Guild Wars 2

I think we discussed this already but the combat’s internal structure was done around PvP situations. We could say we were warned by the game’s name and history :P

This is why the PvE combat feels mostly unsatisfying with laughable skills and traits that have about 2 sec duration or 10% damage reduction that you need to dance around in order to survive against tougher mobs.

Yes, it is a shame that they balanced them separately but I guess someone could argue that they wanted the players to smoothly move from PvE to PvP and vice-versa without needing to learn again what each skill/trait does.

What is awesome about the ranger to a new/returning player is the… range

I’m using the longbow and having to stay the kitten out of all the HOT bosses while raining arrows on their heads feels great. I am usually one of the few survivors after a nasty AOE hits the group and busy getting the others on their feet.

Vayne.8563:

Nope I’m not arguing a lot of people want easier tstory missions. If there are 12 guys posting again and again and again, it looks like a lot of guys though. The loudest voices aren’t always the most numerous anyway. You’re just assuming that’s what I’m saying.

I didn’t want to continue arguing about this as it’s quite pointless. Just wanted to address this ‘only 12 guys’ thing.

The reason you don’t see a lot of posts is: part of the solo players frustrated with some annoying missions moved on (from the game or from doing those mission) and some of them will not post this as the forum responses can become quite toxic: lazy, just bad, playing with the monitor turned off… and so on.

So those ‘12 guys’ will be the people that do stick around and just raise this concern. It is a valid issue for the more casual players. How would you feel if the situation would have been reversed: the new PvE content really easy and the forums response will be to play PvP/WvW for difficult content or just move one to another game.

Einlanzer.1627:

Ashivan.5216:

Einlanzer.1627:

Ashivan.5216:

Einlanzer.1627:

maddoctor.2738:

Einlanzer.1627:

There’s a problem with offensive vs. defensive stats, and the long in short of is that, especially with the way dodging works, the best defense is a strong offense.

That’s the best part about Guild Wars 2

Not when there are defensive attributes in the game that become nigh-useless as a result. That’s just an unpolished system.

….snip
It’s like the entire game is balanced around the PvP encounters with huge dmg/defense spikes on long cooldowns and good reflexes.

That’s pretty much exactly what it is. It really appears that balancing for PvE is never a priority for their team, and so we have exceptionally poor balance since PvE operates way differently than PvP does. See things like base weapon damage (mostly stemming from #1 skills), defensive attributes, and downed states.

Unfortunately it seems this is the case and not sure if they can or feel like improving the PvE part.

I played GW1 mostly for PvP, always going in those 4vs4 scenarios with my annoying necro/mesmer, but for GW2 I wanted a more meaningful PvE experience with slower game speed… I guess I got older

What’s funny is that I think this is what most MMO players want, and that’s probably why GW2 had a huge player falloff after it launched. I still love it, but I do often get annoyed at how chaotic fights get.

This is one of the main reasons I can’t enjoy the combat as much as I would have liked. I have a love-hate relation with this game and I had the impression that nobody else felt something is wrong with the skills and the combat flow in PvE encounters.

Einlanzer.1627:

Ashivan.5216:

Einlanzer.1627:

maddoctor.2738:

Einlanzer.1627:

There’s a problem with offensive vs. defensive stats, and the long in short of is that, especially with the way dodging works, the best defense is a strong offense.

That’s the best part about Guild Wars 2

Not when there are defensive attributes in the game that become nigh-useless as a result. That’s just an unpolished system.

….snip
It’s like the entire game is balanced around the PvP encounters with huge dmg/defense spikes on long cooldowns and good reflexes.

That’s pretty much exactly what it is. It really appears that balancing for PvE is never a priority for their team, and so we have exceptionally poor balance since PvE operates way differently than PvP does. See things like base weapon damage (mostly stemming from #1 skills), defensive attributes, and downed states.

Unfortunately it seems this is the case and not sure if they can or feel like improving the PvE part.

I played GW1 mostly for PvP, always going in those 4vs4 scenarios with my annoying necro/mesmer, but for GW2 I wanted a more meaningful PvE experience with slower game speed… I guess I got older

Einlanzer.1627:

maddoctor.2738:

Einlanzer.1627:

There’s a problem with offensive vs. defensive stats, and the long in short of is that, especially with the way dodging works, the best defense is a strong offense.

That’s the best part about Guild Wars 2

Not when there are defensive attributes in the game that become nigh-useless as a result. That’s just an unpolished system.

I completely agree with this. I am looking to make a tanky character by using defensive stats and it just fails flat in any moderately difficult content like running around HOT maps. This is exacerbated by a lot of CC and conditions flying around from the mobs in there so your defense will mean jack kitten to them. It will be just worse as in berserker gear you would have killed them already, if your reflexes are good enough.

If I’m sacrificing a lot of damage to be more resilient it should really have a bigger effect than increasing my time-to-die from 2.5 sec to 3.5. It’s like the entire game is balanced around the PvP encounters with huge dmg/defense spikes on long cooldowns and good reflexes.

maddoctor.2738:

Ashivan.5216:

At the end of the day is the developers choice (and their business department) if they go with rewarding the faithful players with increasing harder content or they try to accommodate that for a larger (maybe hypothetical) audience.

I’m not convinced (there is no data to prove it anyway) that those who find the story missions hard are enough to be worth getting extra development time allocated to them to create an easier version of already existing content.

Is the content hard or the player lazy?

That is not a relevant question tbh although you might think it is. Most people are ‘lazy’ when comes to entertainment and they don’t want to struggle to enjoy what they paid for.

If they paid for the story they should be able to do it without much hassle. It’s that easy.

Anyway, I think this discussion will go nowhere. I just wanted to support the voice of the players stating that the story missions are too hard to be enjoyable while playing solo. It’s indeed true for a lot of players, most of them casuals (like me, I guess) that are not playing this game for long stretches of time.

Vayne.8563:

Ashivan.5216:

Ayrilana.1396:

DoctorDing.5890:

Ayrilana.1396:

Games should not be catered to the lowest denominator

I could not disagree more. To remain successful, games like this absolutely MUST cater for the lowest common denominator. Those people are paying customers too. Call it easy mode, story mode, hard mode, expert mode or whatever but the fact is that a “challenging” level of difficulty can turn people off the game. You might be happy to see those people out of the game but every lost player means less money to develop the game.

Despite this being a MMORPG I think there are lots of people who want to play it solo, which makes some of those bosses seriously tedious and not fun. There would be no harm at all in having an easy story mode or whatever. It would not affect anyone else at all.

No.

Lowest common denominators are not representative of the entire game population. They’re normally a very small minority. All it does is make the game less enjoyable for other players as we saw with complaints about core Tyria. If there were to be a difficulty for those players, it would need to be a more which they can activate giving them a more easy experience.

If your game population is really low because you only have hardcore fans – you’re missing the point on having a viable product that generates enough revenue so it doesn’t shut down.

I’m fairly casual with this title but I do pay for expansions, living world content and character slots (without mentioning trivial things like makeover kit :P)

I find it hard to believe that for you, a veteran player, those story missions are the main content that you like to play… over and over again. And even if you did that it still doesn’t explain why you would be against having a difficulty slider for those missions.

I do repeat those missions over and over again (I’ve got 6 characters right now that have completed every single zone and every single story in the game from personal story up through LS season 3).

With new chapters of the LS coming out every 2-3 months with a new zone, I don’t believe there’s time to make and test more modes. That’s one of my objections.

It seems to me there are a lot of people who would rather have the game dumbed down than learn how to play it.

Do you repeat them because you like them and the challenges they bring or because you have to do it for the new characters?

Also, Vayne now you are saying there’s a lot of people who want easier story missions… but you argued a while back that we’re just a few ppl, bad at the game. Thanks for the boost

At the end of the day is the developers choice (and their business department) if they go with rewarding the faithful players with increasing harder content or they try to accommodate that for a larger (maybe hypothetical) audience.

Ayrilana.1396:

DoctorDing.5890:

Ayrilana.1396:

Games should not be catered to the lowest denominator

I could not disagree more. To remain successful, games like this absolutely MUST cater for the lowest common denominator. Those people are paying customers too. Call it easy mode, story mode, hard mode, expert mode or whatever but the fact is that a “challenging” level of difficulty can turn people off the game. You might be happy to see those people out of the game but every lost player means less money to develop the game.

Despite this being a MMORPG I think there are lots of people who want to play it solo, which makes some of those bosses seriously tedious and not fun. There would be no harm at all in having an easy story mode or whatever. It would not affect anyone else at all.

No.

Lowest common denominators are not representative of the entire game population. They’re normally a very small minority. All it does is make the game less enjoyable for other players as we saw with complaints about core Tyria. If there were to be a difficulty for those players, it would need to be a more which they can activate giving them a more easy experience.

If your game population is really low because you only have hardcore fans – you’re missing the point on having a viable product that generates enough revenue so it doesn’t shut down.

I’m fairly casual with this title but I do pay for expansions, living world content and character slots (without mentioning trivial things like makeover kit :P)

I find it hard to believe that for you, a veteran player, those story missions are the main content that you like to play… over and over again. And even if you did that it still doesn’t explain why you would be against having a difficulty slider for those missions.

LoreChief.8391:

I think it is unreasonable to attach energy costs to weaponskills, and it gets even more ridiculous when you see the evolution of elite specs. With Renegade, we now have 3 additional F actions that also eat energy up.

Seeing as how each legend is designed for a different purpose, it does not make sense to say “well just switch legends and get more energy” – because then you have to shift purpose.

Using Shiro as an example; do other classes sacrifice all of their skill usage to get a few seconds of Quickness? Because with Shiro, thats what you get. Auto attacks with quickness at the cost of everything else.

Do other classes have to choose between using an elite skill and their entire other rotation? Because thats what you get with Rev.

And it’s not like we’re given any options in the trait lines either. There’s nothing to decrease energy expenditure or increase energy gain. Hell, we don’t even get to start off combat with a full energy bar even!

And the thing so many people are missing, is that as a Rev you’ve already “made a sacrifice” for the sake of the effective power you get. We don’t get to choose our skills. They are pre-selected based on the legendary you channel. The price has already been paid – and we’re being short-changed.

So what are my ideas to improve this then?

1. The #1 skill now generates energy per hit. With Shiro this should be just enough to maintain the Quickness effect – to give you an example of how much energy you should get (because trying to use Quickness indefinitely with anything else is OP).
2. Add/modify traits that result in energy gain. “When you kill an enemy, generate 30% energy”, “Energy now caps at 150% and regens to 100% out of combat”, “Switching stances increases energy generation from basic attacks by 100% for 5 seconds”
3. Skills that constantly drain energy no longer have an activation energy cost.

Quoted for visibility. I try to like the revenant but having to constantly auto-attack just because I used some utility skills and now I’m out of energy is so spectacularly boring.

Also, having to keep swapping legends shouldn’t be mandatory when they each bring different things to combat situations. It’s just micro-management for the sake of posing as a class mechanic. It’s like the designers don’t play their own game or we really have different definitions for fun and engaging combat.

takatsu.9416:

I really enjoyed the HOT and LS3 content and how hard it is… I didn’t have problems soloing most of it except for Caudecus and some things where I didn’t have the magic mastery some people told me would help, but all of it was super fun because it really needed a good optimized balanced build like something for 1vX wvw roaming you know? and play really on your toes with lots of movements and everything you can do to survive, blocks, evades, blindness, CC, whatever. I think this is very good that PvE can push us to play well and smart. I’d say instead of trying to rush through content and just get all the rewards and things over with, look at your skills and builds and really optimize and learn your class well and take it as a test for yourself. I didn’t find it annoying, it was fun. there were diff mechanics coming from NPC enemies, they had condi, cc, stealth, like playing actual PvP. this is very good and fun imo. I even found Caudecus fun/funny bc anise kept trying to revive me and they were essentially invincible and I just stripped naked and ran back at him over and over. A ridiculously impossible situation can be fun if you look at it as a personal challenge or just simply, a game

For me is even funnier you mentioning the PvE content being as difficult as the PvP.

The HOT enemies are indeed really liberal with their CC spam, just like in a PvP encounter.

So it shouldn’t be a huge surprise when someone asks for lower difficulty in story missions.

Walkure.9056:

Benjamin Arnold.3457:

In terms of data for RNG samples, 500, while it seems like a lot, is still a very very small sample size. Its entirely possible to have even worse luck than you had.

Does this imply that the loot system is true random based? Meaning that a new player has an equally high chance of dropping chests/precursors as a veteran when they log in?

If so, seems rather unfair to me. How about a pseudo random distribution to level the playing field more (more time spent = higher chance of dropping loot/ascended gear box ). When you drop it, the drop chance is reset. So for example:

Players X,Y,Z doing all 500 t4 fractals, system “guarantees”(=99.99%) 10(?) ascended gear boxes for each player.

And in current(?) system:

Players X,Y,Z doing all 500 t4 fractals, system dropping 6 to player X,10 to player Y, 14 to player Z.

Side note: Anet being vague about drop rates in general makes people speculate and (sometimes) complain more.

Or even a pity timer, something another game company is famous for. What that does is setting a threshold for fails so after a certain number is reached you do get the reward.

It would really make more sense tbh than have this huge discrepancies between players experiences.

jheryn.8390:

Ashivan.5216:

Vayne.8563:

Well see here is the disconnect. Guys who play this game for a month and leave for a year and come back for another month aren’t really keeping the lights on in my opinion. I’m not saying that they should be excluded from all thought, but I don’t want my instances to be dead boring because someone else wants it easy.

And it’s not that hard to learn the game. Plenty of casual people do. It’s not like studying for a law degree. Most of the stuff people need to learn could be taught in an hour or two, and it might just make the game better for them as well. I know I’ve helped a lot of casual players out learning the game and it’s given them a better appreciation of the game.

People seem to be arguing that they cant’ get better or they simply don’t want to. I’m saying those players aren’t really something Anet should cater to. Not at the expense of players who are here all the time, supporting the game on a constant basis.

I never argued for making the story missions dead easy, for all the players. It’s against the freedom to play how each player likes, something that I love to find in games.

What I was saying and think is reasonable is to have difficulty modes ranging from Story (easy mode) with small rewards to Elite/whatever name (that could actually be more difficult that they currently are) with bigger rewards.

You will not be robbed of anything but instead you would gain the freedom to play them at what difficulty level you feels is more appropriate for your skill level.

But I suspect you won’t like that, because as you said – you are the people that keep the game lights on while the casuals move on / come back and the game should only speak your language in terms of difficulty…

The truth is that you cannot make the game all things to all people. No game has infinite possibilities to do everything that suits everyone’s game play.

The freedom to play as you like has nothing to do with the game being tailored to each person’s preferences and desires.

All games, not just this one, are designed to be playable by most. Asking for more than that, IMO, is beyond the pale.

Actually there are not a lot of things that needed tweaking, just some number adjustments, in terms of dmg and hp. I would not ask for several LD layouts of the same mission – it’s too much work.

@Vayne.8563:

Well yes, it would involve some adjustments and QA sessions but not something really big.

Anyway, I will have to agree with you – it’s not something that can be expected at this point. Maybe the have some tracking data that tells them it’s useless to do this as the ROI is too low… who knows.

Vayne.8563:

Well see here is the disconnect. Guys who play this game for a month and leave for a year and come back for another month aren’t really keeping the lights on in my opinion. I’m not saying that they should be excluded from all thought, but I don’t want my instances to be dead boring because someone else wants it easy.

And it’s not that hard to learn the game. Plenty of casual people do. It’s not like studying for a law degree. Most of the stuff people need to learn could be taught in an hour or two, and it might just make the game better for them as well. I know I’ve helped a lot of casual players out learning the game and it’s given them a better appreciation of the game.

People seem to be arguing that they cant’ get better or they simply don’t want to. I’m saying those players aren’t really something Anet should cater to. Not at the expense of players who are here all the time, supporting the game on a constant basis.

I never argued for making the story missions dead easy, for all the players. It’s against the freedom to play how each player likes, something that I love to find in games.

What I was saying and think is reasonable is to have difficulty modes ranging from Story (easy mode) with small rewards to Elite/whatever name (that could actually be more difficult that they currently are) with bigger rewards.

You will not be robbed of anything but instead you would gain the freedom to play them at what difficulty level you feels is more appropriate for your skill level.

But I suspect you won’t like that, because as you said – you are the people that keep the game lights on while the casuals move on / come back and the game should only speak your language in terms of difficulty…

maddoctor.2738:

Ashivan.5216:

If you could point some examples that I might have overlooked – please tell me. I’m not ironic btw… I just didn’t see anything special that had to be learned through the story missions, that you couldn’t see in normal open maps anyway.

In all heart of thorns instances you fight new enemies before you face them in the open world, this includes mordrem, saurians and chak. That is if you follow the story directly and not go explore around ignore it. And fighting them in the instances means you cannot hide behind other players to kill them. Or relying on other players to break their breakbars. That’s why training in an instanced environment is better, it’s easier to teach the player mechanics and how to deal with situations when they cannot be a part of huge blob that does all the work for them. In instances you are responsible for yourself

If everyone who finished that very first instance of Heart of Thorns was actually paying attention then the Wyvern Matriarch’s breakbar later on in VB would always break. Although I’m saying an instance is better at training than the open world, it doesn’t mean that the instances of this game are doing the best job at it.

I am not sure how other people play but I always like to see a little the zones where the story takes part before actually delving in. Also you do need to run to a specific map point to start the story missions. While doing that, you will encounter those enemies anyway.

Fair enough for the Wyvern breakbar example although the defiance mechanic is not something new, exclusive to HOT mobs. And I don’t think all the new players get accustomed with the HOT maps through zerg trains… I am almost convinced that is not a thing that really happens.

maddoctor.2738:

Ashivan.5216:

On the other hand I like to think the story difficulty modes (with reduced rewards ofc) would allow more people to have an enjoyable story experience so they would stick more to the game, getting to eventually learn all the combat mechanics. I’m not a huge story/lore buff but I like to see how some story arcs conclude. And while not I’m completely against difficult content , I can’t see the story being one of the difficult content pillars.

The story missions can teach you the game so when you go out there and do something with other people you are better prepared. A solo closed/instanced environment is better for training and teaching people how to play than the open world or content for multiple players.

Ok, I’ll play this game. Maybe I’m a lousy player with a bad memory but I managed to go through the HOT campaign until the last mission – where I failed and didn’t want to replay it, and I don’t remember learning something crucial to use in open world events.

If you could point some examples that I might have overlooked – please tell me. I’m not ironic btw… I just didn’t see anything special that had to be learned through the story missions, that you couldn’t see in normal open maps anyway.

Vayne.8563:

Ashivan.5216:

Kreed.2768:

A lot of games nowadays include a “Story Mode” difficulty type because they’re designed for people who don’t actually want to play the game, but are there for an interactive, cinematic experience… or something. I guess those types of “gamers” exist now, but I don’t know if an action MMORPG like GW2 needs it. I don’t think the story content is particularly challenging as long as you have a basic grip of the mechanics and run a decent build/gear setup. If you die too easily, a setup that is a bit sturdier might be a solution. Sure, it won’t win you fights quite as fast, but that’s better than not winning them at all, right?

If you’re the type of person that can only enjoys things if there are other people that can’t have them – yes, it makes sense to think like that.

But at the end of the day, why would you care how other people play their story missions?

Shouldn’t those ‘dirty story peasants’ eat their cookies too? In the end they also payed for those, money that are used for further development of the game you love.

I care how other people intereact in the open world sharing events I’m in. If they can’t get through story they should want to get better Doing everything on the easy mode means they’re carried through everything else.

And I don’t actually mind carrying people or teaching them. But it’s naive to think that letting people not learn how to play the game is somehow better for the game.

Ah, Vayne always vigilant that the players are learning the game

You know there is a distinction between the story missions and those open world sharing events, you are mostly concerned… right?

For me personally, this game is not a big thing in my gaming life. I like to come back from time to time and see the new content and fiddle with new classes and builds. So from this pov I can see that the game veterans (you were saying in another thread something about having 20 characters – yay ) are trying to defend their way of playing and their history with the game.

On the other hand I like to think the story difficulty modes (with reduced rewards ofc) would allow more people to have an enjoyable story experience so they would stick more to the game, getting to eventually learn all the combat mechanics. I’m not a huge story/lore buff but I like to see how some story arcs conclude. And while not I’m completely against difficult content , I can’t see the story being one of the difficult content pillars.

The engineer was the only class I was never tempted to even try. I don’t particularly enjoy the skills aesthetic and the kits mechanic.

But the holosmith seems like the best reason to at least try and play one and I think it’s awesome and good for the class diversity. So congrats to the design team for that.

Also, I should say the holosmith mechanic reminds me of the bright wizards from the now defunct Warhammer Online. Had the same high risk – high reward thing going on (though is was mostly negated by having a dedicated healer in PvP scenarios, but that’s a different story )

I love the Mist Walking idea. I could see myself really enjoying the mobility and the nice effect that comes with that.

But I am not too fond of throwing daggers. Because of his mobility I would go for melee options, blinking in and out around your enemies.

Kreed.2768:

A lot of games nowadays include a “Story Mode” difficulty type because they’re designed for people who don’t actually want to play the game, but are there for an interactive, cinematic experience… or something. I guess those types of “gamers” exist now, but I don’t know if an action MMORPG like GW2 needs it. I don’t think the story content is particularly challenging as long as you have a basic grip of the mechanics and run a decent build/gear setup. If you die too easily, a setup that is a bit sturdier might be a solution. Sure, it won’t win you fights quite as fast, but that’s better than not winning them at all, right?

If you’re the type of person that can only enjoys things if there are other people that can’t have them – yes, it makes sense to think like that.

But at the end of the day, why would you care how other people play their story missions?

Shouldn’t those ‘dirty story peasants’ eat their cookies too? In the end they also payed for those, money that are used for further development of the game you love.

Ayrilana.1396:

FogLeg.9354:

Ayrilana.1396:

Half tempted to solo the last instance of HoT without armor and no traits allocated just to prove a point on how soloable it is.

Just because some people can run 100 meters under 10 seconds does not mean everyone can. Or should, considering this is a game that is suppose to be about having fun, and not about misery and suffering.

Just request Anet to make a mote for an infantile mode where the enemies hit with a wet noodle. That mission is only difficult for a subset of players and chances are they’re the same ones struggling with the rest of the game.

Wow, your ego level is over 9000. Different people enjoy different things, this is the reason that a lot of games include a difficulty level named Story.

Also, there are MMOs out there that let you choose your difficulty level for the story missions. If we could have that, you could brag that you completed them on Master level or whatever makes you feel good about yourself.

If I’m trying to see how the story unfolds and it’s mostly about my character I shouldn’t be forced to group with other players OR suffer a miserable time trying to complete them. I didn’t finish the HOT story because it was too kitten annoying.

I never liked the mechanic as it plays in the game. In theory it could have been something really cool but you end up with something that you keep going in and out without being actually satisfying to use. Also is very clunky for new players – you don’t really have a long time in the shroud to just use those abilities. Having access to a complete new skill bar for 10 secs (if ever) at a time is not really fun.

I played a lot on my reaper and although it saved me in a lot of occasions I wished it could have been something more predictable in duration. Maybe it shouldn’t be a second health bar but an activated aura that gives some protection and stability for a certain time while having those different abilities. Maybe link that active time/ % protection with stats like toughness so it has sense and purpose in different builds – like a tanky one.

Vayne.8563:

Ashivan.5216:

Vayne.8563:

It’s called an attrition mechanic. Running back means you’re not good enough to advance past that. It encourages you to rethink your strategy. Figure out what you did wrong. Maybe change your traits or skills. With no penalty at all for failure (and there’s little enough of that in this game) there’s no reason to get better. That’s why.

Vayne, you have a very stern way of looking at what is considered entertainment. I do respect your options.

We’ll have to agree in disagreeing on what is an enjoyable experience in those open maps

[Edited to remove an unnecessary remark on my part]

You only think it’s stern because you either haven’ t played or don’t remember how other games/MMOs handle it. In Guild Wars 1, every time you died you lost 15% of your health and mana cumulative to 60%, so it became harder every time you die.

In WoW you have to run back to your corpse or pay to rez at a cemetary which may or may not be close to your goal (and when I played it those were few and far between).

The fact is the death penalty in the game is very small. The trip back to the same place lets you practice what you learned until you’re almost never dying at which point it doesn’t matter.

I played most MMOs with the exception of the very fist like Everquest or Ultima Online and I still think the HOT maps are the most annoying open world content out there.

In both GW1 and WOW those penalties were actually fair because I could choose my own battles and not be ambushed every other minute while roaming around. In GW1 from what I remember there were some points/shrines in which you could remove that health penalty and they weren’t locked/constested. And in WOW I don’t remember having to make long runs back to my corpse – it wasn’t that big of a deal.

What I’m trying to say is that I don’t consider open maps – that you travel through for normal questing / story progression / vistas / mining … whatever, the place to put that type of content. I can’t really remember a lot of moments in those maps in which I could stop and just enjoy the scenery

I feel that good games need to have a nice flow/rhythm with different intensities for the players to go through like a roller-coaster ride. When your roller-coaster ride is mostly using segments in which you are upside down… ready to throw up, it’s not very enjoyable for most.

Wolfheart.7483:

Ashivan.5216:

Also did no one saw the irony of having masteries that let you cross those maps easier – like using shortcuts? It looked like the designers understood the annoyance of having to deal with those maps and added tools to skip them…

I think you are looking at this backwards. I sincerely doubt they designed the maps and then added masteries because of the way the maps turned out. They most likely had the ideas for the masteries first and designed them side-by-side with the maps so the maps utilized those masteries.

Well, it was mostly a hyperbole on my part just to show what I consider a dubious design decision. You shouldn’t create game content just to be skipped by a core feature… in this case frustrating map navigation by masteries shortcuts.

Vayne.8563:

It’s called an attrition mechanic. Running back means you’re not good enough to advance past that. It encourages you to rethink your strategy. Figure out what you did wrong. Maybe change your traits or skills. With no penalty at all for failure (and there’s little enough of that in this game) there’s no reason to get better. That’s why.

Vayne, you have a very stern way of looking at what is considered entertainment. I do respect your options.

We’ll have to agree in disagreeing on what is an enjoyable experience in those open maps

[Edited to remove an unnecessary remark on my part]

AliamRationem.5172:

While Auric Basin obviously has the least layered/complex layout of any HoT map, the enemies you face are significantly more difficult as are the events. I may be misunderstanding you, but you seem to be suggesting that the other maps have you on high alert all the time while AB doesn’t?

I’ve seen similar opinions numerous times and I’ve always found it confusing. I understand why players who dislike complex layouts prefer AB to TD/VB, but I really don’t understand why some players seem to believe that AB is somehow more solo friendly.

Indeed. I don’t dislike the mobs hitting me hard or the events themselves. I like them, actually.

What I didn’t like was the mobs density, their number of CC skills with low cooldown and really confusing map layout.

I found really hard to navigate because I couldn’t just stop and understand where the hell I am and how to reach my next point because I would just die to random mobs roaming around or being stealthed. And then having contested waypoints so I couldn’t resume my exploration but go back… just wow.

For me at least the Auric Basin is the most enjoyable (I love the even there – just getting to open all those chests ^^) , Verdant Brink coming in a close 2nd.

Vayne.8563:

Well, if someone is finding something difficult that others find quite easy, then they either have bad machines, bad internet connection or not as much skill. That’s the only conclusion I can come to.

I can live with you labeling me bad at the game. But I’m not the only one that found the HOT maps frustrating. Also, it’s not really about how hard the mobs hit – it’s the density of them (so you can’t catch a break, understanding your surroundings), the constant barrage of CC skills of some of them and the maps confusing layouts.

I don’t have anything bad to say about the events in those maps, just the general annoyance of having to navigate them.

Vayne.8563:

Some people feel if they die they’ve lost. This is probably a holdover from older games, where you couldn’t save your progress and had to get to the next checkpoint or start over I hated that too.

Death is Guild Wars 2 just isn’t that costly. I think people would rather give up than learn to play their profession better.

It would have been fine to die if that allowed to resurrect in that area. But having contested waypoints so you have to get back to the very first WP you started from… while not even close to my goal… why should I spend my game time doing that?

Also did no one saw the irony of having masteries that let you cross those maps easier – like using shortcuts? It looked like the designers understood the annoyance of having to deal with those maps and added tools to skip them. Looks like a freemium mobile game scheme ^^

Anyways all my comments are mostly from my time spent playing around 2 months after the HOT release.

Vayne.8563:

Clearly that won’t work for everyone but there were plenty of players who were bored with how easy the open world is that aren’t particularly found of either instances or grouping. So dungeons/fractals/raids don’t work for those people. I’m one of them.

…….

The people who have the most problems with HoT tend to be guldless without people who run that content with them. They avoid grouping and they’re not necessarily very good at playing their characters.

Hi Vayne

In the first part you are saying that are plenty of people that are not fond of grouping to play Raid/Fractals/Dungeons – fair enough.

But in a later fragment , you are saying that the people that find HOT difficult are the people that also avoid grouping (also bad at their characters).

Not sure you are consistent with your conclusions.

Anyway, for me an expansion is targeted to all the people interested in the game, not a minority that likes their difficulty in the open maps. And speaking of difficulty, even after I ‘got good’ playing my char those maps were still frustrating to move through. I spent most of my time in the Auric Basin – the tamest of those zones, that also has a nice city hub.

I don’t think being alert 100% of a game session is healthy for a MMO or for the people playing it

I also expect the next expansion to not have the same level of open world annoyance so we can get back at an enjoyable exploration. Hopefully I’m not wrong…

It’s weird – I never thought of HOT maps as end game content but just new maps/content for all players to explore with the new expansion. End game content for me could be Raids/Fractals/Dungeons.

When you release an expansion you do it mostly to attract new players or convince the older ones to come back. The ones that are playing are still there… playing. So in this regard I can’t agree with the end game content remark.

Anyway, for me the main issue with the difficulty in HOT was that it’s in the wrong game genre. Maybe I’m wrong but I’ll try to explain it.

MMOs are usually huge time sinks, played in larger game sessions with frequent breaks, interrupts or just not being fully present to what’s happening on the screen. I usually attend to various other things while playing a MMO.

The HOT maps are just a mess in this regard – the enemies in there only need a couple of seconds in which you weren’t on your toes to kill you. This coupled with the annoying map layout (how the hell do I get to that point?!), mob density and their annoying CC skills meant it was a frustrating experience overall. I didn’t really explored Tangled Depths because of that and I avoid it at all costs.

Just my 2 cents.

I like the Reaper theme so much that I made it my main character, when returning to the game with HOT release. I just like the idea of a Death Knight wielding a greatsword, while shrouded in icy darkness (oh my )

Unfortunately, I felt off in all game modes – in PvP I would be knocked back while in shroud and then focused to death, while in PvE it looked like every other class has more damage than me.

Now I’m thinking of getting back to the game with the next expansion (although I didn’t really enjoy the preview weekend – kittenty experience for a solo player) and I want to play it with my favourite class. Can we get a buff please?

I came back to GW2 in the POF preview weekend and was a frustrating affair – all in the first story missions

First, that boss individual (Balthazar avatar?) exit the map through one direction expecting the player to follow him. But if you followed him you would just exit the story instance. When that pop-up triggered I wasn’t even sure what I am supposed to do. The answer was ofc :P to close it and exit the map through the opposite direction (why???)

Second, the fight that followed was too much for my skills – all the added enemies coming to me in waves + the hits from that boss guy meant I just quickly died. So I just quit the game.

At this point, I am intrigued by the new setting, new elites and the mounts but I am not sure I should buy the expansion. Also, I am not sure if this exp story is only intended for the active players (that are really good at the game) so most returning casual players should just forget it and move on.

The HOT difficulty is exacerbated by the difficult navigation and useless 2d minimap for the 3d environment. Also the waypoints are few and really far from each other.

There are a lot of places when you can’t really stop and try to understand where you are supposed to go in order to reach a certain point – the mobs will just kill you. Also forget about taking a quick bio break. Sometimes you can’t even move to a WP as you’re always in combat mode because the mob groups are so close to each other.

The first 2 jungle maps are somewhat ok but Tangled Depths is on another level of frustration.

Basically they made an expansion with 2x the difficulty (mobs, map navigation) for somewhat casual people playing GW2. They just had to pick one and stick with that.