Guild Wars 2

Feelings Aren’t Required [FEAR]

I’m more than a little biased though.

Saint.5647:

A lot of passive aggressiveness going on here. Why always the BG tears thing? I think this was started with the intent to discuss. If you start on with things like that, it’s difficult to have an actual discussion. If you fairly judge this tournament, it’s kind of messed up. Take a look at the breakdowns for awards. Doesn’t really matter much who places 1-3. Maybe even up to 4 and 5 as well.

The OP raises a good point that a lot of the competitive WvW play seems centered around positioning match-ups. From my perspective as a primarily PvE player, I do not enjoy zerging and do not have the PC for it. I do however enjoy havoc and scouting. I think you’ll find that match-ups like this are very dull and unenjoyable for a great deal of players (regardless of the side you are on).

You’ve got some people so heavily, emotionally invested in this stuff that they’re willing to create boring match-ups and really ruin a lot of the gameplay for either the rewards or just to ‘stick it to’ another server.

You make a good point; if you aren’t a hardcore WvW guy you probably find this very boring.

The thing is, all of us “hardcore WvW” types ENJOY this sort of thing. It’s FUN for us. We actively try to get any advantage we can, because for us winning is the goal. You can’t have both a hardcore WvW environment and empty zones/zergless havoc, because if you have enough players who want to WvW seriously then we’re going to group up because it’s the most efficient way to kill the enemy.

If you’re doing damage to a single target, no mater how much damage that happens to be, you still can’t compete with a strong AoE class. A zerg v. zerg fight involves AoEs getting target-capped. A target capped AoE will do far more damage than any single-target ability, and since zerg fights are about who can burn down the other guy more rapidly (while dealing with cc, movement, condi/removal, heals, etc) the overall dps of AoEs is greater than that of single target abilities.

To give you an idea of how disadvantaged rangers are, a staff/well necro has 7 ground-target AoE abilities available to them, all of which are pretty good.

If you get really good at sniping weak characters you can thin out the enemy a bit, but it will never do as much numerical damage as, for example, a staff/well necro. In addition, given the down-state mechanic getting a snipe-kill can take far more actual damage due to the possibility that you won’t be able to stomp.

Besides, if sniping worked then we would run killshot warriors instead of rangers because they have better burst dps. We don’t, because it doesn’t work. Having one or two focus the enemy commander can be nice against undisciplined forces, but it’s always better to have a shout warrior, well necro, etc.

So basically, as a ranger your role would be specialty and highly limited, and you’d be doing a job that other classes are simply better at. Other classes can stack as many as you want; If a zerg has 12-15 warriors, guardians, necros, or elementalists it’s not necessarily a bad thing, in fact it can be pretty good. 12-15 rangers is a wipe waiting to happen. For reference, this is assuming a standard 30-40 man zerg.

Finally, just to be clear, I’m not saying rangers are useless. I’m saying there is no way I know of to theorycraft them into a position superior to other classes in any role necessary to the success of a WvW zerg.

Dgins [LUN]

Tarnished Coast / SoR

thiagoperne.7340:

Sin.4130:

Don’t believe that there is any secret tactic to kill a thief. Look at thief videos he even doesn’t have to dodge your AoE. All you can do is to spam your skills and run/dodge like a blind man. By the way, this the stupidest thing I’ve ever experienced in any game.

Bunker build at last have a chance to avoid framing thieves, anybody else have no chance to survive.

This is your 38th reply in here . I think everyone already understood that you can’t with thiefs, if tou keep posting over and over people will think that’s an obsession. Maybe if u spent the time u are on this thread in game, you would probably be able do deal with thiefs by now. Who knows.

Exactly.

If thieves are a problem for you in wvw then you are doing one of three things: 1.) You are being afk. 2.) You have some terribad spec. 3.) Your gearing is wrong.

I’m not going to tell you what a good spec or good gear is. I’ll give you a hint though; if a thief is anything more than an annoyance, you’re doing it wrong.

It might be different in spvp or something, I don’t care. This is the WvW forum.

Thieves are perhaps the most hilariously underpowered class for WvW combat. All they are good for is scouting and yak-sniping.

BUFF thieves, do not nerf them again.

I have been on Sanctum of Rall from day one. We have a core of several hundred players who have also been on SoR from day one. We have added some amazing guilds with skilled, friendly players. We have built a fantastic server community unlike anything I’ve seen in 12+ years of MMO experience.

We deserve the top spot. We have fought for it. We have faced every single bit of adversity that has been mentioned and more. We know what it’s like to be out-manned, out-coveraged, and out-played. We worked to improve our strategies, we made friends and got them to join us, and we galvanized our server towards WvW.

We faced all this adversity, and we won. No single guild is responsible, we are a community, we are a team, and while we aren’t perfect by a long shot, we are the new standard to beat.

So beat us, if you can. Don’t complain, don’t whine, don’t offer disrespect. It won’t get you anywhere. Think. Plan. Work… and hit us with something we’ve never seen before. Challenge us. Make us fight to keep our spot.

And either way, good luck, because if you can beat SoR then you can call yourselves the best. No excuse can make that happen, only victory.

-Jack

P.S. Respect to SF and Jed; tonight was an intense fight and y’all did an excellent job. Those are the kind of fights we log on and hope for.

Geikamir.6329:

robotempire.2451:

Zinwrath.2049:

szthesquid.9576:

The more skills are split the more people are pressured to stick with 1 game mode. I don’t want to have to re-learn my class to try a new game mode, or keep track of 3 different variations of each skill.

no offence but this sort of mentality just stinks of laziness.

Most people play video games as a form of leisure. The dude just doesn’t want to spend his leisure time that way. That’s not “laziness” that’s just called “having an opinion”.

Just because it’s his opinion doesn’t mean it’s not laziness. Complaining that you have to learn things to be most effective is most definitely lazy

Agreed. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but that does not mean they are entitled to have their opinion respected. The fact that a thought is an opinion has NOTHING to do with the validity of the opinion.

On point, NOTHING in Guild Wars 2 is difficult, aside from PvP-related activities. Sorry. Back in Everquest 1 you could spend an entire year leveling to max… PvP balance didn’t exist, and the game was incredibly fun. The level of a player was a form of social stratification.

Guild Wars 2 is a very relaxed mmo. VERY relaxed. It is easy. That is the draw for most players. Hardcore PvP’ers come because the spvp system is balanced and WvW is unlike anything else, but the game, as a whole, is very easy.

As such, “laziness” could either be seen as in-line with the game’s design, or, as I see it, as an excessive desire to have fun while doing, essentially, nothing.

PLEASE undo some of the spvp focused nerfs you’ve done. I hate to be so callous, but it seems like most of the nerfs were made to appease loud-mouthed carebear trolls who have no idea how to play. Good players have thought this game was relatively balanced from a month after release; further nerfs just tend to hamstring classes and make them less appealing.

With some exceptions, obviously. (such as stealth capping in wvw)

For example, the old pistol whip nerf on thieves can be undone, given the recent changes to B-venom, etc.

Dual.8953:

Cloud.7613:

The only people who are standing up for thiefs being so broken(maybe not due to class design, but by culling) are thieves themselves.

I don’t have a problem with thieves dps, their escape mechanism is powerful but it’s fine. Invisibility(as I said, due to the culling) is absolutely broken. You attack them for 6 seconds, they get out of invisibility, you see the projectiles, but they haven’t rendered yet, you finally see them, oh nice, fully healed, 6 seconds later, invis again, rinse and repeat. I’ll be honest, I have a thief alt and while playing it, I feel like I’m a skilled player, then like all other non-thief dedicated players realize, It’s the mechanism, not the player and I’m a scrub again. Y-eah no, I don’t need to l2p, my class isn’t broken though.

A lot of thieves defend their class because we keep getting suggested “fixes” and “nerfs” for our class from players who obviously know nothing about thieves and come up with the most ludicrous ideas of how to “fix” us.
Equivalent to suggesting things like “Ele’s shouldn’t be able to attunement swap in combat” or “Guardians shouldn’t have access to Protection, Aegis and Stability”

I agree.

I also think (I have full exotic geared Thief, Warrior, Mesmer, and Elementalist) that despite the fact that thieves can burst so hard, they are NOT overpowered.

My warrior, for example, can burst far harder with a rifle. Kill shot can crit as hard as backstab used to be able to crit, before the A-sig nerf. It’s 1500 range, not melee.

But it has been said that DPS is fine.

So what about stealth? Stealth isn’t broken. For a good player a thief who keeps stealthing is an annoyance, nothing more. The problem results from players who think they should be able to chase down and kill every other class. That’s a misguided “Leroy Jenkins” approach to combat, and should not factor into balancing.

Stealth is a survivability tool for thieves. Without it, the class cannot function. If you want damage to break stealth, you will need to make stealth more powerful (have stealth break combat, etc) which would require a complete reworking of the mechanic. If you want stealth to be more limited; it’s already extremely limited. Play a thief, because you obviously haven’t. If you think culling is the issue, then there’s no debate about thieves left to be had, for obvious reasons.

If you want to remove stealth from the game, you will need to increase thief survivability. Do you really want thieves to have, say, twice the endurance of every other class? How about toughness/vitality to match other classes? How about heals to match other classes? How about Ranged damage to match other classes?

If you think thieves are OP now, you have no idea what will happen if you balance them without stealth.

Thieves do not need a nerf. Other classes need buffs, but thieves do not need nerfs.

I would be very surprised if it was more than 80-100 people per server per map.

Foghladha.2506:

kuora.5402:

Obsidian.1328:

Heya Elrenia…well I would be remiss to my guild if I didn’t mention them. Besides, since you mentioned the meaningfulness of the server name I thought I should point out the guild that the name “Rall” came from:

Gaiscioch [GSCH]

It’s 5:00 now and clobberin’ time so I’m out…

…and HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!

Obsi

Haha I am fully aware of that guild, some really awesome people I know from there. Just didn’t mention them because they’re not a WvW guild.

For the record, GSCH was a RvR DAOC Guild, and RvR WAR Guild, and IS a GW2 WvW Guild. Just because we don’t come on TS in bulk doesn’t mean we don’t WvW. Over 80% of our families Activities logged are in the WvW lakes. The only reason we are playing Guild Wars 2 is for the WvW. So to say GSCH isn’t a WvW guild is quite silly. We just are more casual about it than most. We focus on Fun over being #1.

Aye, GSCH has a very strong WvW presence. Pretty much any zone, any time, and any group in WvW will have at least one or two GSCH members taking part. Our guilds definitely have a different philosophy (For us, we see being #1 as the most fun), but I would be remiss if I discounted your devotion to WvW.

All in All, if Sanctum of Rall could get a professionally-minded, strong Oceanic presence we would be a contender for first place NA. It would be wonderful to face SoS again; those matches really brought our server community together.

Cliques.3947:

Just out of curiosity, I’m wondering for just how many is GW2 their first MMO?

My first MMO was Everquest 1, back when the Velious Expansion was new.

As far as the members of Caedas, I don’t believe this is anyone’s first MMO. It’s an interesting question, though.

In terms of this matchup; last night was extremely intense. It was seriously some of the most fun I’ve had in this game, in BGBL. Kudos to everyone there; it was a hard fought, long battle by everyone.

I don’t see how any of this prevents you from enjoying or playing the game.

You can acquire a legendary weapon without playing the trading post. Playing the trading post is another way that some, extremely saavy players, who are a tiny minority, make enormous amounts of money. Without us/them many of the goods you put up on the trading post probably would not sell at all. It is by no means the only way to get certain items, with the possible exception of some of the charged-lodestone Mystic Forge items. However, that is a problem with the scarcity of charged lodestones , not the trading post.

You obviously aren’t being affected by any of this. Maybe you are being frustrated by the drop rate on some of the higher-end crafting materials… and I’m all for an increase in those (particularly charged lodestones) however you don’t even seem able to state a specific problem you want changed. Nobody is demanding that you go the extra mile, and all it will get you is the ability to avoid spending huge amounts of time in other areas of the game (Mainly farming for hours upon hours.).

It is the same as all arguments about the free-market; some people will never be comfortable with the fact that some have more than they do. So again I ask you; why do you care?

Rouven.7409:

Juxtapositronic.1405:

(…)
And don’t call this social justice. It’s a game. You are completely capable of making vast amounts of money. The fact that you don’t shouldn’t impact another player.
(…)
To hate another player’s preferences because you don’t share them makes no sense to me. How does another person’s success harm you?

The fact that you do shouldn’t impact another player.

I don’t hate anyone, but I do think the system is flawed. The question that Arena Net has to ask themselves again is … is it fun?

Another aspect would be the blog for legendary weapons, quote from here

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/my-legend-grows-forging-your-first-legendary-weapon/

“Legendary Weapons are the end result of an epic adventure in Guild Wars 2. You’ll travel all over, collecting items and amassing materials to build your Legendary Weapon.”

Legendary Weapons are the end result of epic transactions on the BLTC. You’ll flip items all over, collecting your tab and amassing gold to buy your Legendary Weapon.

Exaggeration? Yes. But perhaps there is a grain in there.

If a player finds an epic economic adventure to be fun, who are you to judge them? What does their effort have to do with your experience in the game?

If they go out and cash-shop their way to a legendary, does that matter to you?

Personally, I acquired my legendary “the hard way” because I found that to be satisfying. My legendary is not an achievement that puts me above other players in terms of gearing. My legendary is a cosmetic distinction that makes me feel like my character has reached a pinnacle of achievement. The impact on other players doesn’t exist.

You are not the one who determines what is fun for another person, you determine it for you. If you want to get a legendary by farming every single item that goes into it, good for you! But you need to understand that, while most people, including myself, agree with you, there are many who do not. They have just as much a right to enjoy the game as you do, and currently, both methods are in place.

I don’t care for forum trolls on either side. There’s no reason to stop being courteous and polite, even if the match gets nasty.

From Caedas on Sanctum of Rall I just want to offer a big shout-out to TC; you guys have definitely stepped up your game since the last time we faced you. Last night you brought some new tactics to the field and demonstrated a high degree of organization. It was extraordinarily frustrating to face you, and an absolute pleasure. Kudos for an awesome upcoming match.

As always, respect to Blackgate; you guys are, quite obviously, the server to beat in t2.

ITT:

Lots of players who don’t want to put in the brainpower complaining about those who do.

Some players track the prices of all major trade goods, from ectos and bloods to rares and precursors. Some players farm hard for a few months to get started, then think about what they will spend it on instead of blowing it on a new character.

You are 100% capable of getting top gear and never being “rich” in this game.

You are also 100% capable of being rich in this game, having top gear, and being a terrible player nobody wants to group with.

You are also 100% capable of being rich AND skilled in this game.

Choosing one or another is your own business. Some of us have an easier time making money that we do dominating in Spvp. Some of us have an easier time dominating in Spvp than we do making money. Some of us are insane no-lifes who spend way too much time and do it all

And don’t call this social justice. It’s a game. You are completely capable of making vast amounts of money. The fact that you don’t shouldn’t impact another player. Some players obviously exploit to get gold. Other players get lucky on drops. Most players who end up rich do it with hard work, dedication, patience, and a deep love for the economics of the game.

To hate another player’s preferences because you don’t share them makes no sense to me. How does another person’s success harm you?

Blrrgh.6908:

There is no question that Blackgate or SoR is capable of theoretically making it into T1.

If you look at Sea of Sorrows, and how they achieved success as a team, you can see that all the pieces of a single successful T1 server are in place in Tier 2.

Whether or not we have the wisdom or ability to create something larger out of them is up to us. I certainly did not expect to have everyone jump on a bandwagon at a first shout, but if there are like-minded people and guilds out there, I want them to know there is both the option and the potential for something amazing that exists in the T2 community as a whole, we just have to have the perspective to recognize it.

Agreed. SoR’s NA primetime combined with IoJ’s Oceanic presence would be a force to be reckoned with. Add in a nice sprinkle of Blackgates 24/7 presence and we’d have a juggernaut of a server, with powerful guilds constantly hitting all maps full force.

We’d also have queues a mile long, but we’d win.

You have to use a LOT of siege to cap out the map, but it is possible.

A player’s ability to counter a burst-thief is directly proportional to their skill with the game.

Thieves have many weaknesses and it takes an extremely skilled player to be devastating in massive WvW combat. That’s why most of them roam.. they aren’t good enough to fight in groups effectively.

Thieves are fine as they are. New players and those who don’t have much skill at pvp for whatever reason will always find them difficult. They will also get annihilated by HB warriors, Sniper warriors, Elementalists, and other high damage builds. The difference is that thieves are less brazen and therefore more annoying, so they get the attention.

If you really cannot figure out how to kill a thief just roll/respec to a bunker build in a class that’s made for it. 90% of thieves will leave you alone. We are opportunists, and a 3k+ armor target is simply not worth the effort most of the time. On my warrior and elementalist, which are both level 80 bunkers, I almost never get hit by thieves… more often on my ele than my warrior, but once they realize my ele is at full health and their initiative is at zero, they usually leave. If they stay, they end up dead.

Learn how to survive massive burst and thieves really aren’t that bad. If you cannot deal with being focus-fired then you will not be able to deal with a thief. That doesn’t meant the class is over-powered, it means you aren’t learning from your mistakes.

In other news, Thieves have been nerfed consistently since launch. I’d advise playing one; learning a class is the best way to defeat it.

IoJ has definitely stepped up their game.

However, you stand a very good chance of being knocked out of t2 this week or next. Oceanic/European guilds should strongly consider Sanctum of Rall. Despite being severely undermanned most of the time (we didn’t even have queues last reset night) we still manage to make Blackgate sweat.

Blackgate is a powerful server, to be sure, and IoJ is showing some organization… however SoR has a very strong community of dedicated players. Give us coverage and we’ll give you t1.

Now, if the main IoJ guilds would transfer to SoR… we’re talking dream-team level. We’d thrash Blackgate and be a very strong contender for the #1 spot in North America.

If you take 2 hours to do a jumping puzzle you’re doing it wrong. Experienced players can run it in under 7 minutes with no problem.

A bunch of us SoR folks were camping our JP for a good 3 hours earlier. In the end, IoJ and Blackgate just piled up and overwhelmed us. A nice gank-fest ensued, much frustration was had by all, and it was fun. The jumping puzzles, particularly the EB jumping puzzle, are designed for combat. If you don’t like it, don’t go there.

Warlord.9074:

I found this is another thread.

This is just getting annoying. I am from Isle of Janthir and there are MULTIPLE thiefs in Sanctum of Rall who are hacking to win. They will backstab you, and instantly (and I mean instantly) go back into stealth and repeat this hundreds of times, no matter how many people there, or no matter how many times they use it. idk if they are using the skill cancel to bug the cooldowns or what, but when they are able to take out entire camps in seconds, it needs to be fixed Since A-net doesn’t allow us to post screenshots or names, and there is no report for hacking there will be nothing done about this unless I post, and I’m sure nothing will be done here either.

omg lol

When someone says you’re hacking you know you’re playing well.

Warlord.9074:

Its not fair to lay the blame on an entire server for exploiting. However there is plenty enough blame to go around it seems. Its also not fair to blame 1 player or 1 guild when multiple players and other guilds are knowingly participating. Don’t try to scapegoat BlackGate.

Get every one of them banned. If you do that, then you’ll be redeemed. Like it or not, it IS guilt by association. On SoR we have active bounty against people who hack into places. It’s not perfect I’m sure, but we make sure to keep that kitten under control.

In other news, if you have footage of an SoR member glitching or hacking into something, please message me in game. I want them banned.

I had a lot of respect for Blackgate until I saw that. It’s disgusting.

For the record, thank you for capturing that vid. If they all get banned I’ll buy you a beer.. or something similar :>

I’m 100% full zerk, and I don’t have any problems.

Open-world PvE I run either D/D – Shortbow or S/P – Shortbow depending on the situation and my mood. All are fine, and clusterbomb can hit for a lot of damage if you use it correctly (Get the initial explosion to hit the same targets as submunition).

For Dungeons I usually run P/P actually. I know there’s a lot of talk about how terribad P/P is because of the combination of bleeds/burst dps and the lack of synergy, but on boss fights having the DPS of unload mixed with the survivability and mobility of range is fantastic.

Obviously I still need to pay attention, there’s no easy-mode, but if you pay attention, manage your dodges correctly, and utilize your combos (Shadow Refuge > 1, 3 Lifesteal combo can heal me back up to full) then you will find yourself a valuable member of any group.

The Thief is a high risk/reward class. If we get caught we can die very quickly, but if we play smart we can do freakishly huge amounts of damage, support group members, and rarely die.

Oh, and my spec is DA/CS/Trick.

Agreed. It’s really frustrating to drop 10-15 golems only to find one or two occupied by individuals you do not know. Fortunately, SoR has an awesome population and the griefing is extremely limited, but it does happen.

It’s not game-breaking, but it sure would be nice to have owners be able to kick non-owners out of their golems.

If you want to “ninja” a keep that doesn’t mean you take it while nobody is there to defend; it means you take it while the defenders are distracted so they don’t even notice.

SoS “ninja’d” our Garrison once, even though we had an active presence inside. How? They distracted us, got our forces focused on Bay and seized a golden opportunity. They out-maneuvered and out-played us.

We didn’t let it happen again, at least not on my watch, but it was frustrating and deserved. If you want to take a keep that has no defenders then great! But if they suddenly appear and you die don’t complain on the forums; use the time to figure out what happened, how it happened, and how you can counteract it.

If your server has random pugs following around random commanders then you have far more problems than you realize. Fix your server first, please.

A commander tag is an icon on the map, nothing more. They are expensive, but they are perfectly balanced. Why? Because they are used by guilds to provide our members with a point of reference. They attract zergs, but that’s not the primary function. The primary function is to serve as an organizational tool for guilds.

Caedas has many commander’s compendiums, and we use them. Their primary purpose is to inform our guild members where we are located, and to inform other guilds where we are located. If you plan on using one with the mindset of “If I buy this, people will follow me” then you’re going to be very disappointed.

Intelligent people need more than a shiny blue speck on the map to earn their respect.

Also, successful generals are never elected. An election process would cause nothing but drama and failure.

If you can’t take a keep with 10 defenders you don’t deserve to have the keep. Sorry.

Mara is correct.

I have been on Sanctum of Rall since I started playing. We have gotten stomped plenty, but through sheer determination our server has managed to win consistently. This has attracted some guilds, of course, but it has also served to focus our community on WvW.

We used to get night-capped hard, but we have fixed that.

We used to roam around as a mindless zerg, but we have fixed that.

We even had a few guilds leave. Good riddance.

The guild leadership on our server, combined with generally good will and cooperation has given us a powerful WvW force. Since Fort Aspenwood stomped us flat we have turned around, and right now we are reaping many benefits of that. Those benefits range from server transfers to a generally happier population.

We have also had the privilege of facing some extremely competent servers. Darkhaven, NSP, and Yak’s bend come to mind but there are others. We have prevailed consistently over the last three weeks, despite several close calls. This has done nothing but add to our already enthusiastic community.

A happier server population, a more confident server population, is always better than a frustrated, demoralized server population. I think that’s why there are so many blowouts and so few close matches.

It’s also interesting that SoR matches have been very close. Our server does not give up, even when we’re down 30,000 points in the first day :p

P.S. To those of you who wonder why some thiefs can turn “invulnerable” when they get low, here’s how it’s done: I run a 0/0/10/30/30 build and SoM for healing. When I hit dagger storm (I use it as a defensive cd) in a large group I can regenerate health VERY rapidly. If I’m being dps’d hard my health will stay around 5k, giving the illusion of “invulnerability” which is reinforce by dodging and generally high endurance regeneration. It isn’t a cheat, it’s just a very specialized, very defense-oriented build.

Gearing is important; toughness, healing power, and condition damage are the primary stats you need. I find glass cannon builds to be fun, but rather bad for PvP combat. That’s just my preference, though, and I’m sure there are plenty of very skilled glass cannons out there.