Showing Posts For Moises.2196:
the only problem i found was that the range of the weapon by kneeling is not increased, you sould get at least 300 ranged from kneeling
It does, that huge circle you see further away is the 1.5k range threshold.
yep
I like it. It’s not supposed to be mobile. Stop trying to make it a daredevil with long range damage. Some things need QoL improvements, but the general design is good for what it is supposed to be.
Not trying to make it mobile like daredevil. You would still have to kneel to gain access to the kneel skills on the rifle. I’m saying let us move and break kneel and use the ammunition functionality to balance it out. If you kneel and are instantly pressured because you didn’t set it up right at a safe distance, then you get the option to break it but loose the real heavy hitting skills. If it’s too strong this way than reduce the damage or use the ammunition system to force better timing and positioning. If people feel that it isn’t reliable then they won’t use it unless the damage is jacked to ridiculous numbers. Even if they can move and break kneel, another thief/daredevil or whatever melee class that gets in their face will still have the advantage because the mobile skills on rifle are weak and slow(as they should be) and would force the thief to go on the defense and blow resources just to open up a safe gap, or swap to a melee weapon and fight back, but then loose their mobility and decap potential from not having short bow. I don’t want it to be op, I just want it to be viable in a competitive setting.
Weapon stow works to break kneel.
yep but it is very cluncky….
Yeah weapon stow is not one of my first reactions when a daredevil jumps on my face while kneeling. The whole class feels great except for the kneeling on rifle. They have an ammunition system with rifle 5, I think they should let us break kneel by moving and balance it with the ammo count or recharge. This would give us a more fluid play with the rifle. It’s a better more simple solution than increasing the dps of the weapon or completely changing a skill or trait and trying to see if it broke something else.
It feels way to clunky.
This right here is the main problem for me. It just doesn’t feel right with the way gw2 plays and especially for thief, the most fluid and quick class in the game. Single skills that root the player like hundred blades on war work because you can break it or cast another skill in a moments notice. If they can make it feel smooth than most of the problems go away in my opinion. I honestly think allowing us to break kneel with normal movement would be the easiest and most effective solution. They honestly don’t even have to add a 5th skill on the kneel 5 since the weapon set already has so many skills attached to it.
I think the ammunition system does what it needs to balance kneel perfectly by restricting how many times you can go into kneel, but not being able to move out of harms way without pressing 5 on rifle is what gives the weapon set all the hate that it deserves. The damage on it in my opinion is good, but not good enough considering how vulnerable we are in the kneel state. I think by letting us break kneel by moving would give us what we need and avoid adding more damage making it a broken op 1 hit weapon, or a gimmick that no one uses. What do you guys think?
deadeye works without trickery just fine. What gets me killed is that I have to get out of kneel by pressing the skill 5. I Naturally want to move out of harms way, but end up forgetting that I have to press 5 then I can move. If I could just kneel and break kneel with normal movement that would be great. If the breaking kneel with skill 5 could do something like return some initiative and break kneel or something I would be down with that.
I thought it was just me. I hope they fix this soon.
Can we please have our stealth attacks back. I used backstab a lot when running d/d power back in season 1 when thieves were in a bad place with warrior and still managed to succeed with it, but after the 1s cd nerf I just can’t play it. I don’t mind if its damage is reduced a bit, but I need to be able to land the skill to justify the initiative, positioning, and utility used just to have access to the skill. This also makes s/d a lot weaker since tactical strike gave the weapon set a moment to breath and execute the auto attack dealing a good amount of damage. I don’t think reducing the initiative of CnD is necessary, but having it down to 5 initiative would definitely be appreciated with all the blocks, evades, blinds, and invulns in the game.
I use duel mace/ Hammer in pve. Its a cc heavy set that applies lots of vulnerability and weakness to foes. your cc applies bleeding and weakness with body blow and you get 5% damage from both Bloodlust and cull the weak while increasing your critical hit chance by 50% with unsuspecting foe. You also get 10% damage from from stick and move and 10~20% from burst skills with berserk’s power. Your burst skills also restore endurance, clear conditions, and heal you when they hit. Critical hits apply vulnerability and bleed as well. Your mace attacks are 15% faster with fast hands and you apply lots of vulnerability with mace when striking foes that are CCed. You get mobility from traveler runes, signet of rage swiftness, balanced stance swiftness, signet of fury → earthshaker from hammer, and bulls charge. Your signets also give you bonus crit chance and you can break through blocks with passive proc of signet of might from signet mastery trait. last thing is mending and I just use it for the quick heal and condi cleanse. The only compromise to this build is the weapon swap cool down and range, but that honestly doesn’t bother me at all.
Bring 5 man q back. This game feels dead. I miss going in solo q and coming out 4-5 man because I found people that I can work well with in a team. Now I see 3 guys that I would like to team up with and can’t. They made a system specifically to make creating parties easier at the end of a game and now it’s not being used. Reduce the loses when faced against a pre-made and increase rewards when beating them. Bring back the rewards that made pve players come in, but change the way that pips work so that people don’t just give up and get rewards. If you lose a game past a certain margin then you lose pips. If you lose a game within a certain margin then you gain pips, but not as much as if you would have won the game. Balance the game by reducing defenses across all classes, balance core vs elite specs, reduce spam.
Bring 5 man q back. This game feels dead. I miss going in solo q and coming out 4-5 man because I found people that I can work well with in a team. Now I see 3 guys that I would like to team up with and can’t. They made a system specifically to make creating parties easier at the end of a game and now it’s not being used. Reduce the loses when faced against a pre-made and increase rewards when beating them. Bring back the rewards that made pve players come in, but change the way that pips work so that people don’t just give up and get rewards. If you lose a game past a certain margin then you lose pips. If you lose a game within a certain margin then you gain pips, but not as much as if you would have won the game. Balance the game by reducing defenses across all classes, balance core vs elite specs, reduce spam. That’s all I’m asking for.
Its not a thing because
a) its OP
b) the community asked not to have it since its close to dire stats.
c) its OP
d) Mercenary amulet had similar stats but again was op so got removed
e) its OPOh no it’s not! Alot of people I’ve seen want to ride on the train as profession/Spec is a design problem, stat amulet access don’t make things OP! /s
This right here. Tank amulets aren’t op, but after HoT cam, providing too many passive defenses for everyone and conditions not being fixed, they removed these amulets instead of actually balancing their game.
Sadly, the likely end result is fixed builds.
lol. You know how people have been asking for saved builds to switch on the fly? I can see them making some fixed builds and passing it off as something that we requested.
The community voted for class stacking by default in my opinion.
Locked professions would have allowed ANET to use separate MMR for each class. It would also have allowed the matchmaker to choose the class mix for matches. Then people would need to play something other than the flavor-of-the-month class in order to get matches.
I voted to allow class stacking so that people can see what class is broken and so that they can fix it and not just hide the issues. I also would like tanky amulets to come back and for them to fix the classes and not be lazy about it. Short term loss, long term gain, assuming people get sick and tired of their balance practices and the op HoT specs.
Maybe increase the initiative cost a little bit, right now it feels very spammable
I agree with this statement!
Wahoo! Bye frands!
This hurts core thief which is already in a bad place. What you want to do is nerf elite specs without hurting core classes.
I’m a mesmer main and I’ve seen this type of thread many times before. So I will post what I’ve always posted in these threads.
You have to look at the grand scheme of things in terms of PI. In those terms nothing about the Thief is OP. The only class that actually has a,decent gripe is necro, but if you should never be left to 1v1 a thief anyways. If you find you are in one vs a thief and die….that is a l2p issue on you and your team. Same with rev.
Now on each of those classes while you are countered you can survive a 1v1 long enough for a +1.
Now the other 6 classes pretty much hard or soft counter thief. This is with the OP PI trait too. So if you are dying 1v1 to a thief on one of these other classes then PI is not the problem. You are. Also if you are unable to hold out in a 1v1 with a thief long enough for a rotation to help you while on a necro or rev, PI is not the problem…you are.
No changes at this time are warranted to PI based on the current state of the entire game.
Thank you and /thread
This has not been refuted and pretty much shut the door on ANY argument for the nerfing of thief.
Until one you can prove this wrong this thread is over and the mods should lock it for spam/trolling/etc.
Thank you and /thread
You are not helping with the general health of the game when you do this and try to end discussions. As it stands, you are correct to say that it is not warranted to nerf impact disruption, but it doesn’t change the fact that ID is a broken trait. What you should be doing instead is ask for something in return or better yet a nerf to the other classes to warrant the nerf. I don’t know about you, but if the other classes didn’t have so many defenses that allow dps builds to run around care free like tanks (which is what pushed everyone to the bunker meta, which then led to the removal of tank amulets to hide the problem) than I would be just fine with ID getting an ICD. And don’t say I’m derailing the conversation, I’m trying to move it to a more productive one where we can talk about compromise instead of shouting yes or no. What would you want in return if we were to place an ICD on ID? It doesn’t have to be a whole list of buffs and nerfs just a general change like a decrease in elite specs damage, or defenses, or abundance of utility or boon spam.
Weakness is too powerful of an effect to apply as an AoE and be re-applied so quickly. AoE reveal is also completely excessive; stealth stacking for all professions – scrapper, mesmer, ranger, and including thief, need nerfs, not more forced reveals.
Just a wild thought, but I would like to see more more utility on under used skills and weapons to see some more verity in pvp.
Most people on the forums say they are ok with nerfs to their class if the other classes get tone down as well, so why not start that discussion and try to figure something out that works to better balance all classes in a way that we can all agree? I’m trying to change the conversation to a more productive one. All you have to do is see Cynz reaction to these nerf suggestions. I promise that if you included toning down all the other classes while asking for a nerf to thief Cynz and others would be more willing to compromise.
Editted it down to the part that’s relevant not because of any underhandedness.
The thing is I’ve seen a lot of nerf mesmer threads as well, it’s not until you explain that a mesmers shield is the highest cool down block for duration in the entire game that people start to realise maybe it’s not actually imbalanced.
Anyway as I’ve said many times as well a lot of HoT things need toning down, I posted in the mesmer section a long time ago how I would reduce the class to how I thought the elite spec should be.
I can’t find it but I’ll give you the gist of it, no continuum split, alacrity mesmer only mechanic, less quickness and even then chrono would be a trait line that would be a good option in many cases. However it would be utterly attrocious if every other class was left the same way and I would expect some seriously deep nerfs to others as well.
The point is moot though as ANet clearly showed with the first 2 balance patches that they would rather change core aspects than nerf the power creeped HoT specs and the clear imbalances within them.
I agree with this 100%, and yes I feel that if the community had these discussions we would be able to come to an agreement across all classes and player base, but anet keeps going at it the wrong way. I’m hoping that if we have more discussions like this where the community can agree on nerfs and buffs than anet might eventually see what we are really asking for which is a balanced game that is fun.
The thing is mesmer wouldn’t be in a great place with the above suggestion (though it would bring the elite spec in line) as they still have pathetic sustained damage due to balancing around clones and phantasms. It might also delete them from PvE and WvW roaming would be back to core mesmer most likely because stealth is so OP there.
Even nerfs on this level to other classes doesn’t really help as there are deep seated issues within the classes. HoT pets for ranger are way too tanky in 1v1s but die super easy in team fights, ele does not have anything but support builds as they don’t have the tools to be a roamer or a bruiser anymore, thief having bouncing off the walls crazy mobility but no ability to be a team fighter. That’s just to name a few.
Thing is, this was to be expected as soon as we saw a PvE-oriented design focus.
I’d really like to just see a big step away from the trend they’ve followed and make the nature of the game much simpler; to deal damage, you need to attack and make yourself vulnerable on some level; to negate damage, you need to stop attacking and defend. Aside from a very select few weapon skills like Pistol Whip, Blurred Frenzy, and the occasional major cooldown like Endure Pain or well-timed Virtue of Courage every 30+ seconds. Nothing or very little should be able to do both at the same time without some very serious investment/pre-cast animations.
Ok so I want to see nerfs across all elite specs in one way or another as they are all a bit over the top, but things like focus on mez I would like to see buffed. I would say something like every time the phantasmal warden attacked is would apply weakness to foes aoe 240 or something and and into the void would do something extra like strip 1 boon from nearby foes and apply reveal aoe. Same thing for things like warrior offhand axe should destroy incoming projectiles (not reflect). Those are things I would like to see, but there are bigger issues hindering people from enjoying the game.
As for the big step in making the game simpler like you said I agree. I would say that things like Shield of Courage are the problem in this case. I think that that skill shouldn’t allow the guardian to attack without dropping it first as it is an aoe block that can be used for your allies. Warrior Endure pain would be fine if they reduce how long it lasted from 4s to 3s and reduce the cooldown to 50s since they updated the trait Defy pain making power builds just sit there watching them heal and go ham.
Problem 1: CD needs to go, this change was uncalled for on first place.
Problem 2: either massive AoE spam needs to go from all classes or thief needs ways to deal with it. Changing all classes like this would require a lot of work, take also pve into account – it won’t happen. Only way would be giving thief some kind of buff while in stealth to deal with AoE, e.g. reduce damage taken from all sources (ik there is SA trait, but SA itself is laughable compared to DD atm so nobody will take it) – but then everyone would cry that they can’t kill thief and stealth camping would be even more prevalent.
Problem 3: as with problem 2, it would require quite few nerfs to survival of other classes. Let’s assume Anet does implement it. It would once again heavily affect raids, wvw and interaction between those classes. Anet could also give thieves better way to land backstab (e.g. make it unblockable/ignoring protection if landed from behind on X CD) but then people relying on all their passives will cry rivers that they are dying to backstab.
Bottom line: thief is a glassy damage dealer that gave up everything but mobility and stealth for damage. They are meant to do damage. Regardless in what way they are dealing damage, players will be never satisfied and will complain about the class. The joke is, thief damage is still 99% single target, unlike traps and co.
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Ok thanks for the reply and I would like to now talk about some of the points you mentioned above.
1. You mentioned that the CD on backstab needs to go and yes I 100% agree that it needs to go so we’re on the same page there.
2. The aoe is annoying but it actually balances out thieves mobility. Thief was designed as a hit and run type of class, while others like guardians are meant to hold a point. The Issue here is that HoT gave other classes that were meant to be point holders more mobility, making it more difficult for thief to do its job, and gave everyone more defenses so thieves can’t +1 as effectively.
3. If you look at metabattle and look at the builds for raids and fractals you’ll see that they mainly focus on dps. Reducing their Defenses wouldn’t actually cause them too many problems. If you remove their dps then they will cry. Look at pve scrappers as an example, they cry about having low dps after the damage nerf and would have preferred to lose things like their reflects and blocks from the hammer since raids and fractals are all about how fast you can kill things. Don’t forget that in wvw things like midline support tempest would still be a thing if you reduced their ability to tank (tempest not eles since HoT is the problem.), because they have tank gear like nomads.
In general, just try to remember that thieves were not seen as op back when they changed the trait system and updated condition damage. If HoT and all its over the top defenses didn’t come in the game and thieves got their auto attack boost and their stealth attacks didn’t have the 1s CD, we would be in a much better place today. The only exception would have been condition builds since they were never addressed since HoT made a huge mess covering them up. The first goal that I would like to achieve is reducing all these over the top defenses to the point where we can bring tank amulets back in pvp. Honestly the best rout for this to go is to strip those defenses first and not touch damage (that would mean leaving PI alone for now). After these changes what would most likely happen is people would then cry about PI more, then it would justified to place an ICD to the trait ID and taking a look at other over the top traits and skills on thief.
Have you read the thread? People ask for headshot, shadowshot and AA nerfs…. yes it is nerf to core, huge one at it.
Sure, other things need to be nerfed as well BUT where are those suggestions? All i see is nerf thief plxtnksbye.
You know why all stealth attacks were (unreasonably) nerfed? Because before that there was massive QQ thread from DH (yes, DHs, not from necro, not from ele, FROM A DH that has no issues dealing with thief on first place) complaining that thief can recast backstab after breaking aegis. What did Anet do? Nerfed all thief weapon sets across the board. Did they nerf DHs to help thieves? NO. This is why this thread not going to do anything but ruin the class.
You actually make a really good point here. If thief or Daredevil is going to receive a nerf, than all other classes would need at least 1 nerf to keep things fair. If you could nerf 1 thing per class what would it be? I think that would be a more helpful conversation to have than just nerf x class plxtnksbye like this one because it would take into consideration the dynamic between all the classes.
Not really. Elite specs need far more than 1 nerf each, and some classes need complete redesigns instead of just outright nerfs.
The 1 nerf thing is just to move the conversation from nerf x class in a vacuum to a conversation that looks at the bigger picture and issues between all classes in order to avoid this flavor of the month effect we have going on and bringing real balance in the game not this rock, paper, scissors balance we have right now. We know that all classes need a nerf after HoT so asking for 1 on each class is a good way to start this conversation. Also, a redesign can be a nerf. An example of a slight redesign would be to not allow dragonhunter’s to attack while their shield of courage is up without dropping it first. This on its own would sound like a bad idea unless all other classes got something brokenly op of theirs tone down at the same time. Most people on the forums say they are ok with nerfs to their class if the other classes get tone down as well, so why not start that discussion and try to figure something out that works to better balance all classes in a way that we can all agree? I’m trying to change the conversation to a more productive one. All you have to do is see Cynz reaction to these nerf suggestions. I promise that if you included toning down all the other classes while asking for a nerf to thief Cynz and others would be more willing to compromise.
Fair enough. We have different ideas about how to approach class balance going forward from here. While I agree that a very good way to go about balancing is to look at all classes in the same picture instead of one at a time, I do think that at this point the first priority for ANet should be consistency and just fixing mechanics and design decisions that are just either broken or OP by design. This includes stuff like the discussion at hand (no ICD on a highly damaging trait that procs on interrupts, of which a thief can spam and is almost guaranteed to land), and I think that fixing such bad designs is best done in a vacuum. Then, classes should indeed be balanced against one another.
Specifically for the redesign though, when I used it I meant a redesign of either the class mechanic or the entire class, not just a single skill being redesigned. Stuff like moving damage off of mesmer phantasms and giving it back to the mesmer itself, in turn making all phantasms utility summons like iAvenger/Disenchanter/Defender.
Sadly the redesign that you are talking about would require a lot of work to do as it is a fundamental problem, and people want to have fun now not later, meaning that anet would have it low in its priority list. What I think they should do is lower the defensive abilities of other classes (elite specs mainly or core changes that were made after HoT dropped like adrenal health on war to cover the fact that is was one of the more balanced class in season 1). The goal that we should be aiming for first is the ability to bring back tank amulets. Having those come back in the game would mean that heavy hitters like Dragonhunter’s are no longer running around doing thief like damage and tanking, allowing people to move away from the bunker meta that was present in season 1 opening up build diversity and interactive counter play. I don’t like the idea of reducing damage as that just drags out fights making tanky builds over perform and kittening off all the pve players as all they care about is dps for the most part. I do agree that Impact Disruption needs an ICD especially if other classes are going to lose their defenses.
Most people on the forums say they are ok with nerfs to their class if the other classes get tone down as well, so why not start that discussion and try to figure something out that works to better balance all classes in a way that we can all agree? I’m trying to change the conversation to a more productive one. All you have to do is see Cynz reaction to these nerf suggestions. I promise that if you included toning down all the other classes while asking for a nerf to thief Cynz and others would be more willing to compromise.
Editted it down to the part that’s relevant not because of any underhandedness.
The thing is I’ve seen a lot of nerf mesmer threads as well, it’s not until you explain that a mesmers shield is the highest cool down block for duration in the entire game that people start to realise maybe it’s not actually imbalanced.
Anyway as I’ve said many times as well a lot of HoT things need toning down, I posted in the mesmer section a long time ago how I would reduce the class to how I thought the elite spec should be.
I can’t find it but I’ll give you the gist of it, no continuum split, alacrity mesmer only mechanic, less quickness and even then chrono would be a trait line that would be a good option in many cases. However it would be utterly attrocious if every other class was left the same way and I would expect some seriously deep nerfs to others as well.
The point is moot though as ANet clearly showed with the first 2 balance patches that they would rather change core aspects than nerf the power creeped HoT specs and the clear imbalances within them.
I agree with this 100%, and yes I feel that if the community had these discussions we would be able to come to an agreement across all classes and player base, but anet keeps going at it the wrong way. I’m hoping that if we have more discussions like this where the community can agree on nerfs and buffs than anet might eventually see what we are really asking for which is a balanced game that is fun.
The thing is mesmer wouldn’t be in a great place with the above suggestion (though it would bring the elite spec in line) as they still have pathetic sustained damage due to balancing around clones and phantasms. It might also delete them from PvE and WvW roaming would be back to core mesmer most likely because stealth is so OP there.
Even nerfs on this level to other classes doesn’t really help as there are deep seated issues within the classes. HoT pets for ranger are way too tanky in 1v1s but die super easy in team fights, ele does not have anything but support builds as they don’t have the tools to be a roamer or a bruiser anymore, thief having bouncing off the walls crazy mobility but no ability to be a team fighter. That’s just to name a few.
Yes, there are a lot of deep seated issues within every class, and most people have actually forgotten about those issues since HoT made all those things seem small in scope. Elite specs need to be toned down to core spec level. The elite specs right now are actually balanced against each other right now, all we need to do is slowly drop all of them to core level without over nerfing any of the classes. Once we get to that pre HoT point we can look at old deep issues with classes, and things like adjusting condition damage which was a complaint before HoT dropped since the condi change was fairly new at the time .
Most people on the forums say they are ok with nerfs to their class if the other classes get tone down as well, so why not start that discussion and try to figure something out that works to better balance all classes in a way that we can all agree? I’m trying to change the conversation to a more productive one. All you have to do is see Cynz reaction to these nerf suggestions. I promise that if you included toning down all the other classes while asking for a nerf to thief Cynz and others would be more willing to compromise.
Editted it down to the part that’s relevant not because of any underhandedness.
The thing is I’ve seen a lot of nerf mesmer threads as well, it’s not until you explain that a mesmers shield is the highest cool down block for duration in the entire game that people start to realise maybe it’s not actually imbalanced.
Anyway as I’ve said many times as well a lot of HoT things need toning down, I posted in the mesmer section a long time ago how I would reduce the class to how I thought the elite spec should be.
I can’t find it but I’ll give you the gist of it, no continuum split, alacrity mesmer only mechanic, less quickness and even then chrono would be a trait line that would be a good option in many cases. However it would be utterly attrocious if every other class was left the same way and I would expect some seriously deep nerfs to others as well.
The point is moot though as ANet clearly showed with the first 2 balance patches that they would rather change core aspects than nerf the power creeped HoT specs and the clear imbalances within them.
I agree with this 100%, and yes I feel that if the community had these discussions we would be able to come to an agreement across all classes and player base, but anet keeps going at it the wrong way. I’m hoping that if we have more discussions like this where the community can agree on nerfs and buffs than anet might eventually see what we are really asking for which is a balanced game that is fun.
If they want to fix thieves they need to start pumping out small changes every week or so. If they don’t it will take Years for them to achieve the reward vs risk they had pre hot. without that thieves will never be balanced.
Eventally they will hit a point, where we no longer have to rely on low risk abilities, and then they can remove them completly. if they nerf them now thieves would be in a horrible spot. (worst then s1), while we hate things like PI, evade on vault ect we need them sadly.
This is so true.
Honestly, before I read this thread, I wasn’t aware how big a problem this was. But when every defender is suggesting spamming things like stab and blocks, which the thief can then just not IP, it’s become obvious there is zero sensible counterplay to headshot spam, which is not a good thing to exist in an engaging and interesting pvp environment, which should be the end goal of balance.
or… you can just stow weapon, which is free….
as someone mentioned above, how it is any different to confusion?
Cynz, if IP was nerfed what would the other classes have to give up to justify it in your opinion? give an example plz if you can.
Honestly, before I read this thread, I wasn’t aware how big a problem this was. But when every defender is suggesting spamming things like stab and blocks, which the thief can then just not IP, it’s become obvious there is zero sensible counterplay to headshot spam, which is not a good thing to exist in an engaging and interesting pvp environment, which should be the end goal of balance.
The balance to head shot spam was that it did no damage. Now that it does damage it’s broken. HoT broke the balance of this game by removing counterplay with their overloaded defenses and adding damage to skills that should only be used as utility.
Have you read the thread? People ask for headshot, shadowshot and AA nerfs…. yes it is nerf to core, huge one at it.
Sure, other things need to be nerfed as well BUT where are those suggestions? All i see is nerf thief plxtnksbye.
You know why all stealth attacks were (unreasonably) nerfed? Because before that there was massive QQ thread from DH (yes, DHs, not from necro, not from ele, FROM A DH that has no issues dealing with thief on first place) complaining that thief can recast backstab after breaking aegis. What did Anet do? Nerfed all thief weapon sets across the board. Did they nerf DHs to help thieves? NO. This is why this thread not going to do anything but ruin the class.
You actually make a really good point here. If thief or Daredevil is going to receive a nerf, than all other classes would need at least 1 nerf to keep things fair. If you could nerf 1 thing per class what would it be? I think that would be a more helpful conversation to have than just nerf x class plxtnksbye like this one because it would take into consideration the dynamic between all the classes.
Not really. Elite specs need far more than 1 nerf each, and some classes need complete redesigns instead of just outright nerfs.
The 1 nerf thing is just to move the conversation from nerf x class in a vacuum to a conversation that looks at the bigger picture and issues between all classes in order to avoid this flavor of the month effect we have going on and bringing real balance in the game not this rock, paper, scissors balance we have right now. We know that all classes need a nerf after HoT so asking for 1 on each class is a good way to start this conversation. Also, a redesign can be a nerf. An example of a slight redesign would be to not allow dragonhunter’s to attack while their shield of courage is up without dropping it first. This on its own would sound like a bad idea unless all other classes got something brokenly op of theirs tone down at the same time. Most people on the forums say they are ok with nerfs to their class if the other classes get tone down as well, so why not start that discussion and try to figure something out that works to better balance all classes in a way that we can all agree? I’m trying to change the conversation to a more productive one. All you have to do is see Cynz reaction to these nerf suggestions. I promise that if you included toning down all the other classes while asking for a nerf to thief Cynz and others would be more willing to compromise.
It definitely should be nerfed, but let’s not mess up a core weapon set if the problem comes from the elite spec. If PI is OP then nerf PI, not headsot. Maybe give the effect a 5-7s cd? Or -50% damage, rev staff style – CC shouldn’t be the primary source of damage for anything.
Best thing for this trait is a cd since it doesn’t crit. I still think shadow shot should lose the blind and d/p should rely on backstab (remove the 1s cd) for its damage. This would be a change to the core weapon, but it’s not an elite spec issue for me and just a fix on something that should have been done way before HoT even released.
So core build should be nerfed because of your personal preferences? What an amazing argument. My personal preference is that revs get deleted from the game because i said so – sounds ridiculous, doesn’kitten
I still see not a single good argument WHY thief should be nerfed given current state of classes. Other classes are so stupidly overtuned (at least elite specs) and you demand that core build and DD gets nerfed massively because it prevents you from mindless spam that plagued game since HoT launch?
Impacting Disruption is a DD trait, and it needs an ICD. So no, this would not be a nerf to core thief. Shadowshot is a different issue, but don’t let someone else derail this thread, since it’s about pulmonary impact and ID mainly.
And you want an argument as to why thief should be nerfed? Because every class needs some nerfs atm. Every single one has stuff that should be toned down.
Have you read the thread? People ask for headshot, shadowshot and AA nerfs…. yes it is nerf to core, huge one at it.
Sure, other things need to be nerfed as well BUT where are those suggestions? All i see is nerf thief plxtnksbye.
You know why all stealth attacks were (unreasonably) nerfed? Because before that there was massive QQ thread from DH (yes, DHs, not from necro, not from ele, FROM A DH that has no issues dealing with thief on first place) complaining that thief can recast backstab after breaking aegis. What did Anet do? Nerfed all thief weapon sets across the board. Did they nerf DHs to help thieves? NO. This is why this thread not going to do anything but ruin the class.
You actually make a really good point here. If thief or Daredevil is going to receive a nerf, than all other classes would need at least 1 nerf to keep things fair. If you could nerf 1 thing per class what would it be? I think that would be a more helpful conversation to have than just nerf x class plxtnksbye like this one because it would take into consideration the dynamic between all the classes.
Blocks = necro has none
Instant cast skills = necro has none
Stability = basically none
Blinds = will never land it on a thief
Invulns = none
Projectile hate = 1 utility which is bad
Stow weapon = If I do this I will just die to 1 spam anywaySo what does a necro do vs PI? Thief and mesmer have always killed necros. But it is particularly bad currently.
- necro with blocks would be insane
- no instants? how about we don’t lie here (ds, procs and co. don’t exist eh?)
- you get stab in DS, that is still by far more than thief himself has lol
- actually you have multiple ways to land blind, if i can do it on my necro then anyone can
- necros with invuls would be nightmare, you have high HP pool, DS and perma weakness to mitigate the damage
- it is still an utility, it is your choice not to take
- thief, unlike other classes can either cast interrupt (beside steal) or use AA, not both at the same time…. count interrupts, if they spam it, they will be out of ini and you can murder them; if they don’t spam it you wouldn’t be taking much dmg from IP on first place….So what does necro do vs thieves? Load them with condis and pray that your fellow ele heals you, just like vs any class really. I can also ask you question: what does scrapper do vs necro in current state? It is so stupidly one sided it is not even funny, i don’t see you asking for necro nerfs though… where are they, Henry?
Please nerf paper, scissors are ok. With love, rock!
Ok so it’s not so much about the personal play style that I want but the fact that shadow shot does 3 things. It deals good damage, blinds (defend), and close the gap. This skill simply does too much. The thing with PI is that it makes head shot do too much and it can me spammed. Interrupts are flexible and can be used to defend yourself or to apply pressure to the enemy and PI now adds damage to it. Fight a Daredevil with your core thief and you’ll see the issue (unless your spamming shadow shot yourself or spamming d/d 3 condi). And yes, all other classes need huge nerfs too, primarily with their defensive abilities which is what led to the removal of tank amulets. Also, that 1s stealth attack nerf was completely uncalled for and I agree with you there. I understand the frustration with seeing people post nerfs on thief when it can barely 1v1 even though the description of the class says “They’re deadly in one-on-one combat using their agility, acrobatic fighting style, and the ability to steal to overcome their enemies.” ,but you have to understand that just because all the other classes are broken, it doesn’t mean we should ignore this class’ problems. There needs to be a huge nerf starting with elite specs and then fixing core issues that were forgotten about.
There are a lot of spells that do multiple things, e.g. BF from mes, necro wells (e.g. wells on my build corrupt condis, do damage and give me protection) etc. Should we gut them all?
I actually play core on my alt account because it has no HoT (it is also in plat, as my main), i have no issue fighting DD thieves ironically. I actually have more issue fighting other elite specs because core doesn’t have IP and has to rely on overnerfed backstab which doesn’t work so well on passive overloaded crap introduced with HoT (e.g. all hammer skills on scrapp hammer). Because i play core, i don’t see why weaponset itself should be nerfed. It already struggles as it is.
I agree that DD needs nerfing but only if other elite specs see meaningful nerfs. As it is right now, people just ask for plain DD nerfs – that is all. I don’t agree with it, i still have flashbacks from s1 when i got constantly reported and griefed for simply playing the class before the match even started because thief was in such sad state – i don’t want the same history repeat again.
Just to not get side tracked with minor details, we can all agree that elite specs across the board need to be nerfed right? I’m just curious to see as to how we should go about it. I think their defensive abilities are the main issue. Its allowing people that deal zerker damage play care free like some tank and forcing classes to move to a more defensive and cheesy spec. An example would be season 1 warrior, they dealt the same amount of damage but they didn’t have the survivability that they do today. They were treated the same as thieves. After they got their defenses buffed, now we see complaints on how op they are. Thoughts?
(edited by Moises.2196)
It definitely should be nerfed, but let’s not mess up a core weapon set if the problem comes from the elite spec. If PI is OP then nerf PI, not headsot. Maybe give the effect a 5-7s cd? Or -50% damage, rev staff style – CC shouldn’t be the primary source of damage for anything.
Best thing for this trait is a cd since it doesn’t crit. I still think shadow shot should lose the blind and d/p should rely on backstab (remove the 1s cd) for its damage. This would be a change to the core weapon, but it’s not an elite spec issue for me and just a fix on something that should have been done way before HoT even released.
So core build should be nerfed because of your personal preferences? What an amazing argument. My personal preference is that revs get deleted from the game because i said so – sounds ridiculous, doesn’kitten
If you want damage nerf for thieves, sure, BUT only for elite spec, revert of all backstab nerfs and only if other classes get heavily nerfed as well (a lot would need to change) which will not happen given how Anet balanced things in the past.
Ok so it’s not so much about the personal play style that I want but the fact that shadow shot does 3 things. It deals good damage, blinds (defend), and close the gap. This skill simply does too much. The thing with PI is that it makes head shot do too much and it can me spammed. Interrupts are flexible and can be used to defend yourself or to apply pressure to the enemy and PI now adds damage to it. Fight a Daredevil with your core thief and you’ll see the issue (unless your spamming shadow shot yourself or spamming d/d 3 condi). And yes, all other classes need huge nerfs too, primarily with their defensive abilities which is what led to the removal of tank amulets. Also, that 1s stealth attack nerf was completely uncalled for and I agree with you there. I understand the frustration with seeing people post nerfs on thief when it can barely 1v1 even though the description of the class says “They’re deadly in one-on-one combat using their agility, acrobatic fighting style, and the ability to steal to overcome their enemies.” ,but you have to understand that just because all the other classes are broken, it doesn’t mean we should ignore this class’ problems. There needs to be a huge nerf starting with elite specs and then fixing core issues that were forgotten about.
Dragon hunter f1 should simply have a cast time 3/4 s so that people can dodge it.
Test of faith needs a cast time on it like the other traps.
I agree with the heal on f2 and would also add that shield of courage f3 should be instant cast but should not allow the guardian to attack without dropping the shield.
The evade frame on vault needs to go not the damage. (removing damage in the game for the most part just leads to long fights and makes bunkers way to strong. That’s why we don’t have tank amulets anymore.)
The evade on deathblossom needs to stay for d/d power build and should instead remove the bleeding from the skill and be moved to backstab (remove the 1s CD from stealth attacks). I would also say that they should remove the blind from shadow shot and removed the cd on stealth attacks to make the d/p set rely on backstab for damage, stealth for defense, and shadow shot for a gap closer.
Mesmer can easily be fixed by changing confusion to not deal damage/sec. This will allow people to have some counter play against condi mesmer.
Scrapper needs the stability from final salvo to go and swap places with rapid regeneration. They have too much in one build. This would also give downed players a chance against that gyro stomping them.
Tempest needs the auras from shout to go accept for the elite and flash freeze should daze foes for 1s to compensate for the lost aura. Elemental bastion should also no longer grant a frost aura. The scarcity of auras would balance out the healing. I would also change water overload to not cleanse conditions per pulse. I would also make invigorating torrents not apply regeneration and simply cleanse a condition instead so that it doesn’t rely on water for condi clears. Diamond skin should also be changed so that it no longer has a threshold and simply remove 1 condition every 3s. These suggestions are made to make the ele less tanky, become more independent of the water trait line, and allow for tanky amulets to return to the game so that eles can still be tank healbots, but not be completely broken like before.
It definitely should be nerfed, but let’s not mess up a core weapon set if the problem comes from the elite spec. If PI is OP then nerf PI, not headsot. Maybe give the effect a 5-7s cd? Or -50% damage, rev staff style – CC shouldn’t be the primary source of damage for anything.
Best thing for this trait is a cd since it doesn’t crit. I still think shadow shot should lose the blind and d/p should rely on backstab (remove the 1s cd) for its damage. This would be a change to the core weapon, but it’s not an elite spec issue for me and just a fix on something that should have been done way before HoT even released.
I think anything over an icd of 1-3 seconds on pulmonary impact would be overkill. I do agree on dropping the evade frames from vault. Maybe add a block on staff 2 or something. Thf also needs more methods to root enemies to set up vault though aside from panic trait and the dagger utility, and basi venom.
I would like the see the 10s first and if it’s overkill then drop it down. For the root thing I would also like to see how people adapt to the change first, and then maybe discuss adding a smoke field to dust trike (the smoke field would not pulse blind and only be used for combo finishers. It would also mean that the skill would remain at 4 initiative) allowing the thief to use vault or bound to gain stealth and use hook strike to set up a vault or 2. This is assuming they revert the 1s CD on stealth attacks.
I think they just need a 10s ICD on Impact disruption and not touch headshot, remove the blind from shadow shot (damage and the unblockable teleport stay the same), and remove the 1s CD on stealth attacks. d/p should get its damage from backstab and its defense from stealth while shadow shot works as a gap closer. Obviously a lot of things across other professions should be tone down at the same time that these changes would be implemented to not leave the thief completely useless against all the other op classes. The biggest issue that I see is that everyone is cheesing things by spamming skills that provide both defense and offense. The real solution in my opinion is to strip the ability to deal lots of damage while defending oneself. An example of this would be to remove the evade frame from vault completely, and reduce the initiative of dust strike to 3 to balance the weapon out. Another example would be to change dragonhunter’s shield of courage to be an instant cast, but not allow him/her attack without dropping the shield first. Traits can be fixed by placing ICD and other restrictions on them, but I don’t like the Idea of lowering damage on skills as that just makes fights last way too long, especially if they are bunkers.
First thing they should do is change confusion to not deal damage/sec in pvp.
The Winged foot is the symbol of the Greek God Hermes. Hermes is considered the God of thieves. one of his characteristics was great speed.
The planet mercury and the Roman God Mercury is just a renaming of Hermes and the naming of Mercury the planet was based on its speed in orbit . The Element mercury was also called “quicksilver” due to its fluid nature and how it flowed again referencing Hermes.
don’t be a buzzkill this is a complaining thread
babazhook.6805 is right tho. Remember the explanation they had for Dragonhunter’s name? Same situation. This does fit nicely with the idea of progression and that the thief is reaching the next level. Only problem now is how terrible of a condition the thief is in. If the thief was in a better place we would be admiring the symbol chosen for the DD.
We know that you gutted acrobatics to make way for your idea for our elite spec and it’s not a good feeling.
power of inertia -> evasive empowerment ( gutted and nerfed for specialization)
feline grace -> extra dodge bar (nerfed for specialization)
fleet of foot -> unhindered combatant (replaced weakness with chilled and removed the icd. gutted for specialization)
assassin’s retreat ( great trait for pve) -> unhindered combatant (gutted for specialization)
unhindered combatant = combination of improved traits assassin’s retreat and fleet of foot
Fluid strikes -> staff master (gutted for specialization)
Two traits that I want to see return, Hidden Assassin and Power of Inertia. Just having these two traits opens up so much for thieves. if you trait for Shadow Arts or Acrobatics you lose dps, but these two could be a game changer. This is probably why we feel so weak.
(edited by Moises.2196)
Pets
Would like to have an option to stow my pet and have a little more control over it.
When stowed grant +250 attribute points or 20% increase in duration:
Canine- Power
Birds- Precision
Feline- Ferocity
Ursine- Toughness
Drake- Vitality
Devourer- Condition damage
Spider- Condition Duration
Moa- Healing
Pig- boon duration
Pet UI:
F1- Activate pet and attack
F2- Activate pet and use pet skill
F3- Call your pet to return from afar and stow your pet when near by
F4- Pet swap
(Pet health bar always visible with F1-F4 above it)
Healing skills heal pet’s health even when stowed.
Utilities
All shouts (except for healing shout) activate your pet first and then your skill immediately
Change signet of stone passive to grant protection for 2s (10s Intervals) for you and your pet
Spirits can move baseline
Weapons
Great sword: Power stab evade should be reduced to 1/2s.
Sword: Change animation of auto attack to not chase so that people have more control of it. Keep range at 130 for auto attack.
Slash- no change
Kick- change name and make it a downward stab to look like it’s going for someone’s leg, no leap
Pounce- jumping spin animation like the great sword power stab, no leap
Traits
Swap protective ward for Empathetic Bond. Nature magic needs more condi cleanse.
Nature’s vengeance: Change this trait so that spirit’s health increases 100%, radius increases 50%, activate effect when killed, and grant boon after killed.
Boons when killed 360 radius:
Water Spirit- Grants regen for 12s
Sun Spirit- Grants vigor for 6s
Storm Spirit- Grants swiftness for 12s
Frost Spirit- Grants 2 stacks of might for 10s
Stone Spirit- Grants protection for 6s
Spirit of Nature- Grants 2 stacks of stability for 10s
Fix Beastly warden so that it isn’t broken.
(edited by Moises.2196)