Showing Posts For Delweyn.1309:
I copy/past my answer
The win/lose depends a lot from mates.
I still don’t know how the game calculate it but what’s sure, there are moments where you match always with the best (and win 8 matches/10), and there are moments where you match always with the worst (and lost 8 matches/10).
And when you lose, it’s often 150 to 500. The difference of team power is just crazy, and it repeats as long that you are in the bad phase.
I rarely make 1 victory for 1 lose.
So my advise is, if you lose 2 matches in a row, just stop the game, and come back few hours later. It’s stupid because we don’t have all the time to play when we want.
And if you win, then continue :p Even with stupid builds like staff elem dps or dual gun thief i win in those winning phases. So no problem.
Otherwise, continue to lose and when you will have lost 15 games in a row, the game will be happy then you will gain the 15 next.
The second thing that ruins our game it’s the dual compo. They gives incredible power boost to the team. It’s often hard to finish because the other came to help, they come by 2 and you are alone. And it’s often 2 good players who assure 2 places in the group of 5.
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The win/lose depends a lot from mates.
I still don’t know how the game calculate it but what’s sure, there are moments where you match always with the best (and win 8 matches/10), and there are moments where you match always with the worst (and lost 8 matches/10).
And when you lose, it’s often 150 to 500. The difference of team power is just crazy, and it repeats as long that you are in the bad phase.
I rarely make 1 victory for 1 lose.
So my advise is, if you lose 2 matches in a row, just stop the game, and come back few hours later.
And if you win, then continue :p Even with stupid builds like staff elem dps or dual gun thief i win in those winning phases. So no problem.
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Does the game completly left pvp and ideas to ameliorate / diversify it ?
Will GW2 be a full pve mmorpg ?
Yes, one of the biggest problem of the game was not changed.
It’s like the fact that we can’t duel quietly in this game. There are things very simple that exists in every other games and will give us a better quality of life’s game, that don’t exist in GW for very obscure reasons.
I play all classes. I switch often and do pvp dailies.
For my thief as exemple, I play 3 differents builds for the 3 game’s modes :
- Double pistol in WvW
- Dagger/pistol in pve
- Pistol/dagger in pvp with condi build.
Last time i left the game after a wvw session. I log back today and push the pvp button. And during the time wait I check things in my house. Obviously I was with dual pistol with my condi build…
It would be so simple to put a build and weapon saver… Anet don’t care maybe but I would not have lost my time and 4 other people’s time with this.
It blocks you inside walls of at least 2 maps : Niflhel & Kyhlo maps
It makes you jump at 10 metres and kills you by falling in Legacy of the Foefire
Maybe one day ?
It happens with other skills that push you.
I think the best way to repopulate the pvp in GW2 is to give reward to players depending on simple objectives that they can do individually. It will push players to play until the end.
- The game should reward each players depending on their individual stats (ex. Objective to do big damages, or not be killed at all, or be tanky on a spot…).
- There should be pvp mode for soloQ, with more players and bigger maps (so that the difference of lvl between players are a bit balanced by the number).
The pvp will be easier to jump into, more fun, with less stress because of a unique mode made for organized teams & reward depending on the whole team’s result.
But The current 5v5conquest mode is good and should be keeped, but for organized teams only.
It’s calms me when I see someone saying “have fun all” at the beginning of the match, or something like this. It reminds me that it’s a game and a game should bring fun and happiness. But this game sometimes just push you to your limits. It destroys your reason.
This feeeling, I never experienced it in any other mmo. I played WOW for a long time and I never had this feeling of continuously losing. Sometimes we were losing and ennemies were farming us at our cimetary. But it changed in the nexts matches. Same for other mmorpg.
This is just GW2. And this game just brings out my worst side.
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Best way to play this game….casual and for fun!!
There are moment where you have time and will to play the game. You want to dedicate your time to the game. But when it’s a moment where the game has calculated to puts you always with the worst players. It’s just sad.
For the fun, sometimes you comes with nice feeling But, as I said, even most calm people can’t bear it when they lose continually ans you see that you are better than all ennemies in the other team.
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A game should bring fun.
But GW2’s pvp just brings frustrations, hate, bad manners. And with time bad feelings even when we try to be reasonnable.
Why ?
In a pvp gmes, sometimes we win, sometimes we lose. It’s the game. Most people accepts it. There is nothing to be sad or angry about.
But because of the bad matchmaking, when we lose 8-10 times in a row, and each time you see that you are better than most ennemies, but you continue to lose because the game puts you always with the worst people, there is a time where you just can’t accept it anymore.
I’m not a young player and I’m quite reasonable in normal situation. But because of this incredibly bad matchmaking system, it just push you to your limits and there is a moment where you can’t bear it anymore. And what’s the result ? You do things that you don’t endorse in normal times. You get afk, you are not playing at 100%, you talk bad…. And after, you just regret it and think that it’s not you. A shame.
Then you stop the game (even if you have time and will to play the game). But the frustration comes back again, and again, and again, because of this really bad matchmaking system.
Anet, do you like making people angry and bad ?
I think I really need a break. You’re so bad people…
Would you want to see any changes to Courtyard before it came back? A new mechanic, perhaps?
Hello, yes.
- at least a 8v8 mode.
- A bigger map where players will not be stuck all together.
- More open space to move/run (less walls and spaces to hide)
- A canon mechanic (easier to use than treb). It will be a solution for players who are not good in fights and to dispatch ennemy teams.
Ty.
The problem is that matchmaking is made with a player mmr. But the player mmr is made from a whole team’s result. So a mmr is made with luck. If a very bad player has the luck to be teamed often with good players, he will win often and then have a nice mmr.
It’s the simple explication of all this problem with matchmaking.
The unique solution is to take each player’s stats individualy.
And for those ppl who argue that they can carry a team a whole match by doing 1v2 in a point. There can be stats that counts : damages takken, or the time spend in fight or better : a stat that take into account the time spend in fight near a point X number of ennemies near the point – number of allies near the point.
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No. It’s unfair to put teams vs pugs.
But the best would be mode for teams only and mode for pugs only.
I never seen such a bad matchmaking system. We all agree on it (except some fanboys). It puts together people who are nothing to do together in ranked teams. Nothing. The differences are just huge and it just broke the whole balance in a gamemode where there is only 5 players in a team.
Maybe it’s because i’m on the EU servers, maybe i’m a weird player but i think the matchmaking works with the current system.
Quite honestly the biggest problem i could see is too small a playerbase to draw matches out of and that’s not something you’ll fix by introducing more and more filters into the search.
Sure, your perceived result will be more accurate but in this case that is not something you want to that level.Your changes would lead to an incredible increase in queue times as the system would have to look all that over and find people exactly in your range, the possible sample to look into though would get smaller and smaller with each round, and, worst case, different characters played by the same person.
If anything A-Net should do a per character rating and, as sadly was voted out, lock the character relog at the start of a round.
Not at all because if the game match us with ppl much higher or lower of our level, because there is no other players, it’s not a problem. In all case him and you will gain points depending on what u do in the game.
With this system, people will less care to be with bad teammates because they will know that if they are doing well, they will gain more points (or lose less).
The stats are usefull because it will take into account everything :
- Number of decap – Damages – Finishing kills (for thief)
- Time spend at defending point – Damages guarded – Heals – Revives (tank)
- Damages – kills – Damages near defending points (for damages dealers)
- Heals – Revives – number of condi clean – Defend points (for supports)
- If someone hase good place in numerous categories then it means that he caried the game. So more points for him.
- Reduce by number of deaths -
And it’s just exemples. So there is ways to evaluate more accurately the work done by every players in the match.
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The rank system is atm completly broken and stupid because it continues to work as if players where playing as a whole organized teams of 5.
So the reward/lose is nearly the same for all 5 players from the same team even if some ppl are better. In fact the game don’t reward people for their skill and effort.
It’s why people are going afk more and more. Why continue to fight if you are convinced that you will lose ? Being afk or playing as if your life were brought into play, it will be the same result.
For solo, the game should take into account the individual performances to calculate the points reward (or lose). Not only taking into account the first place in each category, but the overall place in all categories, so that every style of gameplay can be valorized (not only big numbers of damages or heal).
So even if a player lose because of his teammates, if he plays at 110%, he will lose much less points than people who were dying 15 times, went afk halt the time or fighting outside the points.
This system is the only solution to push people to play everymatches at 100% in a random pug mode.
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At the end, there would be X ratio depending on the difference between our team’s score and ennemy team.
- If we lose and the difference is huge (so hard game) a ppl who play well will gain more points
- If we win or lose and the difference is small (balanced game) no ratio
- If we win with a huge difference (se ez game) every players of the team will gain less (depending on each stats individually obviously)
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The game should separate 2 modes :
1 – random pugs with indivudal stats for points calcul
2 – teams with current system.
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Guy, it depends on hours. The system matchmaking is really stupid and there is nothing that you can do when you are in the phase where the game puts you always with the bad players.
Check the scores too. It’s rarely balanced during the phases. When the game décides to put you with the worst players you get absolutly rek. But when the game decides to put you with the good players, you crush the ennemy team.
Same day :
Loses phase : http://hpics.li/a538590
Victory phase : http://hpics.li/d5f27f4
And players who can play all day will all notice this matchmaking broken system depending on hours only.
(I don’t know for those who play duo , I only tag as a solo player)
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Yes, and your story is the same for more and more players.
As long that they will not separate competite mode with full teams or the current 5v5 conquest mode / and bring new modes for solo ppl, it will continue to be a bad pvp. No one will be satisfied.
It’s maybe time to take good decisions and new cap for pvp, but well … I will not repeat myself.
If he puts names, his threat will be closed and he will receive a warning.
There is a reason GW1 is still to this day the best pvp if you want a real challenge ( Also lack of jumping is something i do not miss ). The key to the pvp was simplicity.
You Kill or Be Killed. None of this dance around a circle and zerg each other with stuns and conditions while one person on a team runs to other little circles for points. Runs in GW1 Random Team arena and for instance The glory of Heroes’ Ascent just made people want to play. The fights that even required NPC’s became epic in HA. When you saw your Team name flash to the world it became a Honor in the day. Having a good strong guild was required then to have multiple teams fighting in different time zones to hold that title. It was Glorious.
Lets go back to the glory of world live competition in game like HA. Lets also move away from circle dancing and go back to blood thirsty kill or be killed.
There is a chance to save pvp with how the game works all that would be needed is more skill diversity and going back to some old school pvp. There is still life in pvp if acted on after this season is over.
This reminds me of some topics back in the 2012, when GW2 was very young.
Anet didn’t care then, why they should care now?
Sad but true :/ They continued to focus only about what THEY thought was THE best. I’m not happy but it’s just a fair situation that they failed so hard.
Like I said, instead of trying to surpass what failed, they just gave up, and focus only on what worked : pve. Sad but I think every one can see it.
It’s was AGAIN a 5v5 designed with a competitive goal.
MOst people want a simple pvp, playing with a bit of people, not only 5, like a good capture the flag that prove itselft to be just fun for pvp.
But nahh Anet continue to focus on same mistake again and gain. And no there is nothing at all.
The current pvp is dead. There is solution, put effort to bring new modes but I think that Anet gave up by disappointment.
I think that what they have done for the current unique mode is not so bad (exception for the matchmaking that is just ridiculous). But they have done absolutly nothing to bring new pvp.
The current pvp is just designed for teams only. But most players are solo ppl. So to make pvp more interesting for them they should thing about other modes designed for solo players. But they don’t.
And we all don’t understand why they didn’t put a proper duel system as community asked for it since day 1. A complete mystery.
But I think that they just didn’t care about what community asked for. They just brainlessly focus on their unique 5v5 conquest mode and try to believe on it until the end.
The community asked 1v1 duel since first day. There were people asking for other things than conquest. Same for other things than 5v5. So no, ur wrong. They focus like crazy on what they thought was the best (5v5 conquest) and time tells us that it was a mistake.
So now, after so much hope put in this for a fail, they gave up.
It’s not the problem to fail. It’s just pitifull to abandon pvp like a a loser :/
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The future of the game is to have a strong will to make it better, and put time and effort in it. But as dev. has completly give up, there is no future. They prefer to put their effort in pve and living world. A shame.
No 5v5 is good for teams. But for pugs it need a 10 v 10 where the difference of lvl between players will be attenuated by the number.
When I remember that people told me that GW was great pvp game…. People will now keep the image of a fail pvp game :/ Sad story.
The esport pvp is a fail but Anet don’t change the rules to make it a fun pvp. Still keep their 5v5 conquest mode. Nothing else with no communication.
If even the matchmaking was good but it’s a real catastrophe. And no will to propose something better. It’s best to hide and make the ostrich.
The funny thing is everyone saying the build is easy to beat when I know for a fact every single person who said that in this thread would lose to maygi in a 1v2
Haha, it’s always the same, people have big mouth and write theories. They say : “The things are like this, it’s easy, we must do like this this and this and ezz. You are noob if you can’t do this.”
The 5v5 conquest mode is made for teams organized of 5 peoples, not 5 pugs.
When a pug is afk or deco the game balance breaks and it’s why the 4 others just play for nothing, a lose (at 99.99%).
With 10 v 10 in big maps, an afk or deco will have muuch less impact and the other will still have the will to fight and play.
It’s ok to keep this mode but they should make other modes, less competitive, but more fun for people who just want to fight without just victory in their mind. (The lose in this bad competitive mode is what make people more angry, salty and to be afk…). Stop the 5v5 conquest mode now that esport failed.
Edit : I change : let’s keep the 5v5 conquest mode for teams, but the game needs another pvp mode, more cool.
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The 5v5 conquest mode is made for teams organized of 5 peoples, not 5 pugs.
When a pug is afk or deco the game balance breaks and it’s why the 4 others just play for nothing, a lose (at 99.99%).
With 10 v 10 in big maps, an afk or deco will have much less impact and the other will still have the will to fight and play.
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Even dual pistols is more skillfull (not in attack) because they must take care of their survability with position, dodges, moves…
The d/d build is the best thing for pveboys who want to shine in pvp, because they just have to take care of rotations, like pve.
Hoepefully they make few changes about some systems and balances.
But as I said, it’s not a big investment for them. Nothing, like a real will to make the pvp in general better, to be more attractive and fun for more people.
I think they really should rethink the whole thing (build for competitive goal). But it means more investment, something that Anet left because of what I said. It’s not to be sour, it’s a reality.
Is it harder to build a map for 10v10 with simple rules like defend the cristal, or a whole big new map with all new events and all of their living story ?
Their disappointment is so huge that they prefer to forgot completly new things for pvp. A psychological rejection.
When people get disappointed a lot by a big fail, there is 2 attitudes :
1 – Keep a strong will and ameliorate what was done (like FFXIV)
2 – Throw up the hands and don’t want to bring modifications, sulk in a corner and don’t give news.
Ok, Anet, your goal for a competitive pvp failed but does it means that you should be so salty and don’t even want to do the few things that could at least bring new things and fun for players ?
Maybe a duel system, more than 5v5 and other things than conquest ?
But you can continue to flee and put all your efforts for the living story, pve and raids. A shame and a bit pitifull, from my point of view.
The people are doing like you. When it’s seems too hard, they get afk very soon, just after the first fail, lost fight or 50 points late.
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A good reason to put 10v10 on bigger maps is that the impact of 1 player is much less important. So I’m pretty sure that it will please more ppl who don’t like pvp because they don’t like to be focused too much.
And the pvp is more and more unplayable the more I continue to gain pvp levels. The more I play (and gain levels) the more I lose (the mornings).
I’m pretty sure that if i could reset me pvp level it would have been more equilibrated and fun.
Anet worked and focused a lot (only ?) on this conquest mode, in hope to propose a competitive mode in pvp. It doesn’t worked as intented.
So now, can we have other modes, maybe less competitive, but with more diversity and fun in pvp ?
Like :
- 10 v 10 in bigger maps
- capture flag or defend/destroy cristal
- better deathmatch (map less confuse and bigger than the previous one)
The pvp can still give a lot of fun to more players who just want to fight without pretention to be top players.
I think it should not be so hard and it will be a solid content for more players (those who just want pvp without the frustration of the 5v5 on small maps designed for competitive teamplay mode).
Every day, every morning, and afternoon….
I’m pretty sure that the game take into account things like time spend in pvp – our pvp level or rank… and to equilibrate, puts you with the worst players.
It’s just boring and makes us want to afk when seeing the low lvl of ennemies, and see that we still lose.
So many exemples : last time we were defending at 2 against 4 at 1 point for +45 sec. and in the map ennemies had the 2 other points !!!
And there are moments… People who play often at different moment of the day understand (under rank of legend and high plat) should have seen it. Sometimes one can win 8 matches/10. And sometimes one can lose 8 Matches/10 with loses like 100 to 500.
This is probably because there is not much people and the system works like I said. I’m far from being the best player but I can estimate the level of ennemies and sometimes it’s really easy and my team still lose everywhere.
We all experienced the moments (like as a thief) where you move in all the map and cross ennemies only everywhere, like if we were alone in this f#!*¤ map.
I hope it ll be like this, yes.
WvW is good but the server’s objectives push players to group. So there’s nothing in GW2 between the 5v5 tournaments and the blob fights of WvW.
Players who want to have the hunt&survive feeling have nothing. We could get it a bit in the WvW jumping map but the fact that the 3 factions begin at the same spot make it more like open arena than hunt&survive type game.
But in all cases, in this new WvW map, I think that players must have goals to get there, like dailies rewards/tokken for special unique items. Otherwise, it will not pull lot of players.
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Sorry, i didnt explain very well. U true Fagins, when u talk about the Tol Bard event.
I thought more about the place after the event, where players had to do dailies in the lower map of the tol Barad, and in upper place.
The dailies pulled lot of players all the day and i was fun to have much occasions to pvp. More than outside normal lvling maps who was nearly empty.
So thats why I think that GW2 could put a similar system, with a special map or place with dailies and rewards, without changing all his pve system.
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Hello,
I just saw that dev. work on new maps and mod. It’s very nice (at last, I would like to say ^^).
But my question is : is there news on a future type of pvp, that looks like more like free/open pvp ? With quite big open maps (maybe even intenational maps), where players could go to achieve some daily quests and possiblité to free pvp ?
Juste like the “Tol Barad” in WOW ? (precision : not the pvp match event, but the map with dailies quests)
GW2 has his rules and privilegiate structured/competitive pvp, I know. But GW2 is really missing the type of free pvp that could be fun for most people.
And I dont speak about mcm maps where it’s nearly impossible to do 1v1. There is mostly big groups doing objectives.
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is thoughts better than reflections ?
Hello,
First of all, I must apologize for my average english. But I put efforts to make a complete post about some of my thoughs about the game, because I read that developpers look at the forum and I think that GW2 has a lot of potential.
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In PVE
GW2 made choice of giving players possibility to play alone and doing most of the thinks alone : exploration – the 100%, most of the events, donjons… Thats really great.
Only the latests patchs, especially the new Tequatl and the lastest donjon need more organization but are still realisable alone if we can find groups.
Being able to do most of the pve game alone gives players a lot of freedom. They can do what they want, when they want. Because their guildmates are not connected or busy, because they want to play just alone listening music and doing things at their rythm…
This kind of gameplay gives to all players satisfaction. Team gameplay, however, please a lot smaller population of players.
I’m not saying that players who want to play together should not be satisfied. No. But I think that GW2 found a good compromise between activities for groups and solo players.
But remember, solo players are much more numerous than groups players. Thats a fact.
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Now in PVP.
Its seems that devloppers made the opposite choice. They favour only the team/group gameplay.
- In WvW : objectives encourage players to join bus.
- In the Mists : only 1 type of tournament match : capture that is orientated for teams.
The problem is : there is still much more player who want to play and do things alone in pvp too !
- In WvW, if I want to go pvp alone : I can walk for minutes before meet someone or I meet a bus.
- In the Mists, if I want to go pvp alone : the most interesting is the tournament soloQ but this is a type of game otientated for teams and my final score/victory is decided a lot by the random guy of my team. Why I can’t be rewarded by my only own skill ?
Ok, team organized pvp is great. It require qualities like organization (often vocal) and should bring players fun and pleasure to realize something together.
Allright, but its restrictive. A lot of player don’t want to do effort to create/join a team and don’t want to be pushed to use a vocal and play at certain times and so and so. And the fact is that those solo players represent the majority. Thats why Anet removed the tournament in 3 rounds and the evening teams meets the same teams.
And in WvW, players stick together because alone they can’t do much things.
We know that pvp, when well builded, represents an unlimited end game. Just looking at the succes of FPS or fighting games or STR. Players like to compare themselves. So that’s why pvp should not be abandoned or underestimated.
And, important, pvp that players can do alone.
And that’s what I want to point for GW2. Developpers seems to focus on pve and living world. Those are great but pvp should attract more attention.
I know that developpers are thinking about new type of pvp in the Mist but they must think too about open world pvp (WvW). Because players want to use their stuff pve and it’s normal. It’s a type of pvp the less restrictive and accessible very easily to all at all moment. In the mist it’s a kinf of pvp very formatted and limited.
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For this, I think that the WvW maps should be reworked to include a lot of activities in every areas to do for soling players : like events, and lot of succes to do. It ll be like an open world pvp space (a form of pvp that lot of players like but does not exist in GW2).
For exemple, the Tol Barad in Word of Warcraft can be good exemple. At the beginning, when people wanted the tokken and all the things in the shop, there were a lot of players in this space, doing quests. It was living and not obligatory. There where players who wanted to do it in teams but a lot of players too who get there alone.
I think that WvW maps could be used to include this type of pvp, less restrictive.
Maybe developpers could think about it. After all, the more players the game will please, the better it ll be. And I think that the game can bring satisfaction to all.
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It ll use all already done skins of the game and most mechanics. So event if there should be things more important to do before (like some bugs), i think id should not be so big to create ingame, like a new extension. Well, i’m not sure.
Would be nice. And as a team of players can participate in same defense, it could be fun, i think :p
Yes, the idea is not new but what could be fun is to use it in GW2.
The idea came after doing an event that looks like this and because I like to spend some time, from time to time, in this type of game.
By tower I don’t mean enormous castle but like a small village and towers ll be like flower mortars.
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No one would be obliged to play it.
There could/should be rewards nethertheless (title, karma, maybe gold, ameliorations…)
Like the fractals, there ll be no limits in difficulty.
We can play alone or with friends (difficulty ll change accordingly the number of players).
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So, how could it work ?
In a place (there could be numerous maps) player ll have to defend a village/fortification.
Monster’s waves ll come at regular times and will increase in difficulty (type, power, number of monsters – with some veterans and bosses at some points, like every 10, 30 or 50 waves).
Monsters ll go to hit and try to destroy some statue or wall that player must defend at all cost, or game over. It could be the player himself.
Monsters will have some special abilities (fast, specialisation in wall destroy, in units destroy, resistance againts some effects and so…)
In a window, players ll see the time before the few next waves, the kind and number of monster.
If player have destroyed fast the previous wave, he could faster the next so gain a bonus of special money.
Every monster will give money. Elite and bosses will give more.
There could be a system of lvl for the player. After reaching some number of waves, player ll be able to use new types of defenses.
Player ll not be able to use his class abilities but his 10 skills actions will be towers/units constructions. So he won’t be able to attack ennemies but monsters could attack him. It could be used to lure monsters in some points or elaborate some strategies.
What could do the player ?
He ll begin with some special ingame money.
He ll have to spend it in defenses, make good choices.
He ll have to place strategicaly defenses.
He could buy and place a new type of defense or upgrade one already builded.
Exemple of defenses :
- walls (reflecting damages walls, more resistants against some kind of monster…)
- towers of differents type (slowing, big damages but slow, aoe effect, fast single target, more damages againts some types of monsters, detecting invisibility, pulling monsters…)
- units (skrits, humans, elemental, in fact all races of the lore… with differents abilities and caracteristics : bowmen, guards, healers…). Units protect an area around the point you put them.
Units works differently from towers. They gain lvls after some kills and if they don’t die.
- Forge and armory : You could spend some money to produce some upgrades (new weapons and armors) for your units.
- Mines (slowing, freezing, poisoning, backpushing, single or aoe damaging,…)
- Canons with different abilities, that players can use if they have time
- Flags that boost some units or towers
- 1 time using items (faster construction, give rage, reflect or other bonuses for units for some time, reviving an unit, speed moving buff to help player to go faster to a point where he has something to build or repair….)
Edit :
As part of end game content, players could buy/craft/drop some plans in the GW2 world to use them in the forge and armory to equip his units.
It could be the same for some type of defense that players could discover after a questline, or finding special items hidden in all the world to create a new tower.
Some ideas of maps !
- A beach where an enemy skeleton boat would be see in the background. Monster’s waves ll come from the sea and from left and right sides of the beach. The tequatl rising from water could be one boss.
- A village of toads in the swamp with the giant worm as a boss.
- The dead end of some vault, lightend by torches, withs waves of some ghosts and living deads coming with good noises from the dark background. The music should be appropriate too.
- Snow with frost giants and barbarians from frost world.
In fact mostly all places could be used :x
(edited by Delweyn.1309)