Guild Wars 2

Looks good, bud! I’d give it some color, though.

And.. ignore all the hate people will give you. It’s a game, not real life.

oZii.2864:

Searching chill build in google would yield many results for chill builds for necro from around the games release.

Yes, and he is sharing his.

Which is useful! Thanks OP!

I’m getting this now too. I’d happily help a dev with debugging by generating a crash dump or something as soon as it happens for diagnostics?

Any ideas, devs?

Y’all need to getcher booties up in this guild, you hear me? It’s full of friendly, helpful folks who make the game entertaining to play.

This is why I love this community! You guys picked up a ton of stuff I forgot initially

Has anyone else ever gotten a strange feeling from Guild Wars 2 that they didn’t get from any other online RPG? One that they couldn’t quite put their finger on?

I’d temporarily played a few other MMOs recently at the behest of some other friends, but they were all missing a very specific “feeling” that I couldn’t put my finger on.

After coming back to GW2 (Which I continually do; this time just in time for the Adventure Box), I realized what it is.

It’s immediacy.

There are tons of challenges in the game to be had and random things to do, and the feature I could not put my finger on while playing the other MMOs was IMMEDIACY.

I can do anything with the push of a button, immediately.

SPVP? Hit a button.
WVW? Button, done
Trading post? Button.
Travel the entire map to get to the adventure box? Button for that too.

I know a lot of other games have similar features (dungeon finders, etc.) but to me that travel time was really important as far as “what should I be doing right now?”

In GW2, I am free to literally stop what I am doing, and flip track completely in a manner of seconds.

(Also, one of the other things I noticed was the model animation, and the feeling of actual control you have in this game. Standing in a different fashion on slopes, character models actually turning and slowing down to stop, etc.)

Anyway, just something I noticed. Anyone else find anything in this game that they find unacceptable as not being present in others when they play?

I love Guild Wars 2.

I love the story. I love the lore. I love the engine.

And I find myself thinking, for some strange reason,

“Can you imagine how epic it would be if they took the GW2 engine and made a Star Wars MMO?”

And now I cannot look at GW2 the same way again, because I keep wanting everything to be Star Wars.

No, there is no rhyme or reason. I just think it would be awesome.

LowestTruth.2635:

Bunnies aren’t just cute like everybody supposes,
they got them hoppy legs and twitchy little noses.

This is the most poignant post in this entire thread.

And since it’s just a quote from the Buffy musical, that should illustrate an upsetting perspective for anyone who has contributed anything alongside it.

C’mon, people. It’s a video game. You think every dredge you kill is evil?

Calcifire.1864:

Red Falcon.8257:

Figurative examples are used to explain a concept much like metaphors.
If one tells you that you move as gently as a T-rex inside a jewelry, it doesn’t mean T-rexes exist and they go in jewelries, it’s to make a point.
Unless you have Asperger’s syndrome it should be pretty obvious to understand.

as someone who has AS, you’ve got me wracking my brain trying to figure out what “move as gently as a T-rex inside a jewelry” could possibly relate to >_<

I’m not exactly sure why he implied that people with asperger’s couldn’t understand the concept of a metaphor to begin with. Not sure he understands the disorder :|

Gibson.4036:

Seriously, have you ever done any public speaking OP?

Colin’s explanation aside, if you’ve done any significant amount of public speaking, you’ll have said some stupid things from time to time.

It’s no indication of whether you know your topic or not. People make too much of this kind of thing.

Allow me to pull an excerpt from the end of the post for you:

“Feel free to jump in with something I may have missed,”

You must have just skipped it. No worries. That’s how people get misquoted, right?

Ursan.7846:

Bluebird.1890:

You mean the overreaction where I clearly ended the post by requesting that someone please prove that what I was posting was, in fact, erroneous?

Yeah. My mistake for asking for clarification before jumping to conclusions. That was my bad.

boggle

Haha, quite defensive aren’t we?

My comment was not really directed at your post. But some of the other responses in this thread definitely drew a chuckle out of me.

Right. Aggressive is funny, but passive aggressive isn’t. Got it.

Ursan.7846:

ColinJohanson.2394:

Since the actual question was never quoted, which is always fun if you’re going to get called on something, I’ll clarify for you as mentioned in another thread:

Yeah just for clarity, someone asked about balancing various under-used weapons and said something about “dual pistol mesmer” as an example, I figured that’s what he calls off-hand pistol and answered using the same verbiage asked. I’ve found travelling abroad, as well as across the fan base everyone uses different terms for part of the game, people still ask me all the time about our quest system for example, it’s easier to just respond with the terms they use so they understand.

I’m well aware mesmers can’t dual-wield pistols, we’ve only been working on it for 6 years now If there was double-pistols, my Mesmer would whoop you in PvP with them though, just sayin.

Off to play my double-pistol Warrior!

Thanks for the reply, Colin. Though the overreaction over the internet is always highly amusing. Not everyone thinks the devs are completely clueless and grasp at every scrap of information in order to confirm their biases. I swear!

You mean the overreaction where I clearly ended the post by requesting that someone please prove that what I was posting was, in fact, erroneous?

Yeah. My mistake for asking for clarification before jumping to conclusions. That was my bad.

boggle

ColinJohanson.2394:

Since the actual question was never quoted, which is always fun if you’re going to get called on something, I’ll clarify for you as mentioned in another thread:

Yeah just for clarity, someone asked about balancing various under-used weapons and said something about “dual pistol mesmer” as an example, I figured that’s what he calls off-hand pistol and answered using the same verbiage asked. I’ve found travelling abroad, as well as across the fan base everyone uses different terms for part of the game, people still ask me all the time about our quest system for example, it’s easier to just respond with the terms they use so they understand.

I’m well aware mesmers can’t dual-wield pistols, we’ve only been working on it for 6 years now If there was double-pistols, my Mesmer would whoop you in PvP with them though, just sayin.

Off to play my double-pistol Warrior!

Hah. Thanks for the response.

SkeeLd.2164:

Did I miss a patch where they added main hand pistol skills for mesmers or something?

That’s the point.

Source: http://www.guildwars2guru.com/news/1034-qa-with-colin-johanson-part-ii/

“Question about dual pistol mesmers.
Colin: You guys can go around the table and name your profession and one weapon that you think is weaker than the rest and it’s totally the case. We need to try and make those close to on par with the other weapons. And there’s always going to be one that someone perceives as the best. If it’s a choice like, “well I like double daggers better,” and, “I like staff better.” That’s okay – we want that. But if it’s just no one uses dual pistol mesmer because it just sucks? Those are clearly obvious ones that we need to go after first."
- from an interview with Colin.

Does anyone else see something… off, here?

I mean, if you don’t even know the basics of what weapons each class can use, how can you lead a development team and expect them to effectively balance a game?

Feel free to jump in with something I may have missed, but this just doesn’t sit right.

I’m not the kind of person who makes light of others hard work. You obviously put a lot of time into the video, and it was entertaining.

But I cannot seem to stop myself:

For the love of GOD man, BIND THOSE SKILLS. Watching you click was paiiinful :P

LieutenantGoogle.7326:

Bluebird.1890:

In this thread, we learned a few things:

1) UNIQUE on an item generally means you can only equip just 1.
2) Some people lost money learning this.
3) Arenanet will not give refunds for this, because they don’t have the tools to accurately refund people items and discern who is being honest or not.

Okay.

Can we end the thread now? Or are you guys going to sit here and try to kill eachother over semantics?

The reason #3 is quite ridiculous to be honest, 1k Karka Shell is by no means farmable efficiently..
Just looking at the trading post histories would be able to tell who spent money on the shells or not.

You aren’t getting a refund. Arenanet has stated it in no uncertain terms.

mulch.2586:

Their refusal to do refunds or restore lost items is based on policy, not technology.

Wrong.

“Thank you for contacting the Guild Wars 2 Support Team. We would like to be able to offer refunds or exchanges for purchases, but at this time we’re unable to make these kinds of adjustments to characters. We simply do not have the tools to provide this service.”

Avatar.1923:

@bluebird

you are speaking for me.
except i only have 36% map complete.

great game taken into moderation! and thats relative as i play probably 15-20h a week!!!

Same. I’ve got over 400 hours of playtime in the game, and I don’t have 100% world completion.

Apathy.6430:

Bluebird.1890:

Apathy.6430:

So, I’m thinking that the long leveling curve is what is accountable for all of the complaints, ascended gear, etc.

In Factions and Nightfall, the leveling curve consisted of about 15-20% of the game at most. It wasn’t much more than a tutorial. The actual game was the other 80%. People didn’t whine and expect “endgame” after they hit 20 because 80% of the game was level 20 content.

In Guild Wars 2, the leveling curve is something like 95% of the game. By the time you hit 80, you have one zone left. This seems to equate to people rush to level 80, then complain that there is nothing to do…after all, there is only 5% of the game geared for level 80s.

If you hit max level in your starting zone, the zones that are typically 1 to 15, do you believe there would still be complaints of “no endgame”, as the people who rushed to level 15 would still have 80-90% of the game to look forward to?

Hi. I’m level 80. I have 50% world completion.

Not only do I not only have 1 zone left, I have literally half of the game world. Not only that, but that doesn’t include dungeons, the new island, fractals, or sPvP.

Thanks for not speaking for me again!

Ah, so you can go do low level content.

Most who complain about no endgame don’t consider low level content to be content.

Thanks for not speaking for me again!

You were complaining about lack of endgame? Shame on you.

Low level content is content, and thus your (and their) arguments are invalid.

Apathy.6430:

So, I’m thinking that the long leveling curve is what is accountable for all of the complaints, ascended gear, etc.

In Factions and Nightfall, the leveling curve consisted of about 15-20% of the game at most. It wasn’t much more than a tutorial. The actual game was the other 80%. People didn’t whine and expect “endgame” after they hit 20 because 80% of the game was level 20 content.

In Guild Wars 2, the leveling curve is something like 95% of the game. By the time you hit 80, you have one zone left. This seems to equate to people rush to level 80, then complain that there is nothing to do…after all, there is only 5% of the game geared for level 80s.

If you hit max level in your starting zone, the zones that are typically 1 to 15, do you believe there would still be complaints of “no endgame”, as the people who rushed to level 15 would still have 80-90% of the game to look forward to?

Hi. I’m level 80. I have 50% world completion.

Not only do I have more than 1 zone left, I have literally half of the game world. Not only that, but that doesn’t include dungeons, the new island, fractals, or sPvP.

Thanks for not speaking for me again!

In this thread, we learned a few things:

1) UNIQUE on an item generally means you can only equip just 1.
2) Some people lost money learning this.
3) Arenanet will not give refunds for this, because they don’t have the tools to accurately refund people items and discern who is being honest or not.

Okay.

Can we end the thread now? Or are you guys going to sit here and try to kill eachother over semantics?

Tanith.5264:

When will the BLTC start selling tinfoil hats?

That was actually part of the stealth update that they just put in.

TheWarKeeper.5374:

Omega Mayhem.7163:

TheWarKeeper.5374:

Right, same old story, maintenance update that doesnt change content but requires you to redownload some files and replace or add more files to your game…

Hence the term ‘update’. rolls eyes

i dont know why i have to tell you that you missed the entire point rolls eyes

Oh! I know this one! It’s easy!

It’s because you failed to express your point articulately in your original post!

TheWarKeeper.5374:

Right, same old story, maintenance update that doesnt change content but requires you to redownload some files and replace or add more files to your game…

Right. It must be a conspiracy.

Morrigan.2809:

Archmortal.1027:

Bluebird.1890:

Your suggestion is exactly what I was envisioning.

“We have the resources to go in these directions. Which does the community prefer?”

And then you have nobody that can claim that the developer isn’t holding true to the players wishes.

The problem we run into is when it’s a close vote. Something like a Presidential vote where one candidate gets 55% of the vote and the other gets 45%. I don’t think a content decision coming down that close should be acted on just because it barely won. This is about everyone’s entertainment, not the side that just barely has more people voting for it.

this is why i think the beta pop-up would work so well.
For anyone who doesn’t know, it was basically a rating from 1-5, with a series of questions e.g.
was this fun
how would you rate the difficulty
did you feel like you contributed
how much do you feel you have impacted the world
etc with a little box at the end where you could add comments

This way you can get a good idea of how the players actually view the content and make decisions accordingly or not if people are basically split about it.

ps: the questions aren’t accurate I basically paraphrased them from memory

I remember the interface you are talking about. I wonder why that is gone now :/

Morrigan.2809:

See, now THIS is interesting.
It sounds like, in your opinion, the best solution here would be an avenue upon which we can actually judge the most popular opinion of the community instead of assuming the vocal forum contributors and Reddit community are the voice of the game.
Maybe a platform upon which we could vote for changes in gameplay design?
I like that a lot, actually.

Use the in-game system they used for feed back during the betas, it would work perfectly and would be input from people actually in the game.

Man, this would be so exciting to me. I really wish Arenanet would look at something like this.

Ditton.3149:

Bluebird.1890:

Dominae.3146:

Bluebird.1890:

Your analogy assumes that grind is an objective term, when it is subjective. Mushrooms are very easy to identify: If it is a mushroom, it is a mushroom. A restaurant can say “We are mushroom free!” because nobody can walk in and point at one of their pieces of broccoli, and call it a mushroom. They’d get laughed out of the restaurant.

This is not so for grind. People can misinterpret any part of the game that they don’t enjoy that has a reward for participating a “grind.” Anything that isn’t fun to some people get’s labeled “grind.” And with that, now Arenanet is guilty for going back on their word!

It doesn’t work that way.

And here we have the brunt of the argument. (And yes it does work that way.)

Yes, ‘grind’ is subjective. As I said above: as is ‘fun’ and ‘challenge’ and ‘effort’.

The whole gaming genre (and entertainment industry really) is built on subjective terminology.

Society … and in a business sense, your customers … they decide what the norms are, and define those subjective terms. “Mass subjectivity” happens … to the point where the subjective is nearly the objective.

If 1,000 people are at a concert, and all of them say “man that was terrible” … it was terrible. If the band shouts from the stage, saying it wasn’t terrible … well, they’re entitled to their subjective opinions but the people have spoken. Terrible just happened.

Obviously not everyone is going to be in agreement. BUT, sooner or later you’ll find that fulcrum point. Maybe 300 people think the concert is terrible. 700 liked it to different degrees though. Is that success? Either way, you should try better next time.

What if 700 people found it terrible? Is it worth listening to then? Do we still dismiss it as “well that is just their subjective/opinion.”

I’ll be ignoring the latter part of your post, as it is not relevant. If I wanted to gang up on people, I’d move my character to Jade Quarry and do WvW. It’d be much more satisfying.

You’d be better off joining servers that fight against Jade Quarry and then insulting the Jade Quarry WvW folks … that seems to ensure you’re in the majority of ganger-uppers.

See, now THIS is interesting.

It sounds like, in your opinion, the best solution here would be an avenue upon which we can actually judge the most popular opinion of the community instead of assuming the vocal forum contributors and Reddit community are the voice of the game.

Maybe a platform upon which we could vote for changes in gameplay design?

I like that a lot, actually.

Cant really see that happening at all. Unless what they gave us was already a list of options they knew they could make happen. Otherwise customers would invariably choose the options that were the most resource intensive because that is what we do.

Your suggestion is exactly what I was envisioning.

“We have the resources to go in these directions. Which does the community prefer?”

And then you have nobody that can claim that the developer isn’t holding true to the players wishes.

Nabbis:

Luckily for you, sir, the designers agree (At least, based on their most recent input from the AMA.)

Proposed solutions so far are allowing you to achieve the same rewards through different venues, and reducing the costs themselves. Thus, reducing the grind.

Dominae.3146:

Bluebird.1890:

Your analogy assumes that grind is an objective term, when it is subjective. Mushrooms are very easy to identify: If it is a mushroom, it is a mushroom. A restaurant can say “We are mushroom free!” because nobody can walk in and point at one of their pieces of broccoli, and call it a mushroom. They’d get laughed out of the restaurant.

This is not so for grind. People can misinterpret any part of the game that they don’t enjoy that has a reward for participating a “grind.” Anything that isn’t fun to some people get’s labeled “grind.” And with that, now Arenanet is guilty for going back on their word!

It doesn’t work that way.

And here we have the brunt of the argument. (And yes it does work that way.)

Yes, ‘grind’ is subjective. As I said above: as is ‘fun’ and ‘challenge’ and ‘effort’.

The whole gaming genre (and entertainment industry really) is built on subjective terminology.

Society … and in a business sense, your customers … they decide what the norms are, and define those subjective terms. “Mass subjectivity” happens … to the point where the subjective is nearly the objective.

If 1,000 people are at a concert, and all of them say “man that was terrible” … it was terrible. If the band shouts from the stage, saying it wasn’t terrible … well, they’re entitled to their subjective opinions but the people have spoken. Terrible just happened.

Obviously not everyone is going to be in agreement. BUT, sooner or later you’ll find that fulcrum point. Maybe 300 people think the concert is terrible. 700 liked it to different degrees though. Is that success? Either way, you should try better next time.

What if 700 people found it terrible? Is it worth listening to then? Do we still dismiss it as “well that is just their subjective/opinion.”

I’ll be ignoring the latter part of your post, as it is not relevant. If I wanted to gang up on people, I’d move my character to Jade Quarry and do WvW. It’d be much more satisfying.

You’d be better off joining servers that fight against Jade Quarry and then insulting the Jade Quarry WvW folks … that seems to ensure you’re in the majority of ganger-uppers.

See, now THIS is interesting.

It sounds like, in your opinion, the best solution here would be an avenue upon which we can actually judge the most popular opinion of the community instead of assuming the vocal forum contributors and Reddit community are the voice of the game.

Maybe a platform upon which we could vote for changes in gameplay design?

I like that a lot, actually.

Astral: I’m not sure if you’re trying to offend me, make an Inception reference, or just mashed your hands against the keyboard and this is what came out.

I’m not even really sure what you’re trying to say at all, actually.

I don’t have an argument, besides “Stop complaining, it’s being worked on.”

/boggle

Archmortal.1027:

Bluebird.1890:

I’ll be ignoring the latter part of your post, as it is not relevant. If I wanted to gang up on people, I’d move my character to Jade Quarry and do WvW. It’d be much more satisfying.

You mean Stormbluff Isles, right? We’ve been handing Jade Quarry its own butt for almost a month now.

I’m ON SBI Are we actually winning this match? I’m pretty sure JQ and SoS were stomping us last week. Every single time i got on I had outmanned up.

EDIT: ACK this is offtopic, don’t distract me or derail the thread. I don’t want it closed!

Ditton.3149:

what is forcing any of you to grind at all? I keep hearing that grinding is being forced and Im wondering what is forcing you to grind?

Hahaha. I wrote up all of this nonsense in huge formats totally too verbose, and you come in and sum up what I was trying to say in two questions.

Why are people grinding? The power variation between ascended and exotic is so minimal that it isn’t really worth the time if you aren’t having some semblance of fun doing it.

And if your response is, “Because there is nothing else to do,” then I think it may be time for you to do something else for a while. Give the game a break?

Adine.2184:

Bluebird.1890:

I have seen quite a few threads open up lately calling into question why the original posters, as a legitimate purchaser of a game, are ostracized from specific achievements or content because they don’t want to participate in a portion that is required in order to achieve the desired reward they are referencing.

IE:
- I don’t want to do W3 to achieve a Legendary.
- I cannot complete the clocktower to obtain an achievement.
- I do not want to run FOTM over and over to achieve Ascended gear.

Etc. You likely get the idea.

Now, this is not a troll post, in spite of what will inevitably follow as a response.

Have we stopped to consider why? I honestly am left dumbfounded reading threads like this, and cannot fathom the logic that was utilized in order to reach the conclusions driving their origins.

Do we not play video games for fun any more?

With all due respect I think you get posts like that because they don’t find doing WvW or grinding FOTM fun. So where as they may want the item to an extent the value of said item is outweighed by their lack of fun .Heres the thing though , They still want the items and their disappointment in not having a fun way to get them can be a factor in driving them away from the game .

I can understand this.

But, then, what IS fun for these people? Where is the positive reinforcement for the parts of the game that they do enjoy, and would like to see more of? All I see on these forums is “Stop this. It’s bad.”

Bugs and class feedback aside (I see plenty of good feedback there,) why aren’t we seeing some actual feedback from this kind of player besides “This is a grind and I hate it?”

Archmortal.1027:

Bluebird.1890:

My post was directed at the people actively attacking Arenanet and trying to change the way the game is played for those of us who are enjoying it, not for people who got bored and quit.

They do this because history has taught them that communicating is effective. Communicating loudly with people agreeing with you is even more effective. I wouldn’t say the majority of negative criticism is attacking ANET, though. Lots of it is angry and has an" I didn’t get my way" vibe to it and maybe some of these angry people quit over it, but they said something in hopes that it would be discussed/debated/argued, agreed with, and acted upon. The rest is mostly innocuous posting with personal speech habits muddling the discussion; lots of “I think” or “I want” or “I feel” instead of “this is a good idea” or “this happened” or “this is why.”

I apologize for lumping the people with good intentions and manners into a category in which they are juxtaposed with people who are behaving like entitled jerks.

My OP was more directed at the posts that you open and can easily acknowledge regardless of which side you are on that the person has nobody but themselves in mind.

I’ll avoid linking one directly as I’d prefer this remain a relatively friendly post, as it has so far.

Dominae.3146:

Bluebird.1890:

Dominae: (I don’t want to quote you because… yeah, it was long. I did read it though.)

Chris did address in his responses to our questions the fact that he feels the requirements to obtain ascended gear are too high right now, and that the solution is more ways to obtain the same gear through different avenues.

I think that kind of addresses what you are saying.

It does not address it, sadly. .. well, it addresses it, sure, but not in a satisfactory way for me personally. A grind is a grind. Making it slightly less of one still makes it a grind, and something I do not want to have to do for a reward.

Many people (myself included) dislike the ‘grind’ of the typical MMO genre. GW2 was touted as an MMO for people that dislike typical MMOs & grinds. (Fact.)

Now, they’re adding in the things from those ‘typical MMOs’ that those people came here to avoid. That obviously will not make those people happy.(Fact.)

Once you get people in the door, who are there because you said “we are NOT XYZ” and then start becoming XYZ, people are going to foam at the mouth.

Analogies are fun: I dislike mushrooms and am mildly allergic to them. If a restaurant says they’re “Mushroom Free” and I go there, I expect no mushrooms. If suddenly, after a couple months of me making them my go-to-place, I find ‘mushrooms everywhere’ I’m going to be upset.

Them putting out a press release that says they understand I hate mushrooms, and will look to tone it down … well that doesn’t help me. I’m anti-shroom, man. I came here because I’m anti-shroom.

… and if you say “well just eat around them” I’m going to scream.

So, Chris saying “yeah, grind sucks .. we’re looking to tone it down some though” does nothing for many people as it is folly to assume the new ways to achieve Ascended gear still won’t be a grind.

I like WvW … I do a lot. Know how many pieces of WvW gear I have? One, and I could just now afford a second. WvW exotics are countless hours more expensive than crafted ones (unless you basically sit on an arrow cart and blast a zerg the whole time you are in there). I maxxed my crafting (2 professions to make myself gear) in less than 2 hours and made my exotics. I’ve got over 180 hours in WvW since the game started and can afford 2.5 exotic items.

Bluebird.1890:

I would agree with you if the intent of my post were to piss as many people off as possible, but I honestly would like to try and understand where these people are coming from.

Most of them (see the one I just replied to) just repeat the same things over and over again, even after they’ve already been acknowledged, like somehow this is going to make things change faster.

To be honest, this thread seems, now, to be a thinly veiled feint to “understand” in which you actually hope the thread fills with others that feel the same as you, allowing you to gang up on those that disagree.

Tips to not ticking people off:
- Don’t call them “these people”
- Remain open minded and sincere if you’re actually attempting to understand them
- Avoid attacks, especially when you weren’t attacked … this includes actively trying to avoid being defensive

Also: Understand that people in the restaurant allergic to shrooms aren’t going to take “we’ll make the meals 20% less shroomy!” as a satisfactory response to their complaints.

Your analogy assumes that grind is an objective term, when it is subjective. Mushrooms are very easy to identify: If it is a mushroom, it is a mushroom. A restaurant can say “We are mushroom free!” because nobody can walk in and point at one of their pieces of broccoli, and call it a mushroom. They’d get laughed out of the restaurant.

This is not so for grind. People can misinterpret any part of the game that they don’t enjoy that has a reward for participating a “grind.” Anything that isn’t fun to some people get’s labeled “grind.” And with that, now Arenanet is guilty for going back on their word!

It doesn’t work that way.

I’ll be ignoring the latter part of your post, as it is not relevant. If I wanted to gang up on people, I’d move my character to Jade Quarry and do WvW. It’d be much more satisfying.

arcaneclarity.5283:

I have fun by not being psychologically manipulated with the skinner box.

I don’t know why this made me LOL, but it did.

I think the skinner box works quite well, if it’s implemented in strict moderation. It should never be the sole driving force behind why we do something, though.

Take sPVP as a perfect example.

People don’t sPVP to up their rank. They sPVP to beat the crap out of eachother, and they have fun doing it.

But, there is that thought of “I may rank up, and get some cool looking items.”

It helps. But it’s not the sole driving force.

Hellkaiser.6025:

It’s more like

“I don’t want to do x pvp section of the game to get a legendary”

“I don’t want to play the market or buy third party gold to get a legendary”

ergo

“I have not much else to do, so I’m going to play a different game seen as events in this game tend to drive me away due to the server loads”

You may be in the wrong thread, sir.

My post was directed at the people actively attacking Arenanet and trying to change the way the game is played for those of us who are enjoying it, not for people who got bored and quit.

That may be my fault for not being clear enough. I tend to get lost on tangents.

Slyder.9215:

Bluebird.1890:

Dominae: (I don’t want to quote you because… yeah, it was long. I did read it though.)

Chris did address in his responses to our questions the fact that he feels the requirements to obtain ascended gear are too high right now, and that the solution is more ways to obtain the same gear through different avenues.

I think that kind of addresses what you are saying.

Hence the wait and see.

Wait to see how (and if) they adjust the requirements to forge Ascended gear
Wait to see how they add Ascended gear to everywhere else
Wait to see if they really learned from the mistake they themselves admitted to making and not do it again.

I do the above, but keep on playing to have fun. Like I said, if I’m not (personally) having fun, I move on to do something else.

S’why I didn’t respond to your original post. I don’t really have any beef with your relatively innocuous mindset. It seems completely and totally reasonable to me.

“Play the fun parts. If it becomes less fun, stop playing.”

You sound like a smart guy.

Conner.4702:

Bluebird.1890:

Conner.4702:

Because you can’t appease both sides. One wants to go west the other east. Anet says let’s go north instead. the end result neither gets what they want. That’s what will happen if you try and keep both horizontal and vertical player groups. They will be left with the indifferent people that don’t care.

Except for the fact that there are players capable of understanding that the only realistic solution is to meet in the middle.

And we will keep playing. Thus, mine and my friends and my guilds continued presence in the game.

Sorry but no one ever has gotten better from compromise. You and your friends fall into the indifferent group or should I say apathic. Those on either side are actually capable of understanding how this can never work.

Compromise defines successful relationships. It’s a sign of empathy and understanding, not “apathy.”

It’s how people stay married, stay friends, or learn to love something they hated at some point.

It is an absolutely fundamental concept for living a happy life.

Dominae: (I don’t want to quote you because… yeah, it was long. I did read it though.)

Chris did address in his responses to our questions the fact that he feels the requirements to obtain ascended gear are too high right now, and that the solution is more ways to obtain the same gear through different avenues.

I think that kind of addresses what you are saying.

NaughtyProwler.8653:

Conner.4702:

Because you can’t appease both sides. One wants to go west the other east. Anet says let’s go north instead. the end result neither gets what they want. That’s what will happen if you try and keep both horizontal and vertical player groups. They will be left with the indifferent people that don’t care.

^ Bingo. Can’t please everyone. Just pick your group and run with them. If I would have known this was the direction of the game I would have stayed away rather than be part of the grand experiment.

Except, if you compromise and allow very specific vertical progression while still maintaining a low level of power gap between long time and short term players, you could appease both groups.

I guess that’s assuming that both groups are willing to make a compromise and admit that the only way for everyone to be happy to give way on one or two things in the direction they don’t want to go in.

The mentality that “It can’t happen, because I don’t want it to” is the problem, and it needs to go away.

Conner.4702:

Because you can’t appease both sides. One wants to go west the other east. Anet says let’s go north instead. the end result neither gets what they want. That’s what will happen if you try and keep both horizontal and vertical player groups. They will be left with the indifferent people that don’t care.

Except for the fact that there are players capable of understanding that the only realistic solution is to meet in the middle.

And we will keep playing. Thus, mine and my friends and my guilds continued presence in the game.

deborah.2068:

Areanet has created a big mess, from my point of view some of the verticle progression people dont feel accomplished unless they have something that most dont have or very few have. The horizontal progression people favor gear not being gated and being available to everyone so no one feels left behind. So how do you make the two groups happy?

The answer is Fractals of the Mist, where the content is only gated at a specific progression level and those who don’t wish to reach those levels do not have to, because they will afford little to no advantage to the players who ARE participating in them.

Facepunch.5710:

I agree with you pretty much on all points, except I don’t think you should have edited the post to remove your suggestion that much of the playerbase is unreasonable.

I made a pretty similar post last night, in which I asked everyone why they were being so negative, and I simply suggested that the game is a work in progress and I don’t believe the devs’ goal is to trick you out of your money. It apparently got pretty heated and was closed before I got up this morning.

I would agree with you if the intent of my post were to piss as many people off as possible, but I honestly would like to try and understand where these people are coming from.

Most of them (see the one I just replied to) just repeat the same things over and over again, even after they’ve already been acknowledged, like somehow this is going to make things change faster.

Corvindi.5734:

Perhaps you don’t understand the difference between effort and time spent repeating activities. Let me illustrate:

Sometimes when soloing it is an effort to stay alive. I use every ability and all my timing and spatial skills to accomplish that.

Sometimes when attempting to obtain a specific piece of gear, it takes a very long time of doing the same dungeons over and over to get that gear.

Now do you understand?

Setting your belittling demeanor aside (Not sure if the mods will do the same), your argument would hold water if it weren’t already openly admitted that the amount of repeating for one piece of gear isn’t ideal and is being worked on.

But it has been.

So, while I do understand you, I also have to just look at your point and wonder why you are even attempting to make it.

Mackdose.6504:

Logun.2349:

Bluebird.1890:

No. What we can blame people for is not having some patience after the apology is made to give them some time to try and fix the mistakes they obviously want to correct. We can also blame them for blowing the mistakes completely out of proportion to make it seem like the current status of the game is grind FOTM or you will be weak in comparison to someone who has grinded FOTM.

Neither of which is correct.

True perhaps, but if players didn’t ring the alarm bells now “loud and hard” the live team may have stayed on course to turn this into another endgame dungeon grind game, since they seemed to be oblivious to the impact this is having on the rest of the game.

Arena Net made a lot of statements on their game design philosophies over the years. I suggest watching a few of their developer and GDC Panels and you might get why people felt like this patch stepped on some of their core design values and why people were shocked to see this at all never mind 3 months after launch.

I did watch the GDC panels. Religiously. I still don’t feel betrayed, or understand why other people do.

I think the idea that Anet was working towards a gear grind on the caliber of WoW is intellectually dishonest. It’s not like ArenaNet suddenly has a different studio culture or long-term goals since launch. The idea that they were just bait and switching is a popular unfounded opinion that needs to die.

Giving players a sense of progression without making that progression the entire purpose behind the game is not a gear grind.

It’s a single facet to a game, in which there is sPVP, tPVP, W3, achievements, aesthetic rewards, holiday events, etc.

So, I agree. The argument is hyperbolic and intellectually dishonest. :[

Treeline.3865:

While you have some decent arguments, you kind of ruined it when you called the rest of us unreasonable. Thank you for that.

Sorry. That was not meant as an insult. It was a long write-up.

I will edit it to read “moderate.” Do not let a one word mistake ruin an entire discussion, as I posted it here for people to weigh in with their opinions.

I have seen quite a few threads open up lately calling into question why the original posters, as a legitimate purchaser of a game, are ostracized from specific achievements or content because they don’t want to participate in a portion that is required in order to achieve the desired reward they are referencing.

IE:
- I don’t want to do W3 to achieve a Legendary.
- I cannot complete the clocktower to obtain an achievement.
- I do not want to run FOTM over and over to achieve Ascended gear.

Etc. You likely get the idea.

Now, this is not a troll post, in spite of what will inevitably follow as a response.

Have we stopped to consider why? I honestly am left dumbfounded reading threads like this, and cannot fathom the logic that was utilized in order to reach the conclusions driving their origins.

Do we not play video games for fun any more?

What is a game developer supposed to do when a large demographic of their playerbase considers, “Get everything for nothing” as their definition of fun? The situation that this leaves us in is with a game developer who is simultaneously challenged to appeal to two complete and total polar opposite sides of the gaming spectrum:

1) People who want everything, with a minimal amount of effort. (Effort being more commonly referred to under the new nomenclature of “grind,” as simply playing the game at your own rate to achieve the max level is not an acceptable venue of progression. They want to be the most powerful for the least effort.)

2) People who want very little, for an extreme amount of effort. (They don’t call it grind; they call it vertical progression, and it is “essential to MMOs.”)

Where does this leave your average gamer who simply wants to play the game, reach max level, and if there are some people a little stronger than him or her, well, thats just life?

Why do #1 and #2 automatically get to assume the future shape of the game by segregating the community and making it appear as though you are either with us or against us?

The current status of the game has problems, and they have been openly admitted in the recent Reddit AMA, but they are easily fixable.

1) Finish implementing Ascended gear as a stepping stool between exotic and legendary items.

2) Ensure Ascended gear is achievable in all facets of the game to prevent a single point of progression (Which lends credence to people who call progression “grinding.” If you can do anything in the game to achieve a stronger character, you can no longer refer to earning the gear as grinding as you are simply participating in the game.)

3) Ensure that the gap in strength between a fresh max leveled character and a veteran is not such that the fresh character could not concievably be ostracized from a portion of the game due to his inability to contribute on the level of the veteran (Which, so far, is moving along swimmingly. The power increase in current ascended items does not afford an automatic victory to any player in W3 or PVE.)

These are all very simple things to do. They are all on the “to-do” list, and Whiteside has told us they are being worked on as we speak.

So, why are people quitting? Why are people complaining? Why aren’t people happy with a game where developers are trying to comprimise between the two extremes and doing a pretty kitten good job of it from the view point of someone in the middle? (I have 400+ hours logged, 1 80, and I regularly participate in all facets of the game, and spend plenty of money on gems.)

Your money is still good at the trading post. Your mats will still contribute to the end product.

Ask yourself: if you aren’t having fun in the game, because you are only experiencing one facet of the game because thats where the rewards currently are, when you could be having fun playing another portion, who is really to blame for that?

I’ll put on my flamesuit now, for anyone that actually bothered to read this all.

And to Arenanet, thank you for trying. You are doing a good job with keeping your moderate playerbase happy by not bending too far in either direction. Please don’t buckle.

Respectfully,

Mr Bluebird.