Guild Wars 2

Spurnshadow.3678:

I don’t think you get WvW and the idea behind the maps.

They are equalizers of skill. The boarderlands are the same on purpose. Each server has it’s own central spawn zone. Each server has a spawn zone on the SE and SW side of an enemy map. The exception is EB which changes your spawn zone each week, but each area is roughly the same. This way, no one has a tactical advatage due to geography.

Are you kidding me… of course i ‘get’ the maps. They are not very complicated.. actually the opposite. I didn’t say anything about giving any side a ‘geographic advantage’. The bottom line is that the objectives are too close together due to map size. This allows 1 large zerg to roam around until contested by another zerg.

The small maps have an enormous effect on multiple factors of this game. If the maps were much bigger, server populations wouldnt absolutely dictate who wins (like they do now). If you cram that many players into a closet, the side with the most players win. But if you have actually big real open world maps.. you can actually implement real strategy and 1 zerg wont dominate each map.

Don’t tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about, I play on ET. I know exactly what it is like to be 3rd in tier 1 and 1st in tier 2. We win in tier 2 because we have 1 huge zerg per map taking everything.. and we lose in tier 1 because those servers have bigger zergs and more of them, period. 0 strategy involved.

Bigger maps = more unique experiences, player driven strategy

I think post level cap player progression is already in the game in the form of exotics… and I wouldnt mind a little more progression for the sake of being bored…

but the real reason I am bored is because the WvW maps are too small. Unless you play on one of the top 6 servers, you probably wont notice. But when 1 zerg roams around the map in minutes until contested by another zerg… thats failure.

Anet looked at DAoC and thought, ‘that was good because people love to zerg’.. instead of realizing that it was good because of proper map design. Anet created Borderlands and it really narrows gameplay, has too few keeps and all of the maps have their objectives too close together.. this makes your WvW experience very choreographed.. when it should be an exciting unique and slightly random experience every time.

Guys guys… I keep seeing this pop up.. and honestly as you can probably see by some of my previous posts, i THOUGHT progression or Realm Ranks was the thing that Gw2 needed… I was wrong.. here is the real problem..

Map Size/ Map Design..

The objectives are TOO FEW and too close together.. the maps with current populations allow for 1 zerg to roam around controlling the map only until another zerg gathers to fight them. Eternal Battlegrounds has the correct design, but is WAY too small.. and ‘The Borderlands’ is literally a joke… talk about narrowing and controlling our game-play. The ocean in the middle creates 2 lanes that forces players almost literally to zerg the same keeps over and over.

What Anet failed to do is this:
1. Understand why open world pvp was something everyone wanted..
2. Understand why Open world pvp worked so well in DAoC…

Anet said that they ‘were inspired by DAoC and studied their RvR’… well after seeing what they’ve delivered.. I have no idea what they were ‘studying’ and I’m certain they have no understanding of 1 or 2.

The explanation for 1 and 2 are actually exactly the same..

Open world PvP is fun.. because it is UNIQUE and at times random.. Every battle should be a little bit different than the last.. and when you run out with your group/guild into the BIG OPEN WORLD ZONE you don’t already know what is going to happen… It allows for PLAYER DRIVEN interactions and player CHOICE…

DAoC was not so successful and loved because of Realm Ranks, or 3 different factions or 45 unique classes…. DAoC’s Open World RvR was successful and loved because it had proper MAP DESIGN, plain and simple. The open world zones were HUGE.. and the objectives were SPREAD APART.. this made it so every day/week was different and unique.. Also and almost more importantly.. 1 zerg couldn’t roam around the entire map controlling everything until another zerg kills them…

The saddest thing about this is…. Anet KNEW that these maps were WAY TOO SMALL… they made it like that on purpose to encourage ZERGING and to force players to have ‘epic siege battles’ at the same keeps in the same way every week.

This means Anet LOOKED AT DAoC.. and thought…. mhmmm people really liked this BECAUSE THEY LOVE ZERGING. Lets make a game about zerging.

That is what happens when.. developers that don’t understand why a concept was liked or popular try to copy it. They stole a lot from DAoC… but they missed what made it successful.. open world pvp adventure. They turned Open World triple faction warfare….. into a very choreographed instance. face palm.

This is what happens when noobs make video games… they miss important concepts, and fail. GL selling ‘zerg wars 2’.

Maybe bioware mythic will make DAOC 2, i’d pay $25 a month for it.

Well they NEED to make bigger maps… if they can’t make bigger wvw maps, this game’s (open world concept) will die. Without bigger maps, completely as it is now… their open world concept has failed.

People will play it like it is now for a few more months … but after that it will clearly start to die… Nobody, good or bad.. wants to zerg down the same road and take the same keep in the exact same way every week… i promise.

What Anet failed to do is this:
1. Understand why open world pvp was something everyone wanted..
2. Understand why Open world pvp worked so well in DAoC…

Anet said that they ‘were inspired by DAoC and studied their RvR’… well after seeing what they’ve delivered.. I have no idea what they were ‘studying’ and I’m certain they have no understanding of 1 or 2.

The explanation for 1 and 2 are actually exactly the same..

Open world PvP is fun.. because it is UNIQUE and at times random.. Every battle should be a little bit different than the last.. and when you run out with your group/guild into the BIG OPEN WORLD ZONE you don’t already know what is going to happen… It allows for PLAYER DRIVEN interactions and player CHOICE…

DAoC was not so successful and loved because of Realm Ranks, or 3 different factions or 45 unique classes…. DAoC was successful and loved because it had proper MAP DESIGN, plain and simple. The open world zones were HUGE.. and the objectives were SPREAD APART.. this made it so every day/week was different and unique.. Also and almost more importantly.. 1 zerg couldn’t roam around the entire map controlling everything until another zerg kills them…

The sad part is, Anet didn’t ‘miss’ the fact that their maps are so small that 1 zerg can roam around and take things only until another zerg fights them… they MADE IT LIKE THAT… why? Because they THOUGHT we wanted that… Anet looked at DAoC and said.. oh this went well because PEOPLE LOVE ZERGING… facepalm.

.Anet looking at Open World PvP.. is like my dog looking at my computer screen… " I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I’M DOING"….seriously, nice try.. but kind of missed the whole point

*forget about realm ranks—- daoc worked because of solid map design… we were not crammed in a closet.

open world pvp on maps this small with this FEW objectives all crammed so closely together WILL NEVER WORK… I don’t know how a ‘gaming’ company with millions of development dollars couldn’t foresee that issue.

Maybe if the people making the games, actually played good games and knew why those games were good.. things like this wouldn’t happen. But core values like open world map size get over looked when you are more concerned with the zones ‘looking good’ and having ‘epic siege battles’ …

I would rather gw2 look like crap but have fantastic map design and bigger maps, than have some pretty painted poorly designed nightmare.

Maybe the Anets devs did play DAoC… but they were bad and thought zerging down keeps was fun and made a game so everyone could do it…

lawls.

Make the world vs world maps significantly bigger and redesign ‘Borderlands’.
(Or combine all 4 maps into 1 giant open world zone.. kind of like when you zoom all the way out)
Issue:

The maps are too small, the objectives are too close together, their are not enough objectives. – This allows 1 large group of players to roam around each zone within minutes. The point of ‘open world pvp’ is so that 1 large group is ‘slow’ and can be countered by multiple smaller groups hitting multiple objectives. There are simply not enough objectives and not enough distance between each objective for this to actually be a possibility. As it stands, WvW is actually Zerg vs Zerg.
(If you time how long it takes to run across ‘Borderlands’, its actually laughable.

‘The Borderlands’ was apparently designed to ‘narrow’ the players down the left and right side ‘lanes’ . This is due to the large body of water in the middle of the map and the symmetrical design of the map in general. This almost eliminates all choice of what keeps to take… that choice is really an illusion, because there are so few objectives.

The combination of terrible map design (borderlands) and an absolute under-sizing of all 4 maps..creates a system that forces players to zerg down the same objectives over and over, rather than actually having an Open World PvP game.

If the maps were bigger players would be able to execute more strategy and server pop would not be the deciding factor. Obviously if you cram players into such a small map, and make it so ‘fast and easy’ to take keeps than of course the group with more numbers will win. Poorly designed system.

Anet said that they ’ were inspired by DAoC and studied their RvR system’.. well apparently no one that works at Anet has ever played DAoC. I don’t know what they studied but fake open world pvp absent of almost all actual strategy was not RvR.

I feel bad for anyone who never experienced an Open World PvP game before… because this game has sold you an illusion of open world pvp.. not the real thing.

Zerging is a CORE element of any Open World WvW/RvR mmo. Even if unpopular, this is simply unavoidable, with so many people interested in open world pvp, large groups are bound to get together to take common objectives.

The downside to a zerg is that they are typically less mobile than multiple smaller groups. A zerg moves in a large group, focusing on 1 keep at a time, moving from objective to objective. In Guild Wars 2 WvW, that downside does NOT currently exist due to map size and map design.

With the maps being so small, a large zerg can move across an entire zone with relative ease. With the exception of supply camps, smaller groups can very rarely capture a keep before the incoming zerg reaches them. A roaming zerg can cover the entirety of the map in minutes, making it almost impossible to flank/counter capture.

Typically on more populated servers, 2 or 3 zergs will roam around the map clashing at very specific points over the same objectives, while smaller groups roam taking supply camps and killing stragglers while trying to avoid the enemy zerg.

In terms of map design, Eternal Battlegrounds is much more suited for 3 faction/3 server war than the ‘borderlands’. The borderlands, although correctly placing the home servers ‘garrison’ at the top center.. failed to create a 3 server/triple faction open world zone. The reason for this is the large unnecessary body of water within the center of the map. This body of water creates two LANES that run south down the map. This would not be a problem, if those lanes were 2/3x wider, but with the map being so small, it really narrows the action literally almost forcing the players to zerg together.

I understand that the water was intended as a tool for players to develop strategy and travel, but mildly deep rivers running through a much larger landscape will do the trick.

With larger less ‘narrowed’ maps and MORE objectives, the ZERGs will lose their ability to cover and dominate the map as quickly, thus in itself allowing for more strategy between servers of different populations.

Instead of creating ‘lanes’ to guide the flow of players in WvW.. you should create truly open, much larger maps, that allow zergs and even smaller groups much more choice in what objectives they take.

Of course server populations and zergs are playing such a big role in the current outcome of WvW.. if you cram that many players into a small place, the group with more numbers more often will win. But with larger maps, big clusters of players lose their roaming ability and thus allow smaller guilds and servers to deploy some real strategy.

You shouldn’t of just stolen the concept from DAOC, you should of stolen the map size.

Instanced small ‘fake’ open world zones that literally FORCE players to zerg down the same keeps over and over is stupid and NOT what WvW or RvR or Open World PvP is supposed to be.

Btw, I play on ET.. so I know what it is like to be dominating other servers in Tier 2… and dealing with much bigger numbers in Tier 1.

I feel like it is pretty important and should certainly be discussed. It really is the source of more problems than people realize.

I’ve seen a large amount of threads being made regarding such things as:

Server Populations
Server Xfers
3 Teams
Server Rankings
Zerging

Although these are separate factors, they all come together to affect our overall gameplay within WvW. I just wanted to break down a few of these issues, explain why they are issues and explore possible solutions.

Open world PVP or WvW is a really great and interesting concept, but it requires certain considerations.

Server populations do vary from server to server and these populations have a direct and substantial effect on that servers overall outcome in WvW. Numbers play a large factor in WvW and rightly so, it will always be easier to take a keep with 20+ players, than it would be with 10. With free server transfers, players have the freedom to jump to a winning server without much hassle. This could cause even more unbalance in numbers because of constantly shifting populations.

Although it seems that numbers and server population have a serious effect on game-play, they are not the root of the issue.

Zerging (the massing of large groups/raids of either organized or unorganized players)…
is a CORE element of any Open World WvW/RvR mmo. Even if unpopular, this is simply unavoidable, with so many people interested in open world rvr, large groups are bound to get together to take common objectives.

The real problem(and solution) that is a common factor in all of the above..

WvW map design and size.. Let me explain.

A zerg is supposed to be a very powerful force, such a large massing of players forming in one place to take a common objective. Regardless of individual skill/organization, a much larger number of players is a deadly threat to ANY group.

The downside to a zerg is that they are typically less mobile than multiple smaller groups. A zerg moves in a large group, focusing on 1 keep at a time, moving from objective to objective. In Guild Wars 2 WvW, that downside does NOT currently exist due to map size and map design.

With the maps being so small, a large zerg can move across an entire zone with relative ease. With the exception of supply camps, smaller groups can very rarely capture a keep before the incoming zerg reaches them. A roaming zerg can cover the entirety of the map in minutes, making it almost impossible to flank/counter capture.

Typically on more populated servers, 2 or 3 zergs will roam around the map clashing at very specific points over the same objectives, while smaller groups roam taking supply camps and killing stragglers while trying to avoid the enemy zerg.

In terms of map design, Eternal Battlegrounds is much more suited for 3 faction/3 server war than the ‘borderlands’. The borderlands, although correctly placing the home servers ‘garrison’ at the top center.. failed to create a 3 server/triple faction open world zone. The reason for this is the large unnecessary body of water within the center of the map. This body of water creates two LANES that run south down the map. This would not be a problem, if those lanes were 2/3x wider, but with the map being so small, it really narrows the action literally almost forcing the players to zerg together.

I understand that the water was intended as a tool for players to develop strategy and travel, but mildly deep rivers running through a much larger landscape will do the trick.

With larger less ‘narrowed’ maps and more objectives, the ZERGs will lose their ability to cover and dominate the map as quickly, thus in itself allowing for more strategy between servers of different populations.

Instead of creating ‘lanes’ to guide the flow of players in WvW.. you should create truly open, much larger maps, that allow zergs and even smaller groups much more choice in what objectives they take.

Of course server populations and zergs are playing such a big role in the current outcome of WvW.. if you cram that many players into a small place, the group with more numbers more often will win. But with larger maps, big clusters of players lose their roaming ability and thus allow smaller guilds and servers to deploy some real strategy.

Btw, I play on ET.. so I know what it is like to be dominating other servers in Tier 2… and dealing with much bigger numbers in Tier 1.

(Another possible solution)

Increase the time if takes to break down walls/gates… it will force larger groups to either commit to taking something or to roam around, not both.

I know the title of this is ‘like DAOC’…. and people tend to reference DAOC when talking about an end game progression system that isn’t mere titles/achievements.

But we don’t want to turn this game into DAOC2, we just want some end game progression and a realm ranking system is a really good way to implement that.

There are not that many logical ways to have end game progression.. You can have a gear treadmill, which is highly favored to people that have a ton of time… you have titles and cosmetics which i don’t think counts as progression.. and then you have a realm ranking system which is a bit less focused on time than a gear treadmill and does not lead to such an enormous power gap between players.. and it is more fun than farming instances over and over for ‘hard to get’ gear.

Celes.9726:

Game will be dead in 6months tops without personal incentives to keep on playing, book it.

I don’t know about 6 months… but you are absolutely correct about this game ‘dying’ without personal long term character progression that is MORE than titles/cosmetics.

Here is why:

Guildwars 2 brought back a great thing… they brought back OPEN WORLD REALM VS REALM! (or Server vs Server in their case ) This is a concept that DAOC sharpened and perfected.. and sadly a concept that most previous big name MMOs seemed to miss.

Seeing as they brought this concept back into the MMO market… which I think is actually the core of a good MMO.. now every new upcoming MMO is pretty much FORCED to have a similar to DAOC.. OPEN WORLD PVP system. Without one, they will just not be able to compete in the market and compete with GW2.

So if the next big upcoming MMOs (Elder Scrolls and Titan) are going to have a similar WvW system.. don’t you think they WILL have some king of long term progression system… perhaps a gear treadmill or Realm Rank system…

Well… they WILL… and if GW2 fails to implement a long term character progression system… once those other games come out.. and the WvW edge is taken away from GW2… most players will leave, because MMOs are about progression.. and gw2 will be left with people that just love cosmetic rewards and then the gw1 vets.. which is a very small % of the mmo population.

“this goes against areanet’s power -platue philosophy.

/thread"- Kitanas

You’re actually completely incorrect. They implemented that philosophy to make it so there is no ‘gear treadmill’ which there is not and most likely will not be. So because they are anti gear treadmill, you assume they don’t want there to be character progression?

Anet has already said " WvW is for fun and is going to be unbalanced, if you want balance go to SPvP."

Wow, some of you people are literally… sigh

SPvP is for balance, that is the place to go where you buy the game and can instantly jump in at level 1 and be on an equal playing field with whoever you are fighting.

WvW is NOT built to be perfectly balanced. There are an enormous amount of variables that affect the out come of a given battle. It is an OPEN WORLD simulator. Meaning it is your ACTUAL character vs another players ACTUAL character. It is fair enough that they max everyone to 80.

They pretty much hand you exotics in this game, yet some people still can’t get them.. so at-least that creates SOME unbalance, which I like.

This is an MMO, I don’t know why so many of you people seem to think that ‘putting more time in’ or playing consistently or even playing better than other players should not reward you MORE than players that don’t do that. In SPvP, it needs that balance.. but in an OPEN WORLD RVR setting which is ment for FUN where NUMBERS dictate an enormous % of what happens.. that balance does not exist now and should not exist.

They have created an MMO, but completely failed to add any actual long term character progression into the game. So many of you think adding ‘titles’ or cosmetic rewards is the best thing to do… I say WHY? I don’t want titles or cosmetic upgrades.. they don’t DO anything….. I don’t care if my character model is a blue circle and my title is ‘schoolgirl fairy boy’. It means NOTHING to me, it does not DO anything.

This game needs long term actual character progression that MATTERS. I should be able to watch my character grow over the life of this game… not be done with my warrior a month after release because i am 80 with full exotics.

I don’t care about achievements on STEAM, why would I care about them in this game. I don’t know any adult players, from actual respectable guilds that care about titles or cosmetics. We want long term character progression that actually has an effect on the strength of your character.

A ‘gear treadmill’ creates too much of an unbalance in my opinion and no one likes to have to ‘grind’ the same instances over and over… which is exactly why they should implement a REALM RANK system.. to allow all of us that play WvW to consistently grow our characters.. it will make it more fun for everyone.

Read my thread called ’ intelligently designed realm rank system’.

I explain in further detail why that is a good system. Before you say something negative, read that thread.

I would rather see a Realm Rank system put in place first.. but I think this is a great idea as well.

It would have to consist of ‘open world’ style bosses.. that everyone in the zone can participate in killing… but there would have to be better special gear or something to spend the tokens or badges or whatever on.. because most good players are already in full exotics.. and with the lack of endgame progression.. being compeletely done with a character about a month after release is a little disappointing

Here is the deal with icons…

1. Map Exolor star… only your realm should be able to see it. You should be able to change whether or not it appears. (personally I think it looks stupid)

2. LFG ^^ Only should have your server see it.

3. Commander Icon … you should be able to set it so ONLY YOUR GUILD can see it. Idk why Anet did not think of that.. how do you miss things like this in meetings? Obviously a good skilled group does not want random pugs/solo people to follow us around when we’re running fraps trying to kill zergs with 10 people. =/ waste of 100g until thats fixed really.

No, melee is not ‘useless’ in WvW. I play a fully geared warrior, running sword/shield/Greatsword.. with a tanky build.

I have 32k hp, 2700 armor and 3200 attack with 35% crit. I use NO ranged weapon.

If you’re running with a skilled squad.. there are plenty of things to do as a purely melee class.. such as:

1. Kill over extenders
2. Run into a fight and kill other players (while your ranged supports you)

ect..

Certain situations I am useless.. defending a keep is pretty boring until they get in or we push out.. but thats why you roll with a good squad

jumping puzzles? people do those.. weird

I don’t think you should get anything for being ‘out numbered’.

Honestly.. if you’re out numbered.. you need to figure out another approach or kite them into a choke. If you get a buff for simply being out numbered? what happens to the highly skilled players that already defeat most groups even when they are out numbered?

Honestly.. if you’re out numbered.. you need to figure out another approach or kite them into a choke. If you get a buff for simply being out numbered? what happens to the highly skilled players that already defeat most groups even when they are out numbered?I’m going to get even more buffed for no reason? nah, I don’t like easymode.

“I like this game because it’s W3 does involve some skill, timing, attention to detail about your opponents strategies and about the battlefield conditions, and its more like playing chess as one of the pieces than WoW ever was since the old vanillaTarren Mill days.” -Sean

Haha, yes. Tarren Mill days were my glory days for WoW…

I agree that whatever kind of progression system is put in place.. it really should not be focused on grinding… I don’t think it is possible for there to be a system that stops ‘time played’ from becoming a factor.. but I do think with a Realm Rank system that rewards you based on % of damage you do per kill… thats where you would get MOST of your points.. then you would get WAY less points, but still points for yaks,keeps,camps and the lot… That will atleast make it so if you play all day and all night.. but you roll with the zerg the whole time you.. someone that plays less but has a better group and ends up killing more people, they would get more… i just like the idea of rewarding more points to players that kill more players in WvW based on % of damage done. Really tones down the numbers factor.

The way this game will probably turn out.. there are going to be guilds that ZERG pretty much constantly.. they just don’t have or run small groups… then there will groups of 8-15 players that are much more skilled and organized. Those groups are the ones that are going to turn the tables in important fights. Kite/wipe zergs, flank about retaking things..

so a % of dmg done per kill.. rewards those groups a bit more than zergs and solo kids.

Natural.7013:

Just wanted to say that these have been the most fun fights to date. The 3 way battle for 5 hours Friday night in Garrison was insane on IoJ map, and some of the best fighting in GW2 yet. Saturday night did not disappoint either.

Whoever ends up winning by Friday, I just want to say my hat is off to IoJ and CD…really bringing the fight. This is what WvW should be like.

Just wanted to say hell yeah.. that fight at garrison friday was nuts. Lasted forever and was just absolutely amazing. Great time!

@ Salamol

“OP says titles don’t matter, yet GW1 vets have spent the past 4 years working on titles. GW1 PvP vets have been working on their rank titles (which give no benefit, other than status and an awesome bambi/wolf/tiger/phoenix/dragon? emote) since GW1 release. Millions of GW1 vets bought GW2 because we LIKE having combat on an even playing field, where you beat another player because you are better than them (not because you have played longer” – Salamol

Frankly I don’t care what ‘GW1’ vets did. I played a little bit of GW1 myself, thought it was great.. I’m not stepping on any ‘GW1 Vets’ toes.. they have SPvP which I think SHOULD absolutely be balanced and equal with NO Realm Rank system. If they want to spend their time getting titles GREAT! But I don’t and open world pvp is not about an equal playing field.

This is a great time to explain WHY its not an equal playing field..

1. This game does pretty much give you exotics.. but some players are bad and STILL can’t get them. There is some unbalance.. I like it.

2. (MOST IMPORTANT) .. So have you guys heard of this ORB OF POWER thing?.. well that was Anet’s way of implementing a REALM RANK system.. instead of giving those stats over time to players that earn it.. they just give it to the WHOLE SERVER.. based on what normally 1 group does.. most likely in the middle of the night..

Completely illogical. So you complain at me for wanting something that would reward players OVER TIME with similar stats as the Orb of power because they EARNED it… yet you think it is fine for EVERYONE on ONE SERVER to have a HUGE BUFF.. based on something they could of not even participated in getting?.. talk about unbalance, that just about takes the cake..

You want to talk about UNBALANCE do you? When 1 server has 3 orbs of power.. the other servers are PROBABLY GOING TO LOSE most of the fights against them.. even down to the little small group battles… why? BECAUSE the ORB OF POWER is like making everyone on the server a high Realm Rank while the other servers are all Realm Rank 1… So no one noticed that?

Case closed.. you already have a Realm Rank system and it’s worse than the one that you’ve been complaining about on this thread.. its not intelligently designed. It rewards an entire server with a buff thats about equal to what I would think a high Realm Rank should have after spending an enormous amount of time (years) and having to actually be good to acquire it.

@Papyrus
“It’s not a penalty/disadvantage for someone to come into a game one month after some hardcore player to have to grind himself up over a long period of time before he can even have a fair match with him?” – Papyrus

I’m not saying its NOT a disadvantage.. I’m saying that the disadvantage exists now and SHOULD exist. They already boost everyone to max level which makes perfect sense.. but if someone did not spend the time to figure out how to get the best gear or whatever the case may be.. than no they should not have an equally strong character in WvW. That is for SPvP. Open world RvR is about your actual character and what you’ve put into it.

“So almost anybody will be about the same rank anyway? And the effect is minimal anyway? Then just get rid of the whole system because then it doesn’t make a difference in PVP anyway and would only complicate things and waste development time. Also, again you’re just assuming that your system rewards the “skilled players”, which as i pointed out earlier won’t be the case with your proposed indicators for skill (k/d ratio, etc.)” -Papyrus

The point of putting a system like this in.. is for fun obviously. Something to work toward… when you have full exotics and you’re max level.. you want to be DONE? From a business perspective and a fun player perspective.. progression is fun and progression keeps people playing.. and it WILL keep people MORE interested than without it, whether you like it or not.

Also it WOULD ABSOLUTELY reward more skilled players.. and K/D ratio has absolutely NOTHING to do with it. It works using % of dmg you did to that player per kill and that players Realm Rank. So if 12 players kill 1.. those points are split up 12 ways.. But if 5 players kill 12, they get more points per kill. So when zergs kill small groups they get less.. but when a smaller group kites and out plays the zerg they get more. It’s actually very simple and its proven. Obviously if a higher Realm Rank kills a lower one.. they get less points.. but if a new player kills a higher rank they get more points.

“And it’s good to have a game without the gear treadmill as an alternative to all the other MMORPGs out there.” – Papyrus

Dude? Did you not read the thread? I said pretty clearly that I would NOT want a huge difference in gear stats like there are in other games. Fairly equal gear forces things to be pretty balanced.. It is more boring, but its more balanced. The system I am talking about would not give better gear as rewards… and the stat increases are not even close to the differences a ‘gear treadmill’ creates.

“Don’t you see the reward that’s in the game already for these people? You even say it yourself! Winning itself is a reward, holding more points, winning the WvW Matchup, gaining more bonus percentages, gaining more xp/karma/gold etc….” – Papyrus

Are you serious? Winning is fun and I certainly play to win. I shouldn’t feel like I’m DONE with my character once I hit 80 with full exotics..

“Then you’re just assuming that only few people don’t want to grind for gear without backing that up whatsoever. If that would be the case, why are so many people playing the game? It would be a big fail if everyone wanted gear grind. Getting better gear IS fun, but it has many negative consequences and while you find it fun,” – Papyrus

Why do you keep talking about gear? I never said gear would be a reward or should be involved more so.. I completely agree that better gear rewards TIME over skill.. and causes a large power gap.

Oh yeah… and EVERYONE is playing GW2.. not because it dosn’t have a gear grind or whatever you think… they are playing it because it’s a great game. It has a great engine, it was done very well.. it has new concepts like evades and weapon skills.. and MOST importantly.. the real reason so many people like it… It BROUGHT BACK a concept that DAOC created.. WvW or RvR… or really.. Server vs Server or SvS. That open world taking keeps and fighting for your Realm or Server in this case.. is something that I’m surprised past MMO’s completely missed. That concept alone will bring in players because its so unique and fun.. and it really is the core of a good MMO.

Another very important thing to understand.. this is mainly for the developers and not the players..

Great job bringing the concept that DAOC created back into the modern MMO world… I’m certain that now every upcoming MMO is going to have an Open World PVP system similar to DAOC, just like you have. That is a great thing for everyone.

But.. speaking for the community I am a part of.. and I don’t mean the guild.. i mean the general community of people that agree with me.. If you don’t implement a system of actual character progression that preferably is based on skill/time/performance (what an mmo is about)…Guess what..The next MMO (elder scrolls or Titan)… they WILL have a WvW or Open World( daoc style) setting… and THEY WILL have one of 2 things… either hard to get gear to reward better skilled players to use in Open World combat.. OR they will have a Realm Rank system…When that happens you will lose the real MMO population that has flocked to your game EXPECTING character progression.. NOT TITLES and cosmetics.. thats for kids. You will be left with your GW1 Fanboys.. and people that don’t want to have to ‘grind’ for gear. Very small % of the mmo world.Most people don’t realize it.. but constantly getting better gear or better stats or WHATEVER you are ‘grinding’.. its fun.. its fun to progress with your friends and watch other people progress.People who say they hate ‘grinding’ are delusional. Grinding is another word for PLAYING.. and progression is a big part of what makes it fun. Getting points for Realm Rank in WvW is not grinding because I’m getting those points by playing well and having fun… to me grinding is killing the same monster over and over for a piece of gear.. which I never said I wanted.

sorry for double =/ I don’t know why it did that

Another important point to make.. this is an MMO… if everyone is just going to be completely equal in a months time (full exotics)… what is the point of even having the exotics in the first place? To create the illusion of progression?… An mmo should be about progression, end of story.

If someone puts more time into the game.. or is BETTER THAN YOU.. and they got a higher Realm Rank by out preforming the average player and winning fights against larger groups due to skill… that is absolutely logical and they should be rewarded MORE than someone who does not. I don’t want someone who has played for two weeks to be equal with me in WvW, thats stupid.

This game has the setup to house both concepts… Open World PvP.. which should have a Realm Rank system for progression of your ACTUAL REAL OPEN WORLD REAL ACTUAL REAL CHARACTER THAT YOU STAND IN LIONS ARCH WITH… and then SPvP for the absolute balance, test your skills 100% equal, jump right in…

“So everyone who gets the game after the release date should be penalized. Brilliant strategy for boosting the game’s popularity. You do have an advantage in this game over someone who’s on their day 1, it’s the skills you’ve developed as a player.” -Soggy

I could not disagree more. People are not ‘penalized’ for coming in late.. they just should NOT have as powerful of a character in OPEN WORLD (wvw) as someone who HAS played more. I’m starting to think alot of you don’t understand what WvW is…

Open world RvR or PvP or WvW or whatever label it has.. is supposed to be your Character AS IT IS.. against another players character AS IT IS… pretend you don’t LOAD into WvW… it should be an extension of the REAL Open world. That is what makes is awesome, that is why people loved RvR in daoc.. that is why its fun and unique. That is what made an open world fight in WoW so much more exciting. If you WANT absolute 100% balance, If you want to log on your first day and compete with people that have been playing for a month, go play SPvP.

Also you’re not even understanding what I am proposing… EVERYONE that plays WvW even a little bit.. will GET points.. meaning most players in terms of % of players.. will be around the SAME RANK.. only a very small % of VERY skilled players.. will be a little bit (3-5%) more powerful than other people. So no one is getting penalized.. and no one is going to be WAY MORE POWERFUL than another player simply because they have more time to play. That idea is just wrong, and if you think anyone proposed that.. idk what you’ve been reading, but it’s not my thread.

“Arguably there should be more titles and such linked to WvW contributions.” – Soggy

Dude are you serious? Did you not read this thread and just blindly post. There should absolutely NOT be ANYMORE achievements or cosmetics or titles.. those DO NOT MATTER. They do NOT DO ANYTHING. Character progression is not getting a new title every few weeks, its making my character grow throughout the life of the game. It’s called an MMO.

Also Its important to understand this progression system MUST be like insanely long. Thats kind of the point.. it has to be something that you can’t grind out in a week or even a few months. It must be something that everyone that plays open world WvW is slowly working toward over the life of their characters and the life of the game.

“3. Why give them an advantage? B/c they earned it, they played harder, they learned more, they recieved more badges, and they earned more money? What is with this socialist thinking that everyone should have an even playing ground? Whatever happened to you are what you make of yourself? Your saying that we should cater to those that do not play as well or invest as much time into a game than those that do otherwise?” – Seige

You hit the nail on the head here… I don’t know why some people forget that the thing they are developing/playing is a GAME. We do all start on an even playing field for Open World RvR.. its called a RELEASE DATE. I do not want someone that just bought the game today to be able to come into OPEN WORLD pvp and 1v1 me.. thats why SPVP is for. An MMO is about character progression..

I can go play LoL.. and guess what after 15 minutes of a 5v5.. I have BETTER gear and BETTER stats than other players… why? because I am better. An MMO is the same thing only over a much longer timeline than a 5v5 match in LoL.. the game started at the release date. That is what open world is all about and always has been.. its about MY TEAM.. MY CHARACTER all of the work i’ve put into it.. vs whoever.

"

The game needs something like this. Not necessarily exactly what the OP posted, but something similar, and balanced out properly by the devs.

Progression and incentive good
Static and unrewarding gameplay bad" – Gadzooks

I agree.. But I want to express that cosmetic and title progression ALONE is not enough. That stuff really does not matter to skilled players/organized private guilds.

I think using the correct factors.. the developers could make a real progression system that rewards everyone and is completely balanced.

Yerffejy.6538:

You wants ranks for killing people? Go to SPvP. Those are ranks specifically for killing players on an even playing field. Ya know, where it takes skill to do it. In WvW, you could easily be a 5-man team looking for single players to kill to gain their rank. How is that based on skill? Oh wait, it isn’t. I believe there is already a large achievement centered on how many kills you obtain in WvW.

Are you serious? No one cares about TITLES or cosmetic stuff that SPvP provides… leave that in SPvP. … I want my progression to have an effect.. i want it to MATTER. Titles do not matter. Also apparently you have not read ANYTHING i’ve written.. because i CLEARLY explain that you would get points based on % of dmg done to the player… so when a large group kills a smaller group they get WAY LESS. That makes it so you would get the most points for fighting equal numbers. Also.. what rank the player you kill would have an effect.. so a Higher rank player can’t just go farm rank 1 players and get TONS of points.

I titled it Intelligently Designed Realm Ranking for a reason. No one wants people to be rewarding for ganking solo players with a large group.

Also.. its not like there are just 2 kind of players… there are people who have no idea really what we’re even talking about and probably don’t know about the forums.. there are people who understand, but would play regardless because the game is awesome…

Also.. its not like there are just 2 kind of players… there are people who have no idea really what we’re even talking about and probably don’t know about the forums.. there are people who understand, but would play regardless because the game is awesome…Some people want balanced equal pvp, some want open world pvp with character progression… this game have the potential to house both effectively.

Its strange to me that its so common for people to disagree about ‘grinding’ or better gear or stat upgrades. Cosmetic and titles don’t matter… they don’t DO anything. Progression should be about making your character better throughout the life of the game..

In League of Legends, everyone STARTS OFF at the same place. But eventually, better players get better things based on how well they do. In most other MMOs GEAR has defined how powerful your character is.

I think those examples are EXTREME.. way too much. But going all the way to the opposite is just ridiculous. I don’t want cosmetic upgrades and titles to show off, while everyone is completely equal. I want the endgame WvW Progression TO MATTER , to do something.

The stat upgrades in a smart system WOULD NOT be as extreme as gear in other games and RR in DAOC. It would simply be small % variations between players, for the most part based on skill. But EVERYONE gets some, and everyone will be a whole host of ranks. So as long as a higher person is not THAT over powered, which ENTIRELY depends on how intelligently the system is designed.. there should be no balancing issues. Skill will remain the be the driving factor in WvW.

@Tarnin

You make a good point about that. With the current point system in place you could totally have everyone receive points for yaks, supply camps, keeps towers and the lot.

Math+ player trends (stats for how often things get taken and such + how many points are given for everything per player) using that information would allow you to figure out a balanced system.

“Here’s the problem.
Some of us suck at killing other players.
Some of us constantly get trounced when fighting one-on-one against another player.
Some of us are better at scouting.
Some of us are better at tactics.
Some of us are better at sieging.
Some of us put dozens of silver coins into making sure the various camps and towers get upgraded.
Some of us escort dolyaks and face no opponents because they’re busy defending from our zerg.
Some of us focus on the NPC guards (Like the sentries, or unguarded camps. Not the random animals, of course).

Some of us are glad we don’t have to constantly die against other players like in sPVP.

So what do WE get in this system? I’m already a bit bothered that I spent ten minutes destroying a wall of a Keep, yet didn’t get any credit for taking it because I wasn’t standing inside the circle during the capture."

So… if you’re not very interested in killing players and you seem to be more focused on taking keeps and such. Why do you care what happens when you do kill players?

“A small advantage is still an advantage. If if doesn’t make a difference, then why do you want it so badly?”

Also, this is a good question to ask and I understand why you ask.

The answer is that I don’t give a hell what my character looks like. I don’t want ‘cosmetic’ upgrades. Everyone could view my character model as a blue circle. What we should have is progression that makes our characters better over the life of the game.

I’m not a 14 year old Asian boy designing my avatar. I don’t want a cosmetic and simply ‘title’ ranking system in place because I want to feel like what I am progressing through MATTERS. Titles and the way your gear look means nothing to me.

“I put my time getting my ‘Ard Tiarna’ status in DAoC, and I put my time getting my gladiator title for WoW. You know what? Slapping around players because I have Ignore Pain 30, Master of Criticals 700, or my Vanquishers Gear of My Resillience is Too High for You to Hit Me is boring. Only people with serious life fulfillment issues need the sort of emasculation that comes with beating up people who can’t fight back at the same level as you.

I wouldn’t mind Realm Rank titles as a recognition reward, but I’ll vehemently oppose any sort of stat/power modification."

I was pretty surprised to even read this here. What are you even talking about? I said nothing about gear, in-fact gear advantages and things like resilience in WoW are terrible and certainly not good for this game.

But again, I must reiterate the fact that you didn’t seem to grasp or read what I was trying to explain. Everyone that plays would end up getting a reward, they would all have that very small upgrades. There would not be players that have an enormous advantage over anyone else, because the rewards would be balanced, and logical. Not stat upgrades that are going to make someone overpowered.

Also if everyone has them, there would only be a few % difference between players. And seeing as gear is pretty much completely equal in WvW.. it will make things a little bit more fun. But most importantly it will make it so that SKILL translates into larger fights. So that numbers don’t play as much of a factor as they do now.

“If after hundreds of hours of WvW, you still suck, then you shouldn’t beat a player who is better than you just because you have special traits for playing for hundreds of hours.”

How can you even say that after reading this post? I stated very clearly that this system would NOT reward players for simply PLAYING MORE OFTEN, but playing better. Also no one would ‘win because of special traits’. If designed correctly there would be only very small advantages. Also EVERYONE would have these advantages, thus balancing itself. Very FEW extremely skilled players/groups would have VERY SLIGHT advantages that would never be the deciding factor in a fight. Skill would always be the deciding factor with this system.

Really, this system gives everyone something fun and cool to progress toward while in WvW, while at the same time taking away from the fact that right now… NUMBERS matter way more than skill in most situations. 10v10, yes all skill. But 20v10.. guess what, skill becomes less of a factor and regardless of how good those 10 players are, 20 people button smashing and moving full speed (because of casting while moving) will always win.

A system like this would balance that out.

“And here come all the carebears who want a bland game that they can smash buttons in a zerg and win. With no progression after 80 this game will be a ghost town and then you can pve gates and yaks to your hearts content.”

I do feel that progression is important. Also I do not think having completely equal characters in WvW is fun because that is what SPvP is for. WvW is not an e-sport and it should be fun for everyone. With intelligently designed progression, it will be balanced and everyone ‘gets some’

“no, stop trying to gain an advantage over new players just because you died more”

Almost makes no sense, please only reply with an actual thought. If you have nothing to say, simply don’t post.

“This is exactly the kind of crap this game was designed to avoid. No bonuses for grinding.”

Apparently you didn’t read anything I wrote, because I made it very clear that ‘grinding’ would not be a realistic way to progress. The amount of time played would have little effect with a system such as this. You would be rewarded for ‘playing’ and having fun. Everyone is rewarded.

I just want to clear up the confusion about what a system like this is, as well as shed light on the benefits of implementing one.

Before I explain the details of such a system, I want to explain the reasoning for it. An intelligently designed Realm Rank system would give individual players a form of long-term end-game progression for open world/WvW game-play. This ranking system would be VERY LONG with ‘no end in sight’. It would be unrealistic for anyone to ‘grind’ through it like you can with leveling or gearing.

This system would reward you based on your individual skill and nothing else. This system would not reward players that simply ‘put more time’ into the game. It would reward players that perform better consistently, win more fights, kill more players per death ect.

This system would NOT give any character a significant STAT or GEAR advantage over other players. I would not want 5 high Realm Rank players to be able to fight 20 average players.

This system would give you SMALL 1% stat increases, or specific effects that are active while you are in WvW. As well as a new title per Realm Rank.

Here is an example of how a system like this could work:

There are 25 Realm Ranks. Everyone starts at Realm Rank 1 and points are accumulated per player kill in WvW. Points are ONLY given for killing players, (siege weapons do not count). The reason they are only given for killing other players is because points you get for taking keeps are already focused on matching up the weekly servers. This is a separate system, that is intended to express a players skill in actual combat.

The points you are given per kill will be based on these factors. How many friendly players assisted in the kill. What % of damage you did to the player. What Realm Rank the player is. (You would get more points for killing a high Realm Rank player than you would for being a high Realm Rank player killing a lower one.)

This system in my opinion allows average sized, but highly skilled groups to shine. As players fighting with a large ‘zerg’ will always be getting less points per kill. Smaller groups that kill a larger amount of players will be getting much more points per kill, allowing them to advance in Realm Rank faster.

Keep in mind that this system would be designed in such a way (using math) to keep the majority of players around the same Realm Rank. Seeing as there are no ‘overpowered’ Realm Rank rewards, a higher Realm Rank player is not going to have a very significant advantage over anyone else.

Here are some Ideas for Balanced Realm Rank rewards.
Realm Rank rewards could be a WvW specific Trait or Talent system.

1 point per Realm Rank Level. (or something like that)

Spend the points in the following:
(The higher % rewards would be after spending many points in that trait and obviously at a high Realm Rank you could not have all of these.)

Gain 1%, 3%, 5% 10% more total Power in WvW
Gain 1%, 3%, 5%, 10% more total Vitality in WvW
Gain 1%, 3%, 5%, 10% more total Toughness in WvW
Gain 1%, 3%, 5%, 10% more total Precision in WvW
Take 1%, 3%, 5,%,10% less total magic damage in WvW
Take 1%, 3%, 5%, 10% less total melee damage in WvW
Reduce ‘Insert Effect Here’ by 5%, 10%, 15% , 25% in WvW

(Also, Expensive but Unique Passive/automatic abilities could be added)

Whenever you fall below 25% hp all damage received is reduced by 50% for 5 seconds.
When you rally, you will take 50% less damage for 5 seconds.
When you kill an enemy player you gain X effect for 5 seconds.
When you revive a player you gain X effect for 5 seconds.
While wielding a Shield you gain a 15% increase to toughness.
While wielding a Greatsword you gain a 5% increase to movement speed.

And so on..

With only so many points to spend, but SO MANY different stat upgrades each player will have a variety of different options to choose from. An intelligently designed Realm Rank system would provide long term individual character progression. This system would be balanced, allowing for most players to be around the same Realm Rank and thus never having one player become ‘overpowered’ in the same way as having better gear could in other games.

This system would have no effect on SPvP or PvE because these effects are only active in WvW.

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