Guild Wars 2

Guy 1: I bought a serious RPG because that’s what I like playing, and that’s what this game was promised to be. But the additions are directly compromising this.

Guy 2: Dude, brighten up. It’s just a game, it’s just a mini-game too. Are you just anti-fun or something? Stop complaining, you don’t have to play it. Jerk.

Guy 3: How dare you! ArenaNet worked so hard on this, and all you can do is complain like an entitled child. You’re just an irrational and hateful person. This isn’t your kind of game; we don’t need you here. You’re just a GW2/ArenaNet hater, therefore anything you say is invalid.

Pretty much every thread on this. People who are annoyed because the game they bought and enjoyed because of what it was, is slowly going in a completely different direction. People who have no capacity to understand the viewpoint of the previous people and assume they’re anti-fun or just jerks. People who are the previous, except also view the game as part of their identity, and act as if you’ve insulted their religion (which you essentially have), and use straw man/ad hominem in every response.

It’d be really nice if people would try to understand where other people are coming from before insulting them and removing all chance for an actual discussion. But that’s what all game forums are now.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Alarox.4590:

So I see two perspectives here. People who like immersive RPG games, and people who have no capacity to take that seriously. At least, that’s what I saw based on the first page.

Asking what kind of game this is meant to be is a legitimate question. Is this game designed for a serious crowd of gamers, or meant for super adventure box games?

“Yes”.

Which is kind of the problem, really.

By that I guess you mean it’s in limbo between those two crowds?

If so, I agree. It seems like the original designed is exactly what the first group enjoys, while that’s been ignored and they’re trying to build the rest of the game for the second audience.

If so, it’s a good business plan.

It’s not important, but it seems like ArenaNet is trying to cover two of the large bases. The hardcore grinder who needs the carrot-on-the-stick. The casual who likes the mini-games to kill time and spends money freely on cosmetics.

Although, there’s the gamer in between the two…

So I see two perspectives here. People who like immersive RPG games, and people who have no capacity to take that seriously. At least, that’s what I saw based on the first page.

Asking what kind of game this is meant to be is a legitimate question. Is this game designed for a serious crowd of gamers, or meant for super adventure box gamers?

Because you have no Pow/Pre/Tuf gear so you can choose to only go condition, burst, or bunker. That is literally the reason. I’ll explain below.

If you go Pow/Pre/Vit for balance then you’ll still get shredded by burst. You can choose a Pre/Tuf combo or Pow/Tuf combo, but your damage will be pathetic since you lack either Pow or Pre.

Or, you can go Pow/Tuf/Vit and counter both Burst and Condition.

Basically…

Ideally you should have these 5 type of builds:
Burst (Pow/Pre/Crit)
Condition (Various) [is a wildcard since you only need 1 stat from the gear]
Vitality Balance (Pow/Pre/Vit) [beats condition, loses to burst]
Toughness Balance (Pow/Pre/Tuf) [beats burst, loses to condition]
Bunker (Pow/Tuf/Vit) [ties everything]

As it is now, you have no Toughness Balance gear. So, if you want to beat Burst then you have to go Bunker. The counter to Burst should be a balanced build with Toughness, but such a build does not exist in sPvP.

It’s almost like a 5 pronged game of rock/paper/scissors. Only problem is that Burst builds don’t have to compete with Pow/Pre/Tuf builds.

So you effectively section everyone off into Bunker, Burst, or Condition. Burst is obviously more popular, and so you have mostly Bunker/Burst and less Condition. This makes a Vitality Balance more likely to get crushed, so even more flood to the polar ends of Bunker/Burst.

Imagine if you added Pow/Pre/Tuf. Instant meta change. In WvW at least, it’s a lot different in small group encounters. You still have bunkers, bursts, condition builds, but the majority are balanced between survival and damage. You see a lot more with Pow/Pre/Tuf, making condition more popular and reducing the amount of bunker/burst together.

At least, that’s how it was when I stopped playing a month ago.

Haven’t played in a while, so question:

Is it pretty much still 10/30/30/0/0, 0/15/30/20/5, and 0/0/30/20/20 being the most common and superior builds?

Cross.6437:

This isn’t feasible from a developer’s standpoint.

This isn’t a tabletop RPG; the developers need time and resources in order to create material, more than the GM, who can fly by the seat of their pants if need be.

So, that means in order for anything to be released in a reasonable amount of time it has to be prepared ahead of time. They can’t just stop in the middle of the event to ask what people want to do, and it’s impractical to prepare for so many outcomes that may not even see the light of day.

And you can’t vote ahead of time without spoiling the event.

Moreover, different servers can’t experience different story developments, otherwise some would feel cheated by being forced into a less desirable or interesting path.

1.) During beta the developers threw out end-of-beta events like the Shatterer invading an entire zone where the players fought against an invasion where death turned you into one of the invaders. Then they turned an entire zone into an in-depth Hunger Games scenario. They have the systems in place to do things like this on relatively short notice. They have months now to casually put these kinds of events in, which could make the Living Story really feel alive.

2.) Players would effectively “vote” on what to happen next by their actions. In his example with peace/side-1/side-2 as options, the player actions would be votes to tally up.

3.) What is wrong about different servers experiencing different things? We’re adults here, I don’t see why any of us need to be protected from have a “less interesting” path. Plus, we have guesting so you can see the results on other worlds if you really want to.

That’s not a reason to make the story ENTIRELY static. It’s supposed to be a ‘living’ story, and what the OP suggests actually makes it a living story.

Vorz.7952:

Alarox.4590:

Vorz.7952:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

You know what’s better than getting the carrot only to have a slightly bigger carrot suspended in front of you? Finally getting the crap you need to actually play the game how you want to. And then proceeding to do so with the crap you got instead of it becoming outdated.

Instead of posting nonsense like above, can you please be specific and tell us what exactly in gw2 is stopping you from playing how you want to play.

His post seems pretty logical to me. If your goal is to play the game on the same level as everyone else and have fun, then vertical progression carrots go against that.

Not necessarily. Having a goal is not the same as wanting it right away in this very moment. It can be a thing for the future, something to work towards. By your logic we might as well scrap exotics too, because they can be a heavy investment for someone new to 80.

I suppose I should be more specific since I didn’t elaborate completely. A—>B is fine, even if B is better. The only problem is if B is a grind.

Grind = something you go out of your way to do (not having fun) that takes a long time to accomplish.

darkace.8925:

Alarox.4590:

I explained the scenario above, which I’m assuming he means. It doesn’t mean unable to play certain parts of the game, but instead being able to play at the maximum efficiency and not having the dilemma of grind vs fun.

To any rational human being, there is no dilemma. If something if fun, do it to your heart’s content. If something is not fun, stop doing it. If you’re doing something you don’t enjoy solely for “maximum efficiency”, then I’d argue your approach to video games is very much out of whack.

I agree completely! I’m glad we’re of the same opinion. That’s exactly why I, and the guy who posted that, and probably almost every person against Ascended gear doesn’t actually try to get them. Instead, we’re just annoyed.

Without Ascended gear we could just focus on having fun AND AT THE SAME TIME be at maximum efficiency.

With Ascended gear we can just focus on having fun BUT NOT be at maximum efficiency.

So basically, would you rather be the best you can be, or would you rather be suboptimal? Obvious. So now you understand why people are against this.

At the same time, this doesn’t add anything to the game’s enjoyment (which we’ve already concluded is the priority in playing any game).

Therefore, we can say that Ascended gear adds nothing to the game but does make the game frustrating for a number of players.

killcannon.2576:

Alarox.4590:

killcannon.2576:

You also only get exotics through specific content and it takes time. White<blue<green<orange<pink with legendary as a possible always BiS. Each one of those tiers takes longer and more effort than the previous one. Your logic dictates there should only be white gear.

Nope. My logic does not imply that only white gear should exist. All I’ve done is explain why Ascended gear is a bad idea, not why having multiple tiers is a bad idea.

Your post states that having X tier gear is “good enough”. If white tier gear is good enough, with included player skill, then no other tier or power progression need exist. You say X tier is bad because it is unnecessary, If the majority of players can complete the largest part of the game content without X tier of gear then that tier is unjustified. Therefor, by your post, exotics and masterwork are both unnecessary because, simply, they are not needed to complete the majority of content with a sufficiently skilled group.

That is not what my post says. My post is literally what I typed, nothing more and nothing less. If you’d like to know my thoughts on what you typed above then I’ll respond, but I did not state anything about that in my original post.

darkace.8925:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

You know what’s better than getting the carrot only to have a slightly bigger carrot suspended in front of you? Finally getting the crap you need to actually play the game how you want to. And then proceeding to do so with the crap you got instead of it becoming outdated.

From what part of the game are you blocked without having to grind? Go on; I’m all ears.

I explained the scenario above, which I’m assuming he means. It doesn’t mean unable to play certain parts of the game, but instead being able to play at the maximum efficiency and not having the dilemma of grind vs fun.

BrimstoneAshe.5043:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

BrimstoneAshe.5043:

So a game that had gear progression from level 1 with blue > green > rare > exotic suddenly surprises and disappoints everyone when they add one more? Makes perfect sense. Especially seeing as to how there’s that huge amount of content that requires ascended gear. Oh wait…

Yes, there’s gear progression, getting higher level higher tier gear.
But prior to this, there was no hint of the treadmill, the gradual, utterly pointless power creep of gear.
And now there’s Ascended, the first step of the treadmill.

Prior to this there was no hint of a treadmill? How can Exotic > Ascended be considered a treadmill, but Rare > Exotic not? That makes no sense to me.

It’s rather simple. Exotics require little time to get compared to Ascended. Exotics can be obtained through any playstyle; Ascended can only be obtained through niche activities.

Vorz.7952:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

You know what’s better than getting the carrot only to have a slightly bigger carrot suspended in front of you? Finally getting the crap you need to actually play the game how you want to. And then proceeding to do so with the crap you got instead of it becoming outdated.

Instead of posting nonsense like above, can you please be specific and tell us what exactly in gw2 is stopping you from playing how you want to play.

His post seems pretty logical to me. If your goal is to play the game on the same level as everyone else and have fun, then vertical progression carrots go against that.

darkace.8925:

Alarox.4590:

darkace.8925:

Alarox.4590:

He gives you 5 reasons.

No, he doesn’t. He lists five things in this game. He doesn’t give one single reason why he feels those things are grinds. His argument is weak. Hell, his argument doesn’t even exist. An argument is “A reason or set of reasons given with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea is right or wrong.” He does none of this.

I’ll help then. Will edit post below.

Revolution.6301:

1. Ascended gear grinding
2. Laundrell grinding
3. Dungeon grinding
4. Gold Grinding
5. World Event grinding

1.) I elaborated on this in my first post.

2.) Same as above.

3.) I don’t really agree with this. You don’t have to run dungeons, and even if you do you get gear relatively fast. It’s mostly for cosmetics. However, FotM did change this (but not as bad as some other things).

4.) I don’t have a problem with this, unless you’re talking about colossal farming for gold for things like Ectos. Problem is that some playstyles have to go completely out of their way while others get gold naturally and at a decent pace.

5.) Ties in to 4.

That’s all well and good, but the fact that YOU, and not TC, had to actually put forth the argument should tell you that TC has no intentions with this thread other than to start an argument of the “heated disagreement” variety (as opposed to the “civil debate” variety).

Personally, I don’t really care what the OP’s intention was. Yeah, there’s probably a chance he just wanted to post his thoughts and leave, I won’t argue. I will argue about the grind though.

Soulstar.7812:

I am 30 y old with work and school, and a horrible player. I am slow and clumsy with my character.

I have level 80 with exotics, and ascended gear… really what’s your problem?

The game isn’t hard… at all.

Who complained about the game being hard? That’s certainly an interesting argument for someone to take.

killcannon.2576:

You also only get exotics through specific content and it takes time. White<blue<green<orange<pink with legendary as a possible always BiS. Each one of those tiers takes longer and more effort than the previous one. Your logic dictates there should only be white gear.

Nope. My logic does not imply that only white gear should exist. All I’ve done is explain why Ascended gear is a bad idea, not why having multiple tiers is a bad idea.

Soulstar.7812:

Alarox.4590:

Soulstar.7812:

Grind is there, but it’s not necessary…

You ask “why the grind?”
I ask “Why are you grinding?”

Ascended gear is over-rated, and it doesn’t make you a better player.

In all, I don’t like the laurels either. The argument you are making is seriously lacking any sense, but there is point to be made.

Problem is 90% of people complaining about laurels are attacking it as if it was the core of the game, it’s not.
The REAL problem of laurels is that it’s bland content and that was proclaimed to extend the longevity of the game. Three months of events scrapped to stabilize bugs, even out the classes, and add a over-hyped “living story”. This was enough to keep most players playing, but there is a small good sized number of disappointed players growing.

Some would disagree with me, but I feel the content is only going to continue to be watered down to small events being over hyped.
If you disagree and decide to continue to play, GOOD ON YOU.
If you want to cry about laurel grind as if it were important, great find another game and be happy.

I think ANet should be fully aware of the situation at hand, and the route it’s going isn’t good. Only time will tell, Maybe I am wrong… Who knows.

Blacklight.2871:

Why do you need to have a fully geared character? I mean, aside from making farming faster. I have 11 characters, 5 80s and not one of them is in full exotics yet. Despite this, I’m not prevented from engaging in ANY kind of content or gameplay.

The idea that you have to be fully geared is nothing but an arbitrary goal set by the players themselves. If you want to focus on that to the exclusion of all else, then don’t complain about grinding. No one is forcing you to do it except you. Play the game and everything will eventually take care of itself. If you’re unable to wait for your goodies, don’t blame the game for giving you the opportunity to speed things up by grinding.

We have two possible scenarios.

1.) Exotic gear is the best. You can get it through any style of play in a reasonable amount of time.

2.) Ascended gear is the best. You can get it only through specific content, and over a long period of time. Ascended gear is X% better than Exotic.

In scenario 1 everyone wins. In scenario 2, nobody benefits while others are frustrated.

This is one of the main reasons why people don’t want this. Does nothing good, causes only problems.

Does nothing good and causes problems, you say…

I’m fine. I don’t have problems.

/yourlogic.

Call it what it really is… Your problem…
and even you can solve it a number of ways.

I thought I was pretty clear, sorry.

If it does nothing good, but negatively affects a number of people (I never said it has to be everyone), why is it in the game?

It seems you’re taking the stance that if something bad happens to someone else and does nothing good for you, them, or anyone else, you don’t mind if it happens. Actually, you would then rather argue for it rather than against or not at all? Doesn’t make sense to me.

Soulstar.7812:

Grind is there, but it’s not necessary…

You ask “why the grind?”
I ask “Why are you grinding?”

Ascended gear is over-rated, and it doesn’t make you a better player.

In all, I don’t like the laurels either. The argument you are making is seriously lacking any sense, but there is point to be made.

Problem is 90% of people complaining about laurels are attacking it as if it was the core of the game, it’s not.
The REAL problem of laurels is that it’s bland content and that was proclaimed to extend the longevity of the game. Three months of events scrapped to stabilize bugs, even out the classes, and add a over-hyped “living story”. This was enough to keep most players playing, but there is a small good sized number of disappointed players growing.

Some would disagree with me, but I feel the content is only going to continue to be watered down to small events being over hyped.
If you disagree and decide to continue to play, GOOD ON YOU.
If you want to cry about laurel grind as if it were important, great find another game and be happy.

I think ANet should be fully aware of the situation at hand, and the route it’s going isn’t good. Only time will tell, Maybe I am wrong… Who knows.

Blacklight.2871:

Why do you need to have a fully geared character? I mean, aside from making farming faster. I have 11 characters, 5 80s and not one of them is in full exotics yet. Despite this, I’m not prevented from engaging in ANY kind of content or gameplay.

The idea that you have to be fully geared is nothing but an arbitrary goal set by the players themselves. If you want to focus on that to the exclusion of all else, then don’t complain about grinding. No one is forcing you to do it except you. Play the game and everything will eventually take care of itself. If you’re unable to wait for your goodies, don’t blame the game for giving you the opportunity to speed things up by grinding.

Ema.4953:

It’s not grinding, it’s called game play. If you expect the best of everything with little to no effort what is the point? Grinding is spending months and months and months to get even the most basic of things.
Exotics, ascended etc, need you to play the game to get them and it won’t be an instant gratification deal – it will involve time to play and skill. The thing is though, you don’t need exotics or ascended if you don’t want. You can still play the game perfectly fine without them.
This game is multi-faceted. You can do a great deal of things in it all the while not needing to grind to get there. If you want to grind a dungeon/event/path/whatever, that’s your choice, it’s not compulsory.

We have two possible scenarios.

1.) Exotic gear is the best. You can get it through any style of play in a reasonable amount of time.

2.) Ascended gear is the best. You can get it only through specific content, and over a long period of time. Ascended gear is X% better than Exotic.

In scenario 1 everyone wins. In scenario 2, nobody benefits while others are frustrated.

This is one of the main reasons why people don’t want this. Does nothing good, causes only problems.

Vol.5241:

Laxuar.3504:

Dear Anet Staff

I bought this game because you promise a lot of innovative and intresting things like:

• No Grinding: but now there are 60 hours to get 80, 20 hours for exotic gear, 30 runs in fractal for ascended rings. I don’t know what do you mean with grind but 120 hours to get a full equipped character for me is quite long.

So you want the best gear in the game with zero efforts? 0 hours played?

Straw man. Good try though.

darkace.8925:

Alarox.4590:

He gives you 5 reasons.

No, he doesn’t. He lists five things in this game. He doesn’t give one single reason why he feels those things are grinds. His argument is weak. Hell, his argument doesn’t even exist. An argument is “A reason or set of reasons given with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea is right or wrong.” He does none of this.

I’ll help then. Will edit post below.

Revolution.6301:

1. Ascended gear grinding
2. Laundrell grinding
3. Dungeon grinding
4. Gold Grinding
5. World Event grinding

1.) I elaborated on this in my first post.

2.) Same as above.

3.) I don’t really agree with this. You don’t have to run dungeons, and even if you do you get gear relatively fast. It’s mostly for cosmetics. However, FotM did change this (but not as bad as some other things).

4.) I don’t have a problem with this, unless you’re talking about colossal farming for gold for things like Ectos. Problem is that some playstyles have to go completely out of their way while others get gold naturally and at a decent pace.

5.) Ties in to 4.

Simple question that wins this argument:

“How does Ascended gear make the game better for the players?” Because, honestly, there are plenty of people negatively affected by this, but I don’t see anyone who benefits.

The content itself is fine, FotM is a fun dungeon. However, you don’t need Ascended gear for FotM. Why can’t we have it without Ascended? Etc.

/thread?

zuraith.6104:

Alarox.4590:

zuraith.6104:

Alarox.4590:

“It’s not as bad as other games so it’s okay”.
“It’s not as bad as the Holocaust, so a little mass murder is okay”.

Bad argument.

Least bad at something = best at it.

Why is that a bad argument?

Someone walks up to you and slaps you 46 times. I walk up and slap you once. I’m therefore the best at not slapping you, and therefore me slapping you was okay?

That’s what you’re saying.

That depends. Are you really hot? At least 8/10?

7/10, sorry

zuraith.6104:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

zuraith.6104:

Alarox.4590:

“It’s not as bad as other games so it’s okay”.
“It’s not as bad as the Holocaust, so a little mass murder is okay”.

Bad argument.

Least bad at something = best at it.

Why is that a bad argument?

Well, first of all it’s wrong, seeing as GW1 was the least bad at it (at least before Nightfall)
And secondly, that’s not the argument his analogy puts forth. Being the least bad doesn’t mean it’s acceptable.

Are GW1 players primarily the playerbase upset by Ascended items?

I come from a huge background of MMO’s, but GW1 is not one of them. I like a fast gear grind like GW2 because I still feel like I earned my gear, but I didn’t waste weeks to get it. I couldn’t imagine a completely grind-free MMO… I wouldn’t know what to do.

GW2 is not a fast grind. Dailies every day for months to gear out one character? Exotics were fine and are described exactly how you talk about GW2. You could get them through any playstyle, but it was gradual and you felt accomplished at getting the stats you want. Then you spend time getting the skins you want and also feel accomplished.

zuraith.6104:

Alarox.4590:

“It’s not as bad as other games so it’s okay”.
“It’s not as bad as the Holocaust, so a little mass murder is okay”.

Bad argument.

Least bad at something = best at it.

Why is that a bad argument?

Someone walks up to you and slaps you 46 times. I walk up and slap you once. I’m therefore the best at not slapping you, and therefore me slapping you was okay?

That’s what you’re saying.

Heijincks.9267:

Grind? In GW2? It’s pretty kitten docile compared to the grind in 99% of other MMORPGs.

A little bit of a bad thing is still a bad thing. I can give you a ridiculous sum of analogies.

Leo Paul.1659:

Let’s just say GW2 used to be better before they introduced ascended. The sheer amount of currencies introduced for this item tier alone speaks how badly designed they are.

Exactly.

What amazes me is how people can argue in favor of Ascended gear without listing one single kitten way it makes the game better for the player.

Not one single reason. None.

“It’s not as bad as other games so it’s okay”.
“It’s not as bad as the Holocaust, so a little mass murder is okay”.

Bad argument.

Objectively speaking, you can do anything at lv 78 full Masterwork gear.

Now tell me, what % increase from one tier to the next is fine? What becomes too much? 10%? 20%? 50%? People say Ascended gear is fine because it’s only X% better than Exotics. It doesn’t matter how low the % is, it’s still a definite improvement on your character and how well you perform that, to obtain, requires long-term dedications to doing things you don’t want to do.

Do you want the game to be skill based, or skill/gear based hybrid? I, and I’m sure most people, would prefer to have their wins and losses based entirely on their skill rather than it being part skill/part gear.

BUT here’s the ultimate question. How does Ascended gear make the game better for the players? When you can answer this question reasonably, THEN you can argue in favor of it with credibility. Until then you have 0 pros and I have many cons.

It’s a legitimate topic of discussion. If you think that discussions about grind should be taboo and require your personal moderation, then you must think most topics are completely pointless and deserve the same response.

I doubt that, however, and I think people argue against even discussing this because they’re overly defensive about GW2…. I like the game too. So does the OP otherwise he wouldn’t even be posting.

That being said, grind is anything you’re somehow obligated to do that is obtained through niche and generally unfun (to the person doing them) activities. Ascended gear is a straight up objective improvement on your character that can only be obtained by doing a limited number of things, most of which the average person would rather not be doing.

In addition, Ascended gear isn’t just something you can go out of your way for a day or two to get. Ascended gear takes a large amount of time and dedication to get, so it’s not just a case of just doing things you don’t want to do. It’s a case of doing things you don’t want to do over a long period of time.

The usual argument against my above statements is that “you can do anything with exotic gear so it’s not a grind!”. Objectively speaking, you can do anything at level 78 with all masterwork items. However, you still will have a much easier time with lv 80 Exotic gear. It’s a case of whether or not you want you game to be entirely skill based or a skill/gear hybrid. I, and I would imagine most players, would prefer their wins and losses to be entirely based on their own skill level rather than part skill level/part gear level. The reason getting Exotic gear is not a grind is because you can play in any way, doing whatever you want to do, and still be able to get full Exotic gear. Events (karma), dungeons, WvW, crafting, trading post (gold), and in a reasonable amount of time.

I’d rather not have to make a new character that I don’t want and go through all those zones for the 5th time, in addition to having to spend time gearing out.

It’s a part of the game they worked hard on that a lot of people enjoyed, but we can’t replay some of those epic battles and relive the story. I would love to go back and experience the battle of claw island, or play through the final chapters to appreciate what the characters lost to finally defeat Zhaitan.

Jski.6180:

JJL.2719:

@ yramrag -No not really it doesnt branch out to another quest or have any real depth to it or story or something you learn about the person or place like a real quest would have.

So the personal story?

Basically, although Personal Story doesn’t add to world immersion, which is what a number of traditional quests did. It would be fine if dynamic event chains would cover this kind of thing, but I can only name a handful that do.

TwoBit.5903:

Traditional quests add world detail, which is very important to immersion. Hearts make and attempt at doing that, but more often than not the details can be skipped and altogether. It’s especially tempting to do this when the reward is nice juicy exp or when you’re simply trying to get through the map in a brisk pace.

I think ANet should quests into the game just for the sake of immersion. I’m not talking about those gather wolf ears quest. Something as simple as delivering an item or talking to a certain NPC would help greatly. The extrinsic rewards wouldn’t need to be that great. If its on a to do list, chances are most people will do it. It wouldn’t take much programming either, just a lot of writing.

This guy gets it. +1

(hides from moderators)

Gestankfaust.4216:

Point is…that you missed…is that there’s both. Hearts handle your rep in an area, events from NPCs handle the rest.

Sorry you want every game to be the same. This seems quite ok with me.

Holy. kitten.

I’ve been a hardcore fan of this game pre-beta… I hate games with nothing but “do X thing Y times” as an excuse for PvE content. I don’t want that in Guild Wars 2. What I do want is immersive PvE content that isn’t a large chunk of cleverly hidden “do X thing Y times”.

Where do you get that I want all games to be similar? Because I’d prefer long-running chains of Dynamic Events instead of renown hearts? Because I think renown hearts are such a poor mechanic that I would take the good kind of tradition quest over them?

Let me reiterate this so you can’t misinterpret me. There are a few options for an MMO:

1.) Pure traditional quests. This sucks minus a few great quest lines. World of Warcraft.

2.) Mostly traditional quests, some “dynamic event” type questing. The right direction, but Warhammer online showed that it’s mostly a gimmick.

3.) Equal mix of dynamic events and traditional quests. Further in the right direction; Rift showed this can be a lot of fun, but grindy quests are still a hinderance.

4.) Mostly Dynamic Events and regional “do X thing Y times” regional quests. Definitely in the right direction. Only two problems. One, you still have grindy quests which aren’t needed if you can put enough events into the game. Two, you completely eliminate traditional quests (which isn’t innately bad) but you also get rid of the FEW GOOD traditional quests that were fun. This is Guild Wars 2.

5.) The ideal. Entirely dynamic events with some long running chains that can travel across a zone, giving an equal mix of spontaneity and the feeling of heroic quests. Or, in a lesser version, 90% Dynamic Events with a few quest givers that can start said heroic quests that span a zone (although 100% dynamic events would be better).

Now do you understand the point I’m trying to make?

Gestankfaust.4216:

Alarox.4590:

Traditional quests can be “do X thing Y times”, but hearts are always “do X thing Y times”.

What you said equates to the same exact thing. Hearts “can be” anything same as traditional.

I’m sure you didn’t read what I said…but hearts aren’t supposed to be traditional quests. They are renown hearts…that’s what they are called. You gain status in the area doing them.

1.) Traditional quests can be long running chains that take you on an adventure. Renown hearts are always “do X thing Y times”. Renown hearts can never be anything but that.

2.) You don’t gain status in the area. There is no such thing as factions with actual renown.

3.) Renown hearts don’t make the game more fun. Renown hearts don’t make me more immersed (on the contrary they reduce it). Renown hearts are simply there because in alpha/closed-beta testing new players were confused on where to go because dynamic events being the main PvE content was never tried before. They were also added because (as is obvious) there aren’t enough Dynamic Events to fill up each map and keep people busy.

4.) Renown hearts are an improvement over the usual “do X thing Y times” in other MMOs. However, the game would be better off without them and instead more dynamic events (preferably long-running chains).

IMO hearts are more grindy than traditional quests.

Traditional quests can be “do X thing Y times”, but hearts are always “do X thing Y times”.

The system would be much better with Dynamic Events + the best kind of traditional quests. The immersive kind that makes you feel like you’re actually on a grand quest.

That, or the usual Dynamic Events PLUS events that actually have long-running chains.

Personal story tries to do this, but it’s not in the open world and doesn’t immerse me at all. My favorite quest chains of all time were back in vanilla WoW for the Shaman and the Druid… those were amazing.

Making Dynamic Events like these or adding traditional quests >>>>>> renown hearts. Renown hearts are not fun and are grindy as hell. To say they are fun while saying that traditional quests aren’t is essentially doublethink. This is the formula for renown hearts:

heart = (traditional quest * 3) – quest giver + karma vendor

Each heart is essentially 2-4 traditional “do X thing Y times” with a karma vendor instead of a quest giver.

How is a story supposed to be alive when the developers try their hardest to make sure nothing will ever happen without you being there?

If I’m playing a game and there are unique things happening to other players across the same world, I’m not pouting like a child complaining that if I can’t have that cookie nobody can. Instead, I’m excited to go out and see more of the world and get immersed, because then it becomes a living story.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Once upon a time, ANet designed a game where the only things people might choose to do that required time commitment were gaining a dungeon set, or a legendary weapon. Everything else in the game, and there was a lot of it, was for fun. ANet envisioned gamers choosing to do whatever they wanted because it was whatever they wanted.

Then their vision met reality, in the form of a horde of players who wanted the results as quickly and easily as possible. Said horde clamored for more, for progression, for something new to do, for more and better stuff. And so ANet realized what other MMO developers have known all along. A large percentage of players play for rewards.

You know, all that fun stuff they designed in the first place, the stuff that was supposed to be done for fun? It’s still out there. The only thing keeping people from doing it is their own choices.

Of course, all of the issues with that stuff have taken the back seat, and instead of building on that base, they’re focusing on adding as much redundancy as possible.

Some people just don’t get it. Why should anyone have to spend 30 minutes every day doing pointless little things that aren’t fun instead of things that people DO find fun, in order to not get ridiculously far behind in the new vertical progression?

How many dailies does it take to get a piece of ascended gear? 30-40 days?

Let me put this in perspective for you. For one amulet that’s 15 hours of doing things you don’t want to do for one piece of gear. And you have to do it every single day. But wait, there’s more!

Assuming you wanted to gear out in Ascendeds, that’s 205 Laurels. 205 days of 30 minutes of doing stuff you don’t want to do. That’s 103 hours of grind.

Exotics being the best was fine. Why do developers have to fix what isn’t broken?

In terms of fun, Mace/Sword seem to be lacking while Hammer is in the middle and Greatsword rampages.

Mace is slow and doesn’t have much depth. Sword is essentially 1 spam. Hammer can be used in various ways, but the auto-attack isn’t fun to use (personally). Greatsword… I don’t know anyone who doesn’t find it fun.

Sword can be fun, but often times it seems like you don’t really have to use other skills or react as 1 spam with 2 as a gap closer is so much better than most things you can do.

Incomingray.8075:

Scepter is great ranged dps in PVE when you need it(esp with full berserkers and unscathed defender), I have never used it in PVP tho

It is great single target DPS for sure, only problem is the AoE.

Gaudrath.6725:

And my guardian can kill enemies solo in PvE without getting hit once. Yeah, they get in range, which doesn’t help them much.

Each class has different mechanics. We’re supposed to be able to take the hits. We’re supposed to be right there, toe-to-toe. Ranged combat is not what Guardians are good at. Because… if they were… well, then we’d be good at everything and the world would be full of blue balls of rage.

Show me the build where the Guardian is good at everything except ranged combat.

The problem is that these things don’t immerse me into the game. The only time I was immersed in this game was my early leveling up until the conclusion of the personal story.

Because ArenaNet takes months to make simple and obvious changes but makes knee-jerk changes that break builds on a moment’s notice.

Don’t fix bugged/underpowered traits/skills. Break functional ones. Ignore OP ones. Build variety is shrinking. However, they do add some ‘flavor-of-life’ changes that are just nice to have but generally aren’t significant.

I second that ^

What troubles me the most is how negative criticism about the game is met with so much blatant hostility.

@OP with regards to your question, I don’t think I trust ArenaNet much anymore. This is two-fold I think. First, I don’t believe that they really care about what the game was originally meant to be and what we all were told it would be (and what it really started out as being). I think their direction for the game is going towards an entirely different philosophy. Secondly, I don’t believe that I can trust exactly what they claim as it often proves to be wrong in some way later on.

Peetee.9406:

I’m stupid when it comes to math so I’ll just assume your math is right.

The insignificance of stats comes from skillful play, you’re ability to dodge an attack or your opponents ability to dodge an attack more than makes up for any statistical difference.

In a perfect world the player with ascended would be 10% stronger than the player in exotics but we don’t live in a perfect world and everyone makes mistakes. I wear full exotics + 1 ascended piece and I’ve been killed 1v1 by upleveled players before, conversely I’ve also won 2v1s before as well.

That’s a great argument if we were talking about a good player vs a bad player and assuming the players are inconsistent. But what about a good player vs a good player? You can’t assume that everyone is an inconsistent player that frequently makes simple mistakes.

What they have to do is fix the problems with PvP/WvW, add more cosmetic rewards for PvE instead of vertical grind, and make crafting/open-world-PvE more useful and fun.

Too many posts to QFT; this is a thread of reason.

Guild Wars 2 doesn’t have to go down the path that almost every other MMO goes down. WvW/sPvP/Dungeons are enough. They are fun, and as long as your game is fun you don’t need grind.

If people want more progression then horizontal is enough. Things like Legendary weapons and unique skin exotics are exactly what this game needs. Instead of Ascended gear, why not completely new and unique skins? Why not add unique skins to crafting that require quests or currencies to get the recipes for? Why not add unique skins as rewards for badges of honor? Why not add cool new items like the unbreakable choir bell? These kinds of things people love to work for, especially when they can earn them by doing more of what they enjoy doing.

Add to the strengths of the game; don’t add things that take away from it’s enjoyment and what it was made to be.

Obtena.7952:

Alarox.4590:

So basically Spirit Weapons get nerfed into oblivion, ArenaNet buffs them very slightly, we eat it up and forget about how useless they are?

Called it.

Actually, to be fair, we said they would need more HP after the nerf, Anet listened and did it. That exceeds my expectation. Are they useful? They weren’t much use BEFORE the nerf.

What you are seeing here is the best way any developer can make a change; nerf THEN adjust for missing capability to ensure no period of time ingame where something in transition might be OPed or bugged. They aren’t going to avoid QQ anyways, so might as well the do the change from the bottom up. Thank you Anet.

Yeah, my point exactly. They had some usefulness before, they got nerfed into oblivion, ArenaNet makes a small adjustment that satisfies people like you without actually fixing them, and we all live happily ever after.

Danikat.8537:

Because before they added FOTM this forum was full of topics about how this game “needs” a gear treadmill/progression, cannot survive without it and it’s what “all” the “real” players want.

Seriously, you can go back and see the topics for yourself.

If you’re into PvE dungeon running and you get all the cosmetic items you want from them, then the only things to work for are Legendary weapons and unique Exotic weapons. There’s actually a lot to do there, but there’s still the issue of the old dungeons getting stale.

All they had to do was add FotM with cosmetic gear instead of Ascended. There’s your carrot. The only difference is that it’s cosmetic. Do that, add more PvE content, fix issues with PvP/WvW. IMO that’s all that should have been done instead of adding vertical progression.

Danikat.8537:

snip

Here’s the main issue:

Before: Get your exotics via dungeons/WvW/crafting/TP. You can then focus on sPvP/WvW/cosmetic-rewards. This was fine, minus a few problems which need fixing.

Now: Spend ridiculous amounts of time (cumulatively) getting Ascended gear so that you won’t be at a disadvantage in PvE/WvW and so you can participate in harder levels of FotM (basically making you grind so you can participate in the most fun dungeon in the game).

All Ascended gear has done is to add an annoyance to the game which didn’t need to be there. Why does there need to be a new tier? It helps nobody and it negatively affects everyone. It doesn’t add anything, but it adds an additional annoyance.

Ickorus.4518:

Yeah Anet, stop giving us free stuff!

If there was ever a post that encompasses why Arenanet should just totally disregard the forums, it’d be this one.

Free doesn’t make it good. The main point of recent updates has been simple: add grind to a system that didn’t have it. Things like guild missions and additions to the open world are great and improve the game, but grind for the sake of grind does not.

What does Ascended gear add to the game? Does it make the game more fun? No. What is does is artificially slow player progression instead of adding more fun things to do and more optional cosmetic progression (which people are already into and which has been proven to work).

People didn’t buy the game because they want to do dailies and farm FotM. People bought the game because they wanted to have fun and because of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35BPhT-KI1E

“In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun.”