Guild Wars 2

Like that Beta Feature: Mobile Two-Factor Authentication ?

Ok, now I get it. You’re talking about the second problem: “Camera zooms when smalls objects are in the way”. Other games don’t ignore the terrain completely. There’re things the camera ignores, like ladders, and other things the camera don’t, like walls or the ground (If I’m wrong, I’d like to see some examples). While it might sound easy, it is not the case from a programming standpoint.

munkiman.3068:

Actually, the solution would be for the camera to ignore the terrain completely and look right through it based on the FOV.

Regarding the FoV, they said they’re not going to change it.

Looking right through terrain completely could work, but might look weird in GW2. That’s why I did a distinction between walls and decorations in the “possible best approach”. Looking through a statue obviously works. Looking through the side of a mountain? Can be weird. Looking through the side a house? The game would need to detect the exact right portion of the wall to remove, then add missing textures now and then. Which may be difficult/take a lot of time depending on the data structures (which are probably not suited for that). We need something quickly.

I appreciate your help. Although, we should continue this in private messages since it’s not directly related to the topic.

Can you quote me the specific confusing sections in a PM? I’ll try to rewrite them.

It’s well known, there’re problems with the camera. Some are a bit annoying, others are really frustrating (Full discussion about camera problems). I’d like to address the zoom-on-camera-collision issue, which is way too present and makes combats and puzzles difficult.

Camera zooms when it collides with the ground
The zoom isn’t the real problem, it’s that you only see the back of you character or a giant asura head.You want to look at the environment but the game shows you your character.

I suggest a dynamic camera aiming point:

• When the player manually zooms in, he/she usually wants to look his/her character. -> At closest zoom, the camera should be centered on the character.
• When the player manually zooms out, he/she usually wants to look at the environment -> At furthest zoom, the camera should be centered above+behind the character’s head.
• On automatic zoom, the aiming point wouldn’t change. The camera would still be centered on the point decided by the player.

Ex (attachments 1 and 2): I want to look at this beautiful statue but the camera zooms on collision with the ground. Current mechanism (attachment 1): the screen is centered on the back of the character. Suggestion (attachment 2): the screen is centered above the character’s head.

Camera zooms when smalls objects are in the way & base algorithm for zooming
When the character goes behind a small obstacle, like a small tree, the camera goes nuts. It’s VERY annoying in combat and puzzles. The game should only move the camera when the position of the character becomes unclear. Right now, the game zooms in when an obstacle is too close (yeah, not because it hides you, but because IT IS TOO CLOSE!). It feels like the algorithm is:

1. Launch rays from the character hitbox to the camera hitbox (camera hitbox -> min distance camera-walls).
2. If a ray collides, then move the camera to the collision point.

And the zooming triggers too often, even when the character position is clear to the player.

The best approach would probably be: check whether the collision is caused by a wall or by a decoration, then move the camera ONLY on wall collisions. But that can be difficult/time consuming to implement depending on data structures.

For now, I suggest reusing the existing outline mechanic (which appears when the cursor is above something):

1. If the camera collides with something, then move it (preserve the min distance camera-walls).
2. Try to draw the outline of the player (but don’t display it).
3. If at least x pixels can be drawn, then do nothing.
4. Else use the old algorithm on the ray from the center of the player to the center of the camera (we know this ray collides with something).

That should do the trick in most situations.

Ex (Attachment 3): I moved my character behind that golem. I obviously know where I am. Hidden part of the outline = white, draw-able part of the outline = blue.

Don’t move camera on invisible walls
Why does it?

Ronah.2869:

I understand your frustration, but A-net has already made decisions that people need to go in WvW for map completion and also one Point of interest is unlocked only through the story mode.

I’m not convinced. A bad design is not reason for a bad design (This suggestion might interest you). Plus, it’s different: World Completion is an achievement, the “Uber-scale World Events” is a content.

Ronah.2869:

If we count here that you couldn’t go in Elite dungeons in GW1 unless you have done some story missions. I think the idea is fairly within this specific game design.

GW1 is not GW2. There’s no need to copy it if GW2 can do better. And the design philosophy isn’t that.

Mike O’brien (President of ArenaNet): Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward.

Colin Johanson (Lead Content Designer): In most games, there’s a boring grind to get to the fun stuff. We don’t want people to grind in GW2. No one enjoys that, no one finds it fun, we want to change the way people view combat.

(The last one kinda makes me laugh, I don’t know why…)(Source: Guild Wars 2 Manifesto)

zaxziakohl.5243:

My concern with the boss mechanic is that we currently have the single large boss. This doesn’t promote teamwork, it’s just a giant zergfest (think dragons) and to avoid that, I thought a multi-boss (even if it’s several different kinds of bosses) mechanic would be more appropriate to promote teamwork, instead of zerging.

Mmmmh I’m not sure the zergfest feeling comes with that. When a run dungeons, many bosses feel like mini-zergfest. I think it comes with the poor standard mechanics. A lot of combat are:
1. avoid melee,
2. dodge long cast attacks,
3. dodge red circle,
4. do some dps,
5. keep going for 5-10min.

Claw of Jornag is the only interesting dragon since it comes with multiple phases, switch target between between dragon and shields, get in and out of the frozen area at the right time. It still feel too long, but less lame. I think the important thing is breaking the monotony by giving mechanics that force everyone to move at specific time, react to specific situation, keep an eye on nearby teammates, don’t keep the same mechanic running for too long. I think multiple boss are not the only solution, it might in fact result in tank/kite all and zerg one.

PS: for quotes, there’s an arrow under each post with the mouseover “Quote this user”.

Cinder.4865:

“competitive, cooperative (which is contradictory, mind) PvE experience”, I’ve yet to see them.

Not so contradictory. Usual raid design gives the opportunity for a strong cooperative teamplay against bosses and to compete with other guilds for raid completion. What raid haters usually complain about is the gear escalation, not something like the Deep & Urgoz in GW1, which are technically raids according to WoW definition. Less coordination can be provided by combat roles and more challenging 5-man dungeons, there’re also requests about that.

Bringing a “raid” (or 8-12 instance) experience with the dynamic number of players of events is brilliant! While I believe large scale dungeons are cool too, the 2 ideas are not exclusive.

I’d like to comment some points here:

zaxziakohl.5243:

• Each battle section has a different event, all are in a similar style. Lets be honest, people spend hours raiding the same dungeons repeatedly, similar styling won’t kill them, especially since the events/lore/etc, is variable.

I don’t understand the need for a similar style. In dungeons, there’re bosses, defense events, puzzles, escort, … it’s a good idea and it works fine. I might have missed your point here.

zaxziakohl.5243:

• Bosses would have a clone/group mechanic.
• The number of spawned bosses is related to the number of participating players.
• Example I had is Mezmer Zhaitan minion. Summons x clones based on players number. Players wouldn’t be able to tell which boss was real, and would have to divvy the bosses up to defeat them, or risk wiping out everyone.

That’d be a cool boss mechanic but I don’t think it’s necessary to face the potential huge number of players. For a single boss situation, the boss would need to be HUGE (at least like giants) to face the large number of visual effects hiding the boss and give more space to spread all around the boss. There should be a maximum number of range AoE abilities so each player can be threaten without filling the whole area. And prevent them from overlapping massive instant kill.

zaxziakohl.5243:

• A report option would be available, someone with x amount of reports in x amount of time, would be transported out of the battlefield, with a cooldown timer. This would prevent botting, and trolling. And keep the event from becoming overly difficult due to afkers.

There’s a big flaw in this. It’d also allow guild/big parties to camp events for themselves by kicking everyone else. Not cool. Bots, trolls and afks are going to have a hardtime against complex mechanisms. Give them no safe spots. When they fail too much, they’ll be defeated thanks to the downstate penality. When they are defeated don’t rez them and lock the event/boss door so they can’t come back.

Ronah.2869:

• the elite zones should be unlocked only after storyline is completed.

I don’t agree with that. I don’t like the idea that someone can’t participate because he/she don’t like the story. A lvl80 limitation should be enough. Since Anet feels that grinding lvl to get to specific content is not cool, I don’t know how they’d feel about a lvl80 limitation (ex: in early beta, upscaling was in WvW AND open world, explorable mode is available at low lvl). But I feel that a lvl80 limitation is necessary since a lot of upscaled player will face painful death.

Idgarad.6105:

If you want raids why not play WoW or Tera? Why come to another MMO that clearly wanted to be different, then demand they become the same?

Because they like GW2. When asking for “raid”, they don’t ask for a copy of WoW/LotRO/WAR/SWOTR/Rift/TERA/whatever raids, they ask for a competitive cooperation PvE experience. GW2 Meta Events and dungeons don’t give that. What’s wrong in giving suggestions to try to make the game better?

I’d be very happy to see something like that in PvE, especially dungeons when some abilities sometimes hit 10+ times in a row and fill the whole window. Some description of the abilities might help building a decent strategy too.

The way the feature is presented in League of Legend is pretty decent. Basically, there’s a semi-transparent button on the screen to turn on the recap. If you’re not interested, don’t click it, it’ll be as if the option isn’t there.

There’re probably interested players out there, but it’s unlikely to happen. The thing is leveling areas are already desert now. Dynamic Events are designed to be played with other players, but yet they are alone most of the time and have trouble leveling smoothly. Anet are aware of the problem. Allowing player to change class instead of rolling alts will accentuate the problem.

Yeah maybe as a gamer, I’ve misunderstood the game. In a modern video game, I like to see:

• Good visual and music: no argue here, it’s beautiful.
• Immersion: the dynamic event are good, voice acting make things alive. The sense of progression isn’t very strong. Hitting lvl80, you need to go a forums looking for end-game, fanboys/trolls talk non-stop about WoW, 300+g precursors make you consider buying gold, constant reminder that you’re just a customer.
• A good story: the lore is good if you dig enough, the personal story is good until +-lvl20, a nice at Claw Isle and the source of Orr. But lacks cut-scenes, too many unimportant/repetitive choices, terrible ending.
• Interesting combat system: lot of potential, confusing in group with the load of visual effect. The solo gamestyle is fine, but not satisfying as a group.
• Challenge: lvl1-80 is easy, but that’s ok. lvl80 is still easy, where’re the challenging stuff ?
  *No grind: grind in lvl1-80 is well hidden, it’s cool. lvl80 is all about grind: grind 100,000+ money for the easiest end-gear, grind thousands of tokens for the “pseudo-hard” gear, grind loads of mats+millions karmas points+hundreds of millions experience points+grind WvW+… for the ultimate stuff. Challenging? No. Grindy? Yes.

In a multiplayer game, I like to see:

• Playing with other players: was cool at launch, even though only few were talking to each other during events. Now, leveling areas are so empty. In dungeon, it feels like “every one for himself”. You can run a dungeon you’ve never seen before without form of communication.
• Teamplay: There’s a lack a synergy and roles between classes. There’s something but not required. Be the only one to survive and run with 4 npc-like players dps a bit, die and run back, that works fine.
• Competitivity: without actually playing with someone, I’ve no clue about who’re good players, both in PvP and PvE.

Maybe a misunderstood that those features are in GW2. “If you’re a MMO player, you want to try GW2. If you’re not a MMO player, you DEFINITIVLY want to try GW2”, someone above mentioned their marketing, I’ve to admit, they got me.

(And I havn’t mentioned traditional MMO stuff, just basic features from single player games and multiplayer games)

I agree. I really like the idea of playing by looking at animation and environment instead of UI but I can’t see a kitten thing in group combat. Less opac effects, a max number of effect on a single location, display red circles above effects, an opaque glow around the target the same way we can see friends through walls in L4D, a castbar, or whatever. I can’t see anything, I can’t dodge. The hardest part of the game is understanding what’s happening.

Sadly I agree with the OP. GW2 is still a good game, the open world content is great even if the feel of progression is kittened by some little things. But dungeons and end-game are sad due the reason he’s mentioned.

Gibbel.5734

Ah well 50% player left out the what ? 2 million sales ?
sounds good to me.

Arenanet has sold their kitten off working day and night on their baby they love. Everyone disliking the game is a failure. It’s not the end of the world, by it’s not good. If you want a marketing stand point, other MMO players represent a HUGE market. Those guys don’t play other games for no reason. Anet claimed that its a targeted market (cf. Manifesto) and yet is failing at penetrating it. It’s not good.

So far, Anet has done an amazing job at bringing what’s cool in solo games into an MMO. But it’s also done a great job at removing the good things that were already included in the genre…

Milennin.4825:

The lack of challenge doesn’t come from the ability to graverush dungeons, but due to the lack of interesting dungeon / boss mechanics.

That’s what i’m saying since the beginning. And I think that making the dungeons less pug friendly will raise the interest and visibility of those mechanics for those people. They’ll enjoy the game better by understanding the game, Anet will be able to introduce more complex mechanics without whine-fest, good players will feel like they aren’t the only ones who cares.

I’d also consider adding more things to do in low level area. Aside from 100% exploration that gives a part for legendaries that cost way too much, I don’t see any. I’ve seen suggestions about dailies, bestiary a book to complete, any kind of collectibles or named monsters with interesting drops. Those would bring more life in low level areas.

Woah, the one you’re talking about in SE in my opinion one of the few bosses with an interesting mechanic and also one of the easiest. Since you killed the golem and not that one, I guess you didn’t understand its mechanic. I don’t blame you for not noticing it, but I blame the game for not giving any hints about those things. Dungeons are not hard, they’re hiding the mechanics, casting times and animations. When you understand/memorize them, it becomes easy, disappointing, repetitive, carried by 1 man, etc.

Yeah, the disconnect system is really a pain. It’s not a reason not to change the respawn thing, but a reason to change the disconnect thing. Sure, the change wouldn’t make the dungeons harder (at least for people who don’t die on every encounter), they would just feel harder.

I’d love seeing more interesting mechanics too, and more synergy between specs too. But since the learning curve of the game is so harsh between the open world and dungeons, the game needs to encourage players to play properly before throwing complex stuff at them. I really can’t see Anet throwing a 3 phases boss with target switching, heals to interrupt coordinated placement right now. At the moment, the average level of players is too low to handle that. Not players that goes on forums like us and build strategies, the average one that don’t and don’t need to.

Bring Back the Epicness

What do you feel when you loot a fine (blue) piece of gear? Most of the time, it’s junk. When you loot a masterwork (green) piece of gear? Most of the time, you can’t even wear it, nor sell it for a decent price, it’s junk. And a rare (yellow)? Yay, sell it! An exotic? If it ever happens, I’d throw it in the forge and pray for a precursor… then get sad.

While in other RPG it is exiting to loot an uncommon armor, it is not in GW2. Since giving piece of gear is the most obvious and easy reward system. It should be kept exiting. And I’m not talking about making them grindy and mandatory, but about keeping what should be rare rare. One of the most iconic system is probably Zelda: when Link open a chest everything is epic, from the music to the unique item. Link never gets a piece of crap to sell to the vendor, nor some rubies to buy Excalibur the same vendor is sitting on the whole game.

For a MMO there’s also a need to keep a certain amount of randomness to keep people playing and keep control on the economy. But still, don’t make them feel like they come back empty handed most of the time. Such would be like:

• Normal content, random monster: randomly common and fine gear (white and blue).
• Group content, rare event/monster: always fine gear (blue), high probability masterwork (green).
• Difficult Events, dungeons, rare champions: always masterwork (green), high probability rare (yellow).
• Most challenging content: always token, high probability exotic (orange).
• Crazy stuff: always token, high probability exotic, low probability legendary part.
  Trick here is to make each level of rarity only slightly better. So players won’t feel it mandatory nor completely pointless. Segment the drop location to harder places to keep items rare enough and feeling rewarding at the same time.

One Loot to Rule Them

Players behavior can be manipulate with rewards. Present them a carrot on a stick, they’ll go like sheeps. In such games, some content will eventually be deserted. A good reward can give them a reason to go back. When Blizzard introduced their daily dungeon quest mechanic, magic, people were running dungeons again. GW2 can bring it to the next level, by putting a random dungeon inside the daily/monthly achievement as well kitten events in a random area.

In addition, named monsters can be placed around the world. There’s already generic champions, get rid of them, give them a name and give them a loot table with a name exotic for lvl80 and a good looking rare for lvl1-79. Max level players will go back in those zones to collect them.

Let assume that Anet don’t like bots and farmers. Reward dailies dungeons/achievements/crafts/events/whatever with more gold. Casual players will be able to keep up, bashing bots won’t gain enough compared to players, other bots won’t be able to hide anymore and eat 10 reports/min, and we won’t see 50 people camping the same event to make gold.

Cash Shop Synergy

Actually offering some common collectible in-game may benefit the cash shop. The whole idea behind the cash shop is to offer something people want to collect, something they can brag about. Take the mini-pets for example. No one uses them. Since no one seems to have interest in them, there’s no point in doing “I’ve the biggest”. Bring some in cities, plant a need in the consumer mind and sell a glowing moa 10$. Wait a while then start polymock with mini-pets and sell a premiere-special-collector-limited-edition-rare-unique-signed-by-felicia-day glowing quaggan 40$ kitten now I want one ><). Second, If people are not playing, there aren’t buying. Rewards contribute in keeping players in the game, and since those players talk about the game and bring friends in, rewards can indirectly grab more players into the game.

React and Collect Ideas

Remember, the discussion is about how the suggested model can or cannot benefit the game now and in the future, how the model can bit improve or how it can benefit from/to other suggestions. It is not a contest about who like/hate the game the most, nor if WoW/GW1 is the worst. The suggestion forum needs constructive discussion instead of mindless fanboys-zerg-fest.

From here, it’s a detailed explanation of the thinking behind the summary. Feel free to read or not. However, I suggest reading some parts if you’re going to comment.

Different Rewards for Different Players

Currently, there’re only two types of rewards for the whole PvE content, Big/medium/small chests with gear in it or mystic coins/transmutation stones/mats for achievements; WvW rewards are quite similar to PvE, except for the puzzles; sPvP basically gives cosmetic/collectible stuff; and of course, monster drops. In the other hand, there’s a load of different types of contents for different types of players. Anet designers have done an incredible job identifying what people like in video games. This base of knowledge can be used to reward players with things they’d like, according to what they’ve just done. Right now, getting combat gear at the end of an exploration run through a jumping puzzle feels a bit off…

So far, I can see:

• A huge RPG open persistent world – Renown Hearts, Dynamic Events & random monsters: This is the main content of all MMORPG. When naming a game MMORPG, it’s the feature people expect to see and where most non-end-game contents take place. Since most players are running this content, there’s no need for spectacular rewards. The important thing is keeping a sense of progression. Normal content gives common things, harder content gives rare things, piece of gear or whatever.
• Organized cooperative gaming – explorable dungeons: Players want to be challenged here. They want to master their character and show that they have. For each accomplished stage, reward them with something that proves it on their character. Those players have a stronger attachment to the character they’ve mastered. Gear is what fits the best, or character bound titles.
• Organized competitive gaming – sPvP: The character is less important here. Gear and look are still fancy but players want to shine as an individual. Make them shine on a scoreboard, give them a rating system.
• Large scale competitive gaming – WvW: There’re two things to consider here. The group the player is a part of and the player himself. The player can be given just as normal PvE: normal objectives give common things, harder objectives gives rarer things. Server and/or should be rewarded too upon wins. There’s already the bonus system, but a big chest/small chest for the 1st/2nd server upon win in Lion Arch may bring a much exiting and visible reward.
• Storyline – Personal Story: It’s all about the story, not the gear. At the end of every single player game, people want an epic ending, a beautiful cut-scene and sometimes an epilogue. Why not put an epic music (you know which one I’m talking about) and a generic, just like a movie, so we can recognize the work of all people of Anet. Modern games are not so different from movies.
• Lore – Books, special NPC, historic places.
• Eye candy – Vistas, Point of interest.
• Exploration – Puzzles: Those last 3 are quite similar. There’s a huge and amazing work on the artistic side of Guild Wars. Players who hunt landscape and piece of story wander around the world of Tyria, and vice-versa. Jumping Puzzles are a part of the exploration, they do it because they are exploring, not because they like fighting. Show them you care and reward them with a piece of art, like collectible books about the story of Tyria, collectible artworks, songs, collectible artifact, treasure maps … not gear.
• Trading – Crafting, Trading post: Those spend a LOT of time in town. They get wealthy and… that’s it? Gives them things to show in town for their genius trading skills. So far, there’re only cultural armors. That’s gear, that’s not enough and they don’t look wealthy. Bring expensive town clothes, expensive mini-pets, expensive whatever….
• Collectible – Achievements, minipets, alts: Along with challenging content, this is what is called “end-game” by many. Give faithful players a checklist, they’ll do it. Reward them? Meh. But as all collection, they’ll need to show it at some point. There’re some titles but they don’t cover everything and are hard to see. Allow people to show their achievement panel easily, show their home instance, put collectible stuff in their instance, (mini-pets wandering would be cool). Reward them with other collectibles to keep them going on another collection.
• Roleplay/Customisation – Character creation, town clothes, dyes, home instance. Some players spend a lot of time in the character creation panel, spend a lot a gold in dye and collect town clothes. But I can see any reward for looking original aside from… looking original.

At this point of the release, I suppose everyone has heard/said things like “a chest full garbage again”, “that was really hard, the reward should be better” and more recently “don’t kill the boss, farm the monsters for better loots”. In addition, leveling areas are deserted and famous farming spots are overcrowded. I think most would agree the reward system doesn’t fulfill its purpose: conclude the epicness of the content Guild Wars 2 has to offer with exiting and appealing rewards.

At the moment, greatest events/puzzles/dungeons/achievements are rewarded with a chest, which is brilliant in my opinion. Everyone loves chests … provided there’s something inside. Imagine that every Christmas you have really nice gift box with a pair dirty socks inside. I bet Christmas would feel… different.

Point is the reward system would benefit from a revamp, maybe the whole model, maybe only a part of it.

Summary

Here’s a quick summary of the proposition. Detailed explanations are in the rest of the paper.

The idea is to bring different type of rewards for each type of content. In a way so each part of the game would feel more appealing, bring back people in deserted areas and start different collections for future cash-shop additions.

• General: Stats between exotic and rare gears are close -> exotic won’t feel mandatory nor pointless.

1. PvE:

• Simple monster drops, renown hearts & DEs -> random fine items (blue).
• Group events, rare events/monsters -> random masterwork items (green).
• Difficult Events, dungeons -> random rare (yellow).
• Rare named champions -> good looking rare (yellow), random named exotic (orange).
• Most challenging content -> always token, random exotic (orange).
• Crazy stuff: always token, high probability exotic, low probability legendary part.
• Add dungeon and events in daily achievement to push people in deserted areas -> money reward.

1. WvW:

• Kill drop, simple objectives -> random fine items, random tokens.
• Small group objectives -> random masterwork items (green), tokens.
• Big group objectives -> random rare (yellow), tokens.
• Server wins -> a bonus chest: random masterwork, random rare or money.

2. sPvP:

• Add a rating system and the ability to show it.

3. Storyline:

• A beautiful ending cut-scene, maybe an epilogue, with THE epic music.

4. Exploration:

• Gives collectible in-game lore books, artworks, music, artifacts… as exploration related rewards.

5. Trading:

• Add expensive town clothes, mini-pets or whatever showing wealth.

6. Collectible:

• Add the ability to share detailed achievement progression and other collections through titles, a sharable achievement panel or home instance.
• Add collectible around the world to push players back in deserted areas, such as named monsters/named exotics, bestiary book, collectible lore books, etc.

7. Cash-shop:

• First, create a need for collectible through normal content. Second, add special ones in the cash-shop.

Yeah! It’d be neat. It’d give a reason to return to lower level area. In addition, I’d add the abilities of the monsters in the book. In the heat of the battle, some abilities are unclear. And returning in a dungeon after a while, it’s hard to remember what every bosses do.

Not everything is bad in dungeons but as a whole, it is indeed poorly designed. Which is weird considering that the only MMO that’s so close to other game types, even solo games. There’re many great sources of inspiration out there.

In GW2, dungeons are the only content for competitive PvE. People expect challenge, unique exiting rewards, teamplay and building strategies. Challenge isn’t there since pug group can do those easily. Epic rewards? Zelda has the best chests: suspense, iconic music, great epic items, fancy animation of Link holding its precious in the middle of the screen with shiny effects. GW2 has the worst: some crapy unrare items in the bottom-right of the screen, no suspense and sometimes some currency for an “artefact” some guy is sitting on in the capital since you’re lvl1. Teamplay? Close to none since no one cares about roles. Stategies? A single one works in most cases: Avoid red circles, avoid melee, rez downed players, run back if you’re dead.

What’s sad is that we can see a lot of effort in the dungeon design. Each monster has different abilities, it’s beautiful, there’s a little story and voice over, etc. Some monsters (even trash mobs) are even interesting but since you can ignore their abilities, die and run back fresh as new, or run past them, who cares? You can get crapy tokens even with the dumbest strategy/group. I think the fact that even when you invade their home, monster don’t chase you very far, and when a boss kill you, he has in fact healed you, that kill a layer of complexity of the dungeons…

Account.9832:

Would you find the game more enjoyable if, instead of picking up fights where you left them (thanks to your teammates’ ability to stay alive), you were forced to always repeat those fights from the start if you died?

You don’t get the point, dude. And again, mention a specific situation as a proof. When one member of the group dies, the whole party isn’t force to die, ever, in any game. Would you find the game more enjoyable if, when failing a difficult content, the game encourage you to build strategies? Certainly. Would you find the game more enjoyable if you are close to useless and only one member of the party carry the game? Oh wait, it’s possible.

Account.9832:

What you are saying is that everybody else should be forced to make the same choice you make (and, to be honest, I doubt you actually restart every fight where some party members die).

Every time I kill a boss with every member of the party dying at least once, it feels like a cheap victory. When I’m the only one not dying, I could ask the team not to rez to keep the victory clean, but they’d rez anyway for their fast tokens. Why do people want cheap victory? Why do people run past half the content of dungeons? Why do people afk/leech in PvP? Why do people tag on event for karma/exp reward and go away? Because they can.

Milennin.4825:

Now if the party fails to kill a boss they’ll pay with it with repair costs. That’s it. It allows the party to continue playing, and zerg down a boss. If that’s what they call a success, that’s good for them. A good team will do it way faster and without repair costs, that’s the reward for playing well, and in my opinion that’s good..

Thanks for you opinion. Well, the matter is more on the parties succeed to kill the boss without understanding it. They don’t enjoy is at it fullest because they did not understand the boss design, they think that dying is part of the intended strategies, they are disappointed of the repair system, they think some abilities are unavoidable (lack of understanding the boss mechanics, remember? I haven’t yet seen any and have done most of the exp paths), and the only thing standing between good and bad players is some silver coins. My opinion is that dungeon designs are overlooked by too many players and good players feels poorly rewarded for understanding those, build strategies and play as a group. This is one of the reasons why the those ask for more chanlenging/end-game dungeons.

Bringing a Hard Core Mode not forgiving defeated state so much would be good (but name it differently for the sake of all the GW fanboys/WoW hater out there) and/or forgiving taking a 1-shoot ability instead of forgiving death, by making it 80% health, for exemple. Though stacking vitality do the trick too in most cases.

BlueprintLFE.2358:

Hugh’s your philosophy works good in other games, but in a game that the group is only 5 players large, and there are so many 1 shot abilities (in a row not just ones you wait for a wind up and dodge.) bosses bag spam condition more than anyone can possibly have condition removals, parts of dungeons like cm explore butler path with 20 mkn pulls (half of them are elite and bombers that kb you, it just isn’t feasible here.

The dungeons would have to be alternately tuned to that style of play that of you die oh cant come back in. Bosses like gigantic lupicus with homing auto attacks that kill you in two hits (play a necro high hp, with lots of toughness and damage) not only that but the aggro mechanic isn’t reliably predicted, (I’ve had bosses lock on to me and not let to, like lupicus, spam multiple homing auto attacks on me then 2 shadow steps in a row to me…. I don’t have that many dodges!? Lol). They would have to be changed.

So, you’re saying that in your opinion dying, coming back fresh as new and continue is intended as part of the design of those fights? Basically, dying is kinda of healing spell since it’s not feasible to survive every boss abilities anyway, then. That raise another problem. Getting players to go kamikaze isn’t a proper design imo. If many players feel that way, it’s also weird.

That aside, I can think of different games with 5 man party that are not really forgiving and still considered as very fun and very good games. But I get you point. A part of the community find the explorable dungeon to hard while another part find them to easy.

For the first, the respawn/running back change would make dungeons even harder if the bosses aren’t adapted accordingly. They’d left with storymode dungeons which aren’t enough nor appealing at the moment. The second part are most probably experienced MMO players that already know to react, adapt and build strategies around that kind of content. They’d pleased that end-game dungeons are meaningful and reflect their skill and experience.

Both represent big market consumers for Anet, what should they do? Maybe smooth the learning curve so players know the game better entering exp dungeons? Maybe create more exp mode but harder, like “master explorable mode” ? Maybe tune the existing paths so one would harder ? All that is a bit off topic. Even if the OP idea don’t fit the game at it’s current state, do you think be benefit in long term?

Robert Hrouda.1327:

This is a particular problem in dungeons, but not as great as you might think. We allow you the option to change your tactics, try new things, learn new skills, and work through things to your hearts content. I personally like that philosophy.
That being said, you can spend a lot of coin to learn lessons (in the form of repairs), but that is all on you.

I agree, being able to learn skills, to change traits inside dungeons is awesome. I love building strategies in RPG and the limited skills system combined with this ability add an exiting layer of complexity to the game. But pardon me if didn’t quite catch the idea, I don’t understand how it’s related to the fact that we can die during a boss fight, respawn and catch up where we failed. I sometimes adapt my strategy during a fight by running to the previous room, get out of combat and change my utilities without killing myself.

Of course, it’s not big problem. But since Anet wants to build the best game they can possibly make, it’s worth considering if a change would make it better or not, i.e. more fun. To summarize what’ve been previously said, retrain the respawn/runing back system during bosses may:

• Gives a better feel of accomplishment. Killing the boss without being defeated means that your group have mastered its mechanics. Atm, the feel is diminished by other people being able to kill the boss without having a clue of those mechanics Anet designers have designed.
• Bring back the “game over” experience that exists since the creation of video games. Can you imagine beating a Mario game where it put you back just in front of the hole/monster that killed you? The checkpoint system is fine, but don’t abuse it. When Mario is not good enough, he restart the stage. When the group is not good enough, the group should restart the stage.
• Get people to step back so they can observe, gather, communicate, build a strategy, etc. Atm, the game don’t encourage people to do that. Most of the time, five people run into the boss and see what’s happen. If they’re lucky it goes well. If they’re less lucky, one will die. Since the other four are busy, one will come back quietly. If there’re unlucky they’ll all die. If the boss was low enough, they’ll just try again, their strategy (rush in & see) wasn’t that bad. Otherwise, maybe they’ll considered a strategy (or ask for a nerf on the forum). So far, I’ve seems lots of such behaviour, day after day. Very few take a look at how each monster behaves in dungeon.
• The down time is valuable We can see how it is important in other games, what you can learn a lot when defeated. In FPS, you’re given a global view of your mates: a better view of your strategy and how it fits with the opponents’. In WoW, it was perfect time to check what killed you, what is killing you team, read the buff/debuffs, the boss cast-times and cooldowns,… and player needed that since the dungeon designs were so rich. Discover, learn and build a strong strategy is part of the fun.

I have to agree with the OP here. The game is really forgiving for playing badly. And I believe it also have a bad influence on the game community. You can “die” several time during a single fight because the game gives you the down state. Since there’s no limit of time on most boss encounter, even the worst group can beat a boss as long a they rez each other and let the penalty goes off (only 1min). If the down state isn’t enough, the game gives the opportunity to come back (sometimes very quickly) as long as at least one player know how to do a proper kitting. At some point, dying and coming back would feel like part of the boss design.

I’ve been playing explo dungeons for few weeks with random people, good and bad players, and never failed to clean a dungeon. Good players don’t see any problem since they don’t “die”. My main concern is that the bad players don’t see any either since they’ve beaten the dungeon. In their experience the dungeon was just “hard” (which is not imo). They are not going to ask for builds, nor guides, nor strategies. They are just going to complain on the forum about some boss abilities they’ve found overpowered. Hey, they are good enough to beat hardcore dungeons (which they aren’t), if they pay too much repair fee (which is fine), it’s because it’s poorly designed not because they die too much!

I believe players should experience a real “game over” at some point, either being locked outside a boss room or not being allowed to respawn since the boss is in combat and wait for a rez, NPC style. So the game would force them to step back, take a look at how their teammates play, dodge and support each other, make a strategy, rethink their build, read guides, etc. This is a multiplayer game, playing together and building a community is part of the game. For a solo RPG experience, there’s Skyrim.

PS: The fact that a part of the game is not impacted by the topic doesn’t convince me that the topic is fine/cannot be improved.