Guild Wars 2

One or the other. It is very overpowered.

So either headshot should have a cast time (maybe 0.75 seconds to add counter play) or PI should just do about 25-50% less damage.

Things are really not fun.

Time to act.

You could also take a leaf out of revs books and make headshot a longer daze but with kitten CD….

Either way this thread will be a salt mine, let me grab my popcorn.

apharma.3741:

You could also take a leaf out of revs books and make headshot a longer daze but with kitten CD….

Either way this thread will be a salt mine, let me grab my popcorn.

I think a cast time on headshot of 0.75s to add counter play would be a good idea.

Rickster.8752:

apharma.3741:

You could also take a leaf out of revs books and make headshot a longer daze but with kitten CD….

Either way this thread will be a salt mine, let me grab my popcorn.

I think a cast time on headshot of 0.75s to add counter play would be a good idea.

Increasing cast time reduces its viability as an interrupt though. The cooldown suggestion would be nice, but goes against the thief’s mechanics. Only revenant is allowed to be treated that way for whatever reason.

Maybe increase the initiative cost a little bit, right now it feels very spammable

Or just dodge it, block it, reflect it, destroy it, apply Stability, use an Invuln. And so on there’s counter play to it just saying.

Let the salt flow!!!

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Or just dodge it, block it, reflect it, destroy it, apply Stability, use an Invuln. And so on there’s counter play to it just saying.

Let the salt flow!!!

intresting how you didnt say projectile hate/LoS at #1 place

EDIT: impact is stupid tho by design…

While i do not own Heart of Thorns™ yet and for all we know that Elites are tied behind exclusivity, i let you people judge on this case.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Or just dodge it, block it, reflect it, destroy it, apply Stability, use an Invuln. And so on there’s counter play to it just saying.

Let the salt flow!!!

That is my point. You should be able to dodge it. Hence why a 0.75s cast time is fair to all concerned.

Rickster.8752:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Or just dodge it, block it, reflect it, destroy it, apply Stability, use an Invuln. And so on there’s counter play to it just saying.

Let the salt flow!!!

That is my point. You should be able to dodge it. Hence why a 0.75s cast time is fair to all concerned.

You can dodge it. That is my point… the projectile still has travel time and does have a precast ans animation to tip you off.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Rickster.8752:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Or just dodge it, block it, reflect it, destroy it, apply Stability, use an Invuln. And so on there’s counter play to it just saying.

Let the salt flow!!!

That is my point. You should be able to dodge it. Hence why a 0.75s cast time is fair to all concerned.

You can dodge it. That is my point… the projectile still has travel time and does have a precast ans animation to tip you off.

The precast animation is identical to pistol#5’s animation. The projectile travel is only relevant if it’s used from maximum range otherwise it’s beyond what you can realistically expect a human to be able to react to.

Also latency. Some of us live in states that don’t have fiber infrastructure.

Rickster.8752:

One or the other. It is very overpowered.

So either headshot should have a cast time (maybe 0.75 seconds to add counter play) or PI should just do about 25-50% less damage.

Things are really not fun.

Time to act.

50% less damage would make it wortless. Damage is not the problem the problem is that u can interrupt everything even autoattacks. It should work only with skills that are not autoattacks to prevent spam.

Reducing thief damage would just make killing bunkers impossible even force a boring necro meta again. Cuz then every class will have its damage nerfed except necros

Emdrix.6124:

Reducing thief damage would just make killing bunkers impossible even force a boring necro meta again. Cuz then every class will have its damage nerfed except necros

I cannot figure how nerfing PI is going to force everyone else’s damage to be nerfed.

Also thieves are not and where never bunker killers.

Also nerfing PI isn’t going to gut thief damage, PI isn’t even the best way to burst on a thief. Nerfing PI is just going to make it so that you can’t kill people by spamming headshot repeatedly.

Crinn.7864:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Rickster.8752:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Or just dodge it, block it, reflect it, destroy it, apply Stability, use an Invuln. And so on there’s counter play to it just saying.

Let the salt flow!!!

That is my point. You should be able to dodge it. Hence why a 0.75s cast time is fair to all concerned.

You can dodge it. That is my point… the projectile still has travel time and does have a precast ans animation to tip you off.

The precast animation is identical to pistol#5’s animation. The projectile travel is only relevant if it’s used from maximum range otherwise it’s beyond what you can realistically expect a human to be able to react to.

Also latency. Some of us live in states that don’t have fiber infrastructure.

There is an animation, it isn’t exactly instanios travel you can see it and still dodge it.

Also why should balanced be done around people with crap internet, that is the worst argument to use.

Or have the damaging trait (ID) have an ICD to prevent the reason people spam it meaninglessly to begin with, while still making it a good interrupt as it’s meant to be.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Crinn.7864:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Rickster.8752:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Or just dodge it, block it, reflect it, destroy it, apply Stability, use an Invuln. And so on there’s counter play to it just saying.

Let the salt flow!!!

That is my point. You should be able to dodge it. Hence why a 0.75s cast time is fair to all concerned.

You can dodge it. That is my point… the projectile still has travel time and does have a precast ans animation to tip you off.

The precast animation is identical to pistol#5’s animation. The projectile travel is only relevant if it’s used from maximum range otherwise it’s beyond what you can realistically expect a human to be able to react to.

Also latency. Some of us live in states that don’t have fiber infrastructure.

There is an animation, it isn’t exactly instanios travel you can see it and still dodge it.

If headshot if fired from sub maximum range it is well beyond what can be reasonably expected of a human to react to. Human reaction in a game is around 0.1 to 0.2 seconds plus latency. Headshot does not take a quarter second to apply.

Also why should balanced be done around people with crap internet, that is the worst argument to use.

Seriously? I have the best internet option in my state but I still have 90-100ms of latency because again my state along with most states that don’t have major metropolitan centers doesn’t have fiber infrastructure.

I’m not asking for the game to balanced around crap internet. I’m asking for the design to account for the fact that many players don’t live next door to a internet hub.

Headshot is intended to be an interrupt, so it necessarily needs to have a very low cast time.
IMHO the problem arises from Impacting Disruption (and a lot of changes over time which have moved a good amount of the damage towards the autoattack, leaving more initiative for utility which in this case is also a good damage source).
If the trait is meant to stay and stay relevant, I would go for either a 1 point initiative increase on headshot (to reduce the spam) along a slight nerf on pulmonary impact damage or an ICD for Impacting Disruption.

Are people really winning by “spamming” head shot? Having 0 initiative is never a good thing. I’ve always used it with intention, myself. I think an ICD on Impacting Disruption would be the fairest change for balance. All the rest of the suggestions make the trait or the skill useless.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Crinn.7864:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Rickster.8752:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Or just dodge it, block it, reflect it, destroy it, apply Stability, use an Invuln. And so on there’s counter play to it just saying.

Let the salt flow!!!

That is my point. You should be able to dodge it. Hence why a 0.75s cast time is fair to all concerned.

You can dodge it. That is my point… the projectile still has travel time and does have a precast ans animation to tip you off.

The precast animation is identical to pistol#5’s animation. The projectile travel is only relevant if it’s used from maximum range otherwise it’s beyond what you can realistically expect a human to be able to react to.

Also latency. Some of us live in states that don’t have fiber infrastructure.

There is an animation, it isn’t exactly instanios travel you can see it and still dodge it.

Also why should balanced be done around people with crap internet, that is the worst argument to use.

The average reaction time, including average latency, is already slightly over 0.25s, and that’s for a completely clear stimulus (not an animation you have to recognize, thus it will have started before even you have the chance to react) and full focus on it.
In order to reactively avoid headshot, a player would need both privileged reflexes and connection, and even with that it shouldn’t be easy. The skill is just not meant to be reactively avoided.

On top of that, it doesn’t make any sense to use a dodge (and thus, interrupt what you were doing) to avoid a skill that’s meant to be an interrupt (fast cast, low damage, 1/4s daze).
IMHO it’s OK to give some damage bonus to well landed interrupts, as long the main goal of the skill is to actually interrupt something relevant (a heal, a dangerous skill, …). If the bonus is so high that spamming the skill every few seconds is still worth the initiative even when interrupting autos, then something is defintely wrong.

Vargamonth.2047:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Crinn.7864:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Rickster.8752:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Or just dodge it, block it, reflect it, destroy it, apply Stability, use an Invuln. And so on there’s counter play to it just saying.

Let the salt flow!!!

That is my point. You should be able to dodge it. Hence why a 0.75s cast time is fair to all concerned.

You can dodge it. That is my point… the projectile still has travel time and does have a precast ans animation to tip you off.

The precast animation is identical to pistol#5’s animation. The projectile travel is only relevant if it’s used from maximum range otherwise it’s beyond what you can realistically expect a human to be able to react to.

Also latency. Some of us live in states that don’t have fiber infrastructure.

There is an animation, it isn’t exactly instanios travel you can see it and still dodge it.

Also why should balanced be done around people with crap internet, that is the worst argument to use.

The average reaction time, including average latency, is already slightly over 0.25s, and that’s for a completely clear stimulus (not an animation you have to recognize, thus it will have started before even you have the chance to react) and full focus on it.
In order to reactively avoid headshot, a player would need both privileged reflexes and connection, and even with that it shouldn’t be easy. The skill is just not meant to be reactively avoided.

On top of that, it doesn’t make any sense to use a dodge (and thus, interrupt what you were doing) to avoid a skill that’s meant to be an interrupt (fast cast, low damage, 1/4s daze).
IMHO it’s OK to give some damage bonus to well landed interrupts, as long the main goal of the skill is to actually interrupt something relevant (a heal, a dangerous skill, …). If the bonus is so high that spamming the skill every few seconds is still worth the initiative even when interrupting autos, then something is defintely wrong.

Funny I also stated there are other ways to counter it all that are fire and forget, like Stability, Invulns, Projectile reflect/destruction/Blocking and so on let’s not forget all the passives also that anti Cc when off CD

Moonsinn.5382:

Are people really winning by “spamming” head shot? Having 0 initiative is never a good thing. I’ve always used it with intention, myself. I think an ICD on Impacting Disruption would be the fairest change for balance. All the rest of the suggestions make the trait or the skill useless.

As a standard power revenant player, I assure you they do. I accept I’m going to have a hard time against a class with an “spammeable” interrupt (so I can hardly land any UA), boon steal and a gap opening dodge, but honestly, bleeding out badly from those interrupts seems a bit too much.
As i said earlier, I would be ok with thieves interrupting my UAs (cause it’s something they definitely want to interrupt) and getting some damage from it. I could try to fight them without relying on UA (which already puts me on a bad position), maybe try to bait a couple of them to make the thief waste some initiative, but we’re on a point where even interrupting my autos, landing one themselves and dodging away can be enough to get me killed. All I can do is rely on LOS and try to land a high enough burst along the blind/reveal from facet of darkness and hope the thief panics and makes some mistake (I won’t have the chance to do the same move again).

Other classes have better chances to deal with this, either with stability, projectile hate or just a high enough passive sustain for pulmanory impact to not be enough, so I’m obviously biased on this matter.
However, these classes still have openings for interrupts to work (the interrupt from steal can also rip stability if not properly covered) and many times skills worth to interrupt. Being able to proc pulmonary impact a couple of times during a short fight seems reasonable enough for the trait to be worth, so I honestly think an ICD of lets say 8-10 seconds (even if I truly hate ICDs) is an arguably fair proposal.

You know you can just stow weapon, watch thief waste 2-3 headshots (does 1 dmg lol) and then continue to murder him because they would have no ini left.
Anet heavily nerfed backstab, all that is left is IP and AA. What do you expect thieves to do? Maybe remove weapons all together? They do dmg after all, so OP!!!

99% of thief dmg is single target and not even highest one in game. Shall we talk about (passive and aoe!!!!) damage from other classes? Yeahhhhhh…..

Also nerfing headshot would make it obsolete as it is intended for interrupts and it would also nerf core build….. for no good reason.

As long as elite specs are built around mindless spam of spells i think IP is only cure. Stop spamming everything, keybind stow weapon = problem solved. Only time i die to PI is when i don’t pay attention which l2p issue on my side.

Thief is finally not trash tier anymore (still nowhere near being OP and braindead like wars and DHs) and people ask for nerfs already…..

@Vargamonth.2047: where were you when revs literary deleted thieves from pvp? I didn’t see you care much about fairness back then.There is class that can make you work to get wins on your main instead of spamming everything off-cd. How all the rev mains told the thieves in previous seasons: deal with it. How about we cut dmg from rev procs by 50% – sounds like fair proposal!

Just add an ICD to PI.

Impacting Disruption definitely needs an ICD, even if its fairly low (3-5 seconds). I just don’t understand why ANet put in an on interrupt trait with not ICD for a class that can spam interrupts back to back. Whether or not its good play on the thief’s part to do that doesn’t change the fact that its ridiculous to have the trait proc so quickly, even more so because it deals a large amount of unblockable damage. A simple ICD on the trait would be fine.

@Cynz – Since you main thief I honestly cannot believe that you are defending this. According to you, the only things that thief has is IP and their auto attack, so from that standpoint it would make more sense to nerf IP while redoing thief so that it doesn’t have to rely on just these two things to be viable.

OriOri.8724:

Impacting Disruption definitely needs an ICD, even if its fairly low (3-5 seconds). I just don’t understand why ANet put in an on interrupt trait with not ICD for a class that can spam interrupts back to back. Whether or not its good play on the thief’s part to do that doesn’t change the fact that its ridiculous to have the trait proc so quickly, even more so because it deals a large amount of unblockable damage. A simple ICD on the trait would be fine.

@Cynz – Since you main thief I honestly cannot believe that you are defending this. According to you, the only things that thief has is IP and their auto attack, so from that standpoint it would make more sense to nerf IP while redoing thief so that it doesn’t have to rely on just these two things to be viable.

Did OP suggest anything else beside flat out nerf that would also affect core build? NO. “Nerf nerf nerf nerf plz everything that annoys me and punishes me for mindless spam!!!” – that is all i saw so far.

I would be all on the nerf wagon with OP if thief was actually broken like DH or war but it is not. It is still one of the least desired classes in pvp. Worse, the more thieves you have on your team the higher chances are that you will lose the match. I can simply ignore thief on my scrapper – this is how threating they are and OP asks for dmg nerfs……

Also IP has CD since it is bound to successfully LANDING (not just brainless fire and forget how other classes do) interrupt (which is either CD or costs initiative).

I don’t see how PI is any worse than the ridiculous things other HoT specs get.

My problem with Thief isn’t so much that they can nearly spam a ranged daze (not to say that that isn’t OP as hell against professions with little stability), but it’s their OP AA damage (which can be dropped now for PvP’s sake and kept up for PvE’s sake, now that they’re splitting skills) and Shadow shot’s damage. Shadows hot is one of those skills that does a lot for one skill. It teleports, it’s ranged, it’s cheap, and it hits insanely hard when combined with a quick AA burst. My suggestions for D/P nerfs are:

- Lower AA damage in PvP only.
- Slash Shadow shot damage significantly
- Increase Headshot initiative by 1.

And now, to help make up for the drop in damage:

- Make extra initiative gain from Trickery baseline. Move initiative spent damage increase to replace it. Lead Attacks does too much for a minor trait.
- Move boon steal with Steal to a GM other than Sleight of Hand.
- Make 20% Steal CD reduction from Sleight of Hand baseline. Keep Trickery based Steal reduction.
- Make some changes to improve Critical Strikes line.
- Add a Stealth Attack damage bonus to Shadow Arts. Why is there no trait that boosts Stealth Attack damage? Critical Strikes has a critical strike increase for those attacks, but that’s a plain damage boost.

With a damage reduction to weapon skills, Thieves will need to get that damage back through traits and sacrificing the Trickery line, which is impossible to sacrifice right now because it’s far too powerful.

Or, instead of boosting damage, they could boost some other utilities or change some weapon skills to be more defensive and allow Thieves to work better in team fights and be able to do a different role. Who knows if that’s at all possible though at this point.

Zintrothen.1056:

My problem with Thief isn’t so much that they can nearly spam a ranged daze (not to say that that isn’t OP as hell against professions with little stability), but it’s their OP AA damage (which can be dropped now for PvP’s sake and kept up for PvE’s sake, now that they’re splitting skills) and Shadow shot’s damage. Shadows hot is one of those skills that does a lot for one skill. It teleports, it’s ranged, it’s cheap, and it hits insanely hard when combined with a quick AA burst. My suggestions for D/P nerfs are:

• Lower AA damage in PvP only.*
• Slash Shadow shot damage significantly*
• Increase Headshot initiative by 1.*

And now, to help make up for the drop in damage:

- Make extra initiative gain from Trickery baseline. Move initiative spent damage increase to replace it. Lead Attacks does too much for a minor trait.
- Move boon steal with Steal to a GM other than Sleight of Hand.
- Make 20% Steal CD reduction from Sleight of Hand baseline. Keep Trickery based Steal reduction.
- Make some changes to improve Critical Strikes line.
- Add a Stealth Attack damage bonus to Shadow Arts. Why is there no trait that boosts Stealth Attack damage? Critical Strikes has a critical strike increase for those attacks, but that’s a plain damage boost.

With a damage reduction to weapon skills, Thieves will need to get that damage back through traits and sacrificing the Trickery line, which is impossible to sacrifice right now because it’s far too powerful.

Or, instead of boosting damage, they could boost some other utilities or change some weapon skills to be more defensive and allow Thieves to work better in team fights and be able to do a different role. Who knows if that’s at all possible though at this point.

So you want to nerf core build……because AA and ss is OP according to you? How about no? Once again, given current state of class what justifies your suggestions?

Trickery will be always mandatory in pvp due to utility.

So far in this thread:
- nerf IP
- nerf headshot
- nerf AA
- nerf shadowshot

Anything else? Delete the class maybe? I mean realistically, how do you expect thieves to compete if you want to strip their damage all together (you already achieved with all the QQ that backstab is worthless in 90% of cases)?
We all saw what happened when thieves couldn’t make a dent in other classes HP (still the case for some classes) – yes, nobody wanted to play the class in any game mode and you would get reported if you brought thief to ranked game. Is THIS what you want?

Cynz.9437:

You know you can just stow weapon, watch thief waste 2-3 headshots (does 1 dmg lol) and then continue to murder him because they would have no ini left.
Anet heavily nerfed backstab, all that is left is IP and AA. What do you expect thieves to do? Maybe remove weapons all together? They do dmg after all, so OP!!!

99% of thief dmg is single target and not even highest one in game. Shall we talk about (passive and aoe!!!!) damage from other classes? Yeahhhhhh…..

Also nerfing headshot would make it obsolete as it is intended for interrupts and it would also nerf core build….. for no good reason.

As long as elite specs are built around mindless spam of spells i think IP is only cure. Stop spamming everything, keybind stow weapon = problem solved. Only time i die to PI is when i don’t pay attention which l2p issue on my side.

@Vargamonth.2047: where were you when revs literary deleted thieves from pvp? I didn’t see you care much about fairness back then.There is class that can make you work to get wins on your main instead of spamming everything off-cd. How all the rev mains told the thieves in previous seasons: deal with it. How about we cut dmg from rev procs by 50% – sounds like fair proposal!

If the thief mashes his headshot button like a madman until he depletes all his initiative, then he’s going to lose, with or without stow weapon. Stow weapon can work, as I said, to bait with UA, but not for autos, and that alone won’t deplete his initiative because he also has steal as interrupt and can dodge UA if not high on initiative.
Stowing autos might save me from Pulmonary Impact damage. It’s definitely better than getting interrupted, but I’ll still receive the damage from thief autos so … if I want to have a chance to win that fight, I have to start hitting him at some point, not knowing when the next interrupt will come and being unable to stow reactively against a 0.25s cast in melee range.
It’s just a matter of patience (not a lot tbh) for the thief to win that fight. A bit of kiting, a bit of autoatacking and a bit of interrupting, keeping all the resources (health, to not die to a burst chain, dodges and to a lesser extent initiative) moderately high while the rev bleeds out (Not doing much damage at once and not getting hit repeteadly will prevent the revenant from healing effectively).

About where I was while the rev was OP, I’ve never denied when asked that revenant was stupidly strong.
I’ve never outraged when nerfed, as it was something expected. At most, I’ve shown my concerns about revenants future based on changes on other classes which could hard counter them. I’m not even asking for reverting any of the last nerfs. The class still feels powerful as offensive +1er and teamfighter, it just gets outclassed in most aspects by thief.
This means that it will probably be replaced by thief on most ESL teams, which is not a big problem as there are always several classes with little presence there. What is worrysome, however, is that the current revenant is a lot more team dependant than thief is, so the gap is larger on a solo/duo queue enviroment. Same could be said about Elementalist and Necromancer.
Warrior and, to a lesser extent, Guardian (in the current state), are some kind of allrounders, and both have an arguably low kill floor, so even if they are not used extensively for 5on5 at ESL level, they get better for solo/duo and remain relevant for the general population.
In the case of Elementalist, Necromancer and Revenant (now again, in the current state), if they are not good enough for ESL teams, it means they’re close to trash tier for solo/duo. That’s definitely a problem, and in revenant’s case, it’s viability is related A LOT to how it balances with thief.

One suggestion I have seen is to make the pulm. impact proc dodgeable. That also opens interesting counterplay to try and force or time dodges to prevent the damage.

It also doesn’t significantly reduce the dps of thief.

The damage is so stupid high and constant that if I wanted to be unfair with thieves I’d just nerf it, but no the best and most fair solution would be to add an ICD.

BlackBeard.2873:

One suggestion I have seen is to make the pulm. impact proc dodgeable. That also opens interesting counterplay to try and force or time dodges to prevent the damage.

It also doesn’t significantly reduce the dps of thief.

Or you use the actual counter play like Stability, Invulns, Dodging the interrupts and so on. It’s not like all the tools aren’t out their, and there are a lot of classes with Non dodgeable effects and damage.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

BlackBeard.2873:

One suggestion I have seen is to make the pulm. impact proc dodgeable. That also opens interesting counterplay to try and force or time dodges to prevent the damage.

It also doesn’t significantly reduce the dps of thief.

Or you use the actual counter play like Stability, Invulns, Dodging the interrupts and so on. It’s not like all the tools aren’t out their, and there are a lot of classes with Non dodgeable effects and damage.

All those other proc-based damage sources (like spinal shivers) need a nerf to their mechanics too. Proc-based spikes are one of the worst things to happen to pvp.

Also, saying “stability, invulns, dodging interrupts” isn’t really a thing on many classes. HoT power-creeped a lot of interrupts, but also handed out lots of free stability to many classes. Those that didn’t get either it, are in a tough spot. Take the ele v. thief fight: your only way to “fight” is survive as long as possible by using no skills except for heals and instants to cover you heals. Ele is a class that (properly) has a pretty long tell on everything they do (like others should). However, when jumped by a thief, its the least fun fight in the world b/c its not actually a fight…its just stalling because its impossible for eles to counter-pressure thief, not even auto-attacks. Also, given that most fights at least have people auto-attacking during the fight, should a thief be awarded for interrupting something as worthless as an autoattack with a bunch of free damage?

I think they just need a 10s ICD on Impact disruption and not touch headshot, remove the blind from shadow shot (damage and the unblockable teleport stay the same), and remove the 1s CD on stealth attacks. d/p should get its damage from backstab and its defense from stealth while shadow shot works as a gap closer. Obviously a lot of things across other professions should be tone down at the same time that these changes would be implemented to not leave the thief completely useless against all the other op classes. The biggest issue that I see is that everyone is cheesing things by spamming skills that provide both defense and offense. The real solution in my opinion is to strip the ability to deal lots of damage while defending oneself. An example of this would be to remove the evade frame from vault completely, and reduce the initiative of dust strike to 3 to balance the weapon out. Another example would be to change dragonhunter’s shield of courage to be an instant cast, but not allow him/her attack without dropping the shield first. Traits can be fixed by placing ICD and other restrictions on them, but I don’t like the Idea of lowering damage on skills as that just makes fights last way too long, especially if they are bunkers.

I think anything over an icd of 1-3 seconds on pulmonary impact would be overkill. I do agree on dropping the evade frames from vault. Maybe add a block on staff 2 or something. Thf also needs more methods to root enemies to set up vault though aside from panic trait and the dagger utility, and basi venom.

Kuya.6495:

I think anything over an icd of 1-3 seconds on pulmonary impact would be overkill. I do agree on dropping the evade frames from vault. Maybe add a block on staff 2 or something. Thf also needs more methods to root enemies to set up vault though aside from panic trait and the dagger utility, and basi venom.

I would like the see the 10s first and if it’s overkill then drop it down. For the root thing I would also like to see how people adapt to the change first, and then maybe discuss adding a smoke field to dust trike (the smoke field would not pulse blind and only be used for combo finishers. It would also mean that the skill would remain at 4 initiative) allowing the thief to use vault or bound to gain stealth and use hook strike to set up a vault or 2. This is assuming they revert the 1s CD on stealth attacks.

It definitely should be nerfed, but let’s not mess up a core weapon set if the problem comes from the elite spec. If PI is OP then nerf PI, not headsot. Maybe give the effect a 5-7s cd? Or -50% damage, rev staff style – CC shouldn’t be the primary source of damage for anything.

witcher.3197:

It definitely should be nerfed, but let’s not mess up a core weapon set if the problem comes from the elite spec. If PI is OP then nerf PI, not headsot. Maybe give the effect a 5-7s cd? Or -50% damage, rev staff style – CC shouldn’t be the primary source of damage for anything.

Best thing for this trait is a cd since it doesn’t crit. I still think shadow shot should lose the blind and d/p should rely on backstab (remove the 1s cd) for its damage. This would be a change to the core weapon, but it’s not an elite spec issue for me and just a fix on something that should have been done way before HoT even released.

Moises.2196:

witcher.3197:

It definitely should be nerfed, but let’s not mess up a core weapon set if the problem comes from the elite spec. If PI is OP then nerf PI, not headsot. Maybe give the effect a 5-7s cd? Or -50% damage, rev staff style – CC shouldn’t be the primary source of damage for anything.

Best thing for this trait is a cd since it doesn’t crit. I still think shadow shot should lose the blind and d/p should rely on backstab (remove the 1s cd) for its damage. This would be a change to the core weapon, but it’s not an elite spec issue for me and just a fix on something that should have been done way before HoT even released.

So core build should be nerfed because of your personal preferences? What an amazing argument. My personal preference is that revs get deleted from the game because i said so – sounds ridiculous, doesn’kitten

I still see not a single good argument WHY thief should be nerfed given current state of classes. Other classes are so stupidly overtuned (at least elite specs) and you demand that core build and DD gets nerfed massively because it prevents you from mindless spam that plagued game since HoT launch?

As said before, there is plenty of counterplay including blocks, blinds, stab, invuls, dodges, counter-cc, instants, reflects, projectile hate, stow weapon etc. Even if you play class that doesn’t have much access to it, you have other tools like lot of heals or counter pressure. Also, thing is – it is just a source of damage, should we ask for revs damage to be removed from sword? DH traps do no damage? This is literary what you are asking for. You will get hit by something, it will do damage to your character, deal with it. It is not like IP does actually insane damage (ca. 3k on good day on squishy) compared to other classes. How is it any different than warrior using near instant arcing slice that does 7k+ damage with huge aoe range or scrappers having damage multiplies similar to backstab on every spell?

I see necros complain about thief however 1. there should be some kind of way to deal with necros otherwise they would rampage like in s2 (do you know how it is for scrappers to deal with necros right now? yeahhhh hopeless) 2. have you ever played thief vs half decent necro as a thief? You will get instagibbed by their 10000 of procs and AoE if you mess up once, it is not like thief has easy ride vs any class right now. Even attacking necros already gives you condis w/o necro actually doing anything and you complain about thief successfully landing his interrupt….

Thief is about only class in this game that is still mainly about active gameplay (you actually have to time and press your buttons instead of relying on 109238018230 passives and instants), still heavily depends on team, can’t hold point to save their lives nor fight any class 1v1 on point and you ask for nerfs? If you want damage nerf for thieves, sure, BUT only for elite spec, revert of all backstab nerfs and only if other classes get heavily nerfed as well (a lot would need to change) which will not happen given how Anet balanced things in the past.

As far as revs go, you guys have plenty of tools to deal with thief (blocks, evades, blinds, stab, CC), good revs still murder everything on their way. If they can do it vs other good players, why can’t you? You have to rely on team to do well? Well, newsflash – it has been like this for roamers for years now, welcome to the club. Claiming that thief doesn’t rely as much on team is just plain lie. Frankly, due to their dependency on stealth, they rely more on someone sitting in point than any other class.

I can see the ithilwen comparison someone mentioned.

Also rev loses to thief hands down and has less mobility as it requires a target to teleport to, not very good for a quick decap or buff grab. If you lose to rev as thief try dueling them a bit, IP completely destroys them once they’ve rotated through precision strike/UA combo.

Zintrothen.1056:

My problem with Thief isn’t so much that they can nearly spam a ranged daze (not to say that that isn’t OP as hell against professions with little stability), but it’s their OP AA damage (which can be dropped now for PvP’s sake and kept up for PvE’s sake, now that they’re splitting skills) and Shadow shot’s damage. Shadows hot is one of those skills that does a lot for one skill. It teleports, it’s ranged, it’s cheap, and it hits insanely hard when combined with a quick AA burst.

My suggestions for D/P nerfs are:

- Lower AA damage in PvP only.
- Slash Shadow shot damage significantly
- Increase Headshot initiative by 1.

While I don’t have a problem with most of this, the issue is that doing this will nerf core thief for the sake of a HoT trait, which isn’t on. The majority of thieves at the time thought the AA buffs were over the top, and honestly yes, shadow shot does a lot, but compared to some of the other classes’ HoT power creep it’s pretty tame tbh. Nerf sustain and damage across the board and then we can talk about nerfs to thief.

Zintrothen.1056:

And now, to help make up for the drop in damage:

- Make extra initiative gain from Trickery baseline. Move initiative spent damage increase to replace it. Lead Attacks does too much for a minor trait.

So you want to swap lead attacks, a minor trait, with either preparedness or kleptomaniac (depending on your definition of initiative gain), also minor traits? OK then.

Zintrothen.1056:

- Move boon steal with Steal to a GM other than Sleight of Hand.

Not being able to interrupt through stab destroys the point of taking the boon steal. This is a flat out nerf, not a buff.

Zintrothen.1056:

- Make 20% Steal CD reduction from Sleight of Hand baseline. Keep Trickery based Steal reduction.

There has been no Trickery based Steal reduction since the spec patch. So this change is rather pointless on its own.

Zintrothen.1056:

- Make some changes to improve Critical Strikes line.

Good in theory, but honestly, what can you add to a line this specialised? No sarcasm, I just don’t know how to improve it personally. Give us some examples.

Zintrothen.1056:

- Add a Stealth Attack damage bonus to Shadow Arts. Why is there no trait that boosts Stealth Attack damage? Critical Strikes has a critical strike increase for those attacks, but that’s a plain damage boost.

Shadow Arts use to grant might while in stealth, and while a damage boost to sneak attacks would not promote passive play in the same way as that trait did, it’s still contrary to the design of the spec and to your intention of forcing thieves to have to trait for more damage over Trickery.

Besides, do you really want one shot thieves to have the utility of Shadow Arts? I didn’t think so.

Zintrothen.1056:

With a damage reduction to weapon skills, Thieves will need to get that damage back through traits and sacrificing the Trickery line, which is impossible to sacrifice right now because it’s far too powerful.

Or, instead of boosting damage, they could boost some other utilities or change some weapon skills to be more defensive and allow Thieves to work better in team fights and be able to do a different role. Who knows if that’s at all possible though at this point.

You just straight up nerfed the Trickery line into the floor to try to promote either critical strikes, which you have made no suggestions on how to improve, or shadow arts, a line that should be taken at the cost of damage. On top of that, your suggestions make it clear you don’t fully understand thief mechanics. This sort of clueless balancing is why were in the state we are, so no thank you.

Cynz.9437:

Moises.2196:

witcher.3197:

It definitely should be nerfed, but let’s not mess up a core weapon set if the problem comes from the elite spec. If PI is OP then nerf PI, not headsot. Maybe give the effect a 5-7s cd? Or -50% damage, rev staff style – CC shouldn’t be the primary source of damage for anything.

Best thing for this trait is a cd since it doesn’t crit. I still think shadow shot should lose the blind and d/p should rely on backstab (remove the 1s cd) for its damage. This would be a change to the core weapon, but it’s not an elite spec issue for me and just a fix on something that should have been done way before HoT even released.

So core build should be nerfed because of your personal preferences? What an amazing argument. My personal preference is that revs get deleted from the game because i said so – sounds ridiculous, doesn’kitten

I still see not a single good argument WHY thief should be nerfed given current state of classes. Other classes are so stupidly overtuned (at least elite specs) and you demand that core build and DD gets nerfed massively because it prevents you from mindless spam that plagued game since HoT launch?

As said before, there is plenty of counterplay including blocks, blinds, stab, invuls, dodges, counter-cc, instants, reflects, projectile hate, stow weapon etc. Even if you play class that doesn’t have much access to it, you have other tools like lot of heals or counter pressure. Also, thing is – it is just a source of damage, should we ask for revs damage to be removed from sword? DH traps do no damage? This is literary what you are asking for. You will get hit by something, it will do damage to your character, deal with it. It is not like IP does actually insane damage (ca. 3k on good day on squishy) compared to other classes. How is it any different than warrior using near instant arcing slice that does 7k+ damage with huge aoe range or scrappers having damage multiplies similar to backstab on every spell?

I see necros complain about thief however 1. there should be some kind of way to deal with necros otherwise they would rampage like in s2 (do you know how it is for scrappers to deal with necros right now? yeahhhh hopeless) 2. have you ever played thief vs half decent necro as a thief? You will get instagibbed by their 10000 of procs and AoE if you mess up once, it is not like thief has easy ride vs any class right now. Even attacking necros already gives you condis w/o necro actually doing anything and you complain about thief successfully landing his interrupt….

Thief is about only class in this game that is still mainly about active gameplay (you actually have to time and press your buttons instead of relying on 109238018230 passives and instants), still heavily depends on team, can’t hold point to save their lives nor fight any class 1v1 on point and you ask for nerfs? If you want damage nerf for thieves, sure, BUT only for elite spec, revert of all backstab nerfs and only if other classes get heavily nerfed as well (a lot would need to change) which will not happen given how Anet balanced things in the past.

As far as revs go, you guys have plenty of tools to deal with thief (blocks, evades, blinds, stab, CC), good revs still murder everything on their way. If they can do it vs other good players, why can’t you? You have to rely on team to do well? Well, newsflash – it has been like this for roamers for years now, welcome to the club. Claiming that thief doesn’t rely as much on team is just plain lie. Frankly, due to their dependency on stealth, they rely more on someone sitting in point than any other class.

Blocks = necro has none
Instant cast skills = necro has none
Stability = basically none
Blinds = will never land it on a thief
Invulns = none
Projectile hate = 1 utility which is bad
Stow weapon = If I do this I will just die to 1 spam anyway

So what does a necro do vs PI? Thief and mesmer have always killed necros. But it is particularly bad currently.

I somewhat agree headshot itself is too rewarding, especially due to other changes that have happened. If it cost 5 initiative it can only be used twice successively instead of 3 times which is pretty big.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Instant cast skills = necro has none
Stability = basically none

These two i feel are a tad hyperbolic..

Cynz.9437:

Moises.2196:

witcher.3197:

It definitely should be nerfed, but let’s not mess up a core weapon set if the problem comes from the elite spec. If PI is OP then nerf PI, not headsot. Maybe give the effect a 5-7s cd? Or -50% damage, rev staff style – CC shouldn’t be the primary source of damage for anything.

Best thing for this trait is a cd since it doesn’t crit. I still think shadow shot should lose the blind and d/p should rely on backstab (remove the 1s cd) for its damage. This would be a change to the core weapon, but it’s not an elite spec issue for me and just a fix on something that should have been done way before HoT even released.

So core build should be nerfed because of your personal preferences? What an amazing argument. My personal preference is that revs get deleted from the game because i said so – sounds ridiculous, doesn’kitten

If you want damage nerf for thieves, sure, BUT only for elite spec, revert of all backstab nerfs and only if other classes get heavily nerfed as well (a lot would need to change) which will not happen given how Anet balanced things in the past.

Ok so it’s not so much about the personal play style that I want but the fact that shadow shot does 3 things. It deals good damage, blinds (defend), and close the gap. This skill simply does too much. The thing with PI is that it makes head shot do too much and it can me spammed. Interrupts are flexible and can be used to defend yourself or to apply pressure to the enemy and PI now adds damage to it. Fight a Daredevil with your core thief and you’ll see the issue (unless your spamming shadow shot yourself or spamming d/d 3 condi). And yes, all other classes need huge nerfs too, primarily with their defensive abilities which is what led to the removal of tank amulets. Also, that 1s stealth attack nerf was completely uncalled for and I agree with you there. I understand the frustration with seeing people post nerfs on thief when it can barely 1v1 even though the description of the class says “They’re deadly in one-on-one combat using their agility, acrobatic fighting style, and the ability to steal to overcome their enemies.” ,but you have to understand that just because all the other classes are broken, it doesn’t mean we should ignore this class’ problems. There needs to be a huge nerf starting with elite specs and then fixing core issues that were forgotten about.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Blocks = necro has none
Instant cast skills = necro has none
Stability = basically none
Blinds = will never land it on a thief
Invulns = none
Projectile hate = 1 utility which is bad
Stow weapon = If I do this I will just die to 1 spam anyway

So what does a necro do vs PI? Thief and mesmer have always killed necros. But it is particularly bad currently.

- necro with blocks would be insane
- no instants? how about we don’t lie here (ds, procs and co. don’t exist eh?)
- you get stab in DS, that is still by far more than thief himself has lol
- actually you have multiple ways to land blind, if i can do it on my necro then anyone can
- necros with invuls would be nightmare, you have high HP pool, DS and perma weakness to mitigate the damage
- it is still an utility, it is your choice not to take
- thief, unlike other classes can either cast interrupt (beside steal) or use AA, not both at the same time…. count interrupts, if they spam it, they will be out of ini and you can murder them; if they don’t spam it you wouldn’t be taking much dmg from IP on first place….

So what does necro do vs thieves? Load them with condis and pray that your fellow ele heals you, just like vs any class really. I can also ask you question: what does scrapper do vs necro in current state? It is so stupidly one sided it is not even funny, i don’t see you asking for necro nerfs though… where are they, Henry?

Please nerf paper, scissors are ok. With love, rock!

Moises.2196:

Ok so it’s not so much about the personal play style that I want but the fact that shadow shot does 3 things. It deals good damage, blinds (defend), and close the gap. This skill simply does too much. The thing with PI is that it makes head shot do too much and it can me spammed. Interrupts are flexible and can be used to defend yourself or to apply pressure to the enemy and PI now adds damage to it. Fight a Daredevil with your core thief and you’ll see the issue (unless your spamming shadow shot yourself or spamming d/d 3 condi). And yes, all other classes need huge nerfs too, primarily with their defensive abilities which is what led to the removal of tank amulets. Also, that 1s stealth attack nerf was completely uncalled for and I agree with you there. I understand the frustration with seeing people post nerfs on thief when it can barely 1v1 even though the description of the class says “They’re deadly in one-on-one combat using their agility, acrobatic fighting style, and the ability to steal to overcome their enemies.” ,but you have to understand that just because all the other classes are broken, it doesn’t mean we should ignore this class’ problems. There needs to be a huge nerf starting with elite specs and then fixing core issues that were forgotten about.

There are a lot of spells that do multiple things, e.g. BF from mes, necro wells (e.g. wells on my build corrupt condis, do damage and give me protection) etc. Should we gut them all?

I actually play core on my alt account because it has no HoT (it is also in plat, as my main), i have no issue fighting DD thieves ironically. I actually have more issue fighting other elite specs because core doesn’t have IP and has to rely on overnerfed backstab which doesn’t work so well on passive overloaded crap introduced with HoT (e.g. all hammer skills on scrapp hammer). Because i play core, i don’t see why weaponset itself should be nerfed. It already struggles as it is.

I agree that DD needs nerfing but only if other elite specs see meaningful nerfs. As it is right now, people just ask for plain DD nerfs – that is all. I don’t agree with it, i still have flashbacks from s1 when i got constantly reported and griefed for simply playing the class before the match even started because thief was in such sad state – i don’t want the same history repeat again.

Rickster.8752:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Or just dodge it, block it, reflect it, destroy it, apply Stability, use an Invuln. And so on there’s counter play to it just saying.

Let the salt flow!!!

That is my point. You should be able to dodge it. Hence why a 0.75s cast time is fair to all concerned.

Pulmonary impact doesn’t even proc if you aren’t casting a skill..
With other words, there’s no point dodging headshot if you’re not casting a skill.

#notathiefplayer

Cynz.9437:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Blocks = necro has none
Instant cast skills = necro has none
Stability = basically none
Blinds = will never land it on a thief
Invulns = none
Projectile hate = 1 utility which is bad
Stow weapon = If I do this I will just die to 1 spam anyway

So what does a necro do vs PI? Thief and mesmer have always killed necros. But it is particularly bad currently.

- necro with blocks would be insane
- no instants? how about we don’t lie here (ds, procs and co. don’t exist eh?)
- you get stab in DS, that is still by far more than thief himself has lol
- actually you have multiple ways to land blind, if i can do it on my necro then anyone can
- necros with invuls would be nightmare, you have high HP pool, DS and perma weakness to mitigate the damage
- it is still an utility, it is your choice not to take
- thief, unlike other classes can either cast interrupt (beside steal) or use AA, not both at the same time…. count interrupts, if they spam it, they will be out of ini and you can murder them; if they don’t spam it you wouldn’t be taking much dmg from IP on first place….

So what does necro do vs thieves? Load them with condis and pray that your fellow ele heals you, just like vs any class really. I can also ask you question: what does scrapper do vs necro in current state? It is so stupidly one sided it is not even funny, i don’t see you asking for necro nerfs though… where are they, Henry?

Please nerf paper, scissors are ok. With love, rock!

Moises.2196:

Ok so it’s not so much about the personal play style that I want but the fact that shadow shot does 3 things. It deals good damage, blinds (defend), and close the gap. This skill simply does too much. The thing with PI is that it makes head shot do too much and it can me spammed. Interrupts are flexible and can be used to defend yourself or to apply pressure to the enemy and PI now adds damage to it. Fight a Daredevil with your core thief and you’ll see the issue (unless your spamming shadow shot yourself or spamming d/d 3 condi). And yes, all other classes need huge nerfs too, primarily with their defensive abilities which is what led to the removal of tank amulets. Also, that 1s stealth attack nerf was completely uncalled for and I agree with you there. I understand the frustration with seeing people post nerfs on thief when it can barely 1v1 even though the description of the class says “They’re deadly in one-on-one combat using their agility, acrobatic fighting style, and the ability to steal to overcome their enemies.” ,but you have to understand that just because all the other classes are broken, it doesn’t mean we should ignore this class’ problems. There needs to be a huge nerf starting with elite specs and then fixing core issues that were forgotten about.

There are a lot of spells that do multiple things, e.g. BF from mes, necro wells (e.g. wells on my build corrupt condis, do damage and give me protection) etc. Should we gut them all?

I actually play core on my alt account because it has no HoT (it is also in plat, as my main), i have no issue fighting DD thieves ironically. I actually have more issue fighting other elite specs because core doesn’t have IP and has to rely on overnerfed backstab which doesn’t work so well on passive overloaded crap introduced with HoT (e.g. all hammer skills on scrapp hammer). Because i play core, i don’t see why weaponset itself should be nerfed. It already struggles as it is.

I agree that DD needs nerfing but only if other elite specs see meaningful nerfs. As it is right now, people just ask for plain DD nerfs – that is all. I don’t agree with it, i still have flashbacks from s1 when i got constantly reported and griefed for simply playing the class before the match even started because thief was in such sad state – i don’t want the same history repeat again.

Just to not get side tracked with minor details, we can all agree that elite specs across the board need to be nerfed right? I’m just curious to see as to how we should go about it. I think their defensive abilities are the main issue. Its allowing people that deal zerker damage play care free like some tank and forcing classes to move to a more defensive and cheesy spec. An example would be season 1 warrior, they dealt the same amount of damage but they didn’t have the survivability that they do today. They were treated the same as thieves. After they got their defenses buffed, now we see complaints on how op they are. Thoughts?

BlackBeard.2873:

One suggestion I have seen is to make the pulm. impact proc dodgeable. That also opens interesting counterplay to try and force or time dodges to prevent the damage.

It also doesn’t significantly reduce the dps of thief.

last time i suggested this on Sind .tv chat prty much everyone agreed on this beeing a good sollution.
Not only allows some playing around PI damage, but remowes the cancer PI→BasiVenom aids through dodge mechanics aswell.

Crinn.7864:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Rickster.8752:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Or just dodge it, block it, reflect it, destroy it, apply Stability, use an Invuln. And so on there’s counter play to it just saying.

Let the salt flow!!!

That is my point. You should be able to dodge it. Hence why a 0.75s cast time is fair to all concerned.

You can dodge it. That is my point… the projectile still has travel time and does have a precast ans animation to tip you off.

The precast animation is identical to pistol#5’s animation. The projectile travel is only relevant if it’s used from maximum range otherwise it’s beyond what you can realistically expect a human to be able to react to.

Also latency. Some of us live in states that don’t have fiber infrastructure.

Hold on … latency is never a reason for a game dev to increase skill cast times. Carry on.

@Moises.2196: yeah i agree. As i said it wouldn’t be issue with IP nerf IF other elite specs get nerfed (go play core vs elite, you will know what i mean), as it is right now, people just ask for flat out DD nerfs without any consideration of the state of other classes.