointless thing to mention. Even bunkers move, they move on the point. You don’t just stand still in PvP”

I will concede that this is an obvious point. But are you saying that smart players wont stop movement if they can to effectively reduce the amount of damage they will take in half? (Assuming they don’t just pop condition removal/ have passive condition removal).

“Oh yeah, totally.. forgot that you can’t do Torment at all. Right.”

3.375 seconds on first Auto Attack (assuming 35% condition duration in Spvp) and 5.4 duration on Second attack. By the time you complete your Auto Attacks (Or stop after the second attack and wait out the duration before you can start your auto attack again) 4 seconds later You will have 1.375 seconds left on one stack and 3.4 seconds left on your second torment. So you just spent 4 seconds to get 2 stacks of torment. And you think this is OP? In that same amount of time you could have 4-5 Winds of Chaos bouncing at “close range” for more damage.

“Having Torment applied on 2 out of 3 attacks is stupid. It won’t last forever, no, it’s short in duration, yes, but it’s enough to be overpowered. You can dodge up clones instantly, don’t forget that.. it’s not like you must wait for that third hit of the Scepter. “ – Absconditus.6804

It is NOT enough to be overpowered. As pointed out in:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Mesmer-Poll-Scepter-Auto-Attack-Torment/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Scepter-AA-buff-is-a-terrible-idea
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Illusionary-Elasticity

by multiple people including Pyro that Staff Clones with IE will be doing more damage than Scepter clones. Scepter projectiles are NOT homing compared to Staff clones which means you will be able to move out of their damage. Torment is also 75% the condition damage of a bleed if the target isn’t moving and you are able to stack way more bleeds than you will torment.

“There are also ways of increasing the duration.” – Absconditus.6804

Currently staff clones do not inherit condition duration. Unless it is a fix that appears with the scepter clones getting condition duration, there will be no way for you to increase the duration of torment.

“Plus this is something that just makes PU even better, and we don’t need that. PU builds were already strong enough.” – Absconditus.6804

Strong enough where?

WvW roaming? You can run away from a PU the same as before. A PU Mesmer putting 1-2 torment stacks on you as you run away is not going to kill you. If you duel a PU Mesmer…well you are dueling a PU Mesmer regardless of this scepter buff and are already at a huge disadvantage.

Hotjoins? Not going to even touch that.

Solo queue? Really this will have no impact of higher levels of Spvp because PU is not able to hold a point while in stealth. If you are thinking “Well with this torment buff they will be able to decap”…a bunker sitting on a point does not need to move, meaning that your torment is doing 75% bleed damage.

Tpvp? Will not impact Tpvp because they have no ability to rotate out and teams will just rotate around you.

“What does it matter if you mainting clones or not ?!?! it requires one AA from a clone to apply dmg better than any other clone in our ar-[s]-enal.You can spam clones all day and kite ppl and kill them like that without using any attack of your own!” Sandrox.9524

Please read what I just posted on clone damage.

“Arguing that “if you spend 2-3 sec spamming aa torment is cleansed you’ve wasted 2-3sec” is like those arguing that you can dodge glassbow ranger AA to avoid 4k auto attacks. Sure you can, however it is a Auto Attack. If you cleanse the mesmer will instantly reapply and most likely nuke you with a million confusion stacks while at it. Any effect or output on a AA without a caveat is extremely strong.” – Prysin.8542

Except for the fact that unlike a glassbow ranger whose attacks are homing, scepter clones are NOT. Just A MILLION confusion stacks? You mean 5 stacks with a 3 second CHANNEL? How does another ability on the scepter add to your argument that the AA is OP? I could also say that Engis can also stack chill/poison/bleed and burn on you in those same 3 seconds with grenades. That is four conditions for you putting on one. (Even just saying they use one ability, that is still poison + burn for your one condition of confusion).

“Torment on AA would be great and fair IF there was a requirement. However the way mesmer works you got three choices, move, not move and eat shatter, run. With torment option 1 and 3 is gone. Use rune of torment + lemongrass and you instantly get 4-5 sec torment per attack.”

I’m just gonna assume that you don’t play Mesmer. Torment stacking scepter auto attack AND shatter? Torment shatter will not become viable postpatch with a 2 second duration increase on a grandmaster trait. If they are condition damage, their shatters will do no damage. Vice versa with if they are shatter their condition damage will do no damage. Lemongrass is a condition DECREASE not INCREASE. Furthermore, our only other condition clone (Clone) currently does NOT inherit condition duration increase from the Mesmer which means that unless there is a change post patch, Scepter clones will also only have a base duration of 2.5 seconds.

“lol,if the warrior will hacve to waste zerk stance on AA it means it is broken.” –Sandrox.9524

Of course because warriors have no cleaves at all and only stand still.

I agree with Feaduin and FunkyBassline. Though I could copy and paste my response from the Mesmer Poll: Scepter Auto Attack Torment post from Chaos Archangel, I’ll just do a summary instead.

People are following this belief that we will be able to keep up 3 scepter clones that will keep up torment stacks. This is in part to Helseth who made a video showing 3 scepter clones auto attacking a golem. If you are able to keep up 3 clones constantly, why is every mesmer not running signet of the ether that has much higher sustainability than ether feast? Because in practice, you will never have this optimum set up unless you are facing AFK people. Are you going to only stay in scepter to have this maximum uptime? No, of course not. Lets say that it is not the clones who have the high uptime in torment stacking but the mesmer. Really you are spending 2-3 seconds spamming auto attacks to get 2 stacks of torment that will last 2 seconds after your chain. What happens if they have any condition removal? You just wasted 2-3 seconds doing nothing and that is assuming that your opponent isn’t doing anything this whole time.

Really it is very disappointing to keep hearing some iteration of “Helseth said so” for all the reasons that Feaduin pointed out.

Been playing the standard 4/4/0/0/6 shatter for 1+ years in spvp/wvw. In the last 8+ months have been running gs/staff. No condition removal…usually like to run decoy/blink and for fun throw in something random for the last utility slot like portal or Moa to mix things up.

Standard traits: Mental torment, Shattered Concentration, Far-Reaching Manipulations, Deceptive Evasion, Compounding Power, Illusionary Elasticity (Can’t wait for that buff!) and Illusionary Persona.

In spvp/wvw, I don’t really have a problem with most thieves if I have mirror images for the counter burst but lately I’ve been running a lot of portal for fun. I think with thieves it is mostly about the muscle memory of staff distancing that helps me pull back from the burst I know when I try to troll with Moa (Which is fun for minion master/power necros) I will always lose against thieves if I don’t have Mass Invis.

Sorry about the quotes! I couldn’t figure out how to make it look pretty so I did it the old fashion way :p

“So there’s basically no positive impact for this change, the only thing it does is slightly buff some already strong builds.” -Fay.2357

I agree and based off Chaos Archangel’s initial dichotomy of Pro Torment (Not sure if OP)/ Anti Torment (OP nerf)I would say “yes” in terms of increasing some builds that will be seen in solo queue but not to the godlike levels that people keep insisting.

“Will this change make condition shatter (torment shatter) builds viable? Nope, not even close.”

I agree here as well…increasing the duration doesn’t help that GM trait at all for the competitive GM illusions that are available and the restrictions that are already placed on our trait distributions.

“Additionally, it absolutely reeks of lazy design.”

I completely agree and I did make a note that I didn’t like the design philosophy behind this change. I feel that GS 3 got this same level of love by completely ignoring all the interesting ideas even after a dev response was seen. But really after two years it isn’t really that surprising seeing as we are either being pushed to shatter or PU (with some rare interrupt Mesmer here and there).

Like you mention in your post, scepter will now get sent to the bottom of some “list of things for Mesmers” (If…there even is one after 2 years) and that is sad in itself. I actually started my other post with a Both..but then realized that the question was asking “Do you think it is OP?” not “Do you think this is a sufficient change for an underused weapon?”. Just going back to Chaos Archangel’s initial question in this thread however…I would say yes in the sense that it isn’t OP but that I agree with you that it is really a horrible bandaid that doesn’t have any meaningful design change to Mesmers.

Tl;dr: Yes it is not OP (Chaos Archangel’s initial question), No it doesn’t contribute in any way to a meaningful Mesmer experience.

I knew a thread like this would pop out. Long time lurker ..don’t really post but have played Mesmer since release!

Yes.

Do I think this is the best design decision that they could have done? No far from it but I also don’t think this is the end all most OP thing that people have been screaming about.

Please don’t start with the argument “Lord Helseth says so”. Helseth also said that Signet of the Ether would be OP and we all know how that turned out.

Starting with the first argument that PU will become overpowered…let’s start with the modes that PU influences.
PvE- Nonexistent, Spvp- Used in Hotjoins/Solo queue but not in Team queue because teams will usually just rotate around and stealth can’t cap/hold a point. WvW roaming – you can pretty much just walk away from PU.

What changes does adding torment do?

PvE- Nothing, WvW roaming – Nothing..if you didn’t run from a PU before what makes 1-2 stacks of torment as you run away any different?

Spvp- Makes PU slightly stronger in solo queue. Assuming you are running 4/4/6 PU with nightmare runes you get 35% condition duration increase. Making the 2.5 second base duration to 3.375. So you can assume 3 stacks per clone and 3-4 for the player (spamming only auto attacks). That is 12-18 stacks assuming you hit with your counter with a start-up time from 1 second (illusionary counter, mirror images) to 9 seconds (slow rolling them out with auto attacks). This is also of course assuming they are running 0 condition removal.

Sorry about the strike through but I forgot that clones don’t get condition duration..which means their stacking potential is MUCH less than I even hypothesize with the best condition. The non PU condition times should be closer to what you can actually get.

So what happens when anyone aoes your clones in any shape or form? Well then you need to start stacking up your clones again. Which means your clones aren’t auto attacking..which means you aren’t getting the torment stacks.

But what about the argument you can get them up again really quickly?

Really? Is this also the same reason why signet of the ether is so OP? Because we can in theory get to almost heal signet levels of regen in spvp by keeping up clones constantly. It is unrealistic to assume we will always have scepter clones out auto attacking and keeping up their stacks of torment. Are you going to stay in scepter the whole time? Of course not, which means you will never have max possible torment stacks up unless you are facing someone in hotjoin or they are afk.

What about non PU condi mesmers?

The most optimal build that has been suggested so far is some variant of Chaotic Interruption. 0/4/6/0/0 with 4 points floating. If you don’t take 4 in domination you lose 20% condition duration. Suddenly your scepter auto attack clones will go from 2.5 seconds of torment to 2.875. At most they will be able to keep up 2 stacks per clone assuming they are all up. With a player aa torment of 2-3, you can have 8-14 torment stacks up. Once again assuming that you and all your clones are autoattacking and your opponent is just standing there with his finger up his nose and has no condition removal.

Non-PU mesmers are not the tankiest in the world, which means that they will be killable (of course we do have some amazing interrupt mesmers…). If anything this increases the diversity of builds that people will be playing in spvp. Does this mean that condi mesmers will be played in tpvp? Maybe? Is that a bad thing that mesmers will not be gs/staff shatter portal? If anything it sounds more interesting in the possibilities of interrupt condi mesmers. The predominant fear of torment stacking OPness seems to come from this underlying belief that we will be able to keep up 3 scepter CLONES constantly throughout a fight without switching to an alternative weapon. If that is the case then why is everyone not just running signet of ether as well?

Sorry for the long post as well as typos…it is late here…(I’m ready for you Pyro!)

TL;dr: Torment stacking adds little to PU spvp, PU already gets ignored in wvw roaming, opens up possible non shatter/portal play in spvp.

IGN: Isis
Server: Crystal Desert (NA)
Play style: More Spvp and WvW than PvE
Role: Scholar
Play Time: Late NA prime time..Oceanic prime time.

I’m just angry that it is locking not only that char..but my whole account because it is a ranked game.

My solo arena spvp map has been stuck in skyhammer for 40 mins now. Zoning into Heart of the Mists sends us back onto the map. Changing chars sends us back onto the map. Zoning in WvW sends us back into the map. Getting AFK kicked sends us back into the match. We’ve all sent support emails and bug forum threads.

Figured if anything general discussion would probably see a mod.

My whole Solo Arena Map is stuck on the map.

Zoning into Heart of the Mists sends us back onto the map. Changing chars sends us back onto the map. Zoning in WvW sends us back into the map. Getting AFK kicked sends us back into the match.

Short of logging out…not sure what we are supposed to do.

My solo pvp match also finished and my whole map is stuck as well. We can’t switch characters, zone into wvw, get afk kicked, or relog without getting sent back into the map.

The previous dev livestream stated that the Endless Fractal Tonic drops from 40+ daily chests. With the restructuring of dailies into 1-10, 11-20, etc., does this mean that you can have 2 chances a day for the Endless Tonic drop? (Fractal 40 and Fractal 41+)? There seems to be inconsistency with if it drops from Fractal 40 because of the gw2 wiki page.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Endless_Fractal_Tonic

I’m not sure if this is the right place for this suggestion but I would like to propose a quaggan finisher for Wintersday (because hey, who doesn’t love a quaggan?)

I had two ideas for possible finishers:

1. Foostivoo holding a bag full of presents falls on the body (with snow particles following him or even snow exploding when he hits the body. This could also be a baby quaggan in a Wintersday hat… which would be even cuter).

2. A snow mound would form on the body and Foostivoo (or even more adorable baby quaggans) would pop out of the snow.