Guild Wars 2

I don’t mind criticism at all! I’ve tried a build very similar to yours but I’ve found the wells to be underwhelming. I’ve waffled between Vital Persistence and Near to Death. The main reason I choose Near to Death is because of it’s synergy with Foot in the Grave. Not being able to pop into DS at the right time is deadly. Also with FiTG and very fast DS recharge it helps immensely against things like engi knockback and hammer warrior.

I will say the weakness of this build is that it doesn’t have a lot of support and if teams get smart and stop focusing me it’s rather useless, but so far even after absorbing 100k worth of damage teams still seem to get tunnel vision and try to burn me down.

I use forge for the protection boost and the survivability boost. 10 seconds of protection is a lot and that triggers for free. The increase in protection duration is great from Spectral Wall as well. I’ve played around with some different runes but Forge seems to make me live the longest.

I quit for about a year, came back recently just to dabble around and I figured I’d finally share my secret with everyone.

I get laughed at when I say I’m a bunker but then when people see the amount of damage this build can soak up I get a lot of tells asking how/what etc.

So here’s the build:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQRAoY3djc0UcbvN22wfbijBRyGfiMwBqnOMIA-TJxHABPXGwgTCAAPBgg2fAA

Basically the way this build works is you generate life force at an insane rate. That’s what the weapon sets are for. Axe 2, Dagger 1, Focus 4 are all huge life force gains. Spectral skills give life force on use and then subsequently generate life force from being attacked.

Spectral Wall is great for both the protection it gives and pulling heat off yourself. (not to mention the life force gain from casting it).

The 400 toughness from channeling is better than you think. Lots of the weapon skills are channeled along with DS 4. It’s a huge boost to your survivability.

There’s no real rotation other than not blowing all your spectral skills at once. Spread them out. Use Spectral Armor first as it will pop again at 50% health. Once life force is full, pop into DS to eat damage. By the time it wears off your spectral skills will be up again. By rotating through the skills you can keep a nearly endless rotation of:

Spectral Skills
DS
Leave DS
Heal
Spectral Skills
DS
Repeat

If you find yourself under huge focus fire this build actually gets even better as you generate LF while getting hit. The more people hitting on you the better. Pop Plagueform when you need a breather in between cooldowns as it will keep you alive enough to generate more LF. As soon as it drops pop into DS.

It’s truly insane the amount of damage this build can soak up. I encourage you all to try it. It’s a lot of fun and makes use of our DS in a very good way.

It doesn’t have a lot of team utility but the stability from FitG is great for stomps, rezzes etc and Spectral Wall is a great team skill.

The best part of it is that teams ALWAYS focus me first thinking I’m power necro and once they start they don’t stop. This gives your team plenty of time to pick them off.

Let me know what you guys think and if you think there are any changes that would make it better. (I’ve played with it a lot and this seems to be the best I’ve found).

Enjoy!

Hmm, lets see, last time I played I think it was MM Necro, Some stupid AI Mesmer build and a flood of engi’s spamming conditions. Turret engineer wasn’t a think back then but it sounds like it’s just more AI playing the game for you. I’m not too hopeful but we shall see!

Thinking about coming back for awhile. Used to play pretty hardcore. PVP is all I do. I left because the game had gotten stale, everyone was running the same builds and it was getting harder and harder to find a structured team.

I main Necro and make a pretty good Thief. I don’t much care for the other classes, but have dabbled with all of them. I don’t know whats changed in the last year.

Has balance gotten better/worse?
Has the meta changed at all?
Are structured teams common, or is it all YOLO Q?

Just curious for some insight from those who stuck around.

Thanks!

I think it’s a generational thing to be honest. I’ve noticed that the older (30+) gamers are usually respectful, competitive people but it’s the kiddies and the upcoming gamer generation that are the trash talkers, noob callers etc. I see it in nearly every game I play and it’s sad.

I’m not qualifying EVERYONE that is young as a trash talker, I’m just saying the problem seems to follow age lines and which generation of gamer people fall in.

While the idea is sound and I surely agree there are a lot of people that need coaching I don’t think charging for this is the right way to go. Genuinely just helping people with builds, play, skills etc can be more rewarding than doing it for profit.

GW2 PvP is not for blowing off steam. If you want a game to get away from aggravation this is not it. The current AI meta, 4v5’s, imbalances etc make it impossible to have a relaxing play experience.

I’m a troll. There’s not much that gives me greater joy then to get an angry whisper after a match from some guy raging about losing or falling for the classic trash talk. As a rule I never start the trash talk though. There’s a difference between being a troll and being a butthead.

I’m pretty sure my blocked list is something impressive. I just wish I could see it so I could show it off like a trophy!

When he’s stealthed your stake misses his heart and doesn’t kill him. There, I’ve answered your question. Now please stop trying to dumb this game down anymore than it’s already become.

Stealth does not mean invulnerability. Use cleave damage when they go into stealth.

Sorry but using stealth to prevent a stomp is both skillful and tactical in play. We don’t need any more dumbing down of this game.

If you miss a stomp due to stealth you have lots of options open to counter play that move. If you’re out of cooldowns that’s not the games flaw.

You got beat. Yes you won the 1v1, great, but his teammate rotated properly and in time and did the right thing to prevent the stomp… you want this punished and taken away?!?

So I’ve been around since 1st Beta. Played with some of the top teams long ago. Took a break for a few months and have been playing mostly Solo Queue lately which is honestly sucking the life out of me (and the fun).

Would like to find a solid team to play with again to put some enjoyment back into this game for me.

I mainly play necro and thief and am pretty darn good with both. I also play guardian and can bunker as well (a bit more rusty with guardian). I’ve got 1600 tournies on Necro, 1200 on Thief and 600 on Guardian so I’m well versed in high level play.

My play times are usually 7pm – 11pm Thurs/Fri/Sat/Sun and every other Monday.

I’m easy to get along with, don’t mind criticism and am fine with trying new strats/ideas. My biggest pet peeve is honestly just really poor play and not learning from mistakes (the reason Solo Queue makes me want to stab myself in the eyeball).

I have all VOIP communications etc.

If you’re interested or looking for a high caliber player then shoot me a tell in game. Happy to run some practice rounds/duel etc.

Talk of 8% reduction for Healing Signet and lowering Ranger elite regen.

These are simple changes. These aren’t game breaking for PvE or PvP so why can’t get get these put in now so that we can see how they affect the game?

I get that things need to go through a series of processes but they are patching the new Living Story update left and right, why can’t we make this simple change now?

ronpierce.2760:

If they did this, then it would be useless. Where’s the compensation for the load of downsides? Where’s our protection, aegis, endurance regen, etc? You know. Stuff that’s also passive bonuses once applied (sometimes not even needing to be applied)… You pretend MM is unique, it’s only unique in its form of play, which is good, but passive benefits are absolutely NOT unique to MM. You, just like any other player who hates “x” build, has a bias and only wants 1 thing, to destroy what you a.) don’t understand and b.) what you don’t like. By that logic boons, conditions, criticals, 80% of the traits and abilities with secondary effects should just not exist.

Why not have the game simplified to block, roll, kick and punch? Oh wait… That’s Street Fighter… Go enjoy. This IS an MMO, and thus not everything has to be streamlined. You just have to adapt and learn to deal with things that annoy you. Not complain until it’s dead. (Which is what usually happens anyways)

One person said it beautifully. MM is a class about strategy and setting up the target for failure, while most classes are built less “strategically” and more based around twitch play and button mashing. I’m not here to say either is wrong, but don’t shoot the other guy because it is how they prefer to play. I can guarantee you good MMs have more to worry about/watch over than just about any class you play, which often boil down to combos, aoe spams and evading a lot. The game isn’t hard, and doesn’t need to be oversimplified because you can’t deal with 1 thing or the other.

Also, to Sorrow, this is why I said drop the Death shroud conversation. We’re misinterpreting what the other is saying entirely. I didn’t say I use it minimally as in rarely use it. I mean I stand in it minimally so that I can use it for twitch reactions and DS abilities on demand. I said this because you were going on and on about huge LF pools, but essentially the only time you sit in your “huge” LF pool is when you’re about to die anyways. If you’re on the winning side of a fight sitting in DS makes you lose traction. Lets just say we’re saying the same thing and fighting about misunderstanding of word choice and leave it at that.

Obviously if they took away the passive benefits I would expect they boost some of the active skills of the minions. I don’t expect a complete gutting of the build, what I want is to see the PASSIVE PLAY taken out. I would like to see that for all builds to be honest.

Where I’m disagreeing with you is in your defense that the build is not a PASSIVE BUILD. I would personally love to see more viable builds for every class. What I can’t stand to see and personally feel is part of the decline of PvP is that Anet has started shifting toward more and more passive abilities. This is stupid and the unskilled masses will flock to AI builds because it requires very little on their part.

MM is passive anyway you look at it. Understand I’m not calling you a bad player. I’m saying the MM build is an AI controlled passive build that is a “bit” too strong for the low skill ceiling required to play it.

My bias isn’t towards MM but it’s with ALL AI builds. I have had the exact same feelings and discussions about Phantasm Mesmer and Spirit Ranger as well. People defending those builds is what I find funny. Don’t defend something that requires no skill to play. You might be good at it and it might fit your play style but at least acknowledge and be willing to say that it doesn’t require very much thought or skill to play since the AI is doing the work.

All this arguing back and forth is silly.

You simply can’t argue with the fact that MM falls into the passive build category. You have passive healing coming from Blood Fiend and siphons and you have passive damage that comes from all the minions. You can’t say it’s not a passive build because you still get to click some buttons from time to time. Stop trying to defend the build as anything but.

If Anet was smart and wanted to leave MM as a viable option without it being a brain dead no skill build then they would take away the passive healing/passive attacks and make it so that minions ONLY interact when their skill is triggered. Make it so that minions don’t absorb any damage or count towards AoE cap and don’t intercept projectiles.

Then and ONLY then would this build not be considered something lame and for the skill-less masses.

ronpierce.2760:

The funny thing about this is in a moving pvp environment, its not that simple if you play one. Its senseless QQ because people have no clue how it works. Its an easy build to be “okay” with because it does damage if you don’t attack, but given its weaknesses (No cc breaks, lack of control of pets, terrain, you know stuff you have to deal with versus good players) MM requires a hell of a lot of skill to play correctly. For instance, each summon has a long cast time mid-fight, making it hard to get off versus good players and they are essential to even staying alive because without them you just simply die. They also have an ability tied to each. Then we have death shroud, 5 moves there and 2 weapon swaps. That puts MM at upward 26 abilities versus many classes 16-18 they have to use regularly. Plus we have to manage our Life force because without it we lose basically any defenses against stuns (doom and Life force absorbing damage).

What makes MM powerful isn’t the pets doing damage, that’s avoidable. What makes them powerful is the amount of CC they can do (BY PRESSING BUTTONS), allowing their pets to be useful, plus adding on Dagger/Axe damage, they can do decent damage themselves. If you die to an MM running circles you’re terrible, sorry to say. Minions do like 200-300 damage hits, and 4 of them require them to be in melee range, and can be snared. Phantasms can land hits as big kitten -6k, on top of stealth, Phantasmal defender, pseudo Healing Signet etc.

Is it a little cheap? Sure. I’d rather do 50% more damage and my pets do 50% less. That’d be great! Then I’d still be worth having around if moa’d or my pets die to the insane amount of (apparently skillful?) aoe spam and other garbage.

In other words. MM may be a little cheap, but any good one will tell you it’s not brainless/skill-less as it takes more button coordination than most set ups. Only people who have no clue what they’re talking about can say that it’s skill-less. The bigger problem is that the entire pvp system in GW2 does nothing but promotes cheesy playstyles because the only legit ones get pushed out of the meta because cheese and easy playing is better than having to jumping through hoops just to perform decently. This, on top of the fact that the game simply looks like spam anyways, it gives the false impression that the MM does nothing but spam.

And the last little tid-bit, if an MM is running circles a lot in a team fight its because they have 0 cc breaks or survivability when locked down, so yeah, they kinda have to run. But when they’re running in circles they’re doing 50% of the damage they could be and FAR less CC than they could be, all of which needs the necromancer to actually be doing their job for.

That’s a ridiculous argument. Saying MM have more skills to use so it makes them harder is just silly. They have more skills because they are a Necro so yes, they have access to DS which gives them additional buttons.

The weaknesses you list are the weakness of any class that doesn’t bring stun breaks. While minions may have bad pathing, if you’re sitting on a point the pathing matters little at all.

Again managing life force is something any necromancer has to do.

The problem most certainly IS that it’s a brainless build. Understand I’m not calling YOU brainless. I’m saying the build is. I understand it’s your favorite build and you’ve been playing it longer than most, but that doesn’t mean that you have to cease using logic and reasoning and start defending it.

All of your arguments for it are simply false. Minions when specced properly hit like trucks. The amount of CC the build brings is simply for that, to immob someone so the minions can swarm them. It brings PASSIVE damage and PASSIVE healing. Sure the player can click buttons, but the build revolves around PASSIVE AI doing everything for you (i.e, healing, damage, CC, blocking projectiles etc).

I have over 1500 tournies on Necro alone so I can pretty much guarantee you I have a pretty good idea what I’m talking about here and although I know you don’t like to hear it because it’s your favorite build, it’s simply true that MM necro, along with Spirit ranger, Phantasm Mesmer etc are unfortunately builds that don’t require a lot of skill because you are letting the PASSIVE computer controlled AI do most of the work for you.

Unfortunately Anet listens to the masses, and they want easy to play builds that reward them for putting in the least amount of work possible to get positive results. There’s a reason that tournaments are littered with Spirit rangers, MM necros, Phantasm Mesmers and Hambow warriors now and it isn’t because in the right hands they give people a solid class that can excel with skillful play.

It’s not the strength of MM, it’s the mindlessness of it. Having AI play the game for you is NOT conducive to stimulating PVP. Hiding behind minions while they block ranged attacks, running in circles while they do damage brings very little skill to the table and that’s what frustrates people. It’s not that the build is OP because it isn’t, it’s that any noob can pick up the build and be half way decent at it because they don’t actually have to PLAY the game. Run in circles, let minions do the playing for you.

It’s the same with Phantasm Mesmer and Spirit Ranger. Hambow warrior is mindless because the stupid amount of healing/regen means you don’t have to worry about making mistakes.

This game has catered to the dumb downed builds that require less and less input from the player. What’s sad is that all these people that like these builds are defending them.

AI controlled builds should NEVER be as strong as builds that require a person to actually think and react to combat.

The problem is how they are attempting to fix the issue. Dishonor is good in theory. The less people that rage quit matches the better. Understandably disconnects will happen which is why they don’t just ban you for your first offense.

I experienced the lag last night as well. As soon as I realized it was making the game unplayable (and it wasn’t on my end) then I logged out to go play something else.

The problem is that AFK’ers will always happen. It’s nothing to just AFK for a match (you have to AFK for like 5 minutes before you get DC’d) so from my understanding, if you move at all you won’t get the AFK disconnect. Also I’ve seen lots of people just find a wall and auto run into it the entire match to avoid the penalty.

I’m all for punishing people for rage quitting and ruining a game for 9 other people. I’m ok with the occasional DC costing you dishonor as well otherwise people would abuse this.

The solution is supremely easy and I don’t know why Anet won’t implement it. A Ready button at the start of a match before it pulls everyone into the tourny. Anything less than 10 readies and it finds a new player. Use this while maintaining the current dishonor system and most of the problems will be fixed. Then it’s just figuring out how to solve the AFK player auto-running into a wall issue.

Actually, with flesh golem elite and Lyssa runes you do have stability. With spectral armor you get a stun break and with proper use of fear, immobs, wells and chills you can avoid pressure fairly well.

Life force generation is also through the roof which adds to survivability a lot. Your argument isn’t really sound because any class that only brings one stun break/invuln would suffer the same problem. I’d argue that a condi necro is at an even larger disadvantage due to much less life force generation.

Power necro also brings insane amounts of cleave damage which is also needed in tournies.

I play in tournies all the time with this build and it’s quite effective I assure you.

Anyway, I’m not here to defend the build or to try and teach people how to play it properly.

Jackalrat mentioned he never saw anyone use the weapon set without being deep into minionmancy. I was simply pointing out that in fact that weapon set without minions is quite adept at beating minion masters. I’ll remind people that I said “most”. There are some really good MM necro’s out there (although I despise the build and think it epitomizes all that is wrong with this game right now) who I have had trouble with.

Sorry I don’t record. I’ll do my best to explain though:
30/10/0/0/30 build.
Dagger/Focus
Axe/Warhorn
Zerker Ammy
6 Lyssa Runes

Well of Suffering, Spectral Armor and whatever your preference is. I’ve been using Well of Corruption lately. Bone minions, spectral wall, etc all fit in nicely. I use Flesh Golem as elite.

What people don’t realize is this build can put out INSANE damage. I mean probably the most of any class out there.

Throw focus up close, it bounces like 3 times at 1.5k each hit, immob with dagger 3, drop both wells, instantly pop DS (for the increased crit), DS 2 for chill so they can’t escape, fear and lifeblast til dead.

Lifeblasts in this build hit for 5k on squishies and about 2.5k on heavy. The burst with wells is incredibly strong. Survivability comes from the rapid life force generation along with the CC of Doom and Warhorn. You have Flesh Golem knockdown, immob from dagger, immob from DS 5, Chill from focus, cripple from axe etc. It’s a beast to fight against.

Condi’s aren’t an issue with heal and full Lyssa rune set.

This will beat condi necros because you have two full condi clears and they can’t outdo your damage. As soon as you get in close it’s over.

Minion masters aren’t too bad either because the wells will wreck the minions and again, once you get in close it’s over.

What about range? Axe is decent, it’s not the highest DPS but it makes up for the weakness by giving you some range and still hitting hard. Lifeblast is also your ranged attack although it does a lot more damage up close.

People don’t realize how strong power necro can be. I’m ok with that as I enjoy it not being the flavor of the month.

Jackalrat.5493:

Dunno if this has been said, but you know what -really- destroys MM necros?

Nade engineers. Oh man, they just clear your pets in about 12 seconds or so, and you’re screwed~

Edit: I also want to say the reason I play MM is because dagger and axe builds without pets are just terrible, but they’re by far my preferred weapons. I have yet to ever see a necro doing well with those weapons who wasn’t deep into minionmancy.

You obviously haven’t tried power necro with Dagger/Focus and Axe/Warhorn. I can beat “most” MM’s and Condi necros with power necro without bringing anything other than Flesh Golem minion wise and nothing put into minion traits .

I think for the sake of simplicity and for the benefit of those who may not have the same amount of experience as some of the more tenured players we should keep this simple and go back to the original point.

Yes there are situations where pushing far is beneficial and the right call, however in Solo Queue, when your team controls two points it’s best to just defend and not push far point.

This post was to educate players on proper strategy and to point out one of the biggest mistakes I see new players make.

Since the post I’ve had a couple games that were vastly different:

1) Enemy team’s thief pushes far right off the start. We had two people there (one capping, one rotating through) and the thief, seeing it’s a 1v2 charges in and dies in about 5 seconds. We won home and mid easily. The thief continued to push far the entire match dying over and over again. I asked him why he was doing that and suggested perhaps his DPS would be more beneficial in a team fight. His response was the classic “I held up two of your guys at far so they could cap mid, they suck because they didn’t cap mid”.

2) Our team pushes mid from the beginning with one sent to home. We win the mid fight. Someone starts pushing far. I mention in team chat to please just defend our two points. He stops, comes back to mid and we farm the other team who is streaming into mid 1-2 at a time. They got so frustrated they said we were zerging the map when in fact we never left mid/home. We won that match something like 500-200. It wasn’t even close. It was a blowout because proper strategy was used for Solo Q.

This thread isn’t to debate the benefits of pushing far. It’s to educate newer players to a glaring error they make in Solo Q and it’s my hope that people will get a little better in their thinking and play which makes Solo Q better for all.

Love seeing some of the ego’s come out here but for the sake of being educational, I’m going to just ignore the troll posts.

There ARE times when its ok to push far. I didn’t say NEVER push far. I said when your team controls 2 points, don’t push far point. It spreads you out too thin and almost always leads to the opposing team recapping mid and their point.

Redlion, to answer your question, any class with high mobility can be used to neutralize far point if it’s left completely unguarded. The caution here is to go, neutralize and get back to the team fight as quickly as possible. It’s very difficult for people to neutralize a point and not want to cap it all the way for some reason, but that time spent actually capping it could mean the difference in the team fight/defending of mid/home point.

Pushing far from the beginning of the match is a viable strategy, however it takes the entire team to know how to pull it off correctly. Pushing far from the start should only be used in order to cause the opposing team to over rotate from mid thus allowing you to cap mid and holding home/mid after that.

Again, I’ll remind you that this is for solo queue and not team queue as the organization and team cohesion in team queue makes a world of difference and can allow for far point assault.

Mike.4830:

Yall are clueless, If a player pushes far and wins, your team should still have 4 mid because your backpoint should rotate mid. If the player pushes far wins he will either insure a 2 cap no matter what happens at mid (which should be 4v4) and possibly cause 2 players to come and deal with the player pushing far thus creating a 3v4 mid which your team should win. THE MAIN problem is when someone pushes far and sucks or they push far but your backpoint doesnt rotate mid cause he doesnt understand rotations. This causes your team to be 4v3 mid and lose the fight. And once that teamfight is lost that team can rotate extra players home and wipe the player pushing far regardless of his success at far.

This is the problem. It’s thinking like this that fails in Solo Queue. If you have a highly coordinated team then a push to far “can” succeed, however Solo Queue is far from organized. It’s people with this kind of thinking that ruin it for the rest of their team. Pushing far and then blaming your home point bunker (very rare for solo q) is what most people that push far do. There is no reason to push far when you hold two points. If you want to make your opening push to far and one to home that’s possible but again requires a strong home point bunker and a team that doesn’t tunnel vision as most solo q players will use all 4 people to smash the one guy at far point while the other team caps mid and destroys your home point bunker because 4 people got tunnel vision and spent too much time killing the one guy at far point.

People that defend the strategy and continue to push far are the problem. 1v1’ing a guy on far point while the hold the point is simply wrong if you hold the other two points. Even if they rotate a guy to far to 2v1 you, you die and now they have the numbers at mid to win mid back.

Again, you CAN push far in organized team play or for the initial push, but in solo q it’s a bad idea due to lack of team cohesion and ability to call numbers quickly.

You gave the perfect example of a guy that pushes far and then blames the other 4 guys on his team for losing mid/home when in reality, if you had been a team player and worked with the rest of your team the results could be drastically different.

The biggest problem Qaelyn is that people think that pushing far is the right choice. Just because someone may have won a 1v1 and taken far does not mean it was the right move and in general it is not.

There ARE times when pushing far is the right move. It being left completely unattended would be one of those, however this should only be done by a class with high mobility (thief) and should never attempt to be defended once capped. It’s also quite reasonable to just neutralize far if left open and not stand around for the cap while your team is getting outnumbered at mid.

I’m not saying that pushing far is ALWAYS bad, but 99% of the time in solo q it’s the wrong choice and causes teams to lose due to this grievous mistake. People that think they know better, players that don’t listen to their team and act selfishly are a big part of this mentality of “I’ll push far if I want”.

My hope is to cause some of those people to reconsider and work with their team more. By hopefully explaining the reasoning behind why this is a bad move they will correct this error and Solo Queue will become a happier place.

One of the biggest mistakes I see people make (and one of the most frustrating) is to be on a team that captures two points and then watch as one or two guys goes traipsing off and pushing far point.

I’ve repeatedly tried to explain why this is bad but I get yelled at, cussed at, called names etc for trying to explain proper strategy so I figured maybe coming here and explaining would help just one person get better and not make this critical error.

Here’s a couple scenarios:
(Disclaimer, this is Solo Queue only, I know these are NOT the best scenarios, I’m just going with what is most common in Solo Queue)

A) Usually after the opening battle when you cap the first two points many of the opposite team are down and respawning. When you go pushing far with only 1 or 2 people you invariably will be outnumbered at their point and wiped. This then puts your team at a numbers disadvantage allowing for them to push mid and win it easily.

B) You are fighting a 1v1 on a point that they control, this accomplishes nothing for your team. They send the rest of their team mid where it is now a 4v3 (assuming in solo Q you have someone sitting on home point or roaming). They win mid and are now able to either push far, or come back to their home point to kill the person trying the 1v1.

C) You push your teams far point and they push their teams far point (A and C). You are 1v1’ing someone while they obliterate your person defending home point because they didn’t get any help in defending.

Here’s the issue. When your team controls two points, this is what you want. You have killed several of their players who in solo q are likely streaming out one by one. If your team were to actually defend your points this would put you at a numbers advantage and likely lead to more successful kills and defenses of your controlled points. If your team spreads out all over the map, you have no cohesion and with the lack of communication in solo q it usually leads to people getting caught and killed.

I will fully acknowledge that in highly coordinated team play that pushing the far point can disorganize a defending team causing them to become distracted trying to defend their only point which is a huge win for your team if this works, however this strategy absolutely does not work in solo q.

I have tried explaining this to people who push far repeatedly all much only to lose 1v1’s at far, cause their team to lose team fights at mid, not be able to defend home etc.

I’ve heard responses and reasoning such as:
“I pulled one of their guys out of the main fight for you”
“I had two of them fighting me at their point for 30 seconds before I died so you guys should be able to defend mid”
“If I push far it means we can cap that when we lose home/mid”

I get that people want to win 1v1’s and test themselves against other players etc. Please remember that when you join a tourny you are joining as part of a TEAM. Please remember to act like that and work as a team, not off going rogue and losing the match for the other 4 people that are putting their trust in you.

TL;DR:
If you’re playing solo q and your team controls two points, please stop pushing far point, wiping and giving the other team the ability to easily recap points.
(oh yeah, and when people explain why, please stop yelling at them with really bad logic).

How about not contributing to the sad state of passive play in this game and not playing that? You listed Spirit Ranger, MM and now Phantasm Mesmer. This is where this game went wrong.

I know this topic has been brought up before but I’d like to really get an idea of where our developers stand on this issue and what the thoughts are behind it.

I just got done with a match where there was a MM necro, spirit ranger and hammer warrior (running healing signet).

We had an AFK’er to start the match so we had some time to discuss things in map chat.

Some words were said in map chat about the number of “Passive builds” on the opposing team. This led to a discussion and some vehement denial that certain builds were “passive builds”.

It made me realize that this game has come to a crossroads of sort where there are a lot of players that enjoy and want passive builds. I get that it caters to a lower skill set and that it is much more accommodating to players that may not be able to play at a higher level. At first I was sort of surprised that anyone would actually defend this sort of game play but then it made me realize that there probably are a lot of players out there that don’t want to have to work as hard to be good at this game.

I know there are a lot of players (mostly “old school” ones) who are very opposed to the turn that balance and builds have taken with this focus on more and more passive play, AI builds etc. I myself feel it takes away from the excitement of the game, waters down the combat mechanics that set this game so far apart from others and leads to a dangerous road where more and more balance is done using passive abilities.

My question is how do the devs feel about this? I was surprised to realize a lot of the player base is actually for passive builds and AI but I suppose there is a following there.

Do the developers want this game to continue down this road where passive play is the norm, passive traits and skills are how they balance classes etc? Are the developers happy with how much passive play exists right now? Do they see it as a problem or a benefit?

I’d like to hear from the players as well. For those that are for it, why? What is it about the AI and passive skills that make combat fun? What is it that draws you to this type of combat? I feel as if I know why those opposed to it are opposed, but if anyone has constructive thoughts I’d love to hear them.

I feel like the combat in this game approached a big crossroads when passive play became such a popular thing and I’m curious if the developers and intent is to continue down that road or to turn away from it? I honestly feel like there is no way to obtain both and have balance in this game.

The problem with bringing classes up is called power creep. If you constantly increase classes to equal levels then before you know it the game is nothing but 1 shot kills. Anet has said repeatedly that they want to avoid power creep and instead just shave down what is OP at the time.

While I think the reasoning is sound, I just wish they’d be willing to shave a little more often instead of once every 2-3 months.

IT says increases crit chance of 1h weapons by 15%. With the new tool tips it shows for the first weapon slot but not the 2nd (offhand). Is it intended that this skill only affects the mainhand weapon? It would seem to me based off the description that it should also affect the offhand as this is where a lot of damage can come from (i.e. torch).

Is this working as intended, a bug, or just the tool tip not showing the increase crit chance?

Nerfing the cannon in same way. At the very least make it dodgeable. The map is just horrible for solo Q as numerous posts have made you guys aware. If you don’t want your hard work going to waste (which I completely understand) then please do the next best thing and make some minor tweaks to the map to at least make it enjoyable. Nerfing the effect of the cannon would be a great place to start.

Pretty sure whining about thieves was circa 4-5 months ago. If you’re angry enough to come make a whine post chances are it’s you and not the class.

Sorry, that’s not “Game Breaking” so you must wait until the next large PvP patch which will be in 6 months time. Until then we are “working on it”.

Seisyll.5914:

Kryshade.6075:

I can’t tell if you guys are joking or not. The amount of passive abilities with ranger along with evades, healing, regen, toughness etc is just ridiculous. It’s one reason rangers have pretty much always had a spot as back point defender/far point assault. Making one mistake as a ranger is about as forgiving as you can get.

If you’re complaining about not having stability and stun breakers than ooohhh, I dunno, how about actually using one? The fact that rangers as a class have been able to get away with NOT using one for so long should go to show you how tough they are. Sorry but this thread made me /facepalm.

Show me the passive abilities, because as far as I know they either need to be taken all together for them to work, or they require specific conditions.
As for stability/stun breakers. We have them, the only problem is that to make our few limited builds work we just can’t take them. And oh our only stability is from ulti which needs 2min to recharge, this or we buff ourselves 30 in power trait line to make one of our signets give us this stability. But doing that makes us unviable cause power don’t stack so well on ranger.

About evades, yes we have them. But so the other classes. Also we have to remember when to use them and what to counter and we can’t do this forever (don’t bring GS as the only thing it is used for is running), not like evade/invis spamming thiefs.

About heal and regeneration? Again it is a specific bunker build.
Toughness? Stacked because of bunkers and it doesn’t help in the condition spam.

We are playing that way because we are forced to, not because we like it

Ok, how about the pet, regen when traited, condi clear when traited, spirits, traps and just about everything else that rangers use. They are one of the most passive classes in the game which is why they are so popular.

Rangers get evades but unlike other classes, if you miss one because of all the other passive buffs it doesn’t mean instant death like it does for a thief.

So you mean that your saying the problem with stability is that it doesn’t fit well into your build because it means you have to take an ulti or trait for it. Sorry but that’s nearly every class except for guardians and warriors. Ever tried playing a necro before? Talk about lack of stability. I have to laugh at you saying that the need to take a stun breaker or stability hurts your precious builds because that’s true across the board.

Heal and regen are NOT specific to a bunker build and that’s part of the problem. The insane regen on a balanced/hybrid/dps ranger is just wrong.

This was one of the worst arguments I’ve seen someone make. Sorry but you’re just plain wrong my friend. Saying rangers don’t have a lot of passive skills/play is laughable at best.

I can’t tell if you guys are joking or not. The amount of passive abilities with ranger along with evades, healing, regen, toughness etc is just ridiculous. It’s one reason rangers have pretty much always had a spot as back point defender/far point assault. Making one mistake as a ranger is about as forgiving as you can get.

If you’re complaining about not having stability and stun breakers than ooohhh, I dunno, how about actually using one? The fact that rangers as a class have been able to get away with NOT using one for so long should go to show you how tough they are. Sorry but this thread made me /facepalm.

I saw your thread and honestly found it amusing because you simply didn’t know. It does however take a certain level of maturity to admit when you are wrong and be man enough to apologize.

Well if a target is stunned, wouldn’t it be defenseless?

Bumping this: Still looking for a solid team!

Some truly great responses here. I’ll throw my opinion into the mix here as well.

1) CC – every game needs CC. It adds a dynamic to game play and is seriously needed. However, too much CC becomes an issue because taking away the ability of a player to control his character is not fun. CC should be quick firing with a long cooldown. You could make it so that if there is no “interrupt” that the skill then has a shorter cooldown if you want. It needs to be strategic in it’s use, not something that is spammed or chained.

2) Conditions – Conditions are such a problem right now for 2 reasons. First, there is no defense against them. There is no “toughness” equivalent for conditions and thus it makes them the best option for killing people. Some will say vitality is a way to attempt to soak up condition damage but vitality comes at the cost of damage and/or toughness and really isn’t a “defense” against condi’s. There needs to be a stat that reduces condi damage like toughness does for direct damage. 2nd is the prevalance of damaging conditions. Multiple classes should not all have access to the bleeding/poison/burning/confusion etc. When this occurs there is A) no class diversity and no reason to not stack condi classes on a team.

3) AI and Passive Gameplay – Spirit rangers, Phantasm Mesmers, Turret Engi’s (ok they aren’t that strong) and MM Necros (to a lesser degree because minion AI is just plain horrible). There is nothing challenging nor fun about passive gameplay. Take these pets and get rid of them (I get that rangers need a pet, one is fine). They only serve to detract from engaging gameplay and make targeting and team fights a pain. Enhance other skills and create new ones (ranger shouts instead of spirits?) that allow for more active gameplay and less passive play.

4) Balance – for the love of all that enjoy this game, give us a public test server. There are people that have great ideas, give good feedback and are willing to spend time testing things that may or may not make it into the game. I see no reason at all other than some sense of warped pride or stubborness as to why Anet as a company will not trust it’s players in this regard. This game needs a PTR to help ensure the balance that Anet states they desire so much. I know there are internal testers and players that are invited to test changes, but I can tell you from the last patch (that made necro’s and condi’s so OP) that obviously they are either biased or there aren’t enough of them. Trust your player base, lose your ego and allow players to help you in the areas you need help.

I love this game. I want to see it succeed, but I think there needs to be an overall change of attitude by Anet and the developers if they are to help this game succeed. My opinion is that the above points are the serious things that take away from the “fun” of the game.

Hmm, I noticed this too on my thief. Seems like my skills have a longer aftercast or something like that. Thought it was just me being crazy but apparently not.

I think classes should matter. I think each class should excel at something so that teams are forced to make smart choices. I think that team support should be a viable option. I think a team should have to balance taking out a high DPS class vs a class that is going to strengthen the whole team. Right now too many teams are forced into whatever class is OP at the time and there is no place in competitive high level play for a “support” class that actually makes a difference. Multiple builds, multiple classes = multiple strategies and that is what this meta is lacking right now.

Hopefully you’ve heard of me, or I’ve heard of you, if not then a little about myself:

I’m looking for a serious, competitive team. I’ve been playing since beta and main a thief and necro. I’ve literally done nothing but pvp since the game released and it’s all I’m looking for.

I’ve played on high level teams and I’m looking to get back into one. I’m a huge proponent of communication, team work and the ability to adapt/respond to different situations. While I am best at thief and necro I’m willing to play any class if it’s for the right team.

Play times are usually Mon/Tue/Thur/Fri/Sat/Sun from about 7:30-11pst.

I’ve got a great attitude, I’m good at my classes and I’m always willing to listen to feedback and ideas. I expect a team to communicate, be great at the fundamentals (team fighting, rezzing, rotations etc) and always get better.

I get along with everyone, have a soothing sexy voice for VOIP and I never rage. I am however competitive and I play to win which is my goal.

I’m happy to try out, duel or whatever so if you’re interested please PM me here or shoot me a tell in game.

Thanks!

vicious.5683:

Don’t repeat anything you don’t think by yourself.

if you nerf Dhuumfire, you pigeon hole EVERY SINGLE NECRO in the game to run Terror.

Wrong because you can nerf the duration/proc rate of burning and still have lots of viable builds come from that. Even power builds benefit from burning as it still has high damage even with low condition damage. If you nerf terror you destroy the build completely (fears are already limited to 1-2 seconds) or you force everyone to run burning. I get your point but unfortunately your argument doesn’t work here.

It’s simple really. Just adjust burning to a level where it isn’t our primary source of damage but fits in with all the other condi’s on a nice level and you’ve solved the QQ while still maintaining build diversity.

A nerf to burning is the perfect solution. I agree with you Ostrich that necros need burning, but if you want to temper the class, then temper the thing that makes them too strong and thats how often and how long they can keep burning up.

Burning is why everyone is crying OP and while I agree it’s a combination of everything else with burning, none of the other buffs were ground breaking for the class.

Nerf the proc rate or the duration on burn and you solve the problem.

I’ll repeat what others have said because it bears a lot of weight and is very important to the class. If you nerf terror, you pigeon hole EVERY SINGLE NECRO in the game to run Dhuumfire.

That’s how the game should be played in my opinion. Wanting to have fun and enjoying the excitement of it. Even if you had lost that would have been an enjoyable match. Nice to not hear raging etc.

Congrats!

Sorry Ostrich but I have to disagree with you on a couple things. I do agree necro’s need some tweaking so this isn’t a don’t nerf them response, it’s a do it properly response.

So here’s the thing:
1) Terror hasn’t changed much. Very little in fact. The problem isn’t terror in itself because necro’s always had access to this with the same durations as before. The .5 second buff to doom doesn’t give another tick to a terror necro so it remains unchanged.

2) Torment. Great addition to the class, viable utility (the immob is awesome) and a little extra damage and another condition to prevent bleeds from getting insta-wiped. A great addition to the class and what was needed.

3) Burning. The addition of both Torment and burning is where the problem lies. You now have two additional condi’s to prevent easy clearing and you now have access to the one of the highest damage conditions in the game, and at a fairly consistent interval due to it being in the condition duration line. This is where the problem lies. Now I will say a burning necro is a glass cannon and I think this offsets that some but it’s still too easily available and lasts too long.

The solution here is to nerf burning. Terror was around before and has remain unchanged. The problem is coupled with a very high uptime on burning people view it as OP now when it’s the access to burning that is the problem. I don’t think that necros shouldn’t have ANY access to burning, but it should be brought down on how often and how easily they can apply it.

Pre-patch necros wanted a way to stay in the fight, a way to disengage and a way to not have bleeds stripped off instantly as this was the major problem with the class. What we got instead was 2 more conditions that are easy to apply and do significant damage coupled with the same amount of CC (fear) they used to have.

I have to completely disagree with your assessment of DS. What the class needs is the ability to use our class mechanic to stay in a fight and/or engage/disengage. Torment helped in the engage department but necros still have no way to get out of a fight. We are the ONLY class that doesn’t have instant access to our sole class mechanic. Many necro’s have fought for a way to have lifeforce at the start of a match in order to allow us to use our mechanic at the beginning of a match when the most crucial team fight occurs. Nerfing DS in anyway completely nerfs every build a necro can run.

Necros’ want more sustainability. We need to be able to stay in a fight and have some way to survive focus fire. We have very limited stun breaks and that is the biggest counter to a necro.

My solution to the class is to nerf burning (or take it away completely, I honestly wouldn’t care) and give necros more of a way to stay in the pocket. As the defined “attrition class” that means the longer a necro is in a fight, the more the fight should swing in the favor of the necro. Right now it simply isn’t that way. It’s either blow everything and melt your opponent (which is happening) or get blown up (not happening much anymore as the meta has moved away from power burst).

Nerfing DS would be a huge mistake in my opinion and gut the class. Nerf the condi spike, buff the sustainability/survivability and necro’s would be in a perfect spot.

If you nerf Dhuumfire you’re destroying hybrid builds that don’t use terror.
Dhuumfire its ok on engis as a 10 point trait but its OP on necros as a 30 points trait? Lol

Except that hybrid/burning necros are the ones that everyone is QQing about. No one is complaining about a standard terror/condi necro because those existed in the exact same form pre-patch as they did post-patch. We’re talking about addressing the build that everyone is crying about and that build is the hybrid 30/30/10 necro. It would make sense to address this particular build but slightly toning down burning. You can still have that build be very viable by slightly reducing the duration and/or proc rate without destroying the build. You nerf terror duration/damage etc and you are then completely destroying the terror build (which isn’t the problem in the first place).

I’m guessing the thought is that staff mesmers are already fairly tanky in their ability to warp. Adding 5 secs of protection on a very easily self combo’d field along with their elusiveness was probably why. I’m no mesmer and I don’t think mesmers needed any nerfs, but very quick, repeated access to protection isn’t something a lot of classes have.

Nerfing terror is simply not the problem. I don’t see how you guys can think that terror is the issue here. Terror existed pre-patch in the exact same form. Everyone is complaining about burning and how necros can drop everyone around them. This is due to the addition of burning, not terror. Terror damage has always existed in the same form. If you nerf terror you are pigeon-holing every single necro into now running 30/30/10 because it will be the ONLY viable build.

If you nerf the duration or the proc rate of burning you tone necros down to the proper level while still maintaining both builds as viable builds. Ideally I’d like to see some sort of control over how burning is applied. That would add to the skill level of the necro in how they manage their spike.

The complaints of everyone in regards to necro are not because of terror damage. The complaints are because once a necro has dropped burning on you every 5 seconds and then they fear you you can’t do anything about it (well you can, but people complain you can’t).

I’ve already seen people adapt to necros in tournies. People have learned to stun break the fears, focus the necro and start bringing more stability.

I’ll say it again. Nerf the proc rate and/or duration of burning and you tone necros down just the right amount. Nerf terror and you destroy a viable non-OP build and force everyone to then roll 30/30/10/0/0.

My issue with some of these suggestions is that burning is what made people feel necro is now OP. You don’t balance burning by nerfing something necros have always had and that’s terror. Terror has not changed since the patch and thus doesn’t need any tweaking in my opinion.

The problem lies with burning and how it was implemented. Its extremely easy to apply burning to foes using Rabid Ammy as the crit chance with that is high. The burn duration along with an easy way to apply it means its almost always up and this is the problem.

Adjust burning’s duration or application and you’ve solved the problem without nerfing other specs that have existed for quite some time. I just don’t see focusing all this effort into adjusting terror when it’s burning that is the problem here. Some necros want burning, I’m fine with that. I think the trade off is that they are glass but if you want to tone them down without sacrificing build diversity then simply adjust burning. Give it a 20 second ICD on procs, give it a 2 second duration (adjusted for condi duration) etc. You then create the ability to “condi spike” occasionally without the class being a faceroll spam all AOE’s and hope for victory type class.