Guild Wars 2

For me the reason why I feel a bit upset is as follows:

I do not feel to be treated in a fair way.

I do not worry so much about the price. It’s not cheap, but if the new addition is as deep as expansions like Nightfall it’s ok.
But even with the HoT standard edition it should feel that the add-on is worth it to be explored and I’am ready to start exploring without having to extend my account further. Thus, as a veteran I do not have to sacrifice beloved chars to try out new possibilities.

Fairness is something closely connected to trust and respect for me. I’m much more willing and motivated to spend money ingame if I feel being respected and treated fairly.

Here’s the problem. We are told that we get the core game for free with the expansion. Yes GW2 is great value for money but the fact of the matter is this expansion is price of a full game. So when you say the core game is free we don’t believe you.

If GW2 is having problems funding money you gotta find some other ways and discuss it with the players but it doesn’t matter how you spin it selling a expansion for the full price of the game isn’t right.

You need to reduce the price for people who already have the game.

Regina Buenaobra.6193:

To clarify: $50 is the price of the expansion. We included the core game as a free bonus to make it easier for new players to get into it.

I think that’s good marketing for new players, but bad marketing for existing players. It’s going to provide existing players a reason to look for alternatives.

briggah.7910:

You’ve played the entire expansion to know what content is included?

Le Sigh

No one has. That’s one of the points. We have a company offering a product without revealing what that product contains in its entirety. If there is much more to the expansion than has already been shown, it would be to ANet’s advantage to reveal it. Since they haven’t, people are making the decision as to whether there is value for money in HoT based on what has been shown. Pricing something and offering it for sale and expecting the customer to believe there is more to it than you’ve revealed is asking too much.

As to your OP…

The base GW2 game came with certain content. People already had a good idea what was contained before the prepurchase became available. That price paid for all that launch content. That price and gem sales paid for the added content, features, etc.

HoT is an independent business transaction. The original purchase and any money spent on gems do not apply. Therefore, the existence of “free” content does not matter, either. A responsible consumer judges the value of a product based on what that product contains for the price. Such a consumer may choose to trust the company, or not — and that is that customers’ affair, not the company’s, and certainly not another customer’s (you, for instance).

Based on posts, a lot of people bought multiple copies of GW2 for whatever reason. Other “new vets” recently bought the game in anticipation of HoT. They got to play the game for however long? Irrelevant if they purchased those accounts anticipating they would need to have them to apply HoT. ANet told potential HoT customers they would need to own the base game to be able to play HoT. This is no longer true.

Customers who bought an account based on ANet’s saying. “The base game is needed to play HoT.” have every right to consider that they’ve been wronged. This is true whether the change in what’s included is intended to milk more money out of people or was just something that was ill-considered.

That brings us back to trust. A company misinforms me about needing one product to access another. I spend money based on that information, and later find out I didn’t need to spend that money to get what I wanted. That type of experience destroys customer trust. If I no longer trust the company, I’d certainly question whether there is sufficient value in the new product based on its price — especially if the company only tells me part of what’s included.

Ardid.7203:

The problem is not the content or the price. The problem is trust.
Should Anet say the expansion costs 80 bucks, that could be overpriced, but is a fair offer. You can take it or not, but is clear and honest.

My own feeling exactly.

If people want to whinge about the price point, I have little sympathy. ANet is ultimately free to try to sell its products at any price it wants. I’m free to make my own judgement, and either buy or not. As is everyone else.

Telling me ahead of time that I would need a copy of the base game, though (resulting in me spending money on the second account I’d been considering, in preparation for the expansion), then changing that without warning – and not only not acknowledging the fact, but trying to pretend that’s not what they were doing at all – that’s another thing entirely. I’ve put in a request for a full or partial refund – there’s a post on Reddit indicating that they may be open to things along those lines here). I shall be interested to see how they respond.

(I’ve worked in marketing in a multinational, and worked with the corporate guys quite a bit in other roles too. I’ve seen decisions like this many times. They usually happen last minute, when the marketing guys can’t make the numbers balance to squeeze as much money out of the release as they want. In this case, I’m sure, it was about trying to find a price as an expansion that would both get enough money from existing players and not put off new players who had to buy the base game as well. Ad they couldn’t agree one. So some bright spark had the idea of just bundling everything together from day one, upping the price point to something between the two extremes, and spinning the bundling as “a free bonus”. And either they didn’t realise just how big a lead balloon THAT would be amongst existing customers, or they decided the actual number of lost players would be acceptable.)

LyricDawnhagen.7803:

Sorry guys but this is just such a non-issue. IMHO, this is exactly the way that MMO expansions should be sold. The new hawtness is the important part of the expansion. It is the new content that is going to bring in new players. ArenaNet including the old content is just a way to simplify getting these new players playing the game as soon and as easy as possible.

Getting upset because ArenaNet is “giving away” their 3 year old content to new players when they buy the full priced expansion is just kittened. Do you also complain when Steam (or any other retailer) puts software on sale? You payed full price for that “epic game” you bought on Day One a couple of years ago and here is Steam selling that same game (and even throwing in all the DLC content) for 75% off the price you paid. How dare they devalue your original investment?!? Do you demanding a refund or other considerations from Steam for this affront to your wallet?

Also missing the point. It’s not that we don’t want newbies to have the core game thrown in, which they need to play the HoT content they pay for. It’s that veteran players don’t get what they need to play all of the new content as well – a.k.a. a character slot. In order to play the new class we bought access to, we need to make another purchase (or delete an old character, making part of the time we spent in the game null and void, and time, unlike money, is something I can never get back), and that is what makes us and our support over the years feel very much unappreciated. That is all.

Valento.9852:

Then they try to soften the anger by openly stating “core game is a FREE BONUS, xpac is INDEED $50 alone”. lol wtf

And that tells me they are completely missing the point. It’s not about the price (which looks a little steep compared to the relative prices of the GW1 campaigns in the same frranchise, but is still reasonable). It’s about the inclusion of a freebie for new players while people like me, who spent three years and a lot of money on this game, don’t even get access to the content we allegedly paid for with those 45€ unless we pay an additional 10€ for a character slot. It’s unreasonable to assume that, after three years, people have saved one of their original slots for the revenant and thus won’t need another slot, or expect them to delete characters they might have spent hundreds of hours on in order to try a new class they might not even like.
This is still the Guild Wars franchise, so this is going to get measured against the existing game(s) no matter what, and the fact of the matter is that especially veteran players are used to getting character slots whenever a new class was introduced with a new campaign. That is what we know, which makes it so baffling that Anet decided to not do it this time and instead expects us to make an unrelated purchase so we can actually experience the content we bought with the expansion.
It’s ultimately Anet’s decision how to handle this, but I’m not sure that alienating a large group of players to make them spend a little more money short-term is smart; happy players spend a lot of money in the long run. Me? I’ll be wary to spend another dime on the shop in the future.

The simple solution is to give those who don’t “redeem” that freebie core game a character slot instead. Problem solved, players happy.

yanipheonu.5798:

When has an MMO company ever offered veteran players a discount for an expansion? It’s never been a major practice in MMOs. New players will get stuff on sale, or newer, better deals. It’s like being an early adopter, there was never anything to stop a company from moving on from you. Game bought, occasional dlc bought, end of transaction.

Anything else is entitlement or unrealistic expectations.

GW1 offered character slots with every new expansion. You bought the expansion and you got new character slots equal to the number of new classes they introduced. These were not extra purchases but were part of the standard edition.

This is not about offering a discount to existing players, it is about offering comparable content and comparable value to them, and it is in the tradition of THIS MMO franchise.

yanipheonu.5798:

Largest flaw in this whole theory: it’s not an equivalent value. It doesn’t cost Anet ten dollars to give a new player an account. It just costs whatever it does to activate the account and keep them on them on the servers.

The $50 will go to the same places it usually does: development time, advertisement, the usual business. GW2 vanilla does not cost 20 percent of HoT’s budget. That’s absurd.

This in all likelyhood costs very little for Anet at this point, and as such, even if GW2 vanilla was not included with the expansion, we would not see much if any impact on the final price.

This expansion would cost the same, with or without new players getting a GW2 account.

And seriously, if the worst thing they do is favour new players a bit, you really gotta see how bad it gets in the really scummy MMOs out there. This ain’t a mobile cash grab, this is just people getting worked up over nothing.

Hell, I wish more companies let new players the vanilla game for buying the expansion.

I want new players to get a good deal, but not at the expense (be it financial or emotional, because each have value in both senses of the word) to long-term players.

It’s not about favouring “a bit,” it’s the impression that longterm investment is less important. And that feels nasty, which does impact my desire to shell out cash as a longterm player.

Honestly, for a couple of days now I figured I was going to treat myself today by throwing some money into the gem store. This news about HoT has actually altered my desire to do that today, so while it’s good to encourage new players it’s prudent to consider the impacts on established players too.

And saying “well it’s better here places than places with give bad experiences” is like… Well, yes, obviously. Which is why I play GW2 and not those games. If I wanted that kind of experience as a customer I would be putting my money there, not here. To be happy it’s not as bad here as other places is just counter-intuitive; a better experience should be what’s strived for, not a happiness that it could be worse :/

The problem is not the content or the price. The problem is trust.
Should Anet say the expansion costs 80 bucks, that could be overpriced, but is a fair offer. You can take it or not, but is clear and honest.
But if Anet says HoT will be just a expansion and then includes the core game into the price ONLY FOR A GROUP (Converting HoT in a boosted version of the core game, not just an expansion), after inducing a lot of people to get the core game alone through offers and promises… its false advertising. And that’s even legally punishable.

If we can’t say that it’s not worth 45 euros because we haven’t played the expansion, why can you say that it is worth 45 euros even though you haven’t either?

Lydell.8713:

It’s basically what it comes down to. They offer the base game for free to new players who would be reluctant to pay $50 for the expansion and 50 more for the base game. But the way it’s worded in the prepurchase screen makes it sound like vets have to buy the core game again and that it’s included in the price of the expansion.

Base game have been selling for $10 many times. The wording is just manipulated to pretend that us vets aren’t deprived of anything since we already paid for the original game already.

Unless it aligns with the view of ANet/those few forum-soldiers. Apparently.

I just want to say something to those of you, who have taken it upon themselves to be ‘freedom fighters’ on behalf of ANet and go around diving into every topic to berate your fellow players, call them entitled and greedy only to leave and make a new topic stating the same thing.

I genuinely hope you get your way.

Why? Because then a couple of months down the line after HoT release, you see the population plummet, you lose friends and guildies and despite the Megaserver you start feeling like you are in a ghost town in zones that will be popular, you will know that you were also part of the problem, you actively belittled players with genuine concerns.

Do you think they will simply feel better and buy HoT because you insulted them? No, few of them might stop responding because they don’t want to deal with you, but in the end considering how passionate they feel about the topic, they will probably leave, and then likely some of their friends will follow in order to be with their friend and so on and so on.

I just want you to remember this in about half a years time, I want you to remember the fellow players you put off taking a stand, I want you to remember the kind of business practices you encouraged.

Yup, that’ll do it. I can’t try out the new revenant without canning one of my existing characters.

So to try out one of the major features of the expansion, I need to spend ANOTHER $10, making it $60. (The ability to buy gems is a moot point. That’s just someone ELSE subsidizing that cost for me, that extra $10 is getting spent)

Also, to add on to your math, it’s a more economically sound decision to simply NOT upgrade my account, and get a second one for HoT, giving us FIVE more character slots and keeping our old account as alts for playing base content.

The HoT expansion costs $50, available only bundled with a “free” copy of the core game.

When the core game goes on sale, it costs $10. We can thus pretty fairly feel that the “freebie” in the bundle is a $10 bonus value.

But the practical upshot for those of us who own the game already is this: by including the core game for “free” ANet has tipped their hand that they’ve effectively padded out the price of the expansion by 10$ (the cost of the core game at its lowest price) over what it might otherwise need to be.

You know what else costs $10? Extra character slots. Which is exactly what current players of the game do want and need with the expansion.

If ANet can afford to “give away” one “free” $10 value item with the $50 purchase of HoT, why can’t they do it with another? The value, monetarily, is the same.

This, I think, is why so many of us feel so slighted. Getting the $10 value of the core game is nice for new players, but it’s a thumbing of the nose at existing players who ANet must know would not want to spend $10 in that way. It leaves current (and often very loyal and long-term) players feeling like they pretty much have to subsidize the bonus value being offered to new players, while they themselves are left out in the cold, not given the one thing they really want which, mathematically, is a simple even swap out: an additional character slot.

The idea, certainly, is to generate more income by getting players to spend out on character slots separately. However from the consumer side of things, we can all see that if ANet can afford to give one $10 value freebie that they could just as well give another. It doesn’t make us feel like we are getting a fair value for our money. It makes us feel snubbed, taken advantage of, and resistant to buying anything.

Batelle.1680:

And it’s not discrimination against anyone, not anymore than any product eventually going on sale or a deep discount. Which, again, not at all.

I literally get less for my money as an existing player than a new player would get for the same money. how is that not discriminating?

if I could get both, then it wouldn’t be. but I don’t. I only get the Expansion, while a new player gets both.

Zypher.7609:

60$ is the normal price for expansions, i do not understand why everyone is kittening about them including the base game? This is what happens when you want expansions, just think we could have had all these updates for free. GG internet cryers.

The issue is that:

1. This expac does not have enough content to be considered a stand-alone game (which most expacs do)
2. The players who have the game do not actually recieve their “free” copy of the game.
3. I would not care if the game was 60& but included half the things that most WoW standard expacs include.
4. As a vet player we are literally getting nothing except a wasted $10 that we don’t even get the serial code for (thus we cannot give it to friends and family).

oh and 5. The expac is not actually finished meaning they’re asking us to be like “ok have $50 of my money (actually $65 of my money)” to their response of “we might release more than what we’ve said we will but lol idk”

Zypher.7609:

60$ is the normal price for expansions, i do not understand why everyone is kittening about them including the base game? This is what happens when you want expansions, just think we could have had all these updates for free. GG internet cryers.

again, it’s not the inclusion of the base game. in fact, it’s the lack of the inclusion of the base game for existing players that’s one of the main issues.

Larynx.2453:

“(and was a very toxic response to this) "

apparently stating objective facts in a neutral tone is toxic if you disagree with them.

The toxicity comes from the situation and the lack of empathy from a “Customer service” representitive that they employ to keep their customers happy. After having worked in CS my entire life, I can tell you that this is a very toxic response.

I’ve only experience a month or slightly more? I consider myself to be a newbie veteran. I purchased the core thinking it was needed. I was misled and lied to. It’s not a matter of being greedy. I also see that older veterans who bought the game will need to spend more than just $50 to experience the expansion in full. Either that, or they grind madly for that character slot. Is it fair older players needs to pay $60 instead of $50?

Do I get an extra account then? Since the core is free?

“No, we just take the same amount of money.”

John Smith.4610:

InfinitytheSoulWarden.5963:

if you look at the world through the cold cynical eyes of economics

You rang?

Anet demands a respect for them but it seems it doesnt go the other way around and doesnt respect their customers by any means making jokes and fun from us.

For me thats another reason why i wont even bother considering to buy HoT unless i see apologies to the community from John on GW2 news.

I wont respect anyone that doesnt respect me.

Firebaall.5127:

Solutions:

1) Every expansion package, including the $50 option comes with at least 1 character slot.
2) Every preexisting account that upgrades to the expansion is given a key code for an additional copy of the base standalone game.

Do these two things, and see some balance restored.

Throw in a bundle of extra 1600 gems for anyone who links the expansion to existing GW2 account, and it would start making more sense. If someone wanted character slots, they could have two – which would be similar to how GW1 handled additional campaigns (and which have been cited several times in other threads). If someone wanted character slot and bank tab, they could have it. If someone didn’t need character slot, they could have two bank tabs and change. If someone needed neither, they could save the gems and get something later.

This would be easy to implement retroactively, and would be pretty much equal value for anyone regardless of what they already had or didn’t have. It wouldn’t impact the sales of expansions negatively, it wouldn’t make it any more difficult for new players to get into the game, and people who already have an account wouldn’t feel like they were completely left out. People who bought GW2 from discount a while ago might actually feel lucky.

I have 8 character slots, I have no need for more. I have no need for an extra account either. Also some people have already bought the ‘higher tier’ expansion options because they wanted the character slot too.. if you now added character slot to base package, they’d be screwed over. But I don’t think anyone who bought the ‘ultimate’ edition to get the 4000 gems would feel cheated if they got 1600 more on top of it (if linking to existing account).

I’d rather simply have an option to buy ‘expansion only’ for cheaper, but at this point that would get way too messy – switching options back and forth would create huge potential for scenarios where people would feel cheated one way or the other, and you can’t go on refunding EVERYONE.

Community, write your solutions here. This way anet doesn’t even have to come up with the ideas.

Aelyn.7954:

I have a suggestion. Give veteran players some unique (unavailable in shop) stuff instead of “free original game” which we already have. I don’t know, maybe some armor skin or outfit. You’ll end up making even more profit, because someone will definitely buy original game now (!) and then pay an additional $50 for aforementioned stuff.

P.S.
Excuse me, English is not my native language.

Since this seems to be the active thread on the subject (more or less, more so than the rest), I’ll just toss the thought in here, that I mentioned elsewhere: at the moment I think a good option would be to throw in 1600 gems for anyone who links the expansion to already existing account.

My original post with reasoning behind this, was here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/HoT-preexisting-accounts/first#post5158553

In short: easy to implement retroactively, adding this after purchase doesn’t screw over anyone, gives something to everyone that they can use – with freedom to pick whether they want character slots, bank tabs or whatever else. Equal in value to two character slots, which is what you got for linking campaigns in GW1 (which in itself is poor comparison, I know – since buying Factions campaign didn’t give you Prophecies for free). And, it gives something to improve the value of the deal for veteran players, as an alternative for the bundled base game that improves the value for new players.

No matter how you feel about the price, this is highly unethical and I’d be willing to bet it’s outright illegal too. You can’t advertise that you need to make an additional purchase to access certain content, then bundle them together with no option of purchasing them individually and delete the evidence.

Khristophoros.7194:

Dawdler.8521:

Great, worst case scenario happened. This is gonna separate and tear apart the community. I cant believe Anet did this

Its a great deal for those not already owning GW2… But for those that do (ie all of us) its a horrible deal. We’re paying €10-20 extra out of kitten s for absolutely nothing at all. Like buying a game and throwing it away. There should be an online only upgrade pack for like €25. Right now, we have no choice. We must buy GW2+HoT only to throw away GW2.

Secondly, the Deluxe Edition is horrible value. The only thing we wanted was a character slot and that’s not worth the extra €30. On the flipside, the €100 Ultimate Edition is good value compared to the €45 standard. WTF Anet. You know exactly what you are doing, right?

It’s a big scam to get people to buy 4k gems that they probably don’t need. Only way you’re gonna get HoT without feeling like you wasted money. But in reality it’s still a waste of money because I’m pretty sure it won’t even have 40 bucks worth of content.

Of course its a scam to get people to pay out their kitten , but it doesnt change the fact that 4K gems do cost €50 today, meaning you only pay €5 for the extra fluff. An additional slot is currently at €10. So its value compared to the Standard Edition… which isnt value at all of course.

The sad thing is that I dont think Anet even understand how players are today, how easy it is to move to another game just because of things like this tipping the scale. They may just have mortally wounded GW2.

Loex.5104:

Dear ArenaNet THIS is highly bad business…
This is also false advertising for everyone who bought the game between the FAQ-Post and today. This is not the ArenaNet we knew.

You really have a good hand on screwing your player-base and causing a rage-wave haven’t you? – the forums and reddit are exploding like hell and the people complaining are right.

it is totally ok to price the XPac with 50 bucks
it is totally ok to give the base game for free to new players*
it is totally ok to deliver different packs with different inclusions

*BUT it is absolutely not OK to forget the loyal playerbase who financed the game over the past years. Where is the benefit for the Veterans?
I get more for my money if i create a new account than i get if i upgrade my existing one.

If you include the Basegame to the HOT Pack it is totally obvious that its unfair for the existing veterans if they get nothing if they upgrade for the same price the new players have to pay.

This.

I’m not upset about the price of HOT, pretty much what I was expecting.
Not upset about the core game being free from now on, since players will want the full game anyway.
But I expeted veterans players to have something either :

• a lower price (not by much something like the 10 bucks that the core game in the last sale)
  or
• having two separate code one for the core, one for HOT that would have at least allowed us to try and bring friends during the summer that would have bought HOT eventualy, so not a bad move financially either.
  or
• having a title and a free slot for long time players.

Just So We’re Clear Between Us
for the players Many countries have laws on the books regarding these deceptive business practices. There are legal remedies that may be available to players in those countries. Those legal remedies may (or may not, admittedly) change the way anet deals with this particular issue – see Steam’s recent changes after being sued in Australia .

That the business practices we’ve seen are deceptive there can be no doubt. whether your country has laws to protect you from this type of deceptive practice is up to you to find out.

I don’t recommend suing anet, but I do heartily encourage every consumer to be aware of their rights as individuals.

Finally, to anet: I really wish it hadn’t come to a time when I was warning other players to check their local laws about what you’re doing. You’ve gone and done what I swore to my friends was not a possible thing, and flipped my opinion about you 180 degrees over a stupid expansion. I’m sure others feel as poleaxed as I do. To keep them, and to keep me, I suggest you fix it, fix it now, and make a hearty apology to boot.