Warrior is a heavy armor, high hp, frontline class, to give it top mobility is just cocamamaie balance.
GW2 is a casual game and they prefer to keep the thematically popular classes easy to play.
When I think of how attrition works in other games and even in this game, the classes that are apparently unintentionally great at it, attrition comes not through having the biggest damage sponge (like they have tried to give it to Necros through), but in frequently having periods where you escape damage altogether.
Usually in GW2 this is from mobility, stuff like stealth, blink or ride the lightning. You are still hitting the enemy, or at least healing more, while they aren’t hitting you.
It can also be achieved not by you getting faster, but by the enemy getting slower. This would be CC and kiting attrition, unfortunately, doesn’t really work in this game because condition clearing is easily accessible, that no cripple or chill can be relied upon to stay on enemies to keep them off you. You can overload condition cleansing, but the ultimate benefit of that is usually just our damaging conditions bursting them down (which is not attrition) instead of covering for our CC.
Fear is workable CC, but it again is so short that it fits a burst offense ‘kill or be killed’ style and not drawn out attrition survival.
In summary they have no idea what they are doing when it comes to attrition and this class and vs the style of combat currently in the game.
(edited by Pendragon.8735)
I think we can confidently say that it will probably never be fixed. Give up on life stealing fellow necromancers.
Giving up on life stealing is close to giving up on the class as they intended. As with a hardline about no mobility, little stability or vigor, proper life steal is one of the few thematic solutions that work to bring about attrition.
I don’t get why they are so stumped about solving scaling and and specific outlier scenarios, simply put some lifesteal mechanics on ICDs and you ignore this problem and balance it much more easily.
When you hit other people it should be based on one off healing and cooldowns, but when others hit you that is when it should scale, to give you equivalent mitigation against focus fire that other classes get via boons and innate damage avoiding abilities.
Making the defensive spectral skills have cooldowns to generating LF was the exact opposite to how it should work. And opposite how our stealing of health should work on something like the signet of vampirism.
When 5 people are hitting you at the same time, having the first hit each second give back 350 odd health is useless and insignificant. At worst the active should unlock the ICD and not be something that requires you to hit the enemy to get health back. As when being focused you often aren’t getting any attacks off.
(edited by Pendragon.8735)
It’s not bad, sort of a half measure to ultimate mitigation like invulnerable, blocks and aegis.
Other classes get more out of dodge because of better mobility and stability. Without those things you are still liable to be ping ponged or locked out of your dodge by stuns.
But certainly be better than what we have now, which is nothing.
I’d be for any blob reduction, though the radius should be smaller than a trap probably. With the debuff one that lingers per person, not area based.
What they really need to do is make forces simultaneously cap multiple points in the bigger structures to force splitting up and more comprehensible combat. Small scale skirmishing indeed allows for much better individual player skill, and choice (not one guy telling 30 what to do) as well as much more variety in fights.
One of the funnier things I saw recently was a garrison siege where the attacking force/guild could not understand any other way to fight than staying in their little buff stack, but the defenders were spread out on all levels of the garrison maybe 30 people, and the oblivious stack was hopeless to chase down all these spread about people, using their 30 to try and kill one a time, and they just could never do it before the waypoint would be reinforced over and over.
The optimal way to win a fight like that was to break off into several smaller groups that could kill out multiple areas much faster. But of course since the meta is all about stack and train, that thought never occurred to them. Nor would anyone have experience in fighting that different kind of battle. Eventually the stack just lost the fight to attrition.
But unfortunately, few objectives are setup where a spread strategy works for defense. And blob smashing into blob usually is enough to win the day.
Can blame lack of collision detection for most of this as to why a GW2 WvW castle storming resembles nothing like it would in reality.
(edited by Pendragon.8735)
Didn’t get a chance to play reset night, but see Mags is roaring out the gate, dominating the PPT even. Can’t be mad, maybe even a little proud of them for taking and holding too.
A lot of traits for the necromancer just seemed rushed in at the last minute, and there are a lot that never see any use.
Because they made too many last second changes, due to that a few people found OP builds with the Necro in beta. But instead of tweaking what was there, Anet panicked and nerfed Necro into the ground, and its never made sense as a comprehensive class sine.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_historical_traits#Necromancer_traits
Stuff like this is what the class is missing, and ironically, was once meant to have:
Shade - Soul Reaping - Minor - Prevent knocked back, knocked down, launched, slowed or stunned while in Death Shroud.
Dark Path in DS used to be a teleport. Now the class has no mobility, can’t escape, and can’t catch people. Go figure.
Spoken like someone that has absolutely no clue how open field fighting works. Oddly enough 15v15 leads to some of the most unique and balanced fights in the game.
If open field was fair and balanced, it would have equal representation across all classes, and I don’t believe it ever has. Instead you get majority the same 2 to 4 classes at best depending on a meta shift.
At lower numbers its certainly even worse. Small group and roaming. There is a reason why Mag small groups are about 75% nothing but Mez and Thieves. Real diversity there. Build wars is a poor way to balance. So yeah, any interesting big group combat seems by pure luck and not by design from them.
I don’t know what YB’s ultimate goal is in this game. If they want to be a solid Tier 3 server then their playing style works. If they want to play against servers that can actually defend and respond to their structures, i.e. most T2 servers or higher, then they’re going to have to learn how to do something in the open field beyond roll over and die since everything they try to take will actually have resistance.
As for what YB desires, can’t speak for that, but I’d guess just to have challenging competitive matches. I think we have about 2 guilds that frequently even can put out 15 or 20 people. So winning and losing is about server wide effort, teamwork and preparation. YB population layout is not conductive to multiple 20-25 man organized combat groups, and nor do you need that to succeed in WvW.
This mode is about getting 80 people to work together, if not maybe several hundred, not just 20, and not just one guild. People should lobby for their own game mode if they just want GvG style fights. But that’s not this.
(edited by Pendragon.8735)
Block of text
Open field fights are fun. PPT is boring.
This is not a complicated concept…
Meh. It’s all fun in doses. The game would actually be terribly boring if there were no keeps, towers, camps, or supply to increase versatility or make you think about where you are going, and it was all just one big deathmatch, which is a simple repetitive mode out of the 90s game scene. People can do that in sPVP and that mode is dying…
The interest in WvW for most is the week long nature of the war, not just running from spawn aimlessly into people over and over. YB would have never beat SBI in silver playing like that. And having beat them like we did was a lot more rewarding, more so by the reaction on these forums, than just getting some more bags. Because they always give bags, but they don’t always lose when they thought they were going to win.
Moreover, Anet gives not one whit for class or meta balance in WvW, from the 1v1 level up to GvG. Heck, they can’t even balance sPVP. So its not exactly some great skill playing field. FPS is where you find that.
Seems to me if one wants to “just play for fights”, they would want to play opposite Maguuma, which loves to do that, instead of just all go there and then wonder why they can’t find anyone that to play against in the same narrow style.
But nobody is going to convince anyone else though how to best enjoy the game. YB and Mag are like oil and water.
Don’t really see how they could solve that however.
By creating mechanisms to make nearly all servers as even as possible, so the pool of even peer servers that can make a competitive fight is much larger.
There is nearly no diversity
Master of conditions was never a great hat to hang a class on. There is too much cleansing in the game making those conditions totally unreliable and random as to which ones can actually stick or make a difference in a fight. And they’ve only added more and more cleansing, and now outright immunity, to condis as its went along.
Compare condis to boons say, that are much harder to remove, and are dependable when granted by teammates, its just night and day.
The only actual way for condis to pack a threat is by sheer overwhelming number of them, the very thing that Anet’s balancing is suggesting they don’t want.
It seems to me they are very lost about what this class is supposed to contribute.
Barbed Precision benefits pretty weakly from more crit because of how short the bleeds are. Even with say 70% condi duration, its giving maybe 250-275 extra damage every 10 attacks for each 10% of crit added.
Even for procing something like Dhuumfire, if you chart the average attack its likely to proc on, 25% vs 50%, you’re only talking a few attacks, a few seconds difference into the fight. Later might even be better with how some like to cleanse as soon as 2 or 3 condis are on them.
If they do, I wish they’d do something about our 24/7 siege trolls the last 3 weeks.
But no they don’t. Since release I’ve seen 2 Anet players ever on YB, and both were in PVE Living World events the first day they were released.
Is this match over already. Seems like it since we’ve reached the vapid comments period, where the same dead horses get beat over and over.
Diamond Skin should be a buff that lasts 5 seconds upon the first condition hitting a Ele over 90% health.
That’s still going to save them thousands of health if hit with a burst condi opener, like terror or burning. Potentially much more if hit with a team or zerg focused attack.
Then a fairly long cooldown, 30 to 60 seconds.
Ele had plenty of damage avoidance even before this with RTL, mist form, armor of earth, etc.
(edited by Pendragon.8735)
Full immunities are never good, but if we have to have them, they make far more sense activating right before you might die, than at the start of a fight, full passive.
But I think this trait could be balanced rather easily by simply putting a time limit on the immunity, starting from when the first condition hits them. 5 Seconds would probably be fine, offering some counter play from the opponent. Or of course he can burst through the threshold depending on build.
Historically Yak’s bend would roll over and give up when pushed on during the week, but it looks like SBI has taken over that title
AKA, going back to work. YB just had a lot of weekend warriors pulling long hours in previous periods. The around the clock population is a bit better balanced now.
Can’t speak for SBI, but their morale seems shaky.
Prior to the patch you could drag the minimap beyond your current location and it would stay in place over seeing the new area, at least for a while. Useful for scouting action in other areas, or waypointing from the minimap. However since the patch every time I drag outside the area my character is in, it immediately zooms back to my location. None of the buttons along the right side seem to fix this, very annoying.
You will never notice the passive siphons. I don’t think anything in this game will ever hit you for that low except maybe a standard mesmer clone with no traits.
Sadly, this will probably be the case across all game modes. When a player is going to die, its never because he took too many small periodic damage hits, it will always be because he took a boatload of burst in a small time period, and that’s where you need a real heal. At the times this passive is doing something, you don’t really need it, and when you do need a big heal for a ‘oh crap’ moment, this offers nothing.
Using our heal slot is not the place where they should be trying to shore up, let alone fix, our broken life steal mechanic.
Meanwhile let’s give the warrior another invulnerable for their heal! I don’t get how the devs can be so oblivious at times.
Pretty hilarious the warrior got exactly the type of heal we need, when they already have a ton of similar things, and we end up with more weak mitigation, and that is sapped with a ICD to make it utterly useless against burst, which is the biggest flaw and weakness in the class.
- Burning does not fit with profession aesthetic
Meh, balance is more important than theme by a million fold.
Burst damage is the only thing that brought Necro to relevance, and once its gone, with no clear idea of return, or Anet refusing to give the kind of return necessary, the class is likely to sink right back to the bottom of desirability, where it was for months.
This is a fast paced combat game, while the design for Necro is based on a slow paced combat approach that simply never worked.
Cooldowns in this game are too short for attrition based offense to work. If conditions deal damage slowly you cannot overpower competent cleansing builds and you never break through over that wall of sustain that other classes have to kill in fast enough time before you yourself are killed.
The only sustain that works in GW2 is defensive sustain, which is based on healing, regeneration and excessive boon reapplication, especially Vigor and Stability, to reduce or avoid incoming burst, and which Anet refuses to give this class.
Nerf our burst, and we will be right back to a broken incongruent class design. Unless Anet changes their hardlines about what we can have on defense.
It is indeed very odd that our prime defensive mechanic is one that also exacerbates the already big issues of our normal form, which is little ability to deal with CC.
Either we should get to use our utilities in DS, or, we should be able to freely enter and exit without a cooldown, which would then allow us to play the mechanic much more reactively.
Right now Death Shroud just reinforces everything wrong with Necromancer attrition, which is that its all based on being a giant sponge.
The other ill-fitting weakness of DS is no ability to deal with conditions, which is supposed to be our entire class strength! Outside of one trait that removes a single condition on entry, DS puts you at the mercy of conditions.
Now the underwater version is actually symbiotic, with the Life Blast there transferring a condition on hit, this is great, and should be the mechanic that the land form has. If even they put one on ICD for the land form, it would make it compatible with self corruption, and not make us jump out and forfeit our defensive posture for 10 seconds in order to get rid of an immobilize, stun, whatever.
(edited by Pendragon.8735)
Silver might have been better with Mag instead of FA.
On the other side…..the moment SBI saw Yak Bend in the matchup there were no cheers – just the sound of blades getting sharpened. Beware Yaks – we are coming like the ironborn.. fear the Kraken.
SBI wants our Yak Finishers! We are Yaks it was only fitting for us to get it.
Maybe Necro’s will stop asking to have themselves nerfed while not offering what the compensation is, or asking for things in return that they refuse to give us based on dogmatic and dated design intentions.
Therefore, don’t worry if you don’t get a kill. Warding them off is typically a victory.
It’s a victory in sPVP, but a loss in WvW, where terrain is king. That is the hard part for Anet to balance in this game, outcomes mean such different things in different parts of the game.
If you run off a mobile class in WvW, they still to get to accomplish their objective often, come back and attack your dolyak / camp / tag your tower. Or simply re-engage and attack you over and over once they heal up and until they get lucky. Of course the people than run and never come back, you don’t get a spike, token, or points.
Necro needs far more lockdown capacity if we aren’t going to get mobility or stability ourselves, which is something they claimed we are supposed to have in the philosophy for our class, but they have just failed utterly to deliver. It gets old seeing Thieves, Mesmers, and moronic spinning warriors, racing away from lost fights over and over.
(edited by Pendragon.8735)
No holds barred so far, no one staying on their side of the map, lol.
You’re in Acid aren’t you…
Not even close. I already told you I don’t condone cheating on either side. The point I’m taking issue with is that you think YB benefited from the whole embarrassing deal.
I could of swore my argument was that we shouldn’t support cheating period,
Let’s just agree there. Cheating is wrong.
My original comment about this was only saying the cheater motivated our server to play harder nothing related to people that may have done it back. It sucks if they did, but I don’t know why you would be shocked about it, and I’m sure it was in no way a ‘benefit’ in net total like you were suggesting.
You have no way of knowing who started it. There is no way to know. I don’t know. And that is the problem with your logic. For all we know, YB could have had a spy. And so someone “evened the score.”
That’s bullcrap.
This was something impossible to ignore. A guy sitting in a keep for hours eating every supply that came in, running dozens of stacked golems to their deaths, and going around starting useless upgrade at any stocked holding.
If this was being done first on SBI it would have been posted about here, screen shootd or someone would have contacted YB players about it.
I really am stunned that SBI is trying to act like a victim over this.
pend, if you don’t mind me asking, what guild you in?
[/quote]
Feel free to PM me in game.
So, cheating is fine as long as it benefits you… That’s what your argument keeps coming back to….someone cheated
Amazing but you just described your own position! You expected your side to cheat, get an advantage, and have nothing done about it. Bravo sir!
I would not like someone on YB to start cheating. But if they did, I would understand perfectly fine if a SBI player came back and cheated the same way back to make it even.
Especially if our server did not make an effort in any way to punish the player or offer in-game compensation, by not attacking a keep for however long, or letting the other team have a free camp for however long.
What we’ve established. I’m for fairness. You, unfairness.
I don’t see how. Except for me saying retaliatory cheating is not okay. And it isn’t.
Orbs can be returned, wasted upgrades cannot. And even if SBI were to give recompense for a griefers actions, less than an hour or so after I read the accusations of SBI griefing, we had YB griefers, multiple on every map, griefing.
So after that, you lost all consideration for any compensation, seeing as you didn’t wait for any honorable action, but stooped to a low road, and continue to defend YOUR griefers.
Right and fair is not the same thing.
If we lose 2000 supply and then you lose 2000 supply both through cheating, neither is right, but purely math wise, match score wise, it is fair, and neither gets an advantage.
Otherwise your position is no different than saying you are fine to win by cheating and expect no consequences if you have an unfair advantage. How in the world is that position sportsmanlike?
So you’re not in favor of punishing a cheater if it benefits your server?
Benefit no. Make even? Not the same thing.
Again, when Yaks Bend’s players cheated in the past, our server gave voluntarily compensation.
Your position is equivalent to saying you would be perfectly fine to win by cheating.
And that if your opponent unfairly loses 2000 supply and 10 golems you do not think its fair to lose the same thing. You would prefer playing with the advantage. Excellent sportsmanship.
Probably why it started in the first place, SBI expected to get away with it.
(edited by Pendragon.8735)
Its strange, My first reaction when I saw a yak bends player cheating and wasting our keeps supply was not to buy a second account and cheat… ……Guess that comes back that whole pride thing..
You didn’t need to, already had trolls doing it for you.
Again, this never happened to any near degree in any match involving YB prior to this. Not since orbs have we dealt with such immaturity. I’m sure it won’t be a problem next week either. And maybe you can rationale things in your next thread too and we’ll meanwhile have a cheating free match, thankfully
Saw this post from Devon Carver :
But I would think we can find some sort of system that encourages servers to work together to defeat a bigger server.
Well, kitten. smh.
We already have a system for that. One server acts like big mouths on the forum. Kind of hard to create on demand though.
I rely on Anet to monitor their game. If I had the opportunity, I would have banned the people griefing in an instant. No ifs ands or buts. But it isn’t up to me.
I am not defending them at all. I was simply using YOUR logic to explain how it is wrong to take matters into your own hands. The original griefer could have seen YB doing something less than savory, like spotting a spy. Based on YOUR logic, evening the score is justified, and so he was justified in wasting your supplies.
I do not agree with that logic, but apparently you do, because evening the score is something you condone.
What you said = I would like to win based on cheating.
Again, YB did not come out ahead in this exchange.
So cheating is fine as long as it benefits you
Just like I said before.
Except no, wrong again, it didn’t benefit us. Nor did it hurt you. It was net even when done on both sides.
Like the example I gave in the past, when YB people cheated and stole orbs, our server left open our keep for the other team to take it back. Even though the cheaters had no affiliation or direction with anyone known!
We were thanked and applauded by our enemies. Unfortunately, I saw no SBI leaders step up and take responsibility for their cheater in this way, to make the match even again.
Everything else aside, defending cheaters is a low for anyone.
Even lower, defending cheating on your behalf, and thinking it should sit without consequence.
There’s a reason people call you Hax bend.
In a past matchup, we had a [FoW] warrior commander constantly getting into our spawn and killing golems in our spawn. You didn’t see us sending people to your server to do the same. It sucked, we moved on, and dealt with it. But good ol’ Yaks Bend, decides to justify sending someone right back at you to “even the score”.
Logic, for everyone. Wrong + Wrong = Right.
Nobody ‘sent’ anyone.
I think we should all be able to agree cheating is bad.
And that no one should want unfair advantage because someone is cheating in their favor with no consequence.
But thanks for bringing your T1 win at all costs methods into our matches.
Ummm….You realize that every night our supply was drained by trolls from Yaks, and our golems were destroyed right?
I’m talking net result. After you subtract all our golems and supply wasted as well. I doubt we came out ahead. Esp as it wasn’t each night, but all day too against us.
The only one I guess who ended up ahead, is EB, who didn’t cheat. Probably a lesson in there. So again one guy tried to cheat to help his team, ended up hurting it. Should be mad at him it seems.
No, it happens to the server who’s winning a lot…
We happen to win a lot, so It happens to us a lot..
Ah, the good old SBI bravado.
Except you weren’t winning this week, and mysteriously someone did it anyway, and did it first. Probably precisely because you weren’t winning.
So in otherwords, You’re all talk… despite talking crap about cheating, you condone it if it benefits you in any way…
No, it didn’t benefit us. At best it might have canceled the damage. And I seriously doubt whoever went over there was as dedicated as the guy that sat in our keeps 24/7 with multiple name changes and characters.
And also no to being for something that benefits us in anyway, as if that was the case YB people would have been cheating from the outset, regardless of it being done to them first. But they didn’t so clearly they were only driven to do it out of last recourse.
Wait a second. Are you trying to say that the saboteur on SBI was some sort of conscious retaliation from Yak’s Bend?
I’m speculating, but why else would they do it? Especially, as I didn’t see any complaints about it prior to the SBI spy starting.
Again, in the silver league tier of teams this just isn’t some common thing.
It happens in every match, you think this is the first time someone has done this in one of our matches?
Maybe its a common SBI tactic, and that is why it happens to you a lot? Have no idea, but we have never had it be such a major issue to us before this week, and certainly nor from us against someone else.
Must be a T1 thing, and continuing on from servers that have been ejected from T1.
So in otherwords, You’re not going to police your own, despite you just calling for us to police someone who we had no idea who they were. THough from what I understand it was someone from “bags” that I hear was even trolling SBI as well.
So yea..
You still don’t get it. None of it would have happened if the SBI guy did not start.
Considering neither Anet nor SBI was able to stop it, you think its fair for one server to endlessly have their upgrades ruined and supply wasted, potentially costing a vast amount of PPT, if it is not countered in some way? That would only encourage this to happen more and more. Sadly its the only counter atm – unless SBI volunteered to give us free camps or something, which you did not. And again, unfortunate, but the lesson is clearly don’t start cheating, no good end comes of it.
How exactly do you “police your own” in this game? Reporting does kitten all as far as I’ve seen.
If the person is in a notable guild, and values that membership shouldn’t be hard to get them to stop. In the case its a total lone gun, then you really can’t, but that seems far fetched that some total loner is going to care enough to spend hours on another server doing sabotage, esp if he can’t brag and broadcast his efforts back to someone.
As much as SBI is bellyaching about the totally logical odds against them this week, I don’t think winning this week was impossible.
But it would have involved very specific and targeted attacks out of gate, to break either YB or EB, and force them back into eating off each other.
Morale is the most underrated aspect in WvW, and often because the populations are simply too big to manipulate it. But any match that you can win morale wise by the middle of the week, gives huge advantages to the remaining days, once you get the fair weathers to go back to PVE.
Even worst case scenario, SBI couldn’t hold 1st, 2nd should have remained easy to retain if they could have kept up morale better on their fair-weathers.
Even giving up their own BL, where they faced big odds, to say sit on EB with all their people likely would have worked better. Then if YB came to fight them there, it would still be eating EBs points.
(edited by Pendragon.8735)