Guild Wars 2

Are you under water when it doesn’t work? It won’t, unless you put one in your breather.

That said, you should put one on your pvp breather too next time you feel like some spvp. That’s the only way it should show 12/6 runes.

So like I said, I was bored so I did some messing around.

I haven’t much used an axe since leveling, so I don’t really read on it, so I’m not exactly sure what has changed, or rather what you think has changed. I checked the video I used to make a test and the delay between DC and TC is still there and all the times between the various chops seem the same. Because of that the numbers I’m using just uses my old data for the swing times.

So here is what I did, I interrupted as I finished my second double chop a few times and when I did my 3rd tripple chop a few times. I used cyclone axe because the cast time seems more in line with it’s tooltip (I didn’t bother with multiple tests on the time though) while dual strike seems more like 4/5 of a second instead of a half. I didn’t bother to test with throw either.

I found when I interrupted after DC it was about .35 seconds after the last hit of CA that the first chop would come. If I did it after the final hit of TC it was about .4 seconds after CA that I chopped. Using those numbers I made an theoretical rotation of hits chop DC CA, and a chop DC TC CA then divided by the “real” time it would take to do those. The conclusion was interrupting after the DC was a 12% damage gain over TC and 25% over just the auto swing. That’s not including the vulnerability stacks.

That comes with an asterisk though, because this is best case scenario. You have to do it in such a time that you eat up that delay between DC and TC with the CA or the delay between the last TC and chop. If you use an axe you’re probably good at it, for a novice like me that damage gain would probably be a negative when interrupting TC.

Another asterisk is that CA cooldown lines up better when used between TC and chop rather than interrupting. I don’t feel like spending more time on this now, but it might be significant that you’re waiting for after DC instead of lining up almost perfectly with TC.

Like I said I don’t use axes so I didn’t know about that TC hit and I had a flubbed test vid that I found I had done it once, so it is still doable. Though when I did it I hit the CA button .07s before the TC hit. I’m not so sure that would be a DPS gain, since that delay is what kills the axe TC dps.

You have to consider the time it takes to end the DC and start the next chop. Chop doesn’t come instantly. It is worth testing to see if you incur the same pause before your next chop as you get letting the rotation flow through completely. The big “problem” is the apparent pause between DC and TC, but that is still shorter from my testing than the pause between the end of a full rotation with TC and starting the next rotation with chop. I am nearly bored enough to do this. If people stop posting stuff for me to read maybe I will get bored enough to actually do it. ;D

NinjaSonic.1392:

Actually the only reason GS out damages Hammer is because of Hundred Blades. Using the 1 skill the Hammer deals more damage than GS.

It isn’t as much as you might think even ignoring buffs and debuffs, which is where GS really kills the hammer. Auto swing tooltips lie, and a full rotation of the hammer’s is about .4 seconds slower than the GS.

It is tough to follow because it is raw data like I said. I just copy-pasted from the spreadsheet. I suppose I could have mentioned you have to mentally add the decimal though. Column 1 is the video time column 2 is the time since the last swing and 3 is the time for a full rotation.

Some raw data for you. I made this a few weeks ago trying to compare weapon dps. I didn’t count frames I did it with seconds so this goes down to .01 of a second from the frame it popped up at. It seems to work out better because I had some random program, maybe antivirus or something, kick up and cause a frame delay and you can see a small delay right before the 3rd rotation but it didn’t affect the overall time.

axe swing time full rotation

227 average—> 360
277 50
323 46
397 74
447 50
507 60
590 83 363
637 47
680 43
753 73
803 50
887 84
950 63 360
997 47
1040 43
1113 73
1163 50
1213 50
1307 94 357
1357 50
1400 43
1477 77
1527 50
1587 60
1667 80 360
1717 50
1760 43
1833 73
1883 50
1947 64
2027 80 360
2077 50
2120 43
2190 70
2243 53
2303 60
2387 84 360
2437 50
2480 43
2550 70
2603 53
2663 60
2750 87 363

Oglaf.1074:

Blunt weapons are defensive and utility weapons.

Bladed weapons are offensive damage-dealing weapons.

That’s a good rule of thumb to remember when it comes to Warriors.

Thanks to the Forceful Greatsword trait, as well as a well-rounded set of attacks, the Greatsword really is the king of Warrior weapons. Hammers are nice in PvP but rather lackluster in PvE due to Defiant stacks on bosses reducing your effectiveness drastically.

^This. When I see a hammer warrior I get a drink so I won’t rage all the times stuff gets knocked out of HB range just as I start it.

What they need to realize is that the flaw is not in this ability, it is in traits and how all make you gain strength as your adrenaline increases. If this was not the case this would be a perfectly fine ability just how it is.

Some thoughts for you. First I would suggest a gun for condition. The innate bleed has to be better than the fire field burst from the longbow. The longbow from my experience seems more an AOE and debuff weapon.

Sigil of agony isn’t generally a good choice, it doesn’t do any good unless you can add a complete second to your bleed duration for another tick. It isn’t doing it for sword auto attack, or your sigil. I need to mess with my calculator to be more diverse for other bleed abilities. But you need another 3% for the next second on sword auto attack. Sadly durations don’t seem to round up, so even if you have 3.75 duration, it is the same damage as 3.

Last the defensive tree just doesn’t seem very supportive to a condition build, especially a bow one. I would be trying to get as many points into strength as is practical for that duration. Maybe 20 into tactics for burning arrows.

At level 80 healing surge is 8440 with full adrenaline. 8440/30 second cooldown is 281 healing per second. Mending 5560/25 is 222. The signet is either 212/s from the regen or 3320/16 (best case scenario) which is 207.

@doctor: I would trade the banner for “for great justice”. A warrior has to be crazy not to use FGJ whatever else they do.

You mentioned you wanted healing, this could be a result of still using healing signet. At low levels it is GREAT, you’re at the point now it starts to be not as good. It scales very poorly. Get out a pencil and paper I bet the tick-heal isn’t near the healing per second of either other heal. Neither is using the signet for a quick heal.

I’m not going to put down boon duration at all, I have my soldier runes in one set of armor like I said, but I use boon duration runes in my berserker’s. That extra % on your might is very good, and it puts you over the top for 100% up time on fury. But when you get it from the tactics trait line it doesn’t counteract dps wise what you lose from other trait lines. You lose 20% without slashing power and attack of opportunity by themselves. Empowered will only give you 4-6% of that back most of the time.

I’ve drifted away from the shout heal build because the best part about it is the amazing condition removal you get with soldier runes. That still works with or without the spec.

It is the most durable spec I have played, without being a complete gimp damage wise, but you will notice the difference in damage you do versus those 30 points in tactics somewhere else. 30 points in tactics is a good marker for how good or bad the person with group support skills is, especially guardian, in your group is, or how much and where you want to solo play. It’s also just flat easier. =)

If only there were abilities that reflected projectiles then nobody would complain about kill shot ever again.

Tammuz.7361:

no its not 40k… its like ~31k or so with gear maby ~33 with some buffs

I’ve been able to hit 38k in WvW with AC gear. If someone focused on vit, 40k wouldn’t be too hard to get.

I remember you. Should have taken some footage of my fiery volcanus helicopter. ;-D

PhilKingz.4809:

WTF, man. I still cant follow you and your attitude is quite unfriendly for someone not leaving his own comfortzone.

I treat ignorance with patience, stupidity with scorn. It’s just how I am.

PhilKingz.4809:

- I also have empirical data about HB. Does that make them valid? The most obvious Indicator that empirical data is never correct is your swingtime of HB which varies although the game does not.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt that you know what the word “emperical” means, why don’t you share that data? I did say that…

SirDiealot.8672:

If you think it is wrong somehow make your own test, or show a mistake in my data.

Have you even clicked this google doc link yet? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkOEvvx5XxHTdHBCYnNxTVFidndfdVhRWUR3UmpOc2c#gid=0

As for the value of the data, testing carries a measure of uncertainty, that’s why you take multiple samples, so if you wanted to be picky my uncertainty is fairly large for HB. But it is not in the range of multiple seconds. The high uncertainty comes from that measured from the click, not the first hit since there is a cast time, but that click is a manually entered event. That it was spot on the expected value two of 4 times and only off by six 100ths of a second for a 3rd says that if it isn’t exactly 3.5 seconds the deviation is not perceptible.

PhilKingz.4809:

- If i understand you right, you compared the weapondps of HB with one single
AA-Sequence. (Btw. AA is not just AA, it’s a sequence with three different attacks.
So AA-DPS varies if you cut in different swings.)

You don’t understand me right. That you even say that makes me wonder if you aren’t simply a troll since I said in the previous post in response to a similar comment:

SirDiealot.8672:

It’s 3 HB cast’s and 7 full rotations of basic attack.

Maybe my mistaken, improper use of an apostrophe threw you off. (rolling my eyes) 3 hundred blades, and 7 FULL rotations of basic attack. A “full rotation” is all 3 hits from the basic attack. Read that slow, then read it again just to be sure.

PhilKingz.4809:

See below:

- I repeat:
Attacks———-damage—/—dps—/
only basic————851—/—389—/
hundred blades—2030—/—615—/
There, you not just tested the swing time, but the damage. So you need steady weapons. In addition the quotient of dps and the damage (measured in what? Swings? time? Cars?) is not the same. Means for example those 851 cannot induce 389 dps over the time of HB when 2030 induces 615 dps.

I didn’t say I tested anything there. I plugged my tested average 2.36 swing speed into values provided by the original poster, along with the other corrections I already made in my previous post.

Or more specifically I simply said, and requoted for you in my last post:

SirDiealot.8672:

Going back to the OP’s chart

In case you’re not a troll, and an even greater imbecile than I can imagine, so you’re just unable to find the original post by clicking the 1 at the top of the page. Here is his chart:

Mell.4873:

Attacks———-damage—/—dps—/—total dps—/
total basic————851—/—607—/—607+-/
hundred blades—2030—/—580—/—130—/
whirlwind attack-1036—/—4144—/—450+-/

PhilKingz.4809:

Maybe this was just a hypothecial example from you and i didnt get it. Another hint why HB cannot have a casttime of 3,5s is simply that the castbar has exactly 3,5s in programcode, but there are still starting animations, also endanimations which are performed independent.

No maybe about it, except it was an edited hypothetical example and explained as such. I even quoted it for you, so I hope you didn’t miss it this time. Here is the OP explaining it for you:

Mell.4873:

the warriors dps based on the skill description

Here is the OP explaining his math:

Mell.4873:

Its basicly damage / caste time * vuln
basic attack 851 / 1.5 * 1.07 = 607
hundred blades 2030 / 3.5 * 1 = 580

As for the animations, I measured from the moment the damage number popped up from a hit except for the start of HB where I measured from the click (as I said earlier in this post).

PhilKingz.4809:

So i just wanted to understand what you’re talking about, nothing else. Ignore this post if you like.

It’s a good troll, if that’s what it is. You give me just enough hope you are someone who, if he gets just enough scorn, maybe I can make you angry or curious enough that you learn how to identify information for yourself. Then, ask questions that make you look informed and deserving of additional information, not stupid and ignorant of information already provided.

If your next post is this inane I will take your advice and ignore it though.

PhilKingz.4809:

I dont know how you’ve tested, but it seems you didnt use steady weapons.

I tested weapon swings. Maybe you should try reading a post because I started mine by quoting myself.

SirDiealot.8672:

One last note I would like to toss in there. This is all just math using just the listed numbers. There are some small pauses in auto attack and such that might be beneficial to weed out just what is going on time wise. Maybe I’ll fraps it and look at it closely. :P

Then started my new post saying that…

SirDiealot.8672:

I got bored this afternoon and did just that. Here is the data result.

PhilKingz.4809:

What is this?

Attacks———-damage—/—dps—/
only basic————851—/—389—/
hundred blades—2030—/—615—/

It is…

SirDiealot.8672:

Going back to the OP’s chart

Just like I said.

PhilKingz.4809:

How many basic attacks is this? And Which one’s? Slices, Swings, Brutal Strikes?

It is an amended version of…

Mell.4873:

the warriors dps based on the skill description

…that was in the original post.

PhilKingz.4809:

I guess this is one sequence of basic attacks against one cast of hundred blades, since the quotient of damage and dps is not the same. But if it’s like i said, what do you want to prove? You said “it should be more like this!” But actually not, ‘cause you wanna compare the damage of one HB with the Damage of AA’s you can perform while casting HB.

No, it is the result of using the OP’s formula and applying my experimental data from:

SirDiealot.8672:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkOEvvx5XxHTdHBCYnNxTVFidndfdVhRWUR3UmpOc2c#gid=0
I should have done the last 2 basic rotations, but I was looking at HB not so much basic attack. The basic attack result though is more relevant to proving the OP wrong, and has more overall data to support it anyway.

If you can’t access this, you should say something. The allowances should let people view it though. It’s 3 HB cast’s and 7 full rotations of basic attack.

PhilKingz.4809:

I also disagree that HB has the animationlength that’s described in the tooltip, although i can assure you that the deviation from tooltip description and realcasting time is much bigger in case of AA than HB. Therefore you’re right with you approximations.

Again, that is what…

SirDiealot.8672:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkOEvvx5XxHTdHBCYnNxTVFidndfdVhRWUR3UmpOc2c#gid=0

…is. It doesn’t matter if you disagree or not. I have empirical evidence that HB is accurate, basic attack is not. Your opinion means squat next to that. If you think it is wrong somehow make your own test, or show a mistake in my data.

SirDiealot.8672:

One last note I would like to toss in there. This is all just math using just the listed numbers. There are some small pauses in auto attack and such that might be beneficial to weed out just what is going on time wise. Maybe I’ll fraps it and look at it closely. :P

I got bored this afternoon and did just that. Here is the data result.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkOEvvx5XxHTdHBCYnNxTVFidndfdVhRWUR3UmpOc2c#gid=0
I should have done the last 2 basic rotations, but I was looking at HB not so much basic attack. The basic attack result though is more relevant to proving the OP wrong, and has more overall data to support it anyway.

Going back to the OP’s chart it should look more like this (which is more like what I think people would have expected):

Attacks———-damage—/—dps—/
only basic————851—/—389—/
hundred blades—2030—/—615—/

TLDR:
3 basic attack takes about 2.36 seconds not 1.5 like it states it should and does less dps than HB.
HB takes about the 3.5 seconds as would be expected from the ability description.

In an effort to debunk this guy’s numbers I confirmed that he has in fact included the final damage in HB and the 3rd hit in basic attack. The problem is he takes each attack as an island, applying the vulnerability to basic attack but not to HB. I will calculate his damage to show he included final hits, then fix the errors.

His numbers:
Attacks———-damage—/—dps—/—total dps—/
total basic————851—/—607—/—607+-/
hundred blades—2030—/—580—/—130—/
whirlwind attack-1036—/—4144—/—450+-/

The damage of the 3rd auto attack is about 1.286 times what the first 2 do. Using that we can find his auto attack is: 259+259+333. Adding in the vulnerability, I’m not sure what spec he used to calculate but you should have at least 20 points in strength for a GS, with that his vulnerability for only using basic attack should be 8%: 851*1.08/1.5=613dps

The damage of HB without the final strike is about 1.91 times the damage of all three auto attacks added together. Using that 851*1.91=1625 The final strike is exactly 1/4 of HB damage. So we get 1625/4=406. (I know this number doesn’t line up with his exactly, but it is close enough to fit his number.)
This is where we differ, you will NEVER just hundred blade. You also auto attack, with 100% up time you can maintain a 6 stack of vulnerability while also doing HB. That changes his formula to: 2030*1.06/ 3.5 = 615dps

But those are still so close. Isn’t it just easier to just auto attack? WAIT WE FORGOT SOMETHING! Forceful greatsword’s might buff! This is where HB shines. It clearly stacks it faster and utilizes a 5 second buff better. 9 attacks in 3.5 seconds vs basic 7. If you’re running quickness it will be even more.

Combine that with sticking and moving, your bleeds, other people applying vulnerability… well… Use the result is you should use your HB. But I think most people knew that anyway.

One last note I would like to toss in there. This is all just math using just the listed numbers. There are some small pauses in auto attack and such that might be beneficial to weed out just what is going on time wise. Maybe I’ll fraps it and look at it closely. :P

KazNaka.4718:

I run full berserker gear with ruby orbs,
20/30/0/0/20 using gs and rifle:
20 – zerker’s power and slashing power
30 – rending strikes, forceful gs, furious
20 – heigtened focus and sig mastery

I get adrenaline really easily with crits, switch to rifle to pop my kill shot and volley, switch back to gs and easily regain full adrenaline, rinse and repeat. This is also good in dungeons. When I’m taking too much hits with melee, just switch to rifle and still deal decent damage.

also, between 48s-cd sig of rage and FGJ, I can practically keep fury up for that +20% crit.

^This is pretty much what I use. I’ve tried a few different specs, shouts, power, defensive. I eventually realized that tree is more about compensating for other players than carrying my own weight. The heals are great from a warrior perspective, but not that astounding compared to what other classes can feed you with baseline abilities or “must have” trait lines, instead of you spending 30 points in an otherwise lackluster tree.

A few months back the group I ran with was a guardian 2 wars and a necro friend of mine, we would pug the 5th usually. He used to say how he felt kind of useless compared to the damage the 2 warriors were doing but we always told him he was indispensable with all the group support he did. When he rolled a guardian and had to deal with bad necros he told me “I see what you were talking about now!”. If people don’t want to play as a group and help you out, kite with your gun.

Sleepy really has the right of it. Blow your horn run for run speed and dps buffs, hit him with the birds, then run. If anything just put protect me on your bar so you have more time to run in circles while the rest of the group solves your problem for you. You should never be by yourself in WvW, and there are people better able to deal with thieves. A nearby warrior should be more than happy to bulls charge and hb for you.

Spvp is a different story, there go a condition and trap build, its a bit more close in fighting style which doesn’t lend itself as well to WvW. But on the other hand maybe it would be fun to see 20 people walk into your traps. Just don’t die resetting them. =)

I like to respond to ignorance with equal ignorance. Pick the power ability(ies) of the QQer class and ask if they will agree not to use it you won’t use HB. I’ve asked a number of mesmers if they would agree not to use illusions I wouldn’t use HB.

I think this may be a server thing. I see many many charr females on crystal desert. It is obviously weighted male, but I rarely go far in LA without seeing someone playing a fluffy tail.

I agree on the attack speed thing, but I also think that is also what leads to the confusion on LB dps. Since so many are using their SBs and the vast bulk of their dps is their 1 attack and the bleed it applies they get used to that idea. Your damage is from your 1 attack everything else is gravy. LB dps is weighted more in the 2 (rapid fire) attack. If you do nothing but push your 1 and 2 buttons, its going to be seven 1 shots to ten 2 shots. Mix in your 345 abilities where appropriate and the weight of 1 goes down even further.

If you mention that using the SB to the fullest potential, you need to be behind the target, don’t forget you also need to have the LB at a max range to pretty much TRY to match SB’s damage output. More often than not, you’ll be hard pressed to have such luxury. Good luck trying to solo in Orr, or PVP with the LB. A ranger with a LB in PVP is pretty much free food—-its too slow, people will zerg you. Its only good role is in WvW or tagging mobs with barrage while loot farming.

So pretty much exactly what I said… Except the solo Orr part. I’m not sure what you’re doing wrong but 1 volley of rapid fire takes things down to 20-30% by itself.

Unless you are rolling in money or still in greens I wouldn’t swap. I don’t think there is a whole lot of difference pve, but I do think the longbow is far underrated by most. I think most are just bad and not using their rapid fire with zephyr’s speed which both increases damage output and lowers the effective cooldown.

I don’t get the ultra short bow love honestly. It IS good, don’t get me wrong. But it comes with some many “you should bes”. Like you should be closer for max effect of poison volley. And you should be behind your target, which is truly harder and more hazardous than it sounds. Your potential damage should be higher, provided everything is perfect for you and you don’t mind running in circles. Yeah, I like the point and shoot of a longbow thanks. =)

In pve really you have a simple job. Stand back, and rotate your hunter’s shot → rapidfire/zephyr combo as often as possible. Mix in barrage if you aren’t forced to move too much. Knock back stragglers that leave the melee pile or interrupt baddies doing bad things.

A long bow is the king of WvW. Why? Because WvW is not about 1v1. You’ve seen the roaming bands of bot rangers. Ever wonder why they use longbows? In large groups it is truly king. If you are fighting in a groups much under 5v5 you are doing it wrong. Longbow is range, burst, support, AOE goodness. If you love assaulting or defending walls a longbow is just better. At everything.

Now if you like structured using a longbow will get you murdered and poop smeared on your face in the shape of an L. If you try it, make an alt named “free kill” just to keep the theme going. The few places where sniping is effective just don’t balance out how badly melee, especially thieves, will rock you.

I found this post looking to juice my flamethrower. It helped some, though I am still not impressed by what my engineer brings to the table without spamming grenades, which I don’t find particularly fun. =[

I do question your rune choice though: Why flame legion over strength? It is more reliable on the 5% bonus damage. And if your build hinges on stacking extra might, the 20% duration increases that, plus juggernaut will maintain an extra stack. You lose the 15% burn duration, but I think incendiary powder is a smarter choice anyway and more reliable to keep burning active on your target(s).

Could simply be added to the various yells you do with battle roar.

Your charr may be in his underwear, which is a bit scary. But I had an armored skirt I wore for awhile, and I noticed something was missing when I jumped into some water and the skirt lifted. Now that was scary.

http://imageshack.us/a/img835/2451/whatwegot.jpg
What we want vs what we got. =[