Guild Wars 2

in some months, i didn’t find a single line explaining why anet joined the dark side of mmo’s: massive grinding.
they just announced it like an ordinary news.

there are lots of flaming posts of people like me and you who noticed that anet betrayed manifesto.

but unfortunately, i read also too much people who want even more grinding.
because the typical mmo-nerd says: “if i play more hours than you, i’ll have better equip than you…and if u want to be competitive, just play more”
that’s the golden rule of mmo world.
many people can’t play 200h only for a skin. they want a carrot on a stick.
or a gear treadmill. a concrete advantage over “n00bs” playing 2-3times a week.
for these people, mostly coming from other mmos, ascended equip is still too little a difference.
as anet learned its new audience behavior (not the ones they targeted at the very beginning, who like an horizontal growth, but new people coming from wow or similar), just without any explanation to customers, introduced what make they earn more money, or have more players (i think both): making gw2 similar to any other mmo on the market.

but they will never openly admit what they did, or why.
it’s marketing, not coherence. it’ money.
they’ll just say: it’s no grind, it’s not necessary.
and many people mainly fanboys or “infiltrates”, will say the same.
but all of us do know the truth.
gw2 is nothing like the game anet promised.

the only thing to do then is…look for another game.

grindy. and too similar to other mmos.

lordkrall.7241:

But isn’t that the point though?
Legendaries aren’t supposed to be for the “average player” they are supposed to be there for the hardcore players.

if legendaries / ascended were still equivalent to exo, and just beautiful skins..ok.
that’s not what happened.

agree with most of the posts.
gw2 simply changed the audience it caters to.
I don’t know if it ll manage to fight with wow as mmorpg or with other mmos as an e-sport..but it is no more a casual friendly game.
not as it was at launch.

what really irritate me is it’s still presented by both players and anet as a “different” game.

i think that Anet launched the game with that starting idea that “GW2 could be different from other mmo’s” meaning that they could implement new gameplay dynamics avoiding grinding.
dynamic events, living story, world bosses.
but all turned to farming/grinding. even the smallest event turns to: "pick Xgems, convert to Y, search Z….for 30000000000000000000000times.

what they found is that the enormous zombie swarms of people coming from other mmo, who became a large percentage of total gw2 player, just don’t ask for more story or quests or dungeons. just needed more grind.
and that reward for grind couldn’t be just a skin or a gizmo or accessories.
it had to be armor, weapons, etc: had to give them a tangible advantage in combat.
repeat 300time same dungeon was too much for a new dye or weapon skin.
they instead would happily play 300hrs to get a better armor, and to make themselves “clearly better” than the casual player who doesn’t want or simply can’t spend his own life on the pc.

mmo philosophy says that: “if you play more and more, you deserve a better armor/weapon/title/skin/portrait/pet etc etc etc, against n00bs or casuals who just play 10hrs a week. if they want to improve, just grind more.”

i hoped until the very last weeks a step back, but nothing…
this change of direction, form casual oriented to a more “pro-nerd-farmer/grinder” one, shows me that it’s time to….change game

the best thing to do do was to delete manifesto and forget about it..but still devs keep it online and occasionally quote it.
really really bad move :/

HoT is nothing similar to the vanilla, it aims to a different slice of players’ population.
and obviously, i just didn t buy it and ragequit.
There is no post that will make anet go back, manifestos or philosophy.. there is no useful discussion with who asked for and like things this way, will clearly defend it.
ragequit, as soon and as long as the game is not what we like, is the only tool we have.
it s just marketing and selling copies/gems. they think it s the best for their finances.

I don t think that the game will ever go back to what we liked at the beginning. but now gw2 is nothing so different from other mmo….old fans playerbase gone…even wow losing players because of boredom..
hard times are coming. they’ll try to bring back a part of casuals.
but “betrayed” customers like me won t come back

Swagg.9236:

I don’t know what to say.

I can’t even ask “What happened to the GW1 ANet?” because I know that they all jumped ship.

It’s honestly saddest because if GW2 were actually better handled over its lifetime, people would probably try to laugh this off or honestly react in a calm, but concerned manner. Instead, everyone is just going to curse ANet into the ground, kick dirt on its face and trod off laughing “Good riddance,” because it’s believable. GW2 has fallen so low that we honestly believe that this leak could be a legitimate reality.

It’s just sad.

+1. totally agree.
the “bad” news could be either true or false, but the fact itself that all of us doubt about it and start flaming before any official confirm, shows that anet is no more trustworth in the customers’ eyes.

as happened to ffxiv, sometimes miracles happen…

though, i think in d3 ros and gw2 spring patch we won’t see any :o

“communication”…well.
if i knew it, i would never have bought this game.
and i think many others with me.

i think that anet generated what you name a “bad communication” on a purpose.
they sold it on that advertisement.
or it’s just n00b’s (including me) fault to misunderstand it?
in the end, the result is the same: many casual gamers will leave the game.
for us…it’s too late.
we already spent that money. but they won’t see other.
however, still wait for any change of direction.
but it’s a fool’s hope.

OT: and…there is no hatred left in my words.
only sadness. what a pity. i really used to love it as it was in the very beginning.

Reverence.6915:

Doesn’t take away from the fact that there is no grinding in gw2 unless you force it on yourself.

that’s exactly the opposite many players are complaining about.
for me, there a grinding, and it’s mandatory
because everything gives an advantage, also if it’s just 12.534423323233% AND AR, it’s very useful, especially in wvw and fractals.

skins are not mandatory legendary used to be not mandatory. titles, commander tag, dyes these are not mandatory. period.
mandatory doens’t necessarily mean that a charact absolutely needs it to access specific new content. it means it’s felt like a necessity because it gives a concrete, also if little, superiority.

you’ll answer that it’s still not so essential,
and someone will say again that if it wasn’t so useful there was no need to introduce it, and just continue without them and give some new only cosmetic content.
and someone believes that some mmo players NEED vertical progression…
and someone will say that they can gain ascended playing 1h a week without even looking at the screen while cooking,
and someone else will say he is still good at wvw without ascended…

imho, truth is simple.
and everybody knows it.
you like grind or not, love ascended or not, feel need to have or not,
anet stated some specific features in the game which no longer exist.
grinding and vertical progression are evident.
little progression but significative.
it’s a loss of time to demonstrate the opposite of evidence

as in title.
i read previous 3ds…and i feel nobody would blame devs for it.
it would be only a nicer way to play with others, without penalizing guilds or other.
if a party slot is empty, just enter with group to fill it…without spamming messages in chat or sending party requests to everybody in front of dg entrance :/

it’s ridiculous a game that encourages social gaming doesnt feature it.
it would help many who don t have enough friends in list or guild, saving a lot of time for gaming instead of waiting.

the issue casual players address is not “challenge”. it s repetitiveness, grind and boredom.
if something is so difficult that probably just 1 in 100players will succeed i’m ok to be that average 99%…maybe i would t even try it.

what i dislike is that here is not “challenge” to have bis..but just too long.
legendaries? i can tolerate it, it s more of a status symbol and QoL improvement.

but I absolutely can t accept that grind to ascended.
don t want to craft. nor grind gold to buy it. nor materials.
I want the bis gear to be given free or almost free to me, then start the true endgame being competitive with the others in any sector of the game, wvw or raids….just a matter of my players skill not my char stats or unlocked masteries.

this is why i bought gw2 in the beginning. easy exo, then just learn to play. and that s why i won t play it ever again.
no, ascended are not “not needed”. everything that has even +0.01 stat is BETTER. then it s required,

+1 graphics are a piece of art.
really dreamy…

but as it has become a fight fire with fire…
i can answer that also gear grind compulsion (that thousand hours in few months) is a illness. and indeed it is.
as it’s stated in the DSM from APA.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Manual_of_Mental_Disorders) “internet gaming addiction disorder”.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I don’t want the message to be “shut up, we don’t want you” or “we’re going to ignore you til you go away”.
I want the message to be “then help us try to get to where you think the game should be”.

agree. i think that both parts struggling to convince the other to “correctly interpret” manifesto is a waste of time, and no result is coming out from this post.
(it’s the reason i opened the other post about VP, in fact)

the only solution is to work together to find a game progression that satisfies both parts.
and IMHO, it could be the horizontal one.

because there is NO WAY that a part of people (that part of it that bought the game because of manifesto) will ever accept another BiS tier to grind.

Kevan.8912:

Kormeg.2469:

Kevan.8912:

Q:“Why havnt you bought HoT yet?”

A: Because I won’t buy it at all. edit

You have been very active on the forums for someone uninterested in playing the game.

Lets assume you’re genuinely interested in others’ opinions and not just trolling with quotes:
nobody said that there is not “gates” in other games.
In fact, an eternal carrot-on-a-stick is the most common behavior that mmorpg show….the caplevel-new BiS/stats-raiding cycle, in the order we prefer.
but that new gates in here are not welcome.
Ok, it’s not a new tier gear or cap level, they say. meh?
Still it’s not what many mean for horizontal progression.

Ascended/FOTM/grind to BiS had already caused a lot of troubles..so just to cool down the flames. and keep the kitten manifesto alive and healthy..
they could just make ascended easier to obtain and make raids a mere matter of skills, not farming another parameter…and they would have avoided all this mess.

Nope. Instead, they add fuel to the fire with raids and gating through BOTH ascended and masteries. bullseye!
So anet’s position about gw2 and future becomes evident: they’ve irreversibly taken a path that a part (don’t know if a major or a “vocal” small population of whining casuals like me, but definitely I’m not the only to think this) of the original players don’t like.

Everything has its price.
I understand that it’s a matter of money and audience and devs will do what they think it’s convenient, but at this point it’s hard to continue to cater so different kinds of users with opposite expectations.
However, I don’t care so much about market trends, I’m a customer and feel “betrayed” once more…it’s obvious that I’m here to make them all know it. It’s..umh..was MY game, too.

autoquote in a similar thread
Yeah, I know your pain bro.
It’s same here…that joke about unnecessary gear and there is no gated content.
The original sin is… we trusted this few lines of txt:

“But if you hate traditional MMORPGs, then you should really check out Guild Wars 2. Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun”

GuzziHero.2467:

GuzziHero.2467:

Anet flat out lied to us.

I would like to apologise for this remark I made earlier. It is incorrect and unfair. I know, of course, that at the time of launch and the comment about Exotics being the final tier of gear being made, it is wholly possible that Ascended gear was not in Anet’s design plan.

So yes, I’m sorry for making this comment and I would like to retract it.

Well, so it was not a lie. but still they changed their mind, the manifesto is not valid anymore and with it the reason many of us bought the game years ago.
It’s a different kind of game now

Danikat.8537:

I would also prefer just horizontal progression. But you’ve got to bear in mind that a lot of people who play GW2 want at least some vertical progression.

When the game was first released a lot of players breezed through most of the available content (or at least levelling, getting a full set of exotics and doing all the dungeons) then started complaining that there was nothing left that gave them any sense of progression of any kind. What they asked for specifically was vertical progression – usually in the form of a gear treadmill with raids as the method of acquisition.

Personally I think Anet did a good job of compromising by adding just 1 new tier with a relatively small stat increase which is only actually required for the ‘hard mode’ version of one optional dungeon. And especially doing it in such a way that the one tier has kept those who want vertical progression occupied for over a year.

But I am concerned about what they’re going to do when most of those people have got a full set of ascended and start demanding something else to grind for. Or how they’ll handle an expansion. I’m sure many people, particularly those who came from other MMOs are expecting an expansion to include an increase in the level cap and new tiers of equipment to go with it and will be disappointed and/or angry if that doesn’t happen, but other people (aka us) will be disappointed if they do that.

But I think we should worry about burning that bridge when we get to it.

maybe those people complaining about no endgame and no vert progress would be happy with a endgame with more interesting story, living story, new skills and so on.
if they were bored by the game, it wasn’t for the absence of a gear to grind ONLY.
but also for a lack of contents that anet tried to fulfill with the easy carrot: grind to BiS.

so switching back to only horizontal prog. might be a right compromise

what you extrapolate from anet words is your interpretations, not “the very one interpretation”.
“no grind” means exactly “no grind”, not “no grind because someone else thinks that you don’t need it”.
because the simple fact that there is an improvement in gameplay, although it is very little, it’s a treadmill.
i never flamed against grinding for legendary items. it was only cosmetic.
ascended is totally different.
everything else is just talking.
that’s all for me.

and…happy new year ^^

Enough time to close a raid or not, I think it’s better to have choice and decide on the spot if he wants to keep logged a few additional hours a week , instead of being forced to skip raids because of no required/sufficient/peoplewillkickhimfromparty ascended or masteries…and being forced to waste that hours or much more on grinding mats/gold to be properly geared for months.

And again, you’ll answer that casuals shouldn’t desire to do raids because they don’t “deserve” it…he/me/anybody else will say that they want to because at the beginning they expected so…up to a treadmill of arguments.

well, the issue is still here, because gw2 tried to make very different audiences play the same stuff (well, it was just apparently: as in fact they tried to split them in pro-raiders-fractals and casuals-unskilled zerg and farm open world events. exactly what i don’t like), but in fact they have totally opposite desires.
Well, it CAN’T work. you cannot sell a game as one" for everybody" “different than other mmos as it doesn’t drain your time”, then start to lock FOTM with AR, raids with masteries and ascend…and legendaries with raids and ..and expect nobody to leave the game/whine.
I’m the "casual/unskilled extremist ", that one of “don’t want to wait a second to enter endgame, at all”…except the necessary time to learn how to do it (and then being kicked in the teeth by champion mobs, but it is alright, i wouldn’t whine about my missing skill. what I hate is numbers, stats, determinism, being bound to lose because i’ve not grinded enough. i just want to play, try, explore. not grind ..and then, but only then, lose because of my lack of experience as a player.)..not “working” towards it" .

There is no solution, except than choose one of the two “extremes” and follow it.
they knew it, of course they had to do a choice…and they did it. they considered the old population they sold the game to at the beginning…as expendable.
In fact I won’t buy HoT, as they expceted to happen but tried to sell the espansion the same. nice try..
But if you look at the expansion, to me it’s evident that even thinking of create a raid, the true core of pro-gaming tradition, it’s a new manifesto and underlines very well what audience they want to satisfy.

I understand, it’s how things go. people change. games change. i’m sure that many will enjoy it…but not me.
good luck and have fun!

Kevan.8912:

….but anet is still trying to keep a foot in both camps.

i think they will finally lose at least one of the camps xD
at least one, because while for casuals it’s too much grind, for pros it’s too much grind for nothing so useful.
atm, gw2….is king of nothing.

If it was just about that 1.x%, i wouldn t complain this much..and so other decractors (although it would still be unfair competion, “grind not skill”).
but 10%dps or more can heavily affect a fight.
let’s assume that raid is, as devs said, designed around BiS gear, to be challenging for the best gear available: without that 10% dps, it’s quite possible that closing the raid may become much more difficult, or even impossible.
And if we talk about masteries locking raid wings (and it definitely can be a huge timesink)…or, once again, that kitten AR.

We’re talking about the common issue of any other mmo available.
Well done, the nogrind game, the enjoy-game-from-first-login game, the no-treadmill game.

They have to choose one path: a skill based game (that does nt mean casual: it just means that you can access any part of the game even at the first login…but complete it only if you’re skilled enogh, without differences in gear stats and any other unfair help) or the typical timegated/bestgear/unlockendgamebygrind game.
there is no half way between.

for me, manifesto is a not a contract….(wait…well indeed it is, for the customer they sold the game to. Mislesding advertising i’d call it)
well, however it’s sign of reliability.

i believe you it could depend on publishers’ influence.
but unfortunately the result is the same.
it s not my duty to understand them. not any reverse psychology or philosophy,
it s theirs to suit the customers

VOLKON.1290:

Show me where the endless gear grind is in this game and I’ll consider considering that they may have shifted from the ideas presented in the manifesto. Yes, ascended gear itself can be a bit grindy (read: Time consuming) to get. However there is no endless treadmill of tossing away old gear for newer, more powerful gear which is exactly what the manifesto was referring to.

There is no treadmill, as promised. The fact that they’ve stuck to the manifesto in that regards is commendable.

false. it’s a treadmill. and they broke their manifesto. period.
i don’t care if without dailies or monthly there would be less players online.

it’s not daily itself the problem for me.
if a guy needs grinding, do it yourself.
do it for a new color or skin or just to make money.
that’s ok.

that’s not ok: with dailies (or any other grind) you can craft ascended weapons and stuff.
it’s 5perc stats a very little advantage? or AR?
i don’t care. there is a difference with exotic.
(and AR is quite important for fotm.)

cosmetic upgrades are still allowed and aligned with manifesto.
but not gear treadmill.

Tregarde.6031:

GW2 is already one of the most friendly MMO’s to casual players. I’ve been able to level several characters to 80, gear them up with Exotics, and most of it solo over the past 3 years.

Well, one of the most friendly mmos doesn’t mean it’s actually casual friendly, but just that it used to be less elitist/raid oriented. (it used to be: I think it has already changed)

OP, you’re not alone.
But to me , MMOs are just like a “massive sp rpg” (i would add online to your definition, as there are definitely massive sp rpg, but online and coop component is quite bad, when present -see dragon age, witcher, fallout) but with other people, far from toxicity, discrimination and competition, just to enjoy playing together.

Unfortunately, mmo in general and mmos are the wrong place to non competitive, non elitist players.

If you have any idea about where to find this content-massive, massively online single-player-like rpg, let me know
It s long years I wait for it

HiddenNick.7206:

Dude… As far as I know when you play the game you level up a character. And as soon as it’s a level 80 and the vertical progression is over you make another one. So there is not so much difference between you and people that want to progress their characters instead of creating a new one.

leveling to 80 is a pleasure.
everything you do gives exp. everything you do gives karma.
you’ve got all you need to play, just following story and hearts.
nothing to buy from black lion. nothing to craft because tou find it.
just jump in a map or another, and follow anything and anybody.
what is more, it’s interesting you unlock new skill and traits and learn to play that profession.

after you hit 80:
do the same zones over and over, chains of events, fractals, just for mats and gold…and in doing all this, your growth is nothing.
(also grinding dungeons for skins is repetitive, but at least, it ends soon. and a skin vs another doesn’t give you any advantage over other players.)
it’s only increasing numbers to get another gear that increases other numbers.
and i feel it’s mandatory as it would give me better stats.

again, and again:
it’s a waste of time trying to demostrate that grind is good and vertical progression is necessary for gw because people wouldnt’ play, that gw was not so good etcetcetcetc….
we don’t like it. we hate it. our gaming experience is made worse by it.

please, and please again:
stop. you like it?
explain why you like it or not. period
and not the reasons because of which do you think we have to like the game too.

Yenn.9185:

There is no place for positive threads in this forum, sadly.

i see positivity only towards gw2…
and moral-disguised insults to everyone who has different opinions.
not a comment from me about the op.

Subdue.5479:

The problem is that there exists this middle group that wants to feel hardcore, sitting around in BiS gear, but doesn’t actually want to be hardcore. These players play like casuals, a dungeon here, a dungeon there, some mapping, not really doing anything focused or hardcore with their time, but they want to be dressed in the best gear. Mind you, the gear they’re currently in most likely far more than enough for any content they’ve done or ever think of doing. That’s not the point for them though. The point for them is that they no longer feel hardcore, even though they never really were hardcore.

the problem is that there exist some people that forget that if they want to feel hardcore, there is WoW.
and there yeah, that’s kitten. grind your soul out and get that BiS gear to feel your glory….for a pair of weeks before the next tier is rolled out.
it’s you that want to have an easy BiS…if compared to other games…but slighty too difficult/time wasting for the other standard players, to show your possible kittenitude….in a battle of the have-nots.

and there exist(ed) also a gw2 game that forgot who bought it and why.
why sold out so many copies.
the only things that divide it from a big fat fail. the casuals who want to have that best equip.
let it continue down the road of new tiers.
there we’ll never be a real competition with really hardcore-grindy games.
a foot in both camps…won’t last long.

have fun…until there is fun.

bravoart.5308:

Legendaries: Barred by RNG and cash. Well beyond the means of any average player.

Ascended: Too much time investment to be at the whim of patch nerfs/buffs. Unnecessary time-gating and mat gathering to encourage cash shop conversions.

You made it a lot further than I did OP. The game has turned in to a completely unnecessary grind. I actually had to laugh at the Halloween Event. I wonder if anyone actually got one of the weapons.

the worse part is that grinding (that awful horrible thing anet wanted to avoid), if once was only a painful choice to visually differentiate from masses, now has also become a must.

no. yours is just an opinion. nor good nor wrong.
on a par with who doesn’t like ascended and VP.
nobody wants to “correct” your idea.

what we’re trying to say is that we don’t like this compromise, because bought gw2 for some precise reasons. for what it used to be at launch.
and we think anet betrayed its manifesto.

then you fanboys came here to teach us why they didn’t betray it, why it’s right to love ascended, why we don’t need it and what a awesome hardcore gamers you are.

however, a waste of time for both the populations.
don’t trust anet. everything can change in a second at their convenience, regardless to manifestos, cdi or anything.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

“Must have BiS gear” is a conditioned mentality, you can overcome it.

and why ? because of the authority of anet?
also people who asked for ascended could overcome thier desires.
they also had manifesto against them.

we’re customers just like you.
it’s our right to struggle for what we like.

for me, the simple fact they are even only thinking about this vip, is a clue that anet has taken the worst direction possible.
it s for asia only? not so sure about it.

Amiron.1067:

ANet needs to produce higher quality content if they want to keep me around and spending money on gems.

they need to produce content
because for now i see grind and tiers. not contents

imsoenthused.1634:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

You know, I don’t really care about Ascended Gear one way or the other. I hear lots of complaints about it being uber-expensive. I haven’t spent any money on Ascended Gear. I have a few items from laurels and such. My crafting is moving along steadily, it’s in the upper 400s. It may take me 6 months or a year to craft the Armor, should I decide to do so. Wasn’t that the idea? To introduce something that took some time to achieve? What’s the big rush? Maybe all those in a hurry are Fractal players, I just don’t know. But, if you don’t buy your materials, it’s not very expensive…at least, not for me. =)

The problem is that they put a stat increase on it. Honestly, if they’d left it with exotic stats with the addition of agony resistance then I’d be perfectly happy. I’d feel like I had reached a fully geared position, and I’d be relaxed and playing the game, enjoying myself. Instead I don’t feel fully geared, I’m not relaxed, and as a result I’m not enjoying myself nearly as much as I would be. I feel the constant compulsion to work towards ascended gear so I can be “done” and start really playing the game.

again, +1
it expresses perfectly what i feel when logging in.
and then, it’s a matter of seconds before logging out.

horizontal progression…no grind philosophy…game for who doesn’t like mmo’s…ahahahahah!
no more lies, gw2 has shown its true nature…a typical grindy mmo, just like any other.

Banono.4597:

I honestly do not care if Anet decides to make a gear treadmill and adds a new tier with each living story update, but for the love of all six gods, make them obtainable without having to torture yourself crafting or praying to RNGesus. I refuse to craft especially in this game. The second I am forced to; I move on from this game.

you are already forced to craft.
the stats increase is decent (so in wvw it is a little but significant advantage)…AND you already need ascended to get to pve endgame: high fractals.
the “high fractals are not rewarding” excuse is not working here.
the anet’s decision of getting emphasis in difference between exotic and ascended is clear; but they have to choose what kind of people they want to keep logging: -carrot on a stick/wow clones fans or -BiS for everyone.

+1 kuru and claudius
won’t repeat anything already said in other threads, but a grindy game quite different than expected.

+1 locuz too.
the story is a bit too “simple”.

Vayne.8563:

You’re doing what I’m accusing others of doing to the manifesto…taking one bit of what I said while ignoring the context. The context here is simple.
I think people have misintepreted the manifesto, by taking stuff out of context. They take one line, they ignore the previous and following line and then have the audacity to say that Anet advertised the game falsely.

manifesto is there, where anyone can read it.
can you provide this “previous and following line” ppl ignore?
without any personal inferring. just the text.
where anet corrects the previous advertisement, so that everybody can understand the real hidden meaning of it.
as you say, this infos should be aged some months BEFORE the launch.

i think it unlikely that so many of us misunderstood it.
IMHO we understood it right. it’s anet that decided just to ignore it.

i think that the most elegant solution to this post would be:
“hi. i’m a dev. we used to think what you read on this kitten manifesto, but after some months from the launch we’ve changed our minds. this is our new line of conduct. grind is good. progression is good. we apologize for it but we think it’s better for us and the game because all we previously said is fail.” period

obviously, it will never happen.

Majic.4801:

Manifest Destiny

The Manifesto is alive and well and lives on in our hearts — and, I sincerely believe, in the hearts of most ArenaNet employees. I don’t think anyone in the video was lying, nor have I ever seen any evidence that anyone at ArenaNet even remotely resembles the “monsters from the id” too many players accuse them of being.

Like any creed, opinions on how the Manifesto should be interpreted, how it should be applied, how strictly it should be applied or when it should not be applied will vary, and disagreement naturally ensues. That is just as true within ArenaNet as it is in these forums, so any pretense of a One True Interpretation of the Manifesto is no more credible than any other claims of inspired revelation.

As eloquent as the Manifesto may be, it’s not perfect and never was. It’s probably not possible to actually publish a game which would conform to the Manifesto perfectly, and even if that somehow happened, players would nonetheless argue over whether it actually did, because opinions inevitably vary.

Rather, I think it is best to consider the Manifesto a statement of principles and ideals to draw upon and work toward, recognize that not everyone will agree on the best way to do that, and endeavor as a community to help shape the extraordinary vision ArenaNet has laid out for us.

Granted, that’s not always easy, we naturally tend to get emotional about things we care about, and I could certainly stand to better practice what I preach, myself.

But as long as we keep our eyes on the prize, (politely) hold ArenaNet to that vision and respect the fact that our fellow players can disagree (without necessarily being wrong), we won’t lose sight of what we care about most.

And that’s a goal worthy of us all.

+1

Xenon.4537:

If you feel obligated to grind for ascended armor and cannot play the game happily until you have every character slot filled with that pinkish-magenta text, I pitty you. People keep banging this “I feel obligated to get it” drum over and over. This leads me to believe it has more to do with your “psychological conditioning” than with Guild Wars itself. You’ve probably been trained by every game since 1985 to not stop until you have all the best items possible. The original idea of fun has been erased from your mind and replaced with a hunger that cannot be sated.

I shall posit an analogy for your anger. It is akin to the reaction of a young child learning to read. He becomes frustrated and says “books are dumb!” But books are not really dumb. The child simply doesn’t have the understanding, and the most basic primitive human reaction to a problem is to attack it or run away from it.

Ascended gear isn’t dumb, you just don’t yet understand that it’s an optional long-term goal meant for certain players who have the time and resources to pursue it. You are angry because you have been trained to expect something. Well things change. Different games are different. Is it not humanity’s ability to adapt one of its greatest strengths?

i’m sorry as english is not my language, and i won’t be so elegant.
this is the usual demonstration that “ascended are not that bad”, and you also show a paternalistic compassion to underline your superiority.
you can explain the things in a more polished way, but things remain as they are.

there is not any conditioning here. it’s the exact opposite.

i play for the game itself. for what a game can offer. plot, graphics, gameplay.
so, i’m mainly a single-player-games player (sorry for the riddle).
skyrim. bioshock. oblivion. mass effect. far cry. crysis. half life. just to give you an idea.

i tried some mmo’s for a “cultural” (to try something that everybody is talking about) and “social” reason (to join friends who already liked the genre)
many mmo’s, same end: I quitted as finished exploring-leveling, because i hate any form of increasing numbers and new gear.
diablo 3. wow. path of exile. lotro
everything i tried, ended in…grinding/farming.
every guild i tried was populated by psychologically disturbed people who wasted their lives following best dps, best tier, best achievement…you know. dozen hrs every week.
the common internet gaming addiction.

until a friend of mine linked that kitten ed manifesto.
(you’ll say again: you misunderstood it. anet did it right…etc etc etc.
ok. what do you want. it’s not important here. don’t bother me about it again )
i liked the idea that there was no grinding at all (at least, not for BiS, that i acquired within hours from hitting 80), the fact everything you did gave you exp, so leveling was not a grind. and of course, no real money auction house or payto win, no botters.
“if you don’t like mmo…” we’ll know these words.
just pay the game once, and keep playing.
so i started gw2..leveled till 80 a pair of characters, did part of the storyline, did some dungeons, some world events.
i mainly explored maps, and did events as they found them in the world, coop-ing with everybody i met. just for my love for exploration.
followed living story when i had time.
everything was fine for me.

until the introduction of ascended.
and here we are.
that sense of inferiority. of betrayal if you want.
of course not that childish conditioning you blabla about.

and…if you want to find such conditioning, i think you can see it in the people (wow kids and so on) who asked for it in a game that was supposed to have mainly a horizontal growth.
and when anet satisfied their requests just to have their money..it’s my duty to adapt to it?
this is madness.
nobody said ascended is dumb.
it very smart indeed. it’s a trick to have a pause from horizontal progression while still keeping “carrot boys” online. i just call it with its true name.

and you miss one important thing.
here in italy, we say that “customer is always right”.
it’s not my obligation to bow to what gw2 has become.
but it’s my right to say what i dislike of a product i bought, give a feedback, and quit that game if it ‘s not what i expected from it, or if it revealed different/changed after i bought it. that’s what we’re doing here and now.

again, as i previously said.
no professors here. i’m adult, i know what i want and what i like.
so, @Xenon: do you like VP and ascended?
if you don’t, why?

the term mmorpg is incompatibile with esport.
a game where someone is better than another because of better stats (coming from gear, farm, grind, gold, etc) is not competition.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Didn’t log into the forums for a day, and I walk into this…

Anyways, let’s go over some of the discussion that’s been going on in this thread. I’ll take the arguments apart one by one to make it easier to digest:

Raids should have different levels of difficulty like FotM

No. Raids are hardcore end-game challenges. What’s the point in saying “I beat the first Raid Wing” when someone can say the same thing with an easy button engaged? There should not be the opportunity for everyone to beat a Raid. Either your team is good enough to beat it, or they’re not. Simple as that.

Raids with lower difficulty levels won’t reward as good

It’s not just about the loot. It’s about the accomplishment of actually beating the content. If Anet were to implement easy Raids and hard Raids, you basically kill the content.

I can’t do Raids. I’ll quit the game.

Raids are just one single challenge in an entire game full of Casual friendly content. Just because you can’t complete this 1% of the game, doesn’t mean the other 99% ceases to exist. No one will quit the game just because of Raids.

Designing Raids means Devs have no time for other content

There are multiple teams working on multiple projects at any given time. Once HoT goes live, the team goes right back to designing Cantha making other content. I wouldn’t be surprised if Colin already has people working on the next expansion.

Raids are an MMO trap the Colin promised there wouldn’t be any

No, Raids are just one more type of game play. Don’t like Raids? There are still Dungeons and FotM for you and your party to run.

I’m a Casual gamer, so I can’t play Raids

Not true. Raids are open for anyone to try. It’s not locked away from you. The part that will prove to be difficult is beating the end boss. But failures should encourage you to become a better player, and a better team.

Raids require me to have good gear

Yes. Yes it does. And that’s not a problem at all, since this is end-game Elite level content. If you’re not geared to walk into the hardest content available, then you’re not prepared to win. There’s a Gear Gate, Skill Gate, and a Mastery Gate. Later wings require all three, and then some. Think of it like that sign at the Disneyland rides: You have to be “this” tall to enter.

All true. And "You have to be “this” tall to enter." is exactly where the problem is.

Tozen.9814:

I think everyone is a little too worried about this. ArenaNet has made some poor decisions in the past in my opinion, but they’ve never done anything to deliberately screw over the playerbase in an attempt to make more money. If they tick everyone off, they’ll lose profits, and it’s clear that the devs are pretty passionate gamers too.

I’m all for ANet continuing to think through options to generate more money to fund the development of the game because it means a win for both the company and the players. I would only be upset if they crossed the line and started penalizing players for profit, but as I’ve said, it will be their own grave if they choose to cross that line.

IMHO, there won’t be a subscription fee..would be too like a harakiri.
(and i’m quite the opposite of a fanboy)
well…i hope that news are false….nothing is so sure when depending on anet :o

it’s interesting to notice how ppl are unsatisfied about the game, so that any news is a bad news, and start whining and flaming in the forum.
i think that it should make anet think more about what it’s going on here.
what they did wrong to make players so angry.
and try to go back to what things used to be, when anet still deserved some trust.

Coldtart.4785:

Given that the game was sold on sound bites like ‘Everyone, including casual players, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game’ and ‘no-one finds that [grinding] fun’, I don’t see that they have any reason to exist. How can anyone enjoy working towards something that is based purely on grinding the same content that has existed since launch? How can anyone with even a miniscule amount of skill consider stats worthy of being called a reward?

If you don’t think it’s possible to get people to work towards something other than stats I would like to remind you that there are people that have unlocked every single crafting recipe in the game, despite most of them being irrelevant and that legendaries originally were just PVT exotics with a fancy skin that you had to transmute if you wanted a different stat type; that didn’t stop people grinding for it.

Grind doesn’t have to be for advantage for people to be willing to do it. More power doesn’t have to be on the table for a reward to be worthy of a player’s time.

that’s the perfect translation of what “no grind, no treadmill” means literally.
i hope it will be read from high clergy in anet.
that’s the real love for a game for what it is, and not a korean run towards which surely will be just a transient top of the hill.

a huge +1

progression isn’t always a better gear.

could be something else.
could be elite classes. could be new story modes. skins. mounts. achievements. gold. a house. elite pets. more bag slots. portable bank express
heirloom weapons to level easily other characters.
exp or gold powerups. the cultural armors! (many of them already exist, but are only random drops or need gems)
or simply a better knowledge of gameplay.

anything merely cosmetic that doesnt alter or improve your character’s ingame performance, and doesn’t push you to do something to fight on a par with others.

you say high level fractals is not noobs’ interest. are you sure?
only because i can’t play 10hours a day for months i should have it in a year?
casual is not a b series player. sometimes it’s a lifestyle. a free decision.
not a handicap. only because the typical mmo player plays average 7-8hrs a day…

and that magic moment when you try to dodge but a macro-lag puts you a meter backwards…

Vayne.8563:

Everyone wants to offer commentary, but no one proposes a solution.

there’s MASSIVE horizontal progression thread, which should keep devs busy for years.
and also in this “commentary” thread, many people proposed:
- no more tiers or infusions
- “democratic” methods to get ascended we already have, so that anyone can do what likes more and still get everything needed for the game
ie. good mats from the early levels, so that leveling alts is not a waste of time until 80.
ie. make crafting a choice, not obligatory.
- reduce the grind “feeling”, making everything you do ingame equally useful in progressing your char (just like exp, so that you res a npc or do hearts or do an event, nothing is a waste of time)
- cosmetic items, such as skins-mounts (etc, it’s discussed about elsewhere) instead of more powerful gear

i think there’s so much on anet’s table, that insisting on THAT kitten kind of gear VP is a huge demostration of anet’s greed and unwillingness.

if they really wanted to make ppl like me come back in these months before a virtual horizontal progress., they still can find an easier and more “democratic” way for getting ascended, via other methods than forced crafting.
a quick fix to repair the painful mats gathering that gw1 fans hate.
or add a new tier exotics so to be equal to ascended. maybe without ar slots so that grind necessity is limited to fractals and doesn t touch wvw.

(and then totally stop with tiers and infusions. or they would leave again)

Coulter.2315:

you cannot design a game that will grant the same experience to 12-90 yr olds in all professions in all desired focuses of life.

Exactly, but the problem about it is that they designed and sold the game to someone…and after a while, totally changed direction.

Just make greens, exotics, ascended and legendary the same stats, and balance it all at once.
Leave the difference just in appearance, animations, skins.
Make raids so difficult for anyone that only the most skilled players can finish it..and reward them with rare skins.

So, THIS is no grind for BiS.
Pros have their reward, casuals can’t blame anyone than theirselves and lack of knowledge of game mechanics.
Problem solved.

Any other trick such as BiS/ grind is just a timesink.

Lynne.8416:

The manifesto was released in like 2010 right? The game wasn’t even released until 2012. The game went through changes between beta and release, and the game has made significant changes since release. Therefore, the manifesto is no longer applicable to the game. The manifesto was their intention for the game in 2010. We are now in 2014 and I expect more changes to come. 2 years from now the game could be totally different from today’s version.

mmmmh, no.
alpha/beta changes…is more about technical issues of a game, servers, or new maps, or little (not that little, but not substantial) changes, like timers cooldowns interface AI etc

manifesto is more than it: it’s the “philosophy” behind a game. it’s also about the players’ subpopulation it is advertised for.
it a “hey, we don’t know exactly how many races there will be, or if asura will be uglier than now, but be sure we have these ideas in mind. if you think the same way, follow us”
in fact, they didn’t talk of “concrete” features of the game.
it’s the “guidelines” that are before programming.

so, this is why the "betrayal " they committed is so solemn.
it’s not just a number in a new item. or just a few more hours of game.
it’s both the introduction of heavy grind and gear progression in the same time.
and for me and many others, these (absence of) 2ideals were the only (or nearly it) reasons to buy it instead of a bunch of other mmos.
they did their initial sells just because they guaranteed no grind and no treadmill.

so, there is no excuse. at all

Vayne.8563:

Kevan.8912:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Fixing the availability seems weighted more to two slot types: armor and back pieces.

Fixing the system so VP is kept to a minimal level relies on limiting how much power growth is done in the future. (If not refusing to grow it at all.)

. . . can we all agree on these points?

i think that the “time” and “effort” factors could be a problem also for weapons, which are unlikely drops and, in the facts, require crafting too.
(in my opinion. everything should be available without crafting. as it’s not a work, everybody should be able to obtain what he needs, doing only what he likes more.
it’s a game. real world is tough enough.)

for trinkets and necks, i find it grindy but still “tolerable”.

Vertical Progression: for me, zero tolerance it’s more than enough what we’ve already seen. a big not to everything else which improves stats.
i think that if anets manages to show a real, mature, enjoyable horizontal progression, it could change the whole, grind-ill, life-wasting, mmo world.
and that’s why i bought it.

Actually you’re completely wrong. You can’t say you have zero tolerance for vertical progression. Want to know why?

Because before Anet introduced ascended gear at all….vertical progression was already in this game.

Exotics, rares, and masterwork items all have the same levels, but they’re different tiers of the same gear. That is vertical progression.

You don’t have zero tolerance for vertical progression, or you’d be complaining about exotics.

You have an arbitrary line that Anet crossed and you’re calling it vertical progression. Why are you not complaining about exotic gear?

ok. do what you want with language.
still, i think that if i “misunderstand” everything, you are stuck in semantics, losing the global meaning of what people is complaining about.

no. i m right if i say zero tolerance to vp. or…“that’s enough vp”.
as exotics were there since the launch of the game, and were always easily got after 80. with little to no “aimed” grind.
this doesn’t happen with ascended.
it’s a time and money\resources\amount of work threshold.
and of course, a “stop line” threshold, no more tiers, no more stats.

is this philosophically and philologically correct, prof.Vayne?
of course not.
but still our “arbitrary grind line” exists. and it’s personal one, and nobody has the right to "correct"it.
just express your personal one.