Guild Wars 2

Niim.9260:

aphoxi.4378:

This is basically all that needs to be said here. People keep talking about the downed state like it was something added on haphazardly or introduced in a content patch. It’s a part of the game’s base structure.

The entire game is a combination of different systems. Every one of which can and should be up for review by the players. If they are added haphazardly or carefully has no bearing on the discussion at all. I know I certainly do not care at all how it was added.

Its a system that fails in WvW, imo. You disagree which is fine, but that does not mean it cannot be discussed because you personally think it is untouchable.

To the contrary, I’m not saying it’s untouchable, but I’m saying that if you (general “you” not you specifically) want to start calling for an overhaul of the system, recognize that the “system” extends beyond the downed player and the five abilities they have. How else do you force some of (what I believe are) the important tactical decisions a team needs to make about when it’s worth reviving or when it’s better for that person to get up and run back?

Another poster above made a good point about the size of the maps and the amount of running that would be involved. Do you compensate with additional waypoints?

My point about the system not being included haphazardly was that it’s existence is something that’s considered when designing the rest of the game (minimal direct heals, etc.) and whether you care about the consideration given to the system or not is the piece that’s irrelevant. If it’s built into the base of something, changes to it will reverberate through the game world and so it’s helpful to discuss the downstream impact rather than focusing on the ten seconds of gameplay immediately involved with the mechanic.

I personally think the system is a unique way to make up for the limited healing/everyone is simultaneously a tank/dps philosophy behind the game. I do think it’s effect on WvW is more dramatic than PVP or PVE and it’s weird that the state for certain professions is ridiculously strong compared to other classes, but I think the solution for that is a matter of relatively simple balancing compared to the massive overhaul unwittingly implied by suggesting the whole thing be removed.

Tulisin.6945:

Your post belies the opinion that downed state is not an organic part of GW2 combat. You may not personally like it, but there’s no difference between your post and someone saying “please remove siege equipment from WvW, it helps bad players”.

Adapt to how GW2 combat works, or play a game that has combat more suitable to your play style. Rallying off of NPCS in WvW is an excellent example of someone who understands how the whole of combat works and uses it to their advantage, instead of picking and choosing mechanics which they like and asking for the others to be removed.

This is basically all that needs to be said here. People keep talking about the downed state like it was something added on haphazardly or introduced in a content patch. It’s a part of the game’s base structure. That doesn’t mean it’s perfect, but it’s not something that’s likely to just come out of the game because you don’t like it. It is supposed to be something that favors the side with greater numbers. Pretty much everything about the game is designed to encourage groups of people to work together. Downed state also forces player choices in a way that few other game mechanics can; the downed player has to decide whether it’s worth it to use offensive downed abilities or defensive, the downed player’s teammates have to decide if it’s worth attempting to revive immediately, attack the opposing players first, or just give it up, and the opposing players have to decide between stomping, engaging teammates or possibly retreating.

Again, not saying it’s a perfect system by any means, but it’s a core mechanic driven by the game’s philosophy that actually informs some design decisions.

I don’t think many people would argue that it wasn’t bugged in it’s previous incarnation, but it’s hard to argue with people upset about having built a gear set and play style around it because I don’t think we ever saw any confirmation that it was a bug. The radio silence was essentially implicitly condoning the status quo, so people are rightfully upset.

I know we want this to be a bug, but I’d consider it a stealth nerf until someone says that it’s not working as intended.

Let’s be perfectly clear about something, Moa is not an “I Win” button for any mesmer, or his teammates but it is definitely a “you lose” button for anyone that thinks this game should be balanced around 1v1. If that’s the case you’re missing the point and doin it wrong.

Having been Moa’d myself I have to call it a “minor inconvenience” button more than anything else.

“Don’t worry if there are mesmers inside the keep.”

The “House of Glass” idea sounds cool and mesmer-y, but would be absolutely crazy in a PVE environment, especially if you consider stacked mesmers. The idea of stacking mesmers for use of it in PVP is kind of alarming as well. I suppose there could be ways to balance that idea, but I dont think Moa is enough of an issue to warrant the effort. It’s use is so situation and, honestly, is getting Moa’d anymore frustrating than getting instagibbed by a Thief? I thought whoever above suggested adding some serious kick to the “Moabilities” such that if someone gets Moa’d but knows what they’re doing they could continue to be an active participant. It certainly would still be an effective utility because you’re taking someone out of their usual element for significant period of time, but they can still react.

The stealth rendering issue isn’t Mesmer specific.

Could go either way on the clones. They’re intended to be disposable. Phantasms are just as disposable, but they hurt so people don’t ignore them as much. The problem is that there is a penalty for ignoring certain clones and not others. If you ignore the sword or staff clones you’re going to start having problems whereas you can pretty safely ignore scepter clones. The counter to that though seems to be that since sword/staff clones have some actual use, a mes isn’t as likely to shatter so quickly. So it seems like it’s actually pretty balanced to me.

I still believe the Berserker LOS is a bug that will eventually get fixed. It might have some impact on mesmer abilities vis a vis siege, etc. but I sincerely doubt it’s intended to ignore LOS.

I haven’t seen many complaints about Duelist. If they don’t have Fury they’re basically standing around waiting to get killed for what seems like a very long time anyway, so I don’t stress it.

Blurred Frenzy has a natural balance built in with the root. Just because it annoys people doesn’t mean it needs adjustment. By that standard we could remove the thief and mesmer professions entirely.

GS 3 is a useful tool, though it’s hard to use in sPvP and this is due, in part, to the nature of the GW2 combat system, not that the skill itself is so terrible/tough to use. There’s a twitch component to it and not everything is a pure behind the scenes dice roll. But, having said that, I still feel it’s not powerful enough to justify the ridiculously small target area, and the root on the mesmer in the sPvP environment.

I think a lot of people here gave great responses (and lengthy ones at that), but the reason it devolves into “L2P” despite the OP being “reserved” in his post is because it sounds like an L2P issue. I don’t like saying that because it sounds kind of mean, but in this instance the OP really misclassified the issue. All the utility used against you and playing in that way requires a very active player, not someone mashing a single button.

In addition to the scenarios presented in this thread already, that mesmer fighting you clearly had a good understanding of the class and his/her traits and player habits. Mesmers can trait so that killing illusions causes cripple and that any shattering causes confusion and vulnerability to nearby enemies. I notice that people simply do not respond to confusion with the same urgency they respond to other conditions. So now you’re potentially crippled, with high stacks of vulnerability and confusion that’s probably being ignored and are essentially punching yourself in the face while trying to chase this guy down. You ended up fighting on his/her terms and lost. People here have given great insight on how to deal with these type of mesmers.

And BTW as to how you KNOW this person is bad because they took a hit to the face – when mesmers are traited to create clones on dodging, endurance becomes a DPS connected resource, not just a means to evade attacks. If I know that I have an invulnerability skill or a clone skill that I can use for breathing room to get a heal off and I know that I have the toughness and HP to take a hit, I’ll take the hit because by reserving endurance for “clone bomb” generation is a better expenditure of that resource. Just another quick mental calculation this apparent EZ mode class has to make…

Same thing just happened to me here.

I’ll try to add something productive here. When you’re learning you’re definitely going to get stomped a bit – so make the best of that time. First things first – learn your strengths and weaknesses of whatever build you’re using. That’s so basic it almost sounds trite, but it’s true. If you’re not spec’d and geared for something, don’t try to do it in a match; you’ll just end up frustrated and not enjoying yourself thinking that you’re incapable of playing. I’m not particularly good at pvp in any game, but in this game I started paying more attention to what I could do with the build I was running and I’m having a lot of fun wit hit.

Definitely pay attention to important visual cues about who you’re up against – check out the profession icon when you target someone and learn to identify them without having to necessarily do that so you can tell what you’re getting into or what’s trying to get onto you.

After some time you’ll learn to associate those visual cues with what kind of behavior you can expect. The professions have a variety of builds, but some are the clear favorites for spvp so you’ll notice patterns in abilities and how they’re used against you or how they change in certain situations. Once you develop an idea of what other classes are capable of, you can think on your own abilities and how you’ll use them most effectively against each of them in either a proactive or reactive manner.

I’m not sure this all actually flows in a particular order, but I’d say once you’ve got the combat piece down (because you’re going to be fighting…) remember that these are point control based matches so don’t forget there is an objective besides running around chasing people down. Unless you’re strategically stalling opposition from getting to a control point, try to fight at or around those points. Learn the maps so you know how to quickly get between those points and can use the map and the gimmicks in each to your advantage.

I’d also recommend following another player around as you’re learning, not necessarily clustering up with EVERYONE else, but while learning find someone who looks like they’re capable of getting between two points without getting rocked or trying to take on people 5v1 because they have delusions of being a “ninja.” Find that person and stick with them a bit. You don’t have to message them to ask permission or make any special arrangements. But it will increase your changes for survival so that you’ll actually have time to download and process the information and see what’s happening. I mean, at the very least, maybe the other team will kill him instead of you!

That was awesome Box Face. That should be stickied.

Lumines.3916:

Unlike thieves who can only pull their shenanigans ~45s. The duelist > dodge roll > leap/swap > mindwrack/frenzy combo can be used every ~16s. That’s the CD of duelist if you’re waiting for that, Mindwrack with a shatter build is usually on a 12s CD. The burst isn’t in one huge hit, but between 4 Mind wracks (Illusionary Persona), blurred frenzy and whatever duelist shoots you for, it’s a LOT of burst that they can easily build momentum on.

If you LoS the Mesmer afterwards to try an cover yourself, they have the advantage of LoS while their illusions chase you. There’s also little you can do to peel yourself in their combo versus the backstab combo.

And don’t forget that if you’re in a 1v1 the mesmer’s pistol 5 will lock you up prior to the leap combo to get on you. If the mesmer isn’t spec’d for fury for phantasms you may have a chance to kill the duelist, though I think most are so that they can actually see some use from phantasms before they’re killed by a strong fart.

And although it was rumored to be fixed on the 23rd, iBerserker is still not affected by LOS. It’s not strong enough to kill you on it’s own but if you’re trying to LOS to get some breathing room then its cripple and a follow-up Cry of Frustration could make that tough.

Confusion doesn’t seem that effective on MOBs. It seems to me that in pvp it represents a powerful tool that isn’t given as much attention as it should be and if it were buffed either baseline or through gear we’d hear a LOT more crying than already on the mesmer forum.

I’d just hope that they’d look at what FPS games do with their maps and tailor alternative versions of the map to the game mode being played rather than the way WoW links the mode to the specific map.

While #2 isn’t necessarily PvP unless you force a PvP element to it (one team plays zombies, other defends a keep), it’s nice to see someone thinking about what they’d like to see in the game besides crying about “the current meta.” I’m convinced someone is getting paid every time the phrase “current meta” is used.

I have my own alternate mode of the game. It’s a drinking game while reading the spvp forums. Drink 2 for “current meta, bunker, and portal.” Drink 3 for “glass cannon.” Take a shot whenever “glass cannon” is used correctly.

Doh! My friend and I were definitely in the same party. Ok. That explains that one. But that thief is still a rotten hacker!

But, seriously I can’t recall my movement patterns from that night. I definitely wasn’t running in a straight line as I tend to do a lot of circular movement and strafing anyway. What really confused me in the situation was that I deliberately hit Mirror Images, then Decoy and she ran past them like they weren’t even there. Were I not stealthed I’d chalk it up to the clones less than stellar resemblance to my actual character or health bar.

As for thieves guild – do they act like our illusions in that they’ll stop attacking when something goes stealth and then resume on reappearance?

I can tell that whatever it is it’s not something endemic to the profession though and has to be something I did wrong or simply didn’t do right.

I know it’s kind of an amorphous concept, but do people understand that “balance” isn’t defined as “each class has the capability to kill every other class in a 1v1 setting?” Sometimes the checks and balances for a given tactic/build/class/ability aren’t siting on buttons 1-9 for you. If someone specs specifically so that they’re soaking up lots of damage and surviving, the balance there is that they cannot do enough damage to kill you. They bought survivability and paid for it with damage output. That severely restricts their role on the field and therefore it is not only acceptable, but the ENTIRE POINT that you might need two people to bring them down before they can get support.

I see a lot of complaining on these boards about things that are actually amazingly well balanced but since the counter to it isn’t to push 3 when you see them doing X and push 4 when you see Y, folks don’t want to entertain it.

If you can’t put out enough damage to take out a certain build 1v1 in what sound like as close to lab conditions as you’re going to get, then you don’t have the right build for that job or your profession is not designed to counter that scenario – good thing it’s a team game. You don’t have to quit – just find something else that you’re suited for doing and do that job. I can’t catch – I rarely insist on playing first base.

This is an MMORPG. In PVP some builds have to be weak against certain others and if anyone’s thinking there should be a build that allows them to stomp anything at any time I think you need to check out single player games.

Winds.3087:

Why just don’t summon any clone when 3 phantasms are up? Both phantasm army and shatter players will be happy without obvious op of 4th clone.

Think the OP’s point is that when you’re using a scepter you can’t control it unless you stop attacking. The scepter will create a clone and thus overwrite a phantasm.

I’m getting the sense that ANet isn’t pleased that a lot of folks were/are ignoring the shatter functions and focusing on keeping phantasms up. All the changes seem to be in the direction of encouraging you to shatter stuff. So I doubt you’re going to see a anything that encourages people to keep phantasms standing.

I was getting my face stomped by a thief in spvp the other night (and last night too for that matter) and started to wonder: do our invis/stealth abilities function differently than those of other classes?

This isn’t a “thieves need nerfs” thread. She played well, played smart and hit hard, but one thing I found odd is that even after I adjusted for a full line of stealth abilities, she always seemed to know exactly where I was. By comparison, when she came at me and went stealth she was visually off the map as far as I was concerned.

I’m assuming I was doing something wrong. Then I was playing last night and a buddy of mine was on the opposing team. We were fighting and after I stealthed he did he same thing – came right at me as if I were standing there with a sign around my neck saying kill me. I asked how he knew where I was and he said he could see my shimmering outline. Does our stealth leave us partly visible in comparison to thieves who seem to completely vanish or am I doing something else that’s making me visible to people?

I thought phantasm could overwrite clones but not the other way around? In that case I think your phantasms are safe. I’ve recently started to really love the benefits of confusion in pvp so this is tempting, but the scepter was so underwhelming when I last used it that it’s hard to shake the feeling. It doesn’t seem like I have time in pvp to to wait for every 3rd strike for clone generation.

@dandamanno

Agreed. It wasn’t particularly that I ever bought into some hype about shattering being useless, but I certainly didn’t think that it would outweigh the option to a) use a lot of clones to stack conditions or b) maintain phantasms. Really though deceptive evasion is a game changer. When leveling you simply don’t need to dodge all that much so using the mechanic to generate clones and combining with the berserker and quick shatter drops things ridiculously quickly.

The skill itself doesn’t seem to be the problem. There’s a very natural counter to it – you see a mesmer, kill the mesmer. I suspect the portal utility was anticipated and so was mesmer targeting. The balance to that is mesmer clones.

The problem does truly seem to be the skill use in conjunction with the bugs currently plaguing WvW. The skill isn’t an AOE like every other one that should be capped at 5 people. It’s a small portal, time restricted and based on the mesmer’s location. Recall that the portal entry and exit only appear where the mesmer is standing. Without the invisible people or flying hacks, this issue almost ceases to exist.

If you’re going to ask for something as bonkers as a 5 person cap, then I think it should use a targeting reticule and work on any surface like Portal.

Mesmers are generally not too durable (yes, there are builds that emphasize durability, but generally speaking). That’s balanced by some stealth ability and movement related utility (blink and portal). The penalty for not finding and killing them is exactly what’s been described. Again – talking about the uses without all the nasty bugs in place.

Keep in mind that calling for nerfs on abilities that permit emergent gameplay is a slippery slope my friends unless you’re looking for an experience entirely on rails.

I would classify the concept of clones mimicking player movement as suggestions. Anything related to the appearance of the clone really to me is a bug. It may not be a bug the way developers think it, but at the very least it’s not working as intended or working as described.

Also, clones taking 3 or 4 hits? From what? The mosquito in Lion’s Arch? If I use mirror images and then roll to generate a clone with deceptive evasion, anyone/anything with an AE will have destroyed them before my finger can reach the F1 button.

As for the clones doing whatever the mesmer does, I’d say be careful what you wish for on that. It’s simultaneously a blessing and a curse that the illusions are target based and somewhat independent because it permits us to drop back and get lost in the confusion or switch targets – especially useful against other mesmers when the illusions will stay on the PC and not the clones.

aaron.7850 might be thinking that since the scepter is pretty reliable for steady clone generation, it might be useful in a clone/shatter centric build. It’s kind of slow though.

I just gave this a very quick test and, um, wow. There’s a surprising amount of survivability in this because of the fact that the only time you appear to have less than 3 clones or illusions up is right after a shatter.

I’m still looking for a good PVE build that can get me through things reasonably quick without going full glass. How well do you think this would work? Never tried anything shatter centric in the pve environment before.