Guild Wars 2

You are discussing semantics and maths. I think you know what people mean by “GW1 is not an MMO”. Maybe the poor choice of words (to keep it short probably), but it’s perfectly clear what is conveyed by that, whether you can actually refute that or not.

Just one thing, may seem nitpicky, but IMHO it’s important – GW2 is not F2P, it’s B2P (buy to play). While I see what your point is, I do think that the difference is relevant, as I tend to see people on the forums justifying potential company’s bad moves or negligence with “it’s F2P, what else do you want” argument and I think it would be bad if this thought pattern stuck.

El Hefe.2814:

@Doolio – no your p.p.s sums it up pretty good. it’s so simple it’s confusing. just play til your not having fun anymore.

Very funny indeed, but I thank you for proving my point by your post.

El Hefe.2814:

@Doolio – no your p.p.s sums it up pretty good. it’s so simple it’s confusing. just play til your not having fun anymore.

Very funny indeed, but I thank you for proving my point by your post.

Hefe, it’s cool that you enjoy playing, but playing dumb while other people provide you with numerous different and (also) true aspects isn’t.

I mean, you constantly keep repeating “if it’s not fun, stop playing” and “gear is optional”. You constantly disregard the fact that people WANT to play GW2 and are upset about changes they think undermine that experience. It’s not hard to understand, why are you playing like you don’t? I mean, OF COURSE, if someone is brought to the point of quitting the game, he will quit and nobody is going to die or anything similar. But, that certainly isn’t the only factor in the equation and please don’t try to present it as such.

It’s basically like this:

dude: – the swimming pool in our town is garbage. The pumps are not working and overall it’s kitteny. The town has the means to repair it, but they won’t. The citizens are pretty upset with it, as they see no reason for ignoring that situation.

hefe: -swimming in a pool is not mandatory, it’s optional. Not like your sewer isn’t working. Also, I have heard your town has some excellent ice cream vendors, there must be stuff you like to do in your town.

I mean, you CAN’T put everything in the “if you don’t like it, don’t do it, it’s optional” perspective. If you dumb down the whole concept of a video game experience to that level than yes, EVERYTHING is optional, including the video game itself.

But
that
is
not
the
point

p.s.
I am sorry for the bitter tone of my post, but honestly, I feel like I am watching bunch of people making fools of themselves trying to talk to a person that simply refuses to discuss anything outside his own approach, just for the sake of it, but that didn’t stopped him from making a thread about it…

p.p.s.
Personally, I am not concerned about recent changes as I don’t mind having gear treadmill – and this is important for the point – despite being an extremely casual player that is certain to drop out of all the groups as I have about 3-4 hours per week to play AND I am a solo player. So I am bound to playing SPVP, getting steamrolled in WvWvW or smelling flowers across Tyria. When I get tired of that, I would quit, pause, or, if possible, raise my game to a next level.
So, you see, I am going by your philosophy maybe more than you do, Hefe.
Which doesn’t mean I don’t understand what others are saying. And I don’t believe you don’t either. Hence this post.

My problem with hearts, quests, events is that I feel tricked by the massive marketing campaign. A simple script that changes “omg we are attacked” to “we are saved” for five minutes in a small area is not “a lasting change in a dynamic breathing world”. Yes, I have expected too much obviously, but the campaign left no room for something else.
If we disregard that, hearts and stuff are pretty much the same as in every other game, nothing wrong with them. I think that a lot of players feel the same as I do and that that is the main complaint they have about hearts and events, just formulated differently from case to case.

As for the second point, well, it’s relative. You are happy to do things you have mentioned, me, not so much. And no, it’s not because I am ungrateful or because I expect too much from a new game etc. For starters, I see the state of spvp shameful, to say the least, in almost every aspect (maps, bugs, balance, stats, ladder, game modes, tactics, glory gain system etc.). In my opinion, there is no excuse for that, yes, the game is new, but it’s way past alpha, where I think current state of things belong.

Exploration of a whole map should be a bonus and a personal incentive to SOME players, not something that you should take for granted as the thing that provides additional content. Yes, everything is BASICALLY a bonus and a personal incentive in an MMORPG, but you know what I mean.

As for PvE, in my opinion, there is also a lot of stuff that should be repaired and tweaked, which is normal, but there are some that require more than simple patching and, again, that should be done way before beta. For example, badly done level scaling (you can still roflstomp lower level areas, and the loot is poor, leaving no incentive for a player to go back, thus effectively negating the “whole game is the endgame” principle) and some other things (lol, i got baby in my lap and I can’t continue as I have to play Noddy or something)… you get the picture:)

For me, it’s really about personal situation. I don’t have fixed working hours – I work from home, mainly freelancing and I am an illustrator, so basically I can run around Tyria for twenty minutes, than minimize GW2 and work on that shoulder pads in photoshop for 30 minutes, then go back to GW2 for an hour and so on.
So, I often play solo as it gives me a “shackles-free” feeling while playing.

On the other hand, the game per se, I see absolutely nothing that would drive players towards antisocial behavior, on the contrary. The argument of not having to group to do things together actually works as a counter-argument, as people can go with the flow in GW2 and form spontaneous parties. For example, I was hearting and eventing today with 5-6 other players for an hour or so. Now, there wasn’t much verbal communication, that’s true, but there was communication and I could feel it. I am sure all the players felt like part of the group after twenty minutes, for example. And there was SOME verbal communication, not much, but still significantly more than in MMO’s where you have strict partying and tagged mobs. People simply started to comment on things like they would in, say, waiting room. Some exchange was going on, on various levels.

So, in a nutshell, I myself have a bit odd playing regime, so more often than not you could see me being silent and soloing through content. But if we talk about the game as a field that encourages antisocial behavior, I do not agree.

That said, I must also add that I haven’t developed a thick skin on teh intrawebz, although I have been playing multiplayer games for almost twenty years and a number of MMORPGs. I guess that my “oldschoolness” in human interaction prevented me from getting into the “online players are pixels” mode, so I perceive every interaction as a real one. More often than not, other side doesn’t do that.

I think the best solution would be the system similar to WoT’s, it’s the best one I have encountered so far.

“The beauty imo is, if kitten unbalanced, which it is at the moment, its not a subscription based game. I take a break, patch comes out, i dont need to resubscribe, i hop in and play away and hopefully things are a lot better, if they arent i rinse and repeat.”

The thing is, you will do that, but majority of players will simply leave and they won’t come back. And those players are important, to you as well, as this is a MMORPG. That’s the whole point.

You mentioned putting eggs in one basket. That’s exactly why people will leave, because they have plenty of eggs and plenty of baskets. GW1 players, Anet supporters or dedicated players, forum users etc. are all a minority. They will wait, they will report bugs, post topics, and they will, if they leave, come back if things get better. But majority of players simply won’t do that. I mean, you can say “how do you know” or “give me some chart on that” and to that I won’t have an answer, but I think it’s pretty common and logical thing to assume.

And this doesn’t have much to do with subscription really, as people will resubscribe if motivated and vice versa, they won’t start a game that has no subscription after a month or so, if they are not motivated. And majority won’t be motivated, because they would simply not care about whether things got better or not, being occupied with new eggs and baskets.

I found WoW PvP to be surprisingly good. Although I had some kind of emo-disgust towards the game, I eventually bought it and got really, really surprised by its PvP. Essentially because I find it’s mixture of chess-like philosophy, countering and active gameplay very successful. Add to that 50+ abilities which are all valuable and purposeful, have their usage in various situations and have a bit of synergy and you have hit the jackpot.
Also there are some very good, carefully designed, mainly open maps, which are an important part of the whole system, as they allow for a small scale skirmishes on an open field. Also, the player rarely gets to battle the dreaded MMORPG camera indoors.

If we are talking about pure vs multiplayer, then it’s q3 for me, followed by q1.

As for the GW2, I find it’s main PvP concept appealing, but from another perspective. It’s a lot more quakeish and the mechanics are built around that fact. Which is good and refreshing. The thing is, everything else about PvP is flawed. In my opinion, badly. I just hope that this game survives long enough to reach it’s full PvP potential, but I am not so sure about that. These are consumerist and turbulent times for video games, majority of people tend to leave games VERY quickly if they are not satisfied. And when that particular game is a MMO, we can’t say “let them go”, like we can if it was a single player game.

I guess you didn’t see his point.

Considering those things you mentioned, you make valid points and it’s things like those that make the PvP look like alpha stage of some B game to me. I have just realized that everything I post about PvP comes to me saying that lol.
But, that really sums it up for me. I have a constant impression of a very, very sloppy job when it comes to PvP. So sloppy that I don’t know how much things like patching and not complete overhaul can help it…
I mean, should they balance around 1v1, 5v5, 8v8? Why are solo and premade not separated? Should they balance around conquest mode or around simplified “vs” situations? Should new maps have determined number of players? How would current maps fare in that case? Will the in battle glory gain system be overhauled to actually promote desired gameplay and reflect state of things in battle?

I am under the impression that devs just jumped into this without planning, which is, of course ridiculous, but I don’t have other explanation…

Mammoth.1975:

Wow there are a lot of players on this forum who don’t have teams. I wonder what would happen if they started talking to each other.

So, your solution is for everybody to have teams?

And what is wrong with that? I mean, there will ALWAYS be easier classes, harder classes, classes with high skill floor, classes with low skill floor, same goes for skill ceiling, classes that are newbie friendly, classes that are not newbie friendly, classes that are gods in lower skill levels, but get countered in “ultimate” skill level (WoW hunter?) etc etc etc.

You can’t balance the game to suit everyone equally, you have to choose what principle you want to follow. Personally, I am for the “balanced at top end gameplay” principle, as it is most fair and logical and is the only principle that relies on actual balancing.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I am aware that some classes need to be tweaked (some quite a lot), but not because they are easier to get into or friendlier toward facerolling or similar…

Yes, but that’s the point. Many will leave, maybe not you or me, but many will. And massiveness is one of the key elements for a MMORPG. The game should have been released in 2013. then, so the full release would be actually full release.

Now, I understand it’s the publisher’s fault and not the devs, but I am just pointing out the importance of having bunch of polished and great things NAO

Grumwulf:

That’s why I mentioned the “same combat mechanics as land combat” as maybe something that makes underwater combat more appealing. You had whole area in WoW submerged and people loved it. My guess it’s because characters retained the skills and weapons from the land combat.

Yes, but, IMHO, rank system in GW2 is flawed (as it’s based on grind, rather than non-quantity based formula) and spvp rewards are encouraging specific style of play which can be damaging to the actual player strategy and tactics. I think that a lot more complex system of awarding points should be in place (similar to WoT or WoW).

I am one of those that just don’t like underwater combat in this game. Nor from aspect of hard/easy, it’s just that I really don’t like it for some reason. When I see an underwater heart quest, I die a little bit inside:)

Actually, I am supporter of the underwater combat being the same as land combat (as in same weapons/skills). While I know that’s not very logical and it brings no variety to the table, I simply like it that way.

But, if I make an effort and think objectively and try to keep personal preferences out of analysis, I would say the underwater combat is GW2 is, I don’t know, bland and sub-attractive. The weapons should be “more awesome” in order to compensate loss of “conventional land control” when character enters water. Character’s movement becomes sluggish, but mobs retain their agility and speed.

Well, it’s description says it does…

I am thinking of all the new people, your friend is just an examplary term for “new people”

Yes, but maybe there’s a difference between a “half hour casual experience” and “five hours casual experience”. I mean, even if we had brackets, I think your friend would get roflstomped by “five hourers”, who would still be in the “beginner” bracket.
Unless we were to have like 20 brackets, which I think would cause problems with queues.
I am not sure of this, but that’s what I think. You have to “bite the bullet” and to expect nasty experience for first single digit number of hours or so, which should flower into smooth sense of control afterwards:)

Also, I haven’t done much playing, but does the “play now” option work and is it any good? I mean, in terms of matching players of similar skill?

“But that doesn’t mean I’m not rather disapointed in the game, and the company, by now. Not because of any other game, just because of the promises that were made, and how I feel they aren’t fullfilled.”

This is my biggest grudge with the game. I sometimes find it difficult to look at it with “blank mind”, as I always remember why I have bought it – for the things developers announced.
Common argument against that is “you shouldn’t get overhyped”. But it really isn’t that. Overhyped means if, for example, devs announced there would be lots of dynamic events, I would perceive that as “omg there will be million events”, which is unrealistic assumption of someone who got carried away.
I havent done that. Instead, I carefully listened to developers’ promises, trying not to assume much. And yet, I got disappointed (not horribly, but still, disappointed) as you did too. Now, I wouldn’t say the devs where blatantly lying (maybe there is some ground for that, but ok), but there were some blatant misleading. Which I find not cool, as that could only be purposeful act, which at the same time allows devs to wash their hands and say “you misunderstood” and to actually be right.

For example, dynamic events. I was a bit suspicious when they were announced and presented and marketed as I thought along the lines of “that’s nearly impossible to do with current coding, state of games and computers and it demands an enormous amount of investment from the devs”. But then, I was absolutely convinced they will pull it off, because of the way they described them. Instead we got small-scale, simple chain scripts which are repeating in the exact same way in the exact same spots and in no way affect the world in a sense of actual affecting. And no, there is nothing I can say to the devs as dynamic events in gw2 are in no way clashing with what the devs were saying. But they are disappointing in their quality, when we look how they were marketed.
And while I can’t point the finger toward the devs (as technically, the marketed feature is indeed in the release), I can say that’s not cool, at least.
I feel like some kid who bought the model of a tank which was in a big box with beautiful photos and illustrations of a toy inside. And when the kid opened the box, there was another box, five times smaller than the packaging box, and in it was a tiny tank, molded from single piece of plastic, with flaws everywhere and with non-rotating turret and it was wrong color:)

So, that’s debatable. But spvp, that’s another thing, in my book. It’s flawed, it’s neglected in every way, it’s poor in terms of quality AND quantity, it’s simply something that belongs in an alpha release of a B grade game.

Of course, there are those who disagree and yes, as Lebowski says, this really is only my opinion, but I thought I could jump in and share my 2c.

Hunterdan.4921:

Noxu.7203:

Welcome to software development. Chris, I’ll let you in on a little secret: No matter how much time anyone in software development has to make something, things will always go awry and there will be bugs, and glitches. Preventing all this from happening is near impossible.

What you must have is patience. That’s the key to it all.

Software development is fickle and bugs happen no matter what. This isn’t new to anyone in the MMO business.

^ Right there.

Everyone knows this is true. But they still talk like someone deliberately went, “Aw heck, we could test this a bit more…but lets go out for mammosa’s instead.”

You are completely disregarding the aspect of degree of something. It’s not about there are bugs/there aren’t any bugs.

Roqoco:
On the other hand, if the forums are flooded with similar posts (no matter if they are constructive or not), that is a statement in it’s own. Yes, it would be great if forums are not taken over with threads about bots – the perfect solution is not to have bots:)

I mean, forums get flooded ONLY when something is critical and important, you won’t see two threads about “why the sword of x is blue, it needs to be green”, let alone ten.

Black Regent:
Have you tried to enter BG’s? To be honest, WoW has more problems with bots than GW2, which doesn’t justify anything of course, but thought I should mention it. I mean, that’s a no brainer in my book, I am actually surprised you put WoW after GW2 in botting.

Eon:
Hm, I have addressed both of those points in my post. I have also brought out some additional aspects, which it seems remained neglected by you:)

“If you were to play starcraft, would you immediately jump into a competitive match and get frustrated that you didn’t understand how to play?”
This has been mentioned a couple of times in this topic. Go and install Starcraft and play a multiplayer match, you will get bad player to play with, as Starcraft have ladder system. You’ll get DESTROYED. Your friend would quit Starcraft even before the half hour mark.

“Number one priority is accessible and sustainable gameplay, which means all manner of different things to kill. This is a gameplay decision, and not a lore one. The game telling you you’re a hero is not to strengthen the sense of immersion. It’s to make you, the player, feel good and powerful about playing the game and killing things, so that you continue to do so.”

You have just defined immersion with your last sentence:)
I mean, you feel good because you accomplished something which really isn’t an accomplishment if it’s not perceived from an immersion aspect. Your avatar “fought” zeros and ones and you feel good, although there is no non-immersion element which changed in your life.
Immersion is not when you think you’re the savior of Tyria, that’s medical condition:)
We could talk about degrees of immersion, but not whether immersion exists or not in your example.
I agree on the first part, though.

“Don’t get me wrong, the visual design of GW2 is fantastic, and if you go back and play GW1, even in 2012, it’s still a very good looking game not on the technicals of the graphics, but the strength of the visual design. Jeremy Soule has also been one of my favorite VGM composers since I was enthralled by the Secret of Evermore soundtrack as a kid.
And even if the intent on the part of the devs is to create art (something I don’t doubt on an individual basis), the intent of their NCsoft overlords is to make a buck and nothing more. Like I just got done saying, this means any artistic merit is heavily compromised. Maybe by deadlines on storylines and writing. Maybe by budget cuts to voice recording. Maybe by the expectation that it is unimportant to the gameplay itself, and that the audience ultimately doesn’t care about the lore. But artistic merit is compromised to the point of insignificance, and this will not ever change.”

And yet, art is one of the major selling points in those AAA games you talk about. We could take the most dreadful and idiotic oversimplified money-grabbing AAA title and we’ll see that the art aspect is in fact covered in good quality in various areas – modeling, concepts, illustration, cutscene directing, voice acting, cutscene photography, architecture etc.
The game itself may be only an unfortunate compilation of those and not a state of art by itself, but art is heavily present in and around the game.

“The other stuff you say, I’ll grant you it’s arrogant of me to pass a judgment on the discussion, but I’ll go on record as stating that it is no more arrogant than this discussion occuring to begin with, as if the product somehow has less value because it does not have artistic merit. Virtually none of the media we consume has any, because it’s hard to have artistic merit in a product that someone intends to make a profit on. Any kind of meaningful expression or statement is heavily compromised when there’s an intent to make money off of it.”
I strongly disagree. A good artist will make a good piece of art even with sole purpose to make money. Now, I don’t want to delve into the definition of art as that would be neverending and tedious discussion, but instead will remind you of Michelangelo’s money hoarding tendencies and the fact he was always in a mercenary mode.
Also, quality art is a good thing in every aspect and could only boost that product you talk about. That’s why Kekai worked on GW2 and I didn’t, even though I assume I am much more cost friendly:D But I am also considerably worse an artist, which is important, as we can see in various examples.

On the other hand, I found cliches in GW2 – annoying. We are Norn, we honor ancestors and like to drink and fight and we are large and loud and… – oh come on, stop spilling that viking dwarf valhalla animistic crap all the time….
Here, I must remind you that WoW has even more blatant cliches at every step, but somehow I found those enjoyable. Even if they were wrapped in silly goofy graphics with little fat people running around.

As for the “trance immersion” aspect of GW2 (which boils down to PvP really), I find it also lacking. But that’s no mystery in terms of why it is lacking, some serious work needs to be done in that area…

Now, after this little novel of mine, it’s time for a conclusion. Bottom line is – all those games mentioned (portal, tf2, torment) excel in areas that generate immersion, in one way or another. So, even if you stumble upon some strange thing or a bug or inconsistency, or cliche, you are more than willing (sometimes you even don’t notice it) to quickly shrug it off, so you could continue to reward yourself with that awesome game. Sometimes exactly the most cliched part gets you the most, like in Terminator 2. Because, if immersion is generated, cliches are actually more powerful than original stuff. IF immersion is generated. When it isn’t cliches are probably the worst thing that could happen.

I must also add, that I think GW2 has VERY little inconsistencies, when compared to other games. But, that’s exactly why this topic is important. The mere fact that the game with little number of inconsistencies bothers someone for that very reason, speaks for itself. Because, if delivery was spot on, you wouldn’t contemplate why some skritts are bad and some are neutral, but you would be like “omg nasty skritts, taste my SWORD, I don’t CARE what’s going on, you are the enemyyyy” instead:)

So I don’t think it’s important (or maybe even possible?) to know which element does what. For example, Portal is a great game – why? – because it’s a great game:) And I know that if Portal had five times more inconsistencies than GW2, that fact wouldn’t be changed. It would still be a great game (with a lot of inconsistencies:) ).

Personally, I blame this on publisher. I am sure A LOT of things were rushed and I mean, seriously rushed. I mean, potential is there, oh, it’s there alright. Great graphics, great races and classes, beautiful setting, responsive controls, perfect input lag, various builds, interesting weapon skill system, wvwvw, innovative aggro system and I’ll stop here just for the reason this post is long enough:)

Focksbot.6798:

text

Thanks for the kind words:)

You are right about the games you mentioned and their success. But I would attribute it more to the fact that they filled somewhat neglected niches – of course, in addition to their great gameplay. Speaking of gameplay, I think that’s the key, actually. If the game is undeniably good, large percent of job is already done. Now, that may sound silly, as in “if the game is good, than it’s good”

And, silly as it sounds, that’s what I am saying:)
What do I mean by that exactly?

I am 30 years old. So, I am young, but not teenager or adolescent anymore. Also, I like to read, mostly “heavy” classikittenerature, I am a painter and graphic artist by profession and I like to write occasionally, I also play guitar and sing – now, this is no “look at me” post, I am certain that I lack in numerous areas for every one that I am good at:)

Bottom line, I am a grownup, who has interest in key areas of game design. That said, I should be extremely sensitive to, say, weak plotlines or dialogues, bad artwork, music and such. Instead, I have realized I am actually most sensitive to actual distilled gameplay and interface. Of course, these vary greatly of a game’s genre, so I will split the immersion into “spirit imersion” and “trance immersion”, for the sake of discussion:)

Trance immersion – this goes for dynamic arcade games that demand direct control and muscle memory, quickness etc. Think quake, street fighter 2, super meat boy and such. If the core gameplay is good, than 99% of job is done. I mean, you don’t care if quake is unrealistic, naive and cliched, it provides phenomenal gameplay. And you find yourself immersed, you start to dodge rockets by ducking in your chair (true story) in addition to strafing in game:) You stop being in “oh, this level is hard” mode and step into “omg, three knights are chasing me, kittenhit kitten”. So, the core gameplay quality resulted in you being immersed as hell:)

Spirit immersion – reserved for games where gameplay is static or turn based, more chess like, where you think a lot, plan ahead and execution is something which your grandma could do the same as you if you tell her what to press. As these games clearly lack in a core dynamic gameplay department, they have to excel in other areas, such as plot, balance, graphics, “carrots”, setting, quantity of options, pleasant interface, generating addiction etc. For example, Civilization series.

And, we have hybrid games, that combine both factors. For example – GW2.

Two of the best “hybrid” MMORPG’s I have played are GW2 and WoW. With WoW having a clear edge to me at the moment. Now, I am not trying to provoke, I am talking about my subjective experience, so you might as well think “game x” and “game y”. I am presenting this comparative experience, as I want to (on my example, which doesn’t have to be objective or true for anybody else – but it might give insight to the concept) analyze what makes a “hybrid gameplay” game a good and immersive game to somebody.

I ventured into WoW pretty late, about two years ago. Reason for such late envolvement was, interestingly, that I wouldn’t want to have anything with that naive, ugly looking, cliched, populistic piece of crap:) So I bought it eventually, just to play some PvP with friends – basically, I wanted to play it exclusively as a “trance immersion” game. But, the unthinkable happened – I got “spirit-immersed” instead:)
Somehow, they have pulled it off. I mean, it’s still naive, ugly looking, cliched, populistic, but somehow the end result is not crap.

Now, to GW2 and later, I will wrap this up with a conclusion. I got into GW2 not overly hyped, I was indifferent, but I wanted to see the innovations and interesting concepts (dynamic events, quake-ish non-gear based PvP) etc. And while GW2’s delivery is more serious by looks, it failed to trigger the immersion in me. Both of them, as a matter of fact. Now, it’s not that I am not enjoying the game. But, “it” just isn’t happening.

It’s strange, really. For example, we have archetypal cliches in WoW, which are kitten to the point of absurdity. Also, I had aversion for the style of artwork and all the pop references etc. But somehow, I got immersed, and I got immersed quickly. I cared, I WANTED for the game to be cliched, because, when you are immersed, cliches are actually more epic than not (but it’s hard to get immersed with cliches). You know, similar to, I don’t know, Terminator 2, when Arnie says “there’s one more chip”. You KNOW all the time it has to happen, you KNOW it’s a million year old cliche, you KNOW he is a machine, you KNOW it’s overly pathetic. And still, you are on the verge of crying every time you see it. Delivery.

Eon:
And how would you solve that? I mean, the more the performance depends on player skill and not avatar skill, the more the controls are direct, the gap is wider. Try to get ONE frag in quake if you are starting and got in the map with some, even sub-decent players. And you will fail. Simply, quake is 100% player dependent.

GW2 is less player dependent, as you have some non-quakeish math going on, but in essence, it’s pretty quakish, to be honest.

That said, the game is young. There are A LOT of players that are starting now and I am sure your friend would meet them on a regular basis in PvP. He would have to actually play PvP for a while, though. You mentioned half an hour, I mean, that’s really little, even for the most newbie friendly games out there. I mean, after half an hour, I am still thinking I am pressing the heal skill, while I am in fact pressing the AoE damage skill, and while it’s on cooldown:) You simply know nothing and that’s normal.

I mean really, half an hour…

besbin.6302:

I play an elementalist and purposefully levelled to 80 first before trying pvp as I knew the understanding and fluid use of the attunement class mechanic would be essential for any chance of success in pvp.

This also. All other MMORPG’s simply don’t give you top level character to play with in PvP. You go through a process of knowing the class and that process takes days and weeks and months even.
WoW has literally three or four times more abilities than GW2 available at the same time and hotkeyed allover the keyboard. But, an average player has absolutely no problems with managing and knowing them by heart what they do and where they are and has muscle memory to boot. Because you are going through the process of learning and adapting with that character over the course of many hours and levels and situations.
Exactly the same happens in GW2, if you are not some god given PvP prodigy, why throw yourself in the fray right away?

I know what I’m saying because I am that average player. And, I have entered GW2 PvP without going through the leveling process and got stomped, of course. But, in my third match, I kinda started to notice if I am taking damage or not lol (yes, I didn’t perceive ANYTHING, so to speak). In my 4th match, I killed a guy. It was in a zerg fight, but still, I managed to target him, and to release some offensive abilities:) which is a big progress for me at that time.
Lastly, in my sixth match or so, I have won my first full HP 1v1 encounter. It was against a very bad player apparently, but he wasn’t a bot or anything like that, he was just bad, spamming buttons and not doing any synergy with his abilities. And he was warrior. And I was ranger.
So, basically, you just need to actually play the game and gratification, while delayed, is not THAT delayed, but more like several hours away. That is really, REALLY, nothing.

If that is too much time for somebody, maybe he shouldn’t play the game – I don’t mean this in any derogatory way, I mean any game. EVERY game is pain in the start. Every single one. Even if the pain is as light as “now, what key should I press to jump, aaaah kitten, I must check the options”.

Tai Kratos.3247:

From a design aspect, I can appreciate that. The reason that I have such a high standard despite the fact that this is an MMO is the fact that GW1 managed to have this sort of consistency. And I was an avid GW1 fan, so I expected the same from GW2. Now I realize that GW1 was an entirely different beast due to the fact that it was entirely instanced and GW2 is persistent, but I still feel that it could have been approached better. It wouldn’t take much effort to mark separate clans for the “good” and “bad” Skritt. That’s the kind of gimmick they used in GW1 for things such as the previously mentioned Tengu clans.

Well, part of that is certainly in the eye of the beholder. For example, I was having huge problems with playing NBA Live games some 10-15 years ago, because of too large scripts for my taste. I wanted a game of physics where your shot would bounce of the rim or enter the basket based on some, at least rudimentary, Newton physics. That was not the case in those games and scripts were blatantly obvious. It bothered the hell out of me, as I would rather play a sports game of green cubes vs red cubes on an awful court, if the simulation part was done decently. Majority of other people had no idea what I was talking about and ended arguments with “but…but… you have licenced Garnett!” or similar. So, the developer clearly focused on one aspect, deliberately completely disregarding some other aspects – core aspects even.

Why am I saying this? Because you mentioned “it wouldn’t take much effort”. Up to NBA Live 2000, there was exactly ONE type of basket – nothing but net. Now, I am not talking about physics here, I am talking about visual representation. You could have the same simple script (basket/no basket), yet more animations, so it would seem like some kind of uncertain outcome. For example, you could have two baskets and two bounces which would be generated randomly. I believe that is something like a day’s work – exaggerated claim, but you get the point. And yet, it was not implemented so the developers could have more time to polish “licenced Garnetts”

And I really think it all comes to that – developer’s focus. GW2 is much bigger than GW1 in every aspect – from the niche it targets to the production value and media coverage.
And we have time as resource. So, if we have one animation for ball going through the hoop, it would take one day to make another. BUT that one day could be spent making additional eyelash on “licenced Garnett”. So, good bye ball animation. Our focus is elsewhere.
Same goes for GW2. If we have inconsistency with case “Skritt”, we could invest three days to separate Skritt tribes. But, we could make two weapon skins and one more heart quest in those three days. Which one do we choose? The latter, of course, which is logical if we go back to the “catering to specimen X in MMORPG”.

While we’re at it, I must say I find said “developer focus” a bit strange in GW2. I sometimes completely fail to define it or pinpoint it. It’s basically a PVP oriented game, with attention to quake-like principle of equality and dynamic fight. But we have four maps, one game mode, lack of GUI/screens/infos/scoreboards, zerg-encouraging reward system and severe balance issues (this is a relative category, but I am taking into account beta testing and game being fully released etc).

Now, I am not trying to seamlessly convert the topic into my PvP rant:) I want to say that I am with you in a sense that some things and devs’ decisions confuse me, all things taken into consideration.

“I’m a bit skeptical about the ‘permanent solution’ because not even WoW after 7-8 years has dealt with the botting / account security issues completely. It has made a lot of progress but no way is it close to being free from bots / account security issues.
Then again, it still has long maintenance and server queues which GW2 rarely has…”

Well, one thing that goes in favor of GW2 is the lack of montly subscription. WoW has EPIC number of bots, but those bots must pay the subscription to even step into the game. So, a permanent solution would actually mean money loss for Blizzard – IF there are more bots than players leaving due to excessive botting happening in the game, which I believe is the case, actually.

Tai Kratos.3247:

But again, you miss the point. While you may see games as just entertainment, I am one of those people who sees the potential in the video game medium for artistic merit. To that end, I will critique a video game as I would any other form of art, such as literature, art, or music. This isn’t about the entertainment value of the game – I find it very entertaining regardless of my issues with it – but if the story is weak and the lore is weak, I think it is due some criticism.

You have posted while I was writing my wall of text:)
But essentially, I hope I have addressed exactly this aspect. And in that aspect, it is necessary to always be aware of the fact that MMORPG is something ENTIRELY different from a single player game, for the various reasons I have tried to point out. You guys mentioned Torment and that’s exactly what I’m talking about. In terms of consistency, flow, bugs, we could say something as – MMORPG<single player game<a movie<a book.

Now, this is all, of course, my 2c, but generally, those things mentioned in the OP are consciously neglected errors, or maybe even enforced, for the sake of “greater good and appeal”. Which, of course, doesn’t take away from validity of your observations, but that’s another point.

For example, the playing field of a MMORPG is relatively small – for what it represents. We have whole continents which are of a size of a modern city and not nearly as detailed. So, when presented with a task of conceptualizing a MMORPG landscape, the artist needs to take this into consideration and make illogical (note that I didn’t say “fantasy” or “imaginative” but simply – illogical – even in terms of a given fantasy setting) landscapes. So, you will often have to design two or three climates that flow into each other in a VERY small area – I am talking about hundreds of meters here. You will have a mountain that’s 100ft tall, covered with eternal snow, next to a grassy field with a spring which is becoming a swamp 200ft to the right. You will have hungry yetis living on a mountain and fat cow-like creatures munching on grass 15ft further. And you would get a quest like “the yetis are dying due to the starvation” or something. So, if you don’t take these things for granted, as a “meme” of MMORPG’s, you will react with “omg stupid yetis, just kittening reach out with your hand and grab dozens of cows”
And you would be absolutely right – but it’s calculated priority flaw, so to speak.

Also, considering the non-aggressive and non threatening units being killed, for the sake of killing – same thing, really. We have two major reasons for that. First one would be enforced diversity and quantity I have talked about (specimen X must be given a chance – and not just a chance as in possibility, but it must be incorporated in a quest – to kill Y number of creatures in Z amount of time). Second one is based on the fact that those quests are commonly associated with starting areas, so we are not just catering to the specimen X, we are catering to the specimen X who has entered the game two minutes ago and is having problems with controls, class, abilities and bunch of other stuff. So we put him in a non-hostile environment, where he performs hostile acts, without having to worry about those little goblin villagers swarming on him, or even one goblin villager attacking him, for that matter. So he goes on a “quest of saving the nearby human village from a goblin pest!” which consists of slaughtering the village of neutral-tagged, flower-sniffing goblins. Why? Because.
Because in the next quest, our specimen X must fight those pesky fireflies so farmer John would make firefly stew. Because fireflies provide different encounter than goblins and different quest-story and reasons. So, there are like twenty species of creatures running around in a circle of 300ft, providing hacking fun for our specimen X and we have a “quest basis” for all of those killings. And of course, that quest basis would be as consistent as bass playing of a manically depressed squirrel on morphine and XTC at the same time:)

Maybe my explanation is somewhat confusing at times, or exaggerated, but I really tried to explain to the best of my abilities. No doubt it would be far better if we were sitting in a pub, but still, I hope it’s constructive for the topic.

While your post, Corian, might be interpreted as a simplified view of things by some, it actually sums things pretty accurate. You just haven’t elaborated, so I will do some of that:)

MMORPG’s are vastly different from RPG’s in general. There are a couple of key differencies you will find in almost every example for comparison. So, it’s often not fair to compare MMO’s to SPRPG’s in terms of story coverage, world consistency, player-NPC interaction, story arch, quality of scripted events etc. I really don’t think this needs to be elaborated to death and that is pretty self explanatory.

That said, MMORPG’s need to supply massiveness, quantity and diversity and also to cater not to the niche audience, but to the “whole world”. So, they have to be “dumbed down” to the abilities of a “potentially least competent customer”. When I say “competent”, I mean in some or all aspects of competency. Of course, not all content would be dumbed down, but key content elements must be accessible to all. Competitive PVP/PVE, advanced lore etc. are potential bonuses, reachable by players, but that’s it. But, story arch, quests (difficulty AND complexity, both theoretical and practical), character relations, deepness of activities/communication etc. will cater to the “least competent subject”
A smart/interested/thorough/skilled player CAN play the simplified game, while vice versa is impossible. So, you can’t afford to make the game cater that quality player, nor could you afford to make the game take middle ground. It has to go “all the way down”.

So, what do we have so far? The need for sheer quantity and diversity, made so it would cater the “specimen X” That means thousands of quests, hundreds of locations, hundreds of creatures, hundreds of landscapes.
Thus, the said player must be served these things:
-massivenes
-quantity
-diversity
-simplicity
-dumbed down epicness (I kill dragon, I famous)
-short dialogues
-KILLING, KILLING, KILLING
-dozens of stuff really

So, you have a quest/event/whatever where you need to kill some evil orcs, for example, then some neutral fireflies, then sick cows, then wild wolves, then some birds, then some hostile goblins, then some crabs, then…. you get the picture:) Basically, from the MMORPG’s point, if you “challenge inconsistency and stuff”, you are overanalyzing – regardless of whether you are correct or not – just like in the Mario example.

Being in the game industry as an illustrator, I have some insight as to how and why these things are done the way they are done. There are priorities and those priorities may have the game being inconsistent, illogical etc.

-yes, I was thinking more about the general atmosphere among players, not just the OP’s post. I was unclear, that’s true:)

-I disagree on map design, they feel cluttered to me. In a TPS game, as opposed to a FPS one, you shouldn’t have relatively small rooms, a lot of corners and that kind of stuff. The camera dictates a lot in architecture of maps in a TPS game and with a good reason. Okay, maybe it’s a matter of taste, time should tell. But I absolutely think you’re wrong about the reward system. Or maybe you haven’t caught the point of view I was talking about. I am not talking about the point system or crafting gear. I was talking more about the reward system in match practice, so to speak. Point distribution is done poorly and that’s a fact. A fact that encourages bad play. Now, I am not talking about you or me and that we would adapt our playstyles to the roam-zerg awarding system. But 99% players will. That’s why system needs to be redesigned. I also disagree about the GUI, it feels like an alpha release to me – no stats except for what skills killed you, no necessary party info, no aftermath with a bit of depth… Now, of course, this is all an IMHO point of view, but I don’t think I am the only one. And I am not one of those that want gear advantage or similar stuff.

-inovations are cool, but if they are not supported by “meat”, they don’t worth much. PUG farming is there, I mean the whole SPVP is a PUG farm more or less. It’s not that much noticeable as there are still a lot of new players in the game. People farm points, gear treadmill is not the only thing that will yield PUG farming.

-the classes are balanced pretty fine in my opinion. I can’t talk about the graphics too much as I have jurassic PC:)

-It’s not just the GUI, I think that the problems I have mentioned are key ones, the meat and teeth of pvp. You disagree on some points and that’s fine. But I think those problems are indeed problems and I think that, sadly, they will affect the game population A LOT.
You talk mainly about you liking the pvp, but I am trying to say that it’s not about you or me. This is a MMO and, as one, is highly population-dependent. If it was single player game, it would be perfectly logical to assume the position where you are enjoying the game and the rest is not that important.
That said, personally, I can stand those problems. But objectively and from the aspect of a general player base, I consider them a potentially mortal wound. That’s mainly my point, my personal sentiments are just something that can tag along, but doesn’t make any difference. If you have the most beautiful tabletop tennis table, but no friends, what are you going to do?

I know some things are a matter of taste or opinion, but I strongly believe that not all of them are. I mean, objectively, four maps and one game mode in the full release of a game of this caliber, that’s almost incomprehensible to me. And it’s a game focused on that aspect of gameplay, those things should shine and be overwhelmingly brilliant in both quantity and quality, not just on the level “well, it’s cool” or “I am having a good time”.

Again, those are my 2c, but I am really trying to be objective and in no way am I bashing the game or emo raging, far from that.

Oh, come on, that communism story is like two pages old:) No, seriously, the thread hasn’t been perfect, but it’s among better threads in the forums, from various aspects.

As for rehashing the same opposed aspects, that’s not true, we are talking about improvements in a very gw2-ish way, so to speak, for at least last several posts. Which you can see for yourself if you read the posts. The “evil discussing” is mostly done on those other couple of threads.

My thoughts exactly. People actually discuss things and communicate in this thread, which we know is ironically a rare thing in any forum.
I don’t have that nauseous “I am writing a post, tomorrow when I open the topic, I will see bunch of flaming answers” feeling while writing in this thread, which is a good thing. I don’t find it hard to write wall of texts and read other users’ posts, no matter if they agree with me or not.

So, yea, why?

Yasha.5963:

Nope, I think the spvp in this game is the best in any mmo I’ve played. I love that I can just jump in with a max level character and that every player is on an even footing. I cannot think of one reason why all the usual gear-grind/leveling based mmo spvp is better than what we have in GW2.

I think you are missing the point.
That is not the issue that bothers people. Nobody is complaining about the mechanical structure of fundamental PvP principe in GW2. In fact, people generally like it. Personally, I love it, I love the build principle and the skill usage.

The thing is, you get to experience it in one game mode on two and a half badly designed maps in matches governed by flawed reward system, while having attrocious GUI and info/stats. In a full release AAA game, focused on PvP.

Then, we could have items that not change the in-game mechanics, but benefit players indirectly. Those are kind of things that generate profit, for example, which benefits the player, but doesn’t put him mechanically (for instance in PvP or PvE) above other.

These could be:

-houses that you buy could be upgraded with rooms, which could be rented to some imagined NPC’s. The more upgraded the house, the more expensive the rent. The profit shouldn’t be too high, but at the same time it would have to pay off for the owner.

-some feat which you can accomplish, which in turn lowers the prices of NPC things. For example, I am really just making quick imaginary examples, the title “benefactor” which is gained by “giving x money to the Divinity’s Reach orphanage” allows the player to have the 30% discount on using waypoints.

etc etc etc

Like I said, I am not very good at brainstorming, but I think the idea is clear. These things need to be exceptional in quality and in quantity, so the players could chose their personal path or branch of interest and everyone could pursue what he likes and it would take years of hc playing for a player to accomplish all of the things.

So, if a hc player invests effort, he could, in a year for example, run around with character “John Doe the benefactor”, who has his name in an in-game plaque of heroes which stands in Divinity Reach square. John Doe has the sword called “blackie”, which is matte black with black flames. He has a house in Hoelbrak, which he rents and a house in Divinity’s Reach, where he lives. He has great reputation among Asura and humans, which allows him to trade more favorably with asurian and human NPC merchant. His voice is deep and he rarely screams and shouts in battle, taunting opponents with snidy remarks instead. He also has the title “gambler” and access to the secret gambling society, where he can gamble with other members or NPC’s. On january 14. 2013. he participated in first downing of the boss X, which yielded him boss X-related skins and a very prestigious rare title “slayer of X”, which is reserved only for the first group that downed the boss.

etc etc etc

Of course, half of these things are poorly implemented in my examples, but you get the idea.

Tosha Daydreamer.9251:

Doolio.1865:

It doesn’t have to be gear, it doesn’t have to be leveling, but it HAS to be something that affect your CHARACTER in a meaningful way, not just the player.

Any ideas?

Well, there is always vanity stuff, as something that comes to mind instantly. It’s a fail-safe principle which doesn’t affect the game mechanics in any way, thus allowing the player to remain character-competent even if he doesn’t want to chase the vanity carrot.

Some things have already been mentioned. I could add a popular gasp:) WoW concept of hard to get titles, which are displayable next to the character’s name. Personally I think this is a great concept, it’s grindy, it’s carroty and it’s vane:) It’s also interesting and fun – given that there would be many titles with various difficulty and time investment. There would be grind based titles or skill based titles or time invested based titles etc.
I think the concept is archetypal in it’s appeal, because in the gear driven WoW, people still invest time and resources to get some of the more “nolifing” titles.
I am still new to GW2, so I don’t know if there’s something similar, I have seen titles in achievements tab, but I guess they are just a statistical checkpoints more or less.
This concept would give them more of a “fleshy” feeling, IMHO.

I am not very good in “one brain brainstorming”, I often block when I need to think of bunch of concepts at once, but generally, the established vanity concept is, in fact, a way to go. But, i will need to elaborate on this, as there are factors which make or brake the concept.
For instance, like I said earlier, if there’s no gear treadmill, that’s one MMORPG element lacking. I have also said that it’s not a bad thing per se (just different), but it’s still an element lacking. So, it has to be replaced or compensated with remaining elements. That means that those remaining elements need to excel in order to cover the absence of that particular element. They have to excel in quality, as well as in quantity – as this is a MMORPG, we need quantity.

That said, let’s go back to the vanity carrot. Since it doesn’t change the game mechanics, there are virtually no limits to what can be implemented and in what quantity and form. There is practically no danger of kittening things up, as the gameplay remains the same, no matter what.
So, if vanity kind of character progression is the way to go, it has to be EXTREMELY EPIC and numerous.

For instance:

-already mentioned titles

-LOTS of vanity skins

-specific vanity items (sword of John Doe – an extremely rare rng sword). As an addition to more generally defined weapons, as “sword of frost” would be.

-vanity item creator – an insane-grind skin customizer. For example, if you were to create a sword for you, you could design/paint/choose the hilt and the blade separately, color it, add the type and color of particle effect and glow (fire, acid etc) and all that kind of stuff, and you can name it. That would make your weapon truly unique. Of course, it would need to be extremely grindy, so it would reward only the most dedicated players.

-unlockable content – again, without tampering with mechanics. These could be gameplay-content related things (areas, elite dungeons etc) or this too could be vanity-restricted thing. For example, you could unlock additional strange or epic or funny voice sets for your character.

-If character did a remarkable act (and I mean remarkable, not downing all bosses or exploring the world – it could also be something that’s been done for the first time in the game), server could announce or display it for a week or month, on a daily basis. For example, “on the day xy John Doe has slain the marshmellow dragon” or “on the day xy John Doe has donated a thousand gold to the charity, let’s remember him for centuries to come”. For extremely epic, rare and hard achievements, there could even be an altar or poster which would have the description written on it, which would stay in game forever.

-various forms of property, like the already mentioned houses. These wouldn’t have to be physically present server-wide, they could be instanced.

While there’s nothing wrong with seeing (or wanting) the things to go either way, I have to point out that your concept A is actually a key element in a RPG genre, where concept B isn’t and it can actually push the game out of the genre, so to speak. It would definitely do that if it was a P’n’P RPG.
I think it’s essential for your stupid barbarian to not know the answer to a riddle, even if you, as the “owner”, do know it. Also, your intervention should be more similar to that of a chess player than to that of a football player, for example. And finally, character progression is one of the core elements of the genre.

Now, I am aware that CRPG’s tend to mix concept A with concept B. For instance, in a pure RPG, combat should be turn based, which it isn’t in majority of CRPG’s. Your intervention is far more direct and also far more limited (due to the scripting restraints and overall platform limit).
BUT, I think if the things are pushed too far in the B direction, your game simply gets thrown out of the genre. That doesn’t have to mean it’s a bad game per se, but you won’t see quake or street fighter advertised as RPG’s
Even if they would have skill distribution or less direct control, they would still need the progression part. Character progression is one of the key elements of a RPG. Player progression is something else and it’s not a mandatory thing for the genre. Don’t get me wrong, I absolutely LOVE games that emphasize player progression, but for a RPG game, character progression is mandatory. For a MMORPG even more, as it’s supposed to be an ongoing game experience, so character progression should strive to be constant, as you shouldn’t be able to “finish” the MMORPG. By “not being able to finish” I am not talking about “you can roam the world” (which you can do in some single player RPG’s also) but about actual character progression.
It doesn’t have to be gear, it doesn’t have to be leveling, but it HAS to be something that affect your CHARACTER in a meaningful way, not just the player.

“In GW2, you can still outclass people by being the better player. In a communist society, people can’t get ahead of anyone by being better. The incentive in GW2 is to be the better player, so don’t tell me that there is no incentive to improve or work hard.That’s why the sports analogy is more spot on than the communist analogy.”

In that sense of being better, you can do the exact same thing in communism with the exact same types of rewards (if we go by your analogy).

Vizual.3504:

How was WoW at the very start ? Seriously gamers are getting too demanding nowadays.

GW2 is a really really big game and it takes time to makes things happen.

Just let some time to Anet, and u’ll see. It has a lot more potential in terms of E-sport than wow.

Imo the game was released a bit too early but thats not the dev’s fault, now let them the time to bring some great pvp.

While I see where you’re coming from, some things simply can’t be justified by that principle.
Okay, we shouldn’t throw WoW’s 100+ dungeons in Anet’s face for example, because that number really is unrealistic for a MMORPG in it’s infancy. That goes for bunch of other things as well.

BUT,
There are factors and game elements that simply cannot be defended from that point.
-four(!) pvp maps
-one(!) pvp game mode
-overall pvp GUI, scoreboard, party/enemy info, stats etc.
This is an AAA game. I think (without any spite, please don’t get me wrong) that this state of things is simply unacceptable for an AAA game that reached it’s full release. I will go even further and say that this state is unacceptable for a game that’s in beta.

This is a young game, yes, but we are in 2012. If a reputable car company made a new model of a car and if that car is an open roof wooden wheels uncomfortable thing that goes 5mph, you would find that disappointing, to put it mildly. I doubt you will say “it’s a new car, give it time, look at the first mercedes in XIX century, it was the same”. I mean, it’s not the case of, I don’t know, a buggy onboard computer or a broken untested air conditioning.

This is irresponsible and dangerous – for the company. I am giving this game a big chance, as I like it and there’s no subscription to prevent me from checking it out from time to time if I get a break from it. But, there’s the catch – most people will simply leave. They might leave with a mindset “I’ll check it out when some big patch comes out”, but they won’t, their enthusiasm will be deflated, simply. This game does have a core playerbase of fans, but that’s not enough, this is a top production AAA title which can’t allow itself to cater to that small a percentage of players. I want SO MUCH for this game to succeed, but each day, each minute of status quo on these things makes the situation worse. Even more when it’s realized that big game changes and additions simply can’t be pulled of in a week or even a month. That’s why I am saying about having those big changes and additions BEFORE full release.

krieb.6039:

I’m really happy that there is no gear treadmill. Burnt out on that a long time ago.

I like the philosophy of not having a gear advantage in pvp. It promotes learning to play well as a group instead of relying on OP gear stats.

That is perfectly fine. BUT, it’s just an empty principle which NEEDS to be filled with content, the game has to offer something, “meaningful and substantial”. Like the imaginary games I have mentioned. We have quake-like dynamic no-mechanical advantage pvp. That sounds cool. BUT
-we have 4 (four) maps
-we have 1 (one) game mode
-we have attrocious GUI, uninformative screens and scoreboards, party info/screen etc.

So we have the key aspect of the game pretty kittened. I mean, that’s irresponsible, to say the least.

As for the gear treadmill, look at it like this: it’s a game element. GW2 lacks that element – on purpose. That’s fine, it defines the game and developers took their route. But, it doesn’t matter whether that’s positive or negative thing – it’s still the case of missing element. That element has to be replaced with another element “of same value”, to add to the overall game value. OR, alternatively, the game has to absolutely excel in other elements.

A VERY simplified example:
Look at Quake 3. For the sake of simplicity, we’ll say it has just one element – “pvp”. But it’s absolutely brilliant in that matter and that one element is enough to keep the value of the game pretty high.

I think that people are trying to say this, more than they want gear treadmill specifically. GW2 can be either a broad game or more of a niche game. In either case, something big-ish has to happen pretty soon.
If GW2 wants to be a broad MMO juggernaut, it must add dozens of various elements and content. If it wants to be a compact niche game, it must excel in that particular niche.

The point I am trying to make is that GW2 will have to have SOMETHING. It has no gear treadmill, ok, no problem, the game is based more on an equal ground pvp and as for pve, it revovles around exploration. Also, it’s grind niche is about vanity stuff. Nothing wrong with that. Also, the game is new, so it doesn’t have loads of stuff, maps, dungeons etc. That is ok too, it will surely get updated and expanded with time.

BUT (and this is a big BUT), for a full released AAA title, it simply has to do better in some or all or any of the mentioned or not mentioned areas. All taken into consideration.
I am not talking about things like Secret of banana’s 40 000 quests or Magical potato’s 15 pvp match modes. Let’s look at some things, pvp for example:
-how many match modes there is?
-how many maps there is?
-look at the pvp GUI – team/enemy/match info and stuff
-look at the pvp lobby interface
-look at the scoreboard, match stats etc.
Those are things that SHOULD be at least at the solid level (and solid quantity) at the time of release of the game of this caliber. Those things are simply bad now. I think this is an honest, objective assessment. Of course, it’s how I see things, but I really think it could be said it’s a fact.
And those are mostly stuff that are in the code so to speak. I mean, you don’t need months of beta testing and balancing and implementing mini-codes and scripts to have, for example, a wonderful, informational, category-heavy scoreboard or end-match screen with bunch of stats and kitten… It’s not new stuff, the game certainly knows how many 100b’s have I done, for example. Those things are important, no matter they may look unimportant. I really felt I was playing some alpha release of a B grade TPS. That’s something basic for an AAA title.
For example, balance is something different. It’s a neverending ongoing process and I am perfectly fine with that. But these things, these seemingly little things mean A LOT.

Now, I may have digressed here an there, but the bottom line is, a game HAS to have bunch of meaningful and substantial content. Furthermore, the technical level of that content has to be GREAT in an AAA game.
For example, admiring landscape is not meaningful and substantial (doesn’t matter if someone likes to do it or not, that’s not the point), it’s supportive content. On the other hand, pvp is substantial and meaningful content, but it’s far from great, to put it extremely mildly.

I do say, the game is in it’s infancy, but still. I will give it a chance, a BIG chance. But the developers have to recognize that chance and acknowledge it. And they have to do it quickly. I mean, I am certain that relatively high percentage of players won’t give that big a chance to this game, and, sadly, rightly so. Some percentage of those players will come back in a year when the game “reaches it’s 1.00 state”, but that percentage, I think, is minimal.

The good thing is, I see constant developer activity. I hope it won’t be the case of too little, too late. Or worse, taking the wrong concept (like Blizzard did with Diablo).

p.s.
I have come across the argument “this is a niche game” many times. Well, in my opinion, this mustn’t be a niche game (at least not in that regard – having a loyal small community). I am not saying about personal preferences, I am saying about economy and level of production. This is a serious AAA game that is trying to target a lot of customers/players.
It can be a niche game in a sense of targeting certain large chunk of MMO players. For example, it’s niche could be “pvp MMORPG type” or “vanity based grind MMORPG type” etc. But it simply can’t allow itself to be too narrow.

I don’t think in terms of gear treadmill per se, I think more in terms of “everything and anything”.

To clarify what I mean – let’s imagine that we have some scale that defines how a game is doing in terms of “what to do after the adventure”. As a MMORPG it should be an ongoing experience of opportunities and stuff to do. Like I said, there are roughly two ways to do this, by making conceptual and structured progression or by making sheer quantity of content which doesn’t have to be progression based, but provides activity.

I said WoW’s got both, but I also said it’s an eight year old AAA juggernaut that had four massive expansions, so it’s not really fair to bring it into discussion about “stuff to do” with a game that got out two months ago.

That said, let’s imagine a MMORPG called Magical potato:)
Magical potato has a relatively small map, five dungeons, three professions and a couple of hundred quests. It also has structured content that can be finished in a week. Also, it has absolutely no gear treadmill. But the worst part is, it doesn’t have ANY content updates, just bug fixes. But it scores 8 out of 10 on our imaginary “what to do after adventure” scale. Why?
-30 pvp maps
-bunch of pvp modes – ctf, domination, arenas, team deathmatch, 1v1, conquest, a couple of new modes which we haven’t seen before etc.
-all of the modes are laddered
-all of the modes are accessible in the casual random queue mode also
-there are different tiers of competitions, also different kinds of competitions
-there are also UNBELIEVABLY customizable tournaments – duration of matches, scoring system, map rotation, gear allowance, level requirements, prize distribution etc.
-there are pvp points – they don’t need to provide anything that affects the game mechanics, you can, for instance, receive honorable titles or “glowing-particles dagger of bad MF” with a good performance.

So, Magical potato is a game with great endgame content and can provide YEARS of fun for it’s players. It has 3 out of 10 in a lot of aspects on our scale, but it scores a whopping 12 out of 10 for an end game non-progression based content, both in quality and quantity.

We could imagine another example, some opposite kind of game. We’ll call it Secret of banana:)
Secret of banana also scores high on our scale. That’s odd, as it lacks all the things which make Magical potato endure years without adding content. Also, it too has no gear treadmill, or content updates. But, let’s see what it provides:
-HUGE map. The map of this scale has yet to be seen in video game industry.
-40 000 quests and events, that scale with level of player doing them, also providing vanity titles and items
-150 dungeons with variable difficulty, accessible through the automatic queue tool, which has flawless and informational interface.
-15 crafting professions with 500 hard to obtain levels each, requiring player to roam the world and/or trade items and materials to progress. Professions give money and prestige to the players, also vanity high level items and titles.
-200 player levels, with every level requiring more time to obtain

So, Secret of banana has virtually no pvp and caters more to the pve crowd. It also has a very weak structured progressive endgame. But, it shines in the size department. It would take players months and months to explore the map, it would take them years to do quests (which are scalable, remember), years to do dungeons etc.

We could have a third game here, Staff of eternity. Staff of eternity has small size, small amount of content, small amount of grind… it is a game where you have seen everything it has to offer in two months. But, wait. It has ONE thing:)
-constant progressive content updates. You have seen the game in two months, but what’s that? Two new dungeons, level cap increased, 30 quests added, small region added and a set of MILDLY stronger drops. See you in two months!

EDIT: CONTINUATION AFTER NAOKO’S POST
We posted in the same time:)

But the most important factor (although it’s dependant on other factors) is the eight years of existence. I mean, WoW has, like, hundred dungeons or something. That’s, like, A LOT. But it had eight years to implement them (and the number of synergetic factors with that, but let’s not complicate).

The thing is, this game is in it’s early infancy. Yes, we had beta, yes, we are in 2012. and some things should be mandatory, but still, that’s a fact. Only two months in, we have a relatively big update and anouncements about things to come, apparently very soon (arenas, for example). If the projected pace establishes, we will have a very enjoyable game relatively filled with content in a year or so. The problem is, the game needs to survive that period of infancy, while retaining players. A problem which not many games had solved, unfortunately.

That said, while I am under impression that Anet is putting constant effort in this game, I think that I need to criticize things a bit, as there are areas which are not so much dependent on gradual game development over the course of months and years.

For instance, number of dungeons and overall, lack of entry level dungeons or gradual dungeon difficulty increase or wider range of dungeon difficulty levels (with scaled rewards, of course). This is not the matter of “catering to the casuals”, no, it’s just about gradual introducing to the concept and content. The regular or hard difficulty level of dungeons should not be changed, of course.

Then, there’s the PvP. It’s UI and menu construction are terrible and there’s no excuse for that. Also, lack of game modes, maps, size of teams etc. etc. etc. I believe all that would be introduced gradually, but why THAT gradually?:) I mean, the game will SURELY lose relatively significant amount of players that way. There is a difference between “a finished product that is in it’s infancy and needs to grow and progress gradually” and a “broken beta lacking in both quality and quantity and execution and comfortability of modes”.
After all, this game is a serious AAA product and it should be regarded as such both by players and by developers.

I think this game is still in it’s early stage and should be given a chance and time, yes, even in the “classic endgame” department. Players should give it a chance to develop, as they themselves are one of the key elements that affect that development.
On the other side, developers MUST realize that they have being given that chance and not blow it. I am not saying they are sitting in their offices doing nothing, but NOW is the crunch time for them. Now is the time for investment in term of effort. The game won’t last longer if they make a MINDBLOWING patch in august, it will last longer if they make that patch in december, or even earlier. Is it possible? I don’t know, but it’s sorely needed.

I am a very, VERY casual player:) I say that because I don’t want anybody to think I have some ulterior motives behind this post:)

I don’t understand why skill/gear/fluffiness/achievement/vanity/power/content gap would be a bad thing in a MMORPG. If someone is playing ten hours a day and invests effort in googling, practicing and playing, he should get better payoff than me, in EVERY aspect. It’s perfectly logical. It makes for a diverse environment and there’s a content for everybody.

Even in single player games, you don’t have the content simply unlocked, you have to work/play for it. You have not purchased everything in a MMORPG (in the sense of a rich guy purchasing the track, vehicles and bribed drivers so he could participate in races and win them:) ), you have purchased the potential to participate/unlock/get the content. You have purchased the polygon where you have options open to do what you want and to the level you want.

Some will say that this is not real life, but the opposite and that it’s a game. That’s correct, but MMORPG does mimic the life in some aspects, mainly ones that relate to the open world and content. Which has beggars, lawyers, merchants, bullies, busy people, kitten etc.

It’s a game as well. And in every game, there is competition, in one form or another. Also, in every game there’s a reward, in one form or another.
Gear grind is both reputable and infamous, but personally, I don’t see anything wrong with it. Everybody has the same starting position and potential effective time, it’s up to them what they’ll do with it.

I don’t play very much, I don’t have much time, and when I do, it’s not predictable, so I rarely can do dungeon runs, god forbid raids if there were any. I play here and there, in batches of an hour or so. I have invested about 20 hours in the game so far. Some guy, let’s call him Joe, has invested 400 hours, combined with OoG effort. He SHOULD have the advantage over me in EVERY aspect, not just skill-wise and knowledge-wise or fluff-wise.

Now, some say it’s catering to hardcore players. I don’t think it is. If there’s a substantial content and “carrot on a stick” for Joe, than there’s definitely ten times as much of that for me, as I have played twenty times less than Joe has. Sure, Joe can one-shot me if he wants, or kick me out of a dungeon group because he likes to do dungeons with Joe2 and Joe3. But that’s perfectly okay and normal. I mean, there are a lot of ME running around, certainly FAR, FAR more than Joes.

PvP? No problem, there still are a lot more of me running around than Joes. Skill/gear brackets? Why not.

Also, I don’t see what is wrong with comparing elements of GW2 to elements of WoW, or any other game, for that matter, MMORPG or not. “This is not WoW, stop comparing” is really a spin of an argument. I mean, if I say something like “the crafting is better in XYZ”, why should anyone say something different than “yes because blabla” or “I disagree because blablablah”? “It’s not XYZ” isn’t an argument, nor it makes a point. I know this is not XYZ, that’s why I am making the comparison in the first place:) I could even say something like “the controls are more responsive in (non-MMO) XXZ”, though that would be debatable, as the whole control system could be vastly different.

As for the endgame, I strongly believe that a MMORPG must have substantial content “after the adventure” to be considered as having the endgame.
I love quake, I have been playing it in multiplayer since quake one. The multiplayer endgame concept does not exist in this game for obvious reason – there’s no progression and there shouldn’t be. This concept is FAR from a bad concept PER SE. But, I think it’s bad in a MMORPG. And there are two ways to create the endgame in a MMORPG. First one is to create enough MEANINGFUL OR ENGAGING content (doesn’t have to be progressive) for a player to enjoy. Second one is to constantly update the game to effectively prolong the “adventure part” – progression.

WoW has both, so to speak. Now, I already hear thousand voices shouting at me with “go away, this is not WoW”))
But, let me finish, the point I am trying to make is apologetic towards GW2, not the opposite.
The important thing is WHY WoW has both. There are several reasons:
-the game exists for eight years
-the game has been developed by a very rich and powerful company
-there is an open mod policy, for mods which don’t tamper with gameplay mechanics
-developers have a habit of incorporating that mods into the game’s vanilla UI
-the game was made by a VERY popular company at the peak of interest for their warcraft universe and at the time when a quality AAA MMORPG was needed, which granted WoW a huge amount of players = money = staff = support = content = flow.
-the game had four big expansions

I guess all boils down to personal expectation and assumption… I haven’t got any chests/keys because I assumed it would take me a couple of hundreds of chests opened to get one or two items, so I simply passed. Looks like I was right. I based my assumption on the fact that they are unique vanity skins which are supposed to be extremely rare. Like, if you see two people carrying them in one week, it wouldn’t be good…

Now, I must disclaim that this certainly isn’t a “lol I knew it” kind of post, I am just providing another aspect to the whole thing. When I opened this topic, I was actually surprised as I already took for granted that event would be like it turned out to be, and didn’t think anybody assumed differently. It goes to show that individual perception indeed differs very much, even if it’s based on the same info. I even thought the drop rate would be lower, like “I heard there’s two guys with same halloween skin on Gandara” or something. I really don’t know why, the whole event just sounded like that to me, with all the “chance to win” marketing. I perceived it that way. And yet, there are several people already in this very six page long topic that say they got the skins… For what I have expected, that’s extremely good drop rate…

That said, I was really surprised that there are players that thought differently and it appears it’s a majority of players. While I don’t understand that point of view, I certainly accept it as fact – it’s a fact that majority of players expected something else (if these forums reflect the percentile opinion of game-wide population). Therefore, we must conclude there was a fail in communication and we must blame it on the company, for the simple reason of the percentage of players disappointed.

But, my point is, that the fail probably wasn’t done on purpose, as there are people in this topic (and not THAT less in percentage) who expected the event to be like this. So, I think both Anet and the players have something to learn from this. I think it would be wise if the devs would comment on this matter in either way – “we never said the chance was favorable” or “we apologize for the faulty info/event” – both are providing valid info which would serve both parties well in the future.

I bought the game about a week ago and I am still browsing through the races/professions and I can say that, personally, I find the female Sylvari OoC running animation the best in the game. And I am not saying that just from the “appealing” aspect, but from the aspects of anatomy and motion capture efficacy.