Guild Wars 2

Daliz.8394:

and one more thing that just naging me, is that every other new spec class have an red name taging there class form yes iam talking about the devs,talking about this and that even droping an trait info, it´s like non of are even playing an necro.

Historically Necromancers have had to buy the Devs cakes to get them to notice us. :P

More seriously why aren’t our shouts instant… like every existing shout in the game. One of the massive advantages (instant/uninterruptable and can be used without interrupting other skills) of that skill type is denied to our class. (Only argument I can see is the mediocre damage – which I’d trade for actual support… or blast finishers which necros can’t have.)

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Blast Finishers – It’s not happening. It’s super not-necro like. There are other ways to be viable

This is the problem with necromancer, we are a class design around exclusions.

We can’t have blast finishers (yet axe 3 screams blast, warhorn 5 seems fitting, etc)

We can’t be mobile or have decent escape options.

We can’t have block, evade, invulnerable, or vigor.

We apparently can’t have instant shouts. (Like every single current shout in the game)

No other class is build with so many limitations and the two other elites announced actually cover their base class’s limitations. (Mesmers lack of AoE damage (plus more unique support) and guardians lack of decent range damage and damaging utilities.)

This would have been the perfect time to have reapers shroud use life force as an energy (burned by the skills) not life. Then because we don’t have the two terrifying heathbars they could give GS and RP a block/evade/invulnerable. (As an example Fade could be our own little distortion – Reaper temporarily becomes incorporeal (evade) or something like the RS shadow armour skill’s concept but acting as a block.)

This new shroud would allow them to balance reaper like a normal melee and necromancer more like a caster. (Although I still think the base class deserves much more effort then has been given.)

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Moa-Morph-inconsistently-effects-Minions/first#post2664582

There was a brief time I believed in the bug tracker but after so long it might as well be designed to specifically punish necromancers.

Slightly off topic but important due to engineer exilir x buff.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Moa-Morph-inconsistently-effects-Minions/first#post2664582

This was added to the bug tracker over a year ago.

@UndeadPriest.8632

Good idea! Added yours plus the New Healing Skill Livestream

Necrochild.1497

I fail to see how we were any better at attrition a year ago, or better at pretty much anything other than being a source of free bags.

Nerfing Retaliation (A big part of early defensive Deathshroud build’s dps), Removal (or Re-removal) of Deathshroud Absorb and adding iCDs to Spectral Skills were all pretty huge hits to our Attrition.

So my point stands that while there have been moments between release and now that we have been closer to an actual attrition class, right now we are as far away as we have ever been.

Necrochild.1497

Are you actually arguing that we were somehow better off back then?

We have gained very little at best in the last 16+ months and most of it has been trades like Dhuumfire and Deathly Preception for our Defense (Deathshroud Absorb) or Group Support (Putrid Mark).

Better or Worse is difficult to say. It does seem that Necromancers have increased in power slower then other classes and we are further then we have ever been from the Attrition class that was originally described.

Necrochild.1497

Well, sorry to hear that. I have difficulties being quite so pessimistic, I remember where we were at a year ago.

Closer to an actual attrition class? (Albeit more broken in terms of bugs etc.)

Bweaty.9187

I’ve bought multi-copys of the game for friends, only one even bothered play long enough to reach 80.
I can happily spend $80 a month on cash shop.
I’ve played since beta. I’ve tried to main a necro all the way.
How’s it been for me and my wallet voting? Less fun, worse & worse. So that doesn’t really work out.

As for the it’s free to play argument… Who care’s? It’s the ‘investment’ of ‘time, love & enjoyment’. As soon as ‘the next actual fun thing’ comes along, it won’t matter if it’s free to play vs $60 a month subby. I’m investing in the ‘fun’.

It’s purely the ‘fun’ that matters.

This isn’t counter to voting with your wallet ~ it just sounds like your value line is lower. As long as it offer basic amusement and there is nothing else out that you see as more “fun” then you are willing to spend money. (Investing in fun is really the core point when it comes to “voting” on an entertainment product.)

I’m actually pretty close to that only the Dec 10th patch has made me stop buying cash shop stuff. Mainly because I’m not confident in this games future (with me) when I compare its current state with new games on the horizon.

Sadly just because we spend more on the cash shop then others doesn’t mean the Devs have to do what we say. Spending money and playing is only a +1 for the current direction. Every single other player gets there vote too. Some won’t spend money because they don’t have faith in the direction of the game and others won’t spend money because they cannot afford to.

That said it’s the broad picture that matters, if the game keeps growing (concurrent logins) and increasing in quarter over quarter revenue (which it wasn’t last earnings call – but that was attributed to “normal” MMO evolution) then they are on the right path. If not they will have to read what players want and adjust the game to satisfy the majority.

Rigel.3092

Unreal how some of you let yourselves get to the point of feeling like you do. Ah well, I suppose I will continue to play with my tank necro in WvW and enjoy the steady and copious amounts of badges and loot bags I have long gotten in WvW – 77848 kills and mounting. I love my necro!

For myself at least Necromancer is 95%+ of my playtime and I still love and almost exclusively play it. I have invested 1800+ hrs and alot of money into this profession and don’t regret any of it.

That, however; will not stop me from trying to lobby for changes or at bare minimum trying to get an actual Dev (not a QA tester) to seriously play the class and make their own conclusions. (And I mean play in all aspects of the game, PvE, WvW, sPvP, Dungeons, and FotM.)

Lily.1935

The Stomping and rezing allies isn’t a fix to everything or even most of our problems. its SOMETHING. I’m asking for something. In this thread, I’m basically asking for scraps.

Lily.1935

I’m fully aware of this. The nerfs haven’t effected me. I’m more at a general unhappiness with how things are going and SoV was just a breaking point.

Exactly. Even though each member of the community might not agree with each other, it really does seem like we are all just asking for something, anything… Right now every patch feels like another defeat without any hope of victory.

And still we beg only for scraps… as our profession drifts so far from what it was and what it could be.

Hopefully they have the curtesy to leave it open. Despiting wanting to leave in-line criticisms I forced myself not to because it was a lot of working compiling the links and I wanted it as an unbiased reference resource.

I plan to keep updating it, hopefully the future links are in a better tone.

Bhawb.7408

Devs don’t have tons of contact because every post they make not only has to be very smartly filtered (look at what’s happened the last few times devs have posted about us), but they have to be very “diplomatic” about it. Every post that they make in the Necro forums needs to be reciprocated in every other forum.

Except that this is not occuring ~ Examples of poor “filtering” began the first month of the game and continues still (The Dev Live stream when they introduced our healing signet), I have yet to see any examples of the Learn to Play/Learn to Build/Putrid Mark Posts directed at any other class.

On top of this Necromancers receive little to no reciprocation for posts on other classes. The Dev|Player back and forth discussion for Elementalist, Warriors, and Thieves was honestly inspiring…. But honestly a Dev would have to play our class in some seriousness to address our issues. Which is something that at this point the onus is on them to prove.

In the end I want the Necromancer profession to continue to develop (ideally towards the attrition class they were originally heralded as) and do not by any stretch want the class to be overpowered. I choose to approach discussion of this profession as a realist, rather then an apologist, and sadly expect the patterns established in the past to continue in the future. Unfortunately these patterns and releases like Mark of Vampirism mean that the Necromancer community have to be more demanding of the attention it deserves.

Bhawb.7408

If you dislike where we are now, play something else. Its f2p, you can just leave the game for 4 years and come back later, nothing really lost.

I agree, as this is very much “voting with your wallet”. Hopefully though, for the success of the game, the developers address these issues before players and potentially their guilds leave for greener pastures.

Honestly, as sad as it is I think most Necromancers would be satisfied with basic (non-condescending) communication.

Something along the lines of:

“We understand the Mark of Vampirism is an undesirable skill and should never have been release in its current state. As soon as we are able we are going to re-evaluate or overhaul the skill, unfortunately this is unlikely to happen until the new year.”

(Most of us will still be a little miffed that we are once again not “worth” their time, but should be able to accept that an error was made that will take time to correct.)

or

“We understand that players who use condition heavy builds are concern about traits like Diamond Skin, Automated Response, and Berserker Stance, however; we do feel that the current meta is too condition heavy and wanted some traits/skills that had the potential to push the current system.

That said this is something we are watching closely and would eventually like to adjust Automated Response and Berserker Stance to be a true 100% reduction in duration that could then be countered by the applying player’s additional condition duration.
For Diamond Skin we may end up somewhere in the middle pushing the trait to 80~85% threashold but a 100% condition duration reduction as well.

We feel this will change those skills to soft counters and adding something of a “third” stat for condition users to strongly consider."

(Again probably not the immediate correction we want, but gives us hope for the future and significantly beats being completely ignored.)

(Obviously there are a hundred other examples, deathshroud absorb, lack of active defense, putrid mark hurting Necromancer’s limited support options, etc, that I could have used as examples, but these particularly have been in the forums a lot recently.)

digowl.9620

What is interesting to note is how much of this is from the SPVP forum…

Yup which is why the PvEer are still just playing it awhile to see how the lack of Deathshroud Absorb “feels”.

also

I tried to keep the Opening Posts unbiased but my favorites are, Learn to Play, Learn to Build, because we were awesome before launch, and Putrid Mark.

I did just because Perma-Links have all the urls as well!

Alexandra Triplett: Quickening Thirst Bug
December 14th, 2012 Patch
Jonathan Sharp: Class Balance Philosophies
CC Eva: Closing a New Fix Thread
CC Meinke: Response to Condition Immune Mobs Thread
Jonathan Sharp: Stealth Counters
November 15, 2012 Patch
Jason King: Necro 100+ Pet Exploit
Jonathan Sharp: Necromancer Attrition and Blocking Escape
Cake III
The Cake II
The Cake
Jon Peters: Jagged Horrors Aggroing/Rallying
Robert Hrouda: Jagged Horrors and Lupi Grubs
Jonathan Sharp: Necromancers Boycotting the Forums
October 22nd, 2012 Patch
CC Eva: Closing a Thread for Staff Calling
CC Eva: Closing “Jon Peters plays necro goes exactly how you imagine” Thread
October 7th, 2012
CC Eva: Lets see your Necromancers
October 1st, 2012
CC Eva: Necromancer Bug Compilation Thread
September 25th, 2012 Patch
Jon Peters: Deathshroud “Builds”
Jon Peters: Inability to See Boons and Conditions in Deathshroud
Jon Peters: Deathshroud “Mastery”
Jon Peters: Thanking Community for Necromancer Bug Compilation
CC Ivonne: Jagged Horror Sound Bug
CC Eva: Closing Necromancer Feedback Thread
CC Eva: Warning to Stay on Topic in Necromancer Useless Traits Thread
Jason King: Bug Collection

State of Necromancer After Deathshroud Nerf – Entire Thread
The Post Deathshroud Absorb Discussion – Entire Thread
July 23rd, 2013 Patch
July 9th, 2013 Patch
Jonathan Sharp: Small changes to all classes, including necros
June 25th, 2013
June 11th, 2013
May 28th, 2013 Patch
Jonathan Sharp: The State of Necromancer – History Lesson
Jon Peters: Referencing Necro in Guardian Buff
April 30th, 2013
Robert Hrouda: Lupi Solo
Cody Crichton: Chainsaw Noise
Cody Crichton: Irratating Sound
Mark Katzbach: Necroposted
March 26th, 2013 Patch
Martin Kerstein: Thread got “Necro’d”
Jason King: AR and Deathshroud
Jason King: Final Rest graphics Bug
Robert Hrouda: Necro Minions drawing Ectoplasms
February 26, 2013 Patch
Robert Hrouda:Lupi and Grubs Confirmed Fix
Cody Crichton: Pet Sound Volume
January 28, 2013
Jonathan Sharp: AoE
Jason King: Necro Minions not attacking
Robert Hrouda: Lupi using grubs on non-players finally fixed
Karl McLain: Devs playing Necro

New Healing Skills Livestream (Nov, 2013)
Necromancer PvE Livestream (August 2013) ~ Thanks UndeadPriest.8632
Necromancer PvP Livestream (June 2013) ~ Thanks UndeadPriest.8632

December 10th Patch
Justin O’Dell: On many Necros in sPvP Matches
Tyler Chapman: Claims to Play Necro
November 26th 2013 Patch
Dec 10th Necromancer – Entire Thread
Tyler Chapman: Putrid Mark Tooltip Update – 2 Posts
Dec 10th Preview – Entire Thread
Roy Cronacher: Lifeforce Display
October 15th Patch
Josh Davis: Well of Power Bug
Josh Davis: Mark of Evasion Bug
Jonathan Sharp: Oct 15th Balance Preview
Josh Davis: Bug List
September 9th, 2013 Hotfix Feedback – 2 Posts
Jonathan Sharp: Telegraphing Marks – 2 Posts
September 3rd, 2013 Patch
Josh Davis: Strength of Undeath Bug
August 20th, 2013 Patch
August 6th, 2013 Patch
Robert Hrouda: Gambits and Necro
Feedback on Recent Necro Changes – Entire Thread
Allie Murdock: Dhumfire Nerf Prep. – Entire Thread
Jonathan Sharp: “Cute” Deathshroud’s Defense Thread – Entire Thread
Jonathan Sharp: Death Shroud Survivability – Entire Thread
Jonathan Sharp: Greater Marks
Jonathan Sharp: Deathshroud Nerf “Play it awhile and see.” – Entire Thread

Bhawb.7408

What heal? Didn’t you know? They only added 7 to the game, the one you see for Necromancers is actually a bug… cough.

Naw it was a bug, but they updated the patch notes to reflect its intended effects…

It’s the Wintersday Patch and all the professions get a new toy from ANET for being good all year long!

Lets see what they get

Bhawb.7408

GASP a whole 5k damage? That’s like, one whole LB!

Truth. And due to the 1.25 sec cast time it would actually be a DPS LOSS vs. LB or Dagger chain…

(Blood Fiend, however; assuming you summon pre-combat is a DPS gain.)

Andele.1306

No because its not final, we dont know if its bonkers (which it probably is), point being we already got a good staple and a good support heal that really noone would change that signet in for.

I suppose for me it doesn’t matter what we have, its that every other class is getting a heal somewhere between situationally good and OP. While we get a signet that will literally mark you as a clueless free kill.

Worst of all its original form could have opened up some interesting builds ~ if somewhat dangerous to not have a spike heal. Instead we are still stuck with one viable spvp build that is being nerfed.

As for not being final, we will see tuesday. I pray your right, but am confident it will not change.

Andele.1306

You know how about instead of raging at the new skill, lets hope that the next heal we get is a spectral without internal cooldown and a new elite to be grenths balance that instantly triggers on us falling to 1% hp (think avernus from Dota) that works in % not in actual numbers like LF did.

So instead of trying to get the current skill fixed (or the current state of Necromancer looked at) we should just hold on till the next skill?

Don’t worry about balance, because the next next balance patch will be the Necromancer miracle patch… right?

Oh I’m confident they could pull a report that shows profession playtime over gems purchased.

If not, be Vocal, they may one day remember that Necromancers have a class forum.

In truth Voting with your wallet may only show that you are unsatisfied, which is good enough. Loss of revenue whether from Necromancers specifically or more general groups (WvWers, PvPers, etc) show that they are moving in the wrong direction. How they correct that is up to them. I can only cast my “vote” and recommend others to do the same.

(Everytime I buy something I am showing that I want more of that style of product on the market and not another style. For example when I eat at a McDonalds I’m “Voting” for speed and convience (or laziness) vs. the style or quality of a “higher end” restaurant. I’m also voting that of all the fast food joints some of the time or all of the time I favour theirs.)

Bhawb.7408

If anything, removing monetary support of the game hurts you. It means they have less resources, which is already a huge problem with why we don’t get fixed. If they had more resources, they could make more aggressive changes with our class.

The developers are employed to make a product that will encourage us to spend real money on the gem store (should be read as a functioning and enjoyable game). If they are unable to do this, due to any reason (poor balance, blatantly ignoring an entire profession, etc) it is not the consumers duty to prop the product up. (If they cannot make a product worth the consumers money, the consumer will find another product to invest in.)

RashanDale.3609

Thats easier said than done.
I havent spend any real money since Halloween last year cause of the bad balance. Cant spend less than nothing

True but if more Necromancers join you, it will slowly reflect in the profits and ideally their almighty metrics.

If not then those players who are not satisfied will eventually give up completely and drift away from the game, potentially encouraging their guilds to go with them.

(Honestly I don’t want the game to fail and have spent a significant amount of real money on Gem store items in the past. That said I personally feel the current and (visible) future state of Necromancer is not worth my money. In the future I hope that it is.)

I’ve said it before but it bares repeating, ANet is a company and GW2 is a product designed to make money.

So vote with your Wallet.

I have tried every profession, but simply love the Necromancer mechanics the best.

(After the Dec 10th Preview (lol), I got my Mesmer to 80 with 45AR and gear for PvE and WvW. Powerful class but not my style.)

So I will continue playing my Necromancer for Free until I am given the impression that my profession is worth their time. (Death Magic comment…)

If every Necromancer was to do the same they would notice. (Hell even if only 20% were to do it, assuming a even spread of Gem buyers across professions, it would be around a 2.4% drop in revenue. (Base on the 1st Year Infographic))

Dietzen

Thanks for this! I actually didn’t realize that bleed is converted to vigor! Let alone a 9 second vigor not depending on the duration bleedstack.

No problem That plus having a wall wurm (or a wurm that can actually hit him if you like to live dangerously) make Lupi a much more Necro friendly fight. (The Wurm-a-Port gets you out of green bubbles fast.)

Still would trade it all for some kind of active defense, mind you!

Just wondering if we can get some clarification for Necromancers lack of Evade/Block/Invulnerablity?

Is this something you’d be willing to change in the future? If not what is the reasoning for limiting Necromancers in this way?

(My suggestion for fixing this problem: Suggestion for Necro Lack of Evade/Block)

JonPeters

NECROMANCER
We are no longer removing a Bleed from Signet of Spite.

Did you even read the thread on the Necro forum for our feedback?

I disagree I’ve spent a more then reasonable amounted of money on the gem store. Arenanet is a business, if I like what they offer, I spend money.

So they just need to sell me on something – give me back some faith that the class I enjoy the most is worth their time and my money. (Because if they don’t I still get to play for free until they do or the game dies.)

All I can say is vote with your wallet. My wife and I play and our investment in the game directly relates to the amount of money we are willing to spend on it.

Being that Necromancer is my main – that investment is pretty low right now.

(Even if Necromancer is the least popular class they are still losing money on easy fixes. Fixes that we have provided in great detail.)

JonPeters

Here is a summary of the changes we have made thus far based on feedback we have read. This is not necessarily the end of adjustments, but where we stand currently. There were a lot of good suggestions, and some of them may not be able to make it due to time constraints on testing and implementation. Please continue to give feedback over the course of the next few days. We will continue to monitor that feedback and take it into account in changes we make for this patch and for the future.

ELEMENTALIST
Arcane Resurrection is going up to master tier instead of Renewing Stamina.
Windborne Dagger is going to function outside of combat.
Soothing Disruption is moving to master tier.
Cantrip Mastery is moving to adept tier.
Soothing Wave redesign: Gain Regeneration(3s) on incmoing critical hits. 10s recharge.

ENGINEER
Power Shoes is going to function outside of combat.

MESMER
Confounding Suggestions – We will merge the old functionality with the new functionality. It will now have 50% change to stun on daze and increase daze duration by 25%.

THIEF
Vigorous Recovery will come down to kitten Vigor instead of 4s.
Bountiful Theft will come down to a 10s Vigor instead of 8s.

WARRIOR
Combustive Shot. To clarify this change, the damage is normalized to about 15% less physical damage than it used to do at all adrenaline levels, but that the damage per pulse is the same regardless of adrenaline level.

Reminder, we will be locking this thread near the end of the week.
Thanks,
Jon

And

JoshDavis

@Rangers/Guardians/Engineers
Just because Jon didn’t include any changes regarding your profession in the above post doesn’t mean we’re done making changes.
Please continue to leave feedback – we’re still listening. We’ll keep you updated as things come up.
Thanks!

Speaks for itself.

rfdarko.4639

I think the reason we haven’t seen a dev response, for the pve points at least, is that the biggest problems necros face currently is defiant and the condition cap. These two things inhibit our class strengths. Unfortunently, changes to these systems will be months and months away, if they happen at all. These thing aren’t an issue in pvp, which is what balance is focused around. It would take some serious pve only changes to bring necros up to decent level, which anet is unwilling to do. Im 99% sure pve necros will be left to rot until they get around to adressing defiant/condi caps.

I agree and disagree. What Necromancers alone needs (and every other class already has) in PvE/WvW and even team fights in sPvP, is some form of active defense. Something that scales with the number of opponents you are facing (Deathshroud does not) like a Block, Evade, or Invulnerable. (Perhaps pared with a projectile reflect for dungeon utility and as per my suggestion thread, it should probably cost Lifeforce to use so that we can’t have both 30k~50k health and high evade. Because of the cost it would always be one or the other but would still allow us to adjust to the situation.)

At this point though, I would settle for the cheap fix of 1~2sec Evade when you enter (or exit if they want it similar to what we had before) Deathshroud on an iCD. (Or if that is too time consuming just revert the “bug” fix that made Deathshroud overflow into health, until they have the time to make an actual fix for us.)

Defiant effects every class that uses CC (Warriors actually did receive a response on defiant, which gives me hope on that system) and the Condition cap effects every class with a condition spec. (Also something “they are work” on, lets just hope its less work to fix then the Death Magic trait line :P.)

As stated, after the Necromancer focused post:

(https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Dec-10th-Balance-Preview/page/22#post3143059)

There has not been a single Dev response related to Necromancer concerns in either the Necromancer specific thread or the main thread. There has however been multiple Dev responses to other professions concerns. Some within minutes of the focused post.

Over 24 hours now since the Dev Post in this thread, and every single other profession has recieved at least one (if not multiple) Dev responses to the issues that they have brought forward.

It is difficult to not feel like Necromancer are being straight out ignored compared to other professions, especially after 14 months of failing to address basic issues with our class.

~Zero Active Defense (Evade/Block/Reflect/Invulnerable) cropped up in the August balance patches.

~Two mostly useless/completely useless Trait Lines that exist because all discussion about them “end(s) up with more work than we have time to build”.

~Attrition. How can we be an attrition class if we cannot survive the damage levied against us, keep the foe in combat with us, or catch up to the enemy as they flee.

~Deathshroud as a Defense. This is our entire defense system and it is balanced for 1v1s in a MMO. (thats massive and multiplayer as the first two M’s) It also completely shuts down all healing when we are in it, effectively rendering one of our own trait lines useless. (Ever watch Deathshroud eat a guardian book full heal in a fractal 40?)

~Extremely limited Team Support. the putrid mark “working as intended” is just another hit.

~General Condition damage issues. Capping, Clipping, and Scaling

At this point I would love to extend any developer who wants the option to run, on a Necromancer, any 30~40 Fractal or decently difficult dungeon with my guild and I. I would love them to experience Necromancer first hand. We primarily use mumble but I can rig up pretty well any VOIP service required. Hopefully you will finally understand what it means to ONLY have “Two dodges”, maybe you will even figure out the gimmicky utility combos we need to set up in order to ensure basic survival.

If not your also still welcome to face our PvPers and see how Deathshroud holds up even 1v1.

As a final note I love necromancer, 1700+ hours played on it, and I have done every drop of content that has been released. It can be done, but many fights are unnecessarily hard compared to other classes. So each month that I see “balance” patches that ignore the fundamental issues with the class, kills my faith of it ever being fixed.

I truly believe that the majority of the commenters in this thread have more issues with what is NOT changing, what is still NOT being fixed, then with what is.

Nemesis

I have an idea… one of your best necromancer players fights vs 2 of my people and see if he doesn’t die instantly.

I’d even being willing to bet their best necromancer against ONE of my sPvPers. Confident they could shut them down easily on several classes. One most likely could do it with his guardian, warrior, and mesmer. (Likely with Thief as well easily enough.)

Nemesis

No aegis, no block, no distortion, no invulnerability, no mist form, no revive, no total condition immunity, no total physical damage immunity… no mobility…All we had was our damage which made us really strong 1v1… really bad at everything else.

Simply quoted because it cannot be reiterated enough.

Even though I will not get a response, I have to ask does any Dev actually play Necromancer? (I mean actually play it ~ Meta Events/PvE/Dungeons/Fractals 30~40/WvW and sPvP ~ not just load a test character into sPvP.)

Because honestly, after the removal of Deathshroud absorbing a hit, the lack of an active defense (mainly PvE/WvW) is brutal. (Once agin spending lifeforce to “block” or reverting the deathshroud absorb change would be an easy fix, as it “cost” us Lifeforce (health) to block.)

The lack of Mobility is also brutal (WvW) and we recieve zero compensation for it. (I know cripples/chills are supposed to be the fix but they don’t work against relatively spammable movement skills. Dark Path and Spectral grasp are very slow and often buggy.)

Jon Peters

Death Magic
On the defensive side, the Blood and Soul Reaping necros are starting to feel pretty good. The Death line on the other hand is too focused on minions. From Reanimator, which we have heard over and over feels bad as a minor trait, to the fact that 1/3 of the remaining traits are minion traits, to finally the fact that both grandmaster traits are minion traits.

Death and Blood magic are only useful for minion masters.

The only decent defensive trait in Death Magic is Reapers Protection (2sec fear on disable with a 90sec CD (being buffed to 60sec) vs Tempest Defense which is a 4sec Aura that stuns for 1 sec each time you get hit 60sec CD (being buff to 25sec), not to mention the heavy synergy Elementalist can get with auras) and Ritual of Protection. (Only useful for invested Well users)

In PvE the “sustain” that blood magic gives (actually was nerfed that last time it was “improved”) is meaningless against one hit KO boss mechanics (That blow right through Death Shroud and put us in down state.

In PvP in also doesn’t matter, without any active defense (vigor to dodge, evades, blocks or invulnerables), escapes, stealths, etc. You are either not getting hit, or CCed to death. (And at best vampiric wells is spending 30 pnts for area denial ~ so that someone can roll in and punt you off the point anyways. Extremely limited stability.)

Best thing is, this is just the stuff they are communicating to us, by May 2014 they might actually tell us what really was changed. Hopefully with more tact then with the Putrid Mark change.

Tyler Chapman

We are changing the tooltip to clear up the confusion for this skill. It is a 3 condition transfer from self to foes when they trigger it. None of the other issues are bugs.
Hope this clears things up. This skill has undergone major balance renovations.

It will no longer cleanse teammates and it will always give a full cooldown when interrupted because its one of the best skills in the game.

Source: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Necromancer-Putrid-Mark/first#post3135004

And worse it doesn’t seem like they care about/understand Necromancer…

We have ZERO true active defense ~ Deathshroud’s Lifeforce pales in comparison to a 2 sec block in many situations. (One hit kills in PvE, Assist Trains, CC Chains, etc, etc, etc.) Which is why burning/terror is pretty well the only viable PvP build ~ 100% in ~ if we fail the condi-bomb we are dead. period.

At this point I’d trade Deathshroud in a heart beat for any other classes active defense!

Myrkr.5803

Source: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Suggestion-for-Necro-Lack-of-Evade-Block/first#post3030165

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Necromancer:
*Vigor 9sec on 50sec CD (40sec Traited) requires two utilities

Elementalist:
*Vigor 5sec on Crit with 5 sec CD
*Vigor 6sec on Cantrip use
*Invuln 4sec on 50sec CD (Focus)
*Projectile Reflect 5sec on 30sec CD (Staff)
*Projectile Destroy 6sec on 30 CD (Focus)
*Block 5sec/3atks on 75sec CD (Arcane Shield)
*Invuln 3sec on 75sec CD (Mist Form)
*Invuln 3sec on 45sec CD (Earth Shield)

Warrior:
*Vigor 10sec on 20sec CD (Warhorn)
*Vigor 8sec when you use a Stance
*Block 3sec on 30sec CD (Shield)
*Evade 3/4sec on 10sec (Greatsword)
*Invuln 4sec on 60sec (Enduring Stance)
*Block 1atk on 15sec CD (Sword OH)

Ranger
*Vigor 10sec on 40sec CD (Lightning Reflexes)
*Vigor 5sec on 15sec CD (when crit)
*Vigor 5sec or 3sec/pulse on Heal
*Vigor 5sec when swap to Moa/Bird/Jellyfish
*Evade 1sec in AA chain
*Evade 3/4sec on 40sec CD (Lightning Reflexes)
*Invuln 6sec on 60sec CD (Protect Me)
*Evade 1/2sec on 8sec CD (Sword)
*Evade 3/4sec on 15sec CD (Sword)
*Evade 1 1/4sec on 10sec CD (Dagger OH)

Guardian:
*Vigor 10sec on 60sec CD (Save Yourself!)
*Vigor 5sec on 5sec CD (on Crit)
*Aegis on 60sec CD (Virtue of Courage)
*Block 2sec on 30sec CD (Shelter)
*Projectile Destroy 6sec on 120sec CD (Sanctuary)
*Projectile Reflect 10sec on 40sec CD (Wall of Reflection)
*Aegis on 60sec CD (Retreat!)
*Invuln 3sec on 90sec CD (Renewed Focus)

Thief:
*Vigor 15sec on 35sec (untraited) CD (Steal)
*Vigor 8sec on Heal
*Evade 3/4sec on 15sec CD (Withdraw)
*Dodge returns some Endurance (Feline Grace)
*Stealth

Engineer:
*Vigor 5sec on 5sec CD when gaining swiftness (Swiftness can be gained on Crit)
*Projectile Reflect 3sec on 30sec CD (Shield)
*Block 2sec on 40sec CD (Shield)
*Block 3sec on 20sec CD (Gear Shield)
*Invuln 3sec on 60sec CD (Elixir S)
*Projectile Reflect on 15sec CD (Air Blast)

Mesmer:
*Evade 1~4sec Evade on 60sec CD (Distortion)
*Vigor 5sec on 5sec CD (on Crit)
*Vigor 5sec/Illusion Shattered
*Projectile Block on 25sec CD (pWarden)
*Block 2sec on 15sec CD (Sword OH)
*Evade 2 1/2sec on 12sec CD (Sword)
*Block 2sec on 12sec CD (Scepter)
*Projectile Reflect 2sec on 15sec CD (Mirror)
*Projectile Reflect 6sec on 40sec CD (Feedback)
*Focus can be traited to Reflect Projectiles
*Stealth

((And I missed several guardian defenses as well as Thief’s withdraw heal))

Instead we were forced to trade Dhuumfire for:

Myrkr.5803

Source: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Necromancer-Putrid-Mark/first#post3135004

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A massive loss of utility on Putrid Mark (Stealth Nerf)

A Bleed Stack on scepter #2 (sPvP only)

Terror increasing to Master tier

Greater Marks increasing to Master tier

Terror Damage reduction

Not to mention in the same patch group Loss of Deathshroud absorbing a single hit

As well as Spectral Armor/Walk Lifeforce generation normalization.

That is an impressive trade off.

Soon the list will include another bleed (off Staff #2) and Signet of Spite (Which is a MASSIVELY telegraphed skill that applies as damaging conditions TWO bleeds and Poison currently ~ So terrifying.)

95% of my playtime is on Necromancer and basically the changes/responses since this game came out can be summed up as somewhere between Insulting and Quit/Reroll.

(“Necromancers haven’t figured out the really powerful builds yet” (read: L2P) (“Necromancers need to learn how to use Deathshroud” (read: L2P)
(And the most recent Putrid Mark “communication” come to mind easily…)

Tyler Chapman

We are changing the tooltip to clear up the confusion for this skill. It is a 3 condition transfer from self to foes when they trigger it. None of the other issues are bugs.
Hope this clears things up. This skill has undergone major balance renovations.

So basically one of our skills under went massive changes over FOUR months ago, and there was not a single patch note to communicate it. After which the Necromancer community spent over four months repeatly reporting bugs with the skill and asked for clarification. And this is our response…

Tyler Chapman

It will no longer cleanse teammates and it will always give a full cooldown when interrupted because its one of the best skills in the game.

Just for clarity sake…

We got Dhuumfire (4sec on 10sec CD, 2Sec on 10sec CD in sPvP, as a Grandmaster Trait (vs Engineers Minor trait that is 4sec in both game modes)) for:

A massive loss of utility on Putrid Mark (Stealth Nerf)

A Bleed Stack on scepter #2 (sPvP only)

Terror increasing to Master tier

Greater Marks increasing to Master tier

Not to mention in the same patch group Loss of Deathshroud absorbing a single hit

(Huge issue in PvE content and a one of many suggestions of how to fix it
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Suggestion-for-Necro-Lack-of-Evade-Block/first#post3030165)

As well as Spectral Armor/Walk Lifeforce generation normalization.

That is an impressive trade off.

Thankfully Moa inconsistently effecting Necromancer minions is on the bug tracker

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Moa-Morph-inconsistently-effects-Minions/first#post2664582

Saddly no indication of a time frame.

Honestly this warrior buff feels like the Necromancer Dhuumfire buff.

*Over-Buff to build the hate

*People in the community cry out for a fix

*Nerf several different things. In the necromancer’s case, things that had not been an issue before the Buff. (Spectral LF gen normalization, Deathshroud Absorb, Terror damage reduction, etc.)

*"Balance" the original buff (Dhuumfire 2 sec vs 4 sec in sPvP, conditions are pretty broken in meaningful PvE and vs Tier 1 auto-cleanse Zergs)

My guess is Healing Signet and possibly “shaving” their KD/KB/Stuns.

Side-note: I main Necro and extremely rarely play warrior (mine is level 13), but I try and keep up on what is happening with all the classes. (From an odd sPvP break/Countering them stand-point.

Informed by guildies I missed a few abilities in the list above

Guardian:
*Vigor 10sec on 60sec CD (Save Yourself!)
*Vigor 5sec on 5sec CD (on Crit)
*Aegis on 60sec CD (Virtue of Courage)
*Block 2sec on 30sec CD (Shelter)
*Projectile Destroy 6sec on 120sec CD (Sanctuary)
*Projectile Reflect 10sec on 40sec CD (Wall of Reflection)
*Aegis on 60sec CD (Retreat!)
*Invuln 3sec on 90sec CD (Renewed Focus)

Block 4sec (3 atk) on 45sec CD (Focus OH)

Thief:
*Vigor 15sec on 35sec (untraited) CD (Steal)
*Vigor 8sec on Heal
*Evade 3/4sec on 15sec CD (Withdraw)
*Dodge returns some Endurance (Feline Grace)
*Stealth

Evade 3/4sec on 60sec CD (Roll for Initiative)

runeblade.7514

I rather have all of the necromancer tools be useful in dungeons than necromancer be buffed and I rather have dev change the dungeon than some stupid band-aid fix like your suggestion.

I’d love the tools we already have to be more useful in PvE as well, but honestly I cannot see them changing an entire mode of play at this point. Especially when they “fixed” fear bypassing defiance (about 6 months after the game came out) and the dodge or die mechanic becoming more common.

Either way my, whether my suggestion is the “Best” one or a “Stupid” one, at least people are discussing that it is an issue. (Particularly in PvE/WvW) So keep the ball rolling and alternative suggestions coming.

runeblade.7514

Also, Necromancer getting vigor for PvE will effect PvP Necromancer no matter if you care about PvP or not.

Never did I ask for Vigor on Necro, I suggested an evade or block at a significant cost to Lifeforce. Also I love and care about sPvP along with every other aspect of this game. (Proudly PvX)

Horst Hortensie

A full block of any attack will make the necro better than every other class.

My suggestion actually addresses that, by not just reverting the Deathshroud absorb, my suggestion would give Necromancer the standard Block/Evade/Invulnerable that other classes already have. And again it gives it at a cost of the Necromancer Lifeforce which is often used as a passive defense (more Health).

Gnat.9405

I think my favorite suggestions are the ones that offer we have some sort of endurance siphon ability

Wouldn’t mind that either, but the main reason I suggested the block/evade/invuln cost Lifeforce is that Necromancer have alot of Health (when you factor in Lifeforce), so having a high amount of endurance to evade really could make us OP.

@Gnat.9405

I also play Necro almost exclusively (I have tried most other classes to get a feel for them and theorycraft counters etc.) and agree the Deathshroud absorb removal without any form of active defense compensation is what caused the problem.

Personally I don’t hate our lack of mobility (I would love more) and love that we are supposed to be an attrition class. If we have to commit to every fight with little hope of escape, I at least want some tools to allow us some survival in team fights. As well as the ability to survive the insta-down pve attacks more often.

Gnat.9405

Does Engi have access to vigor and/or viable and reliable stun breakers?

I missed your post, but yes engineers with infused precision (firearms) and invigorating speed (alchemy) have 100% uptime on vigor (With decent critical chance) and the most blocks in the game.

Also engineers have six potential stun breaks on, 60sec, 50sec, 40sec, 40sec, 45sec, and 45sec cooldowns.

Necros have five potential stun breaks on, 40sec, 60sec, 60sec, 60sec, and 50sec.

(In both cases the cooldowns are untraited values.)

runeblade.7514

In that case, you can use Staff 3 + 4 for area weakness and then use spectral armor.

58-83% damage reduction. Your hp pool should be high enough to survive a focus.

It helps and as said before I play a fair amount of sPvP, but the entire game is not sPvP. Nor would this change make Necro OP in sPvP. (Generating the 50% Lifeforce required to use it and it burning 25% is a huge resource barrier in sPvP.)

Kraag Deadsoul.2789

I think the devs’ secret hope is that we would just forget about this and it could be swept under the rug. Ain’t happenin’ ! Necros are the only profession with no defense against 1-hit-kills. The profession the devs have stated they expect to facetank everything, yet nerf our ability to facetank. LOL!

Exactly, figured it couldn’t hurt to spitball some ideas and let them know we haven’t forgotten.

Kraag Deadsoul.2789

Hitpoints in this game is not a substitute for active defense when one-shotted by bosses and champs.

Again agreed, particularly when the insta-down mechanic is so often used. (or in some cases, like Lupi, getting hit actually actively hurts your group.)

@runeblade.7514

For PvP 1v1 I agree. Assist-train in WvW or tPVP team fights it is not even close to what a 2sec Block can do. (An entire bar of Lifeforce is significantly less in some cases of multi-player burst.)

On top of that in PvE almost all enemies we would want an active defense for have defience and are immune to our CCs. (Or the AoE that one-shots us through deathshroud goes of regardless of the bosses state.)

Lupi – Arah all Paths
CoE – Alpha
Queens Guantlet – Liadri
Fractals – Dredge Boss, Cliffside Boss, etc

(All require a dodge – which can be done with two dodges if you are very careful. Every other class has far far more then two dodges. See the second post I put in this thread.)

Don’t get me wrong I love our CCs and I love Deathshroud but the idea behind this suggestion is not to increase our 1v1 ability, in fact (except for an ele with stability doing a full burst) it would actually be worse to use because it costs lifeforce. The idea is to increase our defense against team burst and insta-down PvE attacks.

Kraag Deadsoul.2789
It was nerfed because they didn’t want necros surviving a fall into an area outside the map. There were better ways to resolve this – many of which were suggested by the necro community itself – than removing our one source of active defense.

It’s just that I’m tired of the necro community having to come up with band-aid solutions to the developers’ short-comings with regards to our profession.

I agree and I think that is the thing that a lot of people miss is Necro /was/ fine for activate defense until they removed the Deathshroud absorb. I just wish they would compensate that change with something.

Honestly I have done every bit of meaningful content (FotM 40, Arah all Paths, CoE, WvW, tPvP solo and team, and Liadri) in this game on my Necro, both before and after the patch, and was able to complete it. Its just more challenging. (If you waste a dodge, you don’t have 9 (exaggeration) other safety blankets.)

Hopefully more threads like this (particularly comparison to other classes active defenses) will make them realize this is an issue.

@Kraag Deadsoul.2789

I don’t disagree with just reverting the deathshroud overflow change either, but I really doubt they will, so instead I was looking for a solution that promoted good lifeforce management. (Versus gain 10% and pop to absorb a hit.)

Either way (my suggestion or reverting Deathshroud absorb) it still puts Necromancers significantly behind other classes in active defense.