If Retaliation builds REALLY were the intended target, then work on Retaliation.
There is NO reason for the Symbol of Wrath cooldown to be THAT high. The nerf to the Greatsword has put a huge dent in the build variety and versatility it had previously, as well as hitting the damage and AoE ability of the weapon by more than any reasonable amount. On top of that, many symbol-boosting traits simply do NOT benefit the Greatsword like they used to, and this is a huge problem considering the Greatsword has a symbol in it’s skillset, and that the main trait line that boosts offensive symbol usage (Zeal) is tied to/provides traits to encourage Greatsword usage!
If the Symbol giving Retaliation is the problem, then simply make it give Fury or Might instead! I cannot believe that ArenaNet went through with this change without considering any of the ramifications it would have on other builds involving the Greatsword.
Your post completely nails many of the fundamental issues with this change. It goes way beyond just the skill arrangement people. This change really hurts all symbol builds with the GS and GS diversity in general. Go Zeal line for offensive symbols on your GS? Even less useful than it was before this patch. Run a GS and Mace defensive combo like I was doing before this patch? Well my Mace is still fine but now my GS symbol healing has been cut in half (also the symbol skill keys no longer line up between those two weapons like they did, making the combo more awkward than before). For being a so called “retaliation” change this really ended up being more of a Symbols nerf. And I’m not even sure why because I’ve never seen a single person complain about them being OP to begin with.
Haven’t logged any significant time on my Guardian since the patch. I’m now back to my Engineer main (still kind of kitten but at least I don’t have to sit and auto-attack 80% of the time). Rolling a Warrior as well since they seem like the golden child of GW2 balancing. I wish the devs would at least offer a response to this change and why they felt it necessary to mess up the Greatsword skillset in order to balance retaliation.
The kill variety thing is so true. I can have all my other daily stuff completed from running around in Orr but then I’ll check my kill variety and it’ll be like 2/15. I really wish Frostgorge Sound were a full 80 zone because I love the variety of that zone (both mobs and the environment itself) compared to the Orr stuff. And while some of the environments in Orr are pretty cool, I find that in exploring you discover that around every corner is just more Risen. I kind of wish the Orr zones featured a little more diversity.
I’d rather the opposite really. A shorter cooldown means having to put them down all the time – better they be more effective so they’re worth the C/D.
Agree. Lowering the cooldown but then having to constantly replant them is not the solution. I think they should be made powerful enough that when they’re thrown down an enemy will have to seriously decide between focusing on the engineer or the turret (meaning turrets need to be a real threat). They’re a stationary object, so I think they can afford to be powerful since they can’t chase players around like a ranger’s pet.
And yes, I’d just started my guardian prior to these adjustments and yes it sucks to relearn stuff, but I’d rather play a good profession rather than suffer through a broken one.
Greatsword was in no way broken before. Greatsword was as close to a perfect skillset as I’ve encountered imo. Whether or not retaliation was is another matter and could have been adjusted without screwing up greatsword in the process.
Eh, the change is fine for me. Now the high burst skill on the weapons are consistent. Before whirling wrath was on 3 and zealot’s defense was 2, now they’re the same. Honestly it won’t take long to get used to the adjustment.
As for the increased CD on symbol of wrath… it’s not a very powerful move in the first place, rarely gets used for retaliation in PvE, and I mainly only used it for the leap finisher. It’s a trivial nerf.
It wasn’t as powerful as whirling wrath, that’s true, but other than auto-attack and obviously whirling wrath it was a pretty significant chunk of dps, especially for those of us with Symbol heavy builds. Also, compared to Whirling Wrath, it was an ability you could have active and damaging while you were doing other attacks, which increased our potential for higher burst and our overall damage over time. I’m really not seeing how losing that is “trivial”.
Edit: As I see it, Zeal has become an even more worthless trait line than it was before. I’m not sure how that can be considered trivial either, since if anything, Zeal needed to be improved more than almost any other line.
i hate when people only pick certain things from a post as long as yours – but i still do. be ensured that i read it all.
“People can no longer take refuge in my Symbols and my ability to withstand a beating has been nearly cut in half.”
You said you have mace focus equipped as a second set. mace still provides a nearly permamnet symbol that gives reggen and heals. with ability three you are able to put protection on top. throw i Hammer as weapon swap and you have more symbols up then before. i do not see the how your playstyle is broken now.
it always sucks to loose stuff you got acustomed to, but its not like a they broke game or team mechanics.
That said, it does not address the reduction in playstyle that affected Greatsword users. The ability to hard cast the symbol and have a more dynamic playstyle than hammer provided made it a well-received weapon within the Guardian community.
It does “suck to lose(sp) stuff” that I am accustomed to, but in an MMO there should be a serious give and take methodology. In this case, if ANet considers ret too strong they should at least give us full reasoning behind their very broad strokes of change. I personally hate the form of GS now with the increased cooldown rates because it makes GS feel much more passive, akin to the Hammer. I certainly do love spamming auto-attacks… oh wait.
Exactly. You hit what is my biggest issue with this change: it’s not the shifting of the key position or not the reduced retaliation (or even lower dps), but the loss of an active feeling skillset. Having two skills with 10 second cooldowns and ways to combo them went a long way to making greatsword feel like a really “action” oriented weapon. While when I use something like Hammer I get bored waiting on my auto-attack and cooldowns, greatsword always felt very active. It really was the single weapon that determined my decision to roll a Guardian instead of a Warrior. Now, however, it doesn’t feel the same. It doesn’t feel as active. Now it’s just auto-attack and wait for Whirling Wrath to cooldown. It’s become a more passive skillset imo (Leap of Faith lowered CD is nice but I honestly don’t see it as a huge boon in PvE, at least not compared to what Symbol of Wrath offered my symbols build Guardian).
I’m really frightened for the future of this class when so many people in this class forum are so vocal about something so trivial. This thread is really a bad reflection on Guardians. Some people need to take a deep breath and a long hard look at themselves.
A 10 second increase in one of the primary greatsword skills and a complete swap of three out of 5 skill positions is not “trivial” imo, especially not for those of us heavily invested in greatsword. I’ve pretty much loved greatsword on my guardian until tonight, but the cooldown change and the skill repositioning really did hurt the fun factor for me, so I don’t consider that trivial either.
the cast speed is hardly different from before but now the grenadier talent work properly.. it’s more a improvement than anything else.
Which doesn’t benefit those of us who aren’t spec’d in grenades. As a mostly flamethrower and rifle build most of my traits become almost completely worthless once I get underwater (and the ones that do work aren’t really that great since harpoon gun kind of sucks anyway).
It’s really just a retaliation nerf – all the good things about the GS are still intact.
Except they’re not intact. I used Symbol of Wrath’s damage component to help AoE stuff down in PvE, on top of providing healing with the major trait in the healing trait line. Now both of those aspects have been GREATLY NERFED for greatsword, all in the name of some half kitten buff (retal) that most people never even noticed anyway. And the Zeal trait line (which focuses on symbols and the greatsword specifically) have had all of its minor traits reduced in effectiveness by half. All because of this change for retal. Anet is off their kitten rocker with this nerf.
Yep, also I considered having 2 abilities with a 10 second cooldown one of the “good things” about greatsword and I don’t really see how that’s intact. Compared to the old greatsword it now feels like I’m waiting on cooldowns too much. And Leap of Faith’s lowered CD doesn’t really make up for the DPS loss of Symbol of Wrath. Seriously, LoF does about auto-attack damage. The blind is nice but in PvE when I’m fighting mobs I don’t frequently need a gap closer on a short cooldown more than I need an ability like Symbol of Wrath to do decent AoE damage.
Was the greatsword dps really that high to justify any nerfs though? My Warrior’s greatsword shreds compared to my Guardian. The major advantages I see in the Guardian skillset are the easy access to combos and the utility, but why cut dps to balance those aspects (if those were even their concern)? Especially when Guardian’s aren’t exactly swimming in great high dps weapon choices.
What is confusing about nerfing something that is just stupidly OP and takes absolutely no skill? Now, at least with the retaliation nerf, you actually have to play a Guardian and not just easymode faceroll. Good job Anet, keep them coming.
Really? Because from my experience in PvE only a fraction of my damage output comes from retaliation in each fight. Actually more of it probably came from the damage output of Symbol of Wrath than it did from retaliation, and yet now my Symbol of Wrath is nerfed in order to somehow balance retaliation which to me never felt that powerful to begin with.
Well, on the upside, at least there’s no reason to question whether to use a greatsword over a hammer anymore.
I wish I could enjoy hammer. With this greatsword change I’m not sure what I’ve got left on my Guardian to use. Other than greatsword I pretty much only like sword and mace
Whirling wrath was always a 10 sec cooldown. But maybe you’re noticing it more now because that’s going to be basically all greatsword guardian’s will doing (besides lots more auto-attack).
Also, while I like the animation for Leap of Faith, I can’t say it makes sense to be doing it more frequently. Why increase the frequency of a skill that has me leaping at an enemy I’m likely already fighting in melee range? The Symbol of Wrath animation at least makes sense as a skill that you’d possibly use when fighting face to face.
Was retaliation really overpowered in PvE to justify changing greatsword skillset and I guess now working to modify ret itself? It really seems like these changes are directed at sPvP, so that has me wondering why my PvE guardian is having his effectiveness reduced for balancing in a game mode I don’t even play?
Er. He’s talking about the secondary effect from Symbol of Wrath, not the Combo with a Leap or Blast Finisher. Symbol of Wrath already gave 5*1s of Retaliation at base (as all Symbols give a Boon to those standing in it).
Also, Guardians already are self-stacking Might Machines. Also see: Virtue of Justice with Inspired Virtue and Renewed Justice. Also see: Empowering Might. A Symbol that gives an extra stack of Might to everyone standing in it is very much team support. Hell, the Guardian could drop it under a cluster of ranged attackers, then hop back into the fight.
Nothing wrong with having an opinion, but read what you’re commenting on before you do so. Please?
Edited for clarification of reference.
I did read what was said, I just made the wrong interpretation.
About might-stacking, you’ll notice (most? all?) Guardian’s might-stacking comes from some sort of self-sacrifice, and/ or usually benefits the party more. Empower is the best example – while you’re channeling your spell, your allies are getting stronger. You’re then left with only a few seconds to take advantage of your own might. Likewise, thetraits are related with a virtue, the guardian’s mechanic about self-sacrificing for a party-wide effect. And finally, the burning fields com at the “sacrifice” (let’s call it that) of utility skills.
I personally love how those little details are set up, because they define and give personality to the profession.
Also, GS used to be very formulaic. There was a single optimal skill sequence, that was basically about using 2->3->4, and 2->3 when 4 was under recharge. Now that the symbol has double the recharge than Whirling Wrath, we’re going to see the wrath not combo with it half the times, and the other skills way less, giving some sort of decision making behind the symbol usage. Before, we could spam condition removal and retaliation. It was a mindless, noob weapon. Spam 234, and you get massive melee-range aoe, condition removal two times, tick damage, loads of burning, and loads of retaliation. You spammed 234 in pve, and you would win against almost everything. Now, the retaliation stacking and the two free condition removals are more valuable, because they’re less frequent, and that’ll lead to decision making about the best time to use the symbol.
I think it’s simply a funnier playstyle as it is now.
I gave it a try tonight and didn’t enjoy it. The layout feels less intuitive than it did before. Before it was light field then combo with finisher (2-3 or 4 as you said). But now I hit 4 and then combo backward with 2 or 3. The first time I played a greatsword Guardian I immediately felt that it was a well designed and planned skillset. It just felt right to me. Now it feels awkward, part of which is just adjusting to the new key placement, but part is definitely the reduced synergy of the skill layout and the functions of the skills together.
in all honesty, i do not see what the big deal is with retaliation. did it really need a nerf? because my thief, mesmer, warrior, and pretty much anything else dropped guardians without even noticing retaliation damage, so i dont see why retaliation is so bad as a boon. secondly the change in skill placement is just really annoying. i think the skills and the way retaliation worked were fine. i probably be playing a different character seeing as i dont think they will change them back.
What I want to know is how retaliation was a big deal for PvE? Now maybe it shines in dungeons, I haven’t run a lot of them to be honest, but in normal PvE most of the monsters hit so slow that I rarely saw it making a big difference even if I had it up all the time. So is this nerf, change, and skill set move all for PvP balance? I sure hope they didn’t just screw up my guardian in PvE for PvP balance….
Completely hate this change. I seriously don’t understand why they would hit Guardian greatsword when Warrior’s greatsword is left completely untouched in every patch (not that I want to see them nerfed, but was our greatsword really overpowered?). Now I not only have to relearn my skill order, but with only 1 skill on a 10 second cooldown I’m now going to just sit back and auto-attack and occasionally whirling wrath (yes I know, switch weapons too, but the greatsword skill combos were perfect before imo). Now I feel like greatsword is going to be a lot more boring with only 1 active skill with a low cooldown (although maybe it makes two-handed mastery more of a necessity with GS than it was before).
When some people were clamoring for mounts pre-release I was against it, but now after spending so much time running in this game I feel like something does need to be done. WPs either need to be cheaper, all classes need to have easier access to perma-swiftness like a few do, or mounts need to be added.
I’m not broke or close to it, but at 80 I frequently run everywhere because it can really become a large gold sink if you don’t. And while my main is an Engineer so I always have constant swiftness, when I’m playing one of my alts that doesn’t have as many swiftness options I find travel can become a drag. I’m totally a world explorer too btw, so I’m all in favor of things that encourage exploration. But I don’t think making people avoid instant travel or slowly run through every zone to be a good way to encourage that. All that really does is trigger mindless travel boredom (especially if you’re on your 2nd or 3rd alt traveling through the same zone you’ve finished 100% once or twice before).
I don’t understand why my Priory character can’t buy items and give it to my Vigil character or vice versa. If we can’t ever change our order (which I swear I remember reading Anet said would be possible), then we should at least be able to gain access to the various order pieces once we’ve leveled three characters through each of their individual order stories.
As it is right now, if I want a Vigil rifle for my Priory Engineer, even though I have a Vigil Guardian, I’d have to level up an entirely new engineer and play through the same story I played on my Guardian on that other character (and that’s just for a skin since the stats are not great)? That seems like a ridiculous requirement when I’ve already unlocked the banner/completed the story with another character. Both of my characters basically saved their respective orders, yet they can’t make a requisition for an extra piece of armor or weapon for each other?
Maybe as a solution, add a general “Pact” vendor in Orr that gives you access to as much of the order armor as your account has unlocked. That way, if you want access you still have to play at least three characters through each order’s stories, but you won’t have to level up a new character if you decide you might like another order’s items but have already completed that path with another character.
I’m starting to wonder if we’re ever going to see these in game. I’ve been holding off on a acquiring an “end game” rifle for my engineer because the Pact Rifle is my favorite (realize I’ll probably just be using it for the skin), but the game has been out over a month and as far as I know no one has discovered how to get any of these. I hope if they’re not actually available yet Anet puts them in soon so I don’t have to settle for something else.
The problem with every group that fails these dungeons is that they try to play this game like every other MMO.
And this is where AC fails as a first dungeon, because it does not train players how dungeons may work differently in this game than in other MMOs (it just beats you to death until you learn). Why should players just assume they have to play a completely different way than in other MMOs? It’s the responsibility of the game to instruct players about its systems, not players to divine how the game wants them to play. The open world PvE does not prepare players for AC and other Dungeons, and because of that people are coming in unprepared and getting destroyed. I really don’t understand how some of you can blame players for this by telling them to L2P when the game does not prepare them for harder content until they’re basically being beaten and wiped out by it.
A level 30 story mode dungeon that’s basically most player’s introduction to dungeons for this game should not be requiring players to respec or seek out an ideal group for completion. It should be easing players into the content and style of dungeons in this game. It fails completely in that area. You may learn how to play dungeons through it, but it does it by beating you over the head.
The first time I ran AC my group finished it, but we did so after multiple wipes. And overall the experience felt frustrating and tedious. Rather than leave me feeling like “well that was fun, now I’d love to try the real challenge in explorable mode”, it left me thinking that if this is supposed to be the “easier” version I will likely never ever desire to play an Explorable dungeon in this game. I really can’t imagine that’s the type of user experience they want new players to have…
Badges really should just be automatically deposited in your inventory (actually all loot should, but badges are priority). During large sieges it’s hard enough to tell what is going on without also trying to find loot on the ground.
On top of the fact you’re getting “double the prestige” to show off, dual weapons can be exceedingly more powerful depending on how you trait and, the big one – the sigils.
Two sigils, as opposed to one, can make a massive difference.
Add in that Magic Find sets ( despite many people not using it ) benefit more from dual wielding, it’s another ‘nudge’ in the direction that two weapons should inherently cost more than a single two handed one.
Then that’s a balancing issue that needs to be looked at (and should not influence weapon prices). Two weapons shouldn’t cost more because they’re “better” or you’ve basically got a situation where 2H becomes less viable regardless of its comparable cost.
I actually like air blast. It’s nice to have a knockback that doesn’t also knock me over like the rifle (and even though flamethrower is closer range, I don’t feel it’s meant to be melee range like the tool kit). If flame blast didn’t always get obstructed after I use air blast it would be a good way to combo into an almost guaranteed flame blast hit.
But I agree with 4, I’d like it if napalm were an circle. It would make placing it and actually keeping enemies in the aoe much easier.
Skill #2 is constantly getting obstructed for no reason, or gets fired into the ground and disappears. Don’t even think about using it on a target that’s on a slight upward incline.
As someone specializing in the flamethrower, this is driving me mad. Anet needs to straighten out this “obstructed” issue with skill #2 because each time this happens I’m probably having my dps halved. Seriously, this is probably flamethrower’s most damaging skill and often it goes off without hitting a target at all (but of course I still get a cooldown). I really like flamethrower but the environmental issues with it are really maddening.
But when you “drop” your bundle you are technically switching back to your main weapon, so why would the sigil not work then (especially if it’s true that they work for Elementalists). Seems like either a bug or a huge oversight on the part of the devs.
Scepter could use a more interesting Auto-attack. It’s slow and tedious and feels like I’m blowing bubbles. Smite is great, though, and the Immob can be pretty handy.
Yeah, it also looks like you’re either throwing bubbles or helium balloons at the enemy. Ideally, I think Scepter auto-attack should look something like Ray of Judgment style ray attack or a “holy” lightning bolt. Something with a little more oomph.
I’m been wondering this myself. As far as I can tell firearms and alchemy seem like the two trait lines that contain beneficial flamethrower traits. But I would think inventions would be useful for survivability as you said. I’m not really sure if I’d bother with explosives as I don’t really see much there that’d really help the flamethrower other than extra power (which you should just be able to stack through gear).
I’d be interested in a good flamethrower build if anyone has one, as that and rifle seem to be my most used weapons.
One of my biggest issues with it is how slow you swing the wrench. Pry bar is nice and fast but Smack is like Guardian hammer slow. The difference is a guardian can sit and take a beating while they swing their slow hammer or mace but as an Engineer I really can’t. I wish Tool Kit felt a little more snappy.
Flame Blast on flamethrower is really buggy. If you’re on slightly uneven terrain, your character will just shoot it in the ground and you get the “obstructed” text. For a skill that kinda hard to hit optimally, it needs to be reliable.
This seriously needs to be fixed. I airblast an enemy to get them in range for flame blast and then when I use it get “obstructed” even though there is absolutely nothing separating me from the targeted enemy. Flame blast either needs to explode on impact instead of at range or it needs to stop getting obstructed by invisible walls or maybe ghosts.
Having the same issue myself with it set to 60. Instead of limiting it to 60 it stays at 50. This is with a 570 GTX using the newest Nvidia 306.02 drivers.
