Guild Wars 2

Yeah, I run a S/D tank build so I don’t really “burst” anything but I do probe various targets in a group conflict until I find one particularly squishy then down him. From there I attempt C&D + stomp, or C&D + Tactical Strike anyone trying to revive them and then focus on downing the player attempting the revive, while staying close enough to the originally downed player for my sword’s aoe to finish them off as well. I can also outright face tank any burst build I’ve encountered so far long enough to stomp should the need arise.

In my experience, S/P for PvE unless you need allot of condition purging then go S/D for that encounter. For WvW I prefer S/D all the way due to it’s easy access to stealth and, more importantly, Tactical Strike. I have a S/D WvW guide posted on my server forums, PM me if you’d like a link.

Lalnuir, there are underground fight clubs (dueling groups) popping up all over. People build out specifically to 1v1 for these. So far, I’ve dueled vs Ehmry Bay, Dragonband, Maguuma, and Yaks Bend.

If you fight in a good 1v1, invite them to your party (target + /invite) and let em know how good they are. It’s amazing the cool people you will meet.
My little ring in this match up has grown to over 10 people across the servers who do nothing but duel each other all day. Quite entertaining and you get so see some really unusual builds.

AlBundy.7851:

Adaneshade.2409:

kenshinakh.3672:

EthanLightheart.9168:

Thiefs are so hilarious. Nerf them alreadey. So overpowered. Strealth without cooldown all the time. Too much selfheal and mucxh too much damage upkeep.

*3s revealed buff != Stealth without cooldown.
*Self-heal and damage upkeep depends on the build you have. You can trade in for either one but not both.

I have successfully rebuttal your argument.

What class do you play that makes it feel like thieves are overpowered? If it is a class I play, I’m more than happy to teach you how to play and beat thieves on that class.

That would entail them actually having to get better. All noobs want is things to be given to them (WoW has created this generation of lazy welfare gamers). Would LOVE to see these people play a real MMO, like one where you lose xp on death and can actually DELEVEL :-P

Isn’t this the reason why stealth classes were introduced to give bad players and casuals a free ride with minimal effort and thought?

Are we talking historically? Or about GW2 in particular? In the past, some of the most difficult classes to play have been stealth oriented…..

In GW2, I will agree that the thief has builds (see D/D backstab) with a really low entry level skill threshold. These builds verge on god-mode in noob vs noob combat. As evidenced by the number of them is PuG sPvP.

On the other hand, these builds are all but worthless vs more seasoned opponents, which is why you simply cease to see them in high level tPvP or in the dueling circuits/fight clubs in WvW.

At this point, you see thieves with more complicated builds. They are all but impossible for a new player to use, but absolutely deadly in the hands of someone capable of using them to full potential (S/D, D/P, S/P, etc).

The thief is a class of extremes…… Really low required entry skill with a skill cap that rivals that of any class in game.

TL;DR: Yes, and no (a bit of both perhaps)

Anyway, back on track…….
I totally agree with the OP. It’s not so much a L2P issue as a L2build-for-PvP one. Most people who run these PvE oriented specs are actually quite decent with them. They are just gimping themselves in a PvP environment with their builds.

Yeah just ignore him, Lalnui. I’ve already put my money where my mouth is and he’s made it perfectly clear he isn’t willing to take me up on it. Some people are just all talk; easy to act tough on an internet forum :-P

Yeah, Ross. Players need to take a step back in the WvW meta and realize that forcing the enemy to give up the turf is a win. You don’t need to kill what isn’t a threat to you.

There are always players to fight solo lol. Never an issue there. Now go troll elsewhere, I’m done with this foolishness.

So, everyone on a particular server is of the same skill level? I’ve seen delusional, but this guy sets a new bar….

Is he throwing server total points into a conversation about 1v1? lol wow what a misguided fellow. I didn’t want to call him out on it in case he had some other meaning…..
All that points reflect is who’s server zergs harder. I do not care about scores; or what tier my server is in (tbh I get better 1v1 fights in lower tiers than I ever did in high tiers, zerging makes for weak players) objectives or any of that.
I guarantee you I wasn’t involved in any of this PRX zergfest stuff because I don’t bother myself with objectives….. I play for small group fights and 1v1.

Sorry I can’t understand your post, lol. Wrong thread? Trying to read in in context of current conversation isn’t working.

Just let em run? Kill the next guy, they’re no longer a threat to you. Most fights vs GC builds are so one sided in favor of the tank it’s a laugh.

K, so care to try it? :-P

Mian.1945:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Adaneshade.2409:

Burst classes are so squishy, you really have zero trouble killing them in full out tank builds. They negate none of your damage so you still hit like a truck vs them. The more people start building tank the more likely people will cease to spec bursty simply because tank trumps burst in pvp.

This may completely change the game as we know it as people become more knowledgeable about what a PvP build actually is (hint it isn’t glass cannon).

It’s the three B’s. Burst, Balanced, Bunker.

Burst has the raw sudden damage to take out burst and balanced with relative ease, but not bunker.

Balanced is susceptible to Burst, but has the sustained damage and raw staying power to whittle down a Bunker.

Bunker is impervious to Burst, and can hit them like a truck (thanks Adaneshade for the imagery) despite their lower damage output, but cant handle a Balanced toughness while the same Balanced whittles them down.

That’s the theory anyway. The trick is finding the builds that accomplish this, and the devs balancing the mechanics accordingly.

Yay in theory but it NEVER works. There is a reason for the old saying the best defense is a good offense and your entire post also outlines the whole problem. Stepping aside from the whole “thief” drama, in any PVP game where there is a class with “avoidance” mechanics this becomes a massive force multiplier on their whole dmg/vs tank paradigm.

Super run speed is another example that breaks PVP in the same way stealth does. If I can run much faster than anyone in the game then I decide when and where PVP occurs. I can joust the other guy and it gives me a massive force multiplier advantage. If I am the only class with snare in the game it creates the same problem because now I can kite everyone and again I control the PVP.

Let’s take another example, suppose for arguments sake one of the GW2 classes had immense endurance regen as part of their “flavour” to the point where they could dodge roll almost continuously. This would break the game in similar ways to stealth. I could go glass cannon without caring about the consequences. If you don’t believe how effective this would be go and take the Thief trait Feline Grace and watch your survival rate quadruple.

So these types of classes are freed from the consequences of the dmg vs tank decision making process and can effectively glass cannon without the downsides, or at least with severely reduced downsides. This was the case in Aion with the Ranger and Assassin, with extreme stealth abilities all they had to worry about was offense, defense didn’t matter. You are free from having to make the burst vs bunker decision whereas everyone else is forced to make it and then their decision is also made for them, they must choose bunker because burst affords them no utility against a target they can’t engage.

So then a force multiplier for your character also becomes a skill multiplier. Two equally skilled players, the one with the force multiplier will win 8 of 10 matches. A lower skilled player can use an advantageous class to clownshoe his way over other players and think he’s doing great.

All you’ve done is explain that a GC thief can run away. That is a loss as they had to give up the turf.
I’ll challenge any GC thief to 1v1 my tank thief, currently on Maguuma server, PM me if you want a shot……

Any bunker who dies to GC warrior regularly is bad, end of story.

Stun recovery/dodge roll out of bull rush 100 blades.
Watch warrior blow his load.
Kill warrior.

EthanLightheart.9168:

snip . No othe class can finish someon in wvwe in stealth mode, snip

Mesmer
Engineer

Your argument is invalidated

kenshinakh.3672:

EthanLightheart.9168:

Thiefs are so hilarious. Nerf them alreadey. So overpowered. Strealth without cooldown all the time. Too much selfheal and mucxh too much damage upkeep.

*3s revealed buff != Stealth without cooldown.
*Self-heal and damage upkeep depends on the build you have. You can trade in for either one but not both.

I have successfully rebuttal your argument.

What class do you play that makes it feel like thieves are overpowered? If it is a class I play, I’m more than happy to teach you how to play and beat thieves on that class.

That would entail them actually having to get better. All noobs want is things to be given to them (WoW has created this generation of lazy welfare gamers). Would LOVE to see these people play a real MMO, like one where you lose xp on death and can actually DELEVEL :-P

I run a 0-30-30-10-0 build with dolyak runes and Soldiers amulet slotted with knight’s jewel. I find it very entertaining to have my opponent scratch their head at a thief that can tank them ^.^

Personally, I detest the zerg battles that inevitably come with keep sieges. I do, however, thoroughly enjoy roaming in a small group, fighting other small groups. That is enough fun that I don’t even miss a progression. As a general rule, I, and those I run with completely ignore objectives, we’re there simply for the PvP.

Remove caps on aoe, add more AOE CC…..problem solved. A smaller, more coordinated group can kill a larger group even at 1:10 odds in that situation.

The intent for legendaries were that they were to be a weapon signifying ones absolute mastery of the game. PvP is part of the game, if someone can’t PvP well enough to earn their badges, they don’t deserve to own a legendary.

MartyPartys.9187:

Although I’m with you on this, here is an advice we use on our server.

/t = tactics
/m = general talk like JP

How much luck have you actually had in getting anonymous puggers to follow that rule?

The intent is for badges to come from participation in PvP. Neither I, or anyone else interested in PvP is gonna just let some carebear collect his welfare badges without having to fight for them.

Burst classes are so squishy, you really have zero trouble killing them in full out tank builds. They negate none of your damage so you still hit like a truck vs them. The more people start building tank the more likely people will cease to spec bursty simply because tank trumps burst in pvp.

This may completely change the game as we know it as people become more knowledgeable about what a PvP build actually is (hint it isn’t glass cannon).

The common excuse that it’s needed for world completion is absolutely false. There is nothing in the jumping puzzles that contribute towards getting your legendary, the only rewards for completing it contribute to PvP, therefore, these dungeons were built completely around PvP.

Please be prepared to PvP in a PvP zone >.<

salameri.3768:

Red Falcon.8257:

People still ask for Warrior nerfs, go figure.

It’s the WoW player logic:
Die -> forums -> cry for nerfs
instead of
Die -> L2P -> win

Haha totally agree with this!

This problem is compounded by the fact that all defensive options are active rather than passive in GW2. (dodge, block, etc all require actively triggering some ability). It further separates the bad players from the good ones and worsens the QQ on forums because there are, unfortunately, people who will NEVER be good enough at this twitch style to be successful.

Osaliske.4392:

It’s not even so much the system requirements. I’m running a very high end machine, and culling/rendering happens no matter. It’s the coding itself that causes the problems. Which is one of the reasons it will not be fixed anytime soon, or at all. The coding was poorly optimized. Hell, the game doesn’t even utilize your video card, its all CPU.

Culling is not a “bug” it was implemented on purpose during the headstart event because players’ PCs / connections could not handle the amount of information on screen. Culling did not exist in BETA because that was one of the performance “fixes” they implemented just after release.

I mean I understand that they went a little on the optimistic side in setting their minimum system requirements and now feel obligated to meet that mark.
However, punishing those of us who are actually serious about gaming and who buy the appropriate hardware to do so doesn’t make sense.

There was no culling in BETA, and it worked great for most systems, but those who just barely met the min requirements found the game unplayable. The better option would have simply been a slider for max character rendered on screen that could be controlled client side.

Still don’t understand why they couldn’t make culling be client side like every other game has………at some point being different just to be different is foolish.

Would like to see each player / objective be worth a set amount of xp based on the level of the player or how upgraded the keep/tower/camp is. That set amount would be divided among players contributing to the kill/taking of the objective.

This would serve to split up the zergs a bit since people would obviously want to use as few people as possible to take each point to maximize their own progression. That would relieve some of the issues with culling as well as make for a much more strategic game in WvW.

It’s not a singular class issue…..building as a glass cannon in PvP is a noob mistake regardless of what class you are playing/fighting against. This has been the case in every PvP based MMO in history, including GW2.

Glass cannon thieves are hands down the weakest builds we have in PvP. They are only capable of killing players who either lack understanding of their own class vs every other class on a class vs class basis (a L2P issue) or players who run builds that are simply not viable in PvP (inexperienced in MMO pvp builds)

Tankier builds are dominant. That applies to every class yes, even the thief. Raw damage output only really matters in PvE content, where PvP is all about control.

RedOwl.7496:

Adaneshade.2409:

This is, has been, and always will be, the role of the “assassin” archetype in PvP.
(and please don’t argue the “thief” vs “assassin” semantics…… the thief is intended to fill the role of assassin archetype)
The entire premise of the class is custom tailored to solo play. From the high mobility, to the ability to go invisible.

So you KNOW with absolute certainty that this what ANET intended? Show me somewhere where they say they intended the class to be able to roam at will and “assassinate” people. Seems like they intended them to be able to steal abilities from stealth…not be overpowered roaming gankers.

Just because you think they should be assassins does not make it so.

For all you know they want everyone to have to run around in zergs. Seems like it since that is what 98% of WvW is right now.

Just hope they change it so you have to risk as much running around solo as much as everyone else has to someday instead of having easy mode solo.

Well, as it appears that your request was filled by magicthighs, I hope you see the intent is there for a solo friendly class.
People typically choose the thief as a solo toon (alt if they usually want to group or main if they prefer solo) as nothing the thief brings to a group can’t be done better and easier by another class.

The trade off…..thieves have no group utility without sacrificing some of their solo ability. So, the same argument could be made the other way then…why do all the other classes have so many group friendly builds, while the thief brings nothing but selfish gameplay mechanics?

As a second note, TANK > BURST in EVERY 1v1 situation. I’ve even built my thief as a tank and have found burst builds are a joke to 1v1 regardless of how much burst they are capable of (and yes that includes burst thieves, which are one of the easiest of the burst builds to kill in my experience)

High dps is great if you have a zerg to hide in; but a dead player does how much dps again?

RedOwl.7496:

Archonis.7249:

Kolly.9872:

I always kill thieves.. on my thief the majority of them suck

Also, if you are going solo and crying about 1v1’s in WvW. Then you are bad and making worse decisions. Sorry, has to be said. WvW is about small and large groups working together dynamically to take the map. Not Rambo running around and killing the Sheriff’s Department in Hope, Washington.

Protip: going in WvW solo, you;re going to have a bad time. (especially against thieves)

So why are there so many thieves running around apparently able to play Rambo? Lots and lots of thieves running around solo. Why is that? Why is that fair?

Why do they NOT have to run in small and large groups like every other class?

This is, has been, and always will be, the role of the “assassin” archetype in PvP.
(and please don’t argue the “thief” vs “assassin” semantics…… the thief is intended to fill the role of assassin archetype)
The entire premise of the class is custom tailored to solo play. From the high mobility, to the ability to go invisible.

Solo is possible on other classes, but they simply must choose a build a bit more friendly to solo play; either by increasing mobility or defensive capability.

Below is a list of builds I’ve fought as a thief that are actually challenging (not at all a complete list as there are multiple solo-capable builds for every class)

D/D ele.
Stealth / evade /shatter mesmer
Banner / GS warrior.
Melee / trap ranger.
Burn / regen guardian
Flamethrower / control engi.
Well / tank necro.

I have dueled every class and all of them have builds capable of good solid 1v1.

1v1 vs someone else who’s built to 1v1 is just as hard as 1v2 or 3 vs people running zerg builds.

Bottom line, if you want to run around solo, build for it like everyone else, or stop QQing and stick with the rest of your zergling buddies.

Osaliske.4392:

covenn.7165:

I preferred DAOC stealth myself of all the games I played

I never had a chance to play DAOC. Was it anything like stealth in Warhammer online?

No, in DAoC you could only stealth when out of combat (in most situations THink there was a Realm Ability that worked like a vanish on long CD) and then only if you were at least a certain distance from mobs/players dependent on your spec into stealth vs their level. Stealth also had a “pulse” that would trigger less and less often the higher you specced in stealth. If you were in front of an enemy when that pulse triggered, they could see you.

To trade off for this though, the burst that assassin classes were capable of could LITERALLY one shot cloth wearers (not this 3 or 4 abilities chained in quick succession we see in GW2) unless they were capped out on con (HP) and had AF buffs up.

I doubt that will be a problem as all it does is interpret button pushes as keystrokes. All the game would see is the end signal. If you start modifying the game itself, either in processes or the data being transferred to the server; that is where the issues start.

I like Sword build, especially for group play since they have so much control. However, I would suggest dagger off hand instead of pistol for easy access to stealth. Not to say pistol is bad, it just might be safer as a glass cannon to have as much stealth as possible.

Maybe, now bear with me…just maybe. Everyone who plays a thief is just better than everyone who doesn’t……..What?! It’s possible :-P

Columba.9730:

Adaneshade.2409:

Culling only occurs in zerg situations anyway, are you a zergling?

so it’s ok that thieves remain stealthed in zergs? wow, great logic there. BTW it happens everywhere in wvw. try again.

Actually, I have tested this extensively and confirmed by asking enemies after fights……5v5 and smaller fights experience no culling. If there is a zerg nearby though (near enough to be trying to load on screen) then, yes culling becomes an issue. That however affects EVERY class, not just the thief. You simply can’t see half the enemy zerg.

Culling IS a major issue. But, as I said, only affects the zerglings. Most of the complaints vs thieves have been in 1v1 roaming situations where culling is just a weak attempt at an excuse.

Allot of issue comes from fighting every thief the same way. Sure, stray aoe will likely kill a glass cannon, but a thief with enough sense to bulk up a little will just laugh at aoes.

Lol, well it sounds as though the thief was not in a zerg. Culling only impacts the zerglings.

Culling only occurs in zerg situations anyway, are you a zergling?

Thieves do not have to be glass cannon, lol; though I won’t fault you for saying it as this is a very common misconception. We actually make quite the control tank too for organized group play/solo ganking.

Have you been stalking me, Cover Girl? Was sure no one was watching.

Professor Sensei.2941:

Title says it all. Not saying the class is bad but I would like to see more than P/D and D/D thiefs running around. I know there are some P/P thieves sprouting up ever since the patch but their damage still don’t compare to D/D. As for S/D builds that used to be viable are now only used by vets that mastered it pre-nerf so they can spank baddies left and right still.

I feel as though our weapon set is so confined and either needs the be expanded or have another look taken at it. I see threads every now and then about a rifle thief and I personally would love to see a 1200 range weapon in the works.

Lastly just to end this little post I would like to point out to anybody crying about the damage on Back Stab still (although their numbers seem to be dying off finally) that the only way to get over 10K damage is to run 100% glass cannon. I know first hand how hard EVERYONE hits me in this game. It doesn’t take much to kill me, you just need to be smart and land your kittens.

I’d have to argue against your statement about S/D. I didn’t pick it up until after this “nerf” which was really just balancing an ability that was crazy OP. The fact you could have your opponent dazed for the entire duration you spent out of stealth before was a bit ridiculous.

It isn’t a noob friendly setup, no; but no weapon set should be. In a perfect game, all builds should require hours of practice to play well in order to balance the fact that we’re simply so kitten powerful.

In it’s current incarnation, there are certain builds that a complete moron can pick up and go gank other morons with no losses at all. Any moron vs another should have 50-50 shot in a truly skill based combat system.

Yet again, we get INITIATIVE as part of our class mechanic (it is even displayed where the F2-F4 would be for other classes) we are the only class capable of spamming an attack should we choose to do so.

Correct, sword doesn’t have the burst of dagger, so why try to build around that, build yourself to take a hit and you can just tank away in the middle of the zerg and still get your kill :-P

All depends on how you build…..There are ways to make a thief downright tanky (my favorite build btw). Compared to the heavy’s we don’t really have to sacrifice quite as much damage as ppl seem to think to attain a beefy setup.

S/D is not sub par lol. It just takes a bit more practice to master than other builds.