Guild Wars 2

Somna.5168:

To be honest, I’d rather any changes get tacked on to the traits than to the utility slots. We’ve already got a lot of things competing for those three slots already.

Thing is: You can swap slot skills with two clicks anytime, anywhere. Changing traits is a little more demanding in time and gold.

@Kalar: If being forced to explore slower doesn’t impact your gaming experience, great. Personally I don’t see any trade-off at all, because that would have to be something so powerful and unique to Mesmers that it justifies having to do virtually everything slower than all other professions. And what would that be?

And nobody said anything about getting rid of the whole Signet of Inspiration or the active ability connected to it. Just the swiftness buff in the random list, in exchange for a passive that offers +10% movement speed.

Speed-related traits would be nice, as well, seeing as we don’t have anything there, but that’d be icing on the imagined cake. I really think a slot skill that can be used no matter what build or weapon set (like every other profession has access to) should be priority at this point.

@pknight: If in your book the Mesmer’s “real power” “as a whole” has to involve moving that slower around the map than any other profession (or, for that mapper, having to make sacrifices in runes, items or weapons loudout like no other profession has to), I think you’re the one who’s assuming things.

I think “always swiftness up running around” would be far from true, seeing as swiftness is just 1 of 8 random buffs to be applied every 10 seconds (in other words, you get it once every 80 seconds in average) and it lasts only for five seconds.

So: No. 10% passive always would be much more useful.

sigh Again, again, again…you don’t learn, do you.

All professions have weapon skills for movement, yet all but Mesmer have something else in utility skills in addition to a weapon skill. Makes them much less dependend on a certain weapon set.

The large majority of the game is not spent underwater. Your point? Does not exist.

Blink has very little impact on the movement speed bottom line, we discussed that before. Vistas or jumping puzzles are besides the point as well, and the ulitity portal offers for those doesn’t go much further than a ‘safety net’. Doesn’t help you go faster anywhere, just saves you some time if you screw up.

You are the one who always fails to make a decent comparison. Everything you point out are workarounds that optimize a Mesmer’s runspeed – always neglecting to see that other professions don’t have to go to those lenghts or make these optimizations in order to achieve a decent baseline runspeed. But I’ll gladly repeat: Take a Mesmer and any other profession, both up to their eyeballs with Centaur runes. The Mesmer will still eat the other profession’s dust.

@EasyModeX:

And yet again you mix up (by purpose?) “mobility” (dodging, mob evasion, placement etc.) with straight, out-of-combat runspeed. No matter what runes, tricks and everything else you throw into the basket – even when a runspeed-optimized Mesmer will sorely lag behind all other (runspeed-optimized) professions.

I really don’t know what your beef is with this thing. Should you ever feel ‘overpowered’ or even ‘too fast’ when playing a Mesmer, just don’t use that skill then, right? Like I said: If you don’t care about this – just leave. Please do. It would make way for real suggestions instead of your useless bashing.

“Map exploration” applies to everything in the game. Getting to that Heart or Event faster. Getting to that tree or herb faster. Getting to that ore vein faster. Getting to that merchant around the corner faster. Just look how much in this game involves running from A to B, even if only for a few seconds and you may begin to see why every other profession has a reliable slot skill boost to this in addition to traits and weapon skills.

sigh EasymodeX, we’ve been at this before. If you don’t care about this isse, just gtfo instead of saying “I don’t care” in various ways, always repeating arguments that have already been exposed as invalid.

I believe I already made a suggestion everyone could live with:
Drop the random swiftness buff on Signet of Inspiration and give it a 10% passive movement boost instead. Done.

Thanks for all the input and suggestions. I’m currently taking the time to watch MrPrometheus’ Comprehensive Guide and I think I picked up a lot of pointers here, too.

@mangarrage: I like Mesmer too much and I wouldn’t give up playing it for the world, even if it really were an underpowered profession. But I believe I’m going to get a grip on things now. I guess the power is all there, just a lot less obvious than in other professions.

@kubetz:

It should pull mobs towards the curtain but the distance of the pull is constant.

Ah, that clears it up a little! And makes the skill difficult to use indeed!

@xerukm: Thanks for the suggestions to look into combos in general. Though I get the feeling that confusion is not worth much in PvE, due to mobs attacking very slowly. :/

@kubetz: Thanks, I’ll have a look at those videos later.

Try switching to focus offhand for pulls involving multiple mobs and practicing how to maximize uptime of the iWarden on the mobs. Unfortunately I have no videos demonstrating that, but Blurred Frenzy with the Warden next to you can result in a big AoE.

Thing is when I use the Focus 4 on where my Warden is (to pull the mobs to him), it pulls the mobs everywhere across the map, but not to anywhere close to the Curtain (or Warden). I don’t understand how to influence the outcome? Or is it a bug?

Started a new thread about this, asking for constructive comments. You’re invited!

Alright. I didn’t do the math, I can only report from my own playing experience here.

Please refrain from arguments like “lol, it’s a multiplayer game” – that’s not my point here. I also feel useless in the damage department in PvE when partying, but I won’t have to be the one DPSing in that case, so it’s not that bad there. Still, the official stance of ANet is that all professions are viable for any of the three roles: Control, Support and yes, that includes damage.

So I’d like to know if I’m the only one who gets the following impressions when playing Mesmer solo in PvE, compared to my play experience with other professions.

- downing groups of normal mobs takes significantly longer
- instant, direct damage-dealing at the beginning of combat is significantly lower
- in general, it takes a lot of specializing / picking certain weapons (sword, pistol, staff for me) and specific rotations / skill combinations in order to down mobs at a speed somewhat comparable to other professions who can pick any weapon and just faceroll

- the one good thing I can think of: singular tough opponents can be survived almost indefinitely (until someone with way higher DPS comes along to finish the job for us, which would otherwise take ages)

I’m well aware of the official claim that Mesmers play ‘differently’. I didn’t expect it would result in having to invest much more effort than others to reach the same efficiency in PvE.

And no: This is not supposed to be a whine thread – I’m very much asking for suggestions in playstyle for doing more direct damage, downing mobs as quickly as possible, and generally finding an ‘ideal’ aprpoach to clearing PvE content quickly, straightforward and efficiently as a Mesmer. At the moment I’m traited for Domination, using longsword + pistol / staff.

kubetz.3058:

Endolex.8327:

I continue to feel rather weak in PvE, having to struggle with specific weapon sets and rotations to achieve just barely the same results like I got when just randomly equipping weapons and facerolling other profession I played. And groups of normal mobs are a big problem, especially in Personal Story.

Have a look here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/104qhj/re_mesmers_in_orr_no_seriously_its_fine/ .

There are a lot of mesmers than don’t feel weak in PvE. Maybe the playstyle is just not for you or your approach to the profession is suboptimal. Mesmer is a profession with playstyle that won’t suit everybody’s taste.

The video for the comments on reddit is only about PvP, as far as I can see. But yes, this belongs somewhere else.

Gaiawolf.8261:

I have a better idea. Allow illusions to exist outside of combat and then you can use Compounding Celerity. It would also get rid of those annoying “you must have a target” messages.

While I certainly like the idea of summoning illusions at will and independently from enemies, I’m not sure many players would like having to run around with three fellows + having to trait for faster movement. Also, being able to summon-at-will would touch many balancing issues (for example, being able to prepare a shatter ahead of combat might be a very tough nuke in PvP).

Well, I’m not immune to QQing about PvE Mesmer in general (see post above), but you’re right, it belongs somewhere else. Will edit the post, thank you!

Lumines.3916:

I really do not understand your allergic reaction to Focus.

I like Focus, for a lot of reasons. It’s just not the only off-hand I like. Also, I sure don’t want to discuss the advantages or disadvantages of weapon skills across professions here. This is about movement slot skills.

Everyone else is fine with keeping another set just for the speed buff

Speak for yourself. I’m definitely not fine with it, and judging from this thread, I’m not the only one.

Mesmers already have everything jesus, if this is the biggest complaint you have about the class, first world problem to the max.

Well, we might have everything in PvP, I seriously don’t know, because I just don’t do PvP. (But from what I hear, Confusion is actually worth akittenthere, because players use skills much faster than AI mobs).
I continue to feel rather weak in PvE, having to struggle with specific weapon sets and rotations to achieve just barely the same results like I got when just randomly equipping weapons and facerolling other profession I played. And groups of normal mobs are a big problem, especially in Personal Story.
So lacking movement speed as well is the tip of the iceberg, but the most obvious whenever I return to playing Mesmer after having played another profession. The thing is that the movement issue could be fixed quite easily the way I suggested above.

Maybe I should make a concrete suggestion. These two changes to Signet of Inspiration would make me happy:

1) I’d readily give up the swiftness buff in the “random” list of buffs in combat if
2) a passive (always active) movement bonus of at least 10% was added.

Anyone opposed?

@kubetz:

“but profession X can do that so mesmers should be able to do that” type of argument

I don’t mind that thieves and elementalists can have 25%. I’m not aiming that high. My point is: Every profession but the Mesmer has some reliable slot skill way to improve movement.

but you are a proud owner of Portal which he will love everytime you will be doing jumping puzzles

You can’t be serious, of course. The use of the Mesmer Portal is VERY situational at best in PvE, and Jumping Puzzles are neither something I focus on nor can they be compared to general movement (which you do, like, all the time).

I’m not aware of the existance of “out of combat exploration” labels for any skills/traits in the game

This line isn’t “artificial”, it’s factual. We have no reliable slot skill for generally moving faster or gaining swiftness out of combat, while all other professions do. Being able to generally move faster improves nearly all aspects of the game – outside of combat, where you usually don’t have to cover ground quickly. And it’s especially interesting for a certain Signet of Inspiration which sometimes grants swiftness but only works IN combat now.

Shar:

Hint : open inventory. Double click on focus. Speed buff. Double click on your original weapon. Rinse. Repeat. Problem solved.

No. I mentioned above why Focus 4 doesn’t count for me. Depending / limiting yourself to a certain weapon for this won’t cut it when no other profession has to. It’s far easier to swap a slot skill than having to reorganize your weapon sets just for movement benefits.

Making the shatter skills slot skills and use self-recharging mantra skills as the class mechanic sounds like an excellent idea to me (mainly because I don’t like shattering at all except Mind Wrack as a finisher – shattering in the middle of combat makes me feel very vulnerable for very little benefit).
This way, Mantras would see actual use, shattering would become optional and we’d get rid of the incessant voice quips for recharging Mantras. Everybody wins.

@Devicus

“Useless and broken abilities and the like don’t stop a class being playable and fun by any means but a lot of people see them and say “I like what they’re trying to do here but it doesn’t work” and try to help.”

Exactly! I wouldn’t be criticizing if I didn’t like playing the profession anyway.

@Nretep:

“But generally I don’t see a big problem in this. Mesmers are PvP/ WvW classes and weak in PvE.”

So people who’d like to play a Mesmer in PvE and don’t care much for PvP are no relevant part of the player base to be considered?

Carighan.6758:

@Carighan: Although think that would be a step in the right direction it wouldn’t really solve the problem, but be more like additional icing on the non-existent cake.
There’d still be no traits or dedicated Signets for ooc-movement, and I don’t really like to depend on random boons for something other professions can do reliably. :/

If reliable runspeed increases are added to all classes, they might as well be added to no classes (and base runspeed increased).

I don’t see what you say as a solution. I would see adding passive runspeed to us as another symptom of an issue which needs a fix (too much access to runspeed for many classes, us excluded but sitll, issue is an issue).

It’s ok if Thieves get +25%, it’s very unique for them. Why does everyone else need 10%, again?
If world-size is an issue, they could just bump base speed and nerf all 10% runspeeds.

But I don’t want to end up having to waste a sigil just so I can keep up with people running away. That effectively makes for cold war, we all lose 1 utility slot for our runspeed sigils, and we all have to use them, since everyone else has them.

Not a good solution. Not a solution at all, tbh.

I could live with that kind of ‘cold war’, because I don’t claim that movement speed is always the highest priority for everyone. All I want is at least a single option in slot skills to choose from like other professions are able to.

It doesn’t matter how often you repeat it: Being able to dodge encounters has exactly nothing to do with moving faster (btw: I can outrun groups of Mobs without using any kind of dodging or movement boost. It’s beside the point altogether).

And I’m not stopping all the time and even at short distances a movement boost makes a huge difference. If that weren’t the case, NO profession would need any slot skill swiftness or Signet passive, remember? But strangely enough, all but us have something.
This is my firsthand gaming experience after having tried all other professions – fact is that I feel the slowest and most limited in that regard with Mesmer.

Yup, you can gather, you can do hearts, you can everything quite well – if you move quickly enough around the world. Circle complete, discussion over, at least on my part.

EasymodeX.4062:

Sub-80 doesn’t matter because you’ll be killing stuff along the way, removing most of the relevance of pure speed.

Nope. Well, I can’t speak for you, but I don’t attack everything in sight with no DE or Renown Heart around to give me incentive. I move from place to place and do whatever’s needed, because XP rewards for just killing are abysmal, as ANet intended them to be.

You can trait for 20% cooldown on Blink, you can trait for 20% cooldown on Chaos Storm (which has a pretty high chance to grant swiftness). You can trait for longer distance on Blink, although that seems like “trying too hard” for the purpose of running around the map.

That doesn’t make Blink any more relevant for covering ground, nor does ‘a pretty high chance’ mean anything reliable – and again, relying on Chaos Storm would mean having to equip a staff just for movement. No, thanks. See below.

You can trait for perma vigor, so you can dodge roll all thekittentime. […] You could pick up 6 Centaur Runes and use Mirror for almost perma Swiftness, no weapon swap required…..

You probably missed the several times I wrote that I don’t care for having to use workarounds or even rune for swiftness or passive movement speed when all other professions get at least one direct slot skill for it, traits and other workarounds not even included.

Once and for all, EasymodeX: Whether the issue can be worked around with a lot of effort is besides the point. The point being that we should not have to work around it if no other profession has to.

@EasymodeX:

I don’t expect you to do any thinking for me. I do expect valid arguments if you aim at denying any necessity to give Mesmers a movement boost. You have delivered none so far. Let’s see the list:

1. So far, I haven’t really spent that much time of the game underwater and I don’t expect to, so: No, I don’t find this relevant at all.

2. Blink does very little / nothing to speed up out of combat movement. With that large of a cooldown and the pitiful distance, it’s clearly meant as an escape skill in combat, not for covering ground faster.

3. Rangers at least get a signet for 10% run speed and can gain swiftness for weapon swapping (if they choose to spend 5 points in Skirmishing). That’s a lot more than we have in slot skills or traits (nothing at all).

I never said it has to be a passive. I just want something in slot skills and / or traits. So let’s compare further, shall we?

4. Warriors at least get Banner of Defense 3, “Inspire”, which grants 10s of Swiftness every 15s, so they can apply swiftness 2-3 times for every 2 minutes (Banner cooldown), even more often if they spend 10 points in Tactics (trait V “Inspiring Banners”) . They can also spend 10 points in Discipline to gain the passive 10% “Warrior’s Sprint” when wielding melee weapons. That’s a lot more than we have in slot skills or traits (nothing at all).

5. Guardians at least get “Retreat” as a slot skill, which offers 20s of swiftness once per minute. With 5 points in Honor, they get even more out of it (trait II “Superior Aria”)
That’s a lot more than we have in slot skills or traits (nothing at all).

And no, I won’t take Focus 4 in the equation. Otherwise I’d have to compare it to Guardian’s Staff 3 – and we have a way worse length/cooldown ratio. But having to equip a certain weapon, runing armor etc. is much more limiting anyway than quickly exchanging one slot skill for another.

EasymodeX.4062:

Oh no, it’s going to take you another 20 seconds to activate that waypoint! Not that it matters, because you are typically fighting mobs on your way there, so your other abilities like Blink will cool down anyways.

Nothing but bads commiserating with bads.

‘Typically’, large parts of the map can can be covered without encountering any mobs. Otherwise there’d no reason for out of combat movement boosts to even exist for other professions, would there? So either they don’t really need them or Mesmers should get some, too. Some balancing is called for in each case.
And it’s not about 20 seconds (which I’d find horrible enough) – it’s about seeing and playing other professions who breeze around at their leasure while you feel like hauling dead weight. To compare this with certain other MMORPGs: This is the equivalent of playing the only class that can’t use a mount.

EasymodeX.4062:

while still taking a lot longer to take down mobs in PvE, no matter how optimal skill and trait combinations get.

Uh, don’t be bad. Complaining about moving across the map is one thing — that’s an area Mesmers are actually a little underpar at, not that anyone really cares (hint: use a waypoint). Complaining that Mesmers take a long time to kill stuff is basically all on you.

1. Great idea, waypoints! Why didn’t I think of that? Probably because I was talking about getting to Waypoints faster in order to activate them in the first place! And please speak only for you in terms of what people care about. Several replies here tell me that several people do care about this issue.

2. Agreed – the inherently sub-par damage in PvE for Mesmers is worth another thread. Coming soon.

Levetty.1279:

But everything about Mantras is awful so whatever.

Getting off topic, but: Yes, agreed. :/

@Carighan: Although think that would be a step in the right direction it wouldn’t really solve the problem, but be more like additional icing on the non-existent cake.
There’d still be no traits or dedicated Signets for ooc-movement, and I don’t really like to depend on random boons for something other professions can do reliably. :/

A slot skill and / or trait (not a specific weapon skill!) for boosting our out-of-combat movement.

@Lawbringer: A range boost does exactly nothing to alleviate slower exploration. How often do I need to write that I’m NOT talking about combat? Apples and oranges! Besides, the thief is a ‘burst movement’ class as well – AND gets a lot of out-of-combat speed bonuses. As do all other professions but the Mesmer.

@Kylia: Sorry, but I don’t want Mesmer to be the only profession who has to rely on other players in order to get around the map quickly.

In general: I’m largely talking about PvE here. I don’t care much for PvP, neither WvWvW nor sPvP. We’re seriously underpowered in PvE, in my experience (having tried every other profession with a much better results). Because being somewhat better at surviving or dodging encounters doesn’t help me to be effective at clearing PvE content. We’re the slowest by far in that field, and not only because of our movement handicap.

Temariah.9372:

This may be slightly off topic, but I’m a bit ashamed that you’re making a mountain out of a molehill. Yes, we are somewhat lacking in the map mobility department the way you describe it, but we have a lot of other strengths, and the point that a lot of us were making is that if not being mobile in a city is what really kills you, you CAN work around it. It just seems like you don’t want to put in the effort and you want Anet to fix it for you and make it easy.

As far as maps with mobs or events, we may not be as fast, but we’re just as successful when it comes to getting around and surviving.

I don’t think we need any sort of speed buffs.

You’re absolutely right: I just don’t WANT to work around it with heavy specialization in traits, equipment and weapon choice it when NO OTHER profession has to.

And as I said before, faster movement out of combat is something else entirely than dodging or surviving encounters in my view. The first one is a general utility skill which all professions but us have in some way – the second one is related to combat.

And to digress a little as well, if only to illustrate why the movement issue is only the tip of the iceberg to me, but still the most visible part of it: I just don’t see these strengths of ours, anyway. All I see is having to put in a lot more work and specialization in order to be just barely as effective in specific PvE areas (survivability? movement? damage?) as other professions are all around, all the time – while still taking a lot longer to take down mobs in PvE, no matter how optimal skill and trait combinations get.
Yes, we’re for some reason called a “support profession” (unofficially, by the way – according to ANet, every profession can fill any role). But even if we were mainly there for support, that shouldn’t mean that we are at a huge disadvantage when soloing PvE or – just like Aimeryan described it above – slowing down and annoying those who play with us.

Vexor.3640:

I’m sure someone mentioned this, but I’ll repeat it. Staff 5: Chaos Storm will frequently give speed boosts. Place it slightly ahead as you’re running to ensure you cross the entire field of Chaos Storm. This will give you the best odds of gaining speed.

Take the Torch, Decoy and Mass Invis as well for travel. Invis helps keep you out of combat which means you run full speed.

Thanks Vexor, but as I already said: I don’t think workarounds like these are enough to keep up with other professions. Fact is that we’re at a serious disadvantage here in comparison, and nothing but the addition of dedicated out-of-combat-movement skills or traits for Mesmer will remedy that, I believe.

To all those who gave suggestions on how to circumvent this issue: Thank you, but I was trying to make the point here that we shouldn’t HAVE to rely on runes or specific weapons in order to boost our ground covered – because no other profession has to. And no, I don’t buy into “we’re supposed to be harder to play”. Not if it results in having to struggle in order to get BARELY equal to other professions who get handed these basic things to them on a silver platter.

And: Being able to bypass enemies is beside the point altogether. Large parts of the maps and cities (waypoint, PoI exploration) don’t have any encounters.

To make things clear: I don’t mind playing a more ‘complicated’ class which isn’t too obvious in many regards. But if I have to rune for movement, I’m wasting runes that other professions can invest into more useful things. Or I’d have to carry extra equipment / block inventory slots just for movement and still be at a disadvantage compared to a profession who does the same.

EDIT (thanks to Kubetz):
Maybe I should make a concrete suggestion. These two changes to Signet of Inspiration would make me happy (and possibly other Mesmer players):

1) I’d readily give up the swiftness buff in the “random” list of buffs in combat if
2) a passive (always active) movement bonus of at least 10% was added.
Anyone opposed?