Guild Wars 2

drcraig.9403:

Oh Yeah, well just for that I’m transferring to MAG as soon as possible and infect you all!

That’s like going number 1 in an ocean of number 1.

Everything is discussed openly in WvW and every WvW-er claims the right to have an opinion on any and all questions. One plays on Jade Quarry, the other Maguuma, one a server leader, the other a pug, a commander, a scout, a zerger, a roamer. There is nothing dishonorable about choosing one side or the other of a question. Discussions happen in public and where matters are unclear or confused one settles it by argument and counter argument. But there is one problem that is not discussed publicly, one that it is delicate even to mention: the Blackgate question. It is taboo in our gamemode.

The Blackgate player is immunized against all dangers: one may call him a scoundrel, parasite, swindler, profiteer, it all runs off him like water off a raincoat. But call him a blobber and you will be astonished at how he recoils, how injured he is, how he suddenly shrinks back: “I’ve been found out.”

One cannot defend himself against the Blackgate player. He attacks with lightning speed from his position of safety and uses his abilities to crush any attempt at defense.

Quickly he turns the attacker’s charges back on him and the attacker becomes the liar, the troublemaker, the terrorist. Nothing could be more mistaken than to defend oneself. That is just what the Blackgate player wants. He can invent a new lie every day for the enemy to respond to, and the result is that the enemy spends so much time defending himself that he has no time to do what the Blackgate player really fears: to attack. The accused has become the accuser, and loudly he shoves the accuser into the dock. So it always was in the past when a person or a movement fought players from Blackgate. That is what would happen to us as well were we not fully aware of his nature, and if we lacked the courage to draw the following radical conclusions:

1. One cannot fight the Blackgate player by positive means. He is a negative, and this negative must be erased from the WvW system or he will forever corrupt it.
2. One cannot discuss the Blackgate question with Blackgate players. One can hardly prove to a person that one has the duty to render him harmless.
3. One cannot allow Blackgate players the same means one would give an honest opponent, for he is no honorable opponent. He will use generosity and nobility only to trap his enemy.
4. The Blackgate player has nothing to say about WvW questions. He is a foreigner, an alien, who only enjoys the rights of a guest, rights that he always abuses.
5. The so-called honorable morality of the Blackgate players is no morality at all, rather an encouragement to betrayal. Therefore, they have no claim to protection from ANet.
6. The Blackgate player is not smarter than we are, rather only cleverer and craftier. His system cannot be defeated economically — he follows entirely different moral principles than we do. It can only be broken through political means.
7. A Blackgate player cannot insult a true WvW-er. Blackgate slanders are but badges of honor for a WvW opponent of Blackgate.
8. The more a WvW-er or a WvW guild opposes Blackgate, the more valuable it is. If someone is attacked by Blackgate, that is a sure sign of his virtue. He who is not persecuted by Blackgate, or who is praised by them, is useless and dangerous.
9. The Blackgate player evaluates WvW questions from a Blackgate standpoint. As a result, the opposite of what he says must be true.
10. One must either affirm or reject anti-Blackgatism. He who defends Blackgate harms his own server. One can only be a Blackgate lackey or a Blackgate opponent. Opposing Blackgate is a matter of personal hygiene.

These principles give the anti-Blackgate movement a chance of success. Only such a movement will be taken seriously by Blackgate, only such a movement will be feared by them.

The fact that he shouts and complains about such a movement therefore is only a sign that it is right. We are therefore delighted that we are constantly attacked by Blackgate players on the forums. They may shout about terror. We answer with Mussolini’s familiar words: “Terror? Never! It is social hygiene. We take these individuals out of circulation just as a doctor does to a bacterium."

drcraig.9403:

Honest John.4673:

drcraig.9403:

MadBomber.3719:

drcraig.9403:

Breaking up BG won’t work. Last time I checked BG had about 147K accounts.

how do you know how many accounts BG has? you work for anet??

also BG isnt that great all their NA guilds got farmed last night by one mag guild. KIS CL KnT XvX pretty much one pushed all night, only time they won a fight is when they fought 5 feet away from hills with mortars and constanly respawning back in

I have an account on GW2 Efficiency and it gives that information. If BG isn’t that great why are you whimpering like a little child right now? Hmm…..

Where on earth is that information? Cause I have an account too and that info isn’t exposed anywhere in the API.

You should see it on the page that gives your account value.

Uhhumm.. I don’t know how to put this but that 147k is the number of players who’ve published their API key to gw2efficiency to be taken into the leaderboard rankings. I’m on mag and see the same number.

drcraig.9403:

MadBomber.3719:

drcraig.9403:

Breaking up BG won’t work. Last time I checked BG had about 147K accounts.

how do you know how many accounts BG has? you work for anet??

also BG isnt that great all their NA guilds got farmed last night by one mag guild. KIS CL KnT XvX pretty much one pushed all night, only time they won a fight is when they fought 5 feet away from hills with mortars and constanly respawning back in

I have an account on GW2 Efficiency and it gives that information. If BG isn’t that great why are you whimpering like a little child right now? Hmm…..

Where on earth is that information? Cause I have an account too and that info isn’t exposed anywhere in the API.

Archon.6480:

Honest John.4673:

Malediktus.9250:

This video proves nothing other than Helseth being an excellent player multiple divisions above bronze.
To get out of a division you need to be significantly better than the average player in your division or they will pull you down.

Anyone who cares to check knows your winrate and knows you don’t deserve even bronze 3 with it. Sure you have thousands of games played, and with that the experience of thousands of games played, but most people can average a win rate of better that 46% man, I mean come on.

You’re the perfect example of what I’m talking about, you can pin-point all the flaws of other people yet you’ve never taken it upon yourself to improve your own gameplay. At some point, it falls on you.

Critical thinking is clearly not something you excel at. For all you know his current win rate could be 80%. Maybe he lost a lot of games when starting out. Maybe he frequently queues with friends who aren’t that good. You assume way to much.

A 46% winrate in Legendary might be great if he only looses to ESL players and beats everyone else. Winrate might be indicative of skill, but it’s just one factor.

My alternate account (Magnus) currently has a much better winrate, and has climbed higher than my main this season. Winrate means little.

He made his information public man, it’s not a guess. He has thousands of games played and still that bad of a winrate at some point the only person he has to look at is himself.

GreenNekoHaunt.8527:

Now I just recently came across some other ideas and/or questions whilst helping few people here on the forums.

Now.. I tried to approach finding the skill of a player via the top stats.. However the goal is to reach the 500 points..

• Killing an enemy gives 5 points
• Capturing a point and holding a point gives 1 point per 2 second

And each map has additional variation giving bonus points

• Svanir/Chieftain – 25
• Capricorn Bell – 25 50 75 100
• Enemy Lord – 150
• Orb Carry – 15 30
• Meditation on Stillness – double team points
• Meditation on Tranquility – Capture all points

Now.. just saying if you’d implement a counter that increases

* for each player that counts each kill (5 points)

• each kill participation (1-2 point) [having dealt or dealt a certain amount of damage to an enemy or dealt damage in enemy downstate]
• for each capture (1 point per 2 seconds until attacked)
• for each capture participation (1 point per 4 seconds until attacked) [participation as in fighting enemies near the point and it’s captured afterwards in like 5-8 seconds]
• or for doing a map objective (respective amount of points it would give)
• or for participating in a map objective (half of the respective amount of points it would give) [participation as in fighting enemies near the objective and it’s captured afterwards in like 5-8 seconds or dealing damage to the objective]

Shouldn’t something like or similar to this actually work? What do you think?

There are still too many intangibles. You’re right in that the only goal that matters it to win. That’s the only thing in the end that matters.

What if you’re the reason a teammate capped a point yet you were never there? Say you were holding off a bunker on his way between points while your team mate capped. How are you going to compute that? What if you CC’d a thief about to steal Chieftain at 2% but you never did a point of damage to the beast? How would you even write the code for that?

The thing is, there are so many scenarios and so many minor plays throughout the match that it’s impossible to calculate them. It’s almost endless. Theses are all subjective human decisions that don’t present themselves in an easily definable way that you can put in a box and build metrics around. You have 10 different humans making decision after decision, one right after the other for up to 15 straight minutes. No computer code is going to be able to calculate if and how each one was the right one or not.

Winning isn’t everything, it’s the only thing. In the end the sum of your decisions is going to be what factored into that win or loss. That team objective. That’s what we’re rating against. Not individual player skill by itself but individual player skill that contributes to the team objective. Like it or not, I don’t care how much individual talent you posses if it does not consistently win me games. Cause if you don’t, what’s the point?

In a team game the only way to kitten someone’s skill towards the team objective is to consider the team objective only. Any auxiliary measurements (such as kills, damage done, etc.) all have the problem that they can be exploited thereby compromising the team objective and hence the spirit of the game.

It’d be nice to have some word from ANet on whether or not they’ve updated their implementation of glicko2 to the latest version and on their thoughts if the TrueSkill approach would be worth it to implement. Although I doubt it’d satisfy the complainers since the two algorithms update similarly and they’ll just keep repeating “Rate by individual player skill!”. They seem to think it’s all about top stats.

tyler durdan.6039:

All:

I think what I am more referring to is that the current rating system (be it based on Elo or not) has a ton of statistical analysis that could go into it to make it more unique and versatile. Now, I am still unsure on what they are putting into the model, but I am always letting my colleagues/employees know at my work with any modeling, “Garbage in equals garbage out.” I am not saying it is garbage, but what I am saying is that if you do not account for the right parameters in the correct proportions going in, this can become little to wildly inaccurate and possibly change your results to an incorrect solution.

I am sure that the developers and workers of Anet are enjoying their holidays and time off right now. I do want to thank them for developing things over time to make things better. I think a lot of people give them a lot of hard time when in the background they are probably hard at work trying to make this more “fair” for everyone. In the end, I am more curious as to what they did and thought that if they wanted I would give them some input from an engineer/statistician train of thought. That’s all.

Happy Holiday’s

If you read up on the glicko2 algorithm you’ll see it adjusts on wins and losses and against who (team mmr) you won/lost against. If you try to start taking into account many more variables you start trashing occam’s razor (which I’m sure you are familiar with). Indeed, the pvp programmers have admitted to tinkering around with other variables over the 4 years since release and have found that sometimes less is more.

1.) They were always using elo (it’s actually Glicko2) for your mmr. If you’re a new player to ranked it starts at 1200. If you start playing ranked this season it starts out as your old mmr averaged with 1200 before placements (they hard reset deviation and volatility). Only in the previous seasons was matchmaking also constrained to a pip range plus your mmr (no longer the case this season)

2.) The 13-0 people are pro-league player alt accounts who’ve used math manipulation to get there. That’s another discussion in and of itself

3.) Sounds like that would cause rating inflation in the end.

Make of it what you will :^)

(none of it necessarily means anything btw either, only winning the game means anything)

What on earth are you talking about?

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318:

Honest John.4673:

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318:

Honest John.4673:

You’re right Xanctus, it doesn’t scale linearly. It scales gaussian-ly.

Hmm. U talking about the distribution of players in these season?

The distribution of players is by skill rating, so yeah

aight.

So what do u think of me saying the average player not bieng well rounded enough to carry all bad matches but some?

Well by definition the average player would be around 1000- 1200 Mmr which is High Bronze to Low Silver…

Ah yeah that makes sense. 1000 to 1200 is high bronze to mid silver.

Then it would make sense tough for said averages to have trouble carrying bad teams at times. Not saying that elo hell is a fact but I can understand part of thier pain.

It’s very painful to start to get better at the game. You have to have a good attitude about it. So much of this game is too forgiving, once you realize how it’s all on you to improve it may seem hard at first. But keep at it, unless you either have a learning disability (doubtful) or are physically disabled (meaning super slow reaction time) you’ll get there eventually, maybe even faster than you think.

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318:

Honest John.4673:

You’re right Xanctus, it doesn’t scale linearly. It scales gaussian-ly.

Hmm. U talking about the distribution of players in these season?

The distribution of players is by skill rating, so yeah

Lordrosicky.5813:

If you are at bronze or silver and cant carry out of that mmr then you completely suck.

People are deluded and see mistakes in everything other people did whilst not seeing their own errors.

A hard mmr reset would be a total disaster.

LOL! You don’t understaaaand man! ONLY the best players in the game can carry in bronze. Literally anyone else and it’s impossible. Anyone other than Helseth (or whoever else does it) and it destroys the narrative :^)

You’re right Xanctus, it doesn’t scale linearly. It scales gaussian-ly.

Malediktus.9250:

This video proves nothing other than Helseth being an excellent player multiple divisions above bronze.
To get out of a division you need to be significantly better than the average player in your division or they will pull you down. In bronze and silver people always find ways to throw and it is just frustrating to play with people who seem to have 10x less experience than you. Warriors that camp on close all day. People who wipe in mid before you finshed capping close. People who think killing the enemy lord is instant win etc.
I do not think the ELO system is working well for people who are in the middle spectrum of the skill ranking. If I am worth being in silver 3, then a lot of people I have in my team deserve to be bronze.

Anyone who cares to check knows your winrate and knows you don’t deserve even bronze 3 with it. Sure you have thousands of games played, and with that the experience of thousands of games played, but most people can average a win rate of better that 46% man, I mean come on.

You’re the perfect example of what I’m talking about, you can pin-point all the flaws of other people yet you’ve never taken it upon yourself to improve your own gameplay. At some point, it falls on you.

Archon.6480:

Honest John.4673:

How about this guy? 3,800+ games played. Seems pretty experienced…. at losing. (data is real and taken from gw2pvp.de)

Yeah, you really should read more carefully. I said that “ranked games won” should be the metric. Not total games played. There is a significant difference.

They still don’t deserve it though. If you won 1600 ranked games, great, still doesn’t mean you’re good or deserve to be seeded higher esp. if your losses are much much higher. That person already has a very low MMR to begin with.

If you’re worried about seeding they already did it in a way with the soft reset. If you were a very good player your mmr before placements started off at (old mmr+1200)/2 meaning the much better players already started off higher and the lower ones, even if they had thousands of games started off lower (as to not get completely crushed in placements). Your solution would place them much higher than they belong.

Divine.3279:

Pssssssst, this is clearly a troll thread. Take yer food and get it away from the troll!

I’ll chalk it up to Poe’s Law.

hackks.3687:

My “League” Experience so far has been to get kittened in my placement matches and dropped into the bottom of Bronze, only to climb basically all the way out and up to Gold, only to get pegged back by another 100 rating for not playing for a week… ???

What the kitten is that? Do you not want me to succeed at this? It’s hard enough to get rating separation from the people who are detrimental to your team’s outcome, why do you keep pegging me back, ANet?

What if I place well then play a good 25 matches to start the season and am sitting comfortably in the leader boards? What’s stopping me from not playing the rest of the season at all? This is just a simple way to prevent people from sitting in the leader boards and never playing again and to encourage semi-regular play, not used to emulate rust (there are other variables for that).

And are you blind? It still uses your ORIGINAL RATING for match making, how many times do you need to read that? If you’re having bad matches I’d start looking at recordings of your own gameplay to see where you went wrong since the only thing you have control over is the improvement of yourself. That is, unless, you actually think you cannot improve anymore.

How about this guy? 3,800+ games played. Seems pretty experienced…. at losing. (data is real and taken from gw2pvp.de)

Archon.6480:

Spoichiche.1290:

Improving accuracy by adding a completely irrelevant factor into the equation?

Next time you go on an interview. Tell them experience is completely irrelevant. Heck, why not try out for captain of the nearest professional football team. Tell them experience is irrelevant, when they ask why they should consider you.

Don’t want to be mean, but you just won the worst suggestion of the week award, and there’s some serious competitors for that award.

No offense taken. I think you just won it. I mean look at the top 10 leaderboard. You think maybe there is a problem with the metrics that determined 1st and 2nd place?

Wow, look at this guy he has thousands of games that means he has a lot of experience. I sure want him on my team:

You’re still matched up against gold players, it uses that same mmr you’re just not going to show on the leaderboard

There are people who’ve played thousands of games and are still terrible. I’ve met them. They come on here to post how they’re vets and don’t deserve to be in bronze. Sure with skill comes experience but it’s not necessarily true the other way around.

fokitten.2749:

Gretzel.6790:

This is what happens when a new season starts. Give it time and things will go back to normal.

The season is almost over dude. Where have you been?

How can you be so misinformed/willfully ignorant? It literally says on the pvp panel in game that the season is from December 13, 2016 – February 6, 2017. The halfway point between that is on January 9th.

We’re 31.81% of the way through the season as of right now with 68.18% of the way to go….

The first step is admittance. I see a lot of people admitting they’re not the best but that’s where they stop and start blaming everyone and everything but themselves. But if you claim not to be the best doesn’t this… by definition this mean you have room to improve? And your team mates/the system/what ever else aren’t the ones barring you from doing the improving. The onus is on you.

Essence Snow.3194:

NeXeD.3042:

Essence Snow.3194:

To me the heart of the issue is the 10 game placement system. It simply isn’t enough to even semi-accurately place players. This leads to players of unequal skill levels being paired fairly regularly. For the higher tiers, where the player numbers are less, this should resolve itself in a decent amount of time. Unfortunately in lower tiers, there are enough incoming players to keep this an issue.

Everything else seems to be relatively on par for the usual.

which is why a soft reset was done. The MM will get better when the people who grinded the kitten out of previous seasons to reach divisions they did not belong in get bumped down and it will happen Some of them will attempt to only play one or two games a day to keep their rating but it wont last forever. Its those same people that seem to hate the new system because you can lose more points for a loss than you gain for a win.

This will even out and people need to stop freaking the kitten out because they arent in the division they thought they should be in….. 99% of the players in this game are terrible at self skill evals.

If your owning everyone you will move up, if everyone is owning you, you will move down.

There are outliers on both sides and you will get some bad games deal with it.

Also to everyone that reads these forums please remember that the complaints are the Vocal Minority no need to panic for every person posting here about how they should be legendary but are bronze theres 20 people perfectly content to have fun PLAYING A GAME

Just out of curiosity…did you read the part where I said it will sort itself at higher tiers due to number of players, but won’t at lower tiers due to constant influx of players?

I gave logic to back up what I said. I never said anything about myself not being placed accurately.

Hopefully as the season goes on the influx of players will dwindle. The ascended farmers will get their stuff. The pve players who had their interest sparked will either leave or try to play to win (i.e. becoming pvp players which is the best option/intended effect), the bads will realize they’ll never improve beyond their level, blame the system then leave.

Maybe you will see a near constant influx though all the way through to the end of the season, but only for the middle of the pack which is the largest section so statistically speaking, you have less of a chance of meeting new players to ranked if you’re in the largest bracket.

NeXeD.3042:

so i won a few games and the i lost a few games but i think i should have won them so i should get points because am good player and enemy bad player i know they win but i win so i win because im good player so anet make me legendary because they bad players and i good player so i am good at this while they are bad

This pretty much.

You keep using the arithmetic average of your team’s mmr. ANet has stated they use the geometric average. You won’t see a difference most of the time unless you have wildly different ranges, for instance in one of your examples:

Arithmetic average: (1367,1363,1199,1130,904) = 1192.6

Geometric average: (1367,1363,1199,1130,904) = 1179.4

Just something to keep in mind.

Chapell.1346:

Can someone please show Honest John.4673 his/her MMR timeline cos rumour say it is changing upon how you perform during matches (unless change w/o prior notice) i’m quite intrigue tbh.

It’s 1705 if you must know. And yes it does change going up or down on a win or loss respectively. If you want to learn more about it I recommend doing more research on Glicko2.

Chapell.1346:

I don’t even know what MMR is or does not even know it existed, since they introduce this league crap and copy paste other games system that leads the market all goes downhill. It should be I hereby to challenge you/your team or guild with other/few of my trusted companion on my own choosing and in return will you accept? as much as i care about my genre; oh well lets hope and put our fate in this system of theirs that other mainstream games bring them into market (not me).

It’s been in the game since its inception it’s just been hidden all this time. You’re basically admitting your ignorance about what it does though, which doesn’t really help your argument or the arguments of others that it leads to games going downhill.

sephiroth.4217:

I believe most who say they are being matched with people less skilled because if they notice such a huge skill difference then it strait away by logic’s sake means that they are a better player than the ones they are matched with, otherwise they wouldn’t notice[

What you’re missing here is the simple fact that someone can recognize bad play in others and not themselves. It’s a perfectly reasonable option that some guy can play 5000 games and still be a slightly below average player, yet he never records his games and tries to improve himself he can see all the newbie mistakes others make and can recognize when someone does something wrong that doesn’t …. make him a better player though.

Every time I think I did literally everything I could to win a game and thought “You know, there’s no other reason we lost but because of all the mistakes my bad teammates make” and I then go and look at the recording of the entire match to prove myself I go “Nope, shouldn’t have made that rotation, nope should’ve been in more matchups with that one teammate, shoulda recognized that earlier” I see all my mistakes.

Some people will never do the things that can make you a better player (like recording matches and reviewing them) and yet they can still play thousands of games and gain a lot of experience in recognizing what not to do, doesn’t mean they don’t do those things to without realizing it.

Being bad yourself without realizing it is a perfectly logical outcome as well.

It seems to be bugged at the lower ratings, don’t know what’s causing it. I’ve seen instances of people with ~1660 rating appearing at the bottom few spots for a few minutes, and people on my friends list not showing up despite being higher than the lowest ratings.

Lord Hammer Hand.4815:

Honest John.4673:

Off hours on NA seem to have barely anyone queuing. If they restricted the pip range to +-100 range I bet I could tell someone at home to turn on my computer, fire up gw start queuing and I’d still be in queue by the time I get home from work. They’d just have to up the max queue wait from 2 hours :^)

yes its during off peak hrs 9am pst /11am est. my Q times is around 4 mins. you saying that it will be 2 hrs long is just being absurd.

An exaggeration to be sure, but 2 hour long queues are not unheard of. If we wanted the mmr range to be reduced to be strictly around our level +-25mmr we’d be seeing much longer queues though.

Vicky.4563:

So what are people’s excuses for Leeto then? Didn’t he start out in like bronze or something and clawed his way up to gold running some non-meta ax necro solo? You guys are going to start saying Leeto is a world champion pro player?

Or Marvin? Heard he got seeded into silver or something and still played his way out.

Olrun got placed sub 1500 too if I recall correctly.

mrauls.6519:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

…they should show all players Mmr and the average of each team Mmr, because Visibility should be a priority to ensure the system functions properly

ANet kept our MMR a secret for 4 years… I hope they stop trying to hide things

When they said they would show a clear measure of skill I knew they had to mean making our MMR finally visible. They painted themselves into a corner with that one. It is a big first step for a company as carebeary as anet though. It was always “muh toxicity!” as if it’d make it worse. Well, I for one haven’t seen people belittled for their MMR (you can add to friends) or heard of it here yet. The only thing I’ve seen people complaining about with regards to mmr is that they placed lower than expected and it must be the system keeping them down. Seeing team mmr on the scoreboard is the next logical step, even if it’s at the end of the match, after that it’d be individual.

Off hours on NA seem to have barely anyone queuing. If they restricted the pip range to +-100 range I bet I could tell someone at home to turn on my computer, fire up gw start queuing and I’d still be in queue by the time I get home from work. They’d just have to up the max queue wait from 2 hours :^)

Soothsayer.9206:

Occam’s Razor – all for that – start at zero every season, wins and losses only so you have to earn what you have; doesn’t get any simpler than that. although that would be ideal, people don’t want to have to play with “subpar” teammates (which leaves little to no room for growth in the sPvP community).

So months of bad matches for everyone to get where they’d end up normally? The beauty of the system is that it’s self-correcting.

Remove duo-queue and average out your season ending rating with the season average and watch the people who abused team-queues previously and duos during the season drop to where they belong, no need for everyone starting at the middle.

Shadowstep.6049:

Honest John.4673:

Shadowstep.6049:

DaShi.1368:

But doesn’t this rest on the assumption that divisions accurately reflect player performance? If matches get progressively more difficult as you move up divisions, then aren’t they working as intended?

as said before, given current system gold player would never get out of silver if he plays solo; he has to be at least plat skill wise to move up

If a gold player can’t get out of silver then he’s…. not a gold player, sorry. He’s a silver player. By definition of him staying in silver.

More illusory superiority. But what would you expect from people who’ve been told they’re great and special their whole lives despite them really being a whole lot of mediocre? That’s the type of player ANet hopes to attract I guess.

You really don’t understand how the system currently works.

There have been instances this season where I’ve seen questionable matchmaking and ANet has had problems with it in the past. But there is nothing inherently wrong with using the Glicko2 algorithm (which is separate) for this game. It’s been proven and works with other games over the years (and people still use the same tired “arguments” against it there too, surprise). I understand how it works and have tried to explain it to people who think about it backwards to no avail, this is coming from someone who thought about it backwards for a while till I really read into it. But if you’re still unconvinced then go ahead and write your own algorithm to rate players with basing it off of “individual skill” whatever that means. Clearly Win/Loss is not a good enough metric and we should take into account the innumerable variables it takes to be called a skilled player. Throw Occam’s Razor out the window, nothing could go wrong there.

Yes and yes.

/15char

Shadowstep.6049:

DaShi.1368:

But doesn’t this rest on the assumption that divisions accurately reflect player performance? If matches get progressively more difficult as you move up divisions, then aren’t they working as intended?

as said before, given current system gold player would never get out of silver if he plays solo; he has to be at least plat skill wise to move up

If a gold player can’t get out of silver then he’s…. not a gold player, sorry. He’s a silver player. By definition of him staying in silver.

More illusory superiority. But what would you expect from people who’ve been told they’re great and special their whole lives despite them really being a whole lot of mediocre? That’s the type of player ANet hopes to attract I guess.

Soothsayer.9206:

what does this prove? only that an experienced player on an alt account can take advantage of new/inexperienced players, and nothing more. although i do have a question about something i saw between 4:55-4:59 – how does helseth 1)phantasmal warlock, 2)cry of frustration, 3)phase retreat and end up with 3 clones (indicator says he has 3)? otherwise, all i see is an experienced player on an alt account trolling inexperienced players, which proves that people who know how to play can take advantage of people who don’t at lower levels. imho, nothing of value to see here.

Um, the fact that if you’re in a division below your skill level you can push out of it? A couple here, and a running theme lately, has been that once people realized their skill level was bronze/silver they couldn’t come to terms with it when before they thought they were god’s gift to pvp, vets with thousands of games played so they started to blame everyone else and the system. Instances like these proves the system works as intended and that if you are infact the best player out of the 10 in the match you’ll go up.

It’s not ELO hell, it’s not RNG, it’s not bad teammates holding you down. After all, there are4 spots on your team not filled by you and 5 on the other, from the start if you’re the best out of the 10, the odds are already in your favor as there are less spots for the “bad” players to fill on your team.

sephiroth.4217:

Honest John.4673:

sephiroth.4217:

Honest John.4673:

sephiroth.4217:

Honest John.4673:

sephiroth.4217:

1 player is forced to carry 4 other players into a division they themselves don’t belong in.

So there’s 4 slots for bad players to fall in vs 5 slots on the other team. If you’re as good as you say/think you are… the odds are already in your favor.

Do you always quote people out of context? No one is here to argue but you’re more than welcome to try.

People are just trying to tell Anet a few problems, so let them. If it doesn’t apply to you then GREAT! most people usually stay out of things that don’t apply to them.

(in every thread I’ve read this morning you have made countless aggressive attacks against other forum members, how do you not get infracted for it when I get infracted by using a common term such as headless chooks?)

I keep it civil, never use any word that can get turned into kitten (as I hate that attempt at censorship).

Maybe people who aren’t that smart need to be told that, especially if they think they are and others are stupid.

If players want to complain about stupid things I guess we can let them but not without first telling them why they’re stupid to complain about.

There’s two other players on this forum who are so pants-on-head, mind-numbingly anti-intellectual about simple math, averages, and placement systems that it makes me drop my jaw in amazement. But it looks like you don’t care what they say since it makes you feel better to begin with.

This is the exact aggressiveness I was referring too. You don’t need to spout “But it looks like you don’t care what they say since it makes you feel better to begin with" or “If players want to complain about stupid things I guess we can let them but not without first telling them why they’re stupid” or some other passive aggressiveness nonsense at every poster you encounter that has a different opinion to you. You are you’re own person with your own perspectives just like the rest of us but yet you don’t seem to respect that and not only do you not respect it but you argue peoples own opinion and then insult them for not sharing yours.

Just because you’re not swearing doesn’t mean you’re not being civil, if you lived in Australia like I do you would know every second word is essentially a kitten but yet no one is ever offended.

I looked at your post history, you started posting all of this angry stuff about 16 hours ago but before that it was 5 days and you were helping forum members so all I’m going to say is hey, I get it, I’ve had bad days too if not terrible.

Hey, I’ve been doing pretty good lately actually, not having a bad day/days. You’re the one who thought I needed to be infracted because my posts don’t make people feel good about themselves. Maybe I just don’t like people making excuses for themselves, or sophomoric arguments against proven mathematical systems. It’s like everyone here is losing sight of the forest for the trees.

There you go again, maybe you’re hungry?

I’ve accepted the fact that I’m mean and a jerk. I don’t try and hide it, just embrace it.

sephiroth.4217:

Honest John.4673:

sephiroth.4217:

Honest John.4673:

sephiroth.4217:

1 player is forced to carry 4 other players into a division they themselves don’t belong in.

So there’s 4 slots for bad players to fall in vs 5 slots on the other team. If you’re as good as you say/think you are… the odds are already in your favor.

Do you always quote people out of context? No one is here to argue but you’re more than welcome to try.

People are just trying to tell Anet a few problems, so let them. If it doesn’t apply to you then GREAT! most people usually stay out of things that don’t apply to them.

(in every thread I’ve read this morning you have made countless aggressive attacks against other forum members, how do you not get infracted for it when I get infracted by using a common term such as headless chooks?)

I keep it civil, never use any word that can get turned into kitten (as I hate that attempt at censorship).

Maybe people who aren’t that smart need to be told that, especially if they think they are and others are stupid.

If players want to complain about stupid things I guess we can let them but not without first telling them why they’re stupid to complain about.

There’s two other players on this forum who are so pants-on-head, mind-numbingly anti-intellectual about simple math, averages, and placement systems that it makes me drop my jaw in amazement. But it looks like you don’t care what they say since it makes you feel better to begin with.

This is the exact aggressiveness I was referring too. You don’t need to spout “But it looks like you don’t care what they say since it makes you feel better to begin with" or “If players want to complain about stupid things I guess we can let them but not without first telling them why they’re stupid” or some other passive aggressiveness nonsense at every poster you encounter that has a different opinion to you. You are you’re own person with your own perspectives just like the rest of us but yet you don’t seem to respect that and not only do you not respect it but you argue peoples own opinion and then insult them for not sharing yours.

Just because you’re not swearing doesn’t mean you’re not being civil, if you lived in Australia like I do you would know every second word is essentially a kitten but yet no one is ever offended.

I looked at your post history, you started posting all of this angry stuff about 16 hours ago but before that it was 5 days and you were helping forum members so all I’m going to say is hey, I get it, I’ve had bad days too if not terrible.

Hey, I’ve been doing pretty good lately actually, not having a bad day/days. You’re the one who thought I needed to be infracted because my posts don’t make people feel good about themselves. Maybe I just don’t like people making excuses for themselves, or sophomoric arguments against proven mathematical systems. It’s like everyone here is losing sight of the forest for the trees.

ibchillin.7805:

Honest John.4673:

ibchillin.7805:

Honest John.4673:

ibchillin.7805:

Lexander.4579:

there’s just one reason players are unhappy with pvp: they think they belong to higher rank than what they actually deserve

Ignorant statement to the max here. You’re either a troll or you really are trying to see how far your nose goes up kittenNet’s kitten. The system is flawed; perhaps not to the extent some are saying, but there are MASSIVE flaws in it.

I’ve seen Gold 2 players who are absolutely clueless. Is this just them trolling who freaking knows. However, it’s pathetic how stupid some of them “pvpers” actually are. They have no map awareness at all, they can’t even focus targets. Some of this has to be actual trolls, perhaps even “pro” players taking a break just to kitten around. Some could even be Anet or those close to them. When you are winning in a match and then watch as everything falls about and the players just start giving away control points, and grouping all on home etc it does make you wonder.

We all know the “pros” make multiple accounts to keep themselves at the top. Some do this and admit they do to troll the lower ranking ones. We all know Anet doesn’t want their pride and joy “pro” players actually losing to other players because it’ll make them look like kittenes. Is it any wonder why they took out allowing the top teams to try and compete to get into the pro level? The pro teams are on Anet’s payroll, that money they “win” just gets funneled back into the system. It’s an elitist club and they don’t want to lose any power.

Should just call it Guild Boxing 2, it’s as corrupt as that industry was when Don King led the charge. Complete BS, so either play the grind or don’t, it’s rigged.

Oh wow another cute little anecdotal example! ^.^ I didn’t know this happened every single time! And only to you too at that.

Guess what though… if that guy keeps losing guess where he’ll go. That’s right.

Down.

Honestly John go suck on Anet’s kitten some more. If you really want to be on Anet’s payroll you should apply for a job. The fanboys love to twist words around, I swear it’s pathetic, I never once said “it’s only happening to me” You kittening jack kitten piece of kitten.

I’m not defending ANet. You’re attacking math and statistics. Next thing I know you’re gonna be telling me evolution doesn’t exist and the Earth is 6,000 years old. Not a smart one, are you? Figured.

I’m attacking math and stats that are obviously broken. You’re defending a company that chooses to do nothing about it except maybe give 2 changes to a class over 2 months. Personally attacking me saying I’m a dumb kitten isn’t going to hide the fact your nose is shoved so far up Anet’s buttocks. If I want anymore kitten out of younext time I’ll just shake your head.

PS : We all know the Earth is flat and only 2016 years old.

So you respond with more personal insults? I thought you didn’t like that :^)

Glicko2 isn’t exclusive to ANet. It’s in used for matchmaking/skill rating in literally every competitive game ever. And yes it’s been adapted to teams, and no it doesn’t matter too much if the team is different every match.

Could classes be balanced better? Yes. Could pro players not make alts and troll/pay people to dc? Yes. Could the pool of players be larger so you’re not playing imbalanced matches? Yes. But none of the blame for any of that goes directly on the algorithm.

The good players will eventually get better ratings, the bad ones worse. I’ve seen it on my friends list. Others have seen it as well. It’s not rigged, you’re just losing.

sephiroth.4217:

Honest John.4673:

sephiroth.4217:

1 player is forced to carry 4 other players into a division they themselves don’t belong in.

So there’s 4 slots for bad players to fall in vs 5 slots on the other team. If you’re as good as you say/think you are… the odds are already in your favor.

Do you always quote people out of context? No one is here to argue but you’re more than welcome to try.

People are just trying to tell Anet a few problems, so let them. If it doesn’t apply to you then GREAT! most people usually stay out of things that don’t apply to them.

(in every thread I’ve read this morning you have made countless aggressive attacks against other forum members, how do you not get infracted for it when I get infracted by using a common term such as headless chooks?)

I keep it civil, never use any word that can get turned into kitten (as I hate that attempt at censorship).

Maybe people who aren’t that smart need to be told that, especially if they think they are and others are stupid.

If players want to complain about stupid things I guess we can let them but not without first telling them why they’re stupid to complain about.

There’s two other players on this forum who are so pants-on-head, mind-numbingly anti-intellectual about simple math, averages, and placement systems that it makes me drop my jaw in amazement. But it looks like you don’t care what they say since it makes you feel better to begin with.

sephiroth.4217:

1 player is forced to carry 4 other players into a division they themselves don’t belong in.

So there’s 4 slots for bad players to fall in vs 5 slots on the other team. If you’re as good as you say/think you are… the odds are already in your favor.

The illusory superiority of other people. Just today I was messing around on my silver alt and had a guy I recognized from seasons past trying to order every one around. He was playing S/F FA ele and wouldn’t shut up the entire match. We ended up winning the game (and by a large margin) but in whispers after he claimed he was, and these are his own words, “super talented” for beating up other silvers in his build and being legend all 4 previous seasons. Turns out he had an MMR in the low 1300s almost and 20 more losses than wins with over 400 matches already played this season.

People are bad and they don’t know it.

You’ll find these same people on here trolling/whining and complaining trying to dissect the mmr algorithm as to why it must be wrong and why the algorithm is the problem and not them.

megilandil.7506:

Honest John.4673:

megilandil.7506:

Honest John.4673:

Win/loss has no correlation on how good of a player you are. You heard it here first folks! This is the type of person you’ve attracted to your game Anet, are you proud?

another what are clueless of how the mm system for a ladder rank sistem should go.
a competitive ladder system works with you climbing defeating your “ladder companions” (not farming low ladders) until you are better than your “ladder companions” you will have an high win/loss ratio when you will be among your truly equals an fighting versus them your win/loss ratio will be of 50% AND YOU WILL BE IN YOUR TRUE POSITION IN THE LADDER.

The faults of this sistem is more clearly observed viewing the top ones, they had reached their positions and conserve and enormous win/loss ratio that is not correct for anyone having hit his site, in others ranks you cant observe this , you dont know if players are climbing or they reached theyr TRUE PLACE
3) the

I don’t think you understand how a bellcurve system works. Or what an outlier is.

bell curve is a statistical function of density distribution not a ranking system, forcing rankings to adjust a bell curve distribution if the thing ranked true distribution not is consistent to expected bell distribution is a bad system for ranking

Now I know for sure you really don’t know what a bell curve is. Of course it’s not a ranking system, and nothing’s being forced into one, that’s where thing’s naturally will fall, the majority of people are average, with very small numbers of really bad players and really good players who fall outside the norm and are not consistent with the rest of the distribution.

There are going to be players so bad they literally cannot win a game, and there’s going to be players so good they rarely lose a game, they don’t conform to the norm. Do you need to have a bell curve drawn out for you to see where these outliers lie?

Burn.5401:

I never admitted to knowing of a hard reset that’s happened before, I just assumed it did because of multiple people talking about it in the thread.

You admitted to not knowing if a thing happened. And from the previous sentence it heavily implies that you thought there was no hard reset. You have to realize what people are going to infer from your statements.

And now you’re assuming it did happen when you can check Evan’s post history to see where it says they did reset it. Don’t take my word for it.