Guild Wars 2

Kyosji.8961:

The only MMORPG I have ever played that had an end game was Star Wars Galaxies. That was only because your professions were actual professions. I remember having a doctors office by the tuskan fort. I would sell buffs and heal wounds, and made a good fortune on it. I was well known on the server for it as well, just like certain musicians and dancers were well known for what they did. I also remember that if you wanted the best weapons this side of the galaxy, you shopped at Froxx’s.

Every game I’ve ever played other than that was just a grind out, and the only ‘end-game’ were expansions.

Oh, such fond memories of SWG!! Among other details, I remember all the work and planning you had to do to prepare an expedition to the unknown (supplies, ammo…), the political and economical scope (run by the players themselves), things like you had to milk and grow your own mount (you could even prepare bizarre drinks and even posions using your mount’s milks)… Possibilities, possibilities, millions of possibilities in a real virtual world (until SEO screw it up to attract WoW kiddies…).

One of the things that SWG (and Ultima Online, and EVE, and AC…) showed us is that the only viable way for a MMORPG’s long term sustainability is:

- Give as many possibilities and freedom of choice to the players in the way they interact with the others (including open world PvP), with their own characters and with the world.

- Create a world which is lore-rich and with great capacity of interaction (personal history in a MMORPG is an obscenity as your character’s history should be his/her biography in the virtual world, in this sense a mechanic like a personal diary with all your adventures registered in it would be a win. (Instanced) Personal history only serves to cater to the carebears (who have a lot of responsibility in the dumbing down of the genre) and their logical evolution, the solo players (I insist in that some people should never have started playing MMORPGs in the first place, their impact has been atrocious)).

- Player run economy and politics.

- Give the outstanding players the possibility of acting like Dungeon Masters (design their own content).

- The content must be challenging in order to promote socialization and dependance among community members (people must need each other and, after all, one of the main reasons one comes back to a MMORPG is the community. On the other hand, catering to the “Han-Solos” is never gonna be a solid long-time investment).

Of course, I’m talking real MMORPG stuff in the sense of a real virtual world, and in order to make this work you need an imaginative playerbase with a penchant for real challenge and brain stimulation.

The (apparently commercially succesful) alternative is to create a dumb arcade under the MMORPG acronym where you mash the same rotas in scripted fights with slightly small variations (like following steps in a cooking recipee) in a pure hamster-wheel dance under the sensation of progression (your gear numbers increase just to go back to the position you were originally in, creating power creep in the process..). A lot of people find this model the paramount of strategy, I find it an insult to intelligence. By the way, WoW is been the only game that has succeded in this design model, right? (anyhow, they keep making clones of it…).

Well, as I said, I’ve taken my decission: themeparkers to your hamster wheel, bon voyage and look forward to not come across your breed never ever again. True RPs and sandboxers will have some joy in the near future (hope they won’t screw those promising games as SOE did though)

Amra.6028:

Let’s not go this far already. GW2 is young and does not seem to have a clear direction, they got their feedback to this progression failure, so we’ll see what comes along.
If not, ArcheAge, Black Desert…

The fact that I still read the forums every now and then proves that I’ve not lost all hope

Let’s begin saying that what the unwashed masses understand by “end-game” and “leveling-process” are nothing more than words for a bad game design. Unfortunately, the commercial success of WoW (41% of the MMORPG market share) made that these concepts were taken as law by the illiterate gamers that had no clue of how things were in the pre-WoW era (WoW easyness, linear and hand-holding design dragged an unimaginative and arcade-fond audience that was alien to the original complexity of the genre and even to the pure RPG concept).

Anyway, GW2’s designers put it clear through their Manifesto and media statements that they wanted to break with this mold, making “all the game as end-game” and retaking the concept of a virtual, living world. In essence, it sounded as if GW2 was to be a themepark-sandbox crossover or, at least, an extremely unlinear themepark.

GW2’s designers made two fatal mistakes a/o design decission that buried the “all game is end-game” and “virtual, living world” concepts:

- They nerfed the difficulty in the betas, due to cries of the impatient, unskilled crowd (why do this people play MMORPGs is a mystery to me).

- They introduced “vertical progression” and “power creep” in november, (possibly) due to the pressure of the WoW brainwashed crowd a/o their mother company, EXON.

Having said this, it’s moment to give the OP a simple answer, as she/he deserves: dear OP, the current endgame (forsake this word!) of this game is a decaffeinated version of WoW’s, nothing new to be seen.

Personally, I’ve taken my lesson: I’m not touching a themepark never, ever again, no matter how they advert them as “free-form”, “not-linear”… At the end of the day all themeparks, by their very design, result in an over-simplistic, petty, mind-numbing experience, in accordance with the sort of mainstream clientele they use to drag.

Good news for the sandboxers and RPers who may want to join along the “resistance” and run away from this general tide of MMORPG stupidity: We have a handful of very promising, AAA titles in the horizon, one of them by CCP itself

VOLKON.1290:

They could have chose something different. They didn’t. They added one more level to get horizontal from. No one denies this one last tier is vertical. Expanding in the future within this tier, as they’ve stated, is horizontal. New tiers with more power… should that happen they’ll likely lose me as well. (I’ll still play, but be grumpy.)

I appreciate the italicized irony however. Made me giggle.

Fair enough, I see we’ve reached some common ground here. I hope you’re right and they clarify ASAP that this is the last tier and also explain how they’re gonna fix all the balance mess they’ve caused (8% at the moment, could get to 20-30% minimum if the whole “power creeped” new tier-set gets implemented).

I’m not too hopeful though, but that’s a matter of faith

VOLKON.1290:

Yikes.

They simply felt the need to add a layer of progression to fill the time gap that exists between getting exotics (next to no time these days) and legendaries. Exotics still are the big deal… legendary gear is only available as a ring and back piece and serve to allow deeper delving into Fractals. There’s no treadmill, simply a new tier with new horizontal progression possibilities that will, in fact, prevent a future treadmill from taking hold.

Relax. It’ll be ok.

Again, you’re puking their PR BS before even chewing it. Following your logic (time gap to fill) they could have added another -really cool- cosmetic tier with different same-level stats combinations and effects (lighting, fire, poison, whatever…) – anyway, we had the Mystic Forge and precursors to fill that “time gap”…

On the contrary, the introduced a new tier WITH addition of stats —> Vertical Progression.

Again: you don’t want to understand (denial) or you can’t understand.

Regards

@ Volkon

Dude/dudette, I apreciatte you being positive and enthusiastic about the game. But still you don’t make sense. You keep playing with semantycs, misusing concepts and displaying incorrect data.

Vertical Progression (AKA stats addition on gear, ergo more power for the “new gear” wielder) is already implemented in the game as is power creep, the unbalance impacting open world, pvp, crafting… at this very moment. There is not middle term. Same thing for infusions, their stats (off/def/omni), their impact is gonna be felt in the open-world (check the info!).

Also, they’ve made pretty clear in their statements that this is just the beginning – personally, keep some faith that they’ll revert the changes, reason because I still post on the forums…

I could agree if you said “I love the change because I’m fond of vertical progression”. What I cannot agree with is self-denial a/o logic-myopia.

VOLKON.1290:

It’s still horizontally based progression. Yes, they’ve added a tier between exotics and legendaries to fill a time-to-acquire gap, but they’re beautifully positioned now to expand laterally in the future with additional sets of ascended gear, introducing legendary gear (and more sets of legendary in the future) as well as adding new infusions to customize ascended (and legendary) gear down the road. Here’s how I see it now, and may ANet smack me with the Hammer of Idiocy if I’m wrong

With all due respect: This statement is contradictory in the extreme. (bold is mine)

I suspect that either you havn’t put too much thought into it or you just have no clue on what you’re talking about.

notebene.3190:

Tusuri.3178:

First: you are mistaking casuals with noobs.

Well, that’s a whole other argument.

I’m ‘casual’ in my play style. I have been playing for a lot of years. I have over the years had (or found) a lot of time to play. I don’t care for elitism. I don’t care to be told how to play, what to wear, what my stats should be, how I should be spec’d, at what precise second I have to press 3, what my rotation should be, or the mentality of those that go along with it. I don’t really care what sort of label you want to put on it, I don’t like to be around people like that.

So, I’m just ‘guessing’ here, you’d probably call me a noob besides a casual.

But on the other hand, I play a lot, so I’m able to gather lots of resources and do ‘some’ things that people who only play an hour or two a night can do, so now what am I?

Yet, I still only have 21 gold. All the time that I’ve played, that’s all I have. I haven’t bought ‘that’ much on the TP. Most of my purchases were pre-bot removal, when prices were reasonable. I made my own Exotics, that kept my outflow down. I don’t see, even with my /age, how people have 100s of gold? I guess they aren’t crafters? I’m a resource hoarder. As soon as I get all my crafting up and don’t need resources any more, I’ll start selling them.

So what does that make me in your eyes?

Labels are dangerous things.

What I see is that you don’t like snobs (me neither), you consider yourself a noob (which is the equivalent of “not too competitive” player, to put it in a friendly manner) and that you play a lot (hardcore gamer by the time you invest), although you’re not a farmer/grinder neither pull too much from your Credit Card by the amount of gold you have (a thing that imo honours you).

Just to clarify one point: casual/hardcore terms are usually used in relation with the amount of TIME you commit to a particular game. Which are as valid as any etiquettes can be (don’t forget that we (EU and USA at least) live in a rationalistic culture that is fond of clasifying and putting etiquettes ).

((EDIT: typos))

No, it doesn’t reflect the Manifesto since the implementation of “Stats-addition gear-progression” model AKA Vertical Progression. The consequences are:

- Official end for the Horizontal Progression statement in the Manifesto.
- Official end for the “all the game is the end-game” statement in the Manifesto.

ANet has opted for the lamest possible form of progression. This is because there’s no such thing as “progression” in the “Stats Addition based” model as your gear stats are always aligned with the mobs’ stats. It’s an illusion, smoke and mirrors. The counterback is that it creates serious unbalance both in the open world and in pvp, makes content obsolete and linearizes the game experience, making it more of an Arcade (ala WoW and its clones) than a true MMORPG (persistent world concept).
In any case, it’s been made abundantly clear (despite the fanatics that don’t want or cannot understand) that Anet has officially killed the “all the game is endgame” concept and has blatantly lied to its customers.

Yes, it is a different MMORPG as it has taken a fundamental change in direction with the implementation of the lamest possible model for “progression”:

Stats addition based gear-progression or Vertical Progression, call it however you want. The consequence is Power Creep.

Just to expand on my comment:

There’s no such thing as “progression” in the “Stats Addition based” model as your gear stats are always aligned with the mobs’ stats. It’s an illusion, smoke and mirrors. The counterback is that it creates serious unbalance both in the open world and in pvp, makes content obsolete and linearizes the game experience, making it more of an Arcade (ala WoW and its clones) than a true MMORPG (persistent world concept).

In any case, it’s been made abundantly clear (despite the fanatics that don’t want or cannot understand) that Anet has officially killed the “all the game is endgame” concept and has blatantly lied to its customers.

((Edit: Typos))

Wildclaw.6073:

The GW2 developers did the classic mistake of mistaking “casuals” for “newbies”…

…Anyway, the way the Anet developers are trying to salvage their mess is not by fixing the open world content, but instead by introducing vertical progression to prolong dungeon content. But really, that makes them a direct competitor to WoW and Rift that are far better at that kind of stuff.

You nailed it on the head, Sir.

GOSU.9574:

Skipped.

The amount of resources, time and energy put into changing the game to a gear grind should be evident enough your feedback is not only useless, it is not regarded.

Did they ask players in advance on feedback on these measures, or did they spend all that time and energy rerigging the game only to mention it about 3 days before it was unleashed?

Take a hint, they do not care. It is their game and they can wreck it however they want.

As for me I do sPvP now, got about 1-2 more weeks before I jump the game entirely. I was so enthusiastic and supportive of this game right up until the farce was revealed.

The OP asked for some Progression Mechanics suggestions and I responded for the sole sake of entertaiment.

But yeah, personally I’ve lost all hope and enthusiasm in this game, haven’t played in a week and don’t look to do so in the future. I have no intention of supporting this fiasco anymore.

Some ideas that come to mind with regards to PRESTIGE (contrary to stats addition/vertical progression), OPEN-ENDED (contrary to End-Game) based progression:

- You unlock skills as you do stuff (gain exp) in the game. One set of skills is profession related and other weapon related. The unlocking of skills is related to the use of certain abilities/weapons. Both profession and weapon related skills can be combined, through the use of complex algorythms to unlock further effects. Also, there would be a system focusing on interaction of skills between different players to increase the group/party members’ interdependance.

- Stats addition on gear should be limited to crafting material improvement (i.e. bronce -> iron -> steel), reaching a plateau once the best material is achieved. The idea is that once your weapon is made form the finest material, skill should determine a player’s talent. “It’s not the sword but the hand that wields it”. The more realistic and sustainable approach imo. Also, I think weapons would deteriorate over time to the point of becoming unuable (at this point you could use the weathered weapons as house decorations). On the other hand, weapons made with better materials would last much longer.

- A similar system as above but directed to player’s attributes (str, dex, end…). You character improves through training, experiences, etc… but eventually he’ll reach a plateau (“top form”).

- With regards to crafting, players would have the capacity to actually “design” stuff (I mean the visuals, certain mats would unlock more visual options/tools to choose from). Also, some profession would be able to repair items eventually.

- A housing system that works as an extension of your character. Following this, a different sort of house-related awards would be implemented. Some concept for guild headquarters. Of course, housing-related crafting profession.

- More complex rewarding system for exploration. This would be more complex and would include the necessity of supplies, weather influence, possibility of getting lost, etc.

- The would be really challenging content. This wouldn’t be based on lame power-creep a/o stats addition but on more complex boss mechanics that require actual skill (contrary to gear numbers), complex skill interaction triggering, environment awareness a/o interaction…

- More titles, in-game events to distinguish outstanding players, hall of heroes, NPC mentions, statuettes/pictures over the world, etc… Make the good players famous (contrary to lame stats addition).

- A further step would be to give the really good a/o dedicated players the posibility of creating player generated content, acting as kind of Dungeon Masters. Of course, some official monitoring would be required.

- Player run economy (ala EVE).

-Emphasis on the open-world (contrary to emphasis on instances).

…

Might come back a bit later with more ideas. (Btw, I haven’t said anything that isn’t invented yet)

Regards.

((EDIT: Typos. Sorry for possible mistakes, english is not my native language.))

Anet delivered a somewhat flawed product in relation to their Manifesto. For instance, the “all the game is the endgame” concept was weakly implemented as escalation still trivialized the low level content – I think they made a fatal mistake in this sense when they nerfed the difficulty in the Betas. In essence, we were promised a persistent open world with free-form progression where Prestige was to be the indicator to measure a player’s stature – which I think is possibly the most realistic way to indicate a player’s talent in a MMORPG, as “it’s not the sword you wield but the hand that wields it”. By the way it was marketed I was expecting a sort of combination between the sandbox and themepark styles.

The saddest thing is they had million of possibilities to build upon the “prestige based” concept, ie:

- More elaborated skins, would especial effects (fire, lighting, poison…) and rare combination of stats
- Improve on escalation (challenging combat in low level areas, especial skins for Champs, low level mats required for top lvl items…)
- Extension of current DEs, arcs and sagas quests in the open world.
- Titles, hall of heroes, statuettes of the top players in cities, special decorations once housing was implemented…Basically: mechanics to make the top players famous in the world.
- Skill based progression (i.e. the combination of some skills produce more powerful effects), more abilities that would would unlock for every weapon depending on how much you use them…

My idea was to give them time to improve on the flaws, with the hope that someday the current game would be aligned with the points stated in their Manifesto. But no…

Instead, they cater to a public the game wasn’t directed to in the first place – a public which is composed of unimaginative power creeps that think WoW is the standard MMORPGs should follow and whose impulse to play is not far too different from a junkie looking for his next fix; Skinner’s Box and, consequently, tunneled content in its maximum expression. Basically, now all the open world concept and escalation are going be trivialized, officially killing the “all the game is endgame concept”.

This is what happens when you introduce “stats addition based progression”: the persistent, open world game turns into a linear arcade. Then, it implies a change from a “I want to” mentality to a “I need to” one. Also, there is not such progression in the “stats addition based” paradigm, it’s all an illusion, smoke and mirrors. This video by “Extra Credits” explaining the fatal consequences of “power creep” implementation is a must and hasn’t been posted enough:

So, no need to say I’m done with this game. Not gonna ask for a refund as I enjoyed it for 3 months, just uninstalled it and stop playing. No need to say I won’t support ANet/NCSoft/Nexon in any way, shape or form.

For now on, my course of action is going to be to avoid linear themeparks like the pest. I look forward to World of Darkness, Arche-Age, The Re-Population and Everquest Next, they look to retake some of the complexity, free-form progression and “virtual world concept” of classics like UO and SWG. By the way, I have activated my UO online account – prefer to play a 15 year old game with realistic, freeform progression and complex mechanics than a dumbed-down, linear new MMORPG.

Just to finish, I’m gonna wear the tin-foil hat on this one: I have the suspicion that ANet is not running the show any more, my guess is that this change has been directed from the suits at NCSoft or Nexon. Wouldn’t be a surprise if there had been a lot of frustrated screaming behind the curtains this last week. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if we saw Colin Johanson or Mike O’Brien leaving the company in less than 3 months from now. Their silence, the way this has been communicated and some “eastern eggs” are quite eloquent in this regard…

((Edit: Typos))

Already uninstalled the game. I’m not gonna play anymore neither support ANet, NCSoft a/o Nexon in any way, shape or form.

Short term, I’ll re-activate my TSW account and finish the story there (the lore and the writing rocks!), maybe do some World PvP as well. I pretty sure that TSW is going to be the last themepark I play, from now on I’m going to avoid this subgenre as the pest, no matter how much they advert them as “open world” or “free-form” progression.

Fortunately, the ones that look forward to complex, virtual world and free-form progression may have some titles to look out for:

World of Darkness, Everquest Next, Arche-Age and The Re-Population.

I would like to try Elder Scroll Online but I suspect it’s gonna be the same old, same old WoW clone but with good PvP and DEs.

Also, I have reactivated my Ultima Online account: It’s mind bogglin’ how a 15 yo game has better, much complex mechanics, with free-form progression in a virtual, living world. Definitely, WoW – its fatal influence – was the worst thing it could happen to the genre.

Not going to say anything that haven’t been said in the previous posts but, as a symbolic gesture, I would like to add my voice.

Anet delivered a somewhat flawed product in relation to their Manifesto. For instance, the “all the game is the endgame” concept was weakly implemented as escalation still trivialized the low level content – I think they made a fatal mistake in this sense when they nerfed the difficulty in the Betas. In essence, we were promised a persistent open world with free-form progression where Prestige was to be the indicator to measure a player’s stature – which I think is possibly the most realistic way to indicate a player’s talent in a MMORPG, as “it’s not the sword you wield but the hand that wields it”. By the way it was marketed I was expecting a sort of combination between the sandbox and themepark styles.

The saddest thing is they had million of possibilities to build upon the “prestige based” concept, ie:

- More elaborated skins, would especial effects (fire, lighting, poison…) and rare combination of stats
- Improve on escalation (challenging combat in low level areas, especial skins for Champs, low level mats required for top lvl items…)
- Extension of current DEs, arcs and sagas quests in the open world.
- Titles, hall of heroes, statuettes of the top players in cities, special decorations once housing was implemented…Basically: mechanics to make the top players famous in the world.
- Skill based progression (i.e. the combination of some skills produce more powerful effects), more abilities that would would unlock for every weapon depending on how much you use them…

My idea was to give them time to improve on the flaws, with the hope that someday the current game would be aligned with the points stated in their Manifesto. But no…

Instead, they cater to a public the game wasn’t directed to in the first place – a public which is composed of unimaginative power creeps that think WoW is the standard MMORPGs should follow and whose impulse to play is not far too different from a junkie looking for his next fix; Skinner’s Box and, consequently, tunneled content in its maximum expression. Basically, now all the open world concept and escalation are going be trivialized, officially killing the “all the game is endgame concept”.

This is what happens when you introduce “stats addition based progression”: the persistent, open world game turns into a linear arcade. Then, it implies a change from a “I want to” mentality to a “I need to” one. Also, there is not such progression in the “stats addition based” paradigm, it’s all an illusion, smoke and mirrors. This video by “Extra Credits” explaining the fatal consequences of “power creep” implementation is a must and hasn’t been posted enough:

So, no need to say I’m done with this game. Not gonna ask for a refund as I enjoyed it for 3 months, just uninstalled it and stop playing. No need to say I won’t support ANet/NCSoft/Nexon in any way, shape or form.

For now on, my course of action is going to be to avoid linear themeparks like the pest. I look forward to World of Darkness, Arche-Age, The Re-Population and Everquest Next, they look to retake some of the complexity, free-form progression and “virtual world concept” of classics like UO and SWG. By the way, I have activated my UO online account – prefer to play a 15 year old game with realistic, freeform progression and complex mechanics than a dumbed-down, linear new MMORPG.

Just to finish, I’m gonna wear the tin-foil hat on this one: I have the suspicion that ANet is not running the show any more, my guess is that this change has been directed from the suits at NCSoft or Nexon. Wouldn’t be a surprise if there had been a lot of frustrated screaming behind the curtains this last week. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if we saw Colin Johanson or Mike O’Brien leaving the company in less than 3 months from now. Their silence, the way this has been communicated and some “eastern eggs” are quite eloquent in this regard…

((Edit: Typos))

Aldracity.9463:

I’d just like to comment about the Beta difficulty thing…

I thought the general consensus was that early zones were far too steep of a difficulty curve for new players, NOT that the game as a whole was too hard. Personally, I remember 1v10ing several times in BWE1 and BWE2. Apparently some people managed to hit Lv80 by the end of BWE2. However, I also recognized how many Lv2s were running around Queensdale stark naked because all their gear broke.

The problem I have is that Anet didn’t actually take that advice. Instead, they nerfed difficulty across the board, so while the issue of the starting zones being too hard was solved, many subsequent zones were rendered a tedious mess. Basically, the challenge of combat was drained, but actual combat time remained the same. For me, this basically resulted in “Hold D while mashing 1” combat 99% of the time.

Thanks for shedding light upon this. Big, big mistake in any case. Not sure if it may be too late to fix this…

Another poster, Tarnin, has made a really good point about lack of “complexity”. I understand complexity as freedom of choice in the way you interact with your character, the other characters and the environment.

In this sense, it’s sad how older games like EQ, OU, STW, DAOC were so rich with regards to “complexity” and how we have involuted, through systematic simplification and dumbing-down, in the recent years. Some of us already have say how this is nothing more that mirroring of a society trend – no surprise we’re starting to see now the first consequences of this dumbing-down and social entitlement in the form of the worst recession in the last 80 years…

Mimizu.7340:

Tusuri.3178:

Trivialization is a killer of games. No trivial game has succeded across human history.

Trivial Pursuit, anyone?

Oh rascal, I see what you did there

Keiran.1896:

Guys, YOU are the crybabies. Just let the developpers make what they want and stop wasting their time with useless threads.

There will always be people saying “Hey, it’s too easy” and others “Hey it’s too hard” and others “Hey, it’s perfect!”. Who should they believe?…..

Perhaps, as in any legal or political process or any debate, they should believe the ones that argue better, make sense, follow logic, present facts based on history and previous cases..You know, human beings were given “logos” because of a reason.

But we are talking the obvious here, right?

Thanks for such an insightful and constructive contribution (lol).

Hi OP:

I associate myself with all the remarks you’ve made. Funny enough, I’ve caught wind of some rumours saying that the difficulty was appropiate (challenging but not frustrating) in the Betas, but that they nerfed it due to all the complains by the usual crybabies.

If this is true, I’d say it’s the biggest mistake Anet’s done.

I don’t want to offend anyone when I say “crybabies” but I think this kind of complainers don’t really understand the fatal consequences nerfing can suppose to a game. Basically, everybody loses:

- Decent players feel like they’re immersed in a mind-numbing stroll, as they were in auto-pilot mode. No excitement, no sweaty palms. Eventually, they leave the game and they leave it for good. What is worst: many of the “pro” players are the ones that get more traction to the game – they not only play hard, they usually are the most commited and loyal in terms of community support, guild management, creation of blogs, guides, etc…

- Players that are not so good basically deceive themselves and condemn the rest of the community. And the most important point: they lose any posibility of improving as gamers, which is real, real sad. Even these guys, once they feel that they’ve ended all the content they’re interested in, quit because don’t feel any challenge to aim for.

- Game eventuallly loses support and investors stop supporting it. Game flops.

Conclusion: Easiness/Nerfing/ExtremelyCasual = Lose-Lose Scenario.

Need proof? In the last decade, we’ve seen a pile of WoW clones, all them even easier than their already-easy model. All of them have flopped. So I wonder who is this “casual majority” as many whiners usually put it.

I gonna make another, more general, consideration: every game – being football, poker, monopoly, chess…- requires pain to be sustainable, requires some amount of suffering to fully appreciate the glory of victory: This explains the longevity of the aforementioned games. As Nietzsche put it:

“Without cruelty, there’s not celebration”

And another point. Many of you may think that this is just a game and that I’m taking this a bit too seriously. Nope folks, games must be taken seriously to fully appreciate them. Do you have children? Have you noticed how much they enjoy their games, how immersed they are? You know why? They take gaming seriously!

Trivialization is a killer of games. No trivial game has succeded across human history.

And just to finish: Gaming, even if you do it for one hour a day, impact on your psyche, your behaviour. If you get used to low standards, even in gaming, you’re condemning yourself to mediocrity, losing any posibility of improving, as I have commented. I passionately believe people that prefer low, easy standars on gaming, prefer them in all aspects of their lifes.

Imagine if we agreed with all the whiners and set all of the features of our life (job, education, manners, etc) to easy-mode. We’d be condemning ourselves, all of us, as a society.

Good day to everyone.

EDIT: grammar corrections

Oh my, again with this?

For how long are some people going to mistake character progression with stats increase? For how long are they going to assume that endgame is something different than gated, hand held, heavy instanced content that you have to repeat over and over? When are they going to assume that the so called progression is nothing more that an illusion, as your character’s gear stats’ increase always align with the next tier of enemies’ stats, with the aggravating factor that all previous content becomes obsolote as it doesn’t escalate?

“End-game” and “leveling process” are nothing more, nothing less that words for a bad game’s design. They started to be used when MMORPG degenerated from virtual worlds where your character developed his/her biography to a more linear, hand-help, treadmillish, gamey design. These complainers are so conditioned by this latter type of design that cannot conceive another way of playing.

Someone has mentioned Ultima Online, a game I played for 5 years after being a dedicated pen & paper roleplayer. There were no levels there, just a living world where you, as a gamer, developed your character’s story, you RP your character – seriously, I freaked out when I saw a “genius” above me stating that UO was not RP oriented. How come? You had to RP to make sense in that game, in fact, every aspect of that game was RP centric. Honestly, I don’t know what some people are talking about.

After so many years of linear, mind-numbing, skinner’s box heavy dependant MMOs, we have a game, GW2, that retakes the UO concept: a living world where any place you visit you can find challenge, things to do, secrets, etc. The progression is your character’s biography, you make your character story, that’s it, no stats, no illusionary progression, no skinner’s box.

I insist: you want this game to live forever? Easy: design a character, with his attributes, physical characteristics, psychological features, etc. and play through his/her eyes, being consistent with his/her personality. Try to avoid conveniences like waypoints, try not to rush, take your time, observe the world, make relationship with other players, design your own adventures, etc. This game provides you with the mechanics to make your character’s story unique. Now, the developers cannot play for you, neither hand holding is in this game’s foundations.

And forgive me if I sound harsh but if this doesn’t work for you and prefer a linear, arcade-ish, gamey, treadmill game you have a myriad of WoW clones in the market. So, why the complaining?

EDIT: grammar corrections.

rook.4625:

More content does not mean raid content or gear progression. It is left vague for suggestions, as Yak posted some good ones.

I have not played WoW, but really, that’s not the issue here. I have said over and over again this game is a great game, and I’m going on a limb here to say that potentially set the standard for all games, but to do so it will simply require more things to do at level 80.

Suggestions? Let’s see:

World Bosses that require more than just everyone in the area to zerg it so one may generate a "rush" of intensity or adrenaline when they are fighting it. The World Boss would have meaning to this "dynamic world." Maybe even give a shoutout when it is downed. Hopefully this would also encourage more communication between players as seen in wvwvw.

Mass invasions on Lion’s Arch (where all the level 80s are at), and the possibility of losing control of it. If control is lost, TP and all merchant fees go up, the amount of guild influence points that are usually given for events goes down, and guild bonuses and orb bonuses are reduced in wvwvw - strictly for players with a level 80 on their account. During these events, players not 80 are scaled up (as seen as wvwvw) so they play a role in defending LA. If won, all players that participate receive gems, rare items/skins, wvwvw buffs, open for more suggestions, etc.

Master fights. Are you truly an expert at your profession? Duel one versus one with the master profession and be rewarded with "insert random awesome title of the gods" here and legendary, rare item skin, open for more suggestions, etc.. This fight should be hard though, seriously.

Just some suggestions I could come up in response to your reply, lol. Never really considered it until now.

Oh! *double and triple facepalm*

I may have mistaken you with someone else. Those are really nice and well thought suggestions imo, in fact, some of them are very similar in concept to the ones I posted.

Anyway, receive my apologies *respectfully bows before rook*

SpectacularYak.6518:

Velvet.4678:

If levels 1 through 80 are very enjoyable…

Because you are chewing through unique content.

Velvet.4678:

…why shouldn’t 80 be?

Because you have exhausted unique content.

Velvet.4678:

The idea of getting away from WoW-like content is great and one that I support, but it is not a reason to simply ignore level 80 content.

Well let’s not use “WoW-like” because that could mean many things, and because Blizzard did not pioneer gated progression or treadmills.

THINGS THAT COULD/SHOULD BE IMPROVED ON FOR LEVEL CAPPED CHARACTERS

- Scaling needs to work better, opening up the world beyond Orr, because Orr is frankly not very well implemented.
- On that note, Orr could use a re-working.
- Some form of housing/guild housing and trophy accrual/display could go in, as a further form of collectible/cosmetic reward.
- More titles/ranks, particularly in PvP.
- More skins for everything, potentially some tied to the titles/ranks.
- More zones…the game could use another zone in the 15-40 range, and another couple of zones in the 70-80 range.
- Dynamic Event reworking/expanding on the concept, particularly in high level zones. Not so self contained. An out of control Rift in Rift could consume a zone, the same should be happening here. DE’s simply do not reach their failure states enough, and the consequences for failure states are too contained.
- More things to spend skill points/gold/karma on (new skills, new recipes, new skins, new minis, town clothes, whatever).
- A refinement of the WvWvW rule set to maximize competitive balance/keep the underdog alive longer, and possibly a re-working of realm wide rewards for WvWvW success to make success a little more visceral.
- A Darkness Falls equivalent

Unfortunately, while I expect to see most if not all of that at one point or another, I don’t expect to see any of it soon, because so much of the content we already have is buggy as hell, and there is still a TON of balancing work to be done.

Actually, this is a good example of constructive criticism and fair suggestions that don’t change the spirit and philosophy of the game.

You got my seal of approval Sir.

rook.4625:

Fabsm.5897:

Jonnyguitar.1684:

It’s kinda like, hey there’s 80 levels, but there’s no endgame and nothing to do at 80.

So its like, why am i leveling at all then?

Kind of has no purpose, and by the time you level 1 class to 80, there is nothing at all fun about doing it again.

No progression makes everything feel completely pointless and makes you lose interest really fast.

Say what you want, after about 3 weeks i got totally bored of this game, yet i can play WoW for 8 years and it still holds my interest.

Then go back playing WoW.

/wave

Terrible attitude, my friend, just terrible. Not saying the guy you quoted is much better, but some are his points are valid. I mean you can see the tide changing on the forums as it’s becoming increasingly clear what more and more people would like to see improved on a game we can all appreciate for its architecture and gameplay.

Hate to break it to you.

I’m gonna ignore the demagogue fallacy of your rethoric, but as I see you only read what you’re interested in (confirmation bias), I’m gonna put it again:

“You’ve got the breed of players that have become so dependant on Skinner’s Box paradigm that they cannot see the forest from the trees. Their first MMORPG was WoW and basically they cannot conceive another way of playing differents from the stats treadmill.

It’s quite easy to spot them as they mainly whine for WoW features. Also they have an obsession with empty concepts like “leveling process”, “endgame (read: stats chase through the mindless repetition of heavy scripted instances where you got to smash the same rotations over and over and over)”. They also mistake “character progression” with “stats increase”.

Their main motivation, besides adiction (the true carrot of linear treadmills, Blizzard knows a lot about this), is to get to get maximum experience in minimum time, to a point where they can one-shoot everything and everyone (no need to say they complain hysterically about escalation and lack of stats increase at max level). They usually play in a non-intended way, using shortcuts and farming high-experience content to accumulate gold and mats so they can “control the economy”, causing super-inflation and grief to the rest of the community (no need to say they complain hysterically and disingeniously about DR).

In my opinion, there’s little to do about this kind of players. After all, what can you do with a guy who, following the aforementioned practices, has missed the game?"

Again, again and again, if you want Skinner’s Box or stats progression, don’t waste your time, go back to WoW. The sooner the better, for all of us.

Did you know that there were MMORPGs before WoW?

cesmode.4257:

Id like to know how so many of you are “done” playing your first 80 already? Not to insult, but do you have lives? It took me about 2 weeks, playing 4 hours or so per day, sometimes 8-10 hours, to get to 80. Since the game is still evolving and players are learning, the average dungeon run takes 40 minutes to an hour. I’ve run enough dungeons to know that unless you go with guildees that know every nook and cranny, it will take quite a bit longer. For a full exotic set from one dungeon, with a weapon or two, will take 40 ish runs? Give or take 10 or so? Then theres map exploration, and crafting. How on earth do you guys have full exotics, full crafting, 100%map completion, and a stable of alts… I wonder if you play the game too much.

Dont whine that theres nothing to do at 80, if all you do is play the game 15 hours a day 7 days a week. Yes, there will be nothing to do. Youre no better off in WoW. Go buy mists, play 15 hours a day, be 90 in 2 or 3 days. Farm the rep and dungeons for another week or 2. And you’re done until your guild can raid. Since you’re so hardcore, you’ll have that on farm in 2 weeks and then what? You’re in the same boat.

I laugh at you all. You expected “endgame” when you bought this game. I bet many of you purchased the collectors… Man, you guys wasted your money. Haha…

In many cases is even worst. You’ve got the breed of players that have become so dependant on Skinner’s Box paradigm that they cannot see the forest from the trees. Their first MMORPG was WoW and basically they cannot conceive another way of playing differents from the stats treadmill.

It’s quite easy to spot them as they mainly whine for WoW features. Also they have an obsession with empty concepts like “leveling process”, “endgame (read: stats chase through the mindless repetition of heavy scripted instances where you got to smash the same rotations over and over and over)”. They also mistake “character progression” with “stats increase”.

Their main motivation, besides adiction (the true carrot of linear treadmills, Blizzard knows a lot about this), is to get to get maximum experience in minimum time, to a point where they can one-shoot everything and everyone (no need to say they complain hysterically about escalation and lack of stats increase at max level). They usually play in a non-intended way, using shortcuts and farming high-experience content to accumulate gold and mats so they can “control the economy”, causing super-inflation and grief to the rest of the community (no need to say they complain hysterically and disingeniously about DR).

In my opinion, there’s little to do about this kind of players. After all, what can you do with a guy who, following the aforementioned practices, has missed the game?

What I see here is a lot people, OP included, whining because they have become way too dependant on the Skinner’s Box mechanics. Instead of adapting to a game whose concept is to be a virtual world where to develop your character, they try to apply their linear, hand-held “rats in a box” mindset to the game.

Again, if you want stats progression through a linear treadmill, you got WoW, you got Rift, you got LOTR, you got SWTOR (which is like WoW for bads and the mentally handicapped), and, well, you got like a myriad of WoW clones in the market. I’m not gonna elaborate further on how dumb is the mindset WoW generated among a vast portion of the new generation of gamers as the last time I tried I got a couple of warnings – I apologize but, since I perceive the Skinner’s Box mechanics based on gaming addiction have put the genre on stake, this is an issue I feel with passion.

Having said this, I’m all for more things to do, more achievements and more reward systems.

As Anet seems to have offered an alternative to treadmills, grinding for stats and numbers and “rats in a box” mechanics from the WoW clones, going to a more “Ultima Online” or “Dark Age of Camelot” approach, I think they should focus on the motivation factor and true carrot this game has: PRESTIGE (over the chase for stats through a treadmill the other mindless wow clones provide).

The idea is that the best players, those that are the most skilled (and I mean skill not stats accumulation through grinding as the wow clones provide), should stand out.

In this sense, some suggestions and improvements:

- I’m all for more variety of armor and weapon skins as rewards for quests, achievements, dungeons, etc… Same for titles, especially for PvP. Also, for the outstanding players you could be creative in order to distinguish them: make statues or inscription in the main cities for the really good player, for example!

- I’m all for more achievement systems.

- I’m all for reallly challenging and hard content, being more dungeons or even some sort of raids for large groups. But please, don’t clone the mindless raid concept from WoW. You could introduce some really hard dungeons hidden in the world, dungeons that you discover in a natural way. Also, some sort of World Bosses hidden in secret caves or something – maybe, something similar to The Sleeper in EQ? (I loved that one).

- I’m all for more player2player interaction possibilities in the open world. One my biggest complain in modern mmorpgs is that current players are too protected from each other (thank you crybabies, carebears and abusive griefers for spoiling that). I’m not proposing something like UO or SWG, although I’d like to, but I think duelling in the open world and some sort or tournaments in specific places is a must. I think this is being implemented soon. Also, a head-hunting system for bounty-hunter players would be great.

- Housing and all the metagames associated with it. This is one of the best guarantees for long term viability. Introduce furniture and mats for furniture as rewards. Introduce some sort of archeology as mats and elements for furniture and decoration. In fact, introduce different rewards than gold, gear and gear related skins. Variety is the key!

- Make improvements for RP. For example: /say is too loud, I shouldn’t be able to hear what’s going on in the lower floor. More emotes is a must. Drinking effects could be improved too (anyone remember when you were drunk in EQ? That’s was brilliant!).

- Escalation is a great concept as it compells you to explore through all areas without feeling too uber. Makes the world persistent and realistic. In spite of that, I think it could be improved, making it a bit more challenging. Escalation for DEs also needs some tuning imo.

- More guild mechanics and achievements. Guild HQs maybe?

I could add more things but these are the first that come to mind. Anyway, hope Anet enphasizes in the virtual word concept, giving us more freedom of choice, possibilities, challenge and variety of rewards.

“That mere fact that you don’t know of any other type of reward than an increase in numbers proves that it’s a concept that completely goes over your head. Even more so, considering the countless times it’s been explained to you.”

It’s worthless Dusk, even if you explained them a thousand times they wouldn’t understand.

It’s too late for the “Rats in a Box” players: they only see numbers and stats rolling on the screen. They function on a stimulus-reaction basis (rotation smashing in scripted combat), with no processing at all.

The OP represents a type of playing mindset, which was arguably introduced in the WoW era, that basically consists in the application of extreme Skinner’s Box methodologies to the MMORPG field. In this sense, everything related to immersion, lore, RP, complex player interaction, intellectual challenge and, in general, anything related to the use of imagination is disregarded. The only thing that actually matter is to achieve maximum XP in minimum time and to get the best gear ASAP to link it on the general chat as a proper l33t.

MMORPGs were not designed with that philosophy in mind. The very acronym gives you a hint of what is this about: Massive Multiplayer Online -Role Playing- Game.

I’ve been in the MMORPG scene for a long time and I can say that there was a before-and-after WoW. The appealing point of WoW was that, no matter you were mentally handicapped, you could be considered a good player as long as you could smash the rotations and memorize the scripted fights. It supposed a massive dumbing-down and linearization from previous MMORPGs. This was, on the other hand, a big reason for its success as the MMORPG genre was opened to the “lower-common-denominator” type of players. With WoW came as well the glorification of macros and add-ons that are not less than permitted cheating.

The consequence is that we have a pool of players that cannot conceive another way of playing. Even worst, many of them believe they are skilled players which, of course, they are not.

Blizzard played its cards really well, focusing on game addiction (the eternal treadmill for better gear = dope for the junkies) as the main motivation for playing. These has created authentic monsters of players that are not capable of seeing the forest from the trees.

Besides the addiction argument, I freak out at these people as I don’t understand why they play MMORPGs when they could be playing Pac-Man and get the same sensations. My great concern is that the new generation of ADHD Skinner’s Box junkies are putting the MMORPG industry in jeopardy, as the latter cannot cope with the former. How do you negotiate with an irrational junkie? For example, what are you going to say or to propose to a guy that says he’s bored when he basically has missed the game in his urge for getting Max. level?

Let me tell you something OP: with that mindset, you and the likes of you are condemned to boredom. I’m assure you that, lest you change your approach to MMORPGs, you’ll never ever be satisfied, unless you are addicted to treadmills for gear (Rats in a Box), that is.

Anyway, this is my opinion and, after all, this is a free world. My sincerest suggestion is that:

- If you want a linear, gear based progression game, you can find a lot of WoW clones in the market. There are a lot of Diablo clones as well that focus on the gear grind and stats based progression.

- For the rest of us -especially those who enjoyed open ended games like Ultima Online, Asheron’s Call, Dark Age of Camelot and Star Wars Galaxies- that are more interested in the immersion and open-world aspects, we have a new home here.

prodigy.1023:

Tusuri.3178:

The progression is based on prestige, not stats neither gear.

I’ll wholeheartedly agree with you as soon as ANet will remove exotics, legendaries and the grind associated with getting those. Until then it’s wishful thinking, sorry.

Again, and as I said in my post and as other one thousand posters -Anet included- have already stated, those features are designed to be achieved on the long run, in a natural not grindy manner. If you pretend to have them naow, then don’t be surprised to feel you’re going through a grind.

Of course, after so many years of linear, treadmill based gaming, it doesn’t surprise me either that you cannot conceive another approach to MMORPG gaming.

Anxiety much?

So you’re not playing anymore because Anet decided to take measures so the Skinner’s Box leety-crowd of anxiety-ridden mindless rushers wouldn’t ruin the economy by hyper-inflation?

Good riddance I say. I’m liking Anet more and more every day as the seem to know very well the ‘MMORPG community’ and, in particular, some bad practices that have been excesively tolerated in the post-WoW era.

PD: Your “I quit” suicide note is pathetic by itself, more so in a B2P model.

I’m responding to another one of this idiotic kind of threads as I have a quiet day at the office. It’s unbelievable how can people still be posting this sort of stuff.

Anet, delivered exactly what they promised. Thing is and to put it clear:

- If you enjoyed open ended, lore-rich, rp friendly MMORPGS like Ultima Online, Dark Age of Camelot or Star Wars Galaxies you will probably like GW2. As we know, the point in these games is to develop your character biography and story in the open world. You write your character’s own script, on top of the personal story. The progression is based on prestige, not stats neither gear.

- If what you like is Skinner’s Box kind of games like WoW and its myriad of clones where the approach is more linear and arcade-like, that is to get Max. XP in Min. time, most of the time doing so through shorcuts and so called powerleveling, to get the best gear and stats ASAP so you can show off your numbers and lulz-link your gear on general chat, then I’m afraid this game is not for you.

Despite its flaws (main complain on my part is that I think things are a bit too easy, especially with regards to escalation) I like GW2 because it goes back to the roots and original philosophy of the genre.

Thing is the WoW and the treadmill kids, specially the ADHD ones who want to be hand-held and inmediately satisfied, cannot conceive another, more immersive and imaginative, way of playing. In particular, and with regards to the cosmetic gear you want to get ‘naow’: It is designed to be achieved on the long run, in a natural way, not to be achieved ASAP. You grind because you compell yourself to grind, as your short-sighted minset doesn’t let you see the forest behind the trees.

As I say OP, I’m afraid this game is not for you, neither for the likes of you.

In fact, let me tell you somethig: with that mindset, you and the likes of you are condemned to boredom. I’m assure you that, lest you change your approach to MMORPGs, you’ll never ever be satisfied, unless you are addicted to treadmills for gear (Rats in a Box), that is.

Since when quality=quantity?

WoW, by the reasons stated above, is the McDonalds of MMORPGS, the Justin Bieber of MMORPGs. What is better, a plastic hamburger or a home-made steak? What is better, Miles Davis or the Bieber’s scorn? You really think Justin Bieber is better than Miles Davis because the former sells more CDs?

Listen, I’m not going to enter in the numbers discussion because:

- It’s pretty childish. And, by the things you say and the way you state your reasons, I assume you’re a really young fella.

- I don’t give a skritt’s heck whether game A sells X million and game B sells Y million. Suffice to say that -after so many years of mediocre, shallow, linear, treadmill based WoW clones- we have a feature-rich game that goes back to the MMORPG roots. Allelujah!

About the “paying subscribers” thingy, allow me to lmao. Did you know for example that the money Blizzard collects from subscriptions income goes solely to the investors and not to in-game content? Research, research my friend…

The subscription based model, excluding the one that goes accompanied by month-by-month updates, has been the biggest scam in gaming history.

What I blame is a kind of playing mindset, which was arguably introduced in the WoW era, that consists basically in the application of the FPS/Arcade gaming methodology to the MMORPG field. In this sense, everything related to immersion, lore, RP, complex player interaction, intelectual challenge and, in general, anything related to the use of imagination is disregarded. The only thing that actually matters, as in any good arcade, is to achieve maximum XP in minimum time.

MMORPGs were not designed with that philosophy in mind. The very acronym gives you a hint of what is this about: Massive Multiplayer Online -Role Playing- Game.

I’ve been in the MMORPG scene for a long time and I can say that there was a before-and-after WoW. The appealing point of WoW was that, no matter you were mentally handicapped or a chimp, you could be be considered a good player as long as you could smash the rotations and memorize the scripted fights. It supposed a massive dumbing-down and linearization from previous MMORPGs. This is, on the other hand, a big reason for its success as the MMORPG genre was opened to the “lower-common-denominator” type of players. With WoW came as well the glorification of macros and add-ons that are not less than permitted cheating.

The consecuence is that we have a pool of players that cannot conceive another way of playing. Even worst, many of them believe they are skilled players which, of course, they are not.

Blizzard played its cards really well, focusing on game addiction (the eternal treadmill for better gear) as the main motivation for playing.

Besides the addiction argument, I freak out at these people as I don’t understand why they play MMORPGs when they could be playing Pac-Man and get the same feelings.

Anyway, this is my opinion and, after all, this is a free world. My sincerest suggestion is that:

- If you want a linear, gear based progression game, you can find a lot of WoW clones in the market. There are a lot of Diablo clones as well that focus on the gear grind and stats based progression.

- For the rest of us (and I assure you we are legion), that are more interested in the immersion and open-world aspects, we have a new home here.

Problem here is that WoW and the younger generation of players made good the trend of grinding the game as quickly as posible – that is, going running through your ‘laundry list’ sets of quests like there’s not tomorrow and going through the same skill rotation again and again – with the objective of getting max. level and then achieving the best gear ASAP, just to link it on the general chat as a proper e-Pn.

WoW installed a methodology of playing that is based on linear, compulsive grinding for the sole sake of the gear, emphatically ruling out other, more immersive, ways of playing. These kind of players only see numbers rolling on the screen, everything related to immersion, developing your character own bio and story in the open world, roleplaying and, all in all, living the virtual world through your character’s eyes is disregarded. For the e-Pn generation is quantity over quality playing.

In the OP’s case is even funnier as he is comparing a game that wasn’t even a MMORPG. If anything, it could be compared to Diablo. It is actually even funnier, as he is asking for core design changes (facepalm).

I come from a generation (Muds, first Neverwinter Nights, UO, EQ…) where we tried to get immersed, to live in the games we played. We didn’t follow a linear, anxiety ridden methodology of getting the best gear ASAP or powerleveling. We usually ran in circles exploring the lore, role-playing, socializing, helping other players, etc. Actually, GW2 is a game that provides with excellent systems and mechanics for RP, immersive playing. In fact, in its design is more of a easy to approach sandbox or ‘themebox’. Personally, never felt this way since the good ol’ days of Ultima Online, Asheron’s Call and Star Wars Galaxies. Those were games where you created your own adventure, as is the case with GW2 (and yes I also think that there are things to improve and aspects I’d like to see implemented..).

Having said that, I’m not gonna drop a tear, neither try to understand, not even respect the concerns of the locusts, compulsive, anxiety-ridden grinders that have come to this game with their linear, unimaginative mindsets to then spew their ‘concerns’ and dissatisfaction on the general forums. This is because basically they represents a sick trend in gaming that is ruining the genre. How can you respect the concerns of a guy that basically has missed the game? These players, whatever decissions the developers take, are condemned to boredom. Their motivation for playing is closer to addiction than enjoyment or immersion.

Another reason because I despise them is because they represent a society that is always in a rush but it’s not capable of getting anywhere.