Guild Wars 2

Maugetarr.6823:

@ Shimekiri let me explain why unload is bad in another way that may make it more apparent why I think unload is bad.

Per shot, vital shot has a 0.5 multipler now (with minor bleed). Shot to Shot this results in a 0.61 multiplier per second damage output.

Per shot, Unload is a 0.38ish multiplier now. Accounting for 5 initiative recharge over 5 seconds, it has a 0.60 multiplier per second.

Unload is literally adding nothing to the set except firing a weaker autoattack faster. The only thing it’s adding is a cool animation. By moving some of the damage to auto, and then changing the functionality of unload, you’d have a stronger, more competitive set. Don’t get me wrong, the new #3 could have some burst in it like I’ve explained, but right now Unload does nothing except for substitute for a poor autoattack while sinking initiative into it that should be used somewhere else.

If you like unload and the current playstyle of pistols, I would say the better thing to ask for is a change to the animation of vital shot when 2 pistols are being used.

The thing is, I understand fully what you’re after, but what we’re after are two completely different things. Two different playstyles. What you want, is for P/P to turn into an AA based dps/utility set, with 3 utility skills + 1 gap opener that would be used more often than currently. What I’m after, is a dps that actually engages me into controlling said DPS level, by controlling the level of the burst and the speed of the burst that Unload provides in its current state. I have never, ever liked any DPS in any game, that gives me just pure utility and an autoattack. Its a personal preference, but I want solid control over my DPS, on how quickly or slowly I’m dishing it out. Its a different form of utility in the PvP scene. With that in mind, I’ve been suggesting things that would leave this playstyle intact, while still trying make changes that would benefit everyone playing the set aswell. You’re just on the opposite side of the fence, where you’re used to(Or its your preferred playstyle.) AA being the primary/only source of reliable damage and then the rest being utility. Its not about any animation, its about interaction with the weaponset and how to utilize it. I dislike what you’re after and you dislike what I’m after, which has become quite obvious. :P In that sense, there’s no point in us arguing as we’re both just after different things to make the set playable in the playstyles we prefer it. Have to say though, it’s been a nice change to have an “argument” without the usual “screaming, shouting, ranting and name calling”.

Also, just for arguments sake, Unload doesn’t sink in initiative that could be used elsewhere. Any player worth his/her weight will use the other skills, primarily Head Shot and Black Powder in this case, when its called for and drop the dps as a priority. Its a choice that’s forced onto the player and I personally like that fact that you’re forced to make choices, instead of having the ability to have both worlds unhindered. What I don’t like is that currently the tradeoff is still a little bit too large, which could be solved by increasing the cast speed of Vital Shot to 1/3s, removing the pre-cast animation for Vital Shot or by taking the pre-cast animation into account when designing the cast speed and actual firing animation speed. To prevent things from looking silly, hands could alternative between firing the weapon, so the animations wouldn’t look too rushed, or alternatively, change to animation to have the firing hand stay up and in firing position, only doing the recoil twitch between firing rounds.

Maugetarr.6823:

The roll could be as short as 300 which is a standard dodge roll. The set is not working outside of PvE for what seems to be the vast majority of thief players. I don’t know the exact usage rates, but it’s low enough that pistols have been chosen to be addressed. Including the damage boost that was added, the 4 shots would be a 1.5 multiplier overall, putting it at midrange heartseeker. The initiative could be lowered to 4 as well at that point. Adding a mobility skill to pistol #2 is just trying to copy SB. If thieves need more evasion/mobility outside of SB, that should be addressed with utilities. RFI would be a good example. The initiative gain and cooldown could be cut in half allowing you to use it more often.
My overall point is that P/P is not working. Limiting what they’re allowed to mechanically change to only number 2 is not going to fix it or else these number changes would have come close to fixing it. I’m not saying take away the burst. The damage from the reworked unload would still be relatively high and at the same rate. P/P needs to be a strong in-combat weapon set with staying power, not more ability to run.

Tldr: Unload needs to change to fix the set.

Tell me, with solid reasoning, why could said utility you’re after, which is mobility in one form, not be inserted into Body Shot slot instead of destroying the the playstyle of others for your own enjoyment? If the skill being revamped into such a gap opener, dodging backwards in your suggestion, would be Body Shot, it wouldn’t bother the other set of users either and more than likely both sides would get what they’re after.

You also seem to ignore the obvious fact that the burst would be ruined, completely, with your change. You can’t use an ability for burst dps, if you’re not within melee range when starting said burst, if a backwards dodge was added into it, with your theoretical distance value of 300. Also you need to note that in PvE, you’re almost never that close to a boss, which would mean the burst would simply cease to exist or it would be a massively nerfed version. The only way to make your suggestion work with Unload, without hindering the burst dps capability, would be to make the travelled distance so miniscule that it’d end up being useless in PvP as a gap opener anyway.

Quick edit: You’re also wrong with the fact that the changes that were just implemented should’ve fixed the spec, if the issue wasn’t Unload. The issue here is the fact that Vital Shot is too weak. Increase its cast speed to 1/3s from the current 1/2s and we’d be closer to “fixed” when speaking about our dps overall. What would then be left, is to give us the gap opener a lot of us want, which is what I’ve been meaning with changing Body Shot into a mobility skill of some sort and AoE capability via a pierce effect, since bounce seems to be off the table.

The more you use it, the less it hits. The combined number simply shows the damage chain of all your attacks in a quick enough succession. Basically, if you spam all your initiative, you’re doing less damage because you lost the damage bonus from Lead Attacks. What you should do is use 1-2 unloads and then pool back energy. 1 Unload if you don’t have steal ready to cover the extra energy lost, 2 if it is ready. The main goal, in PvE content of the game, is to try and hover around 8-10 unused initiative and as long as you don’t “cap out” on initiative, you’re not “losing” damage by doing this. P/P by itself is not on par with the other ranged counterparts of other classes, but it’s in a better state now, damage-wise, than it was. It still lacks range, AoE capability and Vital Shot has too long of a cast time, common consensus seems to be that around 1/3s cast would be ideal for it. Other than that, Redesign of Body Shot as a survivability skill has been on the table quite a lot, but there are people here aswell who’d like to turn the set into Vital Shot-afk-fest and ruin the niché of the P/P set, which happens to be on-demand burst dps.

Shalien.9018:

Obviously, range increase to 1200 & adding in ricochet as a trait would go a long way.

Vital Shot
This should be where the damage should be. IMO P/P has a great starting point for a condi Thief build. The way initiative works vs. traditional cooldowns, our autoattack should always be the highest DPS ability on a weapon. Up the bleed stacks to 5 seconds and apply a second bleed per shot.

Body Shot
Body Shot is where Pistol needs the most help. Many people think it should be changed to a sustain skill. Something that maybe grants 1-2 seconds of evasion.

Thematically it can be changed to something like Point Blank where we teleport to the target in the style of Rev’s sword 3, shoot them point blank and then teleport back to where we started. Having evasion during the entire animation. In addition to the added evasion, it would still apply the Vuln and Imob that’s on the set today.

On the teleport we’d have Shadow Step particle effects, I just want to avoid no valid path to target issues.

Unload
For Unload’s improvement I think the guns should overheat on the last few shots.

• Shot 1-5 would work the same as they do today.
• Shot 6 would Blind neaby enemies
• Shot 7 and 8 would cause Burning and Blind nearby enemies

This way the animation stays the same, you just add some smoke & ember particle effects to the last few shots. The 3 quick applications of Burning would add some utility/sustain and the Burning would fit the Pistols mainhand theme of being a condi weapon.

The base damage can be reduced to account for the two stacks of burning.

Sneak Attack
I saved Sneak Attack for after Unload so you understand the overheating concept.

Sneak Attack’s good but shot 4 and 5 should also cause Blind to nearby enemies.

Pistol off-hand is great as is.

The main problem with this is the fact you’re trying to build a condi thief build, out of P/P which is illsuited for condi, on top of thief being the worst condi in the game anyway. Unless EVERYTHING thief has and utilizes now in all weapon sets and utilities get fully redesigned, it’s really unfeasible to start converting a clear power weapon set to support condi, which is already less than lackluster. A cleansable burst every ~35-40s is bad. Very bad. The only reason people even play this is the fact that there are many “kitten s” running around who just fail to get rid of the conditions stacked on them. If a person survives the condi burst from P/P, by cleansing the stacks off, that P/P thief is “dead in the water” and after a couple more seconds, dead in the literal sense of things.

Babazhook already covered almost everything what I believe needs to be done with P/P, other than AoE capability via pierce f.ex. What to me seems to be the common theme is that the majority of people here complaining about power P/P thieves being bad, having nothing else than headless Unload spam etc. don’t actually know how it should be played.

P/P currently works as a BURST dps build. It relies on you realizing that and then capitalizing on it. There are many ways to utilize it including 1v1 situations as well as team fights. 1v1, bait the opponent into wasting his/her dodges, or just Scorpion Wire and then Haste+murder with Unload, in team fights, just pay attention to what’s happening and when you see someone “wasting” their dodges/counters, same kitten as 1v1, Haste+murder by hail of bullets. This is the short version of how it should be done and ofcourse there are other variables in both 1v1 and team fights that need to be taken into consideration, but the baseline deal is that you do NOT waste your initiative straight off the bat and hope something dies. That only works when fighting trash mobs in PvE. Both PvE boss fights and PvP are all about initiative management and managing your burst. In PvE, the focus is more on sustaining a balanced ratio of Lead Attacks via initiative and then Unloading the excess initiative, while in PvP, its about knowing when to utilize Haste+Unload burst, to get the target down VERY quickly. Unload works perfectly fine for what its meant to do. If you don’t utilize it this way, then sadly you are just playing it wrong and there’s no way to spin that around.

The problems with the set lie entirely elsewhere than Unload and its function, like I’ve been screaming all over the thief forums for the past few days.

Maugetarr.6823:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Maugetarr.6823:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Maugetarr.6823:

Some Suggestions:

*Auto could have its damage increased to a 0.75 multiplier since it’s single target damage at only 900 range.

*Pistol 2 could have a boon strip with the vuln that would put the utility on par with SB.

*Unload could have its shots cut in half if they’d give it a backwards roll (and buff auto). The whole skill could fire 4 shots over 0.75 seconds while giving a 0.5 second evade frame similar to shortbow.

*Finally, put a piercing trait in for pistols. They need some way to compete with the multitarget capabilities of shortbow which far outclasses pistols in a teamfight

Thanks for the update Karl!

no pistol will ever compete with shortbow, unless they somehow give pistols a long range, ground targeted movement skill (like, say, staff #5, if they buff it), infinite blast finishers, and a pulsing poison field to slow down rezzes.

Maybe not, but I don’t think making pistol SB-lite is the answer. I would rather have it have strong in combat fighting ability, meaning evasions and the ability to hinder the enemy. A boon hate design along with some evasive skills could make S/D+P/P something that might be able to stick to a point by killing boon bunkers. Maybe that number 2 skill needs poison in it too. A strong auto would be vital for maintaining pressure while saving your initiative for reacting to the opponent. SB is our utility ranged option, now P/P and P/D need to be our power and condi DPS ranged options.

to be clear, i don’t think pistol should be SB-lite. i was just saying that’s what it would take for someone to drop SB in favor of a pistol.

P/P, in my opinion, needs a new #3. something that gives it either mobility, stealth (directly or indirectly), or evasion, as those are the only things that can keep a thief alive, and incidentally the things that every thief set except P/P has. get pistol a better #2 too while at it. (poison isn’t a bad idea, though that sounds more like dagger’s territory. maybe a bouncy shot a la mesmer pistol that applies different condis based on target order).

Evasion on #3 is what I’m a strong advocate for. It just needs to have the shot number decreased to 4 instead of 8 so when you use it to evade it punishes people. Individual shot damage should stay the same so it would be a 1.2 multiplier (not taking account of the damage buffs today). Strong sustained damage should be moved to the auto since it’s a 900 range set with no mobility.

I’ll just put own cents here in this topic aswell:
First off, S/P doesn’t have access to stealth either and functions exactly the same as P/P does, but in melee instead and instead of having freedom of movement with the burst ability, Pistol Whip, it locks you into place and gives you short evade frames. (On top of working as an AoE, which Unload doesn’t do.)

The draw to both S/P and P/P is the fact that they have the burst dps capability. Its a playstyle choice. A choice many of us playing P/P and S/P love. That is also the reason why a very large portion of do not want any kind of change, at all, to Unload. It functions as intended and it functions well. What needs to be done is boost the damage of Vital Shot, so it’s closer to Unload in terms of damage, not on par, but closer, so when we need to choose between utility and damage, we would know we aren’t gimping ourselves heavily. This would give us the UTILITY of BURST DPS. A high spike damage that is on-demand, which doesn’t exist for our weapon sets outside of S/P, which can unfortunately be too easily avoided due to the fact that it locks you into place. The burst of P/P can only be avoided by dodging or by getting out of line of sight and both counters are easy to avoid when you’re not sleeping.

I’ll also lay in the concerns that adding a “disengage” type mobility into the primary burst ability of P/P, will render that ability completely useless in the majority of the PvE content in the game due to various problems such as throwing you out of range of the target or throwing you into insta-kill-AoE etc. It simply should not be done. Ever. For any reason.

My suggestions are these:
Change Body Shot into the mobility skill of P/X sets, that would leave P/P’s primary draw, Unload and burst DPS capability + interaction with the DPS instead of the snooze-inducing afk-while-autoattacks-do-the-job playstyle that many of our other weapon sets suffer from. That is also a playstyle choice, but not something all of us like and that’s why P/P and S/P have been our go-to choices.

Leave Unload as is, no further changes.

Shorten the cast time of Vital Shot to 1/3s, 1/4s would be even better, but would probably go to the side of overpowered.

Give P/P some form of AoE, such as piercing. All other weapon sets except P/X have AoE capability. Adding a pierce effect to all pistol attacks would in this way give the AoE capability to some extent to all of our weapon choices. Vital Shot pierce for P/X and P/P would get both VS and Unload.

Also consider lengthening the duration of Black Powder by 1-2s. It’d make using it less of a spammable chore and initiative drain, which sucks the fun factor out of using it, turning into a skill in the “Bleh, have to use it again…” category. It won’t be a major deal breaker in PvP as it still requires for you stay standing inside its small radius to get its effect, thus decreasing your mobility further if you wish to fully utilize this possible change in the PvP aspect of the game. It’d simply be a PvE QoL improvement.

It isn’t smart in PvE either. You’re losing damage by spamming it. You cast it 1-2 times(Depending on do you have Steal ready to be used so it restores atleast a part of the extra initiative the 2nd Unload uses.) and pool back initiative, once back to full/nearly full, repeat the process. Basically attempt to hover around 8-10’ish minimum initiative at all times, to get as much benefit as possible from Lead Attacks.

It was a bandaid buff and fully necessary. Unload needs AoE capability, but so does Vital Shot. Give us piercing and increase the cast speed of VS to 1/3s or 1/4s. That way the damage ratios are a bit more balanced, Unload will still offer on-demand high burst capability.(Which is the P/P niché and the thing many of us playing P/P love.) Also, if these changes came into play, the sustained DPS loss of actually using our utilities wouldn’t be even nearly as drastic as it is with the current setup.

Maugetarr.6823:

I’m going to disagree with you on this point. The changes I made are specifically to allow better initiative management by moving the values around. Lets look at S/D for comparison since it has an evade built into the set. The Autoattack chain is the biggest source of sustained damage. Larcenous strike has a decent chunk on it too sitting at a 1.5 multiplier. You wouldn’t say that S/D lacks proper initiative management simply because the sustained damage comes from autos, but rather it frees up initiative for the proper use of the skills on the set. Right now the spec is dumb because it competes with proper management. That’s why you rarely see serious use in PvP. The proper design should be like SB which allows you to use the skills as needed. Since the set would still lack the escape options that SB has, it should be a strong in-combat, single target contender for the spot. That means increasing the damage output and utility by fixing 1, 2, and 3. Adding sustain by making a half second evade that still has a 1.2 overall multipler would help the skill cap, not hurt it.

As to your point on why you would use any skill on the set because of the loss from Lead Attacks… if that’s your stance on it, why would you use any skills except autos on any set? You would because the situation calls for it. Right now P/P only worries about damage output and sinks all of it into 3. If it’s not, then DPS is extremely poor on it. The goal is to bring P/P up to the levels of the other sets in terms of strength and utility. Deviating from 3 spam will not dumb down the set.

Guess we simply believe in different models of skill and playstyle design. I personally believe that there needs to be interaction with the primary source of DPS, not only utility. I’ll just counter your first argument about my point with the Lead Attacks. You would ALWAYS use higher damage multiplier attacks and/or attacks with other large benefits over the AA, but only to the point where the loss of initiative and the multiplier/benefits provided by it, won’t lead to a sustained DPS loss.(In most cases for P/P, 1-2 Unloads and then pool back initiative.) You also seem to favour using other weapon sets as example, which function completely differently from how P/P works. P/P and S/P provide BURST dps, which f.ex. S/D and SB do not have. It’s a different form of pressure, outside of the utilities/harassment S/D, from your example, does and provides. Different skill sets have different playstyles and you seem to want to turn P/P into a ranged version of S/D, which is fine for you, if you like that playstyle, but not fine for any of us, who are accustomed to initiative management in the DPS sense of things and having on-demand burst DPS capability.

And, this being just my personal opinion, the skillcap and need for predicting things is also higher, when you need to decide between dealing medium-to-high damage or switching to utility/support, instead of always dealing medium-to-high damage and having free on-demand utility/support. Its a handicap if you’re bad at it, but works fine, if you’re able to follow what happens around you so you can predict what’s going to happen next.

Maugetarr.6823:

But I’m going to disagree with you and say that unload is broken. All the sustained damage comes from unload which ia an initiative hog. My suggested changes move the sustained damage to the autos and put the utility back into the reat of the set. P/P will still retain it’s burst DPS on unload, but won’t be dependant on the skill just to maintain DPS. Keep in mind unload saw a significant DPS boost when its channel was reduced from an overall 2.35 second cast time to a 1.75 second cast time. That was a 35% DPS boost to the skill which still left P/P in the same situation. A flat buff to damage across the board isn’t going to change how you use the set mechanically. Also, i would like to point out that body shot is only useless because it takes away from the initiative needed to maintain the sustained damage from Unload. It makes no mathematical sense to spend it on body shot because it will lower your DPS overall. Moving the sustained damage to the autoattack would allow you to use body shot in a way that makes sense because it wouldn’t lower the frequency of your damaging attacks. Sure body shot could use a mechanical change too which is why I think boon hate would be good for it, but mobility wouldn’t be bad either.

As for proc chance, in the same time frame as you have 8 shots right now from unload, you would have 5 total from unload and 1 auto. The difference between the proc chances is actually very small. Not to mention that you would have the initiative to spend on 100% projectile finishers.

As an aside, 3 spam right now on P/P is your autoattack for the set; it just costs initiative so you don’t have initiative left for anything else on the set. Saying that P/P will become tedious because it’s sustained damage will come from 1 instead of 3 is the wrong way to look at it. P/P is already tedious mechanically. If it weren’t for the cool looking animation, it would be much more apparent.

What P/P needs is to not have its sustained damage attached to initiative, but autos like the other successful sets. The other skills need to have utility in them or burst damage. P4&5 are un a good position. Unload essentially needs to be moved to the 1 position in functiin since it’s providing the sustained DPS for the set while P2&3 need to be given situationally useful utility (condi clears, boon hate, evades, mobility, whatever). Unload fights the thief design right now because it is the substitute for a poor autoattack.

Just going to break the quote wall a bit, but anyway… You forgot to consider the management of initiative which is necessary when most/all of the damage is NOT coming from the AA’s, but from Unloads instead, the utiliziation of Haste to its maximum effect, initiative pooling etc. When you shift the primary source of damage from Unload to AA, you dumb down the spec insanely much. Sure, it will “free” the initiative to use elsewhere, but why would you use ANY initiative at all since you would LOSE damage by doing so, not gain, as you need to remember that unspent initiative acts as a damage modifier. Full initiative counts as a flat 15% damage modifier, which is too good to pass up, especially if most/all of our damage would come from AA’s which do not cost any initiative at all.

Maugetarr.6823:

Shimekiri.1580:

Maugetarr.6823:

babazhook.6805:

Maugetarr.6823:

Auto could have its damage increased to a 0.75 multiplier since it’s single target damage at only 900 range.

Pistol 2 could have a boon strip with the vuln that would put the utility on par with SB.

Unload could have its shots cut in half if they’d give it a backwards roll (and buff auto). The whole skill could fire 4 shots over 0.75 seconds while giving a 0.5 second evade frame similar to shortbow.

Finally, put a piercing trait in for pistols. They need some way to compete with the multitarget capabilities of shortbow which far outclasses pistols in a teamfight.

Problem with unload shots cut in half it breaks SOM procs it cuts down on IP health gain and it compromises the sigil procs with low cooldowns.

The sheer number of shots on unload is part of what makes it tick in the set and Pierce will not make up for that,.

Yea, but with the channel time cut in half, you should be able to use it twice in the same amount of time. Yes, that’s more initiative, but you also get the evades while you’re hitting ao you ahould be taking less damage overall. In a teamfight, piercing 1 target to hit what you’re aiming at would make up the difference, so positioning yourself to hit clones and pets would give you the same benefit as now. Also, with the majority of the damage coming from the autos, you will have the initiative to interrupt channels that would cause you to burn dodges to avoid currently. I don’t think P/P needs to be held back overall because of the interaction between our signet heal and Unload.

The thing is, you’re thinking about this in the PvP vacuum, when you need to think about it in the PvE aspect of the game aswell. Also note that if utilizing maximum range like in in many encounters you are, such as Tequatl or any Fractal bosses etc. a backwards flip is VERY counterproductive as it hurls you out of range, which is also very counterproductive in PvP as it can cause objects to get in the line of fire, the target to go out of range or again atleast in the PvE aspect of the game, for you to get flipped back into an AoE behind you, which could kill in less than a second. We do NOT want any kind of movement tied to Unload. Body Shot is the only skill currently without a valuable function tied to it, so that is where we should look at, for a mobility oriented skill.

But you’re talking about preserving a skill that turns the set into a 3 spam. Yes I am looking at it in a PvP vacuum because you can use virtually any weapon set in PvE and be successful. The point of this though is not to keep using unload like you currently do which would support your concern, but rather to move the damage to the autoattack so you have the options to use 2-5 when the fight calls for it rather than having to sink all of your initiative into unload.

Right now the total multiplier is 2.4 over 1.75 seconds (including aftercast). That makes the skill into 1.31 mult/sec. That doesn’t sound so bad, except that when you normalize it over the time to recharge 5 Initiative, it drops to 0.48 mult/sec of recharge. Do you know what else has a 0.48 mult/sec? Vital shot in its current form. The thing is that people see big numbers on Unload and assume it’s a good skill on the set, but it’s such a resource hog that it’s holding the rest of the set back. So why did I pick 0.75? Well, when you use Unload (and hit with the full channel) and add that to the damage from the 4 remaining shots in the 5 seconds waiting for initiative to regen, you get a 0.8 mult/sec ((2.4 + 4×0.4)÷5). They wanted to give pistols a ~20% boost, so 0.8×1.2=0.96 mult/sec. Changing the autoattack to 0.75 then dividing it by its shot to shot time gives us 0.75÷0.82=0.91, which is a 13% boost to the current unload + autoattack that P/P is on just the autoattack. I didn’t give it the full 20% because we have the initiative to use all of our skills on the bar as needed while still maintaining higher overall DPS than we currently do with the set for no initiative.

Sure, the stuff that you mentioned could be a problem if you continue to use Unload like the set demands right now, but you shouldn’t be doing that anymore because the changes allow you to use the skills on the set as needed rather than the initiative sink the set is in its current form.

I understand your point, but you’re trying to fix what isn’t broken. The AA wouldn’t be able to replace the synergy of Unload with sigils, on-crit effects and various field effects such as blind. Also, just buffing AA damage multiplier and nerfing Unload wouldn’t change the situation to the better, it would actually make it worse as in your case, all the PvE people would be doing is use the AA and afk/spam Black Powder.(And I don’t think this would be rare in PvP either.) Unload would become in PvE pretty much the same as Body Shot is in both PvE and PvP, useless outside of very rare niche situations, whilst making playing P/P in atleast in PvE an AA chore which is boring as hell as you wouldn’t need to do anything except move out of the random crap thrown at you. This isn’t something anyone really wants and I don’t think you want that either. Also, if we went down this route, you’d still be leaving our most useless skill, Body Shot, as is, with no changes and by buffing the AA damage multiplier, instead of the attack speed, you’d leave the set extremely slow-paced with even less to do than currently.

There are three things P/P truly needs(Atleast in my opinion.), a mobility skill, AoE capability and AA attack speed boost to 1/3s or 1/4s, to bring P/P closer to what the other classes and weapon sets on thief itself are capable of dishing out damage-wise. Body Shot is the perfect and only viable candidate for the mobility skill and for AoE, pierce would be the go-to non-random mechanic, if randomness was the true reason the bounce mechanic was removed.

Maugetarr.6823:

babazhook.6805:

Maugetarr.6823:

Auto could have its damage increased to a 0.75 multiplier since it’s single target damage at only 900 range.

Pistol 2 could have a boon strip with the vuln that would put the utility on par with SB.

Unload could have its shots cut in half if they’d give it a backwards roll (and buff auto). The whole skill could fire 4 shots over 0.75 seconds while giving a 0.5 second evade frame similar to shortbow.

Finally, put a piercing trait in for pistols. They need some way to compete with the multitarget capabilities of shortbow which far outclasses pistols in a teamfight.

Problem with unload shots cut in half it breaks SOM procs it cuts down on IP health gain and it compromises the sigil procs with low cooldowns.

The sheer number of shots on unload is part of what makes it tick in the set and Pierce will not make up for that,.

Yea, but with the channel time cut in half, you should be able to use it twice in the same amount of time. Yes, that’s more initiative, but you also get the evades while you’re hitting ao you ahould be taking less damage overall. In a teamfight, piercing 1 target to hit what you’re aiming at would make up the difference, so positioning yourself to hit clones and pets would give you the same benefit as now. Also, with the majority of the damage coming from the autos, you will have the initiative to interrupt channels that would cause you to burn dodges to avoid currently. I don’t think P/P needs to be held back overall because of the interaction between our signet heal and Unload.

The thing is, you’re thinking about this in the PvP vacuum, when you need to think about it in the PvE aspect of the game aswell. Also note that if utilizing maximum range like in in many encounters you are, such as Tequatl or any Fractal bosses etc. a backwards flip is VERY counterproductive as it hurls you out of range, which is also very counterproductive in PvP as it can cause objects to get in the line of fire, the target to go out of range or again atleast in the PvE aspect of the game, for you to get flipped back into an AoE behind you, which could kill in less than a second. We do NOT want any kind of movement tied to Unload. Body Shot is the only skill currently without a valuable function tied to it, so that is where we should look at, for a mobility oriented skill.

Edit: Typoz.

Edit 2: Also, evade frames added into Unload, without anything movement related such as a backward flip, is completely off the table, without removing the ability to move while Unload is casting, which is also unreasonable, considering its one of the best parts about Unload, that you still retain your ability to move and don’t get locked into place, unlike f.ex. Pistol Whip.

Might not be an accurate representation of the class in its current state, but ignoring that, wasn’t too bad of a vid.

Just going to quote myself from: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Balance-Patch-Notes-confirmed/page/2

….
TL;DR, P/P is a pure DPS set. It offers no mobility or survivability when compared to the other alternatives, it deals less damage than the alternatives and it has worse utility than the alternatives. Either the damage needs to be buffed, a lot more than what’s already coming, so it’s at the level it needs to be in, to counter these quite severe disadvantages, or the damage is buffed to be atleast on par, while Body Shot and Vital Shot will be fully reworked. Preferably keep the damage of Vital Shot where it is going to be after this upcoming buff, but reduce the cast from 1/2s to 1/4s and then change the Body Shot to some kind of low-cost/no-cost(With a short CD. 10s?) disengage type skill, which will allow us to open a gap on a target getting too close for comfort, which could also still apply the short immobilize effect(Which could/should be buffed to 2s duration.), which would strengthen the gap opener capability of it. After just these small changes, all we’d need is a little love in the AoE department via a pierce effect f.ex. and the skillset would be pretty much fixed.

I’d also like to state that Unload as a skill is fine, the mechanics are fine, but the damage still needs a little help, possibly more than what’s coming up/has been promised, depending on what’s going to happen with Vital Shot, but we’ll see once the patch and the changes hit live, along with all of the other upcoming changes. Aside from these, what P/P needs the most is just some AoE capability and a piercing mechanic would be ideal, since bounce seems to be out of the question due to its “randomness”. You can aim where your shots will hit after piercing a target just fine so the reason the bounce was removed isn’t exactly valid for a pierce effect.

Coronit.9432:

Headshot: “1/4s daze for 4 inititiative is just ridiculously bad and not worth using unless you can interrupt something completely catastrophic to your entire team with it.”

What?! In PvP this skill is perfect. You have to look out, be careful when to use it (stabi, block, invuln, etc), but if used in the right moment it can be a game-changing component —> interrupting banner twice, someone rezzing/stomping, etc. 4 ini are worth it and secure that it wont be spammed. Don´t use it mindless. Spamming it should be punished (as its now).

Don´t know exactly how it is in PvE-enviroment, but to get some defiance-stacks down it works, too.
Damage from stuff like unload of course should be weeker, its channeled, more attacks (favoring sigil-procs, trait-procs, etc) and ranged. Backstab is melee, from behind and you have to be in stealth. In the right hands even P/P can be very powerful, but still lacking things that make us important in PvP —> mobility.

Like said, Head Shot has its uses, but it could be more than just an emergency interrupt, if you, by sheer luck, happen to be targeting a player with said abilities that could screw over your entire team.

Also, I’d like to point out that on the contrary, the damage should be atleast on par with what the melees deal, as when you’re doing ranged combat, you’re forsaking might stacking etc. that happens in melee range.(PvE side.) Regarding PvP, the range is already shorter than what the other classes have in their ranged weapon a-/rsenal(Really? This needs to be censored aswell?), so I don’t see the “you’re ranged, you should deal less damage” concept applying here, when there are already others doing better DPS from far longer distances than what we’re able to.(On top of having FAR better survivability than us, but getting side-tracked…) Add on top of that the fact that ranged weapons have specialized counter mechanics that melees don’t need to deal with, such as reflect.(On top of us needing to deal with EVERY mechanic that nullifies melee damage.) Now, consider also the fact that when using P/P, we have LESS survivability and LESS mobility than with any of our melee counterparts and we have no AoE capability of any kind, at all.(No access to stealth outside of Hide in Shadows or Shadow Refuge. No mobility skills of any kind, compared to f.ex. D/X Heartseeker or S/X Infiltrator’s Strike. You can also add evade frames to this list from S/P f.ex. with its Pistol Whip, which not only stuns the target for a short period of time, but gives you evasion after the first hit connects, until the skill has finished casting.[And all of the hits deal AoE damage, on top of doing more single target damage aswell, when compared to Unload.])

TL;DR, P/P is a pure DPS set. It offers no mobility or survivability when compared to the other alternatives, it deals less damage than the alternatives and it has worse utility than the alternatives. Either the damage needs to be buffed, a lot more than what’s already coming, so it’s at the level it needs to be in, to counter these quite severe disadvantages, or the damage is buffed to be atleast on par, while Body Shot and Vital Shot will be fully reworked. Preferably keep the damage of Vital Shot where it is going to be after this upcoming buff, but reduce the cast from 1/2s to 1/4s and then change the Body Shot to some kind of low-cost/no-cost(With a short CD. 10s?) disengage type skill, which will allow us to open a gap on a target getting too close for comfort, which could also still apply the short immobilize effect(Which could/should be buffed to 2s duration.), which would strengthen the gap opener capability of it. After just these small changes, all we’d need is a little love in the AoE department via a pierce effect f.ex. and the skillset would be pretty much fixed.

Gallant Pigeon.5807:

You have a point shimekiri. However, if head shot / body shot / autoattack on pistol are to be competitive DPS wise they will need far more than a 20% damage buff. Personally I would prefer a change in functionality in #2, #5 and #4, since p/p already has a good source of damage.

They don’t need to be competitive in the DPS sense of things, they need to be made worthwhile to use. Head Shot has its rare uses, sure, as an interrupt like I said in my earlier post, but it could be much more than that. Body Shot is the primary problem skill as it isn’t really useful for anything. It needs to be redesigned. I’m fine with Unload and Vital Shot being the primary DPS abilities, however, Vital Shot will need to decide at some point, is it going to be condi or power as in its current state, its bad for both.(Should be power as is Unload. Otherwise all the damage of P/P would come from Unload, which would mean it would have to be buffed to ungodly levels to compensate, which wouldn’t be good either.)

Black Powder is a great source of smoke fields and on-demand blinds and I wouldn’t really touch it that much, perhaps lower the initiative cost by 1- 2 or increase the duration of it by 2s. It still locks you in a small area for its duration anyway if you want to utilize it, so an increase in its duration would be the alternative that would force you to stay in it to utilize it fully, wheras lowering the initiative cost would allow for more freedom of movement as it would be cheaper to re-apply if you’re forced to move for one reason or the other.(Just to be clear, I’d be only after one of the two buff ideas on the skill. Either one would be fine imo.)

Gallant Pigeon.5807:

…
p/p 20% damage buff? – Damage was never the issue. The issue is that #3 is the only skill this weapon set uses.
…

Damage has always been an issue. Its far weaker than any of the other weaponsets available. The problem isn’t the fact that Unload is the only skill being used either, its the fact that the utilities provided by Body Shot and Head Shot are terricrap most of the time due to the massive initiative hog which in return hurts the DPS further. Vital Shot is just in a very bad place, a skill that doesn’t know “which sex it represents”, condi or power, on top of having a ridiculously long “cast time”, when compared to the damage output. Black Powder is the only situational skill that has its uses, but again, the heavy initiative cost gimps the DPS in turn. Also the fact is that we spend far more time using the subpar Vital Shot than doing anything else, due to both of the initiative using skills that we do use, Unload & Black Powder, are massive initiative hogs and our options are either to provide the smoke field and blinds to our group and ONLY use Vital Shot for DPS or to say screw even the little utility we might be able to provide, so we can deal damage that is better than the Vital Shot scheit, but still subpar when compared to anything any other weaponset would be dishing out. On top of the flat damage buff that P/P seems to be recieving, it needs some form of AoE capability, best option being pierce as bounce is unlikely to come back.

To be honest, Body Shot needs to be completely redesigned, with the current version of it being flushed down the toilet and having it never looked at again. Head Shot could be saved, by ramping up the daze time to 3/4s or even 1s and then just adjust the initiative cost to 5 or 6 initiative. 1/4s daze for 4 inititiative is just ridiculously bad and not worth using unless you can interrupt something completely catastrophic to your entire team with it. It would have no heavy PvP ramifications either as the attack would still have lots of counters, such as dodges and projectile reflects etc. and nothing would prevent a player from just soaking through 3-4s of daze(Under the kittenumption that a thief would be running at full initiative mid-fight, instead of just the start of it.) either, instead of using the many counters to said mechanic, if the thief would feel like using all of their possible DPS capability on locking a person out of the equasion for a few seconds.

Sidenote; I guess a-/s-/s-/umption really is swear word.

Zodryn.4216:

Because those other 200 skills are also high damage evading sword skills…also, thief builds are heavily defined by their dual skill. Pistol whip’s uselessness is the entire reason nobody uses S/P. Give it a qol improvement and people may actually try it. And again, I ask here because Roy seems to have good ideas and is actually communicating. Maybe he could help Karl brainstorm improvements? I don’t know why people are getting so worked up. I’m appreciating Roy’s work, not QQing about rev being OP.

All I’m going to point out is that don’t use hyperboles, they’ll just undermine any kind of point you’re trying to make. PW might not be “perfect” for PvP, but it is perfectly fine in PvE. And yeah… If you wanted to add mobility into the mix, you’d need to give up atleast the evades and the stun.(Saying this as a person who plays S/P thief as a main.)

TL;DR, PW isn’t anywhere near useless and S/P is played by people. S/P just isn’t the most dominant PvP set, which is the case with many other weapon sets of other classes aswell.

Black Frog.9274:

I listed many more damage traits than just ankle shots. They’re also in more than one line. What about them? Why haven’t you factored that in?

I don’t know about you, but with the Fury uptime, I can run 100% crit chance with an Assassin set. With a basic berserker setup (2 pistols, armor, scholar, accessories) and NO utilities, not counting Fury, and no upgrades on the trinkets, you get 58% base crit chance. Add in the crit bonuses that are situational from Crit line (fury at 20, 5, 7) and you’re at 90% a good amount of time and 78% almost permanently. And that’s without food/utilities/buffs/sigils.

Let’s see the build you’re referring to.

Talking about running a berserker set, like almost everyone.(Not saying you can’t run assassins, if you so wished.) You’re at(58,33% crit chance with full ascended berserker gear.) 65% crit if/when you can stay behind/on the side of a target and at 85% if/when you can keep Fury up reliably.(Assuming solo content. Not a problem in world bosses f.ex.) What you’re not factoring in is the fact that we lost the utility to provide vulnerability with the Sundering Strikes trait(And to multiple targets with the Ricochet cleave, if it procced.), as we’re pretty much forced into Ankle Shots for the added range.(The damage increase being a negligible/unreliable boost on the side.) Pre-patch, I was running at around 67-68% baseline crit chance with the added base stats from the trait system(The stats might’ve been “scaled up” on the gear, but it didn’t buff back the stats you gained which aren’t present as the top-tier stat in your gear.), and at 72-73% crit chance for pistols, with the dual pistol specific trait, which also used to provide us the said 10% damage boost. This isn’t taking into account fury etc. which you could also have back then. The new fury talents are not a damage increase, but a QoL improvement as now we don’t need to rely on others to provide the buff for us, since we can buff it and keep it up ourselves. Now add to this cake everything else that has been previously said, such as the loss of Opportunist, rescaling of condition damage gimping the already subpar damage of our auto-attack even further(Since we’re running power builds.) and you’ll start to have a decently clear image of what’s happened.

There are many factors to take note of(And I don’t think I’ve listed even half of them.), but the fact is, our max DPS is lower than it used to be. I’ll grant you that maintaining Fury is easier in the current state of the game as we don’t need to rely on others to provide it/keep it up.

3 second burst window every 8 seconds, instead of 10% all of the time and even then, the raw math([100/8*3]*0,1=3,75% increase in damage over time.) will only show the “optimal damage increase” result, when in reality you won’t be able to even use 1 single Unload everytime you have the “buff” up. Compare that to a flat 10% bonus and well… you get the point. This isn’t taking into account the crit chance loss we had either. Long story short: Our damage is worse than what it was and by a semi-noticeable margin.

epoc.7941:

Staff is fantastic most ppl who qq about it qq about its animations which I agree with or qq saying that it sucks which it doesn’t most thrives are horrible and spam all their skills ftw. Staff is an attempt to slow that style down and make it more deliberate and allow for more strategic play…I think they did that well after making the adjustment I was running a s/d staff build and was doing great I do think staff can use a small damage buff but it’s fantastic right now and I just think most thrives are terrible and don’t know how to make the adjustment bc they’re so used to either spamming 521 222222 or p/p and hide behind other players so they don’t know how to be in a sustained fight

And you sir, have no clue what P/P thieves were able to do, can do and should do.(If a person is still playing it in PvE/PvP/WvW.) If your purpose here is to just to rage about your beloved weapon/skillset X being better than Y and that it requires “more skill” to play than Z, simply because of one remark from someone who doesn’t like the staff playstyle in this specific instance, please do it somewhere else. The conversation is already shifting away from the main focus anyway. If however, you have something more constructive to add, please do. I’d like to see the remaining P/P threads to remain a bit more civil and on the actual topic though, so we could have some proper discussions about how to try and fix this crippled weapon/skillset, with the small hope that the dear devs would listen to what we have to say, about how to make the set more enjoyable to play, atleast in the PvE-side, even if it wouldn’t be the “new meta”.

Ricochet was the needed bandaid fix for PvE, but had too many PvP implications in its old form and I fully well understand that. What I don’t understand is why not just give Unload, the primary DPS ability of P/P either a piercing or bouncing effect or simply bring back Ricochet trait back like it was but with exactly one change; status effects would not effect the bounces, which would remove the PvP balance issues it caused if a person got a lucky streak with the procs.(This[Bringing back the old Ricochet.], could be a massive and unfeasible undertaking, depending on how the “procced” projectiles are created/handled in general, but if there’s a chance to do it and its feasible, it’s the option I’d like to see.)

Ankle Shots is purely bad though. The only good part in that talent is the hidden 150 range increase.

Black Frog.9274:

-snip-
We all have to resign ourselves: ricochet is gone for good. Single target damage is better now, esp with the right traits, so spreading it out with Ricochet would be pretty powerful. I don’t even know what it would replace if they brought it back.
-snip-

Actually the damage is worse, so need to correct you on that. We lost 10% baseline damage, we lost the chance-to-gain-initiative-on-crit(This hurt all the crit builds.) and now we need to talent for “10%” extra damage on crippled targets with a badly thought out mechanic of having a chance of throwing out a cripple effect for 3s every 8s, assuming the target can’t/won’t get rid of it during that already short period of time, where we used to be able to go for chance-to-inflict-vulnerability-on-crit. No matter how you choose your talents, you will do less damage overall than with the old talent system, on top of having less group utility and all the other previously mentioned factors.

edit: Fixed a typo.

I think a lot of us are hoping for somekind of reincarnation for the Ricochet trait to make the spec atleast playable in general PvE content, outside of a few special cases that still exist,(Dwayna event end comes to mind.) where it can be considered a valid alternative. The sad truth is that the few special cases don’t even justify the cost and bag space taken by even owning the set. Only those that really enjoy the P/P playstyle will even bother with it, considering that it’s so far behind on all fronts, when compared to all alternatives.

Squishy class is squishy, it all ends up with you needing to memorize key mechanics/abilities and their animations.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Shimekiri.1580:

There are no viable P/P builds. There are subpar P/P builds for those that really wish to keep on playing it.

You seem to erroneously think “viable” and “optimal” are synonyms. They aren’t. Not even “meta” and “optimal” are synonyms, though you’d make a much better case if you were arguing that.

Even with ricochet, p/p wasn’t really something you’d ever use in pve (I would know, as I ran p/p in pve). That being said, there are already plenty of different ways to play p/p, and more are coming with daredevil.

I don’t mix the two things, simply used it in the same sense that most people seem to interpret it as, which means competitive, an alternative where you wouldn’t kitten yourself badly when choosing it.(Sorry for generalizing people and their views though, if that’s what you’re after.) You are doing that though, gimping yourself that is, by playing it. It still holds value for fights where you can’t go “balls-deep” melee, where ranged just shines.

However if you need/want me to clarify the point, its the fact that you can use P/P, however it isn’t even close to being competitive with the other alternatives with the subpar DPS and 0 AoE capability, when compared to said alternatives. You’re simply gimping yourself by not playing something else, whenever you’re able to. Ricochet is what made it atleast a viable/semi-competitive option for general PvE content where there’s almost always AoE present. The lack of said mechanic, or something similar removes that option and its ability to compete with any of the other alternatives in said content.

Facts are these: DPS is low compared to the alternatives such as D/D or S/P. P/P has no AoE viability of any kind. You’re better off smacking enemies with wet noodles than attempting to AoE with P/P, since no form of AoE exists for P/P, when the alternatives can and are able to deal medium-to-high AoE damage and still have high survivability due to the ability mechanics, such as Pistol Whip evasion for S/P. Ricochet was the only thing keeping P/P an option, a niché. Hard to call P/P even a niché at the moment, even if its the set that I love the most in the game. Its fun to play, there’s no denying that, but when the conversation shifts to efficiency, its the worst of the worst. In its current state, it has only a handful of occasions when its truly useful. It used to be an option you could consider playing without gimping yourself too much in all of the PvE content in the game, which is something you can’t do in its current state.(Saying that as a thief who ran fractals and all other aspects of PvE in P/P. It simply feels sluggish now and there’s no way I would go to fractals etc. with it, only to be carried through all of the content when I would be contributing far less, than with the other options available.)

Ghotistyx.6942:

Some people are really salty about this trait. Like, I understand being disappointed, but not even all the oceans have this much salt.

If you take a look around, you’ll find plenty of viable p/p builds.

There are no viable P/P builds. There are subpar P/P builds for those that really wish to keep on playing it. The damage is worse than what it was before the talent system change and the removal of ricochet removed any viability it had in general PvE due to the set now lacking AoE. Fact is, you’ll only play P/P if you love it and even then, only in single enemy encounters, in situations when you just can’t stay in melee range effectively. In all other cases, you’re better off playing S/P or D/D. (Used to play P/P Sb, but switched to S/P P/P due to the removal of ricochet, the loss of AoE just hurts too much.)

My Staff Uran…

Auesis.7301:

Shimekiri.1580:

Sorel.4870:

And it look likes it will greatly improve the state of S/D, S/P and P/P. Well done.

Actually it will do NOTHING to improve the state of P/P. It’ll keep it just as bad as it is, due to the lack of utility and 0 AoE. At best, it’ll make P/P a slightly more viable niche build for PvP.

Getting access to Leap Finishers on dodge with a Smoke field won’t help P/P?

Yeah. It won’t. Far too little to compensate anything regarding what was lost in PvE viability with Ricochet and in PvP, P/P has never been anything but a niché build. Our single target DPS is lower than what it was prior to the changes to the traitlines and these changes could be described as trying to use a small bandage to stop a person who has had his innards carved out and thrown in the open, from bleeding out.

Perhaps a little “dramatic/graphic” comparison, but that is the true state of P/P thief in all aspects of the game. It is not viable for the majority of PvE content and sure as hell not viable for any PvP content. You can play it, but you’ll be gimping yourself heavily by not playing S/P or D/P and you’ll be getting your rear handed to you on a platter by any competent opponent, outside of another P/P thief.(On that note; Don’t even care about the PvP aspect that much, always been more PvE oriented, even if I did enjoy playing both.)

Do note that the complaints are not about survivability: They’re about utility and DPS, where P/P just gets outperformed by pretty much everyone. I could give a massive list of problems such as: short range, low DPS, 1# skill is a bad hybrid skill that doesn’t work for condi or for power, too heavy initiative cost for Headshot etc. for us to be able to deal even the subpar DPS we’d be dealing with Unload, since we’ll die without the use of said skill and the main utility was lost in WvW or any group PvP for that matter, with the removal of Ricochet and the AoE interrupt/root capability, which wasn’t even 100% guaranteed, but helped immensely when it worked.

TL;DR P/P has never been above mediocre in any aspect of the game, hardly even mediocre, but the changes that came, completely destroyed the fact that it had atleast been a viable option. The loss in DPS compartment however pales in comparison to the utility and AoE capability lost with the removal of Ricochet. These changes do nothing but increase our survivability marginally, without addressing the REAL problems with the skillset and traitlines.

Edit; Fixed a couple of typos.

Kept hoping and hoping they’d do something about this mistake, atleast by the time they’d get to our elite spec. Guess I really am going to bury this game in the dusty archives and perhaps in some years come back to see if anything has changed for the better.

Sorel.4870:

And it look likes it will greatly improve the state of S/D, S/P and P/P. Well done.

Actually it will do NOTHING to improve the state of P/P. It’ll keep it just as bad as it is, due to the lack of utility and 0 AoE. At best, it’ll make P/P a slightly more viable niche build for PvP.

I’ve been away from the game ever since the patch hit, only logging in casually a few times, hoping for something to change, to no avail. There’s too many people always claiming it’s the end of the game and whatnot, although its simply the end of the game for us few, who truly mainly enjoyed playing it in the fashion that was now broken down and removed.

I’ll continue to withhold all my purchases and not play the game, for as long as P/P remains in an unplayable/unenjoyable state and hope that at some point, with all of the concerns raised by the many other P/P Ricochet thieves out there aswell, this massive blunder will get rectified. The devs at Anet really dropped the the ball on this one. Badly. I just wish they realize its not a sign of weakness but courage to just step up and admit their mistake and then rectify it.

A lot of you seem to be talking about PvP, when its PvE where the build suffers. Horribly. The removal of Ricochet practically killed it, since with its removal we lost all AoE capability, AoE CC/interrupt/debuff capability and we took a massive hit to our self-healing via Signet of Malice, making it completely useless in the current state of the build. For singletarget the build works fine. For AoE, which 99% of PvE is, its in a terribad condition.

For singletarget P/P is viable, however if you want the added range that Ricochet used to provide, you’re forced into taking Ankle Shots(The added range is baked into it, even though it isn’t mentioned in the tooltip.). The weapon range by itself is a QoL issue, but the lower range isn’t even justifiable anymore, considering all the other classes have the same level of speed/mobility a thief has nowdays.

For general PvE play, no, P/P isn’t “viable”, outside of singletarget boss fights. With the removal of Ricochet, P/P lost all of its AoE capability, all of its AoE crowdcontrol functionality(Ricocheted bullets also applied/had a chance to apply secondary/on-crit effects of the ability such as daze/immobilize/vulnerability.), a large portion of its self-healing via Signet of Malice(Not viable anymore as the result of the removal of Ricochet.) and its AoE debuff(Vulnerability.) capability.

Now, with all that said; P/P is still viable, even for “AoE”. Is it even close to being competitive for AoE? No. For singletarget it’s fine, but playing it becomes a chore when you have even two targets attacking you/your group. What P/P really needs is the old ricochet mechanic back or a mechanic similar to the pierce rangers just got(With the old debuff/CC application system of secondary hits active.), so we’ll bring more to the table than a singletarget glasscannon/AoE-wet-noodle.

Shimekiri.1580:

Shimekiri.1580:

Ticket: 1365362, gone 26 days without a reply so far. Thank you.

46 days now, no response. Still hoping I’ll be able to reset my GW1 account password. <_<

I finally got a response and got the password reset link, unfortunately it came at a time when I was unable to access my email/didn’t check it.(The reset has a 24h timer.) Now waiting for a new reply for them to re-send the reset link. :> I’ll be checking my email daily now. :P

Small edit: Gotten my GW1 account back now and safely linked with my GW2 account. :P I’d like to thank all the GM’s who spent their time assisting me. 13/05/2015.

Shimekiri.1580:

Ticket: 1365362, gone 26 days without a reply so far. Thank you.

46 days now, no response. Still hoping I’ll be able to reset my GW1 account password. <_<

Ticket: 1365362, gone 26 days without a reply so far. Thank you.