We get it. HoT is less than two months away and you’re the one assigned to get Thief in order. No easy task, given that Thief has more accumulated issues than any other profession in the game (other than maybe Ranger; previously Necro).
That said, a lot of us appreciate straightforward communication and HONESTY. If it’s unrealistic that the team will have the time to take a deeper look at core Thief issues between now and HoT, then just SAY IT.
The reasonable amongst us prize communication—even when it’s delivering bad news—over silence. And really, the reasonable are all you should be considering in these situations… you can never please the unreasonable
I would love to see some new animations for DD, but let’s be honest… the expansion is less than two months away. Unless it’s a good preexisting animation, you shouldn’t expect any animation changes.
If we have to have recycled animations, though, I’d like to see more Monkey King elixir ones. Those generally look cooler than most profession’s staff animations.
I think that S/D will probably become the new meta in HoT, especially if there are no big changes to Thief between now and then. As is, S/D is already our second most viable spec (not that there’s a lot of competition)…
Thief sucks at both applying damaging conditions and removing them. Not sure how this is still under dispute… thieves are good at applying control conditions so I suppose people mistake that for thieves having an actual condition build.
Trickery just brings too much to the table. As it is, the max initiative increase is ridiculously good (15 initiative should really be baseline), but that’s not all you get:
+1-15% damage, depending on current Initiative (Minor)
+3 Max Initiative (Minor)
+2 Initiative on Steal (Minor)
-35% CD on Steal (Minor + Grandmaster trait)
1s Daze on Steal (Grandmaster trait)
10 seconds of Fury + Might + Swiftness on Steal for yourself and friends (Adept trait)
Strip two boons on Steal, give them and vigor to yourself and friends (Master trait)
So yeah, Trickery is a tough one to skip right now. I strongly believe the Initiative increase and Steal CDR decrease should both be made baseline, as they contribute in a vital way both to every other trait line and the general modus operandi of the Thief.
I assume SOM is the name of the physical heal skill? (looked at it, didn’t like it, forgot it’s name)
If so, I’d be interested in your reasons for choosing it over Withdraw
SoM = Signet of Malice, our heal skill that gives a small heal on hit while the signet is not on CD. It’s pretty popular for sustain in PvE, but obviously a non-starter in SPvP.
Now is exactly the time for balance adjustments, actually. Realistically speaking, this is the most developer attention we will probably receive for a couple of years. Other professions like Necro are getting core improvements along with their elite spec; why shouldn’t we? God knows we need it…
I found the original post a strong and succinct summary of the infrastructural issues facing the Thief profession. We simply don’t have the durability to make tank builds or enough application of damaging conditions to make condition builds. Every other profession gets at least decent versions of these builds, so why not Thief?
We also still need a bump in base HP, as 11k does NOT get the job done in modern SPvP.
I agree that Staff should get a smoke field on #4. You still have to take a specific dodge trait, spend 50 endurance, and commit to rolling in a specific direction to get your stealth. Sounds fine to me.
Definitely think Staff #4 should lay down a small smoke field that pulses blind (let’s say every 1s for 3s in a line). Think a mini smoke screen… perhaps that blocks the first 2-3 projectiles that hit it?
It is clear at this point that the combination of Initiative’s cooldown-less weapon skills and Shortbow #5’s spammable mobility creates limitations around what can be done with Thief on the design level.
I’d like to see them increase our core durability and mobility through trait reworks and base stat increases (HP and Initiative), freeing up space to tone down problematic weapon skills like Shortbow #5. This would open up weapon choice and build diversity.
Two example trait improvements:
Acrobatics Minor: Passive 25% movespeed (ala Chronomancer)
Shadow Arts Minor: Gain Protection for the duration of Revealed.
I’ve been thinking about what defines—or should define—the Acrobatics traitline, especially now that Daredevil seems to be Acrobatics 2.0.
I’d start by adding a minor that gives 25% movespeed like Chronomancer has. This combined with some new dodge and swiftness traits would reinforce Acrobatics as our mobility line. Do some work on Shadow Arts and maybe one other as durability lines and we could start having some actual playstyle choices!
They could further reinforce this by toning down some of our base mobility, like Shortbow #5 in particular. I say this because I think Shortbow #5 is one of the two things genuinely handicapping our profession from a design standpoint (Initiative is the other, but that’s too integral to Thief to change).
I understand why people feel that way, but let’s try and maintain that blurry line between emotion and evidence, eh? There’s nothing overt that blatantly says they’re “reselling” anything to us quite yet, even if it feels that way.
Now, if HoT hits and they haven’t done ANYTHING with our Core traits—Acro included—then we have basis for that theory.
That is true in most parts of the forum. It isn’t unique to the thieves.
Sorry, but I don’t think that’s genuinely true. Developer responses are rarer in the profession subforums than in more general ones, yes, but compare and contrast the Thief forum with the other profession forums and you will see that we have consistently gotten the least attention. You can postulate as to why that is, but it is what it is.
I do have a higher opinion of ANet than other MMO developers, which is why I’m still playing to begin with. But their treatment of Thief has never wowed me, and the Elite Spec hasn’t done anything to address my core concerns with the profession, shiny as it may be. I am trying to remain optimistic, but I can’t help but notice that the professions that’ve gotten meaningful core improvements through their elite spec feedback so far have been those attended to by Robert Gee or Roy Cronacher, not Karl McLain.
I will continue to deliver the same constructive feedback that I have been: I think the Thief profession is greatly lacking in its core competences. Whether Karl and others at ANet listen and take that feedback into account is something that remains to be seen.
I’m not a thief main, but I’ve fought thieves a ton and isn’t their low durability usually offset by their unparalleled access to stealth and superior mobility?
In a word: no. Very no.
Thief access to stealth is no longer unparalleled, and all Stealth does is help you reposition or disengage.
Subsequently, all having the best mobility and lowest durability does is let you backcap effectively, or show up to wherever people are to die quicker.
Thieves can +1, but assuming equal skill, a 1v1 is death for Thief in SPvP right now a vast majority of the time. Turns out having 11k base HP and essentially non-existent blocks, protection, and stability makes you squishy! Who knew?
They have gone on the record several times during HoT coverage to say that the plan is for more elite specs going forward, with a maximum of one chosen at a time. Specializations and Mastery Points are literally the linchpin of their plan for the future progression and customization systems of the game.
Knowing ANet though, we probably won’t see another specialization of any kind for 4-5 years, if ever
Daggerstorm is hot garbage, especially in SPvP. When an elite gets outclassed by a stolen skill bundle, you know it’s REALLY bad.
Cooldown too long, channels for too long, does too little damage for a skill that channels for that long, damage only remotely good if you’re whirling in fields (your own of which will expire long before the skill does), requires you to be in “murder me” range as the squishiest profession in the game to use in SPvP… do I really need to go on?
Yes, you can run Acro with DD and whatever else, but there’s a little concept called opportunity cost that comes into play. By having to take two trait lines to get increased survivability comparable to what other professions would have with one, we’re giving up a whole extra line of damage and/or utility to do it. This is not ideal.
Acro needs something more to make it unique and viable on its own, and Thief needs higher base durability in general. Doesn’t get much simpler than that.
People are deluding themselves if they think the Elite Specialization will magically fix Thief. There is definitely some cool stuff to mess with there (new traits and utilities mostly), but Staff and the new Heal are very mediocre atm, and MORE IMPORTANTLY, nothing has been done about our nerfed traitlines and lowest-in-the-game durability.
If that stuff is addressed between now and HoT, then great! If not, well… no amount of daredevilry will save us.
The point is, it’s been YEARS since an official response on this forum. Regardless of what they say initially, to respond at all would help people feel that they are being heard.
Still waiting on a mainhand Pistol redesign. Our ability to stack bleeds with what is supposed to be our condition weaponset is pathetic even WITH Sigils and Runes.
I’m not “falling” for anything. I am encouraged by the leaked info, but I still have grave concerns about the Thief profession. To make this elite specialization truly worthwhile, they’ll have to at least give us another round of trait revamps before HoT first.
Yes, the leaked Staff skills aren’t exactly lighting the world on fire… but some of the leaked utilities and traits are great. We finally get our first proper block, and it’s a stun break on an 8-10s CD… that can also knockdown?! That is significant.
I’m also excited with the two physical Dagger utilities. That sort of stuff is what my P/D build has wanted for a long time.
Staff is outclassed by Sword in every meaningful way right now. Upgrading Staff from 3 to 5 targets would be a good start on differentiating it and giving us something new.
Looks fun, but not OP at all. Mesmer Powerblock does everything Pulmonary does, but with the ability to crit… let’s not encourage them to tone things down even MORE.
Wait dash replaces dodge? And daredevil have 3 dodge?
“Dash” has a range of 450?? why would you need shortbow with this much mobility.
The Dash is an Adept Major AFAIK, so you’ll have to spend a point and pass on some other really nice dodge replacements.
Still, I AM curious about Dash as a mobility replacer for Shortbow. With the new 8-10s CD Physical Stunbreak, there might be room to slot in the Signet for 25% MS (or get it from Runes theoretically, but less ideal). That movespeed plus THREE bars worth of longer range dodges that also give you 8s of swiftness each (10s if running Acrobatics) sounds pretty mobile to me!
There was an incomplete (and misspelled) link in the BWE2 article, but they just edited that bit to say “as well as the thief specialization we’ll announce later this week” with no more link. Due to preparing for PAX, there’s probably no article today.
Staff will require some testing, but other than that everything looks awesome. If they can combine this with some core trait revamps—supposedly a second round is coming around HoT, but who knows—then we might have something!
I’m okay with us not having access to burning… doesn’t feel very “thiefly”. We should better at removing it, though, as being on fire obviously makes it harder to be stealthy! It would also be nice to have some more access to conditions we are supposed to be good at through design and theme.
Examples:
Blind – Okay at applying it, but less strong than it used to be, and too much of it is tied up in one weapon set.
Vulnerability – Very Thiefly and supposed to be one of “our” conditions but we suck at applying it.
Torment – We should be so much better at this. Glad to see it on one of the leaked dodge traits, at any rate.
Unless they buff Acrobatics in some meaningful ways, D/P builds will continue to skip it; the other lines simply offer too much in comparison. Acro will probably see some play with S/D, though.
If we ever do get a ninja elite spec, I’d like to see it steal mantras from mesmer. The way you precast them for an effect on demand thematically fits with the traditional ninja hand seals.
Yeah… going by the datamined traits so far, people are gonna just keep running the same stuff, although S/D will get a boost at least. Pulmonary is gonna be awesome in D/P, even if they don’t make it crittable (which it should be, as Power Block has 90% of the base damage, can crit, and can trigger other things).
