Guild Wars 2

It’s not so much a “learn to play” as a “learn to build” problem. If you build glass cannon, you are a noob to PvP. In no PvP MMO ever has there been a time when glass cannon was remotely successful versus competent opponents.

DAoC – Required templates
WoW – Required special PvP stat (once implemented and required HP build before that)
AoC – Required high HP/defense setups
WAR – Required high HP/Defense pvp gear
Rift – required pvp stat/High HP

Why should GW2 be any different?

zastari.1730:

I love thieves I need more free lootbags

-A mesmer

Your name resembles that of a certain mesmer from Maguuma that I love dueling. Is this who I think it is?

~Shadowkat

I would have no issue with a nerf to thief burst builds, would perhaps make the thief no longer the FoTM profession; leaving those of us who actually play respectable builds to play in peace.

There is already a initiative on weapon swap mechanic available. Which essentially does just what you asked for.

Perhaps we wouldn’t MIND T5. If our goal is simply to roam looking for 5v5 fights, why would we care what tier we’re in? Once ANet implements their progression system for WvW, it’s very likely that 5v5 will become the new meta. (assuming they base progression on kills, which, given their history of following DAoC as an example will likely be the case.) Giving those of us who have practiced working together as a 5-man a distinct advantage.

Rayya.2591:

i don’t really have problems vs S/d thieves as an D/D thieves.
The burst is too low – C&D – dodge – Backstab and you win vs S/D thief

You assume that your backstab is vs another glass cannon. That is a mistake as allot of S/D thieves will be running a more tanky build. I myself run with a little over 3100 armor. Your opening volley will do good to half life me, assuming I just let you get it off.

So sorry, this is what I get for posting so early in the AM. I see now that you had directed that to neclon.

Haha, yeah sry should have blurred out my conversation in guild >.<.

And to your comment on WvW. I realize T1 is a zerg fest, which is why I transfer off servers that make it to T1. I run in organized duo/trio (at most a 5-man) where having a control tank is often the difference in a win or loss vs an equally matched team. That’s not to say I don’t do well solo either….Too many ppl run full berserker setups in WvW, I can down those in 2-3 auto chains with sword even with my build.

bloodymarx.9052:

@ matea: you can’t, but if you use return after that, you’ll still go back to your original place and get a condition removed.

@ neclon: out of curiosity, why Shadow Protector? The Healing Power of thieves is generally not so high, so you might be able to support your groupmates better if you blind your enemies more often. Cloaked in Shadows would be good for that, though Shadow Arts T1 has other very useful traits as well.

Oh, and regarding your original question: I’d say S/D is better for WvW 1vs1 or 1vs2 scenarios. You don’t have to focus on backstabbing (a rather predictable tactic) to deal good damage, and against two opponents, you can damage them both with your auto-attack if they are close enough to each other. Being able to cripple and immobilize your target(s) is also better than just being able to cripple them, especially if they’re trying to run away.

About FS: yeah, its only reliable use against players seems to be the boon removal with the first hit, and an unpredictable dodge with the second. (If you’re unpredictable, that’s good.) It can be used to damage players, but for that, you’d probably be better off with the auto-attack chain.

The shadow protector is for more selfish reasons than anything, the regeneration stacks with your 30 point regeneration so you have allot more healing. yes, I’m aware it says “allies” but it counts you as an “ally” so you get regen too.

That i can agree with.

Only really situational if you let yourself get downed, I guess. I manage to keep a 25 stack 90% of the time.

Would still call anyone capable of using it to max potential pretty skilled, wouldn’t you? Same could be said for S/D, but i find it easier, personally, due to easier access to stealth.

Yeah, never stated those stats were in sPvP.

Right, the point is to lay down a shadow return portal to always have a stun break if you get jumped, not for mobility (which you can use it for if you have an enemy targetted). The shadow return states 1200 range but it is in actuality FAR greater, over 2k.

Precision sources are: Full 30 points in traits, Emerald orb in all armor, fully stacked precision sigil on weapon, full emerald orichalcum jewelry. That gives 59% crit chance, whether or not you BELIEVE it is irrelevant.

I can link you to a guide I wrote for my guildies, for a S/D build, specifically a control tank build for WvW. It’s not a perfect guide, but maybe it’ll have some useful info for you.

here:
http://www.ehmry.com/topic/1419-thieves-looking-for-a-survivable-wvw-build/

Try to land tactical, in fact you can land it from any position, if from the front just clip your character into theirs and it’ll count as behind them. The key is to try to hang out in stealth and wait on them to cast heal and interrupt that, timing is more important than with most builds.

edit: typo

S/D is CAPABLE of being miles better than D/D can ever be. The problem is, it’s an extremely high skill cap weapon set so there are few of us who can play it to it’s full potential.

My thoughts? This is in the wrong forum….

Rump Buffalo.2594:

Thieves are very obviously not balanced. You can disagree with the community, the “pros”, and the devs if you want but no profession is balanced right now. There are 1 or 2 who are close but we all have our problems.

Thieves need tweaks badly because they have about 2-3 viable specs and everything else is laughable. They are far too strong in some areas and far to weak in others. This system allows for better balance to be reached without cooldowns because that is the main issue with balancing around initiative

2-3 viable specs huh?

Viable Specs:
P/D condition
D/P direct
Shortbow Direct
Shortbow Condition
D/D Condition
D/D backstab
S/D tank
S/D glassy

S/P (for PvE, and PvP if your’e really pro)

These are just a few generic builds I’ve run successfully. The list gets even more detailed with different allocations in traits…..yeah we are hurting for viable builds….

Correct I run a 0-30-30-10-0 build. My only goal is to snare/daze/distract enemy support in WvW while my zerg rolls in and finishes em off, I find I do this better as a S/D thief than any other class can.

Correct, I’m using lifestealing food, which hits for 314 a pop with no cooldown. The crit comes out to being worth more than bloodlust sigil due to that.

And you likely went into the Power tree in your build, which would give you more power. I run as a control tank focusing on lifesteal procs and regeneration from stealth rather than raw dps, more of an attrition style that has worked well for me.

Wasabee.5031:

Adaneshade.2409:

I have to disagree, With power as the main stat on Power/tough/vit, you get incredibly high power. It works VERY well with a sword/dagger build. I throw in emerald orbs and emerald jewelry (toughness/power/precision) and I now have 59% crit chance as well as an obscenely high power and still come out with over 3100 armor and 17k hp with food. I have no problem at all taking out any build from any class 1v1 and typically do just fine 1v2.

I still can’t see how could you get up to 59% crit chance with all of those power/tough/vit gears? with power/tough/vit gears, Power/Precision/Tough jewelry provided you 59% crit chance, 3100 armor and 17k hp. Please provide screenshot.

Very well, here is your screenshot. Anything else Mr. Doubty McDoubtpants? :-P

The food buff is from Omnomberry Ghosts, they average 5ish silver a pop and have 0 cooldown on the proc.

I solo in WvW because I prefer solo, but I also want to work on my WvW titles, particularly Ultimate Dominator. sPvP is in a vaccuum and has no impact whatsoever on the outside world in it’s current implementation, I don’t find that fun.

I have to disagree, With power as the main stat on Power/tough/vit, you get incredibly high power. It works VERY well with a sword/dagger build. I throw in emerald orbs and emerald jewelry (toughness/power/precision) and I now have 59% crit chance as well as an obscenely high power and still come out with over 3100 armor and 17k hp with food. I have no problem at all taking out any build from any class 1v1 and typically do just fine 1v2.

Guide I made to the build I run in WvW, the build has a pretty high skill cap and may not be best for a first build, but there is some general info that would apply to any build in it…..

http://www.ehmry.com/topic/1419-thieves-looking-for-a-survivable-wvw-build/

Most still run that glass cannon backstab build. There are a few P/D condition builds and fewer D/D condition builds. I personally run a S/D control tank thief of which I’ve only ever run into one other than myself.

Don’t nerf killshot. It’s too much fun to reflect it on noobs who actually use berserker gear rofl

No, they are simply placeholders….Every other class in the game gets 1-3 main hand and 4-5 off hand. For the thief, 3 is a combo of main and off hand. They couldn’t just give us 2 abilities without an offhand equipped for purposes in the starter area.

dreztina.4820:

Jamaz.9837:

The issue is that roaming meta is extremely broken right now since group PvP is balanced around control point holding. My engineer can bunker with bombs and bandages, but there is no build that can fulfill optimized team fights in open field.

The roaming meta is based around classes that can molest fights by resetting – Elementalists, Thieves, and Mesmers. In a true arena environment, this wouldn’t be allowed or you’d be punished for it by surrendering an objective. Have you ever dueled in WoW and had a Mage polymorph you for 20 minutes until he could win? There wasn’t any feel of competition.

I would also love roaming to be incorporated into new WvW maps to have value or have it be highly competitive, but at the moment, the class imbalances make it extremely undesirable unless you have “the” best set up. And unfortunately, unlike sPvP, you can’t switch classes at your leisure.

Ya I don’t know what to say about the resetting. In 1v1 and small scale that really isn’t a problem, but in group fights it’s easy to duck out to regen to full while your team keeps them in combat. All they’d really have to do to fix it is make you be out of combat for like 10-15 seconds before you started regenning, and that’d make you choose between healing and leaving your group outnumbered for a fairly long time.

But 1v1 and smallscale stuff is pretty solid already. Ele, mesmer, and thief are definitely the best 1v1 classes, but they’re all relatively on par, and for groups, it’s pretty much always better to use different classes rather than just running all ele or something like that.

Imo, the biggest thing holding roaming back is just the lack of space. Everything is so cramped that you can’t really pull/push for very long without more people adding in.

But still, there are good fights to be had. This was a pretty enjoyable morning for me. I lost a 1v2 to a mesmer and guard, I lost a 2v2 to a thief/ele duo that were very well coordinated, and I had a bunch of duels with a skilled thief. There are good players in wvw, and the fights can be fun, I just wish it happened more often.

Edit: Oh and just to keep the drama going, every good fight I’ve had so far in the past week and some has been with EB. Still waiting for someone from Yak’s to actually put up a fight. I watched a sword ranger duel a bit and he did pretty well, but it’s hard to excel with a ranger.

Was that thief/ele from [BP] guild? Cause we fought a 2v2 vs 2 eles that we weren’t sure we’d ever be able to take down. You guys are pro.

Vs a really skillful player I tend to not stomp, but rather ./bow and offer them a party invite to praise their prowess.

Once there is a progression system in place in WvW, these problems will likely no longer even be an issue. Even PvE’rs that I know say they’d WvW if there was some personal gain from it or some progression.

To the ele duo (one from [OG] other from [AoN]) who fought the thief/ele duo from [BP] in Yak’s Bend BL a few minutes ago………. really fun fights vs you guys, you’re really good.

~Shadowkat

I’m afraid that if it’s made so the masses can use it, we’ll lose one of our only 2 weapon sets with the barrier of entry of not having a spammable burst button; and the only one that’s direct damage based.

I like that fact that it’s nearly unplayable by all but the more experienced thieves.

It’s purpose is utility, not dps. I don’t expect everyone to understand this, but sometimes utility is more important. Having the ability to guaranteed hit and strip a boon (regeneration for instance) prevents that bunker warrior from healing up can be the difference in taking a point or not.

I would prefer it left as is, I, as well as many other more practiced players have managed to figure it out and use it effectively. Changes to it might cause the removal of its “unblockable” property, which currently makes it amazing vs shield blocking warriors.

xxxzavulonxxx.8413:

Jinks.2057:

So it seems no matter what the bad players that inhabit this game will continue to complain about thieves…..even AFTER Anet tells em to kitten off.

I love it tho all teh qq. LOL

Bad players play thieves.

Funny you should mention…….I would seriously like to see you try to play my S/D tank build with any success……not all people play thieves for an easy way out as we also have the single highest skillcap builds available. Noticeably less popular (for that very reason I’m sure), but they are there.

I run a build you’re looking for, and crit is NOT an issue (59% with stacked crit sigil ^.^)
Here is a link to the complete guide I wrote for the build….

http://www.ehmry.com/topic/1419-thieves-looking-for-a-survivable-wvw-build/

I see most of the complaining based around WvW in 1v1. Classes are balanced around sPvP for 1v1; not WvW.

WvW by it’s nature will NEVER be balanced, if you aren’t really good at your class, or a thief, don’t try to solo unless you don’t mind dying.

QQ like a sissy on the forums until ANet nerfs portals?? :-P

But seriously, use light fields and blast finishers to proc retaliation on your raid and the portal bombers blow themselves up ;-D

Pestilence.3184:

so what your saying if its only 150 points right? so why have heavy/light/medium ?? if there is no real difference?
im not looking for an arguement or anything but i been playing mmos a long time now and most (not all) most with heavy armor are killed much easier with MAGIC as the heavy armor wearers were mainly melee, so if for instance warrior vs thief came up a warrior would demolish a thief because of the lack of armor, but saying that warrior vs ele/necro/mesmer unless the warrior could some how get up close and personal would loose, also thief vs spell casters thief would win…

do you see what im saying?

THIS game is all about aesthetics, that’s why we have different armor types……

Right, easy fix. Go full on DAoC style. No more short “matches”. 3 servers permanently grouped and never reset. Once they implement the rumored progression in WvW this would make for the best PvP.

http://www.ehmry.com/topic/1419-thieves-looking-for-a-survivable-wvw-build/

Guide I wrote for a S/D tank thief in WvW.

To the [OG] ele I was fighting by redwater lowlands in YB BL at 10:15 eastern…Wow you are really good, that was turning out to be a good fight. Too bad your thief buddy had to add in on it >.<
~Shadowkat [BP]

rchu.8945:

anyone have experience with 10/30/15/15/0 build for S/D?

I ran that for a while, but found having 30 in shadow arts too important for the health regen with a S/D build.

I have more base power than berserker set does. That scales exponentially with crit/crit dmg.

Also, that is vs a glass cannon, obviously I don’t see those numbers vs enemies with some toughness in build.

0-30-30-10-0 Full Soldiers Armor/weapons. Emerald orbs in armor. Lifesteal sigil main, stacking crit sigil offhand. Emerald(knights) jewelry. Can eat a full glass 100 blades and still have over 25% hp :-P
3rd attack in auto chain crits for 4k+ vs berserker geared.
Omnomberry Ghost for food (has no CD on proc)

Just hit the hotkey twice, you don’t have to click.

Simple fix, leave as is, but prevent building of siege “x” units from the invulnerability to make it impossible to stand in the invuln and operate siege.